Someone Please Get Hank Steinbrenner Some Tissues

[UNHWildCats]

http://redsox.travisliles.com/2008/09/hanky-stein-crying-over-yankees-missing.html

[DSUrocks07]

http://redsox.travisliles.com/2008/09/hanky-stein-crying-over-yankees-missing.html

This happens every year. "I hate the wild card format.......when we don't win it" xlolx

[JoltinJoe]

Let's get some facts straight here.

No Yankee championshp is tainted by steroid use. If you read the Mitchell Report, virtually all the members of the team identified as using steroids used them after leaving the Yankees or after the 2000 season, or were minor role players or reserves. Most of the players were role players, like Glenallen Hill. The notable exception is Roger Clemens, who was a marginal contributor to the 1999 and 2000 teams, and who had stopped using steroids for a period of time in 1999 and 2000 after arriving in New York (curious that his period of non-steroid use with the Yankees resulted in pretty mediocre first two seasons in New York, after winning two straight Cy Youngs with Toronto and another Cy Young Award in 2001, when he was back on the juice.) Anyway, read the report and get your facts straight.

The first championship team to have a clear, notable steroid user on the team as a key contributor was the 2001 Diamondbacks (Luis Gonzalez). Plainly the 2004 and 2007 Red Sox teams had many steroid users, even though Red Sox Director George Mitchell looked the other way. It is almost laughable to deny that the 2003 and 2004 Red Sox, the most potent offensive teams in history playing in the most potent offensive period in history, during which steroid use was rampant, were not helped by steroid use. It is curious that so many players on those teams went into rapid decline (Varitek) or into a Giambi-like injury pattern (Ortiz).

Here are the nine players on the 2000 Yankees named in the report:
Jose Canseco (late-season pick-up, one AB in WS)
Roger Clemens (marginal 2000 season; started using steroids again full time in 2001);
Jason Grimsley (rarely used; no WS appearance, pithched 2 innings in ALCS)
Glenallen Hill (reserve, 0-3 in WS; said to have started steroids post 2000),
Dave Justice (3-19 in WS; said to have used steroids infrequently starting sometime in 2001, as career went into decline, no help)
Chuck Knoblauch,said to have used steroids infrequently starting sometime in 2001, as career went into decline, no help)
Denny Neagle (steroid use started after leaving Yankees; was awful with Yankees and pitched on 4 2/3 of his start in WS).,
Andy Pettitte (HGH use twice post 2001);
Mike Stanton (started using steroid in 2003, with Mets).

[Col Hogan]

Counselor, where is your evidence...you bring us hearsay and inuendo...if you have nothing else, I'll have to ask that you comments be stricken from the record....

















Did I do it correctly, joe???xlmaox. xlmaox

[JoltinJoe]

Counselor, where is your evidence...you bring us hearsay and inuendo...if you have nothing else, I'll have to ask that you comments be stricken from the record....

















Did I do it correctly, joe???xlmaox. xlmaox

Col. Hogan, That is a lucid, intelligent, well-thought out objection.

Overruled.

http://www.jonathanlynn.com/images/gallery/vinny5.jpg

Besides, I have a video of a 2002 game between the Twin and the Yankees, broadcast on Yankees Classics) in which David Ortiz is skinnier than Keira Knightley.

[Col Hogan]

On a serious note, the Mitchell Report most likely uncovered only a part of the problem...to argue one team was clean and one wasn't, IMHO, is putting on homer blinders...

The entire era...all records...all championships...all tainted because of the stupid positions taken by MLB and th MLBPA...

[GannonFan]

On a serious note, the Mitchell Report most likely uncovered only a part of the problem...to argue one team was clean and one wasn't, IMHO, is putting on homer blinders...

The entire era...all records...all championships...all tainted because of the stupid positions taken by MLB and th MLBPA...

Agreed. Heck, Lennie Dysktra was clearly on the juice in '93, people even commented on it at Spring Training that year. There's pretty much no doubt at all that every team in some way shape or form was tainted by the juice through the 90's and the early 00's. Ridiculous that anyone would try to argue that their team was the only team not affected.

[JoltinJoe]

There's pretty much no doubt at all that every team in some way shape or form was tainted by the juice through the 90's and the early 00's. Ridiculous that anyone would try to argue that their team was the only team not affected.

What's your proof? Steroids might have been a problem in some places prior to 1998, but it was McGuire/Sosa that got more people juicing. Even Barry Bonds's involvement was initiated by what Sosa/McGuire did in 1998.

Look at the 1998 Yankees, which won 125 games. No real juicing on that team. The Yankees of that era didn't have a steroid problem.

To the extent the problem came to New York, it came with Roger Clemens in 1999. And then, after two mediocre seasons, Clemens convinced the Yankees to hire Brian McNamee as a trainer, claiming that McNamee's training routine would bring him back to Cy Young form. And it did. Clemens won 20 games in 2001.

But your statement that all teams through the 1990s were affected is unfounded and false.

[bulldog10jw]

Let's get some facts straight here.

No Yankee championshp is tainted by steroid use. If you read the Mitchell Report, virtually all the members of the team identified as using steroids used them after leaving the Yankees or after the 2000 season, or were minor role players or reserves. Most of the players were role players, like Glenallen Hill. The notable exception is Roger Clemens, who was a marginal contributor to the 1999 and 2000 teams, and who had stopped using steroids for a period of time in 1999 and 2000 after arriving in New York (curious that his period of non-steroid use with the Yankees resulted in pretty mediocre first two seasons in New York, after winning two straight Cy Youngs with Toronto and another Cy Young Award in 2001, when he was back on the juice.) Anyway, read the report and get your facts straight.

The first championship team to have a clear, notable steroid user on the team as a key contributor was the 2001 Diamondbacks (Luis Gonzalez).

He sure didn't look like all the other steroid users. xconfusedx

[JoltinJoe]

He sure didn't look like all the other steroid users. xconfusedx

For one season, the guy is Jimmy Foxx?xeekx

[bulldog10jw]

For one season, the guy is Jimmy Foxx?xeekx

Ditto Roger Maris, except for one season he was Babe Ruth.

[Grizalltheway]

For one season, the guy is Mel Ott?xeekx

Did he ever fail a drug test? Was he ever questioned about it by Congress? Is there any actual evidence that suggests he used steroids on a regular basis (other than getting the Series winning hit against the Yanks)?

[JoltinJoe]

Ditto Roger Maris, except for one season he was Babe Ruth.

Maris had back-to-back MVP seasons. Plus, in 1961, he saw a lot of good pitches because he was hitting in front of Mickey Mantle, at a point in Mantle's career when perhaps only Babe Ruth was a better ballplayer in all of baseball history.

Maris also suffered injuries in the early 1960s which curtailed his productivity and brought his career to a premature end. People who saw Maris at his short peak said he was simply one of the greatest baseball talents ever. He would have been a no-brainer first ballot guy if he had stayed healthy.


On the other hand, there is no rational explanation for what Gonzalez did in 2001. The guy was just not a 57 HR guy.

[bulldog10jw]

Maris had back-to-back MVP seasons. Plus, in 1961, he saw a lot of good pitches because he was hitting in front of Mickey Mantle, at a point in Mantle's career when perhaps only Babe Ruth was a better ballplayer in all of baseball history.

Maris also suffered injuries in the early 1960s which curtailed his productivity and brought his career to a premature end. People who saw Maris at his short peak said he was simply one of the greatest baseball talents ever. He would have been a no-brainer first ballot guy if he had stayed healthy.


On the other hand, there is no rational explanation for what Gonzalez did in 2001. The guy was just not a 57 HR guy.

Wasn't he hitting in front of Mantle in 1960 and 1962. I think it went 39 homers ...61...33 and downhill from there to being a spray hitter for the Cards. Career years happen.

Not that Gonzalez WASN'T on steroids, maybe he was, but he sure didn't look like any of the other users.

I used my memory for Rogers numbers, I could be off.

[JoltinJoe]

Wasn't he hitting in front of Mantle in 1960 and 1962. I think it went 39 homers ...61...33 and downhill from there to being a spray hitter for the Cards. Career years happen.

Not that Gonzalez WASN'T on steroids, maybe he was, but he sure didn't look like any of the other users.

I used my memory for Rogers numbers, I could be off.

Roger Maris had numerous injuries after 1961 which brought his career to a premature end. Maris hit 23 homers in 1963 in just 90 games.

In 1964, Maris suffered a severe wrist injury that ended his career as a power hitter. He hit 26 homers that year, but his production fell off after his wrist injury, and he hit far fewer homers in the second half of the season. After that injury, Maris never really recovered as a ballplayer.

My father told me years ago that Maris was still a feared power hitter in the early part of 1964, but he never recovered his power after that injury and was never the same ballplayer again. His last season was 1968. He was only 33.

My father also told me Maris was a rising star when he came to the Yankees at 25, but really had only two injury free seasons after that, and both years he won the MVP.

Mantle hitting clean-up, behind Maris, was pretty much a one-season deal in 1961. For most of his career, Mantle batted third, in front of Yogi Berra.

[Go...gate]

Roger Maris had numerous injuries after 1961 which brought his career to a premature end. Maris hit 23 homers in 1963 in just 90 games.

In 1964, Maris suffered a severe wrist injury that ended his career as a power hitter. He hit 26 homers that year, but his production fell off after his wrist injury, and he hit far fewer homers in the second half of the season. After that injury, Maris never really recovered as a ballplayer.

My father told me years ago that Maris was still a feared power hitter in the early part of 1964, but he never recovered his power after that injury and was never the same ballplayer again. His last season was 1968. He was only 33.

My father also told me Maris was a rising star when he came to the Yankees at 25, but really had only two injury free seasons after that, and both years he won the MVP.

Mantle hitting clean-up, behind Maris, was pretty much a one-season deal in 1961. For most of his career, Mantle batted third, in front of Yogi Berra.

Yep. He was injury-riddled, partly because the Yankees insisted he be in there. Their trainer and doctor said he had no injury; after the 1965 season, he saw his own doctor, who found that his injury was much worse than realized.

[UNHWildCats]

Yankee fans like to accuse players who no evidence has ever shown used steroids cause there upset so many Yankee players are guilty.

[JoltinJoe]

Yankee fans like to accuse players who no evidence has ever shown used steroids cause there upset so many Yankee players are guilty.

The Red Sox of 2003 and 2004 were the most potent offensive teams in history, right in the middle of the steroid era.

But none of the Sox used steroids, even though many of them exhibit plain symptoms of such use. xrolleyesx

Get your head out of the sand. It's been 90 years since the Sox won a WS honestly.

George Mitchell would have a field day with the Sox if he cared to look. Now, as Paul Byrd once asked, what team does he work for?

[JoltinJoe]

Not that Gonzalez WASN'T on steroids, maybe he was, but he sure didn't look like any of the other users.

As for Gonzalez, there has been a lot of suspicion about him. But I found it pretty remarkable in January when David Delluci gave an interview about steroid use in baseball, noting that he had lost his job in Arizona to a guy who was juicing. Now Delluci didn't name the guy, but he did lose his job to Gonzalez.

He also said he lost playing time in 2005 in Texas to another juicer. That guy would have been Gary Matthews, Jr.

[GannonFan]

What's your proof? Steroids might have been a problem in some places prior to 1998, but it was McGuire/Sosa that got more people juicing. Even Barry Bonds's involvement was initiated by what Sosa/McGuire did in 1998.

Look at the 1998 Yankees, which won 125 games. No real juicing on that team. The Yankees of that era didn't have a steroid problem.

To the extent the problem came to New York, it came with Roger Clemens in 1999. And then, after two mediocre seasons, Clemens convinced the Yankees to hire Brian McNamee as a trainer, claiming that McNamee's training routine would bring him back to Cy Young form. And it did. Clemens won 20 games in 2001.

But your statement that all teams through the 1990s were affected is unfounded and false.

Hey, whatever makes you feel good about your Yankees, then so be it. You seem to have no problem implicating most WS teams since the Yankees as being tainted by steroids even though nothing has been proved, especially with the Red Sox (although apparently your own suspicisions are now being elevated to the level of proof). If you really think steroids use only really started after Sosa and McGwire (and for Clemens only after the Yankees won all their WS in their past run) then don't let me bother those blinders you've got on. xthumbsupx

[ALPHAGRIZ1]

I am pretty sure my Braves never juiced or they would have won more than one World Series.

[JoltinJoe]

Hey, whatever makes you feel good about your Yankees, then so be it. You seem to have no problem implicating most WS teams since the Yankees as being tainted by steroids even though nothing has been proved, especially with the Red Sox (although apparently your own suspicisions are now being elevated to the level of proof). If you really think steroids use only really started after Sosa and McGwire (and for Clemens only after the Yankees won all their WS in their past run) then don't let me bother those blinders you've got on. xthumbsupx

Hey, whatever makes you feel good about your Phillies and Rd Sox.

Take your head out of the sand. David Ortiz went from a mediocre platoon player in Minnesota to a feared power hitter virtually overnight.

He has also suffered the following side effects of anabolic steroid use: fatigue, dehydration, and an irregular heart beat. Plus, his body is breaking down from prolonged steroid use in a predictable way: he has had chronic knee problems (just like Jason Giambi); tendon ruptures (hey, Giambi has that too); and frequent ligament tears (yup, Giambi does that all the time too).

Live in blessed ignorance, if that makes you happy.

[bulldog10jw]

For one season, the guy is Jimmy Foxx?xeekx

I thought it was Mel Ott?

[GannonFan]

Hey, whatever makes you feel good about your Phillies and Rd Sox.

Take your head out of the sand. David Ortiz went from a mediocre platoon player in Minnesota to a feared power hitter virtually overnight.

He has also suffered the following side effects of anabolic steroid use: fatigue, dehydration, and an irregular heart beat. Plus, his body is breaking down from prolonged steroid use in a predictable way: he has had chronic knee problems (just like Jason Giambi); tendon ruptures (hey, Giambi has that too); and frequent ligament tears (yup, Giambi does that all the time too).

Live in blessed ignorance, if that makes you happy.

Gee, Paul O'Neil certainly exhibited all the classic symptoms of steroid's rage, I guess that's all the proof I need under your steroids assessment plan. xlolx

Oh, and just because I don't like the Yankees doesn't mean I like the Red Sox - that's just a symptom of your Yankee paranoia that can't seem to fathom why anyone would dislike your beloved Yankees.

[JoltinJoe]

Gee, Paul O'Neil certainly exhibited all the classic symptoms of steroid's rage, I guess that's all the proof I need under your steroids assessment plan. xlolx

Oh, and just because I don't like the Yankees doesn't mean I like the Red Sox - that's just a symptom of your Yankee paranoia that can't seem to fathom why anyone would dislike your beloved Yankees.

Seriously, you sound as silly as those Barry Bonds fans who refused to admit the obvious, even though Barry, like Ortiz, displayed numerous symptoms of steroid use.

Now you're dragging Paul O'Neill into this, a guy who was a contact hitter; who never came close to hitting 30 HRs with the Yankees; and who never suffered fatigue, dehydration, irregular heartbeats, and whose body didn't start to break down prematurely at a young age -- like Ortiz.

Oh, and Ortiz's trainer was once caught at a Canadian airport with steroids in his bag, and held for a period of time for importing illegal substances (but Mitchell made virtually no effort to investigate this). But that's a story for another day.
Do you realize how silly you sound?xcoffeex

Anyway, mark my words. David Ortiz will continue to suffer quirky muscle, tendon and ligament injuries for the rest of his career.

[GannonFan]

Now you're dragging Paul O'Neill into this, a guy who was a contact hitter; who never came close to hitting 30 HRs with the Yankees; and who never suffered fatigue...


Never suffered fatigue?? Uh-oh, first the 'roids rage, now the ability to bounce back quickly from workouts. The evidence builds. xlolx

Oh, and I don't care a lick about Ortiz - I'm not a Red Sox fan. You inability to hear that is akin to your inability to realize that the odds are strongly in favor of somebody in the Yanks doing 'roids even when they won WS games. xcoffeex

[JoltinJoe]

Never suffered fatigue?? Uh-oh, first the 'roids rage, now the ability to bounce back quickly from workouts. The evidence builds. xlolx

Oh, and I don't care a lick about Ortiz - I'm not a Red Sox fan. You inability to hear that is akin to your inability to realize that the odds are strongly in favor of somebody in the Yanks doing 'roids even when they won WS games. xcoffeex

For something you claim not to care about, you spend a lot of time talking about it. If you don't care, move along, but you are making yourself sound silly. Denying Ortiz and accusing O'Neill. Duh.xoopsx

[GannonFan]

For something you claim not to care about, you spend a lot of time talking about it. If you don't care, move along, but you are making yourself sound silly. Denying Ortiz and accusing O'Neill. Duh.xoopsx


No, I really hate the Yankees, hence my interest in the topic and your strange, baseless claim that the Yankess WS titles cannot possibly be tainted by steroids, despite the vast prevalence of steroids throughout the major leagues since the '80's. For a report that you so object to (the Mitchell Report) you sure seem to put a lot of stock into it to defend your point. Odd, don't you think?xrulesx

[JoltinJoe]

No, I really hate the Yankees, hence my interest in the topic and your strange, baseless claim that the Yankess WS titles cannot possibly be tainted by steroids, despite the vast prevalence of steroids throughout the major leagues since the '80's. For a report that you so object to (the Mitchell Report) you sure seem to put a lot of stock into it to defend your point. Odd, don't you think?xrulesx

There is absolutely no evidence, actual or anecedotal, that any member of the 1998 Yankees used steroids or any performance enhancing drugs.

No player on that team who bulked up mysteriously; no player on that team who had a peculiar mid-career transformation; no player on that team who had a strange history of tendon, muscle, or ligament injuries; no player on that team suffered bouts of dehyrdation, fatigue, or irregular heartbeats.

If you have some reason to believe otherwise as to any individual player, state it. But if the best you have is that Paul O'Neill had a quick temper, you better stop now before you sound even more silly.

[DSUrocks07]

What's your proof? Steroids might have been a problem in some places prior to 1998, but it was McGuire/Sosa that got more people juicing. Even Barry Bonds's involvement was initiated by what Sosa/McGuire did in 1998.

Look at the 1998 Yankees, which won 125 games. No real juicing on that team. The Yankees of that era didn't have a steroid problem.

To the extent the problem came to New York, it came with Roger Clemens in 1999. And then, after two mediocre seasons, Clemens convinced the Yankees to hire Brian McNamee as a trainer, claiming that McNamee's training routine would bring him back to Cy Young form. And it did. Clemens won 20 games in 2001.

But your statement that all teams through the 1990s were affected is unfounded and false.

xlolx @ this post

[JoltinJoe]

xlolx @ this post

Refute it, or the joke's on you.

Post substance, or don't bother.

PS -- You better read Game of Shadows, because everything I said about the use of steroids on a more isolated basis prior to the McGuire/Sosa spectacle of 1998; and the far more prevalent use of steroids by players thereafter, is completely supported in that book.

[DSUrocks07]

Refute it, or the joke's on you.

Post substance, or don't bother.

PS -- You better read Game of Shadows, because everything I said about the use of steroids on a more isolated basis prior to the McGuire/Sosa spectacle of 1998; and the far more prevalent use of steroids by players thereafter, is completely supported in that book.

Simple.

"The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence...Simply because you don't have evidence that something does exist does not mean you have evidence of something that doesn't exist." xthumbsupx xlolx



So in your view...steroids did not exist prior to 1999?? xconfusedx

[JoltinJoe]

Simple.

"The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence...Simply because you don't have evidence that something does exist does not mean you have evidence of something that doesn't exist." xthumbsupx xlolx



So in your view...steroids did not exist prior to 1999?? xconfusedx

No, what I said it was not a "baseball wide" problem throughout the 1990s. Steroids were being used, but not to the extent that they were used post-McGuire/Sosa.

For example, in Game of Shadows, Kim Bell is quoted as saying Barry Bonds was infuriated by McGuire/Sosa in 1998, because he knew he was a better player than both of them, and he knew they were cheating. And that is what motivated him to start steroids in the months leading up to the 1999 season. He was pissed at being upstaged by inferior talents.

Plainly steroids had made significant advances with some rosters by 1998(like the A's and Texas Rangers, owing to the presence of Jose Canseco, and his willingness to let teammates know what he was doing). But some teams had no real problems at that time, and the Yankees were one of them.

Gannonfan is trying to taint the accomplishments of one of the great teams of all time, the 1998 Yankees, without a shred of proof, actual or anectodal. He's just an angry Phillies fan jealous of another team's success.