LFN: Sunday's Word: Train

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2008/09/sundays-word-train.html

Patriot League fans take note. And I'll be expounding on this later in the week as well.

[DetroitFlyer]

From LFN:

"What I generally do is I rank the Top 20 more or less how I feel they actually are nationally and then use 21-25 to put some of my "stretch picks" - the Albany's, the Stony Brook's, the Liberty's - that I'm keeping an eye on for the future and deserve some recognition."

Just cannot give props to the Flyers, can you? Not even as a so called "stretch pick".

For the record, I had both Fordham and Dayton in my top 25!

As I said on another thread, the Flyers defeated both the PL champion and the NEC champion last year. It is very possible that the same thing could happen again this year. Sad, really that you and many others just do not recognize a very good FCS team when you see one....

Oh and by the way, the sky is falling in the PL.... Pretty soon you will not be able to beat the Xaviers and Marquettes of the football world without athletic scholarships!xlolx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Just cannot give props to the Flyers, can you? Not even as a so called "stretch pick".

xrolleyesx

http://www.championshipsubdivisionnews.com/index.php?blog=5&title=csn-fcs-recap&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1


Flying Again?

The non-scholarship Pioneer Football League does not have an autobid into the FCS playoffs and has no path to the playoffs except to get to 7 division one wins and hope the playoff committee deems them worthy to be included in the playoffs as an at-large entry.

Defending PFL champion and “Gridiron Classic” winners Dayton would have to go undefeated to realistically be considered - and would probably need a win over a team from a playoff conference.

The Flyers did just that by beating the defending Patriot League champion Fordham Rams at home in an incredible 23-20 victory in Welcome Stadium.

...

If the Flyers find themselves in talks about an at-large playoff spot later in the year, they will be able to point to this key win against an FCS playoff participant last year as a reason why they ought to be invited.

[aceinthehole]

xrolleyesx

http://www.championshipsubdivisionnews.com/index.php?blog=5&title=csn-fcs-recap&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1

To give some more perspective, here's some cold, hard facts about how NEC teams have closed the gap on the PL.

Current NEC teams vs. current PL team (2000-07)

Duquesne* (8-8) - wins include Bucknell, Fordham (twice), Georgetown (twice), Holy Cross, and Lafayette
Monmouth (4-2) - wins include Colgate, Fordham, and Georgetown (twice)
Albany (3-4) - wins include Fordham (twice) and Lehigh
Central Conn. (1-1) - Colgate

Sacred Heart (0-2)
St. Francis PA (0-1)
Wagner* (0-1)

(*Duquesne was a member of the MAAC during this period; and both Dukes and Wagner played G-town in 2000 before they joined the PL with the Dukes winning and Wagner losing)

- EVERY CURRENT PL MEMBER has lost to a current NEC team at least once since 2000.

- This season, Bucknell won the only 2 games between NEC and PL teams, beating Duquesne by 6 and Robert Morris by 3 in their first ever game vs. a PL opponent.

[LehighFan11]

To give some more perspective, here's some cold, hard facts about how NEC teams have closed the gap on the PL.

Current NEC teams vs. current PL team (2000-07)

Duquesne* (8-8) - wins include Bucknell, Fordham (twice), Georgetown (twice), Holy Cross, and Lafayette
Monmouth (4-2) - wins include Colgate, Fordham, and Georgetown (twice)
Albany (3-4) - wins include Fordham (twice) and Lehigh
Central Conn. (1-1) - Colgate

Sacred Heart (0-2)
St. Francis PA (0-1)
Wagner* (0-1)

(*Duquesne was a member of the MAAC during this period; and both Dukes and Wagner played G-town in 2000 before they joined the PL with the Dukes winning and Wagner losing)

- EVERY CURRENT PL MEMBER has lost to a current NEC team at least once since 2000.

- This season, Bucknell won the only 2 games between NEC and PL teams, beating Duquesne by 6 and Robert Morris by 3 in their first ever game vs. a PL opponent.

Albany has my respect, no doubt. They have competed very well with the PL and CAA. I currently have them ranked 24th i believe.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Monmouth also beat Towson when they were a member of the Patriot League as well.

The biggest wins no doubt were when Albany beat Lehigh and Monmouth beat Colgate two years ago. Most of the rest were against teams that had struggled to compete (Holy Cross, Lafayette in 2000-2001, for example).

Before 2006, the NEC had a history of beating the lower-echelon teams of the Patriot League. Now, the best of the NEC are better than the best of the Patriot League at this point. That speaks volumes.

[aceinthehole]

Flyer - As I wrote in anothere thread, Dayton is a very good I-AA team. They have a few nice, quality wins. I really think Dayton would be a great fit in the PL (if the academics are right) or in the NEC.

Im just not sure about the PFL. Outside of Dayton and the good run by San Diego, the PFL is bad, very bad.

Here's what I found when looking back at the last 8 (2000-08) seasons in the PFL:

Dayton - 2-0 vs Fordham, 9-2 vs. the NEC, and a 69-18 (.793) overall record. However, you were also 0-2 vs. Yale, your only other signifigant non-conference opponent.

San Diego - 2-0 vs. Holy Cross, 2-1 vs. Yale, and 61-24 (.718) overall. However, they were 0-4 vs. the other Ivy opponents and 0-2 vs. UC-Davis during this period.

The rest of the PFL has no resume to speak of:

Butler - no wins of any signifigance; 21-69 overall (.297)
Valpo - no wins of any signifigance; 35-54 overall (.393)
Jacksonville - no wins of any signifigance; 31-51 (.378)
Morehead St. - no wins of any signifigance; 52-37 overall (.584)
Davidson - 2-4 vs. Georgetown*; 43-36 overall (.544)
Drake - 1-2 vs. Illinois State; 54-34 overall (.614)

*1-4 vs. G-town as a PL member

----
Since 2000 ...

- The PFL has 5 wins vs the Patriot League by 3 PFL teams (Davidson, Dayon, and USD).

- The PFL is 5-6 overall vs. the PL and has beat 3 PL opponents (Fordham, Georgetown, and Holy Cross).

- The PFL is 2-7 vs the Ivy League.

[aceinthehole]

Monmouth also beat Towson when they were a member of the Patriot League as well.

The biggest wins no doubt were when Albany beat Lehigh and Monmouth beat Colgate two years ago. Most of the rest were against teams that had struggled to compete (Holy Cross, Lafayette in 2000-2001, for example).

Before 2006, the NEC had a history of beating the lower-echelon teams of the Patriot League. Now, the best of the NEC are better than the best of the Patriot League at this point. That speaks volumes.


Yes, I know about the MU win over Towson, but I was just listing games vs. CURRENT PL members. (That's also why I'm including DU, because they are currently in the NEC).

Actually, CCSU over Colgate in 2005 was really the break through win for the NEC. Colgate was just 2 years removed from the 2003 NCAA Championship game. Colgate would follow up the home loss to CCSU by beating UMass and finish the regular season at 8-3. The Red Raiders won the PL and lost to New Hampshire in the playoffs. IMO - although the win at Georgia Southern got us more press, the win at Colgate was better one because they had a winning record that year and went to the playoffs (just like Dayton over Fordham last year).

[TheValleyRaider]

Yes, that 2005 game shouldn't be forgotten (much as I might want to xoopsx)

I think we all need to take a step back from the ledge just a bit

There is no hard and fast rule that says simply because a conference isn't very good (the Pioneer League, for example) doesn't mean that specific teams within that conference can't be good, or even very good (Dayton, for example)

So what did happen this weekend?

-Fordham, who we've already seen can compete with CAA opposition (demolishing Rhode Island) got beat in a close game on the road to an opponent, Dayton, who we have a reasonable body of recent evidence to suggest might, you know, be pretty solid
-Colgate and Lehigh lost to teams from power conferences in Furman and Villanova. The losses certainly don't look good, but these are teams that legitimately could be very strong within their own conferences, which are arguably the two toughest in the country. Furman is only ranked low, IMO, because their record last year suffered from an uncharacteristic bad start. They're one of the nation's top tier programs. Villanova nearly made the playoffs last year and returns much of that team. These are losses to really good teams

These kinds of things are not good cause for some of the self-flagellation that's happened here so far. Just as we shouldn't necessarily have been too sky-high over going 5-1 OOC the last week (with the 1 being a last-second FG loss), we should also reserve a little judgment here

Now, I'm not trying to be Pollyann-ish on the issue. I think the improvement of the NEC in particular is really hurting our image because we haven't allowed ourselves yet to immediately denote "good football" with it, in spite of plenty of evidence to the contrary. CCSU beating League champion Colgate in 2005 is a perfect example of that. I think scholarships would improve the overall quality of the conference, and the consistency, but I've been saying that for awhile now as well. I just don't think we need to be "woe is us" after one rough week. We could very well go 4-1 vs. the Ivies this weekend. Let's all just try not to lose our heads over some bad losses, because they happen, and will continue to happen in the future. Just as you are not as good or as bad as you look on Opening Day, so does 1 game not define an entire season, at least certainly not Game 2 or 3

[danefan]

Flyer - As I wrote in anothere thread, Dayton is a very good I-AA team. They have a few nice, quality wins. I really think Dayton would be a great fit in the PL (if the academics are right) or in the NEC.

Im just not sure about the PFL. Outside of Dayton and the good run by San Diego, the PFL is bad, very bad.

Here's what I found when looking back at the last 8 (2000-08) seasons in the PFL:

Dayton - 2-0 vs Fordham, 9-2 vs. the NEC, and a 69-18 (.793) overall record. However, you were also 0-2 vs. Yale, your only other signifigant non-conference opponent.

San Diego - 2-0 vs. Holy Cross, 2-1 vs. Yale, and 61-24 (.718) overall. However, they were 0-4 vs. the other Ivy opponents and 0-2 vs. UC-Davis during this period.

The rest of the PFL has no resume to speak of:

Butler - no wins of any signifigance; 21-69 overall (.297)
Valpo - no wins of any signifigance; 35-54 overall (.393)
Jacksonville - no wins of any signifigance; 31-51 (.378)
Morehead St. - no wins of any signifigance; 52-37 overall (.584)
Davidson - 2-4 vs. Georgetown*; 43-36 overall (.544)
Drake - 1-2 vs. Illinois State; 54-34 overall (.614)

*1-4 vs. G-town as a PL member

----
Since 2000 ...

- The PFL has 5 wins vs the Patriot League by 3 PFL teams (Davidson, Dayon, and USD).

- The PFL is 5-6 overall vs. the PL and has beat 3 PL opponents (Fordham, Georgetown, and Holy Cross).

- The PFL is 2-7 vs the Ivy League.

Save this post. Lots of research here.xthumbsupx

[MDFAN]

WOW!!!!!!!! The end must be near for the PL. Whether the PL has scholarships or not is not the end of the world. When my son was making his decision we were worried we would have to decide between Towson or Lehigh....which is better?

Luckily for him it came down to ODU or Bucknell but still which is better?

[Franks Tanks]

WOW!!!!!!!! The end must be near for the PL. Whether the PL has scholarships or not is not the end of the world. When my son was making his decision we were worried we would have to decide between Towson or Lehigh....which is better?

Luckily for him it came down to ODU or Bucknell but still which is better?

Better in what way? ODU and Towson are quite a bit different then Lehigh and Bucknell. Each have positives and negatives but you need to be a little more specific.

[DetroitFlyer]

xrolleyesx

http://www.championshipsubdivisionnews.com/index.php?blog=5&title=csn-fcs-recap&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1


OK, LFN, explain to me why anything you write concerning The Ivy League is not prefaced with "non-scholarship"? Your bias towards the PFL is so ingrained, that you do not even realize you are doing it when you write or comment. In fact, I would argue that your terminology is completely inaccurate and misleading.... The PFL AND Ivy League are, (now say this with me), non-ATHLETIC scholarship, FCS conferences. The vast majority of students that happen to play football in the PFL and Ivy League are receiving some type of non-ATHLETIC scholarship to attend their school of choice. Yeah, I understand that it galls fans like you and many here at AGS that a program like Dayton can attract FCS level players, and win games against "traditional" FCS programs. GET OVER IT!!!!!

When I traveled to Dayton last Saturday, I witnessed an epic game between FCS Dayton and FCS Fordham. Nothing more, nothing less! My Flyers prevailed in an extremely hard fought FCS contest.

Not really all that difficult to understand or appreciate.xrolleyesx

[colorless raider]

Yes, that 2005 game shouldn't be forgotten (much as I might want to xoopsx)

I think we all need to take a step back from the ledge just a bit

There is no hard and fast rule that says simply because a conference isn't very good (the Pioneer League, for example) doesn't mean that specific teams within that conference can't be good, or even very good (Dayton, for example)

So what did happen this weekend?

-Fordham, who we've already seen can compete with CAA opposition (demolishing Rhode Island) got beat in a close game on the road to an opponent, Dayton, who we have a reasonable body of recent evidence to suggest might, you know, be pretty solid
-Colgate and Lehigh lost to teams from power conferences in Furman and Villanova. The losses certainly don't look good, but these are teams that legitimately could be very strong within their own conferences, which are arguably the two toughest in the country. Furman is only ranked low, IMO, because their record last year suffered from an uncharacteristic bad start. They're one of the nation's top tier programs. Villanova nearly made the playoffs last year and returns much of that team. These are losses to really good teams

These kinds of things are not good cause for some of the self-flagellation that's happened here so far. Just as we shouldn't necessarily have been too sky-high over going 5-1 OOC the last week (with the 1 being a last-second FG loss), we should also reserve a little judgment here

Now, I'm not trying to be Pollyann-ish on the issue. I think the improvement of the NEC in particular is really hurting our image because we haven't allowed ourselves yet to immediately denote "good football" with it, in spite of plenty of evidence to the contrary. CCSU beating League champion Colgate in 2005 is a perfect example of that. I think scholarships would improve the overall quality of the conference, and the consistency, but I've been saying that for awhile now as well. I just don't think we need to be "woe is us" after one rough week. We could very well go 4-1 vs. the Ivies this weekend. Let's all just try not to lose our heads over some bad losses, because they happen, and will continue to happen in the future. Just as you are not as good or as bad as you look on Opening Day, so does 1 game not define an entire season, at least certainly not Game 2 or 3

Wake up Valley Raider, thie decline is a long term one. The League is slipping fast.

[DetroitFlyer]

From David Coulson's article:

http://www.sportsnetwork.com/merge/tsnform.aspx?c=sportsnetwork&page=cfoot2/misc/around_the_fcs.htm

"DEJA VU ALL OVER AGAIN

Fordham had circled its game at Dayton since dropping a 31-24 homecoming decision to the Flyers last season. But the Rams, coming off an impressive 16-0 opening-week victory over Rhode Island, fell victim to UD again.

Dayton hung on for a 23-20 win, due largely to the special teams play of Scott Vossler. Vossler blocked a punt in the final minute of the first half, and returned it 35 yards for a touchdown to give the Flyers a 21-7 edge at the break. After Fordham cut the score to 21-13 on John Skelton's quarterback sneak, Vossler blocked the Adam Danko extra point and teammate Joe Castenada scooped up the ball and returned it 90 yards for a two-point defensive conversion."

I have certainly had my disgreements with Mr. Coulson over the years, but notice how in this recent article there is no mention of "non-scholarship"? Time to give credit where credit is due.... Nice job David Coulson!!!!!

[letsgopards04]

OK, LFN, explain to me why anything you write concerning The Ivy League is not prefaced with "non-scholarship"? Your bias towards the PFL is so ingrained, that you do not even realize you are doing it when you write or comment. In fact, I would argue that your terminology is completely inaccurate and misleading.... The PFL AND Ivy League are, (now say this with me), non-ATHLETIC scholarship, FCS conferences. The vast majority of students that happen to play football in the PFL and Ivy League are receiving some type of non-ATHLETIC scholarship to attend their school of choice. Yeah, I understand that it galls fans like you and many here at AGS that a program like Dayton can attract FCS level players, and win games against "traditional" FCS programs. GET OVER IT!!!!!

When I traveled to Dayton last Saturday, I witnessed an epic game between FCS Dayton and FCS Fordham. Nothing more, nothing less! My Flyers prevailed in an extremely hard fought FCS contest.

Not really all that difficult to understand or appreciate.xrolleyesx



I think you missed the boat. No one is saying that Dayton can't get good players. Sure Dayton beat Fordham and should be congratulated but the whole of Dayton's schedule is weak (because of the other PFL teams) and will be judged as such come ranking time. Unless you move to a different conference or manage to play at least average competition every week people will discount Dayton despite themselves being a very good team.

[TheValleyRaider]

Wake up Valley Raider, thie decline is a long term one. The League is slipping fast.

I don't think we're declining, we're standing still. Lots of others are getting better around us, specifically the NEC. Is there something we can do about it? Sure, and we're not, which is the problem

I just don't think it's worth the overreaction it's getting simply because we had a bad week. If the sky is falling now, why was everything on the rise last week when we had a handful of wins? What will the reaction be if we go 4-1 vs. the Ivies this week?

[DetroitFlyer]

I think you missed the boat. No one is saying that Dayton can't get good players. Sure Dayton beat Fordham and should be congratulated but the whole of Dayton's schedule is weak (because of the other PFL teams) and will be judged as such come ranking time. Unless you move to a different conference or manage to play at least average competition every week people will discount Dayton despite themselves being a very good team.


More "non-scholarship" bias.... Albany loses to UMass by 12 and it is a "good" loss.... Why? Because Albany is an athletic scholarship team.... Drake loses to Lehigh by 19 and it is just expected because they are a "weak" non-scholarship team.... Morehead State loses to 2007 playoff team Eastern Kentucky by 8 and it is just expected because they too are a "weak" non-scholarship team....

Dayton, San Diego, Morehead State, and Drake are not "weak" FCS teams. Anyone of those four teams can compete with any team in FCS. Jacksonville seems to be improving in spite of their beating at App State. Davidson is typically solid and can normally compete with traditional FCS teams. Butler and Valparaiso have work to do, but even they are improving, abeit slowly.... As for Campbell.... First year team with a LONG way to go....

You missed the point. When folks here talk about the Ivy League, do they ever say "non-scholarship" Ivy League? Is Fordham playing "non-scholarship" Columbia this coming weekend? Outside of Harvard and Yale, explain to me how the Ivy League is a "powerful" conference....

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I don't think we're declining, we're standing still. Lots of others are getting better around us, specifically the NEC. Is there something we can do about it? Sure, and we're not, which is the problem

I just don't think it's worth the overreaction it's getting simply because we had a bad week. If the sky is falling now, why was everything on the rise last week when we had a handful of wins? What will the reaction be if we go 4-1 vs. the Ivies this week?

Read my piece again. Look closely at those wins, and look closer at the losses.

As for going 4-1 against the Ivy League, I've convinced that the great majority of FCS fans really could care less. They have no concept that Harvard and Yale are powerful Top 25 teams that would probably run deep in the playoffs on a regular basis. Unfortunately, the games on which we're measured nationally are against the CAA and SoCon, and we haven't just lost them, we've lost bad. Add to that the losses to Dayton, Stony Brook...

The league looks like they are headed once again to a future where they need to justify how good they are nationally because they beat Harvard, Yale, or Brown. Holy Cross could beat Harvard this Friday, but when they go hat-in-hand for a possible at-large playoff berth there will very likely be more talk about their close-call loss to UMass instead of their win over Harvard.

[aceinthehole]

Dayton, San Diego, Morehead State, and Drake are not "weak" FCS teams. Anyone of those four teams can compete with any team in FCS. Jacksonville seems to be improving in spite of their beating at App State. Davidson is typically solid and can normally compete with traditional FCS teams. Butler and Valparaiso have work to do, but even they are improving, abeit slowly.... As for Campbell.... First year team with a LONG way to go....

DF - back up your statement with facts!

How many WINS do those 4 teams have vs. AQ-conference teams?

The top 4 teams in the NEC each have at least 2 wins vs. AQ-conference teams.

According to my research, only 2 PFL teams (Dayon and USD) have at least 2 wins vs. AQ-conference teams. Drake and Morehead St. have just 1 win each vs. an AQ-conference team.

Do me a favor and list each PFL teams' record vs. sub-DI opponents since 2000? (If you do it, I'll do the same for the NEC)

The fact is Dayton is good, but you can't say that about the rest of the PFL. Its not about schollys, but WINS vs. the "Old Guard."

[DFW HOYA]

Dayton, San Diego, Morehead State, and Drake are not "weak" FCS teams. Anyone of those four teams can compete with any team in FCS.

Pioneer, Ivy, NEC, and Patriot teams are all considered weak by the majority of I-AA teams. Unfortunately, that's a given.

[danefan]

More "non-scholarship" bias.... Albany loses to UMass by 12 and it is a "good" loss.... Why? Because Albany is an athletic scholarship team.... Drake loses to Lehigh by 19 and it is just expected because they are a "weak" non-scholarship team.... Morehead State loses to 2007 playoff team Eastern Kentucky by 8 and it is just expected because they too are a "weak" non-scholarship team....

Dayton, San Diego, Morehead State, and Drake are not "weak" FCS teams. Anyone of those four teams can compete with any team in FCS. Jacksonville seems to be improving in spite of their beating at App State. Davidson is typically solid and can normally compete with traditional FCS teams. Butler and Valparaiso have work to do, but even they are improving, abeit slowly.... As for Campbell.... First year team with a LONG way to go....

You missed the point. When folks here talk about the Ivy League, do they ever say "non-scholarship" Ivy League? Is Fordham playing "non-scholarship" Columbia this coming weekend? Outside of Harvard and Yale, explain to me how the Ivy League is a "powerful" conference....

I'll just jump on the Albany comment: Albany's loss to UMAss by 12 was a good loss because of the way Albany played. Drake got spanked by Lehigh. Drake never had a chance. Albany led UMass. Plus, Lehigh is no UMass.

Second, Morehead is a weak FCS team. They lost to Robert Morris who is also a weak FCS team.

I agree with you that the PFL is no different then the Ivy. The problem is history. The PFL has none. The teams with history in the PFL were not PFL teams at the time. The Ivy teams were at one point the best teams in the nation. That sticks in people minds, even though it doesn't mean jack squat for today's games.

I'm not even so sure San Diego is good. Johnson graduates and now the best player in the PFL is out for the season. Sure they're 2-0 but they once again have failed to schedule anyone worthwhile until the very last game of the season.

I have all the respect in the world for Dayton. Always been a solid program. Dayton would be a top NEC, MEAC, PL and Big South team. No doubt about it. That's why they're no 24 in my poll this week.

There is no reason anyone else in the PFL should get any respect right now.

[letsgopards04]

DF - back up your statement with facts!

How many WINS do those 4 teams have vs. AQ-conference teams?

The top 4 teams in the NEC each have at least 2 wins vs. AQ-conference teams.

According to my research, only 2 PFL teams (Dayon and USD) have at least 2 wins vs. AQ-conference teams. Drake and Morehead St. have just 1 win each vs. an AQ-conference team.

Do me a favor and list each PFL teams' record vs. sub-DI opponents since 2000? (If you do it, I'll do the same for the NEC)

The fact is Dayton is good, but you can't say that about the rest of the PFL. Its not about schollys, but WINS vs. the "Old Guard."



Thank you.

[OL FU]

Pioneer, Ivy, NEC, and Patriot teams are all considered weak by the majority of I-AA teams. Unfortunately, that's a given.

The difficulty with the PL and Ivy's being consider weak is the perpetual circle of lack of comparable OOC scheduling. The PL gets beat by the power conferences and then beats the Ivies who typically don't schedule the power conferences. Right or wrong it is tough to blame the majority of FCS fans for that perception.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Pioneer, Ivy, NEC, and Patriot teams are all considered weak by the majority of I-AA teams. Unfortunately, that's a given.


The difficulty with the PL and Ivy's being consider weak is the perpetual circle of lack of comparable OOC scheduling. The PL gets beat by the power conferences and then beats the Ivies who typically don't schedule the power conferences. Right or wrong it is tough to blame the majority of FCS fans for that perception.

The crux of the problem is the Ivy League does a horrible job promoting football on the national stage. 2007 featured a Havard/Yale game that faced both going undefeated in the Ivy League and one team looking to go undefeated - and the rest of FCS simply yawned. Shouldn't that have had some sort of national promotion?

By osmosis, Patriot League football wins against Harvard - despite the fact that they are truly a powerhouse team year in and year out - are also not well promoted. And when the playoffs come along, the Patriot League have to become salesmen and do what the Ivy League is failing to do: promote their product as a reason for them to be in the playoffs.

Ivy games, IMO, are a no-win situation for the Patriot League nationally. Win, and it's greeted with a ho-hum. Lose to (say) a Penn with RB Joe Sandberg, who gets injured the next week and ends at 4-6 - how are you going to convince voters that Penn was a title contender with him, and bad without him?

The best of the Patriot League need to win - or at least be competitive - against the best teams on offer in the CAA at a bare minimum, and also against the Big South, NEC and SoCon too if possible.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

More "non-scholarship" bias.... Albany loses to UMass by 12 and it is a "good" loss.... Why? Because Albany is an athletic scholarship team.... Drake loses to Lehigh by 19 and it is just expected because they are a "weak" non-scholarship team.... Morehead State loses to 2007 playoff team Eastern Kentucky by 8 and it is just expected because they too are a "weak" non-scholarship team....

Dayton, San Diego, Morehead State, and Drake are not "weak" FCS teams. Anyone of those four teams can compete with any team in FCS. Jacksonville seems to be improving in spite of their beating at App State. Davidson is typically solid and can normally compete with traditional FCS teams. Butler and Valparaiso have work to do, but even they are improving, abeit slowly.... As for Campbell.... First year team with a LONG way to go....

You missed the point. When folks here talk about the Ivy League, do they ever say "non-scholarship" Ivy League? Is Fordham playing "non-scholarship" Columbia this coming weekend? Outside of Harvard and Yale, explain to me how the Ivy League is a "powerful" conference....

Pretty simple solution for you to prove that. xoopsx

1. Get your league to request an AQ for the playoffs.
2. Play some of those "any team in FCS" within the OOC schedule.

Sorry, but until those things happen and the PFL actually wins those games, you'll continue to be howling at the moon around here.

xpeacex xpeacex xpeacex xpeacex

[Franks Tanks]

Pretty simple solution for you to prove that. xoopsx

1. Get your league to request an AQ for the playoffs.
2. Play some of those "any team in FCS" within the OOC schedule.

Sorry, but until those things happen and the PFL actually wins those games, you'll continue to be howling at the moon around here.

xpeacex xpeacex xpeacex xpeacex

The biggest problem seems to be the tremendous about of sub D-I games played by the PFL. Has Butler and Valpo even played an FCS team yet? Take you schedules to all D-I , or 90 plus % D-I, and I think the AQ or at least some at large spots will follow.

[OL FU]

The crux of the problem is the Ivy League does a horrible job promoting football on the national stage. 2007 featured a Havard/Yale game that faced both going undefeated in the Ivy League and one team looking to go undefeated - and the rest of FCS simply yawned. Shouldn't that have had some sort of national promotion?

.

xnodx I don't disagree but whether it is promotion or ooc scheduling, I will take the later. Once again two undefeated IVY league teams playing each other gets a yawn because people have nothing to compare.


I agree playing the Ivies gets you nothing but satisfying the historic relationship. It would help if the Ivies would follow Princeton's lead and play MEAC and SoCon instead of just the NE teams or the occasional trip to San Diego. xnodx

[RabidRabbit]

The biggest problem seems to be the tremendous about of sub D-I games played by the PFL. Has Butler and Valpo even played an FCS team yet? Take you schedules to all D-I , or 90 plus % D-I, and I think the AQ or at least some at large spots will follow.

In their transition year(s) both SDSU/NDSU played Valpo. Both absolutely slaughtered Valpo. Because of those games, Valpo promised their players to NEVER play another FCS scholly team, even those in transition.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The biggest problem seems to be the tremendous about of sub D-I games played by the PFL. Has Butler and Valpo even played an FCS team yet? Take you schedules to all D-I , or 90 plus % D-I, and I think the AQ or at least some at large spots will follow.

Butler beat D-III Albion the first week of the season 20-6 - their first win over Albion since 2001. However, they lost to D-III Franklin the following week 31-28. The Bulldogs haven't won a game against a D-I opponent since they beat Valpo in 2005, and haven't won a Division I out-of-conference game since they beat St. Francis in 2000 - back when the NEC was need-based aid.

Carry on.

xpopcornx

[DetroitFlyer]

In their transition year(s) both SDSU/NDSU played Valpo. Both absolutely slaughtered Valpo. Because of those games, Valpo promised their players to NEVER play another FCS scholly team, even those in transition.


That was true at the time. Valparaiso is working to improve their program and will be scheduling traditional FCS teams in the future if my memory is correct. I seem to recall that sometime in the next couple of years, Valparaiso is going to play Youngstown State.

[Franks Tanks]

Butler beat D-III Albion the first week of the season 20-6 - their first win over Albion since 2001. However, they lost to D-III Franklin the following week 31-28. The Bulldogs haven't won a game against a D-I opponent since they beat Valpo in 2005, and haven't won a Division I out-of-conference game since they beat St. Francis in 2000 - back when the NEC was need-based aid.

Carry on.

xpopcornx

The PFL shouldnt be punished just because one or two teams perform poorly on ocassion, but the bottom half overall of the PFL is not very good. Yes Dayton and San Diego and possibly Morehead have fielded some quality teams of late, but overall all those D-III games really hurts the conference. I am aware of the destruction Valpo took at the hands of the "Dakota States" it really is disappointing to hear Valpo wont even consider scheduling a full scholly team, hence the poor overall perception of the league. All conferences will have sub-par teams but when a school comes out and says we wont even consider such games is a problem.

[Go...gate]

xnodx I don't disagree but whether it is promotion or ooc scheduling, I will take the later. Once again two undefeated IVY league teams playing each other gets a yawn because people have nothing to compare.


I agree playing the Ivies gets you nothing but satisfying the historic relationship. It would help if the Ivies would follow Princeton's lead and play MEAC and SoCon instead of just the NE teams or the occasional trip to San Diego. xnodx

Right. Gary Walters (PU's AD) likes the relationship with the PL, but he also likes the intersectonal game from time to time. Hampton was a good example and Citadel will be also. I won't be surprised if William & Mary and/or Furman also find their way onto the Tiger sked in future seasons.

[letsgopards04]

The PFL shouldnt be punished just because one or two teams perform poorly on ocassion, but the bottom half overall of the PFL is not very good. Yes Dayton and San Diego and possibly Morehead have fielded some quality teams of late, but overall all those D-III games really hurts the conference. I am aware of the destruction Valpo took at the hands of the "Dakota States" it really is disappointing to hear Valpo wont even consider scheduling a full scholly team, hence the poor overall perception of the league. All conferences will have sub-par teams but when a school comes out and says we wont even consider such games is a problem.


Imagine the wrath of 'Flyer if the Patriot League routinely lined up against NESCAC schools. If you are gonna play schools 2 divisions below yours, JOIN them.

[DetroitFlyer]

Imagine the wrath of 'Flyer if the Patriot League routinely lined up against NESCAC schools. If you are gonna play schools 2 divisions below yours, JOIN them.

Uh.... The NCAA has already ruled on that option. It has been referred to as the "Dayton Rule".

As for the NESCAC, I have no doubt that their best team(s), year in and year out could win some games against the PL.... I give credit to the PL for not playing these games.... If you do not play them, you cannot lose them!

Still, I worry about programs like Georgetown.... Losing all of the time, year after year, may not be the best strategy for keeping the program long term. Perhaps if Georgetown played a Butler like schedule and could hit 6 to 8 wins most years, year in and year out, support for the program would improve.... The last winning season at Georgetown was back in 1999when they were in the MAAC.... Like it or not, the fans that follow our programs do not really care if we are playing an FCS, Division II, Division III or NAIA team. To them, it is all just small college football.... Fans do care, however, when your team loses all of the time....

[aceinthehole]

Uh.... The NCAA has already ruled on that option. It has been referred to as the "Dayton Rule".

As for the NESCAC, I have no doubt that their best team(s), year in and year out could win some games against the PL.... I give credit to the PL for not playing these games.... If you do not play them, you cannot lose them!

Still, I worry about programs like Georgetown.... Losing all of the time, year after year, may not be the best strategy for keeping the program long term. Perhaps if Georgetown played a Butler like schedule and could hit 6 to 8 wins most years, year in and year out, support for the program would improve.... The last winning season at Georgetown was back in 1999when they were in the MAAC.... Like it or not, the fans that follow our programs do not really care if we are playing an FCS, Division II, Division III or NAIA team. To them, it is all just small college football.... Fans do care, however, when your team loses all of the time....

A fair point. However, PFL fans shouldn't be clamoring for an AQ or at-large bid to the I-AA playoffs if they are happy winning games vs. D-III and NAIA programs.

I also think its reasonable to say that Dayton, would probably have done as good, or better, than Georgetown has in the PL.

[Franks Tanks]

Uh.... The NCAA has already ruled on that option. It has been referred to as the "Dayton Rule".

As for the NESCAC, I have no doubt that their best team(s), year in and year out could win some games against the PL.... I give credit to the PL for not playing these games.... If you do not play them, you cannot lose them!

Still, I worry about programs like Georgetown.... Losing all of the time, year after year, may not be the best strategy for keeping the program long term. Perhaps if Georgetown played a Butler like schedule and could hit 6 to 8 wins most years, year in and year out, support for the program would improve.... The last winning season at Georgetown was back in 1999when they were in the MAAC.... Like it or not, the fans that follow our programs do not really care if we are playing an FCS, Division II, Division III or NAIA team. To them, it is all just small college football.... Fans do care, however, when your team loses all of the time....


The best teams is the NESAC couldnt beat a team made up of AGS'sers. They are not good even by D-III standards and rarely play out of their conference. Stop making excuses for playing and losing too D-III anbd NAIA teams. Games once in a while are fine--all the time is the reason why your league doesnt get any respect.

[DetroitFlyer]

A fair point. However, PFL fans shouldn't be clamoring for an AQ or at-large bid to the I-AA playoffs if they are happy winning games vs. D-III and NAIA programs.

I also think its reasonable to say that Dayton, would probably have done as good, or better, than Georgetown has in the PL.

The fans of teams "clamoring" for a bid to the playoffs are not loading up their schedules with sub-Divison I teams. Dayton was 9-1 in FCS when playoff bids were extended last year. After the Gridiron Classic, they were 10-1 versus FCS with wins over two FCS conference champions. Yeah, it must just be a fluke that the PFL with so many "weak" teams could possibly produce such a team.... And we surely do not want a team in the FCS playoffs that can defeat two FCS conference champions in any given season....xrolleyesx

[danefan]

The fans of teams "clamoring" for a bid to the playoffs are not loading up their schedules with sub-Divison I teams. Dayton was 9-1 in FCS when playoff bids were extended last year. After the Gridiron Classic, they were 10-1 versus FCS with wins over two FCS conference champions. Yeah, it must just be a fluke that the PFL with so many "weak" teams could possibly produce such a team.... And we surely do not want a team in the FCS playoffs that can defeat two FCS conference champions in any given season....xrolleyesx

You keep saying that Dayton has been "produced" by the PFL....

I don't understand that argument. Dayton has produced itself. Mike Kelly built the Dayton program to what it is today. the PFL really did nothing but hold it back. Had Dayton been in a conference that didn't get dragged down by Butler, Valpo, etc....it would be in a much better position than Dayton is right now.

Same goes for Albany. I don't like the fact that Albany is in the NEC. Albany wasn't produced by the NEC. Albany today was produced by Bob Ford and the demanding schedules he has played the past 9 years in DI.

[aceinthehole]

You keep saying that Dayton has been "produced" by the PFL....

I don't understand that argument. Dayton has produced itself. Mike Kelly built the Dayton program to what it is today. the PFL really did nothing but hold it back. Had Dayton been in a conference that didn't get dragged down by Butler, Valpo, etc....it would be in a much better position than Dayton is right now.

Same goes for Albany. I don't like the fact that Albany is in the NEC. Albany wasn't produced by the NEC. Albany today was produced by Bob Ford and the demanding schedules he has played the past 9 years in DI.

Whoa! The NEC and has moved from grants-in-aid to 40 schollys (63% of the NCAA limit for FCS). We have an AQ coming in 2010. CCSU was nationally ranked. Monmouth has big OOC wins. You have a rivalry with teams and are very competative. The NEC didn't build UA football, but we gave you a great home to grow.

Albany has done great things for the NEC too, but please be real. Your current stadium is the worst in the NEC! The NEC can be as good as the PL, Big South, MEAC, or OVC if we keep on working hard. Yes, the CAA is a great conference, but that aint happening for you anytime soon, so I'd just worry about making the playoffs from the NEC. We aren't holding you back like the PFL is doing to Dayton, we're actually helping!

[danefan]

Whoa! The NEC and has moved from grants-in-aid to 40 schollys (63% of the NCAA limit for FCS). We have an AQ coming in 2010. CCSU was nationally ranked. Monmouth has big OOC wins. You have a rivalry with teams and are very competative. The NEC didn't build UA football, but we gave you a great home to grow.

Albany has done great things for the NEC too, but please be real. Your current stadium is the worst in the NEC! The NEC can be as good as the PL, Big South, MEAC, or OVC if we keep on working hard. Yes, the CAA is a great conference, but that aint happening for you anytime soon, so I'd just worry about making the playoffs from the NEC. We aren't holding you back like the PFL is doing to Dayton, we're actually helping!

2 scholarships a year until 40 is a snail's pace and will hurt Albany.

Sorry, Ace, but as long as there are teams in the NEC willing to schedule down and that are not fully committed to competing for FCS national championships then the NEC is holding Albany back. (psst....its also holding CCSU and Monmouth back).

The goal at Albany (for fans and donors at least) is to win National Championships. To do that consistently you really need to be at 63 rides.

And I agree about the stadium. No getting around that issue.

[aceinthehole]

2 scholarships a year until 40 is a snail's pace and will hurt Albany.

Sorry, Ace, but as long as there are teams in the NEC willing to schedule down and that are not fully committed to competing for FCS national championships then the NEC is holding Albany back. (psst....its also holding CCSU and Monmouth back).

The goal at Albany (for fans and donors at least) is to win National Championships. To do that consistently you really need to be at 63 rides.

And I agree about the stadium. No getting around that issue.

Dane - I agree its a slow move, but honestly its better than no move at all.

Personally, I think SBU made a mistake heading to the Big South, but don't you think Albany had that same decision? I bet your AD decided to stay in the NEC because they didn't mind the "ramp up" to schollys. Why didn't you leave then?

Don't believe all you read on a message board. Despite what some UA fans say, Albany might not have the money for 63 rides today anyway. Because if they did, they'd be at the NEC limit of 32 (like CCSU) or they would have gone to the BS with Stony Brook.

According to your own coach, you have just 1 player on full scholarship (they rest are partials). In the NEC teleconference, I think Coach Foard said Albany was at 28 or 30 schollys.


''It's probably not in the top five but it's certainly in the top ten,'' Ford said Monday. ''Hofstra has 63 full scholarships. We have one. The kids played very well and I'm proud and happy for them.''

What fans want, and the reality an AD has to deal with are 2 different things. Trust me, CCSU fans are in the same boat as Albany in many ways (lack of state funding).

:)

[Go...gate]

The best teams is the NESAC couldn't beat a team made up of AGS'sers. They are not good even by D-III standards and never play out of their conference. Stop making excuses for playing and losing to D-III and NAIA teams. Games once in a while are fine--all the time is the reason why your league doesn't get any respect.

I'm glad someone pointed this out. I also changed it to indicate that the NESCAC plays NO non-conference games by design. Their programs are essentially hogtied by the Presidents of their respective colleges.

[danefan]

Dane - I agree its a slow move, but honestly its better than no move at all.

Personally, I think SBU made a mistake heading to the Big South, but don't you think Albany had that same decision? I bet your AD decided to stay in the NEC because they didn't mind the "ramp up" to schollys. Why didn't you leave then?

I think (not confirmed) that at the time the AD believed the NEC would allow an increase to 40 next year. And if he knew it was going to be this slow then I am coming to conclusion that not moving may have been a mistake.

Don't believe all you read on a message board. Despite what some UA fans say, Albany might not have the money for 63 rides today anyway. Because if they did, they'd be at the NEC limit of 32 (like CCSU) or they would have gone to the BS with Stony Brook.

Not message board fodder. But solid info from UA admins that UA has the money set aside already for 63 rides and has had it for some time.

According to your own coach, you have just 1 player on full scholarship (they rest are partials). In the NEC teleconference, I think Coach Foard said Albany was at 28 or 30 schollys.

One player on full scholarship (Andrew Smith) who is redshirting. That is correct. The rest are partials. And I was told during the summer that all 32 were given out.

What fans want, and the reality an AD has to deal with are 2 different things. Trust me, CCSU fans are in the same boat as Albany in many ways (lack of state funding).

:)

[letsgopards04]

Uh.... The NCAA has already ruled on that option. It has been referred to as the "Dayton Rule".

As for the NESCAC, I have no doubt that their best team(s), year in and year out could win some games against the PL.... I give credit to the PL for not playing these games.... If you do not play them, you cannot lose them!

Still, I worry about programs like Georgetown.... Losing all of the time, year after year, may not be the best strategy for keeping the program long term. Perhaps if Georgetown played a Butler like schedule and could hit 6 to 8 wins most years, year in and year out, support for the program would improve.... The last winning season at Georgetown was back in 1999when they were in the MAAC.... Like it or not, the fans that follow our programs do not really care if we are playing an FCS, Division II, Division III or NAIA team. To them, it is all just small college football.... Fans do care, however, when your team loses all of the time....


You give us credit for not playing NESCAC schools. I was being facetious. I don't think any PL teams in their right mind would schedule a NESCAC team. The league I think should lose its autobib for pulling crap like that.