Yet More Patriot League Expansion Talk

[carney2]

Keith Groller, the Lehigh beat writer for the Morning Call (Lehigh Valley, PA) interviewed Patriot League executive director Carolyn Schlie Femovich, and she had this to say about League expansion:

"...expansion for the league 'is not urgent, but is something we're pursuing.'"

"The defining factors [for new members] will be academic quality of the institution and having a competitive Division I athletic program across the board. The key is finding the right match with an institution that values our model. Our goal is to continue the scholar-athlete model as a national brand."

"If we don't find the right marriage, then fine, we've still got solid numbers and we'll continue to go forward as we are."

Femovich says that the original thought that the expansion of the playoffs would force teams to play their allotted 11 games in an 11-week period, making it difficult to fill out the non-league portion of the schedule, is not a done deal. She says "the playoffs may just stretch deeper into December and teams would still be allowed to play their 11 games over 12 weeks." "...it looks like they may just move the FCS championship game back to after Christmas. We await a final decision."

"Femovich said the league's preference is to expand with one or two more football-playing members."

"It's a process that takes place at the presidential level." "Over the past six months we've had numerous discussions..." "By June we should know if we're going to expand or not." "...I'd say it's at least 50-50 that we'll expand, if not better."

This is for information purposes only. It is not an invitation to start that moronic "my perfect league would be" or "should Johns Hopkins move to D-I" crap.

[Fordham]

someone cue Dolly to start with "Here we go again ..."

"...expansion for the league 'is not urgent, but is something we're pursuing.'" first "ugh!" xoopsx xthumbsdownx xbangx

"The defining factors [for new members] will be academic quality of the institution and having a competitive Division I athletic program across the board" + "Femovich said the league's preference is to expand with one or two more football-playing members." = 2nd UGH! xpissedx

[Dane96]

Hello....Marist.

[bluehenbillk]

"...it looks like they may just move the FCS championship game back to after Christmas. We await a final decision."



That will do nothing but hurt Chatty, in both ticket sales and in moving it more toward obscurity.

[letsgopards04]

Hello....Marist.


I know people who go to Marist and Marist is not in the same league academically as the PL. I like RPI because they would bring what I think is a competitive athletic (there will be bumps along the way) and academic profile. RPI's existing DI hockey program may also encourage all PL teams to employ varsity hockey programs.

[danefan]

I know people who go to Marist and Marist is not in the same league academically as the PL. I like RPI because they would bring what I think is a competitive athletic (there will be bumps along the way) and academic profile. RPI's existing DI hockey program may also encourage all PL teams to employ varsity hockey programs.

Don't hold your breath for RPI.

[Dane96]

I dont disagree with you at all. However, and this is not tangential to the original post, there simply is no way in the current (and future economic climate) that a JHU, W&J, etc. would move up. The only one I see as a SLIGHT possibility is RPI...and that is very slight.

Army--I honestly see it as a sign of retreat if they moved football down. This does not, as well, speak of associate members for football, e.g. 'Nova (if the scholarship issue is addressed and the CAA splinters).

Quite frankly, there are not many choices that fit the academic profile of the PL. If the PL is truly above 50-50 on this expansion talk as she indicated, something will have to give.

VMI and Marist are going to be the top choices. Siena does not have football. Boston U, same thing and it is looking higher. Vermont...same thing. No other teams in the AE and NEC fit the profile. No team in the PFL, aside from Dayton fits the profile...and I would think they are either happy where they are or will go scholarship if a new league is formed with the disintegration (or shall I say possible) of the CAA.

[LehighFan11]

No offense, but I don't want Marist. Lets get a good program in here that can compete and push the league higher. Don't worry about academics, after all Lafayette is in this league.xwhistlex

[Dane96]

Yes...we all understand that...but the question remains:

WHO IS THE LOGICAL CHOICE(S)?

There isnt much out there....

And let's keep the smack out of here Lehigh fan.

[Franks Tanks]

No offense, but I don't want Marist. Lets get a good program in here that can compete and push the league higher. Don't worry about academics, after all Lafayette is in this league.xwhistlex

xlolx Ya ok

[Lehigh Football Nation]

This is for information purposes only. It is not an invitation to start that moronic "my perfect league would be" or "should Johns Hopkins move to D-I" crap.

carney my friend, if you took "the JHU move to D-I crap" and 4 posts, you lost! :p

I think this is a subject for my Friday LFN Water Cooler... unlike you carney, I've learned from my mistakes and not engaging the PL fans on AGS in regards to expansion... :p

[carney2]

No offense, but I don't want Marist. Lets get a good program in here that can compete and push the league higher. Don't worry about academics, after all Lafayette is in this league.xwhistlex

Cracking wise aside, you just need to wake up and smell the coffee. Those "good programs" that would be competitive and "push the league higher" just DO NOT EXIST. We've been down this road at least 100 times. Forget Villanova. Forget Richmond. Forget William & Mary. It just ain't gonna happen.

If this is the beginning of "My Dream List for Patriot League Expansion, Part 74," I'm going to make KenZ a very happy man and shoot myself.

[TheValleyRaider]

"...expansion for the league 'is not urgent, but is something we're pursuing.'"

"By June we should know if we're going to expand or not." "...I'd say it's at least 50-50 that we'll expand, if not better."

This may fall under the catagory of "reading too much into it," but that says to me that they already have a couple of schools they're considering. It also seems to say to me that they probably won't expand in the end. The part about 1 or 2 football schools really does narrow it down

Who does that leave? Well, the usual suspects: Marist, VMI, Iona maybe?

Here's your way-out-of-left-field scenario: The PL takes VMI, and then American announces they're starting a FB team. Boom, 9 FB teams, 9 for all-sports, it's a winner xnodx :p xlolx

Army is a non-starter. I don't care how bad the Cadets are, they will never, never drop down to the FCS level

[aceinthehole]

"The defining factors [for new members] will be academic quality of the institution and having a competitive Division I athletic program across the board. The key is finding the right match with an institution that values our model. Our goal is to continue the scholar-athlete model as a national brand."

"Femovich said the league's preference is to expand with one or two more football-playing members."

Carney - good stuff. Too bad everyone ignores the quotes from PL officials. We already know academics are a top priority (how we define that is a fair debate), but a COMPETATIVE D-I program WITH FOOTBALL is a clear and objective criteria. Why do some keep mentioning sub D-I programs (especially with the NCAA moritorium) and schools without football?

Here's the list:
Villanova - Ain't leaving the BE, and FB-only appears a remote possiblity.
Richmond - Ain't leaving the A-10 unless there is a major realignment, and FB-only is doubtful based on recent reports.
Furman - Are they willing to leave the SoCon for a Northern conference?
Wofford - Are they willing to leave the SoCon for a Northern conference?
VMI - Are they willing to be the Southern outpost in the PL?
Marist - Prime target, IF their academics are considered strong enough.
Dayton - Ain't leaving the A-10 unless there is a major realignment, and FB-only is doubtful based on recent reports.
Bryant - Opportunity already not taken by the PL, so its highly doubtful.
Wagner - Offers NYC market, but is the complete academic/athletic profile strong enough? (doubt it)
Sacred Heart - Improving, but a very long, long shot.
Towson - Former PL affiliate, why leave the CAA now?
Monmouth - Academics are clearly a huge question.

Again, what other choices does the PL have outside of Marist? I can't see any other REALISTIC options. I really think expansion is probably not going to happen, until a major conference realignment trickles down to mid-majors.

[gophoenix]

Carney - good stuff. Too bad everyone ignores the quotes from PL officials. We already know academics are a top priority (how we define that is a fair debate), but a COMPETATIVE D-I program WITH FOOTBALL is a clear and objective criteria. Why do some keep mentioning sub D-I programs (especially with the NCAA moritorium) and schools without football?

Here's the list:
Villanova - Ain't leaving the BE, and FB-only appears a remote possiblity.
Richmond - Ain't leaving the A-10 unless there is a major realignment, and FB-only is doubtful based on recent reports.
Furman - Are they willing to leave the SoCon for a Northern conference?
Wofford - Are they willing to leave the SoCon for a Northern conference?
VMI - Are they willing to be the Southern outpost in the PL?
Marist - Prime target, IF their academics are considered strong enough.
Dayton - Ain't leaving the A-10 unless there is a major realignment, and FB-only is doubtful based on recent reports.
Bryant - Opportunity already not taken by the PL, so its highly doubtful.
Wagner - Offers NYC market, but is the complete academic/athletic profile strong enough? (doubt it)
Sacred Heart - Improving, but a very long, long shot.
Towson - Former PL affiliate, why leave the CAA now?
Monmouth - Academics are clearly a huge question.

Again, what other choices does the PL have outside of Marist? I can't see any other REALISTIC options. I really think expansion is probably not going to happen, until a major conference realignment trickles down to mid-majors.

If you are going that far south. Why did you leave The Citadel, Howard, Hampton, Elon, Liberty and Presbyterian off your list? I think if any school was willing to leave a Southern conference it would be a school who recruits heavily in the new conference area. Elon, Liberty and Presbyterian fit that.

[TheValleyRaider]

Here's the list:
Villanova - Ain't leaving the BE, and FB-only appears a remote possiblity.
Richmond - Ain't leaving the A-10 unless there is a major realignment, and FB-only is doubtful based on recent reports.

Only plausible if this move towards expansion is coupled with the introduction of scholarships for football, and they'd be FB-only members. Now, it's possible the PL is close on the scholarship issue (fingers crossed xprayx), but, well, yeah....


VMI - Are they willing to be the Southern outpost in the PL?
Marist - Prime target, IF their academics are considered strong enough.

These seem like the top choices to me. The PL would be enough of a lateral move or improvement conference-wise, and they can fit into the League's profile the best. VMI would be the Southernmost school, but they'd get to have conference affliation with Army and Navy, and be close to Georgetown and American in DC (well, somewhat close, at least, right?)

[TheValleyRaider]

If you are going that far south. Why did you leave The Citadel, Howard, Hampton, Elon, Liberty and Presbyterian off your list? I think if any school was willing to leave a Southern conference it would be a school who recruits heavily in the new conference area. Elon, Liberty and Presbyterian fit that.

I could see Elon as a possibility (We meet again, Lembo), but Liberty seems like a nonstarter to me. Fair or not, their religious affliation is going to be considered, and I would not be surprised if that knocks them off the list entirely. Also, would Elon be willing to leave the SoCon for the Patriot League? Definately a move down in Football xconfusedx

[carney2]

READ my original post and digest what Groller and Femovich had to say:

"Over the past six months we've had numerous discussions..." There is no wiggle room here. They are already talking to at least one school.

"By June we should know if we're going to expand or not." This is moving into its final phases and "...I'd say it's at least 50-50 that we'll expand, if not better."

This is almost certainly moving forward WITHOUT football scholarships, so that automatically narrows the field for you day dreamers out there.

[letsgopards04]

I could see Elon as a possibility (We meet again, Lembo), but Liberty seems like a nonstarter to me. Fair or not, their religious affliation is going to be considered, and I would not be surprised if that knocks them off the list entirely. Also, would Elon be willing to leave the SoCon for the Patriot League? Definately a move down in Football xconfusedx

I do not disagree that Liberty's religious nature would be considered (I believe to its detriment for issues that belong on the Political Wing), Holy Cross is a Catholic school through and through. Someone correct me if I am wrong if I am overstating the Catholic-ness of HC.

[LehighFan11]

I could see Elon as a possibility (We meet again, Lembo), but Liberty seems like a nonstarter to me. Fair or not, their religious affliation is going to be considered, and I would not be surprised if that knocks them off the list entirely. Also, would Elon be willing to leave the SoCon for the Patriot League? Definately a move down in Football xconfusedx

Yea I don't understand why some of those southern schools would want to come north.

[Dane96]

Like I said, say hello to Marist.

Makes perfect sense-- adds an IMMEDIATE BOOST to the basketball league (big loss to the MAAC) and they are football without rides...and a nice little new stadium in a State that is fertile recruiting grounds for PL caliber kids both athletically and academically.

No doubt, affiliation with the PL will allow Marist to quickly ramp up the weaker education side of the equation.

[Dane96]

I do not disagree that Liberty's religious nature would be considered (I believe to its detriment for issues that belong on the Political Wing), Holy Cross is a Catholic school through and through. Someone correct me if I am wrong if I am overstating the Catholic-ness of HC.

Way...way different in the eyes of many. Not knocking Liberty, but as a CHRISTIAN SCHOOL (one whose leader was considered FAR RIGHT) it is not the same to a NE league like a CATHOLIC school.

Very different.

Again, not saying this as my own belief, but Southern Christian schools are considered BIBLE thumpers by people in the NE; Catholic schools (Fordham, HC, Siena, Niagara, etc) are not.

[letsgopards04]

Way...way different in the eyes of many. Not knocking Liberty, but as a CHRISTIAN SCHOOL (one whose leader was considered FAR RIGHT) it is not the same to a NE league like a CATHOLIC school.

Very different.

Again, not saying this as my own belief, but Southern Christian schools are considered BIBLE thumpers by people in the NE; Catholic schools (Fordham, HC, Siena, Niagara, etc) are not.

Hence its religious affiliation being seen as a detriment.

[Dane96]

Exactly- A very big one.

[bison137]

If this is the beginning of "My Dream List for Patriot League Expansion, Part 74," I'm going to make KenZ a very happy man and shoot myself.


You're not going to let him pull the trigger? xlolx

[carney2]

You're not going to let him pull the trigger? xlolx

The way this "discussion" is going, he needs to hurry.

[TheValleyRaider]

Way...way different in the eyes of many. Not knocking Liberty, but as a CHRISTIAN SCHOOL (one whose leader was considered FAR RIGHT) it is not the same to a NE league like a CATHOLIC school.

Very different.

Again, not saying this as my own belief, but Southern Christian schools are considered BIBLE thumpers by people in the NE; Catholic schools (Fordham, HC, Siena, Niagara, etc) are not.

Bingo

And Liberty (Jerry Falwell's Liberty) is the archetype of that kind of school. Let's just say, Liberty's academic reputation (not considering the numbers) is not very good amongst other schools, especially the elite ones

I should say that this is my interpretation of the situation, and not necessarily my own opinion of Liberty's academic credentials xpeacex

[Pard94]

No offense, but I don't want Marist. Lets get a good program in here that can compete and push the league higher. Don't worry about academics, after all Lafayette is in this league.xwhistlex

You mean the same Lafayette that was ranked number 51 in the country by Forbes Magazine...the same Forbes Magazine that ranked Lehigh 301. Perhaps we ought to drop Lehigh to strengthen the league. Not only can't they compete on the field anymore they're now pretty much approaching "safety school" status. Marist would be an upgrade. xnodx

[Dane96]

Keep the smack out of this. The first one was wrong-- dont follow it up.

[gophoenix]

Again, not saying this as my own belief, but Southern Christian schools are considered BIBLE thumpers by people in the NE; Catholic schools (Fordham, HC, Siena, Niagara, etc) are not.

That's funny considering the number pf NE people that come down south to private college and outnumber Southerns in schools like Wake Forest, Duke, Davidson, Elon, Richmond, Lenoir-Rhyne, Presbyterian (shall I keep going)?

There are some that fit this mold like Liberty, Campbell, Oral Roberts and Bob Jones. But those are very few.

[TheValleyRaider]

That's funny considering the number pf NE people that come down south to private college and outnumber Southerns in schools like Wake Forest, Duke, Davidson, Elon, Richmond, Lenoir-Rhyne, Presbyterian (shall I keep going)?

There are some that fit this mold like Liberty, Campbell, Oral Roberts and Bob Jones. But those are very few.

The Patriot League would likely fall over themselves to add a school like Duke or Davidson (heck, Davidson was an original member), and I can't believe they wouldn't want Richmond. Elon likely fits in that catagory as well

In this case, Dane and I were reacting specifically to the inclusion of Liberty, which is a whole different ball of wax

Of course, then you get into the difference between NE students and parents (obviously drawn in by the possibility of year-round golfing ;)), and NE academic elites xtwocentsx

EDIT: rereading Dane's post, I think he's only referring to the difference in a Northeasterner's mind between Jesuit schools (which represent a religion with which most are at least somewhat familiar) and Southern Christian colleges (which can be a very different brand of faith)

Even then, are Davidson and Duke truly "Christian" schools in the sense they are run by church members and the like? I'm here at Texas Christian, but it's not quite "Christian" anymore

[Franks Tanks]

That's funny considering the number pf NE people that come down south to private college and outnumber Southerns in schools like Wake Forest, Duke, Davidson, Elon, Richmond, Lenoir-Rhyne, Presbyterian (shall I keep going)?

There are some that fit this mold like Liberty, Campbell, Oral Roberts and Bob Jones. But those are very few.


The schools like Wake, Davidson etc. dont fit into the same category as Oral Roberts and Liberty. At Oral Roberts the students have to wear uniforms and sign peldges not drink, smoke, have sex-- you know all the fun stuff. Wake and Duke and Elon may have some sort of conduct code and may be affiliated to a church, but it really is totally different.

[Dane96]

That's funny considering the number pf NE people that come down south to private college and outnumber Southerns in schools like Wake Forest, Duke, Davidson, Elon, Richmond, Lenoir-Rhyne, Presbyterian (shall I keep going)?

There are some that fit this mold like Liberty, Campbell, Oral Roberts and Bob Jones. But those are very few.

You clearly dont understand the mind-set of many Northerners. First off, Duke is not considered a Christian school by those up-north, though its foundation clearly is. Second, you are talking about PREMIER ACADEMIC INSTITUTIONS WITH DUKE and WAKE.

Thid, and finally, how many kids from the NORTH are at these schools...COMBINED. Now, I may add, how many CHOSE THEM BECAUSE IT WAS SUNNY AND WARM? I know about Northerners going South; My cousin was the Captain of Radford's Women's hoop teams in the early 1990's...and I was recruited by some of the "bible" schools. MOST NORTHERS WHO GO SOUTH GO TO DUKE, WAKE, CLEMSON, NORTH CAROLINA, UVA, MARYLAND, etc.

They dont head to the schools you mentioned en masse. Valley Raider got my point: In the North, there is a big difference among the people regarding "Bible schools/Christian Schools" and "CATHOLIC" schools. Catholic schools are an every day way of life up here; For example, at one point St. John's had boasted they had more students of NON-CATHOLIC background than of it. Catholic schools such as Fordham, St. John's, etc...they are not considered by the public to be 'preaching' the religion.

Whether it is right or not, Southern Christian schools are seen that way...but for the few exceptions noted.

[crusader11]

Marist, really? Marist? The PL is fine as is, we should only look to expand if there is another school that is either at or above the league's academics and athletics. (Billy and Mary, Richmond, Davidson, etc.) While these schools may be long shots, there is no reason to feel the need to have schools like Wagner, Sacred Heart, Marist, and Iona. It will only hurt the league.

[LUHawker]

I know Davidson was mentioned casually a couple of times, but that is a school that would seem to be a very solid candidate. It was once part of the original PL-predecessor Colonial League but I believe left due to travel costs. With its situation in the spread-out PFL, I think they might reconsider the PL. They would help in BBall and add some numbers strength in football. Unless the PL steals Richmond away (highly doubtful), I don't see many likely candidates.

Did anyone mention Duquense (this time around)?

[CrusaderBob]

READ my original post and digest what Groller and Femovich had to say:



Not that I don't trust the Carney2's Digest (R) version of the story, but is there a link to this interview/article?

I've searched the Morning Call Web Site and I can't find it. I would like to read it in it's entirety.

And ...

FWIW -Until about 8 years ago the Elon Phoenix teams were known as the Fighting Christians!

[ToTheLeft]

Liberty is weak academically (numbers wise) and really would not be interested in going North. If VMI left the Big South, tho... with Stony Brook probably leaving in a few years, the BSC would be back down under the AQ requirements, and that would suck... so I would assume LU would then look for a new conference... But I don't think LU belongs in the PL at all... honestly, I don't know where LU would go if we left the Big South. The CAA would be the only other option and, frankly, that would just be bad for the program at this point. So let us keep our whipping boy, errr, VMI, and you guys go find another team. :)

[Franks Tanks]

Liberty is weak academically (numbers wise) and really would not be interested in going North. If VMI left the Big South, tho... with Stony Brook probably leaving in a few years, the BSC would be back down under the AQ requirements, and that would suck... so I would assume LU would then look for a new conference... But I don't think LU belongs in the PL at all... honestly, I don't know where LU would go if we left the Big South. The CAA would be the only other option and, frankly, that would just be bad for the program at this point. So let us keep our whipping boy, errr, VMI, and you guys go find another team. :)

Nobody was mentioning Liberty as a potnetial fit, no offense but Penn State would be a better fit for the PL then Liberty. Liberty has a 94.3 % acceptance rate and is a tier 4 school. We are talking Smack about Marist here. Not the mention the incredible differences in the schools. Most PL schools are liberal arts free thiniking type places. Liberty wont let their students watch Mission Impossible. Our presidents will have a cow

[DFW HOYA]

Without a clear statement on FB scholarships, the expansion list is probably left to colleges in Poughkeepsie and New Rochelle.

[ToTheLeft]

Nobody was mentioning Liberty as a potnetial fit, no offense but Penn State would be a better fit for the PL then Liberty. Liberty has a 94.3 % acceptance rate and is a tier 4 school. We are talking Smack about Marist here. Not the mention the incredible differences in the schools. Most PL schools are liberal arts free thiniking type places. Liberty wont let their students watch Mission Impossible. Our presidents will have a cow

I thought I read someone bring up LU as a potential fit, and it made me laugh a little. I understand we are weak academically... which is why I said we are weak academically. :)

And we can watch Mission Impossible! It's only R-rated movies that are of the devil. ;-)

Anyways, carry on, Yanks. xwhistlex xpeacex

[Franks Tanks]

I thought I read someone bring up LU as a potential fit, and it made me laugh a little. I understand we are weak academically... which is why I said we are weak academically. :)

And we can watch Mission Impossible! It's only R-rated movies that are of the devil. ;-)

Anyways, carry on, Yanks. xwhistlex xpeacex

xlolx Also from what I understand Liberty desires to be a very large university, such as over 30k students. That would be more then all other PL schools put together. Being in growth mode of course is a large reason behind a high acceptance rate etc.

[WildPard]

The PL would never lure one of the Southern Conference teams away-it would be a drastic step down in both football and basketball. Looking at the likely candidates, the only school that truly fits the PL profile from Georgia to Maine is Davidson, but it would only be for football. With the success of their basketball program in the Southern Conference and nationally, I don't ever see them taking that backward step. Many at Davidson would love to see them step up football to the SoCon--they're a member for every other sport, but the cost of 63 scholarships (plus the women's share) at such a small school is prohibitive.

[ToTheLeft]

xlolx Also from what I understand Liberty desires to be a very large university, such as over 30k students. That would be more then all other PL schools put together. Being in growth mode of course is a large reason behind a high acceptance rate etc.

That is correct, the long term goal is to be a large university. If we were to leave the BSC for any reason, the CAA or Independent would be our only choices.

[Franks Tanks]

The PL would never lure one of the Southern Conference teams away-it would be a drastic step down in both football and basketball. Looking at the likely candidates, the only school that truly fits the PL profile from Georgia to Maine is Davidson, but it would only be for football. With the success of their basketball program in the Southern Conference and nationally, I don't ever see them taking that backward step. Many at Davidson would love to see them step up football to the SoCon--they're a member for every other sport, but the cost of 63 scholarships (plus the women's share) at such a small school is prohibitive.

Wofford is the same size. They could be competitive in the SoCOn if they really wanted too, but I understand if they feel the ROI isnt worth it

[WildPard]

You're right, but Wofford has several advantages--the Panthers train there and contribute big time to their facilities and their owner is a Wofford grad. Wofford is actually about 500 students smaller than Davidson. Without the Panthers and Mr. Richardson--I don't really know how they do it.

[Franks Tanks]

You're right, but Wofford has several advantages--the Panthers train there and contribute big time to their facilities and their owner is a Wofford grad. Wofford is actually about 500 students smaller than Davidson. Without the Panthers and Mr. Richardson--I don't really know how they do it.


I'm sure Davidson has some rich alums that can grease the wheels xsmiley_wix. Davidson also seems to be more of a basketball school historically and of course presently.

[Pard94]

Keep the smack out of this. The first one was wrong-- dont follow it up.


I have a general rule not to let a Mountain Hawk poke me with a stick without smacking him over the head with it. Now that that is out of the way, coupled with the fact that we've been down this path no less than 876 times, I'll shut up now.

[Go...gate]

This is almost certainly moving forward WITHOUT football scholarships, so that automatically narrows the field for you day dreamers out there.

I believe you are correct, carney2, which means that the PL may be doomed to FCS "mid-major" status over the long haul. xsmhx

[Go...gate]

Nobody was mentioning Liberty as a potnetial fit, no offense but Penn State would be a better fit for the PL then Liberty. Liberty has a 94.3 % acceptance rate and is a tier 4 school. We are talking Smack about Marist here. Not the mention the incredible differences in the schools. Most PL schools are liberal arts free thiniking type places. Liberty wont let their students watch Mission Impossible. Our presidents will have a cow


Not even the version with Barbara Bain? She was hot as hell even in the repressed days of 1967-68.

[Ken_Z]

If this is the beginning of "My Dream List for Patriot League Expansion, Part 74," I'm going to make KenZ a very happy man and shoot myself.

i would love to see JHU upgrade to D1 and join the PL.:D

xanim_chaix
KenZ.......Carney

[carney2]

Not that I don't trust the Carney2's Digest (R) version of the story, but is there a link to this interview/article?

No link. Groller does a weekly "Patriot League Notebook" which is usually appended to his Thursday article on the ChickenSquawks. This week's was with his "Angry Hawks ready to stem tide" article, but the "Notebook" segment is not included in the online version. If it had I would not have gone thru all of that keyboarding to get these untrustworthy highlights into your field of vision.xsmiley_wix

[carney2]

i would love to see JHU upgrade to D1 and join the PL.

I am now officially over the edge.

[Husky Alum]

I'm thinking out of the box here, but...


Let's see, the PL may stay with non-scholarship football.

Northeastern needs to address its "football question" - which is purely driven by cost (i.e. 60 scholarships at $46K per)

Fits the geographical footprint.

Better academic choice than Marist (Which many are deeming to be the leading candidate). Top 100 USNWR school, Top 30 Business program, new academic facilities.

NU asked when it was going to leave the AE and was told "no thanks".

Maybe in today's environment we're a better choice?

[Go...gate]

I'm thinking out of the box here, but...


Let's see, the PL may stay with non-scholarship football.

Northeastern needs to address its "football question" - which is purely driven by cost (i.e. 60 scholarships at $46K per)

Fits the geographical footprint.

Better academic choice than Marist (Which many are deeming to be the leading candidate). Top 100 USNWR school, Top 30 Business program, new academic facilities.

NU asked when it was going to leave the AE and was told "no thanks".

Maybe in today's environment we're a better choice?

You think you would drop scholarships or go to, say, 30-40 scholarships?

[Dane96]

Size of school though, would seem to be a major issue.

[Dane96]

If they dropped to 40 rides (i doubt that)...better believe the league that many (including moi) believe wont happen...will; Hofstra would be the next domino...and bam...you have the pseudo-AE football league with UNH, ALBANY, MAINE, NU, HOFSTRA, etc...

Doubtful.

[aceinthehole]

If they dropped to 40 rides (i doubt that)...better believe the league that many (including moi) believes wont happen...will; Hofstra would be the next domino...and bam...you have the pseudo-AE football league with UNH, ALBANY, MAINE, NU, HOFSTRA, etc...

Doubtful.

AE football with 40 rides??? xeekx

I though UA fans were upset at the slow pace of NEC ramp up to 40 rides!!!

Sorry, this doesn't jive. None of the current CAA schools (with the exception of NU) has ever hinted at less than 63 schooly football. NU isn't steering the bus on this issue and UNH and Maine would never follow. Sorry makes no sense to me. xconfusedx

[Dane96]

That is why I said it wouldnt happen. And actually, the second part is untrue-- UNH and Maine both hinted at it a few years ago.

However, I agree it will not happen...but if NU did do it...I would think that Hofstra would be the next domino. They have been bitching internally about Olympic cost containment.

With rising gas and airfare......

Again, doubtful.

[CrusaderBob]

No link. Groller does a weekly "Patriot League Notebook" which is usually appended to his Thursday article on the ChickenSquawks. This week's was with his "Angry Hawks ready to stem tide" article, but the "Notebook" segment is not included in the online version. If it had I would not have gone thru all of that keyboarding to get these untrustworthy highlights into your field of vision.xsmiley_wix

carney,

As a Lafayette man, I know you have developed a system of values that include an understanding of personal, social, and professional responsibility, and regard education as an indispensable, life-long process.

Thank you for making the the sacrifice to indispensably educate us through your keyboarding regarding this! xsmiley_wix xbowx

BTW, never said you were untrustworthy, I simply wanted to read the whole article to pick out and perseverate on the nuances I personally found most interesting that support the expansion candidates I prefer ...

... Williams, Amherst, or Tufts! xeekx xwhistlex

[Go...gate]

That is why I said it wouldnt happen. And actually, the second part is untrue-- UNH and Maine both hinted at it a few years ago.

However, I agree it will not happen...but if NU did do it...I would think that Hofstra would be the next domino. They have been bitching internally about Olympic cost containment.

With rising gas and airfare......

Again, doubtful.

Might we see the PL this time approaching Hofstra?

[DFW HOYA]

i would love to see JHU upgrade to D1 and join the PL.:D

What's next, a government-sponsored merger with the MAAC?

The day when the likes of JHU, RPI, Gettysburg, et al. are PL candidates is the day Fordham, Georgetown, and Lehigh ought to be looking elsewhere. This is not (for now, anyway), small college football.

[TheValleyRaider]

I'm thinking out of the box here, but...


Let's see, the PL may stay with non-scholarship football.

Northeastern needs to address its "football question" - which is purely driven by cost (i.e. 60 scholarships at $46K per)

Fits the geographical footprint.

Better academic choice than Marist (Which many are deeming to be the leading candidate). Top 100 USNWR school, Top 30 Business program, new academic facilities.

NU asked when it was going to leave the AE and was told "no thanks".

Maybe in today's environment we're a better choice?

I'm sure I've asked this before, but...

Would Northeastern consider leaving the CAA? After just having joined so very recently? xconfusedx

[Jackman]

They've asked to join the Patriot before. If CAA football breaks apart, that's going to create issues for Northeastern if every northern member except Hofstra leaves. Even if it holds together, at one end you have Georgia St. playing in a NFL stadium and at the other end... Parsons Field. They have a nearly impossible to fix facilities issue, especially with the economy going down fast. Reinventing themselves as a Patriot League type institution is one escape route, and probably the least expensive one.

[98hoya]

I know Davidson was mentioned casually a couple of times, but that is a school that would seem to be a very solid candidate. It was once part of the original PL-predecessor Colonial League but I believe left due to travel costs. With its situation in the spread-out PFL, I think they might reconsider the PL. They would help in BBall and add some numbers strength in football. Unless the PL steals Richmond away (highly doubtful), I don't see many likely candidates.

Did anyone mention Duquense (this time around)?

I'm with you - I think Davidson is a natural. Aside from being in NC, their academics are PL-appropriate as is their commitment to 1-AA football.

[carney2]

carney,

Thank you for making the the sacrifice to indispensably educate us through your keyboarding regarding this! xsmiley_wix xbowx

I personally support the expansion candidates Williams, Amherst, or Tufts! xeekx xwhistlex

You're welcome.

You are driving me back into my anti-'sader mood. You're not there yet, but you are moving into KenZ-land.xnonono2x

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

That is why I said it wouldnt happen. And actually, the second part is untrue-- UNH and Maine both hinted at it a few years ago.

However, I agree it will not happen...but if NU did do it...I would think that Hofstra would be the next domino. They have been bitching internally about Olympic cost containment.

With rising gas and airfare......

Again, doubtful.

Yes, I do believe UNH hinted at it. But IIRC it was an "only if everybody else does it" type hint. And it was definitely before 2004. That would be Pre-Ricky for you newcomers. ;) Four winning seasons, four playoff bids and three trips to the Quarterfinals has completely changed the landscape in Durham IMHO.

[YaleFootballFan]

Like I said, say hello to Marist.

Makes perfect sense-- adds an IMMEDIATE BOOST to the basketball league (big loss to the MAAC) and they are football without rides...and a nice little new stadium in a State that is fertile recruiting grounds for PL caliber kids both athletically and academically.

No doubt, affiliation with the PL will allow Marist to quickly ramp up the weaker education side of the equation.

If Marist leaves the MAAC, watch for Quinnipiac to fill the void. It's been no secret that QU has been itching to leave the NEC for another conference.

[gophoenix]

You clearly dont understand the mind-set of many Northerners. First off, Duke is not considered a Christian school by those up-north, though its foundation clearly is. Second, you are talking about PREMIER ACADEMIC INSTITUTIONS WITH DUKE and WAKE.

Thid, and finally, how many kids from the NORTH are at these schools...COMBINED. Now, I may add, how many CHOSE THEM BECAUSE IT WAS SUNNY AND WARM? I know about Northerners going South; My cousin was the Captain of Radford's Women's hoop teams in the early 1990's...and I was recruited by some of the "bible" schools. MOST NORTHERS WHO GO SOUTH GO TO DUKE, WAKE, CLEMSON, NORTH CAROLINA, UVA, MARYLAND, etc.

They dont head to the schools you mentioned en masse. Valley Raider got my point: In the North, there is a big difference among the people regarding "Bible schools/Christian Schools" and "CATHOLIC" schools. Catholic schools are an every day way of life up here; For example, at one point St. John's had boasted they had more students of NON-CATHOLIC background than of it. Catholic schools such as Fordham, St. John's, etc...they are not considered by the public to be 'preaching' the religion.

Whether it is right or not, Southern Christian schools are seen that way...but for the few exceptions noted.

Ok Mr Dane, pray tell, what is a Bible school?

Also, I just want to say that most Northerners that go to the South do not go to Wake, Duke, Clemson and the other public schools. If you go to CFNC.org and look at school demographics for the state, you'll quickly see there are less Northerners at the non-PREMIER schools (which would be 4 in your case) than at the rest of the publics and all other private schools combined.

Ugh, you're just wrong and not only wrong, you're being as complete jackass about it.

[CrusaderBob]

You're welcome.

You are driving me back into my anti-'sader mood. You're not there yet, but you are moving into KenZ-land.xnonono2x


Awww C'mon man. I am seriously glad you posted the information. Why the Morning Call don't post the whole article online is beyond me. So a sincere Thanks without the attempt at humor.

Just yankin yer chain on expansion. I tend to side with your view - the choices are few and fewer (without football scholarships).

Those who are looking for a school that will elevate the PL profile, better get used to the idea that a school that will elevate it's academics through the PL is more likely than adding a school that will elevate the PL athletics.

American is a perfect example. When they joined, they were ranked about 100 in the US News National Univesity rankings. This year, they are number 83. In that respect some of the MAAC schools make most sense - Marist, Fairfield, Loyola & even Siena which cracked the top tier of Liberal Arts Colleges this year. Too bad only one of them play football!

Finally, I may prefer your anti 'Sader mood. You've been picking them a lot this year and look at the results! xsmiley_wix

[carney2]

Awww C'mon man. I am seriously glad you posted the information. Why the Morning Call don't post the whole article online is beyond me. So a sincere Thanks without the attempt at humor.

Just yankin yer chain on expansion. I tend to side with your view - the choices are few and fewer (without football scholarships).

Those who are looking for a school that will elevate the PL profile, better get used to the idea that a school that will elevate it's academics through the PL is more likely than adding a school that will elevate the PL athletics.

American is a perfect example. When they joined, they were ranked about 100 in the US News National Univesity rankings. This year, they are number 83. In that respect some of the MAAC schools make most sense - Marist, Fairfield, Loyola & even Siena which cracked the top tier of Liberal Arts Colleges this year. Too bad only one of them play football!

Finally, I may prefer your anti 'Sader mood. You've been picking them a lot this year and look at the results! xsmiley_wix

Too much agreement. Too much logic. I can't take it.

[Dane96]

Ok Mr Dane, pray tell, what is a Bible school?

Also, I just want to say that most Northerners that go to the South do not go to Wake, Duke, Clemson and the other public schools. If you go to CFNC.org and look at school demographics for the state, you'll quickly see there are less Northerners at the non-PREMIER schools (which would be 4 in your case) than at the rest of the publics and all other private schools combined.

Ugh, you're just wrong and not only wrong, you're being as complete jackass about it.

First off...your stats are completely wrong. I will explain that A) To the Monitor...the keeper of most stats regarding higher education who differ with you; and B) About 95% of the kids from NY, NJ, CT and MA who would beg to differ with you. I can guarantee you these schools are the schools of choice (in no particular order) before a Southern Christian/Catholic school: Duke, UNC, NC STATE, Maryland, Virginia, Wake Forest, Florida State, Florida, Georgia, Miami, FAU, UCF, USF, Va Tech, Clemson, Coastal Carolina, East Carolina, Towson, William and Mary, James Madison.

Some of those are stretches. Again, not to say others dont go away to schools like Elon (I have two friends that went to Elon...and I have had my fair share of good times on that campus)...but please dont tell me, someone who worked with every school above in marketing for the largest collegiate marketer in the world, the demos of Northern Students that attend these schools. You might as well call Maryland the University of College Park of NJ, NY, and Maryland...or I-95 U.

And you quote CFNC.org? First your sentence makes ZERO sense. I am not sure exactly what you are getting at. However, do you know the law behind the North Carolina acceptance system? If you do, I also refer you to the "deferred" admissions process. You see, the legislature in Norh Carolina has one of the strictest mandates of out-of-state students for public schools. So, what schools like UNC do to circumvent it (and get out-of-state tuition) is defer admissions for a "guarantee slot" for your Soph year. Now two things happens: the student says f off....or they go to a school in North Carolina, gain residency...and immediately transfer for soph year...or they go the same route...but at an out-of-state school.

My sister...got this exact letter and "help" process from UNC.


Now, I know you must understand the reference to schools that are Christian and not Catholic and how they are looked at a wee bit differently by Northerners. I am not being a dick, but telling the truth. For example, we dont have a "Bible Belt" in the North. Why are you so offended? In fact, I have had family members play sports at "CHRISTIAN" schools. Do you see the Liberty guys getting there panties in a bunch? No, the understand the difference.

If you want me to lay it out for you in a PC way: A non-christian (Muslim, Jew, whatever) from the North generally has no problems attending a Fordham or St. John's or Siena or Holy Cross. You wont see many of the same non-Christians going to Liberty or others. Not that there are none...but very few.

To further illustrate the point I will go non-PC: most of what I am talking about when explaining the difference is Evangelical Christian vs. Catholic. There are fundamental differences, though both fall under the Christian Moniker.

Is SMU similar to Holy Cross? Is Liberty similar to Fordham?

NO...so dont come in here and try to make me look like a bad person. Reasonable minds would come to the same conclusion...and I AM NOT KNOCKING A CHRISTIAN SCHOOL of any denomination.

[dgreco]

First off...your stats are completely wrong. I will explain that A) To the Monitor...the keeper of most stats regarding higher education who differ with you; and B) About 95% of the kids from NY, NJ, CT and MA who would beg to differ with you. I can guarantee you these schools are the schools of choice (in no particular order) before a Southern Christian/Catholic school: Duke, UNC, NC STATE, Maryland, Virginia, Wake Forest, Florida State, Florida, Georgia, Miami, FAU, UCF, USF, Va Tech, Clemson, Coastal Carolina, East Carolina, Towson, William and Mary, James Madison.

Some of those are stretches. Again, not to say others dont go away to schools like Elon (I have two friends that went to Elon...and I have had my fair share of good times on that campus)...but please dont tell me, someone who worked with every school above in marketing for the largest collegiate marketer in the world, the demos of Northern Students that attend these schools. You might as well call Maryland the University of College Park of NJ, NY, and Maryland...or I-95 U.

And you quote CFNC.org? First your sentence makes ZERO sense. I am not sure exactly what you are getting at. However, do you know the law behind the North Carolina acceptance system? If you do, I also refer you to the "deferred" admissions process. You see, the legislature in Norh Carolina has one of the strictest mandates of out-of-state students for public schools. So, what schools like UNC do to circumvent it (and get out-of-state tuition) is defer admissions for a "guarantee slot" for your Soph year. Now two things happens: the student says f off....or they go to a school in North Carolina, gain residency...and immediately transfer for soph year...or they go the same route...but at an out-of-state school.

My sister...got this exact letter and "help" process from UNC.


Now, I know you must understand the reference to schools that are Christian and not Catholic and how they are looked at a wee bit differently by Northerners. I am not being a dick, but telling the truth. For example, we dont have a "Bible Belt" in the North. Why are you so offended? In fact, I have had family members play sports at "CHRISTIAN" schools. Do you see the Liberty guys getting there panties in a bunch? No, the understand the difference.

If you want me to lay it out for you in a PC way: A non-christian (Muslim, Jew, whatever) from the North generally has no problems attending a Fordham or St. John's or Siena or Holy Cross. You wont see many of the same non-Christians going to Liberty or others. Not that there are none...but very few.

To further illustrate the point I will go non-PC: most of what I am talking about when explaining the difference is Evangelical Christian vs. Catholic. There are fundamental differences, though both fall under the Christian Moniker.

Is SMU similar to Holy Cross? Is Liberty similar to Fordham?

NO...so dont come in here and try to make me look like a bad person. Reasonable minds would come to the same conclusion...and I AM NOT KNOCKING A CHRISTIAN SCHOOL of any denomination.

I enjoyed times at Tri-Delta at elon :D

[Dane96]

What's that saying: Tri-Delt...everyone has.

[Dane96]

I cant even believe I responded to gophoenix; this is just one example...and I think the list is incomplete. Notice...CATHOLIC UNIVERSITIES ARE NOT ON THE LIST...AS IN ROMAN CATHOLIC.

Notice the inclusion of Gardner Webb, Liberty, and Charleston Southern.

ALABAMA
Heritage Christian University
Judson College
Southeastern Bible College
ALASKA
Alaska Bible College
Alaska Christian College
ARIZONA
Grand Canyon University
Southwestern College



ARKANSAS
Applied Life Christian College
John Brown University
Williams Baptist College
CALIFORNIA
Azusa Pacific University
Bethany University
Biola University
California Baptist University
California Christian College
Christian Heritage College
Calvary Chapel Bible College
Coastland University
Concordia University Irvine
Fresno Pacific University
Hope International University
La Sierra University
Life Pacific College
Master's College
Pacific Union College
Patten University
Point Loma Nazarene University
Shasta Bible College
San Diego Christian College
Simpson University
Summit Bible College
Trinity Life Bible College
Vanguard University
Westmont College
William Jessup University
COLORADO
Colorado Christian University
Nazarene Bible College
FLORIDA
Clearwater Christian College
Florida Christian College
Hobe Sound Bible College
Luther Rice University Palm Beach Atlantic University
Pensacola Christian College
Southeastern University
Trinity Baptist College
Warner Southern College
GEORGIA
Atlanta Christian College
Beulah Heights Bible College Covenant College
Toccoa Falls College
IDAHO
Boise Bible College
New St. Andrews College
Northwest Nazarene University
ILLINOIS
Greenville College
Judson College
Lincoln Christian College & Seminary
North Park University Olivet Nazarene University
Trinity Christian College
Trinity International University
Wheaton College


INDIANA
Anderson University
Bethel College
Crossroads Bible College
Goshen College
Grace College
Huntington University
Indiana Wesleyan University
Taylor University
IOWA
Dordt College
Faith Baptist Bible College & Seminary
Northwestern College
Vennard College
KANSAS
Barclay College
Central Christian College
Hesston College
Manhattan Christian College

MidAmerica Nazarene University
Sterling College
Tabor College
KENTUCKY
Asbury College
Barclay College
Campbellsville University
Clear Creek Baptist Bible College
Kentucky Christian University
Kentucky Mountain Bible School
Louisville Bible College
Southern Baptist theological Seminary
LOUISIANA
Louisiana College

MAINE
New England Bible College

MARYLAND
Maryland Bible College & Seminary
Washington Bible College

MASSACHUSETTS
Atlantic Union College
Eastern Nazarene College
Gordon College
MICHIGAN
Calvin College
Cornerstone University
Grace Bible College
Great Lakes Christian College
Kuyper College
Rochester College
Spring Arbor University
MINNESOTA
Bethel University
Crown College
North Central University
Northwestern College
Oak Hills Christian College
Pillsbury Baptist Bible College
MISSISSIPPI
Belhaven College
Blue Mountain College
Mississippi College

MISSOURI
Baptist Bible College
Central Bible College
Central Christian College of the Bible
College of the Ozarks
Evangel University
Missouri Baptist University
St. Louis Christian College
Southwest Baptist University
MONTANA
Montana Bible College
NEBRASKA
Grace University
Nebraska Christian College
Union College
NEW JERSEY
Somerset Christian College
NEW YORK
Davis College
Houghton College
Nyack College
Roberts Wesleyan College
NORTH CAROLINA
Carolina Bible College
Gardner-Webb University
Heritage Bible College
John Wesley College
Lenoir-Rhyne College
Montreat College
Piedmont Baptist College
Roanoke Bible College
Winston-Salem Bible College


NORTH DAKOTA
Trinity Bible College
OHIO
Bluffton University
Cedarville University
Cincinnati Christian University
Malone College
Mount Vernon Nazarene University
Ohio Christian University
Rosedale Bible College
Tri-State Bible College
OKLAHOMA
Oklahoma Baptist University
Oklahoma Christian University
Oklahoma Wesleyan University
Oral Roberts University
Hillsdale Free Will Baptist College
Mid-America Christian University
Southwestern Christian University
Southern Nazarene University
OREGON
Cascade College
Concordia University
Corban College
Eugene Bible College
George Fox University
Northwest Christian College
Warner Pacific College

PENNSYLVANIA
Baptist Bible College
Eastern University
Geneva College
Grove City College
Lancaster Bible College

Messiah College
Philadelphia Biblical University
Valley Forge Christian College
Waynesburg College
RHODE ISLAND
Zion Bible College
SOUTH CAROLINA
Bob Jones University
Charleston Southern University
Columbia International University
Erskine College
Holmes Bible College
North Greenville University
Southern Wesleyan University
SOUTH DAKOTA
University of Sioux Falls
TENNESSEE
Bryan College
Carson-Newman College
Crichton College
Crown College of the Bible
Free Will Baptist College
Johnson Bible College
King College
Lee University
Lipscomb University
Milligan College
Southern Adventist University
Tennessee Bible College
Tennessee Temple University
Trevecca Nazarene University
Union University
Williamson Christian College

TEXAS
Abilene Christian University
Concordia University
Criswell College
Dallas Baptist University
Dallas Christian College
East Texas Baptist University
Hardin-Simmons University
Houston Baptist University
Howard Payne University
Jarvis Christian College
LeTourneau University
Lubbock Christian University
Southwestern Christian College
Wayland Baptist University

VIRGINIA
Eastern Mennonite University
Liberty University
Regent University

WASHINGTON
Northwest University
Puget Sound Christian College
Seattle Pacific University
Trinity Lutheran College
Whitworth College
WEST VIRGINIA
Appalachian Bible College
WISCONSIN
Marantha Baptist Bible College
Northland Baptist Bible College

[Dane96]

CATHOLIC SCHOOLS: Notice the exclusion of Liberty, Gardner Webb, and Charleston Southern.

1. Albertus Magnus College New Haven, CT
2. Alvernia College Reading, PA
3. Alverno College Milwaukee, WI
4. Anna Maria College Paxton, MA
5. Aquinas College Grand Rapids, MI
6. Aquinas College Nashville, TN
7. Assumption College Worcester, MA
8. Assumption College for Sisters Mendham, NJ
9. Ave Maria University Ave Maria, FL
10. Avila University Kansas City, MO
11. Barry University Miami, FL
12. Bellarmine University Louisville, KY
13. Belmont Abbey College Belmont, NC
14. Benedictine College Atchison, KS
15. Benedictine University Lisle, IL
16. Boston College Chestnut Hill, MA
17. Brescia University Owensboro, KY
18. Briar Cliff University Sioux City, IA
19. Cabrini College Radnor, PA
20. Caldwell College Caldwell, NJ
21. Calumet College of Saint Joseph Whiting, IN
22. Canisius College Buffalo, NY
23. Cardinal Stritch University Milwaukee, WI
24. Carlow University Pittsburgh, PA
25. Carroll College Helena, MT
26. Catholic University of America Washington, DC
27. Chaminade University of Honolulu Honolulu, HI
28. Chestnut Hill College Philadelphia, PA
29. Christendom College Front Royal, VA
30. Christian Brothers University Memphis, TN
31. Clarke College Dubuque, IA
32. College Misericordia Dallas, PA
33. College of Mount Saint Vincent Riverdale, NY
34. College of Mount St. Joseph Cincinnati, OH
35. College of Notre Dame of Maryland Baltimore, MD
36. College of Saint Elizabeth Morristown, NJ
37. College of Saint Scholastica Duluth, MN
38. College of St. Benedict / St. John's University Saint Joseph, MN
39. College of St. Catherine Saint Paul, MN
40. College of St. Joseph Rutland, VT
41. College of St. Mary Omaha, NE
42. College of the Holy Cross Worcester, MA
43. Creighton University Omaha, NE
44. D'Youville College Buffalo, NY
45. DePaul University Chicago, IL
46. DeSales University Center Valley, PA
47. Dominican College Orangeburg, NY
48. Dominican University River Forest, IL
49. Dominican University of CA San Rafael, CA
50. Duquesne University Pittsburgh, PA
51. Edgewood College Madison, WI
52. Elms College Chicopee, MA
53. Emmanuel College Boston, MA
54. Fairfield University Fairfield, CT
55. Felician College Lodi, NJ
56. Fontbonne University Saint Louis, MO
57. Fordham University Bronx, NY
58. Franciscan University of Steubenville Steubenville, OH
59. Gannon University Erie, PA
60. Georgian Court University Lakewood, NJ
61. Gonzaga University Spokane, WA
62. Gwynedd-Mercy College Gwynedd Valley, PA
63. Hilbert College Hamburg, NY
64. Holy Cross College Notre Dame, IN
65. Holy Family University Philadelphia, PA
66. Holy Names University Oakland, CA
67. Immaculata University Immaculata, PA
68. Iona College New Rochelle, NY
69. John Carroll University University Heights, OH
70. King's College Wilkes-Barre, PA
71. La Roche College Pittsburgh, PA
72. La Salle University Philadelphia, PA
73. Le Moyne College Syracuse, NY
74. Lewis University Romeoville, IL
75. Loras College Dubuque, IA
76. Lourdes College Sylvania, OH
77. Loyola College in Maryland Baltimore, MD
78. Loyola Marymount University Los Angeles, CA
79. Loyola University Chicago Chicago, IL
80. Loyola University New Orleans New Orleans, LA
81. Madonna University Livonia, MI
82. Magdalen College Warner, NH
83. Manhattan College Riverdale, NY
84. Manor College Jenkintown, PA
85. Marian College Indianapolis, IN
86. Marian University Fond du Lac, WI
87. Marquette University Milwaukee, WI
88. Marygrove College Detroit, MI
89. Marymount College Rancho Palos Verdes, CA
90. Marymount College of Fordham University Tarrytown, NY
91. Marymount University Arlington, VA
92. Marywood University Scranton, PA
93. Mercy College of Northwest Ohio Toledo, OH
94. Mercyhurst College Erie, PA
95. Merrimack College North Andover, MA
96. Molloy College Rockville Centre, NY
97. Mount Aloysius College Cresson, PA
98. Mount Carmel College of Nursing Columbus, OH
99. Mount Marty College Yankton, SD
100. Mount Mary College Milwaukee, WI
101. Mount Mercy College Cedar Rapids, IA
102. Mount Saint Mary College Newburgh, NY
103. Mount St. Mary's College Los Angeles, CA
104. Mount St. Mary's University Emmitsburg, MD
105. Neumann College Aston, PA
106. Newman University Wichita, KS
107. Niagara University Niagara University, NY
108. Notre Dame College Cleveland, OH
109. Notre Dame de Namur University Belmont, CA
110. Ohio Dominican University Columbus, OH
111. Our Lady of the Lake University San Antonio, TX
112. Providence College Providence, RI
113. Quincy University Quincy, IL
114. Regis College Weston, MA
115. Regis University Denver, CO
116. Rivier College Nashua, NH
117. Rockhurst University Kansas City, MO
118. Rosemont College Rosemont, PA
119. Sacred Heart University Fairfield, CT
120. Saint Anselm College Manchester, NH
121. Saint Francis University Loretto, PA
122. Saint Gregory's University Shawnee, OK
123. Saint Joseph College West Hartford, CT
124. Saint Joseph's College Rensselaer, IN
125. Saint Joseph's College of Maine Standish, ME
126. Saint Joseph's University Philadelphia, PA
127. Saint Leo University Saint Leo, FL
128. Saint Louis University St. Louis, MO
129. Saint Martin's University Olympia, WA
130. Saint Mary-of-the-Woods College Saint Mary-of-the-Woods, IN
131. Saint Mary's College Notre Dame, IN
132. Saint Mary's College of California Moraga, CA
133. Saint Mary's University of Minnesota Winona, MN
134. Saint Michael's College Colchester, VT
135. Saint Peter's College Jersey City, NJ
136. Saint Vincent College Latrobe, PA
137. Saint Xavier University Chicago, IL
138. Salve Regina University Newport, RI
139. Santa Clara University Santa Clara, CA
140. Seattle University Seattle, WA
141. Seton Hall University South Orange, NJ
142. Seton Hill University Greensburg, PA
143. Siena College Loudonville, NY
144. Silver Lake College Manitowoc, WI
145. Southern Catholic College Dawsonville, GA
146. Spring Hill College Mobile, AL
147. St. Ambrose University Davenport, IA
148. St. Bonaventure University St. Bonaventure, NY
149. St. Edward's University Austin, TX
150. St. John Fisher College Rochester, NY
151. St. John's University Queens, NY
152. St. John's University/College of St. Benedict Saint Joseph, MN
153. St. Joseph's College Brooklyn, NY
154. St. Mary's University of San Antonio San Antonio, TX
155. St. Norbert College De Pere, WI
156. St. Thomas Aquinas College Sparkill, NY
157. St. Thomas University Miami, FL
158. St. Thomas University Fredericton, CANADA,
159. Stonehill College Easton, MA
160. The College of New Rochelle New Rochelle, NY
161. The Thomas More College of Liberal Arts Merrimack, NH
162. Thomas Aquinas College Santa Paula, CA
163. Thomas More College Crestview Hills, KY
164. University of Dallas Irving, TX
165. University of Dayton Dayton, OH
166. University of Detroit Mercy Detroit, MI
167. University of Great Falls Great Falls, MT
168. University of Mary Bismarck, ND
169. University of Notre Dame Notre Dame, IN
170. University of Portland Portland, OR
171. University of Saint Francis Fort Wayne, IN
172. University of San Diego San Diego, CA
173. University of San Francisco San Francisco, CA
174. University of Scranton Scranton, PA
175. University of St. Francis Joliet, IL
176. University of St. Thomas Saint Paul, MN
177. University of St. Thomas Houston, TX
178. University of the Incarnate Word San Antonio, TX
179. Ursuline College Pepper Pike, OH
180. Villanova University Villanova, PA
181. Viterbo University LaCrosse, WI
182. Walsh University North Canton, OH
183. Wheeling Jesuit University Wheeling, WV
184. Wyoming Catholic College Lander, WY
185. Xavier University Cincinnati, OH
186. Xavier University of Louisiana New Orleans, LA

[Dane96]

CASE CLOSED WITH THE ABOVE EVIDENCE!

BTW, I think Marist eventually would be a good fit for the PL. They are better positioned than American was when you let them in.

[Maroon&White]

What was the case about? xconfusedx

[crusader11]

American was a mistake and still is a mistake. They came into the PL because the league needed an 8th team so it could be eligible to get the auto-bid. I can only hope the PL would not have a school like Marist, with its mediocre academic reputastion at best, to join the PL.

[Dane96]

What was the case about? xconfusedx

About gophoenix calling me a dick basically because he felt there is no difference between a Christian University and a Catholic University (for example, Palm Beach Atlantic and Niagara). Christian, the main umbrella the covers Catholic, Luthern, Protestant, etc. is what I think he was attaching the "Christian University" to.

There is, however a major difference...and they are even listed seperately.

He also told me I dont know where my friends went to school down South...and the average Northerner who heads south goes to.

[Dane96]

American was a mistake and still is a mistake. They came into the PL because the league needed an 8th team so it could be eligible to get the auto-bid. I can only hope the PL would not have a school like Marist, with its mediocre academic reputastion at best, to join the PL.

Fair enough...hey it is your league; I feel the same about Quinnipiac with the America East, though I think Marist is better academically.

Let me ask you this though: with the precarious situation of PL football regarding scholarships and possible conference shifting, would taking on a school who may not be the caliber of the chunk of the PL (but not horrible) be the right choice to stabilize the league?

[ngineer]

American was a mistake and still is a mistake. They came into the PL because the league needed an 8th team so it could be eligible to get the auto-bid. I can only hope the PL would not have a school like Marist, with its mediocre academic reputastion at best, to join the PL.

xconfusedx Since American does not play football how did their entry into the PL result in the auto-bid??
They balanced out the league for basketball ball when Fordham left, but I don't see the correlation with football.

[crusader11]

xconfusedx Since American does not play football how did their entry into the PL result in the auto-bid??
They balanced out the league for basketball ball when Fordham left, but I don't see the correlation with football.

I was referencing the auto-bid for basketball, not football. Sorry for the confusion.

[Go...gate]

I believe it is easy to trash American but not necessarily deserved. They wanted in as part of a bigger institutional development plan, backed by the university's existing resources and endowment and augmented by donors to raise the academic profile of their school, which was already pretty good. They saw themselves as more of a national (indeed, international) university which was highly selective. Their plan has succeeded to a substantial degree. Marist could, concievably, do the same thing, but their resources, endowment and donors are not comparable at this time with the other schools in the Patriot League (and may not be for some time given the meltdown in the financial markets).

IMO, Northeastern, VMI and Hofstra make sense, with Marist also in there dependent on their financial situation. Personally, I would like Gettysburg, but that is not going to happen.

[JD51]

American was a mistake and still is a mistake. They came into the PL because the league needed an 8th team so it could be eligible to get the auto-bid. I can only hope the PL would not have a school like Marist, with its mediocre academic reputastion at best, to join the PL.

True, if I had gone to a school with stronger academics I might not have missed the ”s” in reputation. So much for sounding it out. ;)

Seriously though, I see your point. I can honestly say that had I gone to HC, Lehigh, Colgate, et al; I would not be so welcoming of a school that did not have the same academic and athletic reputation as my alma mater. Every school has its good and its bad and in looking at the mean statistics Marist simply does not have comparable numbers to PL schools. You can argue the pros of a good geographic fit and football sponsorship and the cons of a small endowment and perceived small mindedness of the students until your blue in the face. Ultimately it comes down to what criteria are most important to the PL member schools.

My reasons for seeing Marist added are self-centered. It potentially raises the academic and athletic profile of the school simply through association. It would increase alumni giving and help with recruitment. The benefits to the PL are not as evident. The conference gets another school sponsoring football and consistently ranked women’s basketball team, but little else for the time being. I personally get the added benefit of suffering the slings and arrows of representing the academic and athletic runt of the litter on the AGS forum for years to come.

[maacfb]

im in the same boat as you JD. if I was a PL grad I wouldnt be in favor of marist given that its below the PL schools academically and besides geography, bball, and a couple other sports doesnt bring a lot to the table.
on the plus side the school is definitely committed to increasing its academic profile and has succeeded in doing so recently. I see no reason why this trend cannot continue, an association with the PL only speeds up the process. the new leonidoff field will help recruiting across the board and if the college made the commitment to a grant in aid policy similar to the PL they would be able to bring in much better kids. even if the PL isnt realistic right now there are good things happening at the school that will allow the football program to improve.

[TheValleyRaider]

True, if I had gone to a school with stronger academics I might not have missed the ”s” in reputation. So much for sounding it out. ;)

Seriously though, I see your point. I can honestly say that had I gone to HC, Lehigh, Colgate, et al; I would not be so welcoming of a school that did not have the same academic and athletic reputation as my alma mater. Every school has its good and its bad and in looking at the mean statistics Marist simply does not have comparable numbers to PL schools. You can argue the pros of a good geographic fit and football sponsorship and the cons of a small endowment and perceived small mindedness of the students until your blue in the face. Ultimately it comes down to what criteria are most important to the PL member schools.

My reasons for seeing Marist added are self-centered. It potentially raises the academic and athletic profile of the school simply through association. It would increase alumni giving and help with recruitment. The benefits to the PL are not as evident. The conference gets another school sponsoring football and consistently ranked women’s basketball team, but little else for the time being. I personally get the added benefit of suffering the slings and arrows of representing the academic and athletic runt of the litter on the AGS forum for years to come.

I for one would welcome Marist to the PL, provided they are willing to spend the money on their program in order to be competitive. It may take awhile to get there. As for benefits the PL, I think Marist raises our overall athletic profile, and especially does so in Basketball. But I'm also a Poughkeepsie native, so my motives for wanting Marist are mildly personal as well :D

As for your status as the academic runt, we won't give you a hard time....until you start winning ;)

[JD51]

As for your status as the academic runt, we won't give you a hard time....until you start winning ;)

Winning? That'd be an interesting feeling. I won't be holding my breath. xbawlingx

[DFW HOYA]

I believe it is easy to trash American but not necessarily deserved. They wanted in as part of a bigger plan, backed by the university's existing resources, endowment and donors to raise the academic profile of their school, which was already pretty good. They saw themselves as more of a national (indeed, international) university which was highly selective.

If the PL was part of a bigger athletics plan at AU, I haven't seen it.

American was increasingly non-competitive in the CAA at the time they made the move and was among the last of the private schools in what was the old ECAC-South. And while the NEC or even the MAAC might have been a more likely fit, AU went to the Patriot League with a square peg (no football, full scholarship sports, a perceived second tier academic reputation) and found its way into the round hole. At the same time Richmond was on the move from the CAA and there was movement in America East with Hofstra and Towson, the PL decided that American was a good fit....and in the last three years, AU has finished 6th, 7th, and 6th in the eight team President's Club (all-sports) poll.

http://patriotleague.cstv.com/school-bio/patr-school-bio-presidents-cup.html

[TheValleyRaider]

Winning? That'd be an interesting feeling. I won't be holding my breath. xbawlingx

Well, your Men's Basketball team would be in the League's top tier

And your Women's team would be the top tier

So you'd have that going for you, which is nice

[maacfb]

think he is talking football......xbawlingx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

American clearly wanted to be a part of the Patriot League 'clique' and the former president was willing to lavish a lot of money to do so. It was a match in the sense that American was throwing money around and desperately wanted to "hobnob" with Ivy-caliber schools; and the Patriot League was desperate for members, especially in basketball.

You'll note 'football' never entered into the discussion.

I think both parties made out in the arrangement: American gave the PL presence in DC in basketball, kept the league together, and American got a boost in academic prestige - and (I believe; this can be verified elsewhere) a massive increase in endowment. Win-win, priciples of "academic purity" be gosh-darned. ;)

[Go...gate]

If the PL was part of a bigger athletics plan at AU, I haven't seen it.

American was increasingly non-competitive in the CAA at the time they made the move and was among the last of the private schools in what was the old ECAC-South. And while the NEC or even the MAAC might have been a more likely fit, AU went to the Patriot League with a square peg (no football, full scholarship sports, a perceived second tier academic reputation) and found its way into the round hole. At the same time Richmond was on the move from the CAA and there was movement in America East with Hofstra and Towson, the PL decided that American was a good fit....and in the last three years, AU has finished 6th, 7th, and 6th in the eight team President's Club (all-sports) poll.

http://patriotleague.cstv.com/school-bio/patr-school-bio-presidents-cup.html

I am sorry if I was not clear. AU's plan wasn't with athletics in mind - it was with raising the academic profile and they liked the PL model. I believe this was published someplace back in the day. Certainly Bro Adams, Bucknell's president at the time who spearheaded the move, made this clear in persuading the other PL presidents.

[Go...gate]

American clearly wanted to be a part of the Patriot League 'clique' and the former president was willing to lavish a lot of money to do so. It was a match in the sense that American was throwing money around and desperately wanted to "hobnob" with Ivy-caliber schools; and the Patriot League was desperate for members, especially in basketball.

You'll note 'football' never entered into the discussion.

I think both parties made out in the arrangement: American gave the PL presence in DC in basketball, kept the league together, and American got a boost in academic prestige - and (I believe; this can be verified elsewhere) a massive increase in endowment. Win-win, priciples of "academic purity" be gosh-darned. ;)

I believe you are correct, LFN.

[DFW HOYA]

I think both parties made out in the arrangement: American gave the PL presence in DC in basketball, kept the league together, and American got a boost in academic prestige - and (I believe; this can be verified elsewhere) a massive increase in endowment. Win-win, priciples of "academic purity" be gosh-darned. ;)


AU's endowment has increased by nine-fold in the last 15 years but it remains at the back of the PL pack, as well as the smallest by student FTE by a considerable margin:

Lehigh ($1,086M, 2007)
Lafayette ($734M)
Colgate ($709M)
Holy Cross ($658 M)
Bucknell ($599M)
American ($396M)

And for Marist?
http://education.yahoo.com/college/facts/7322.html

[aceinthehole]

im in the same boat as you JD. if I was a PL grad I wouldnt be in favor of marist given that its below the PL schools academically and besides geography, bball, and a couple other sports doesnt bring a lot to the table.
on the plus side the school is definitely committed to increasing its academic profile and has succeeded in doing so recently. I see no reason why this trend cannot continue, an association with the PL only speeds up the process. the new leonidoff field will help recruiting across the board and if the college made the commitment to a grant in aid policy similar to the PL they would be able to bring in much better kids. even if the PL isnt realistic right now there are good things happening at the school that will allow the football program to improve.

Um, this is my point ... Marist has EVERYTHING the PL needs, but academics. Its the difference between a half-full and half-empty opinion on Marist's credentials.

Listen, I'm not a PL fan or alum, so I have no horse in this race, but if the PL (an intercollegiate ATHLETIC conference) is looking for an expansion member, it seems Marist is the most logical (and probable) choice. If they are looking for something else, they may not be the best choice.

I understand the academic argument from PL fans, but as the AU example indicates, sometimes you have to do something that might not be ideal.

Outside of "academics" what does Marist lack in criteria for the PL?

And knowing that AU made some improvements since getting the PL invite, what is Marist's potential compared to AU?

[crusader11]

22 million dollars is ridiculously low for an endowment. My high school's endowment was much bigger than that. Also, the fact that they accept half of the applicants is very high. Please Marist, stay clear from the Patriot League.

[Jackman]

Are there objections to Northeastern other than the disparity in total enrollment?

[Go...gate]

Are there objections to Northeastern other than the disparity in total enrollment?

I never even knew this was an issue. It certainly did not keep NE from playing pretty much everyone in New England, From Tufts, Colby and Central Connecticut to UMass, American International, BC and Harvard over the years.

[JD51]

22 million dollars is ridiculously low for an endowment. My high school's endowment was much bigger than that. Also, the fact that they accept half of the applicants is very high. Please Marist, stay clear from the Patriot League.

Obviously it’s not a decision we’re going to impact, but the barbarians are knocking on the gates of the empire.

[Go...gate]

If Marist is going to pursue a program of institutional "upward mobility" as American did, I could see them as a member. But you can't move far upstream without a bigger endowment. Colgate had to face that after WWII and has only in recent years gotten their endowment into a competitive position relative to schools its size.

[Dane96]

Size was an issue with Northeastern.

[JD51]

Very true. As was pointed out 22m is tiny by comparison. Even if the goals of the current capital campaign underway are met, there will still be a huge disparity in endowments.

[Go...gate]

Do you think Marist can break 100M in endowment after this new capital campaign? It may be tough in this economic climate.

[DFW HOYA]

Do you think Marist can break 100M in endowment after this new capital campaign? It may be tough in this economic climate.

To quote the late John Vernon (National Lampoon's Animal House): "Zero... point... zero."

Why? The $75 million is not all for capital gifts, and maybe 10-15% of the total may be actually endowment related. For example, facilities don't count.

[dgreco]

still don't know why PL passed on Bryant. I still think maybe Bentley could be a serious option. They have made a lot of strides and in 2011 I think they might be an option. That isn't a now move though.

[Dane96]

Bentley? Academics are not all that they portray...and NOWHERE NEAR PL levels.

Good little regional school...that is it.

[JD51]

Do you think Marist can break 100M in endowment after this new capital campaign? It may be tough in this economic climate.

Doubtful. A significant portion will be for the construction of a new academic building. The rest, I assume, will go toward the endowment. It should have happened years ago.

[Husky Alum]

still don't know why PL passed on Bryant. I still think maybe Bentley could be a serious option. They have made a lot of strides and in 2011 I think they might be an option. That isn't a now move though.

Bentley is a one trick pony. It's a business school - a good one at that, but nothing more than that. They produce good accountants and finance people, but not much else.

They did just get approval to become "Bentley University" - that's a step in increasing their profile nationally.

[Navonod]

22 million dollars is ridiculously low for an endowment. My high school's endowment was much bigger than that. Also, the fact that they accept half of the applicants is very high. Please Marist, stay clear from the Patriot League.

Not to worry. Marist has already joined the Pioneer League.

http://www.pioneer-football.org/pfl/


The 2008 season marks the 16th year for the Pioneer Football League – the nation’s only non-scholarship NCAA Football Championship Subdivision conference.

The league will expand to nine members in 2008 with Campbell University joining the league’s ranks in its first season of intercollegiate football. The PFL will expand again in 2009 as Marist College will begin conference play. In addition, the Pioneer Football League will participate for the third consecutive year in the Gridiron Classic, a postseason championship game which pits the PFL champion against the Northeast Conference champion.