Differences between TSN poll and AGS poll

[kardplayer]

There's a lot of talk around the boards each week about the AGS poll being better than the Sports Network poll. Just to put some facts around it, here are the differences...

Teams ranked 2 or more spots lower in the AGS poll than in the Sports Network poll:

Hampton 5 vs. 3
Coastal Carolina 15 vs. 9
South Carolina State 23 vs. 20
Grambling 25 vs. 19

Teams ranked 2 or more spots higher in the AGS poll than in the Sports Network poll:

App State 4 vs. 7
EWU 9 vs. 11
YSU 13 vs. 15
UC Davis 19 vs. 21

Seems to me that the AGS pollsters take SOS (or at least the groupthink perceived SOS) into account a lot more than the TSN pollsters do. It would also appear that there is no east coast bias here.

Discuss...

[AppGuy04]

There's a lot of talk around the boards each week about the AGS poll being better than the Sports Network poll. Just to put some facts around it, here are the differences...

Teams ranked 2 or more spots lower in the AGS poll than in the Sports Network poll:

Hampton 5 vs. 3
Coastal Carolina 15 vs. 9
South Carolina State 23 vs. 20
Grambling 25 vs. 19

Teams ranked 2 or more spots higher in the AGS poll than in the Sports Network poll:

App State 4 vs. 7
EWU 9 vs. 11
YSU 13 vs. 15
UC Davis 19 vs. 21

Seems to me that the AGS pollsters take SOS (or at least the groupthink perceived SOS) into account a lot more than the TSN pollsters do. It would also appear that there is no east coast bias here.

Discuss...

well, personally like the AGS poll better because of the SOS, the 4 teams listed first, IMHO, have not played the caliber of teams as the bottom 4 teams

[colgate13]

I think some TSN pollsters are reading some of our early postings to get their ideas for their vote! Over time, their really won't be a difference between AGS and TSN. ;)

[Chi Panther]

I think some TSN pollsters are reading some of our early postings to get their ideas for their vote! Over time, their really won't be a difference between AGS and TSN. ;)


I agree Colgate13.

I would also like to add....its hard to fault ranking a team with no loses ahead of teams with 2 loses......
3. Hampton Pirates (23) 8-0 2,576 3
4. Montana Grizzlies (2) 6-2 2,491 5
5. Southern Illinois Salukis (1) 6-2 2,337 8
6. Western Kentucky Hilltoppers 6-2 2,131 1
7. Appalachian State Mountaineers 6-2 2,088 12
8. Massachusetts Minutemen 6-2 1,808 7

I do believe however that teams 4-8 would probably beat Hampton.

[skinny_uncle]

I agree Colgate13.

I would also like to add....its hard to fault ranking a team with no loses ahead of teams with 2 loses......
3. Hampton Pirates (23) 8-0 2,576 3
4. Montana Grizzlies (2) 6-2 2,491 5
5. Southern Illinois Salukis (1) 6-2 2,337 8
6. Western Kentucky Hilltoppers 6-2 2,131 1
7. Appalachian State Mountaineers 6-2 2,088 12
8. Massachusetts Minutemen 6-2 1,808 7

I do believe however that teams 4-8 would probably beat Hampton.
I would bet money on it.
It weems to me that the AGS and TSN polls are converging and becoming more similar as the season wears on. Anyone else notice that?

[aggie6thman]

UC Davis is #7 in the GPI and with a win over SFA, who knows where we might end up after that.

[SAME OLD G]

One poll is more culturally biased than the other.

[youwouldno]

I'm definitely biased against teams that play joke schedules. I can't possibly know how good they are, but since they were afraid to play good teams, I just assume they themselves are not confident they could win.

I mean, Coastal's schedule might as well be full of SEC teams compared to Hampton, not to mention Grambling...

[SAME OLD G]

What's that supposed to mean sir... biased indeed!
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Ohhh...don't get me wrong. They both make it pretty clear that they don't have a ton of respect for HBCU's (and its not like we are asking for it), but AGS just makes a stronger case.

And don't act like you are shocked to read this.

[SAME OLD G]

I am shocked to read you post this "CULTURALLY BIASED" garbage in regards to football teams. Lack of respect for teams doesn't equal bigotry about a culture.
I quit. :(

[FlyBoy8]

Give me a break. Hampton is in everyone's top 10, and many top 5s despite having ZERO quality wins. The Pirates are ranked over the top teams in the Ivy, Patriot, Great West and Southland conferences, yet we're "culturally biased?"

Grambling has beaten who this year? What is Grambling's best win so far? Maybe we're just biased against teams that don't play anybody. Play a couple Southland teams and then we'll talk rankings.


Culturally biased... Give it a rest. That's such crap.

[rokamortis]

It weems to me that the AGS and TSN polls are converging and becoming more similar as the season wears on. Anyone else notice that?

Only makes sense. As the season goes on no one has to guess anymore. The polls should be very similar at season end.

[rokamortis]

No I haven't though this week all three polls had the same teams ranked... just in different order. AGS influence?

Perhaps TSN and ESPN influence the AGS poll?

All of the polls have their strength and weaknesses. For example - the TSN and ESPN polls have had Hampton ranked in the top five and CCU in the top 15 for a little while now, seems that AGS is finally catching up. So it works both ways.

[saint0917]

One poll is more culturally biased than the other.

You should hang out with Shellshock, for some reason you both like to play the "Race Card" game. There's not one poll out there that is "Culturally Biased". Who do you think from the "HBCU" should be in the Top 25?

[AppGuy04]

Tell me something.....

How many of you have Hampton ranked ahead of App State?

If so, keep this in mind...yes App has 2 losses, probably 3 by the end of the season, but those loses are @Kansas(I-A), @Furman(current #1 team in the country), and @LSU(I-A #6 currently)

and Hampton's one win over a ranked team (#23 in this weeks AGS poll) is better than that?

Give me a Break!

[UNHWildCats]

Tell me something.....

How many of you have Hampton ranked ahead of App State?

If so, keep this in mind...yes App has 2 losses, probably 3 by the end of the season, but those loses are @Kansas(I-A), @Furman(current #1 team in the country), and @LSU(I-A #6 currently)

and Hampton's one win over a ranked team (#23 in this weeks AGS poll) is better than that?

Give me a Break!

I agree Hampton is overly overrated and will be demolished in the playoffs, hmmm wouldnt you just love it if App St gets to be the demlisher?? :)

[OL FU]

Tell me something.....

How many of you have Hampton ranked ahead of App State?

If so, keep this in mind...yes App has 2 losses, probably 3 by the end of the season, but those loses are @Kansas(I-A), @Furman(current #1 team in the country), and @LSU(I-A #6 currently)

and Hampton's one win over a ranked team (#23 in this weeks AGS poll) is better than that?

Give me a Break!

In my opinion, you don't get credit for losing to Kansas and LSU.
But to answer your question, I have App ranked ahead of Hampton.

[AppGuy04]

I agree Hampton is overly overrated and will be demolished in the playoffs, hmmm wouldnt you just love it if App St gets to be the demlisher?? :)

YES I WOULD! and I think you guys would cherish that title too

[UNHWildCats]

YES I WOULD! and I think you guys would cherish that title too

we'd cherish another game with UMass so we can beat them and run wild on there oh so mighty defense, so perhaps we can finally shut them up.

[UNHWildCats]

In my opinion, you don't get credit for losing to Kansas and LSU.
But to answer your question, I have App ranked ahead of Hampton.


I dont think he was looking for credit as much as looking to not be penalized as much.

[AppGuy04]

I dont think he was looking for credit as much as looking to not be penalized as much.

correct, like for instance this week

mark my words....if/when App loses to LSU, they will drop in the polls, hopefully just a couple places, which doesn't bother me, but what will bother me is this...

Coastal will win and thus probably be ranked ahead of App(not in the AGS),
and if GSU wins, they will jump up pretty close to App

--EDITED FOR LANGUAGE--

[bluehenbillk]

Honestly I'm the 1st person to get all over people for pulling out the race card but Same Old G, has a point, the MEAC & SWAC don't get respect in the AGS poll. Granted, respect has to be earned & the MEAC hasn't earned respect with their lack of postseason success.

However, I personally see 2005 as a wide open year, you can't tell me there are any teams that are shoo-ins for the Final 4. Furman hasn't beat anyone convincingly, UNH has played close or got killed with the good teams on their schedule, Montana doesn't scare people & the Gateway has no clear top team. If there ever was a year that a Hampton, which played well on the road at W&M last year, could do something in the playoffs I think 2005 is it.

I'm not claiming race & I'm looking at everyone in football unis, not skin color, I see Hampton winning a playoff game this year & definitely hosting a 1st round game, if not being a seed. I can't see putting 9-2 teams over an 11-0 Hampton squad.

[UNHWildCats]

correct, like for instance this week

mark my words....if/when App loses to LSU, they will drop in the polls, hopefully just a couple places, which doesn't bother me, but what will bother me is this...

Coastal will win and thus probably be ranked ahead of App(not in the AGS),
and if GSU wins, they will jump up pretty close to App

Theres always hope, If you lose close I think you'll be ok, If i was a poll voter and you played close and lose, and then LSU beats Alabama the next week, i'd prolly have you ranked the same as you are now. assuming you wont 2 weeks from now aswell lol

but heck why leave it to peoples oppinions, just get out there and kick LSU around

[AppGuy04]

Honestly I'm the 1st person to get all over people for pulling out the race card but Same Old G, has a point, the MEAC & SWAC don't get respect in the AGS poll. Granted, respect has to be earned & the MEAC hasn't earned respect with their lack of postseason success.

However, I personally see 2005 as a wide open year, you can't tell me there are any teams that are shoo-ins for the Final 4. Furman hasn't beat anyone convincingly, UNH has played close or got killed with the good teams on their schedule, Montana doesn't scare people & the Gateway has no clear top team. If there ever was a year that a Hampton, which played well on the road at W&M last year, could do something in the playoffs I think 2005 is it.

I'm not claiming race & I'm looking at everyone in football unis, not skin color, I see Hampton winning a playoff game this year & definitely hosting a 1st round game, if not being a seed. I can't see putting 9-2 teams over an 11-0 Hampton squad.

sorry man, i understand what you are saying, but the MEAC and the SWAC are 2 of the worst teams in the land, thats a proven fact

so IMO, they have to play someone before they get any respect

[AppGuy04]

Theres always hope, If you lose close I think you'll be ok, If i was a poll voter and you played close and lose, and then LSU beats Alabama the next week, i'd prolly have you ranked the same as you are now. assuming you wont 2 weeks from now aswell lol

but heck why leave it to peoples oppinions, just get out there and kick LSU around

if we beat LSU you guys would never see me again, I'd prolly have a heart attack

[ChickenMan]

I quit. :(

The bias isn't cultural... it's reality based... the records of HBCU programs participating in the I-AA playoffs is a combined.... 8-37.

The MECA is 8-18 and the SWAC is 0-19.

Sad... but true...

[Gil Dobie]

One poll is more culturally biased than the other.

The AGS Voting Culture is biased on Wins/Losses and strength of schedule.

[UNHWildCats]

if we beat LSU you guys would never see me again, I'd prolly have a heart attack

ok if LSU loses and we dont see you for 7 days we'll start posting the Eulogys

[AppGuy04]

ok if LSU loses and we dont see you for 7 days we'll start posting the Eulogys

i don't know about NH, but in NC you have to be missing 7 years, not 7 days, before you can be declared legally dead

[OL FU]

I dont think he was looking for credit as much as looking to not be penalized as much.

He basicially said put our three losses against their zero. It goes back to what Colgate 13 said, you can't assume because LSU beats the snot out of you that you would have beaten another I-AA team.

I-A's only impact my poll opinion if you play them close or beat them or if you play one with which you can be competetive (Troy, UAB) . Otherwise it is exactly what it is, a money game. With that said, it is also a loss. Furman usually has one of those as well and usually loses. So I don't think it is a bad thing. But the fact of the matter is that ASU is 5-3, not 5-1 or 7-1, if you assume that you would have automatically won a I-AA game. Now with all my ranting, I have ASU rated 4th. I don't know if I will drop them next week after they get their automatic loss, but I can assure you they will not move up for getting beat by 30 or more points.

There are very few people on here that don't get that fact that Hampton plays a weak schedule. We have the playoffs. They would get in if they were 5-6 and won the MEAC auto bid. So what is the difference? Give them the credit they are due. They are 8-0. This will be the first year in a while that the MEAC wins a playoff game.

[Hamptongal]

The bias isn't cultural... it's reality based... the records of HBCU programs participating in the I-AA playoffs is a combined.... 8-37.

The MECA is 8-18 and the SWAC is 0-19.

Sad... but true...

And last year JMU was the national champion and this year well, you know...
Past performance is not indicative of future results.

[AppGuy04]

And last year JMU was the national champion and this year well, you know...
Past performance is not indicative of future results.

true, but they have only played one decent team, SCSU, who got beat by Coastal, who got whalloped by App

i know there is no transitive property, but take it for whats its worth

[Hamptongal]

true, but they have only played one decent team, SCSU, who got beat by Coastal, who got whalloped by App

i know there is no transitive property, but take it for whats its worth

I take it to be worth nothing only because of this: Let's take a look at the A10 for a second, please.
UNH is #2 in the country, however they got smashed 42-10 by W&M who lost to Villanova.
I can go on (stay with me), JMU lost to Delaware but beat Hofstra who lost to Delaware. Hofstra also took Furman (#1 in the country) to overtime so let's not get into transitive. Let's just stick with the schedules. B/C really one could make an argument on the transitive properties of almost all the teams because there are so few one loss teams.

[AppGuy04]

I take it to be worth nothing only because of this: Let's take a look at the A10 for a second, please.
UNH is #2 in the country, however they got smashed 42-10 by W&M who lost to Villanova.
I can go on (stay with me), JMU lost to Delaware but beat Hofstra who lost to Delaware. Hofstra also took Furman (#1 in the country) to overtime so let's not get into transitive. Let's just stick with the schedules. B/C really one could make an argument on the transitive properties of almost all the teams because there are so few one loss teams.

thats y i said the transitive property doesn't work

my basic point is that they haven't played anyone, so we don't know how good or how bad you guys are

[ChickenMan]

And last year JMU was the national champion and this year well, you know...
Past performance is not indicative of future results.


Why should voters assume that those HBCU programs have improved... with no evidence to support such an assumption??? Hampton or another HBCU needs to play and beat a top ranked I-AA before perceptions will change among most AGS voters.

[AppGuy04]

In the case of Hampton, I think they deserve to get in if they finish 11-0, thats not the argument, but do think they deserve a seed as one of the best 4 teams in the country, hell no

[Hamptongal]

In the case of Hampton, I think they deserve to get in if they finish 11-0, thats not the argument, but do think they deserve a seed as one of the best 4 teams in the country, hell no
Well they are untested as far as top 10 but it's hard for any team to go unbeaten. I am not saying whether or not they deserve to be any higher or lower however I just think people's arguments about past performance are weak. I don't care how deep a team went in the playoffs last year. I care about their performances this year. Furman should be #1 now, UNH should be #2, maybe even #1. App. State should be ranked higher with their losses but that's how others see it. Ain't no good to cry. Just call your players and tell em to whoop up on some Hampton butt if they meet them in the playoffs THIS YEAR and I will do the same.

[SoCon48]

He basicially said put our three losses against their zero. It goes back to what Colgate 13 said, you can't assume because LSU beats the snot out of you that you would have beaten another I-AA team.

I-A's only impact my poll opinion if you play them close or beat them or if you play one with which you can be competetive (Troy, UAB) . Otherwise it is exactly what it is, a money game. With that said, it is also a loss. Furman usually has one of those as well and usually loses. So I don't think it is a bad thing. But the fact of the matter is that ASU is 5-3, not 5-1 or 7-1, if you assume that you would have automatically won a I-AA game. Now with all my ranting, I have ASU rated 4th. I don't know if I will drop them next week after they get their automatic loss, but I can assure you they will not move up for getting beat by 30 or more points.

There are very few people on here that don't get that fact that Hampton plays a weak schedule. We have the playoffs. They would get in if they were 5-6 and won the MEAC auto bid. So what is the difference? Give them the credit they are due. They are 8-0. This will be the first year in a while that the MEAC wins a playoff game.

Interesting that a loss to say a Liberty and an LSU counts the same.
We can assume an automatic loss to LSU the same way we can assume an automatic win to Manchester.

[OL FU]

Interesting that a loss to say a Liberty and an LSU counts the same.
We can assume an automatic loss to LSU the same way we can assume an automatic win to Manchester.

Who lost to Liberty?

[AppGuy04]

Well they are untested as far as top 10 but it's hard for any team to go unbeaten. I am not saying whether or not they deserve to be any higher or lower however I just think people's arguments about past performance are weak. I don't care how deep a team went in the playoffs last year. I care about their performances this year. Furman should be #1 now, UNH should be #2, maybe even #1. App. State should be ranked higher with their losses but that's how others see it. Ain't no good to cry. Just call your players and tell em to whoop up on some Hampton butt if they meet them in the playoffs THIS YEAR and I will do the same.

thats why I haven't used the "past performance" argument

I've said alot on here that I believe in the "what have you done for me lately" theory

[SoCon48]

thats y i said the transitive property doesn't work

my basic point is that they haven't played anyone, so we don't know how good or how bad you guys are
No dependable transitive properties, but if A beats B by 60, B beats C by 60, when A plays C, you can have C. My money is on A. :D Common opponents.

[AppGuy04]

No dependable transitive properties, but if A beats B by 60, B beats C by 60, when A plays C, you can have C. My money is on A. :D Common opponents.

thats basically what i was saying, its only logical that it would work that way

and i'm sure statistically, if someone did that, A would win alot more than C

[McNeese75]

if we beat LSU you guys would never see me again, I'd prolly have a heart attack

:D Yep, that would pretty much cut off the gravy train for every other out of state I-AA team they might think about scheduling in the future. (but it would be worth it!!)

[SoCon48]

Who lost to Liberty?

Well, nobody but Concord yet. But there is powerhouse Charleston Southern looming on the schedule. VM-1, Chatt, G-W, and CCU had to resort to drastic anal extractions to win. :cool:

OK let's revise it, a win over LSU goes in the same column as a win over Liberty.

[AppGuy04]

:D Yep, that would pretty much cut off the gravy train for every other out of state I-AA team they might think about scheduling in the future. (but it would be worth it!!)

sorry, but i'd love to give Baton Rouge something else to suffer about ;)

just a joke

[SoCon48]

thats basically what i was saying, its only logical that it would work that way

and i'm sure statistically, if someone did that, A would win alot more than C

You're right there is no dependable transitive property, but at the same time, a 50 pt win over a team doesn't even guarantee a vicory later vs them in the play-offs.

[Hamptongal]

No dependable transitive properties, but if A beats B by 60, B beats C by 60, when A plays C, you can have C. My money is on A. :D Common opponents.
Really? Let's try that out with A10 which is exactly what I did. A10 has a ton of common opponents. W&M beat UNH 42-10, Villanova beat W&M 35-21 so are you saying that Villanova would beat UNH by 46? nope.

Therefore that argument stinks up this topic board.

[OL FU]

Well, nobody but Concord yet. But there is powerhouse Charleston Southern looming on the schedule. VM-1, Chatt, G-W, and CCU had to resort to drastic anal extractions to win. :cool:

OK let's revise it, a win over LSU goes in the same column as a win over Liberty.

No Absolutely not. But the argument has been more like let's take some of your wins away because we know that LSU is going to knock the Crappy out of us. Sorry, I had to.

[SAME OLD G]

The bias isn't cultural... it's reality based... the records of HBCU programs participating in the I-AA playoffs is a combined.... 8-37.

The MECA is 8-18 and the SWAC is 0-19.

Sad... but true...
How many of those 19 games were played at SWAC sites?

[AppGuy04]

How many of those 19 games were played at SWAC sites?

doesn't matter, you said yourself that teams such as App State wouldn't draw a crowd

and if they are that good, then they should be able to win on the road, last year alone, there were 4 away teams that won in the first round of the playoffs

[Hamptongal]

How many of those 19 games were played at SWAC sites?
Home only means anything to people if they aren't on their own home turf. Teams who consistently play at home will give you no mercy b/c they were all played as away games. I understand where you are coming from but your point doesn't mean anything to the other fans unless their own team is getting the shaft.

[Hamptongal]

doesn't matter, you said yourself that teams such as App State wouldn't draw a crowd

and if they are that good, then they should be able to win on the road, last year alone, there were 4 away teams that won in the first round of the playoffs

I told ya...shouldn't have used that as an argument G.

[OL FU]

I told ya...shouldn't have used that as an argument G.

Welcome to the board!

[ChickenMan]

How many of those 19 games were played at SWAC sites?


JMU won four playoff games last year... NONE on their home field... ;)

[OL FU]

How many of those 19 games were played at SWAC sites?

and another Welcome to the Board!

[Hamptongal]

Welcome to the board!
Well thank ye.

[SAME OLD G]

Play a couple Southland teams and then we'll talk rankings.


Culturally biased... Give it a rest. That's such crap.

See, this is a culturally biased statement. You seem to think that playing a team from the Southland will some how add credibilty for us despite the fact that we have played a D-1A opponent and will likely play one next year.

If you all could see the forest through the trees, you all would know that when i say that the polls are culturally biases it doesn't not mean race. You only see what you want to see.

[SAME OLD G]

JMU won four playoff games last year... NONE on their home field... ;) How many of the those 19 games were at SWAC sites? Please don't divert.

[AppGuy04]

Well thank ye.

are we taking this Pirate think a little far? hahah, jk

[SAME OLD G]

and another Welcome to the Board!

I am not new to this board.

[AppGuy04]

See, this is a culturally biased statement. You seem to think that playing a team from the Southland will some how add credibilty for us despite the fact that we have played a D-1A opponent and will likely play one next year.

If you all could see the forest through the trees, you all would know that when i say that the polls are culturally biases it doesn't not mean race. You only see what you want to see.

then please elaborate

what is this culture you refer to?

[OL FU]

I am not new to this board.

Sorry, ( in a way I still am) was fooled by the number of posts

[ChickenMan]

How many of the those 19 games were at SWAC sites? Please don't divert.

0 for 19 is very telling regardless of where the games were played. Road teams win EVERY year in the playoffs... so who's 'diverting'...

[Hamptongal]

are we taking this Pirate think a little far? hahah, jk
that was the point, glad you got the joke matey :D

[Hamptongal]

0 for 19 is very telling regardless of where the games were played. Road teams win EVERY year in the playoffs... so who's 'diverting'...
both of you are diverting from the other person's point. Home team advantage is home team advantage. However teams can win on the road. nuff said.

[SAME OLD G]

0 for 19 is very telling regardless of where the games were played. Road teams win EVERY year in the playoffs... so who's 'diverting'...

Dude, I am the one who asked the question...which you still have not answered.

[ChickenMan]

Here are some facts... not opinions...


road teams won 6 of 14 playoff games in '04

road teams won 5 of 14 playoff games in '03

the SWAC has won 0 of 19 playoff games regardless of the venue

[AppGuy04]

Dude, I am the one who asked the question...which you still have not answered.

nor have you answered mine...what is this culture you refer to?

and looking up exactly how many games were played at home would be a little difficult and time consuming, so give it time

[ChickenMan]

Dude, I am the one who asked the question...which you still have not answered.

Sorry but I don't have the locations of every SWAC playoff game since 1978... do you???

[SAME OLD G]

Sorry but I don't have the locations of every SWAC playoff game since 1978... do you???

None of them were played at SWAC sites.

[ChickenMan]

None of them were played at SWAC sites.

same as the number of SWAC wins... :p

[SAME OLD G]

nor have you answered mine...what is this culture you refer to?

and looking up exactly how many games were played at home would be a little difficult and time consuming, so give it time

Its a culture that that has been discussed on this board time and time again. I don't think I need go into it again.

[AppGuy04]

Its a culture that that has been discussed on this board time and time again. I don't think I need go into it again.

we all know EXACTLY what you mean

[SAME OLD G]

same as the number of SWAC wins... :p

Look, don't ask the question if you can't handle the answer.

[AppGuy04]

If you want to look through the 588 pages of the NCAA record book, you be my guest

[Hamptongal]

we all know EXACTLY what you mean
No you assume you know what he means. There is a separation between PWCs and HBCUs and while much of it is supported by facts, there are snide comments snuck into many threads from what I have read. I have been reading on this site for a long time before I decided to join. From one person calling HBCUs agreements with ESPNU "corporate welfare" to giving credence to one person's win over an unranked team but claiming Hampton's win against SCST meant nothing. Fine, don't give credit for things undeserved, I completely agree that SWAC and MEAC need to start winning in the post-season but nobody this season has won in the playoffs so basing things off the past is ignorant especially after JMUs performance this year, one year after going all the way. Sometimes it does seem as though there is a line that is sometimes crossed in these threads, an imaginary line but that's life and people should quit acting like it doesn't exist. I am not pointing the fingers at anybody, but most people think their conference is the best, just ask Big Sky and A10 members. Most people don't like to be accused of bias but most people naturally have it, it is hard to overcome. However, when it is actually voiced, however sly people may think they are it is still bias and still palpable.

[ChickenMan]

Look, don't ask the question if you can't handle the answer.

Why are you continuing with your excuse making???

The facts are... over the past two years (the only info I have available) road teams have won 11 of 28 (.392% ) of I-AA playoff games. Meanwhile the SWAC has won ZERO playoff games in 19 attempts. If we use the winning percentage (.392) that road teams have achieved over the past two seasons... one could reasonably expect that the SWAC would have won 6 or 7 of those 19 road games. The have won NONE... the facts are the facts. Ignore them if you wish... :rolleyes:

[AppGuy04]

No you assume you know what he means. There is a separation between PWCs and HBCUs and while much of it is supported by facts, there are snide comments snuck into many threads from what I have read. I have been reading on this site for a long time before I decided to join. From one person calling HBCUs agreements with ESPNU "corporate welfare" to giving credence to one person's win over an unranked team but claiming Hampton's win against SCST meant nothing. Fine, don't give credit for things undeserved, I completely agree that SWAC and MEAC need to start winning in the post-season but nobody this season has won in the playoffs so basing things off the past is ignorant especially after JMUs performance this year, one year after going all the way. Sometimes it does seem as though there is a line that is sometimes crossed in these threads, an imaginary line but that's life and people should quit acting like it doesn't exist. I am not pointing the fingers at anybody, but most people think their conference is the best, just ask Big Sky and A10 members. Most people don't like to be accused of bias but most people naturally have it, it is hard to overcome. However, when it is actually voiced, however sly people may think they are it is still bias and still palpable.

then all he has to do is answer the question. by saying it has been discussed before, that is not an answer, all it leaves is conjecture, that is a recipe for disaster, especially considering that other recently have thrown the race card out there

not accusing, just clarifying

[SAME OLD G]

Why are you continuing with your excuse making???

The facts are... over the past two years (the only info I have available) road teams have won 11 of 28 (.392% ) of I-AA playoff games. Meanwhile the SWAC has won ZERO playoff games in 19 attempts. If we use the winning percentage (.392) that road teams have achieved over the past two seasons... one could reasonably expect that the SWAC would have won 6 or 7 of those 19 road games. The have won NONE... the facts are the facts. Ignore them if you wish... :rolleyes:

The fact is the SWAC has not been in a playoff game in any of the those two years you mentioned, so your theory is flawed. You can't compare apples to grapefruits.

[putter]

As someone from the west, all I can say is, my only avenue to gauge how good a Hampton, Grambling, SC St is - is by looking at whom they have played. We are familiar with A-10, Southland, Southern, Gateway conference teams so I look for those teams in your OOC schedule to see how good you are. Every year is different so teams good one year may not be good the next but usually they are not that far off. I give Hampton credit for being undefeated and should be rewarded if they go 11-0 but if you want respect then play a quality OOC schedule top to bottom and then the AGS posters will give you your due, guaranteed!

[Hamptongal]

As someone from the west, all I can say is, my only avenue to gauge how good a Hampton, Grambling, SC St is - is by looking at whom they have played. We are familiar with A-10, Southland, Southern, Gateway conference teams so I look for those teams in your OOC schedule to see how good you are. Every year is different so teams good one year may not be good the next but usually they are not that far off. I give Hampton credit for being undefeated and should be rewarded if they go 11-0 but if you want respect then play a quality OOC schedule top to bottom and then the AGS posters will give you your due, guaranteed!
Easier said than done, the teams that have played Hampton OOC don't tend to play them again, not because of an unwillingness on the part of Hampton, just to name a few...Western Illinois last year (Hampton won 40-20) and JMU a few years prior. Hampton has also tried to consistently get W&M during the regular season but haven't been able to. Hampton has even tried to join other conferences, so like I said it's easier said than done. Hampton has put in the bids so even if they don't get a seed we are still trying to get a home game. We'll see in the playoffs, it's very exciting.

[ChickenMan]

The fact is the SWAC has not been in a playoff game in any of the those two years you mentioned, so your theory is flawed. You can't compare apples to grapefruits.


My original response was to your claim that the AGS poll is 'culturally' biased. I tried to present facts to demonstrate why some AGS pollsters are reluctant to give HBCUs the respect in the polls that you apparently feel they deserve. You chose to ignore those facts... but present no evidence to support your claim of cultural bias.

Apparenty we will just have to agree to disagree.

[TypicalTribe]

It is naive to still claim that the lack of respect for MEAC and SWAC teams is a cultural bias. It is a conference bias. Look around and see what kind of respect the teams in the OVC get. The conference is an afterthought right now and it's leader struggles to break into the Top 25. The Patriot has earned some respect by winning playoff games, but still fights an uphill battle and has only one team in the Top 40 of the GPI.

Just like in anything else, you need to earn respect and Hampton has been making steps in that department, but still has a ways to go. If they can win out and get a seed and then win a game or two, they will move to a different level in the eyes of most people on here and will win some credibility for the league.

Unfortunately, since the SWAC has chosen to completely isolate itself from I-AA as a whole, it has no such opportunity and will therefore not see any changes in opinion.

[89Hen]

It is naive to still claim that the lack of respect for MEAC and SWAC teams is a cultural bias. It is a conference bias. Look around and see what kind of respect the teams in the OVC get.
and B-I-N-G-O was his name-o.

[AppGuy04]

not only are they 0-fer but most of these games aren't even close

[SAME OLD G]

Unfortunately, since the SWAC has chosen to completely isolate itself from I-AA as a whole, it has no such opportunity and will therefore not see any changes in opinion.

Southern was schedule to play McNeese this year but was cancelled due to Katrina. Alcorn State played against SELA. Texas Southern played McNeese. How in the hell have we completely isolated ourselves from 1-AA when we are a 1-AA conference?

Again, let me make this perfectly clear. I am not asking any of you for your your respect. I am not asking any of you to respect us. i am simply expressing my opinion on why the polls are the way they are.

[siugrad99]

Chosing to not participate in the playoffs pretty much sets you apart from the rest. "G" greatness... hardly, come join the A10, Big Sky or Gateway and see how "Great" you guys would be.

[SAME OLD G]

Chosing to not participate in the playoffs pretty much sets you apart from the rest. "G" greatness... hardly, come join the A10, Big Sky or Gateway and see how "Great" you guys would be.

Another culturally biased post...

[AppGuy04]

Another culturally biased post...

how?

he was just saying that in those conferences, you would get waxed, thats all, damn :bang:

[89Hen]

Another culturally biased post...
How's that?

Conference Rank
Rank, Conference (Average Rating)
1. Big Sky Conference (26.74)
2. Gateway Football Conference (29.24)
3. Southern Conference (29.32)
4. Atlantic 10 Conference (29.69)
5. Great West Football Conference (31.43)
6. Southland Conference (32.86)
7. Ivy League (39.24)
8. Patriot League (48.90)
9. Ohio Valley Conference (55.37)
10. Mid-Eastern Athletic Conference (56.09)
11. Big South Conference (57.07)
12. Southwestern Athletic Conference (65.93)

As far as I know, the computer models don't know from culture. :rolleyes:

[TopsInDaVille]

Something I've always wondered about the SWAC: Why isn't the Grambling-Southern game played on a date that would still allow those teams to participate in the I-AA playoffs? Is it because neither school wants to lose the money that a Thanksgiving weekend date helps bring in? Would those schools lose a lot of money by playing that game a week earlier? Why doesn't the SWAC have an automatic bid to the playoffs?

Sorry if these topics have been covered ad nauseum in the past, but I really don't know the answers. I'm very interested in the SWAC and its seemingly quasi-status as a I-AA member. Please enlighten me.

[SAME OLD G]

how?

he was just saying that in those conferences, you would get waxed, thats all, damn :bang:

And this respnose defends that bias.

[SAME OLD G]

How's that?

Conference Rank
Rank, Conference (Average Rating)
1. Big Sky Conference (26.74)
2. Gateway Football Conference (29.24)
3. Southern Conference (29.32)
4. Atlantic 10 Conference (29.69)
5. Great West Football Conference (31.43)
6. Southland Conference (32.86)
7. Ivy League (39.24)
8. Patriot League (48.90)
9. Ohio Valley Conference (55.37)
10. Mid-Eastern Athletic Conference (56.09)
11. Big South Conference (57.07)
12. Southwestern Athletic Conference (65.93)

As far as I know, the computer models don't know from culture. :rolleyes: So whats your point?

[89Hen]

So whats your point?
How can you say it's cultural when there's an OBVIOUS disparity between the SWAC and the Gateway, Big Sky, A10....

[SAME OLD G]

How can you say it's cultural when there's an OBVIOUS disparity between the SWAC and the Gateway, Big Sky, A10.... Based on what?

[AppGuy04]

So whats your point?

his, and my point is that the bias is because those conferences are better than the SWAC, not this "culture" you speak of, which you have yet to define, since you say its not racial

[SAME OLD G]

Something I've always wondered about the SWAC: Why isn't the Grambling-Southern game played on a date that would still allow those teams to participate in the I-AA playoffs? Is it because neither school wants to lose the money that a Thanksgiving weekend date helps bring in? Would those schools lose a lot of money by playing that game a week earlier? Why doesn't the SWAC have an automatic bid to the playoffs?

Sorry if these topics have been covered ad nauseum in the past, but I really don't know the answers. I'm very interested in the SWAC and its seemingly quasi-status as a I-AA member. Please enlighten me. Why doesn't the Ivy League play in the playoffs?

[TopsInDaVille]

I'm being serious. I honestly don't know. Was there a time that the SWAC did have an automatic bid? The story I've always heard about the Ivy League is that they're not interested in having their "student-athletes" extend their season beyond the regular season. Is that the SWAC's stance as well? If so, fine. I just don't know.

[89Hen]

Based on what?
Based on 11 different computer models and human polls. What do you have to back up your wild accusations?

[FlyBoy8]

See, this is a culturally biased statement. You seem to think that playing a team from the Southland will some how add credibilty for us despite the fact that we have played a D-1A opponent and will likely play one next year.

If you all could see the forest through the trees, you all would know that when i say that the polls are culturally biases it doesn't not mean race. You only see what you want to see.

You played a I-A opponent and got smoked. That proves what? Nothing. Are you saying playing a Southland team wouldn't give you more credibility?

In what way is the statement that you should play Southland teams culturally biased? Don't tell me I only see what I want to see, spell it out for me. The Southland is a better conference than the SWAC (last year 4-7 McNeese beat 8-4 Southern, for one thing). Playing good Southland teams and beating them would do wonders for your conference.

It seems like you want to have your cake and eat it to.
1. You don't want our respect and see no need to ditch your rivalries with other HBCUs to prove anything.
2. We're culturally biased because we don't rank three? four? five? (how many should be in there) HBCUs in the top 25.

If you want to keep things the way they are, I have no problem with that. I respect that. If you don't need respect from us, I'll give you more respect. But to say this poll is racist is bull****. You spell out for me why I'm wrong. I really want to know.

[89Hen]

the Ivy League is that they're not interested in having their "student-athletes" extend their season beyond the regular season. Is that the SWAC's stance as well? If so, fine. I just don't know.
No. The SWAC would rather have a championship game and Bayou Classic and the NCAA won't move the playoffs to accomodate that.

[kardplayer]

Chosing to not participate in the playoffs pretty much sets you apart from the rest. "G" greatness... hardly, come join the A10, Big Sky or Gateway and see how "Great" you guys would be.

The A10 and the Southern are the only "power" conferences in my eyes, at least in recent years.

In order to be a power CONFERENCE there needs to be lots of depth, not just 1 or 2 schools with playoff success.

In the last 5 years, 4 different A10 and Southern Conference schools have advanced to the Final Four, with GSU making it 3 times and Delaware twice.

The Southland (McNeese and Sam) and the Gateway (WKU and UNI) have two schools that have made runs, but for the most part their schools fizzle out in the first round.

The Big Sky might as well be called the Montana conference since they've made it to the Final Four three times and no other Big Sky team has made it to the Final Four since 1997. That's a great school, not a great conference.

Why do I bring this all up? I think its to counter the and the "step it up" arguments. It seems to me if you don't have an A10 or Southern Conference school on your OOC, then maybe your schedule isn't so tough either...

[SAME OLD G]

Based on 11 different computer models and human polls. What do you have to back up your wild accusations?

The human polls and the comuuter models.

[AppGuy04]

The human polls and the comuuter models.

computers are culturally biased???? :confused:

[89Hen]

The human polls and the comuuter models.
:confused: Spell it out for me. I don't want to assume anything about your thought process.

[AppGuy04]

is this guy for real? i hope he is just messing around

[SAME OLD G]

It seems like you want to have your cake and eat it to.
1. You don't want our respect and see no need to ditch your rivalries with other HBCUs to prove anything.
2. We're culturally biased because we don't rank three? four? five? (how many should be in there) HBCUs in the top 25.

If you want to keep things the way they are, I have no problem with that. I repsect that. If you don't need respect from us, I'll give you more respect. But to say this poll is racist is bull****. You spell out for me why I'm wrong. I really want to know.

Look here Flyboy...don't put words in my mouth. I don't give a uckf about quotas. I have never implied that there should be a certain number of HBCUs in the poll.

And I never said this poll was racist. However, the more you bring it up, the more it make me wonder. Hmmmmmmmm....

[SAME OLD G]

computers are culturally biased???? :confused:

Look man...don't play dumb with me. Who wrote the programs?

[AppGuy04]

Look here Flyboy...don't put words in my mouth. I don't give a uckf about quotas. I have never implied that there should be a certain number of HBCUs in the poll.

And I never said this poll was racist. However, the more you bring it up, the more it make me wonder. Hmmmmmmmm....

if you aren't referring to race, then what exact is this cultural bias that you keep mentioning, we've been asking that for a while now and u haven't answered, that would help alot, thanks

[AppGuy04]

Look man...don't play dumb with me. Who wrote the programs?

if you are implying that whoever wrote the program made it biased against HBCU's then that is ridiculous

for all you know an HBCU graduate could have written that thing

[FlyBoy8]

Culturally biased = racist. Don't play dumb with me.


Why don't you go over to the MEAC board. Most of the people over there know what's up. Go read this thread: http://www.meacfans.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/ubb/get_topic/f/43/t/007498/p/1.html

[SAME OLD G]

if you are implying that whoever wrote the program made it biased against HBCU's then that is ridiculous

Your're right. It would be ridiculous, but thats not what I am implying.

[SeattleGriz]

Your're right. It would be ridiculous, but thats not what I am implying.

C'mon man, just get to the point and tell us what you mean. I'm not even involved with this conversation, but your spoonfeeding is killing me with anticipation.

[AppGuy04]

Your're right. It would be ridiculous, but thats not what I am implying.

then get to the point and say what u gotta say

[AZGrizFan]

I agree Colgate13.

I would also like to add....its hard to fault ranking a team with no loses ahead of teams with 2 loses......
3. Hampton Pirates (23) 8-0 2,576 3
4. Montana Grizzlies (2) 6-2 2,491 5
5. Southern Illinois Salukis (1) 6-2 2,337 8
6. Western Kentucky Hilltoppers 6-2 2,131 1
7. Appalachian State Mountaineers 6-2 2,088 12
8. Massachusetts Minutemen 6-2 1,808 7

I do believe however that teams 4-8 would probably beat Hampton.

I don't see how, if that's the case then, that Hampton can be ranked ahead of them (4-8)??? Shouldn't you rank teams based on how you feel they are compared to each other? Playing 11 patsies to pad your schedule doesn't automatically mean they should rise to the top. SIU proved that last year. :nod: I know, I know--They have to play the schedule that's in front of them...so what?? Still doesn't make them the 3rd best team in America, just because they beat everybody in their weak conference...IMHO.

[GrizSweeper]

The A10 and the Southern are the only "power" conferences in my eyes, at least in recent years.

In order to be a power CONFERENCE there needs to be lots of depth, not just 1 or 2 schools with playoff success.

In the last 5 years, 4 different A10 and Southern Conference schools have advanced to the Final Four, with GSU making it 3 times and Delaware twice.

The Southland (McNeese and Sam) and the Gateway (WKU and UNI) have two schools that have made runs, but for the most part their schools fizzle out in the first round.

The Big Sky might as well be called the Montana conference since they've made it to the Final Four three times and no other Big Sky team has made it to the Final Four since 1997. That's a great school, not a great conference.

Why do I bring this all up? I think its to counter the and the "step it up" arguments. It seems to me if you don't have an A10 or Southern Conference school on your OOC, then maybe your schedule isn't so tough either...


how can you not call the bsc a power conference, it's been ranked as the toughest throughout the year, i dont care what teams have done in the past, it's about the here and now, wow JMU had a great team last year but that's not helpin em out now, top to bottom the bsc is tough its a dogfight every week and deserves to be called a power conference

[eaglesrthe1]

Damn, I think that SOG has broken the record for chain yanking. :lmao:

[skinny_uncle]

I don't see how, if that's the case then, that Hampton can be ranked ahead of them (4-8)??? Shouldn't you rank teams based on how you feel they are compared to each other? Playing 11 patsies to pad your schedule doesn't automatically mean they should rise to the top. SIU proved that last year. :nod: I know, I know--They have to play the schedule that's in front of them...so what?? Still doesn't make them the 3rd best team in America, just because they beat everybody in their weak conference...IMHO.
Improving schedules is probably not as simple as you (and others) make it sound. You imply that SIU played 11 patsies last year. I think you just insulted Delaware State, Northern Illinois (and the whole Mid-American Conference) along with the entire Gateway. Their other games were SEMO, a local rival who has dropped them from the schedule after this year and the one true patsy on their schedule, William Penn. They ended up 10-2 last year, losing by 1 point to DIA NIU and by 4 in the playoffs to EWU. What was it exactly they proved?
We don't know how good Hampton is yet. I think you have to respect anyone who is 8-0. It shows consistency, if nothing else. They may lose in the first round and still consider it a good year.

[FlyBoy8]

If Hampton loses in the first round, it will not be considered a good year. They're getting a home game (if they go undefeated) and they're not just "happy to be here." They want to show everyone they're for real, and if they don't, that'll be just as bad as if they missed the playoffs.

Personally, I think Hampton wins a game.

[kardplayer]

how can you not call the bsc a power conference, it's been ranked as the toughest throughout the year, i dont care what teams have done in the past, it's about the here and now, wow JMU had a great team last year but that's not helpin em out now, top to bottom the bsc is tough its a dogfight every week and deserves to be called a power conference



Sorry, until someone other than Montana proves their talent in the playoffs or OOC games, I don't buy the BSC as a power conference. Again, in order to be a power CONFERENCE, there needs to be depth and I just don’t see it.


Look at the tough, I-AA OOC games (vs. ranked or nearly ranked opponents) of the top 6/non-Montana teams


Montana State
- Lost to Cal Poly 38-10
- Beat NDSU 20-17
- Credit for close loss to Okla. State

EWU
- Cal Poly/UCD TBD


Weber State
- Lost to NDSU 41-0


Portland State
- Beat UCD 14-12
- Credit for close loss to BoiseState 21-14


Idaho State
- Cal Poly TBD


Lots of games still to play, but not exactly overwhelming success so far. 2-2, with a 41 point and 28 point loss and a 3 and 2 point win. Just because the BSC teams are beating each other, doesn't make it powerful. Maybe the Great West is the real power conference…


Compare the BSC’s results with the Southern or the A-10's top teams – and again, what makes them power conferences is that the top teams change every year. One year its Delaware, one year its JMU, another its New Hampshire.

New Hampshire
- Beat UCD 17-13

UMass
- Lost to Colgate 17-14

Richmond
- Lost to Lafayette 7-0

Hofstra
- Lost to Furman 44-41


Actually, the A-10 is even worse. Especially since three of these teams have spent most of the season on the “Others receiving votes” list. Their playoff record the last two years (6-1 last year and 4-1 the year before, all not counting games against each other, and by 4 different teams) tells me they are a power conference, but maybe they're slipping this year.


The Southern Conference is the true power conference 9-6 in the playoffs the last 5 years (again, not counting games against each other, 4 different teams won games) plus check out this year’s OOC


AppState
- Beat EKU 24-16
- Beat Coastal Carolina 30-3


Furman
- Beat JacksonvilleState 37-35
- Beat Hofstra 44-41


GSU
- Lost to McNeeseState 23-20
- Beat SDSU 55-42

At the end of the day, “power” is in the eye of the beholder, but I would argue that the non-Montana BSC’s record in OOC games this year, combined with their 2-6 playoff record over the last 5 years tells me that there is a lot of sizzle but not so much steak. Again, Montana is one of the elite teams of I-AA and they make the whole league look good, but that 2-6 playoff record is actually worse than the Gateway’s 3-6 record over the past two years that so many folks on this board take pleasure in picking on.

[SeattleGriz]

Montana State lost a close one to Oklahoma State 15-10 Sorry, just reread you stated I-AA.

[ASU Kep]

if we beat LSU you guys would never see me again, I'd prolly have a heart attack

you'd see me again...after I changed my pants and made MANY phone calls.