Patriot League Expansion (Again)

[carney2]

Keith Groller, who handles the Lehigh beat for the Allentown (PA) Morning Call, does a Patriot League roundup every week. This week's article, under the headline, "PL looking to add schools" included the following from Lehigh head coach, Andy Coen:

"In 2010, the schedules will be re-aligned [condensed to an 11-week period that will eliminate bye weeks and flexibility] and the FCS playoffs will be expanded. Scheduling is already a challenge and will become more difficult when that happens."

''The best way to make things easier is to get more league games so you have more dates locked in. I don't know of any program in our league that isn't in favor of us expanding.''

The brief article ends with the following from Groller:

"Carolyn Schlie Femovich, the league's executive director, has talked about expansion for years, but now time may really be of the essence."

There seems to be agreement that not much worthwhile will happen without football scholarships. Since there is no known movement on that front, and since no one is naming names for expansion candidates, I am assuming same old, same old, business as usual in this sit on your butts, do nothing League.

[LUHawker]

Wasn't LFN going to publish his interview with Carolyn Schlie Femovich a few weeks back? I don't recall seeing it; did I miss it?

What's the deal, LFN?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Wasn't LFN going to publish his interview with Carolyn Schlie Femovich a few weeks back? I don't recall seeing it; did I miss it?

What's the deal, LFN?

I still have the interview, waiting to transcribe - I didn't publish it since the CSN site was having so many problems.

It's on the back burner for publication. I think I'll end up putting in on my blog - maybe next week, if I can find some time somewhere.

-----------------------------------------------

What I will say is this: I think Ms. Femovich honestly does see the need for expansion. In her opening statements on Media Day she made special mention to talk about it that there were "talks" at the presidential level on this.

As to who that might be, I have suspicions, but no firm evidence.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

The core group of schools are strong enough the couldy force their hand. Either push through scholarships or consider another option. Lehigh, Lafayette, Colgate, and Bucknell i believe have enough push if they want something to happen they can do it. There is viable options under the current rules but the candidate pool greatly expands with schollies.

[Fordham]

I still have the interview, waiting to transcribe - I didn't publish it since the CSN site was having so many problems.

It's on the back burner for publication. I think I'll end up putting in on my blog - maybe next week, if I can find some time somewhere.

-----------------------------------------------

What I will say is this: I think Ms. Femovich honestly does see the need for expansion. In her opening statements on Media Day she made special mention to talk about it that there were "talks" at the presidential level on this.

As to who that might be, I have suspicions, but no firm evidence.

so who are we most suspicious of?
:)

[DFW HOYA]

Three comments:

1. Absent scholarship reform (something that will be marooned in the talking stages), the number of expansion targets is probably left with Marist and Iona. A 30-scholarship NEC team isn't turning back if they can afford it.

2. Even assuming scholarship reform, the number of candidates is dwindling. W&M is off the table, UR isn't coming back without an institutional fistfight, and Villanova would resist it as well. What's left, Duquesne and Monmouth?

3. Scholarship reform, IMO, is insufficient without taking a much larger look at the academic index. The point is, an existing scholarship school that enjoys the advantages of schoalrship football and the National Letter of Intent program will not give this up to employ the academic index.

[carney2]

The core group of schools are strong enough the couldy force their hand. Either push through scholarships or consider another option. Lehigh, Lafayette, Colgate, and Bucknell i believe have enough push if they want something to happen they can do it. There is viable options under the current rules but the candidate pool greatly expands with schollies.

As has been pointed out here more than once, the "core group of schools" is not of one mind, and each has its own set of problems and its own agenda. Although each of these 4 might end up supporting football scholarships to one degree or another, only one (Colgate) appears inclined to pick up the rope and pull the wagon at this time.

[carney2]

so who are we most suspitious of?
:)

As DFW points out, we appear to be left with some choices that would not go down well for many on this board. I would doubt if LFN's list of suspects greatly improves on this.

[the last indian]

With respect to DFW Hoya's views, my information on Villanova is different, that is, they would certainly consider it, IF we allowed scholarships. You maybe correct about UofR and W&M though that would be my dream league, from the standpoint of the academic cohesion, name recognition and geographical spread. For me Marist, Duquesne or Monmonth would not be on a par with the rest of the league and represent a step backward.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

What do folks think of Monmouth? I have a very hard time picturing them in the Patriot League in all sports, but when I look at private schools in the Eastern footprint I keep reluctantly looking in their direction time and again.

My problem is that they really don't offer much to what I think the Patriot League and their presidents care about: men's basketball prowess and academic cachet. I can only imagine the jokes that would come out - and the academic outrage in some circles - if the school that gave Jon Bon Jovi an honorary degree became a member of the Patriot League.

What they do offer is a decent academic profile and a decent overall athletics program, with a forte in football. However, as DFW said, it's unlikely that they'd give up football scholarships to join the PL, and with an autobid in 2010 it's even less likely.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

What do folks think of Monmouth? I have a very hard time picturing them in the Patriot League in all sports, but when I look at private schools in the Eastern footprint I keep reluctantly looking in their direction time and again.

My problem is that they really don't offer much to what I think the Patriot League and their presidents care about: men's basketball prowess and academic cachet. I can only imagine the jokes that would come out - and the academic outrage in some circles - if the school that gave Jon Bon Jovi an honorary degree became a member of the Patriot League.

What they do offer is a decent academic profile and a decent overall athletics program, with a forte in football. However, as DFW said, it's unlikely that they'd give up football scholarships to join the PL, and with an autobid in 2010 it's even less likely.

[letsgopards04]

What do folks think of Monmouth? I have a very hard time picturing them in the Patriot League in all sports, but when I look at private schools in the Eastern footprint I keep reluctantly looking in their direction time and again.

My problem is that they really don't offer much to what I think the Patriot League and their presidents care about: men's basketball prowess and academic cachet. I can only imagine the jokes that would come out - and the academic outrage in some circles - if the school that gave Jon Bon Jovi an honorary degree became a member of the Patriot League.

What they do offer is a decent academic profile and a decent overall athletics program, with a forte in football. However, as DFW said, it's unlikely that they'd give up football scholarships to join the PL, and with an autobid in 2010 it's even less likely.


Here here. I think this is the same problem that Marist and Iona bring to the table. Average academics (comparatively) and average athletics.

To the board: Has Stony Brook been vetted? They seem to be committed to getting better in athletics and they are a very good academic school.

[aceinthehole]

[QUOTE=DFW HOYA;1087287]Three comments:

1. Absent scholarship reform (something that will be marooned in the talking stages), the number of expansion targets is probably left with Marist and Iona. A 30-scholarship NEC team isn't turning back if they can afford it.
[QUOTE]

DFW - not so sure on that.

From what I rembebr hearing Albany (and I think one or both of the other SUNYs) inquired about full PL membership when going D-I. I'd think ALbany would consider a move to the PL for FB-only, but I'm not sure that's what you're looking for. I'm not sure if the PL wants a public school, expecially one that can move to the top of the standings very quickly.

Although Duquesne just joind the NEC as an affiliate, if they can spend some money, I think they too would consider PL as a FB-only option. I'm not sure if the have the cash evenm under your academic-aid model, but who know.

Monmouth, IMO has made hints that they would like love to be considered by the PL. As you may know, the have a new hoops arena under constructiuon, and I think would leave the NEC in a second for an all-sports menbership in the PL. (If I were them, I would too)

Wagner and Sacred Heart would probably be interested too, if the PL ever looked in their direction. Both probably don't have the fiscal resources to be too competative in football, but it would certainly help their academic reputating nad recruiting. If it was a full-memebrship offer, they would be stupid to pass on it.

CCSU, Bobby Mo, and SFPA just don't have the academic profile to even be considered a longshot.

[aceinthehole]

What do folks think of Monmouth? I have a very hard time picturing them in the Patriot League in all sports, but when I look at private schools in the Eastern footprint I keep reluctantly looking in their direction time and again.

My problem is that they really don't offer much to what I think the Patriot League and their presidents care about: men's basketball prowess and academic cachet. I can only imagine the jokes that would come out - and the academic outrage in some circles - if the school that gave Jon Bon Jovi an honorary degree became a member of the Patriot League.

What they do offer is a decent academic profile and a decent overall athletics program, with a forte in football. However, as DFW said, it's unlikely that they'd give up football scholarships to join the PL, and with an autobid in 2010 it's even less likely.

Are you kidding?? On the athletics side, they are arguably the best program in the NEC. They have won the commissioner cup many times.

In basketball, they have been to the NCAAs 3 times in the past decade and have a new 4k arena under construction on-campus. No offense, but outside of Bucknell and HC, they would easily be one of the better programs in the PL. Outside of those 2 teams, the PL isn't much better than most of the NEC in hoops.

Monmouth has the ATHLETIC profile for the PL today! That is not a question.

I let PL fans discuss the academic merits of MU. Generally, I agree with you, they have a decent, but slowly improving, academic profile. Is that good enough for PL Presidents (and fans)? - I don't know.

[danefan]

Stony Brook is full scholarship now. Why would they move back down?

And they don't fit the profile for a PL school at all. 20,000 student public school.

[Pard94]

Here is my dream list. These schools simply make the list based on largely the academic profile as well as the potential to fit athletically. Geography also plays a role. I acknowlede that there may be a whole lot of hoops to jump through to make any of these happen. Indeed some would have to make wholesale changes to the levels at which they compete in some sports. This is more of a list of schools that I would be happy to have join the PL. Just a fantasy really. Incidentally, Georgetown topped this list before they joined so it could happen.

Johns Hopkins
Carnegie Mellon
William & Mary
Villanova
University of Richmond
Boston University (bring back football)
RPI

That's the short list anyway. Just for fun.

[aceinthehole]

Here here. I think this is the same problem that Marist and Iona bring to the table. Average academics (comparatively) and average athletics.

To the board: Has Stony Brook been vetted? They seem to be committed to getting better in athletics and they are a very good academic school.

First, Marist and Monmouth have the best athletic programs in their repective conferences for years. Iona is not close to either.

Marist has finished 1st or 2nd in the MAAC's Commissioner's Cup for 10 of the 11 years in the conference (it finished 3rd just once).

They've won the last 4 in a row.
http://goredfoxes.cstv.com/genrel/060308aac.html

I'm sure a Marist fan can post the NCAA tourney apperances for the Red Foxes.
-----
(I hate to do this for a rival NEC school, but ...)
Monmouth has won the NEC Commissioner's Cup for the past 4 years in a row (6th time overall).
http://www.northeastconference.org/news/general/2007/5/29/nec-cup0607rel.asp?path=general

MU in the NCAA tourney:
Baseball - 2007, 1999, 1998
MBasketball - 2006, 2004, 2001, 1996
MSoccer - 2006
WLax - 2007, 2006, 2001

Both of these school could compete in the PL tomorrow. The question you have to ask is "do these schools meet or strive to attain our institutional profile?"

[henfan]

With respect to DFW Hoya's views, my information on Villanova is different, that is, they would certainly consider it, IF we allowed scholarships.

According to Andy Talley, athletic aid isn't the only element that would keep VU from joining the PL. The Wildcats also enjoy competiting in one of the most competitive D-I FB leagues in the country, one whose footprint mirrors VU's recruiting area. (VU obviously sees an advantage to having its FB team covered in the largest metro areas in the Northeast- Boston, NYC and Baltimore/DC.) Again, Talley has suggested that the school would be hard-pressed to sacrifice the rivalries developed with CAA teams over the last 20+ years. While many of the schools in the PL are top-notch, VU's CAA competitors aren't exactly academic slouches. The problem the PL faces in trying to attract VU has less to do with what the PL has to offer and much more to do with what the CAA has to offer.

You also have to measure how a move to the PL would be received by the Wildcat Club, VU's booster group. Without their support, VU would not likely have a FB team. Historically, the Wildcat club has supported a move for VU FB to Big East, so it's unlikely they'd get behind what they'd perceive as a competitive step backwards to the PL.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

First, Marist and Monmouth have the best athletic programs in their respective conferences for years. Iona is not close to either.

Marist has finished 1st or 2nd in the MAAC's Commissioner's Cup for 10 of the 11 years in the conference (it finished 3rd just once).

As most people here know, I've been a fan of Marist making the move to the PL for quite some time. They are a great addition overall and would give instant cred in men's and women's basketball. A Marist/Holy Cross basketball rivalry would be awful interesting, IMO - and add Bucknell and (maybe) a return of Fordham to the PL in all other sports, and that would be one kickass basketball league for men's AND women's basketball.

They would not, on the other hand, improve the profile in football immediately - and they might prove to be a type of Georgetown-like building project in that area. They might not, however.

I don't think Iona is a part of this equation. Their athletic department is simply a mess thanks to the problems with their basketball program. It's actually incredible that they've held together their football team in the face of all the issues. And they're not close to Marist or Monmouth in terms of academics.

This is a good discussion for September 20th: Lehigh's bye week xlolx

[LUHawker]

Here is my dream list. These schools simply make the list based on largely the academic profile as well as the potential to fit athletically. Geography also plays a role. I acknowlede that there may be a whole lot of hoops to jump through to make any of these happen. Indeed some would have to make wholesale changes to the levels at which they compete in some sports. This is more of a list of schools that I would be happy to have join the PL. Just a fantasy really. Incidentally, Georgetown topped this list before they joined so it could happen.

Johns Hopkins
Carnegie Mellon
William & Mary
Villanova
University of Richmond
Boston University (bring back football)
RPI

That's the short list anyway. Just for fun.

I think this is a great short list. From an all-sports member standpoint, I think RPI is the best and most likely addition. It fits the academic profile, student size profile and geography profile. I think Colgate and HC would be very happy to add them, plus Fordham for football; they'd be nice rivalries. While RPI is DIII today, it is building a new football facility and appears committed to boosting its athletics. I don't know much about Union, but given RPI's rivalry with them, UC could be a future addition, as well. Richmond would be a perfect fit, but the hurdles for them to move given the near-mutiny at the suggestion a couple of years ago might be too high. Nova is joining until and unless Talley leaves. I think CMU is a non-starter; they're just not even close athletically. Hopkins is another great fit, but the step up for football looks shaky. Bringing back football at BU seems very remote. My best guess is that Hopkins and RPI could join in all sports, but in football they'd have a longer phase in period.

[aceinthehole]

As most people here know, I've been a fan of Marist making the move to the PL for quite some time. They are a great addition overall and would give instant cred in men's and women's basketball.

They would not, on the other hand, improve the profile in football immediately - and they might prove to be a type of Georgetown-like building project in that area. They might not, however.

I don't think Iona is a part of this equation. Their athletic department is simply a mess thanks to the problems with their basketball program. It's actually incredible that they've held together their football team in the face of all the issues. And they're not close to Marist or Monmouth in terms of academics.


Agree w/ you 100%. Unfortunately, I realistically don't see any other options for FULL membership. Wish lists are fun, but there are no indications that the NCAA is going to make it any easier for a school like RPI or JHU to move up to D-I. And I can't see any school moving down from a higher profile conference, which limits the expansion pool to the regional "low/mid-major" conferences in your footprint: NEC, AE, MAAC, and CAA.

The problems there are clear - the MAAC is almost exclusively Catholic, most have moderate to poor academics, and no one (except Marist and Iona) play football. Fairfield or Loyola are the highest rated in academics, but neither plays football. Marist is really the only choice from this conference.

I've talked about the NEC already. Monmouth is the best option, but has a very moderate academic profile. Two other schools (SHU and Wagner) are longshots, at best. Quinnipiac is a rising school in many ways, but it doesn't play football. The rest of the NEC aren't even on the table for discussion.

The AE is nearly all public - something that doesn't fit well with the PL. Boston University is an ideal target, but is yet another school that dropped football. Hartford is the only other private, but doesn't match BU's academics/profile and it doesn't play football.

I can't see any member of the CAA considering a move to the PL as a full member. Most of the conference is public. Drexel doesn't play football. Northeastern, Hofstra, and maybe W&M are targets, but why would they leave the CAA? They won't.

IMO - the PL may get a better fit if it was looking for FB-only membership. I don't think that is the plan, but in that case you might put Villanova and Richmond ot the list, even though most indications are they don't have any interest in a move from CAA affilliates to PL affiliates.

Its a good discussion, but from a PL perspective there are not a lot of good options.

[carney2]

Don't get your hopes up, Fantasy Leaguers. The pickings are slim.

[ColgateTD]

I think this is a great short list. From an all-sports member standpoint, I think RPI is the best and most likely addition. It fits the academic profile, student size profile and geography profile. I think Colgate and HC would be very happy to add them, plus Fordham for football; they'd be nice rivalries. While RPI is DIII today, it is building a new football facility and appears committed to boosting its athletics. I don't know much about Union, but given RPI's rivalry with them, UC could be a future addition, as well... My best guess is that Hopkins and RPI could join in all sports, but in football they'd have a longer phase in period.

The good thing about a RPI and potential UC tie-in is that they also bring men's ice hockey rivalries into the picture with Colgate and HC, even though it's ECAC and not PL. These are schools that know each other on the ice, in hoops, and potentially on the fb field...xthumbsupx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I think RPI is the best and most likely addition. It fits the academic profile, student size profile and geography profile. I think Colgate and HC would be very happy to add them, plus Fordham for football; they'd be nice rivalries. While RPI is DIII today, it is building a new football facility and appears committed to boosting its athletics.

The problem with RPI is it it is the perfect academic fit while bringing nothing to the table in terms of viewership. What's the chance that ESPN is going to be enthused enough to pick up a Bucknell/RPI basketball game in February?


The problems there are clear - the MAAC is almost exclusively Catholic, most have moderate to poor academics, and no one (except Marist and Iona) play football. Fairfield or Loyola are the highest rated in academics, but neither plays football. Marist is really the only choice from this conference.

Loyola, IMO, is an intriguing X-factor in all of this. Theoretically, they could start up football at their brand-new multi-purpose stadium which supposedly is only intended for lacrosse. They were always the odd man out in the MAAC in so many sports, geographically as well as competitively, and it would allow their fantastic lacrosse program in a truly national conference in that sport: the Patriot League, where they would play Navy on a regular basis.

If they re-start up football (they abandoned it, I think, in the 1940s), that puts the Patriot League with a nice regional partner for Georgetown. And that would make Georgetown a great member in all sports (except basketball, where they'd end up with the Villanova, Providence, and the other big-time basketball schools in a basketball-only conference when the Big East splits up in 2010).

Fairfield is another school I've kept my eye on. However, they dropped football nine years ago and haven't really shown any inkling that they want to start it up again.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

If i were to consider teams i'd take a look at Rhode Island, Stony Brook, Duquesne, William & Mary, VMI, and Northeastern. Each school has their own +'s and -'s.
URI- Good academic profile, major state university, struggling program, ties to Fordham and Holy Cross; -'s be somewhat of an outcast
Stony Brook- Improved facilities, central location, -'s lower academic profile, not sure of program's ultimate direction
Duquesne- Good academics, great location, not a "big" university, solid program, ties to Fordham; -'s facilities
William & Mary- Great school, football tradition, ties to the original PL: -'s already competitive in perhaps the best league, location to some PL schools
VMI- good profile, good support and facilities, ties to PL schools; -'s location, struggling program, VMI's direction
Northeastern- Good school, great location, ties to Holy Cross, could perhaps use a fresh start; -'s already in great conference

[carney2]

Day dreams and day dreamers aside, we seem to be looking at Marist, Monmouth, Loyola and Fairfield, two of which do not presently have football programs. Our cup truly runneth over.

[Redwyn]

I'm not sure Stony Brook belongs here. The profile of a good PL school is one with a sterling academic reputation bolstered by intimate campus. Stony Brook has an incredible academic reputation, but is anything but intimate. To compound the issue, Stony Brook will be full scholarship football program within the next two years, a process it cannot reverse, nor would there be any on-campus will to do so.

It looks like the only FCS conference with a shot at Stony Brook is the Colonial (Hofstra in division would be very nice), but, for now, Stony Brook is locked by contract with the Big South for a good deal of time.

RPI and Hopkins will never field football programs. The fan base isn't there (both would fight with better entrenched athletic reputations in Albany and Maryland), and the student athletic backing in football isn't there either. Carney2 seems right on mark with Marist and Monmouth being prime candidates, perhaps Marist more than Monmouth. Marist is a small school with a very strong athletic tradition (especially in rowing and basketball).

Why did BU shut down football? Were they out done by other Boston area schools?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Day dreams and day dreamers aside, we seem to be looking at Marist, Monmouth, Loyola and Fairfield, two of which do not presently have football programs. Our cup truly runneth over.


You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to carney2 again.

Come on. Am I the only one who give rep points to Carney? xrulesx

[Lehigh74]

Here is my dream list. These schools simply make the list based on largely the academic profile as well as the potential to fit athletically. Geography also plays a role. I acknowlede that there may be a whole lot of hoops to jump through to make any of these happen. Indeed some would have to make wholesale changes to the levels at which they compete in some sports. This is more of a list of schools that I would be happy to have join the PL. Just a fantasy really. Incidentally, Georgetown topped this list before they joined so it could happen.

Johns Hopkins
Carnegie Mellon
William & Mary
Villanova
University of Richmond
Boston University (bring back football)
RPI

That's the short list anyway. Just for fun.

I propose to add to your "wish" list, NYU and Tufts. They are presently in Division III, but good matches geographically and academically.

[aceinthehole]

Day dreams and day dreamers aside, we seem to be looking at Marist, Monmouth, Loyola and Fairfield, two of which do not presently have football programs. Our cup truly runneth over.

Yep, you're right.

I HATE to use the USNWR rankings for anything, but just for some general and rough perspective, here's some of the Tier 1 schools in the Master's University-North category:

1. Villanova - Ain't leaving the BE, and FB-only is doubtful.
2. Loyola (MD) - MAAC school with great Lax, but no football.
4. Fairfield - Same story as Loyola.
9. Rochester Institute of Technology - D-III with no plans to reclassify.
13. Marist - Prime target!
13. Quinnipiac - Has ice hockey, but no football.
16. Bryant - Opportunity not taken by the PL.
23. Wagner - Offers NYC, but is the complete profile strong enough?
26. Mt. St. Mary's - Another NEC school, but no football.
30. Iona - Questionable administration, no football.
33. Sacred Heart - Improving, but a long, long shot.
40. Towson - Former PL affiliate.
46. Monmouth - Much further down than I expected.

As for the National Liberal Arts rankings from which the core of the PL reside, the following are the only D-I schools in the region (listed by rank):

Richmond
Furman
Wofford
VMI
Birmingham-Southern
Presbyterian
Siena

Only Siena (without football) is in the current footprint. Who from this list is a realistic candidate? Anyone? Not really.

[Franks Tanks]

If i were to consider teams i'd take a look at Rhode Island, Stony Brook, Duquesne, William & Mary, VMI, and Northeastern. Each school has their own +'s and -'s.
URI- Good academic profile, major state university, struggling program, ties to Fordham and Holy Cross; -'s be somewhat of an outcast
Stony Brook- Improved facilities, central location, -'s lower academic profile, not sure of program's ultimate direction
Duquesne- Good academics, great location, not a "big" university, solid program, ties to Fordham; -'s facilities
William & Mary- Great school, football tradition, ties to the original PL: -'s already competitive in perhaps the best league, location to some PL schools
VMI- good profile, good support and facilities, ties to PL schools; -'s location, struggling program, VMI's direction
Northeastern- Good school, great location, ties to Holy Cross, could perhaps use a fresh start; -'s already in great conference

I dont think large state univesities like Stony Brook or RI would be a good fit no matter how good or bad the academics may be. They would just be too different from the other PL schools.

[DFW HOYA]

Why did BU shut down football?

Because of one man who spent nearly a quarter century to deep-six the Terriers, who famously boasted that since great universities like the Sorbonne didn't have football, and neither should his. "Football is simply not a program that captures the interest of students," he said. "We have more students and members of the faculty attending lectures by Elie Weisel than attend a football game."

BU averaged 5,634 in 1995. I sincerely doubt any lecture attracted that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Silber

[ngineer]

Day dreams and day dreamers aside, we seem to be looking at Marist, Monmouth, Loyola and Fairfield, two of which do not presently have football programs. Our cup truly runneth over.

I agree. If "time is of the essence" then the most logical move would be Marist or Iona. Too much time needed for other scenarios to occur to intice Villanova or Richmond.

[bison137]

When it comes to academics, Marist is heads and shoulders ahead of Duquesne, which is ahead of Monmouth. Only Marist comes remotely close to the PL's academics, and it would need to improve to move up to the level that American now occupies. If it were a football-only move born out of desperation, I might be able to live with the latter two but it would be like bringing back Towson in terms of the fit. I'd much prefer one of the other alternatives however, including Marist for all sports.


Some stats for these three schools (w/ Bucknell's in parentheses):

Middle SAT: Marist 1155, Duquesne 1115, Monmouth 1065 (1320)
Pct of students in top 25% of HS class: Marist 75%, Duq 56%, Monm 39% (93%)
Acceptance Rate: Marist 42%, Duq 74%, Monm 58% (29.8%)
Graduation Rate: Marist 77%, Duq 72%, Monm 57% (89%)
Alumni Giving Rate: Marist 21%, Duq 15%, Monm 8% (37%)

[Seawolf97]

I think the leadership of PL has step out of the trees so to speak and look at the forest. The PL is surrounded by teams either at full scholarship level or on the march toward the magic number of 63. I honestly cannot see any of them dropping back to jump into the PL especially Villanova and Richmond who are in the hunt for a national title. I would like to see a full scholarship PL in football someday if for no other reason it would raise Northeastern FCS football another notch. So good luck in your qwest.

[LUHawker]

I agree. If "time is of the essence" then the most logical move would be Marist or Iona. Too much time needed for other scenarios to occur to intice Villanova or Richmond.

I disagree that time is of the essence for expansion. I believe that time is of the essence for scholarships, but not expansion. Institute scholarships and I think a shift in the landscape happens and schools, which, heretofore, would not or have not considered the PL may change their tune, particularly if scholarships bring about improved results in FCS.

[DFW HOYA]

If they re-start up football (they abandoned it, I think, in the 1940s), that puts the Patriot League with a nice regional partner for Georgetown. And that would make Georgetown a great member in all sports (except basketball, where they'd end up with the Villanova, Providence, and the other big-time basketball schools in a basketball-only conference when the Big East splits up in 2010).

Georgetown (and Villanova) are not seeking a home in the PL for its sports and both are not likely to seek a basketball-only arrangement either. But that's not the issue here.

We've argued around the periphery of ths issue, but it boils down to a question that perhaps LFN's interview can help illuminate: what exactly does the PL want to be?

Maybe it's a regional association of small liberal arts schools with modest aspirations like RPI and Hopkins. If so, changes in the current membership are inevitable.

Maybe it's a basketball conference with football as a "nice to have" and little more. If so, basketball is going to need a lot more money, perhaps at the expense of competing at the national level of I-AA football, and to appeal to schools which reflect this priority.

Maybe it's a football conference that is something more than a traveling party for an Ivy League which has somewhat withdrawn from the national stage. If so, PL football is going to have a visible commitment to scholarship support to make its case, chart its own course, and attract schools which also reflect this level of priority.

So what exactly does the PL want to be? I don't know the answer, but it's a question a lot of us are asking.

[ngineer]

I disagree that time is of the essence for expansion. I believe that time is of the essence for scholarships, but not expansion. Institute scholarships and I think a shift in the landscape happens and schools, which, heretofore, would not or have not considered the PL may change their tune, particularly if scholarships bring about improved results in FCS.

Scholarships aren't going to be coming in the near future. If there is going to be a need get another team because of scheduling difficulties because of doing away with the bye weeks, then there is little to choose from. The 'quick' addition would be either Marist or Iona...maybe VMI.

[aceinthehole]

Scholarships aren't going to be coming in the near future. If there is going to be a need get another team because of scheduling difficulties because of doing away with the bye weeks, then there is little to choose from. The 'quick' addition would be either Marist or Iona...maybe VMI.

Iona?? Again, are you serious?

The football program is on life support. The basketball program has been in turmoil since they fired the coach. The academics are questionable, the administration is suspect, and their budget is tiny ($350k for football). What would make you even throw them on the table?

The PL had the chance to grab Bryant, a successful D-II program making the move to D-I. They expand into a new market (RI) and offer much better academics than Iona. It seems the PL decided to pass on that option.

Hell, Wagner has won a D-III national championship in football, and has recent NCAA and NIT appearances in men's hoops. A gorgeous campus and an all around better profile than Iona.

Even if the PL is desperate, you don't consider Iona.

[ngineer]

Iona?? Again, are you serious?

The football program is on life support. The basketball program has been in turmoil since they fired the coach. The academics are questionable, the administration is suspect, and their budget is tiny ($350k for football). What would make you even throw them on the table?

The PL had the chance to grab Bryant, a successful D-II program making the move to D-I. They expand into a new market (RI) and offer much better academics than Iona. It seems the PL decided to pass on that option.

Hell, Wagner has won a D-III national championship in football, and has recent NCAA and NIT appearances in men's hoops. A gorgeous campus and an all around better profile than Iona.

Even if the PL is desperate, you don't consider Iona.

Well I will defer to your more knowledgeable position; however, it was my perception that Iona is looking for a home, and of course, such a move would necessitate a commitment by them to put enough dollars into the program to be competitive. Basketball has always been their callling card, and I think a number of PL schools play them in b-ball.
I would agree that Wagner would be another viable option if they are in a positition to make the move..I assumed they were remaining D-III.

[Seahawks Fan]

I would agree that Wagner would be another viable option if they are in a positition to make the move..I assumed they were remaining D-III.


You are confused. Wagner is FCS Northeast Conference. We were 7-4 last year and looking to improve on that this year.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Scholarships aren't going to be coming in the near future. If there is going to be a need get another team because of scheduling difficulties because of doing away with the bye weeks, then there is little to choose from. The 'quick' addition would be either Marist or Iona...maybe VMI.


I disagree that time is of the essence for expansion. I believe that time is of the essence for scholarships, but not expansion. Institute scholarships and I think a shift in the landscape happens and schools, which, heretofore, would not or have not considered the PL may change their tune, particularly if scholarships bring about improved results in FCS.

With only five core members that play football, I think expansion should be a priority, and it seems like other folks (in the league) think that expansion is going up the list of importance by 2010 with the challenges of having an odd number of teams and 5 OOC dates to fill.

Expansion will be difficult without scholarships in football - if football is a priority. If you take football out of the equation, all of a sudden there are a lot more options: St. Bonaventure, LaSalle, Fordham, Loyola, Manhattan... ALL of whom would help basketball. Imagine for a second a Patriot League with Manhattan and Fordham in it for all sports... talk about a rivalry... and then imagine St. Bonnie, LaSalle or Fairfield in that mix. That would be the foundation for a smaller A-10, with a great budding rivalry in the NYC area and interesting rivaries with Holy Cross, Bucknell, the Lehigh Valley...

How that affects football, if anything that resembles this comes to pass? Unclear. Fordham wants football scholarships, but as an associate member their vote doesn't mean as much as the core members. All these basketball schools haven't had football for a long time (except LaSalle), and it's questionable if any of them have the money or desire to pick it up.

Ironically, this shows how hard it is to expand with a strange financial aid setup. With basketball scholarships, the Patriot League can pursue a LaSalle, St. Bonaventure or Loyola without being dismissed out of hand. The same thing would probably happen with football scholarships if the league tried.

I think some form of scholarships are inevitable for football. Without them, there are really no options that don't involve de-commissioning scholarships or breaking up a conference in line for an autobid (any Big South, CAA affiliate or NEC target).

Any new non-scholarship member would need a long ramp-up period to be competitive (a transitioning D-III would need at least 4 years, and a non-scholarship team like Marist or Iona would also need lots of time).

I also think that the leadership realizes that the two issues are linked. Whether the presidents know this and/or are comfortable with this are a different matter.

[Ken_Z]

one more time:

several schools and the league have publically identified expansion as a key priority.

if PL were to remain non-scholly and Marist was going to be invited, it would have already happened. rule that outcome out.

the options are:
- non-scholly with current D1 schools, but imperfect PL profile (Marist should be at the top of this list, so rule this option one out by the transitive property of PL presidential expansion [acceptance/rejection])
- non-scholly with D3 upgrades, but a good PL profile (RPI is the only one that both fits the league profile and might have interest)
- adopt scholarships and attempt to attract from the Richmond. W&M, 'nova pool of candidates

review of merit aid financing policies is underway at the schools.

likelihood of outcomes:
- 1/3 RPI scenario
- 2/3 scholarship scenario with the unanswerable question, who joins?

unaanswerable, but i shall restate my old prediction (fully ready to be ridiculed by grumpy old men like carney) is Richmond joining initially for football only (they later join for all sports when the Abomination10 League starts to crumble). PL expansion results will ultimately be even better than that scenario.

one interesting new twist (at least new to me) is that the ideal league now needs to have an even number of teams. i used to believe in the 9 team football league: 4 home and 4 away games. now the schedule compression shifts the preference to an even number of teams so you don't have to fill open dates during conference season.

[dgreco]

When it comes to academics, Marist is heads and shoulders ahead of Duquesne, which is ahead of Monmouth. Only Marist comes remotely close to the PL's academics, and it would need to improve to move up to the level that American now occupies. If it were a football-only move born out of desperation, I might be able to live with the latter two but it would be like bringing back Towson in terms of the fit. I'd much prefer one of the other alternatives however, including Marist for all sports.


Some stats for these three schools (w/ Bucknell's in parentheses):

Middle SAT: Marist 1155, Duquesne 1115, Monmouth 1065 (1320)
Pct of students in top 25% of HS class: Marist 75%, Duq 56%, Monm 39% (93%)
Acceptance Rate: Marist 42%, Duq 74%, Monm 58% (29.8%)
Graduation Rate: Marist 77%, Duq 72%, Monm 57% (89%)
Alumni Giving Rate: Marist 21%, Duq 15%, Monm 8% (37%)

Add the Bryant numbers:

Middle SAT: 1,200
Students top 25%: 64%
Acceptance Rate: 34%
Graduation Rate: 72%
Alumni Giving: no idea where to find.


I am surprised more hasn't been said about Bryant. I still think Bryant would want/wants to be in the PL. the PL said wait 4 years and I think Bryant was too nervous for a situation like that

[Franks Tanks]

Add the Bryant numbers:

Middle SAT: 1,200
Students top 25%: 64%
Acceptance Rate: 34%
Graduation Rate: 72%
Alumni Giving: no idea where to find.


I am surprised more hasn't been said about Bryant. I still think Bryant would want/wants to be in the PL. the PL said wait 4 years and I think Bryant was too nervous for a situation like that

I've said before that I would prefer Bryant over Marist and especially Iona. Bryant is a good school that really seems to be aspiring for more both academically and athletically. Football wise I think its a no brainer and they will be a very solid team in 2-3 years I believe.

[dgreco]

I've said before that I would prefer Bryant over Marist and especially Iona. Bryant is a good school that really seems to be aspiring for more both academically and athletically. Football wise I think its a no brainer and they will be a very solid team in 2-3 years I believe.

I just wonder if a Bryant would buy out of its contract with the NEC. It has made an effort to schedule Ivy/PL schools in all sports and I think it would have a good home in sports like lax, basketball, football etc. Bryant has also said at the NEC media day, they have a good system, and the program isn't about scholarships (its about graduating kids) and in 12 years if they have 12 scholarships it will be a lot. Do I think they were being somewhat facetious and using hyperbole sure, but I think if the PL came knocking, they would be ready to go.

[letsgopards04]

I think this is a great short list. From an all-sports member standpoint, I think RPI is the best and most likely addition. It fits the academic profile, student size profile and geography profile. I think Colgate and HC would be very happy to add them, plus Fordham for football; they'd be nice rivalries. While RPI is DIII today, it is building a new football facility and appears committed to boosting its athletics. I don't know much about Union, but given RPI's rivalry with them, UC could be a future addition, as well. Richmond would be a perfect fit, but the hurdles for them to move given the near-mutiny at the suggestion a couple of years ago might be too high. Nova is joining until and unless Talley leaves. I think CMU is a non-starter; they're just not even close athletically. Hopkins is another great fit, but the step up for football looks shaky. Bringing back football at BU seems very remote. My best guess is that Hopkins and RPI could join in all sports, but in football they'd have a longer phase in period.

Adding RPI would also create an instant rivalry with cross-Hudson schools UAlbany in football and Siena in basketball.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I'm extremely baffled as to why signing up RPI lights up the Patriot League electorate. Unless you are enthused about the mingling of faculty members or the Patriot League forming league sponsorship in ice hockey, I fail to see what they bring in other areas. They bring little to competitive athletics IMO, and they won't simply be a project in football, they'll be a project across the board in a multitude of sports. And as I said before, a Colgate/RPI matchup in anything but hockey will fail to enthuse Patriot League enthusiasm.

Including Marist has its pluses and minuses, but in all sports they'd be a much stronger choice right away. Yes, they would have to build a scholarship football program, and their TV area isn't great either. But they at least have a somewhat national reputation in sports and would actually make the Patriot League much stronger in basketball.

If you absolutely have to have a D-III, Johns Hopkins would be a much, much better choice. They already have a D-I sport that the PL already sponsors: lacrosse. Plus they're in a sports-mad Baltimore/DC market. However, this wouldn't be a football decision - they would need time to transition and all that, too.

A D-III moving up, IMO, is not an ideal choice at all, mostly since folks are saying "time is of the essence".

[aceinthehole]

Talks of RPI or JHU are more daydreaming than getting Delaware in the PL. Talk about a 10+ year plan! The NCAA has a moritorium on reclassifing to D-I, noit to mention there is zero indications from the those D-III schools that they want to invest in D-I athletics. As long as they can play their one sport at the D-I level, they are happy. They compete with the PL in academic rankings and don't need D-I athletics to improve their national profile or student recruitment.

----

Ken - I think we know Bryant approached the PL when moving up to D-I and it appears that the PL decided to pass on Bryant, but do we really know how much they were considered? How do we know the PL has passed on Marist already? Maybe Marist has not have come forward with official interest yet. I just don't know.

While Richmond would be ideal, are you comfortable with 2 huge variables in that scenario? 1) the PL must adopt FB schollys, and 2) the A-10 must crumble. Not to mention, if the CAA doesn't kick UR out, what incentive do they have to leave for the PL as an affiliate?

The PL can control #1, but like the Big East split I don't think the destruction of the A-10 is a sure thing.

[Go...gate]

Just ran across this; as ever, an informative thread.

IMO, Iona does not fit the PL profile and is barely committed to its FB program.

URI intresting but do they really want to leave the CAA?

The ship sailed on Richmond a couple of years ago.

BU is the right idea but regrettably 15 years too late to save their program, which deserved better.

Until Andy Talley leaves (at the earliest), Villanova is not a possibility.

W&M walked away from us in 1984 and, based, upon some of the points of view of some of their posters here, have no interest in the PL yesterday, today or tomorrow.

VMI, IMO, is a logical fit based on their size and institutional profile, but perhaps not location.

Johns Hopkins would be great, but does anyone know if they have ever shown any interest in moving all sports to Division I?

RPI also great, but have we sounded them out at all?

Monmouth intriguing - IMO, kind of the Sarah Palin here - but they need to continue the upgrade in their academic profile.

Marist also of interest because of overall profile and location, with an stated institutional commitment (like American) to continue raising its academic profile.

I agree with Lehigh74 that NYU would be a wonderful fit for the PL but no football unless they want to re-start.

I also agree with Lehigh74 as to Tufts, but I understand they are very much commited to the NESCAC.

Duquesne seems to be happy in the NEC and they have committed to that conference's scholarship profile.

I always argue Gettysburg's case, but realistically it is not likely.

Botom line is that it is a mixed bag.

[Franks Tanks]

Just ran across this; as ever, an informative thread.

IMO, Iona does not fit the PL profile and is barely committed to its FB program.

URI intresting but do they really want to leave the CAA?

The ship sailed on Richmond a couple of years ago.

BU is the right idea but regrettably 15 years too late to save their program, which deserved better.

Until Andy Talley leaves (at the earliest), Villanova is not a possibility.

W&M walked away from us in 1984 and, based, upon some of the points of view of some of their posters here, have no interest in the PL yesterday, today or tomorrow.

VMI, IMO, is a logical fit based on their size and institutional profile, but perhaps not location.

Johns Hopkins would be great, but does anyone know if they have ever shown any interest in moving all sports to Division I?

RPI also great, but have we sounded them out at all?

Monmouth intriguing - IMO, kind of the Sarah Palin here - but they need to continue the upgrade in their academic profile.

Marist also of interest because of overall profile and location, with an stated institutional commitment (like American) to continue raising its academic profile.

I agree with Lehigh74 that NYU would be a wonderful fit for the PL but no football unless they want to re-start.

I also agree with Lehigh74 as to Tufts, but I understand they are very much commited to the NESCAC.

Duquesne seems to be happy in the NEC and they have committed to that conference's scholarship profile.

I always argue Gettysburg's case, but realistically it is not likely.

Botom line is that it is a mixed bag.


Gettysburg is also a fine school. Dickinson and Gettysburg are the only PA D-III liberal arts schools (and there are many) with the academic profile and money to even consider. But yes quite a pipe dream.

[Bull Fan]

Including Marist has its pluses and minuses, but in all sports they'd be a much stronger choice right away. Yes, they would have to build a scholarship football program, and their TV area isn't great either. But they at least have a somewhat national reputation in sports and would actually make the Patriot League much stronger in basketball.


What national reputation? At one point or another, the sheen of Rik Smits must wear off... They're not really even considered a decent basketball school within the NY metro area, not these days.

Sadly, there apparently seems to be no slam-dunk school from this discussion. From the outside looking in, Monmouth, Marist and Iona don't add to your image.

Hofstra, about 16 years ago (give or take), was considered or considering a Patriot League invite. I can't recall who wanted who - or who didn't want who. xconfusedx

[DFW HOYA]

Gettysburg? RPI? No offense, but this sounds like a mid-atlantic version of the NESCAC and certain to send legitimate expansion targets running, if they aren't already.

If the PL leadership really wants to go to small schools with marginal Division I aspirations, there will not be enough core schools left to remain as a viable I-AA conference...as was the case with the MAAC.

[aceinthehole]

Add the Bryant numbers:

Middle SAT: 1,200
Students top 25%: 64%
Acceptance Rate: 34%
Graduation Rate: 72%
Alumni Giving: no idea where to find.


I am surprised more hasn't been said about Bryant. I still think Bryant would want/wants to be in the PL. the PL said wait 4 years and I think Bryant was too nervous for a situation like that

I agree. Bryant makes a decent case for the PL, but its tough for established conference to take on a newcomer, especially with only a "moderate" academic profile compared to the establishment.

I'm not sure what was said between the PL and Bryant, but I agree the PL probably said they wanted to take a wait and see approach.

Bryant fits well into the NEC with schools like Monmouth, Wagner, QU, Scared Heart, and even Mt. St. Marys. Bobby Mo has some work to do but is also a growing and improving school and FDU is an underachiever with potential.

However, I suspect Bryant is in the NEC for a while, considering they don't begin membership until 2012.

[carney2]

I prefer Harvard, Yale, Dartmouth, Williams and Amherst, but it ain't gonna happen. What are you people smoking?

[aceinthehole]

What national reputation? At one point or another, the sheen of Rik Smits must wear off... They're not really even considered a decent basketball school within the NY metro area, not these days.

Sadly, there apparently seems to be no slam-dunk school from this discussion. From the outside looking in, Monmouth, Marist and Iona don't add to your image.

Hofstra, about 16 years ago (give or take), was considered or considering a Patriot League invite. I can't recall who wanted who - or who didn't want who. xconfusedx

I agree with you, "national reputation" is a strong statement, but Marist certainly has a solid regional reputation. BTW - Smits was back in their NEC days :)

They are the best all-around athletic program in the MAAC, and probably fall behind Loyola and Fairfield in academics. Didn't they recently win a NIT game or two in mens' or women's hoops? They aren't slouches.

Again, they aren't a very hot or well known D-I commodity, but frankly its the probably the best school the PL is going to get in the near future as a full member.

[Bull Fan]

Again, they aren't a very hot or well known D-I commodity, but frankly its the probably the best school the PL is going to get in the near future as a full member.

Hold out then. A lackluster Marist would be settling for the sake of expansion.

[JoltinJoe]

Keith Groller, who handles the Lehigh beat for the Allentown (PA) Morning Call, does a Patriot League roundup every week. This week's article, under the headline, "PL looking to add schools" included the following from Lehigh head coach, Andy Coen:

"In 2010, the schedules will be re-aligned [condensed to an 11-week period that will eliminate bye weeks and flexibility] and the FCS playoffs will be expanded. Scheduling is already a challenge and will become more difficult when that happens."

''The best way to make things easier is to get more league games so you have more dates locked in. I don't know of any program in our league that isn't in favor of us expanding.''

The brief article ends with the following from Groller:

"Carolyn Schlie Femovich, the league's executive director, has talked about expansion for years, but now time may really be of the essence."

There seems to be agreement that not much worthwhile will happen without football scholarships. Since there is no known movement on that front, and since no one is naming names for expansion candidates, I am assuming same old, same old, business as usual in this sit on your butts, do nothing League.

If the issue is scheduling, a potential solution other than expansion, is to re-enter a formalized scheduling agreement with the Ivy League. Maybe give it to them this way: we're facing scheduling issues in the future, and we need either (i) to expand, and this means offer scholarships in order to entice the schools we want; or (ii) to find a scheduling partner conference.

I know the original deal lapsed because the Ivy League fans complained they needed some variety; however, it seems probable that it will also have some scheduling issues presented by the loss of the bye week.

[DetroitFlyer]

If the issue is scheduling, a potential solution other than expansion, is to re-enter a formalized scheduling agreement with the Ivy League. Maybe give it to them this way: we're facing scheduling issues in the future, and we need either (i) to expand, and this means offer scholarships in order to entice the schools we want; or (ii) to find a scheduling partner conference.

I know the original deal lapsed because the Ivy League fans complained they needed some variety; however, it seems probable that it will also have some scheduling issues presented by the loss of the bye week.


Both the Ivy League and the Patriot League should schedule more PFL teams.

[Ken_Z]

If the issue is scheduling, a potential solution other than expansion, is to re-enter a formalized scheduling agreement with the Ivy League.

problem with this solution is that we have seven teams, they have eight. PL has a team without a league game every week that needs an ooc game. the Ivy can't fill that game without putting another one of their teams into the position of having to find an ooc opponent (not PL).

[Franks Tanks]

Both the Ivy League and the Patriot League should schedule more PFL teams.

Why? Nobody gets excited about that except you. A few of the PFL teams are competitive but our fans and players dont get excited about it. We need to schedule more CAA teams.

[Go...gate]

I prefer Harvard, Yale, Dartmouth, Williams and Amherst, but it ain't gonna happen. What are you people smoking?

Listen, if we're going to add Ivy Schools, you'd better pick somebody Lafayette can beat once in a while! j/k xsmiley_wix

[colorless raider]

The core group of schools are strong enough the couldy force their hand. Either push through scholarships or consider another option. Lehigh, Lafayette, Colgate, and Bucknell i believe have enough push if they want something to happen they can do it. There is viable options under the current rules but the candidate pool greatly expands with schollies.

I with you, let's get tough and force their hand. We must act fast!xnonox c

[LUHawker]

Gettysburg? RPI? No offense, but this sounds like a mid-atlantic version of the NESCAC and certain to send legitimate expansion targets running, if they aren't already.

If the PL leadership really wants to go to small schools with marginal Division I aspirations, there will not be enough core schools left to remain as a viable I-AA conference...as was the case with the MAAC.

RPI isn't that small. With 5100 undergrads and total enrollment of 7300 this makes RPI bigger than any of the all-sports members. Lehigh is currently the biggest at 4500 undergrads.

[turbodean]

Army and/or Navy

...they won't , but maybe they should.

[Seawolf97]

Not to throw anything in the game but if you were looking for good D3 schools that play football-what about the Coast Guard Academy or the Merchant Marine Academy here on Long Island? Not sure what the Federal
Govt would say but Im sure their academics are pretty strong and they are small in student body.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

RPI isn't that small. With 5100 undergrads and total enrollment of 7300 this makes RPI bigger than any of the all-sports members. Lehigh is currently the biggest at 4500 undergrads.

I think you need to throw out the academics to all some extent. Every school mentioned produces quality student-athletes even though they don't fit the same "profile" as the traditional PL schools. Northwestern doesn't have a problem being associated with Michigan State so i don't see why Lehigh or Bucknell would care about playing football against URI or Monmouth.

[ngineer]

Not to throw anything in the game but if you were looking for good D3 schools that play football-what about the Coast Guard Academy or the Merchant Marine Academy here on Long Island? Not sure what the Federal
Govt would say but Im sure their academics are pretty strong and they are small in student body.

The Coast Guard Academy is a great school. However it is very small. I think the enrollment is less than 2000. I was recruited there when Otto Graham was the HC...but flunked the physical---unbelieveable. I played four sports in high school (football, wrestling, track, and baseball in the summer) and flunk the physical..(eyes too bad, prior history of back injury, and severely bow-legged)xeekx

As with some of the other schools mentioned: RPI, JHU, Gettysburg, etc. I see difficulties in the D-III's moving up. And while people are mentioning RPI, why not University of Rochester? Excellent academics, nice little stadium.

[ngineer]

RPI isn't that small. With 5100 undergrads and total enrollment of 7300 this makes RPI bigger than any of the all-sports members. Lehigh is currently the biggest at 4500 undergrads.

Yes, but Fordham is 7400 and Georgetown 13,164, so from a football perspective, no real problem.

[Seahawks Fan]

Army and/or Navy

...they won't , but maybe they should.

They should. Too much tradition, but the switch to FCS makes sense.

[DFW HOYA]

Yes, but Fordham is 7400 and Georgetown 13,164, so from a football perspective, no real problem.

The 13,164 number is misleading. That includes graduate students, the medical school, the downtown law campus, and continuing education. The campus (undergraduate) population is approx. 6,200.

Can we get away from the D-III candidates? It makes the league look awfully weak.

[Fordham]

It makes the league look awfully weak.
I'm starting to believe there's a reason for that. :(

[IndianaAppMan]

I think you need to throw out the academics to all some extent. Every school mentioned produces quality student-athletes even though they don't fit the same "profile" as the traditional PL schools. Northwestern doesn't have a problem being associated with Michigan State so i don't see why Lehigh or Bucknell would care about playing football against URI or Monmouth.

Of course Northwestern doesn't have a problem being associated with Michigan State. MSU, just like the rest of the Big Ten, is a member of the Association of American Universities, the most exclusive association of research universities in the US, including the Ivy League. It has only 62 members. The Big Ten is the only athletic conference in the whole country with all members in the AAU.

[65 Pard]

As long as we are going to dream, let's dream big.......reprising a post I made last year:

The NEW Ivy League

Ivy Conference (North)

Dartmouth
Colgate
Yale
Cornell
Harvard
Brown
Holy Cross

Patriot Conference (South)

Penn
Princeton
Lafayette
Lehigh
Bucknell
Columbia
Fordham
Georgetown

Great inter conference rivalries......schedule games with other conference on rotating basis....Ivies eligible for playoffs (they do it in other sports!).......

[colorless raider]

As long as we are going to dream, let's dream big.......reprising a post I made last year:

The NEW Ivy League

Ivy Conference (North)

Dartmouth
Colgate
Yale
Cornell
Harvard
Brown
Holy Cross

Patriot Conference (South)

Penn
Princeton
Lafayette
Lehigh
Bucknell
Columbia
Fordham
Georgetown

Great inter conference rivalries......schedule games with other conference on rotating basis....Ivies eligible for playoffs (they do it in other sports!).......

BRILLENT !!:D

[Seawolf97]

Looks like problem solved:)

[carney2]

I'm beating KenZ to the punch by kicking myself for starting this thread.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Of course Northwestern doesn't have a problem being associated with Michigan State. MSU, just like the rest of the Big Ten, is a member of the Association of American Universities, the most exclusive association of research universities in the US, including the Ivy League. It has only 62 members. The Big Ten is the only athletic conference in the whole country with all members in the AAU.

Still i didn't know that and i consider myself pretty informed when it comes college athletics. Perspective students of Northwestern might know that but i would bet the majority do not. In reality the Big Ten, Ivy League etc is only a sports conference and nothing more. IMO it has very little bearing on acedemics. The ACC has a wide range of schools and i don't see it hurting Duke's profile, same with the PAC 10. The PL should not be so prejudice when/if they decide to add another member. As an alum of a large state university the elitist attitude it irks me a little bit but i do understand to some extent.

[carney2]

Still i didn't know that and i consider myself pretty informed when it comes college athletics. Perspective students of Northwestern might know that but i would bet the majority do not. In reality the Big Ten, Ivy League etc is only a sports conference and nothing more. IMO it has very little bearing on acedemics. The ACC has a wide range of schools and i don't see it hurting Duke's profile, same with the PAC 10. The PL should not be so prejudice when/if they decide to add another member. As an alum of a large state university the elitist attitude it irks me a little bit but i do understand to some extent.

Don't know the details and certainly don't know about other conferences, but the Big Ten takes some pride in its "research sharing" on the academic side. It was one of the big knocks against Notre Dame (no significant grad level research) a few years ago when both sides took a look at Big Ten membership for the Irish.

[DFW HOYA]

Still i didn't know that and i consider myself pretty informed when it comes college athletics. Perspective students of Northwestern might know that but i would bet the majority do not. In reality the Big Ten, Ivy League etc is only a sports conference and nothing more. IMO it has very little bearing on acedemics.

The Big Ten (through the CIC) is an academic consortium, as is the Council of Ivy Group Presidents.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committee_on_Institutional_Cooperation

[Go...gate]

I'm beating KenZ to the punch by kicking myself for starting this thread.

No, the truth is that you are right on target as to a very troubling issue which the league must confront. I'm glad it is getting raised repeatedly!

[Tim James]

Please add Army. Now that Paul Johnson has left Navy I expect them to return to mediocrity.

[Bogus Megapardus]

BRILLENT !!:D

In a word, why such a thing will never occur.

[Go...gate]

OK, Lafayette posters, since Marist seems to be on the list for possible expansion again, what were your impressions of their FB program and facilities last Saturday evening (if you braved the elements or watched it on LSN). They definitely have a picturesque campus, and it looks like they have a nice ballpark, but what about the talent level? Does it look like they are truly committed to their FB program? All-sports is another story for another season.

[carney2]

OK, Lafayette posters, since Marist seems to be on the list for possible expansion again, what were your impressions of their FB program and facilities last Saturday evening (if you braved the elements or watched it on LSN). They definitely have a picturesque campus, and it looks like they have a nice ballpark, but what about the talent level? Does it look like they are truly committed to their FB program? All-sports is another story for another season.

I'm not the guy to ask, but I'm never short on opinions, so here goes:

The new football facility seats 5,000 which would make it the second smallest in the League. With Georgetown's All-Purpose thing-a-ma-jig at around 2,000 and Fordham's one-sided Jack Coffey in the 7,000 range, it's not out of the question. You are apparently correct in your use of the word "picturesque." The Hudson River can be seen from the home stands.

The new facility has a FieldTurf surface which held up perfectly in last Saturday's monsoon. The rain and wind pretty well shut down the passing games and made the ball seem like a greased pig, but the surface itself was not a factor in the final outcome.

The Lafayette announcers and Frank Tavani stated that this is the best Marist team they have seen in the years that we've been playing them. They are far too small however to be effective in the lard butt Patriot League. It was obvious from the get-go that the conditions would ultimately force Lafayette to resort to a straight ahead ground game. Once it began it was merely bulldozer left followed by bulldozer right. Marist had no answers.

It appeared on my TV screen however, that they have some decent speed. On defense, they seemed better able to cope with Lafayette when the Pards moved east and west, rather than north and south. The skill position people are not up to the standards that we see week to week in the Patriot League.

As I'm sure you are aware, the Red Foxes will be joining that geographical nightmare Pioneer Football League (PFL) next year. They will be forced to upgrade their play from what they had in their now defunct Metro Atlantic Athletic Conference. They will, at that point, still be a large step away from being competitive in the Patriot League.

I have no idea about Marist's academic credentials, and am quickly coming to the conclusion that it doesn't matter all that much. The Patriot League has to get off its snooty intellectual high horse if it wants to survive. Most of the academic Colgate and Bucknell look alikes are quite content playing at a D-III level (Williams, Amherst, Bates, Bowdoin, Wesleyan, etc., etc.), so potential new members of that ilk aren't exactly growing on trees.

The big athletic plus from Marist would be basketball. Indications are that they would slide right in at or near the top of the Patriot League. God knows that we could use an infusion of quality, and it would be real interesting to see the Crossers and KenZ trying to fit these new kids into their hoops birthright mentality.

Anyway, thanks for asking.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The big athletic plus from Marist would be basketball. Indications are that they would slide right in at or near the top of the Patriot League. God knows that we could use an infusion of quality, and it would be real interesting to see the Crossers and KenZ trying to fit these new kids into their hoops birthright mentality.

Anyway, thanks for asking.

I'm glad you brought this up again. Basketball was originally what I saw Marist as such an attractive option in the first place. Not only for shoe-horning one of the more powerful MAAC programs into the Patriot League but with the possibility of more to come: Loyola, maybe Manhattan, Iona... Maybe sprinkle in an A-10 team that comes down the pike like St. Bonnie, perhaps LaSalle... all of a sudden you may have a real mid-major conference that isn't the Bison/Crusader invitational every year. With possible basketball teams in NYC, Baltimore and/or Philly.

True, football would only be a secondary consideration in this. However, I've seen no indication that Marist is downgrading their FB program or letting it wither and die like LaSalle, St. Peter's, Fairfield, St. Johns, etc. etc. did. If anything, the new turf would demonstrate some sort of renewed commitment - and joining the Pioneer League for certain does.

I see no reason to believe that Marist couldn't be a competitive program in the Patriot in football in a few years if they applied themselves to do so.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Please add Army. Now that Paul Johnson has left Navy I expect them to return to mediocrity.

I'm becoming more and more convinced that Army and Navy should join FCS and become a part of the Patriot League. With the "FCS wins count for bowl eligibility" now a part of the football landscape, Air Force can still schedule Army and Navy for the commanders-in-chief trophy (and Notre Dame, etc.) and still go to a bowl if they want. Furthermore, they still would be recruiting from the same pool of candidates they always have been going for.

Looking objectively this year, if Army were in FCS I think they'd be a sub-.500 team. Navy would be in the running for the Patriot League title, but I don't think they'd be a shoo-in.

[dgreco]

Does seating matter when some of the PL teams are drawing about 2,500-4,500 ? I mean if they can draw 5K they can draw 5K, why upgrade to 10,000 and draw the same?

[Seawolf97]

Does seating matter when some of the PL teams are drawing about 2,500-4,500 ? I mean if they can draw 5K they can draw 5K, why upgrade to 10,000 and draw the same?


For most of us expanding your stadium is always a gamble. You have to maintain a winning program against top caliber teams to get the fans. Since none of us will have home games against even a modest FBS team-we have to count on rivalries and getting teams like UMass, Princeton etc to draw folks. Secondly there is outside competition such as in the New York area with all pro teams in action during our season-NFL, MLB and soon the NHL and NBA. So if you are going to spend a university's money lets hope you can recoup on your investment. So this is tricky business.

[DFW HOYA]

I'm becoming more and more convinced that Army and Navy should join FCS and become a part of the Patriot League. With the "FCS wins count for bowl eligibility" now a part of the football landscape, Air Force can still schedule Army and Navy for the commanders-in-chief trophy (and Notre Dame, etc.) and still go to a bowl if they want. Furthermore, they still would be recruiting from the same pool of candidates they always have been going for.

Army and Navy should (and will) remain at I-A. As long as Air Force can compete nationally and go to bowls, no general in the Pentagon wants to hear the AF brass sneer that the Army and Navy can't compete anymore. The fact is, Navy can compete and has done a solid job of late, but West Point has become a revolving door for coaches and it shows in the record.

Football helps USMA and USNA recruit nationally and the Army-Navy game is a big part of that. CBS will not show the Army-Navy game as a I-AA encounter, period, and the Navy-Notre Dame series is above reproach. These schools cannot be bowl-eligible in I-AA under any circumstances that I'm aware of.

And who expects to see Army trade in away games with 70,000 or more in attendance...for games at the unfinished Multi-Sport Field? xlolx

[TheValleyRaider]

I'd still be in favor of seeing Marist as a Patriot League member, full or affiliate

Their whole athletic program would be a boost to the League, one of the MAAC's best xnodx

I would think they'd like the prestige associated with a move to the Patriot League, but perhaps they feel burned by not being accepted last time? Or maybe they have a contract with the Pioneer League they aren't willing to break/buy out? xchinscratchx

[Seawolf97]

Army and Navy should (and will) remain at I-A. As long as Air Force can compete nationally and go to bowls, no general in the Pentagon wants to hear the AF brass sneer that the Army and Navy can't compete anymore. The fact is, Navy can compete and has done a solid job of late, but West Point has become a revolving door for coaches and it shows in the record.

Football helps USMA and USNA recruit nationally and the Army-Navy game is a big part of that. CBS will not show the Army-Navy game as a I-AA encounter, period, and the Navy-Notre Dame series is above reproach. These schools cannot be bowl-eligible in I-AA under any circumstances that I'm aware of.

And who expects to see Army trade in away games with 70,000 or more in attendance...for games at the unfinished Multi-Sport Field? xlolx

Glad you explained it. If Army ever gets its act together and starts winning this drought period will soon be forgotten.xthumbsupx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Army and Navy should (and will) remain at I-A. As long as Air Force can compete nationally and go to bowls, no general in the Pentagon wants to hear the AF brass sneer that the Army and Navy can't compete anymore. The fact is, Navy can compete and has done a solid job of late, but West Point has become a revolving door for coaches and it shows in the record.

True. However, you pull a couple myths out of your hat that are generally pulled out when this is brought up... and it's time to debunk them.


Football helps USMA and USNA recruit nationally and the Army-Navy game is a big part of that. CBS will not show the Army-Navy game as a I-AA encounter, period, and the Navy-Notre Dame series is above reproach. These schools cannot be bowl-eligible in I-AA under any circumstances that I'm aware of.

And who expects to see Army trade in away games with 70,000 or more in attendance...for games at the unfinished Multi-Sport Field? xlolx

I hear this about USMA and USNA needing their football teams to play nationally in order to get recruits. Last I checked, Harvard and Yale are recruiting just fine and they don't play nationally very often. I find it incredibly hard to believe that military recruiting will suffer because USMA and USNA will play Colgate and Yale instead of Bowling Green and Temple - not least due to ROTC in colleges and national ad campaigns.

Why is it a given that CBS would give up Army/Navy if it's a Patriot League game? Not only do they generally televise Army/Navy in basketball, there's a precedent: NBC televises the Bayou Classic, which is an FCS matchup as well.

Of course, Army would rather stay FBS, go (very likely) 0-11... for what purpose? To soothe egos? Navy would rather stay FBS to struggle to be over .500 (with a heavily dumbed-down schedule, mind you)... for what purpose? An all-expense paid trip to some San Diego or Hawai'i Bowl?

[TheValleyRaider]

Why is it a given that CBS would give up Army/Navy if it's a Patriot League game? Not only do they generally televise Army/Navy in basketball, there's a precedent: NBC televises the Bayou Classic, which is an FCS matchup as well.

They televise Army/Navy Basketball because Army and Navy make them as part of the deal for televising the Football game.

I do think, though, that the Bayou Classic is a good comparison, as even as an FCS matchup, Army and Navy would still have the large national following and viewership for their meetings

[DFW HOYA]

Why is it a given that CBS would give up Army/Navy if it's a Patriot League game? Not only do they generally televise Army/Navy in basketball, there's a precedent: NBC televises the Bayou Classic, which is an FCS matchup as well.

State Farm subsidizes getting Grambling-Southern on TV, but no other I-AA games make it to a broadcast network, not even the I-AA final.

CBS commits to broadcasting Army-Navy because of ratings, ratings that would soon disappear if these were two I-AA schools without national visibility the rest of the season. It's the same reason why Harvard-Yale is no longer on ABC--outside the I-A limelight, a lot of people don't care anymore.

[Bull Fan]

The Bayou Classic being televised absolutely reeks of affirmative action.

There, said it, it's out of the way. xeekx

[Franks Tanks]

State Farm subsidizes getting Grambling-Southern on TV, but no other I-AA games make it to a broadcast network, not even the I-AA final.

CBS commits to broadcasting Army-Navy because of ratings, ratings that would soon disappear if these were two I-AA schools without national visibility the rest of the season. It's the same reason why Harvard-Yale is no longer on ABC--outside the I-A limelight, a lot of people don't care anymore.

Sorry Hoya I dont agree with you on this one. How does moving to FCS change the Army/Navy game one bit? The only time either school gets a game on a national network is when they play each other or play Notre Dame. They are already far removed from the limelight and without Johnson's recent run both programs woul be moribound. However, the game would still mater due to bragging rites etc. Watch Army play they would barely be a decent FCS team. I doubt they would win the Patriot League.

[ngineer]

True. However, you pull a couple myths out of your hat that are generally pulled out when this is brought up... and it's time to debunk them.



I hear this about USMA and USNA needing their football teams to play nationally in order to get recruits. Last I checked, Harvard and Yale are recruiting just fine and they don't play nationally very often. I find it incredibly hard to believe that military recruiting will suffer because USMA and USNA will play Colgate and Yale instead of Bowling Green and Temple - not least due to ROTC in colleges and national ad campaigns.

Why is it a given that CBS would give up Army/Navy if it's a Patriot League game? Not only do they generally televise Army/Navy in basketball, there's a precedent: NBC televises the Bayou Classic, which is an FCS matchup as well.

Of course, Army would rather stay FBS, go (very likely) 0-11... for what purpose? To soothe egos? Navy would rather stay FBS to struggle to be over .500 (with a heavily dumbed-down schedule, mind you)... for what purpose? An all-expense paid trip to some San Diego or Hawai'i Bowl?

The simple answer is "yes". The military brass will not accept a 'degrading' of the academies' football program. Too many large egos in the Pentagon.

[Husky Alum]

Northeastern approached the PL in 2004 when we were exploring options outside of the America East.

We were told "too big, not academically strong enough, football scholarships".

We said "we're not as big as we used to be, we're a USNWR Top 100 school, and we can do something with the football scholarships if it's a deal breaker"

We were told "we're not expanding".

I don't think Holy Cross wants us in - for HC to consider NU it's equal enough to compete athletically would bruise many a Crusader alumni's ego.

That being said, if we were approached and we were told "reduce or eliminate football scholarships and you're in" - we'd probably jump at it to avoid our "football question".

[DFW HOYA]

Another reason not to join I-AA: each school is now guaranteed a bowl game every other year:

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/news?slug=ap-dcsbowl&prov=ap&type=lgns

OK, so Army and Navy aren't dropping to I-AA, while Fordham and Georgetown aren't coming for basketball. That having been said, Carney's original point on the likelihood of meaningful PL expansion seems to be the case.

[carney2]

I'm becoming more and more convinced that Army and Navy should join FCS

Just reiterating what others have said:

This ain't gonna happen in my lifetime.

But then, I'm guessing that I'm older than you.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Another reason not to join I-AA: each school is now guaranteed a bowl game every other year:

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/news?slug=ap-dcsbowl&prov=ap&type=lgns

OK, so Army and Navy aren't dropping to I-AA, while Fordham and Georgetown aren't coming for basketball. That having been said, Carney's original point on the likelihood of meaningful PL expansion seems to be the case.


This year’s game will pit host Navy against the No. 9 eligible team from the Atlantic Coast Conference—assuming, of course, that the Midshipmen and the No. 9 ACC team each win six games. Otherwise, organizers will have to choose from a potentially unappetizing array of bowl-eligible teams from elsewhere.

I give this "bowl" perhaps two years of life. For real, the No. 9 ACC team? And the bowl is pretty much guaranteed to get some team that is hovering around .500? Isn't this kind-of like saying that Army and Navy can't fight the elite armed of the world so we're going to spar against Guatemala's?

"Come see Navy spar against Florida Atlantic in the EagleBank Bowl!"

:pumpuke:

Of pathetic bowl games, this has to approach the most pathetic - well, at least they don't have to pay money to have a bowl game like the Sun Belt and MAC have to do, I suppose.

I agree with everyone that Army and Navy won't be joining the PL anytime soon, although it should happen. But hey, enjoy your 0-11 seasons.

It's a given that Georgetown won't be coming in basketball. The only way Georgetown would come to the Patriot League would be in all other sports except basketball, and that could be a potential byproduct of the breakup of the Big East (JMHO).

Likewise, Fordham cold very well end up in the Patriot League in all sports again as part of the Big East shakeup as well (JMHO) simply because it is my impression there is institutional support for it.

I do agree if the Big East stays the way it is nobody's moving.

[aceinthehole]

I'm 1000% with Carney and DFW.

First, Army and Navy are NEVER going I-AA. In what reality is Navy going to play a conference road game at Georgetown or Fordham? Give up Bowl games and National TV? Navy is guarnteed 2 National TV games a year (ND and Army). When is the last time any PL or Ivy football game has been on NBC or CBS? Army needs to get in some lower bowl games and the Pentagon will be thrilled. They aren't trying to win a National Championship like Ohio State, but they aren't giving up that exposure or prestige of I-A. Don't forget Army left C-USA so they can cherry pick a national Coast-to-coast schedule that will get them the 6 wins for a bowl game. Navy's formula has worked for the past 5-10 years.

The pool of "potential candidates" for PL expansion right now are very limited, and like it or not, Marist is probably top of the list - it only goes downhill from there.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

In what reality is Navy going to play a conference road game at Georgetown or Fordham? Give up Bowl games and National TV? Navy is guarnteed 2 National TV games a year (ND and Army). When is the last time any PL or Ivy football game has been on NBC or CBS? Army needs to get in some lower bowl games and the Pentagon will be thrilled. They aren't trying to win a National Championship like Ohio State, but they aren't giving up that exposure or prestige of I-A. Don't forget Army left C-USA so they can cherry pick a national Coast-to-coast schedule that will get them the 6 wins for a bowl game. Navy's formula has worked for the past 5-10 years.

xnonono2x xnonono2x xnonono2x

You guys are making it sound like Navy and Army are going to be competing in the Orange Bowl or Rose Bowls. In reality, if they become bowl eligible, they're more likely gunning for the EagleBank Bowl, the Poinsettia Bowl - hardly the moneymakers or national exposure that some folks here seem to fantasize that it is.

If CBS is willing to televise Army/Navy when those academies had 3 wins between them in FBS, why on Earth would they stop televising them when it's an FCS game?

What's stopping Navy from being on Notre Dame's schedule as an FCS school? Before (rightfully so) folks had the argument that Notre Dame wouldn't schedule them since they could lose bowl eligibility. That argument no longer holds water - same with Air Force. There's nothing stopping Navy to schedule Air Force and Notre Dame as OOC games every year they desire.

What would stop Georgetown and Fordham scheduling those games in bigger venues? If Fordham thinks they can schedule a game at the Meadowlands or the new Yankee Stadium with Army, why wouldn't they do that? The exact same argument exists for Georgetown - why not RFK, or the Redskins' new stadium?

If they're not competing for championships, I repeat: why are they there? Everyone bandies about "they're going to lose Notre Dame" and "they're going to lose the Army/Navy game on CBS" with no evidence that this would actually happen. Putting forth evidence of a money-losing "bowl" game - in freakin' DC, no less! So much for national exposure! - as a reason to stay borders on the comical.

[Franks Tanks]

I'm 1000% with Carney and DFW.

First, Army and Navy are NEVER going I-AA. In what reality is Navy going to play a conference road game at Georgetown or Fordham? Give up Bowl games and National TV? Navy is guarnteed 2 National TV games a year (ND and Army). When is the last time any PL or Ivy football game has been on NBC or CBS? Army needs to get in some lower bowl games and the Pentagon will be thrilled. They aren't trying to win a National Championship like Ohio State, but they aren't giving up that exposure or prestige of I-A. Don't forget Army left C-USA so they can cherry pick a national Coast-to-coast schedule that will get them the 6 wins for a bowl game. Navy's formula has worked for the past 5-10 years.

The pool of "potential candidates" for PL expansion right now are very limited, and like it or not, Marist is probably top of the list - it only goes downhill from there.


How is that working for them. They are getting their doors blown off by Temple , you cant really go down from there. I wont be surpised if this is another 0 win season for Army unfortunantly, and I doubt they would win 6 games playing an all FCS schedule. Remember they almost lost to a not so good Rhody last year. Lets remember that before PJ came to Navy they were terrible, even worse then Army. When I was being recruited by the academies Army was coming off winning the Commander in Cheif trophy and they displayed it for the recruits. At that time Navy had only won it 3 times-- they were bad for a very long time.


Overall they of course will not move to FCS, but as LFN said competitive wise they should.

[turbodean]

Moving to FCS can not possibly harm their recruiting efforts of top football talent any more than this move has.

Army puts football star's NFL dream on hold

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/07/25/academy.athletes/index.html


Story Highlights
-Caleb Campbell, a West Point football star, was drafted by Detroit Lions
-Army originally said Campbell could play for Lions
-Defense officials say athletes cannot receive exceptions during wartime

The academy's are about recruiting future officers, first and foremost. They are not about recruiting football players.

The FCS makes a lot of sense in a lot of ways. Pride is the biggest obstacle.

[Seawolf97]

Moving to FCS can not possibly harm their recruiting efforts of top football talent any more than this move has.

Army puts football star's NFL dream on hold




The academy's are about recruiting future officers, first and foremost. They are not about recruiting football players.

The FCS makes a lot of sense in a lot of ways. Pride is the biggest obstacle.

That gets in the way of alot of thingsxpeacex

[aceinthehole]

LFN and Frank - stop being naive. This is not about wins and losses or anything on the field. Its about national TV, attendance, and public perception.

Army could be under .500 for the next 2 decades - they still will not move "down" to I-AA and the PL. You know it, I know it, everyone on this board knows it - so don't make any arguments why it "should" happen - IT WON'T.

TV
Army regularly gets football games on ESPN vs. teams like Akron. They have a contract with ESPN which is better than any I-AA team in the country.

Navy has games on ESPN vs. Duke and NIU this year, plus its annual match up with ND.

Army-Navy is arguably the highlight of the college football year for a large part of Americans. Its not about the game as much as it is about pride in the service branch that a family member or friend may have served. Its not a conference game, it will never be.

The PL (and most of I-AA for that matter) gets few if any national TV games all year. Most are local or regional cable productions. The difference in TV coverage between the Service Academies and what the PL has are in 2 different solar systems. Why would they give that up just to join the PL with a chance to win a National Championship at the I-AA level?

Attendance

Army and Navy average more than 30,000 per home game. The top I-AA schools (Montana, Delaware, ASU) are in the low 20,000s.

PL teams are less than 5,000 and its a joke if you think Army wants to play conference FOOTBALL games at Lehigh, Bucknell, or Colgate. Not going to happen - and it SHOULDN'T.

Public Perception

With an independent schedule, they can go anywhere in the country to play anyone. Army left the C-USA so it could have flexibility in scheduling – they wanted wins, but they also wanted to go where Army fans are (Florida, So Cal, Midwest, Pacific Northwest). They use these games as recruiting for the military and being stuck in an East Coast league in mostly small markets, is not good for them.

We can debate and defends the merits of I-AA (which we all love), but in the public and NCAAs perception it is as less presegious level of football. We have smaller budgets, facilities, tv rights, number of schollys, etc.

Its a "step down" no matter how you spin it, and few schools are going to do that. Maybe a few should (like Arkansas State, Wyoming, Nevada, UL-Monroe), but its NEVER going to be Army and Navy.


----

Someone make a real case for Army and Navy to come to I-AA and the PL and I will listen, but it has to be based on the realities that exist and not some homerism for a conference that needs some stability.

[Franks Tanks]

LFN and Frank - stop being naive. This is not about wins and losses or anything on the field. Its about national TV, attendance, and public perception.

Army could be under .500 for the next 2 decades - they still will not move "down" to I-AA and the PL. You know it, I know it, everyone on this board knows it - so don't make any arguments why it "should" happen - IT WON'T.

TV
Army regularly gets football games on ESPN vs. teams like Akron. They have a contract with ESPN which is better than any I-AA team in the country.

Navy has games on ESPN vs. Duke and NIU this year, plus its annual match up with ND.

Army-Navy is arguably the highlight of the college football year for a large part of Americans. Its not about the game as much as it is about pride in the service branch that a family member or friend may have served. Its not a conference game, it will never be.

The PL (and most of I-AA for that matter) gets few if any national TV games all year. Most are local or regional cable productions. The difference in TV coverage between the Service Academies and what the PL has are in 2 different solar systems. Why would they give that up just to join the PL with a chance to win a National Championship at the I-AA level?

Attendance

Army and Navy average more than 30,000 per home game. The top I-AA schools (Montana, Delaware, ASU) are in the low 20,000s.

PL teams are less than 5,000 and its a joke if you think Army wants to play conference FOOTBALL games at Lehigh, Bucknell, or Colgate. Not going to happen - and it SHOULDN'T.

Public Perception

With an independent schedule, they can go anywhere in the country to play anyone. Army left the C-USA so it could have flexibility in scheduling – they wanted wins, but they also wanted to go where Army fans are (Florida, So Cal, Midwest, Pacific Northwest). They use these games as recruiting for the military and being stuck in an East Coast league in mostly small markets, is not good for them.

We can debate and defends the merits of I-AA (which we all love), but in the public and NCAAs perception it is as less presegious level of football. We have smaller budgets, facilities, tv rights, number of schollys, etc.

Its a "step down" no matter how you spin it, and few schools are going to do that. Maybe a few should (like Arkansas State, Wyoming, Nevada, UL-Monroe), but its NEVER going to be Army and Navy.


----

Someone make a real case for Army and Navy to come to I-AA and the PL and I will listen, but it has to be based on the realities that exist and not some homerism for a conference that needs some stability.


I dont doubt that your points above make sense but at some point even the very low level FBS schools will zoom past the academies. I watched Army v Temple and UNH on ESPN and neither game was even close. Army looked outmatched in every aspect of the game. When Temple is killing you where else in there to go?

I understand they get a few games televised and have the flexibility to play schools like Notre Dame or Texas A&M, but how long will this continue in their current state (especially Army of course).

The last time Army played a PL school they lost to Holy Cross 30-21 in 2002. Want to know how Holy Cross finished that year? They finished 4-8 with the other wins that year coming by beating Georgetown, St. Mary's and Bucknell. My leopards finished 7-5 that year and we beat up HC 42-13.

[Redwyn]

aceinthehole is right. While mainstream universities need wins to keep up the momentum and support of their program, Army and Navy supporters are fans not because of quality, but the simple fact that they're Army and Navy.

We can debate this forever, but the final issue is clear. Unless Bucknell triples its alumni and signs a lucrative deal with someone other than their local tv station (sorry to pick on you Bucknell, this goes for all PL schools), then there is zero chance, a negative chance if there ever was one, that Army or Navy will go to I-AA football. There is no point debating about record. Not even the recruits to these program care about the record. They care more about being in the armed services.

[Redwyn]

:pumpuke:



....This might be the best graphic I've ever seen....It just brings so much to mind, including why there are certain things at Chinese takeout places you'd have to be suicidal to try.

[Go...gate]

Northeastern approached the PL in 2004 when we were exploring options outside of the America East.

We were told "too big, not academically strong enough, football scholarships".

We said "we're not as big as we used to be, we're a USNWR Top 100 school, and we can do something with the football scholarships if it's a deal breaker"

We were told "we're not expanding".

I don't think Holy Cross wants us in - for HC to consider NU it's equal enough to compete athletically would bruise many a Crusader alumni's ego.

That being said, if we were approached and we were told "reduce or eliminate football scholarships and you're in" - we'd probably jump at it to avoid our "football question".


I'm astounded to hear this. It always seemed to me that NE (like Hofstra) made sense because both schools (like American) are pouring millions into their academic facilities and striving to improve their academic profile. Sports, while important at both schools, are kept in perspective. That the PL blew you off, just as it blew off Hofstra in 1993-94, is troubling.

[Go...gate]

For most of us expanding your stadium is always a gamble. You have to maintain a winning program against top caliber teams to get the fans. Since none of us will have home games against even a modest FBS team-we have to count on rivalries and getting teams like UMass, Princeton etc to draw folks. Secondly there is outside competition such as in the New York area with all pro teams in action during our season-NFL, MLB and soon the NHL and NBA. So if you are going to spend a university's money lets hope you can recoup on your investment. So this is tricky business.

That is an interesting story if there ever was one. Princeton built a terrific 27,800 seat stadium (expandable to 30,000 or more) in 1998 but barely breaks 12,000 for any game (even Harvard, Penn or Yale) anymore. Talk about a white elephant. I don't know how Yale, Penn and Harvard feel about financial end of the restoration of their own beautiful old ballparks, but Princeton clearly overbuilt in its case.

[aceinthehole]

I dont doubt that your points above make sense but at some point even the very low level FBS schools will zoom past the academies. I watched Army v Temple and UNH on ESPN and neither game was even close. Army looked outmatched in every aspect of the game. When Temple is killing you where else in there to go?

I understand they get a few games televised and have the flexibility to play schools like Notre Dame or Texas A&M, but how long will this continue in their current state (especially Army of course).

The last time Army played a PL school they lost to Holy Cross 30-21 in 2002. Want to know how Holy Cross finished that year? They finished 4-8 with the other wins that year coming by beating Georgetown, St. Mary's and Bucknell. My leopards finished 7-5 that year and we beat up HC 42-13.


Frank - to be clear, there a few FBS schools that might be a better fit in I-AA (most of the Sun Belt, etc.). What I'm saying is ARMY and NAVY are not in that boat. They belong as I-A Independents.

The Army C-USA, spread pro-offense experiement failed misearbly. I think they are on the right track if they mimick Navy's formula. Win 6 games vs. the I-A bottom feeders, play one I-AA team per year, and get one or 2 games vs. a national powerhouse for some exposure.

If I'm the Army AD my ideal schedule would look something like this:

Home buy game - I-AA team (Maine)
Away $$$ games - 1 top-30 BCS team (at UCLA)
Service Acadamies - Air Force and Navy

8 Home/home (2-yr) deals:
- 5 games with teams from Sun Belt, MAC, WAC, C-USA (Florida Atl, Houston, Marshall, Colorado State, NM State)
- 3 games with lower-tier BCS schools (Washington State, Northwestern, NC State)

---

Navy basically does this, look at their 2008 schedule:

Towson (I-AA)
Notre Dame (historically Top-30)
Army and AF (Service Acadamies)
====
at Ball State (MAC)
at NIU (MAC)
vs Temple (MAC)
vs SMU (C-USA)

at Duke (ACC)
at Wake Forest (ACC) *top-25 this year

at Pitt (BE)
vs Rutgers (BE)

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I think they are on the right track if they mimick Navy's formula. Win 6 games vs. the I-A bottom feeders, play one I-AA team per year, and get one or 2 games vs. a national powerhouse for some exposure.

How, praytell, is this essentially different from The Citadel's schedule? The line between "I-A bottom feeders" and the best teams in FCS are essentially minimal, and getting two "money games" are the norm for a whole bunch of FCS teams these days.

You may as well say that Navy's formula is to create an FCS schedule with FBS teams.

[aceinthehole]

How, praytell, is this essentially different from The Citadel's schedule? The line between "I-A bottom feeders" and the best teams in FCS are essentially minimal, and getting two "money games" are the norm for a whole bunch of FCS teams these days.

You may as well say that Navy's formula is to create an FCS schedule with FBS teams.

Citadel
8/30 Webber International
9/06 @ Clemson
9/20 Princeton
9/27 Western Carolina
10/04 @ Appalachian State (Sports South)
10/11 Elon
10/18 @ Furman
10/25 @ Samford
11/01 Georgia Southern
11/08 @ Wofford
11/15 Chattanooga
11/22 @ No. 4 Florida

NAVY
August 30 Towson (CSTV)
September 5 at Ball State (ESPN)
September 13 at Duke (ESPNU)
September 20 Rutgers (CSTV)
September 27 at No. 20 Wake Forest
October 4 at Air Force (VERSUS)
October 18 Pittsburgh (CSTV)
October 25 Southern Methodist (CSTV)
November 1 Temple (CSTV)
November 15 Notre Dame (CBS)
November 25 at Northern Illinois (ESPN2)
December 6 at Army (CBS)

----

Um... I think the TV exposure speaks for itself. Navy is a NATIONAL program, very simply the Citadel and the PL are not. Every Navy game is on TV, many of which are national broadcasts.

Citadel is getting 2 money games on the road. Navy will host 2 Big East teams in Annapolis. Navy will be fighting for a bowl game, while Citadel with fight for a playoff spot that most people in the country will never know about.

Like it or not, Navy will be in DC playing in a bowl game watched by thousands in person and more on TV. The Citadel and Lehigh will both be home watching too.

More people will be at just one Navy game this year than will show up at Fordham or Holy Cross all season long!

Again, its not really about wins or losses or the caliber of players on the field. LFN - you do a good job, but you lose credibility when you state Army and Navy belong in I-AA or the PL.

This is not putting I-AA down (again we all love it), but I-A is a different beast and that is where Army and Navy belong. You are way off!

[Marcus Garvey]

Sweet Jesus is this thread bloated.

I saw some DIII names tossed around, so I thought I'd chime in, specifically Johns Hopkins and Gettysburg.

If DocQB is around, I believe played at JHU, and can offer more insight (if he already hasn't, as I've not read the complete thread). But Johnny Hopkins likes their "big-time" lacrosse team and are quite happy with their DIII arangements with the Centennial Conference. There are some solid schools in that league, including Swarthmore, Haverford and Bryn Mawr (yeah, I know, only for female sports). When Muhlenberg and McDaniel (nee Western Maryland) are your weakest academic links, you're doing well. JHU has never, to my knowledge, shown any interest in upgrading.

Gettysburg (another Centennial member) is an interesting name. They were once part of the old Middle Atlantic - University Division, along with Delaware, Lehigh, Lafayette and Temple to name a few. They decided to downgrade to DIII in the mid 70's from (then) DII and stopped playing Lehigh, Lafayette and Bucknell. I don't think they've ever regretted that decision.

[Seawolf97]

Citadel
8/30 Webber International
9/06 @ Clemson
9/20 Princeton
9/27 Western Carolina
10/04 @ Appalachian State (Sports South)
10/11 Elon
10/18 @ Furman
10/25 @ Samford
11/01 Georgia Southern
11/08 @ Wofford
11/15 Chattanooga
11/22 @ No. 4 Florida

NAVY
August 30 Towson (CSTV)
September 5 at Ball State (ESPN)
September 13 at Duke (ESPNU)
September 20 Rutgers (CSTV)
September 27 at No. 20 Wake Forest
October 4 at Air Force (VERSUS)
October 18 Pittsburgh (CSTV)
October 25 Southern Methodist (CSTV)
November 1 Temple (CSTV)
November 15 Notre Dame (CBS)
November 25 at Northern Illinois (ESPN2)
December 6 at Army (CBS)

----

Um... I think the TV exposure speaks for itself. Navy is a NATIONAL program, very simply the Citadel and the PL are not. Every Navy game is on TV, many of which are national broadcasts.

Citadel is getting 2 money games on the road. Navy will host 2 Big East teams in Annapolis. Navy will be fighting for a bowl game, while Citadel with fight for a playoff spot that most people in the country will never know about.

Like it or not, Navy will be in DC playing in a bowl game watched by thousands in person and more on TV. The Citadel and Lehigh will both be home watching too.

More people will be at just one Navy game this year than will show up at Fordham or Holy Cross all season long!

Again, its not really about wins or losses or the caliber of players on the field. LFN - you do a good job, but you lose credibility when you state Army and Navy belong in I-AA or the PL.

This is not putting I-AA down (again we all love it), but I-A is a different beast and that is where Army and Navy belong. You are way off!

You forgot to mention one home game for Navy -Notre Dame. We in FCS at any level wont have a home game like that until the next milleniumxcoffeex

[aceinthehole]

You forgot to mention one home game for Navy -Notre Dame. We in FCS at any level wont have a home game like that until the next milleniumxcoffeex

True, but that's really never a "home" game for the Mids.

Every other year the Navy "home game" is played at places such as Baltimore (closest to a true home game), Landover MD, East Rutherford NJ, Orlando FL, Dublin Ireland, Philly.

This is basically a buy game for ND, with Navy getting to wear home colors and additional tickets every other year at the ND away site. I'm pretty sure ND gets the gate everywhere and just pays Navy out. Its a great deal for both sides, but its not a true home/home.

[Bull Fan]

Navy and Army are two institutions that should be equal in success, but are not, at least today. I caught the UNH game, and Army unfortunately isn't impressive. It's a shame.

My opinion is that the war is NOT helping the USMA program right now, but I'm sure that view could be countered with some intelligent rebuttal. The quality of football player hasn't been good at West Point in a dog's age, but yet Annapolis can put together a team and achieve moderate success facing the same hurdles. I'd like to understand what the root of this is....

Either way, they don't belong in the Patriot League because I don't think it's a right fit for anyone involved. I have a ton of respect for the league schools, as well as the academies.

It would be a renaissance to see the Reifsnyders, Staubachs, Blanchards and Davis' playing for the service academies once again, but sadly I think those days will never be seen again.

[Franks Tanks]

Navy and Army are two institutions that should be equal in success, but are not, at least today. I caught the UNH game, and Army unfortunately isn't impressive. It's a shame.

My opinion is that the war is NOT helping the USMA program right now, but I'm sure that view could be countered with some intelligent rebuttal. The quality of football player hasn't been good at West Point in a dog's age, but yet Annapolis can put together a team and achieve moderate success facing the same hurdles. I'd like to understand what the root of this is....

Either way, they don't belong in the Patriot League because I don't think it's a right fit for anyone involved. I have a ton of respect for the league schools, as well as the academies.

It would be a renaissance to see the Reifsnyders, Staubachs, Blanchards and Davis' playing for the service academies once again, but sadly I think those days will never be seen again.

Army is typically considered the most difficult of the academies when it comes to military commitment when in school-- this doesnt help. Basically Army should have never fired Bob Sutton. He is/was a solid coach as they were moderatly successful. Todd Berry or whatever his name is ruined the program when he scrapped the triple option in favor of the spread. Army sinply didnt have the athletes to compete and this coincided with Navy hiring PJ and taking off. Navy started attracting the better athletes.

Army has finally returned to the triple option but it frankly looks pathetic. They either dont have the proper personnel or the coaches dont know how to run the O-- or a bit of both.

[aceinthehole]

Frank, I agree.

While Army will always have some difficulties recruiting top-flight I-A talent, their previous coaching and offensive style hurt them even more. That damage will take a few seasons to repair. Moving to a custom schedule and an option offense will help and they should be able to achieve Navy-type success. They need to improve coaching and find the right guys for that type of system.

Army probably does have the toughest military commitment during school and after graduation. All academies have incredible standards for student-athletes and that will always keep them at a disadvantage to the football factories out there. But they remain programs with national appeal and belong in I-A.

Good Army and Navy programs are good for college football and the nation. Certainly our overseas commitments aren't helping recruiting anywhere right now and the Pentagon is aware of that fact. I love watching those guys play anyone!

Given time, Army can be a good program again, but the days of Blanchards are probably never coming back. Too bad.

[Marcus Garvey]

Frank, I agree.

While Army will always have some difficulties recruiting top-flight I-A talent, their previous coaching and offensive style hurt them even more. That damage will take a few seasons to repair. Moving to a custom schedule and an option offense will help and they should be able to achieve Navy-type success. They need to improve coaching and find the right guys for that type of system.

Army probably does have the toughest military commitment during school and after graduation. All academies have incredible standards for student-athletes and that will always keep them at a disadvantage to the football factories out there. But they remain programs with national appeal and belong in I-A.

Good Army and Navy programs are good for college football and the nation. Certainly our overseas commitments aren't helping recruiting anywhere right now and the Pentagon is aware of that fact. I love watching those guys play anyone!

Given time, Army can be a good program again, but the days of Blanchards are probably never coming back. Too bad.

2 things have really hurt Army and Navy's ability to compete with the upper tier of major college football:

1) Players have gotten much bigger. The weight restrictions at the academies make all but impossible for them to match any Top 10 team in size.
2) The rise of the NFL. The possibility of playing professionally in the NFL, no matter how remote that chance may be, has made the military committent unattractive to most I-A high school recruits.

Now those aren't the only reasons, but IMO, those are the 2 biggest.

[carney2]

Memo to LFN:

How did you get yourself into this mess?

Extricate!! I say again, extricate!!!

Two simple rules:

1. When you read some of this stuff that you feel needs a rebuttal, slap yourself silly.

2. Give your keyboard to your spouse and instruct her to slap you silly if you ask for it back before...oh, let's say, October.

Either way, get some sense slapped into you.

God, am I ever regretting having started this thread.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Memo to LFN:

How did you get yourself into this mess?

Extricate!! I say again, extricate!!!

Two simple rules:

1. When you read some of this stuff that you feel needs a rebuttal, slap yourself silly.

2. Give your keyboard to your spouse and instruct her to slap you silly if you ask for it back before...oh, let's say, October.

Either way, get some sense slapped into you.

God, am I ever regretting having started this thread.

No, really, is carney the only person I give Rep points to?

*slap* Ow.
*slap* Ow.
*slap* Ow.

[carney2]

If I'm getting all these "Rep points," how come I'm not rich? What are they, anyway?

[JD51]

I'd still be in favor of seeing Marist as a Patriot League member, full or affiliate

Their whole athletic program would be a boost to the League, one of the MAAC's best xnodx

I would think they'd like the prestige associated with a move to the Patriot League, but perhaps they feel burned by not being accepted last time? Or maybe they have a contract with the Pioneer League they aren't willing to break/buy out? xchinscratchx

I’m a bit biased being a Marist grad, but the geographic rivalries created by adding Marist to PL seem of some benefit in most sports. Joining the PFL appeared to be the only option available with the PL opting not to accept them. Granted, Marist gains more by inclusion than the Patriot League does by accepting them. Marist’s academics are getting stronger, but I’m not daft enough to suggest they yet approach those of the PL schools and their endowment is tiny by comparison. Association with the league would surely help on those fronts. Athletically there is an argument that adding Marist would help on the basketball front (especially with the tournament success the women’s team has had).

Also, there was the demise of MAAC football and now Mt. St. Mary’s and Wagner are leaving the MAAC Lacrosse League for the newly formed NEC Men's Lacrosse League. Marist may be shopping for a new conference in all sports. Whether or not the PL wants them is a different story. At the very least you’d have a football team to beat up on for a few years.

[Go...gate]

Memo to LFN:

How did you get yourself into this mess?

Extricate!! I say again, extricate!!!

Two simple rules:

1. When you read some of this stuff that you feel needs a rebuttal, slap yourself silly.

2. Give your keyboard to your spouse and instruct her to slap you silly if you ask for it back before...oh, let's say, October.

Either way, get some sense slapped into you.

God, am I ever regretting having started this thread.

This is a great thread, Carney2!!

[Ken_Z]

This is a great thread, Carney2!!

agreed, kudos to carney. i may on rare occasions have a bit of fun at carney's expense, but the decision to start this 37th thread on PL expanions was truly inspired. thirteen pages of posts and going strong, this won't be outdone until i start the 38th thread on PL expansion in October.

[carney2]

agreed, kudos to carney. i may on rare occasions have a bit of fun at carney's expense, but the decision to start this 37th thread on PL expanions was truly inspired. thirteen pages of posts and going strong, this won't be outdone until i start the 38th thread on PL expansion in October.

You, we'll ignore.xsmiley_wix

[Go...gate]

Bottom line, fellows, is that it is an idea about which a decision is needed from the league.

[carney2]

Bottom line, fellows, is that it is an idea about which a decision is needed from the league.

And a "decision" by the Patriot League is one that is preceded by a lengthy study to determine what the Ivy League is doing and ends in doing absolutely nothing. Doing nothing is the result of a decision, you know.

[ngineer]

This thread will rival Seinfeld...The "Thread About Nothing"...xrolleyesx

Or, howabout "Groundhog Thread"...The same laments just keep recycling as the PL 'poohbahs' diddle in their ivory towers.:(

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I’m a bit biased being a Marist grad, but the geographic rivalries created by adding Marist to PL seem of some benefit in most sports. Joining the PFL appeared to be the only option available with the PL opting not to accept them. Granted, Marist gains more by inclusion than the Patriot League does by accepting them. Marist’s academics are getting stronger, but I’m not daft enough to suggest they yet approach those of the PL schools and their endowment is tiny by comparison. Association with the league would surely help on those fronts. Athletically there is an argument that adding Marist would help on the basketball front (especially with the tournament success the women’s team has had).

Also, there was the demise of MAAC football and now Mt. St. Mary’s and Wagner are leaving the MAAC Lacrosse League for the newly formed NEC Men's Lacrosse League. Marist may be shopping for a new conference in all sports. Whether or not the PL wants them is a different story. At the very least you’d have a football team to beat up on for a few years.

I'll stop slapping myself JD and bid you a welcome to AGS.

I've been keeping an eye on the Lacrosse thing for quite some time as well as the generalized demise of the MAAC since the Patriot League could conceivably get some of those teams.

[Husky Alum]

I'm astounded to hear this. It always seemed to me that NE (like Hofstra) made sense because both schools (like American) are pouring millions into their academic facilities and striving to improve their academic profile. Sports, while important at both schools, are kept in perspective. That the PL blew you off, just as it blew off Hofstra in 1993-94, is troubling.

I heard it from several people at the school. In fact, I believe the phrase "we practically were laughed at" was used.

We're not an Ivy academically, but we've come along way from the academic nightmare we were in the 80s and early 90s.

I would wager if someone asked us now, we'd likely consider it as well.

Ask your friends in Worcester what they think of us as an academic school, their answer drives the attitude that kept/keeps us out of the PL.

[TheValleyRaider]

I heard it from several people at the school. In fact, I believe the phrase "we practically were laughed at" was used.

We're not an Ivy academically, but we've come along way from the academic nightmare we were in the 80s and early 90s.

I would wager if someone asked us now, we'd likely consider it as well.

Given we've accepted American since then (that was late 90s, right?), and without knowing the comparison between Northeastern and American academically, could the PL potentially be pursuaded this time around?

Perhaps Northeastern would have to think hard, especially given they just entered the CAA xchinscratchx

[JetsLuvver]

If Temple would ever give up the delusion that they're a "big time" football school, build a stadium of their own and drop down, I think they would be an ideal member of the Patriot League.

[Pard94]

If Temple would ever give up the delusion that they're a "big time" football school, build a stadium of their own and drop down, I think they would be an ideal member of the Patriot League.


My border collie was accepted to Temple early decision. She ultimately decided to go to West Chester though.

[Franks Tanks]

If Temple would ever give up the delusion that they're a "big time" football school, build a stadium of their own and drop down, I think they would be an ideal member of the Patriot League.

Temple has 25k undergrads and is located in a major city, they should be able to field at least a somewhat competive team, but that doesnt happen. Hey at least they smoked Army and we'll see what they do against Buffalo this week

[carney2]

This thread will rival Seinfeld...The "Thread About Nothing"...xrolleyesx

Or, howabout "Groundhog Thread"...The same laments just keep recycling as the PL 'poohbahs' diddle in their ivory towers.:(

Here's a guy that deserves some Rep points.

[Marcus Garvey]

If Temple would ever give up the delusion that they're a "big time" football school, build a stadium of their own and drop down, I think they would be an ideal member of the Patriot League.

What are you smoking? They have over 24,000 undergraduates. And while, like Northeastern, they are becomming less of a commuter school, it's still just an overgrown high school.

Temple's connection with the Lehigh, Lafayette and Bucknell ended in the late 60's when they, along with Pitt, became state-supported. Going I-A for football made sense, they've just executed it poorly.

[Marcus Garvey]

Temple has 25k undergrads and is located in a major city, they should be able to field at least a somewhat competive team, but that doesnt happen. Hey at least they smoked Army and we'll see what they do against Buffalo this week

Until recently, Temple was a commuter school. Yeah, there was some housing for students available, but it was pretty negligible. For years, Temple's recruiting base was the middle class kids in Philly, Well, since the middle-class began fleeing the city in droves in the 70's, the football program suffered.

Al Golden should be Temple's last shot to field a competitive program. The school is changing to a more traditional college with on-campus housing. Their downgraded scheduling helps too. If he is unable to make a go of it with those factors, then I'll be the first to declare it's high time Temple drop football.
No, I won't even advocate they drop to I-AA. A school of their size, given it's location, and lack of stadium/need to use the Eagles stadium means they need to be I-A or not have a program at all.

[JD51]

I'll stop slapping myself JD and bid you a welcome to AGS.

I've been keeping an eye on the Lacrosse thing for quite some time as well as the generalized demise of the MAAC since the Patriot League could conceivably get some of those teams.

Thanks for the welcome LFH.

And believe me I had my misgivings about adding my first post to this well worn thread, but last I checked there aren’t a heck of a lot of conversations happening out there that include Marist football.

[Go...gate]

Thanks for the welcome LFH.

And believe me I had my misgivings about adding my first post to this well worn thread, but last I checked there aren’t a heck of a lot of conversations happening out there that include Marist football.

Ditto the welcome to our board. Like your new ballpark - very nice!

[bostonspider]

Well if some of the CAA Schools do decide FBS is the way to go (i.e. JMU / ODU / UD) and the PL does ever get off it's ass about scholarships, maybe UR and W&M could be enticed to join the PL for football at least. I do not think UR would want to have the basketball programs in the PL, as the A-10 is a pretty highly ranked league (3 teams in NCAA's this past year). Now that UR is building First Market Stadium on campus and does not have to worry about the look of 8K people in a 22K seat stadium, it could happen if the PL was willing to make the effort to be competitive with scholarships. I am somewhat in the dark about how W&M would feel, but have to imagine that they are beginning to feel like a fish out of water in the CAA with schools like GSU, Towson, ODU and GMU

[Go...gate]

I heard it from several people at the school. In fact, I believe the phrase "we practically were laughed at" was used.

We're not an Ivy academically, but we've come along way from the academic nightmare we were in the 80s and early 90s.

I would wager if someone asked us now, we'd likely consider it as well.

Ask your friends in Worcester what they think of us as an academic school, their answer drives the attitude that kept/keeps us out of the PL.

As a long-time (read: OLD) Colgate fan and grad, I have great respect for Holy Cross and regard our historical relationship with them as special; we are both about the same size and, while academics have always been the most important thing, athletics were also taken very seriously. However, in the past 15-20 years or so, their administration has really left a lot to be desired on both counts. This sounds like the same sh-t they pulled on the ECAC Hockey League, which really wanted them, but they were not willing to "commit" to revovations to their rink, among other things (we ended up with Quinnipiac as a result, which is not really a match with the other schools - I believe the difference will show itself in the next few years, since QU can recruit damn near anybody, including the Border Collie mentioned in another post). They dropped their requirement for SAT submission by all applicants, which, IMO, will lower their academic profile in the long term. They bitched and moaned repeatedly over having to drop scholarships for FB (they had them for 8-10 years after everybody else did and had to be forced to end the practice cold turkey, rather than a wind-down). They held up the PL and threatened to leave twice over BB scholarships and ultimately strong-armed the rest of us in this policy change. They were one of the schools (along with Colgate xrolleyesx) which did not want to admit Hofstra to the PL in '93-'94. And they stood in the doorway for Northeastern too? Geez...xsmhx

BTW, I think you are being a little hard on your alma mater Northeastern, which is another school which has focused on raising its profile in the post WWII period. They spent their money on professors, bricks and mortar, which is why they still use Parsons Field. Sounds like they have their priorities in order!

Colgate did the same thing for many years. Andy Kerr was a pretty spartan ballpark in the 1960's, '70's and '80's because Colgate raised and spent tens of millions on the quality of its education. IMO, they made the right choice. Indeed, Lafayette did a similar thing.

[danefan]

Now that this expansion thread cycle has come up, we're about due for a CAA Split/America East/Big East Demise thread any day now.

These things happen in cycles.

[TheValleyRaider]

As a long-time (read: OLD) Colgate fan and grad, I have great respect for Holy Cross and regard our historical relationship with them as special; we are both about the same size and, while academics have always been the most important thing, athletics were also taken very seriously. However, in the past 15-20 years or so, their administration has really left a lot to be desired on both counts. This sounds like the same sh-t they pulled on the ECAC Hockey League, which really wanted them, but they were not willing to "commit" to revovations to their rink, among other things (we ended up with Quinnipiac as a result, which is not really a match with the other schools - I believe the difference will show itself in the next few years, since QU can recruit damn near anybody, including the Border Collie mentioned in another post). They dropped their requirement for SAT submission by all applicants, which, IMO, will lower their academic profile in the long term. They bitched and moaned repeatedly over having to drop scholarships for FB (they had them for 8-10 years after everybody else did and had to be forced to end the practice cold turkey, rather than a wind-down). They held up the PL and threatened to leave twice over BB scholarships and ultimately strong-armed the rest of us in this policy change. They were one of the schools (along with Colgate xrolleyesx) which did not want to admit Hofstra to the PL in '93-'94. And they stood in the doorway for Northeastern too? Geez...xsmhx

RE: Holy Cross hockey and the ECAC

I believe all they really had to do for membership was move their women's team from D-III to D-I. Didn't even have to give scholarships or anything, just move them up (along with RPI) so that the League would have 12 members for Men's and Women's Hockey.

Wouldn't surprise me if the ECAC wanted them to put a little more into their rink (it's small, one-sided), but I have to believe the League would have been flexible on that point. They've also got a downtown arena (DCU Center) that while not the nicest, is good enough for an NCAA Regional. The new rink for Q-pac was one of the big things they had going for them once HC managed to eliminate themselves from the proceedings, I believe

[DFW HOYA]

Ask your friends in Worcester what they think of us as an academic school, their answer drives the attitude that kept/keeps us out of the PL.

Some of them proabably feel that way about a lot of schools, not just NU. And the way a few HC fans talk, they probably wouldn't have gone for Georgetown in the PL, either.

[Franks Tanks]

Some of them proabably feel that way about a lot of schools, not just NU. And the way a few HC fans talk, they probably wouldn't have gone for Georgetown in the PL, either.


HC Fans are the most dilusional in the PL. When you go to their board all they do is lament about how they would've been in the Big East and FBS in football and all that crap. They would be 1/2 the size as the smallest school in a BCS conference (Wake Forest) dont tell me that would've woked. Also Bob Cousy played at Holy Cross what 60 years ago? It was a vastly different time and its not the PL that caused the ruin of your athletic program. All of the smaller eastern schools (Ivy, Patriot league especially) are much less relevant then in the past in athletics. Its just they way it is as the population shifts and large state universities sink obscene amounts of $ into athletics.

[carney2]

All of this talk about Holy Cross barring the door to Hofstra, Northeastern and even Georgetown leads me to ask, What is the process?

Must it be unanimous?

Is there a formal application process?

Must a school be "invited," or can they initiate things on their own?

Where does last year's statement (or was it a rumor) that "the Patriot League is looking for all sports members only" stand?

Do associates (Georgetown and Fordham) get any vote at all?

Do Army, Navy and American get a vote if it's an associate for football only?

So many questions. So little gray matter.

[Go...gate]

All of this talk about Holy Cross barring the door to Hofstra, Northeastern and even Georgetown leads me to ask, What is the process?

Must it be unanimous?

Is there a formal application process?

Must a school be "invited," or can they initiate things on their own?

Where does last year's statement (or was it a rumor) that "the Patriot League is looking for all sports members only" stand?

Do associates (Georgetown and Fordham) get any vote at all?

Do Army, Navy and American get a vote if it's an associate for football only?

So many questions. So little gray matter.

This one I have some comfort speaking to. When the PL was formed, it was very much based upon the organizational principles of the Council of Ivy Group Presidents (Ivy League). Tony Maruca of Princeton, who was PU President Bowen's point man on Ivy League affairs, worked very closely with Peter Likens, Lehigh's President at the time, and John Brooks, S.J., HC's Prexy at the time (among others), to organize things (indeed, the interlocking schedule arrangement was Maruca's idea and endorsed by the Ivy leadership). Bottom line is the PL is very much a conference RUN by the Presidents, just like the Ivy, and they move at a glacial pace seeking consensus, just like the Ivy. This is why FB Scholarships may not happen for a while; the present Presidents are split on the issue. See also the many posts of Colgate 13 on this issue dating back to 2005.

It certainly appears, IMO, that there is also a lack on consensus on who the candidates are for expansion. The only reason American came on board was that "Bro" Adams of Bucknell single- handledly recruited them and persuaded the PL leadership to go along after Fordham left for all sports (except FB) and Holy Cross threatened to leave due to the BB scholarship policy.

[CrusaderBob]

HC Fans are the most dilusional in the PL. When you go to their board all they do is lament about how they would've been in the Big East and FBS in football and all that crap. They would be 1/2 the size as the smallest school in a BCS conference (Wake Forest) dont tell me that would've woked. Also Bob Cousy played at Holy Cross what 60 years ago? It was a vastly different time and its not the PL that caused the ruin of your athletic program. All of the smaller eastern schools (Ivy, Patriot league especially) are much less relevant then in the past in athletics. Its just they way it is as the population shifts and large state universities sink obscene amounts of $ into athletics.

Oh man. I gotta chime in. Where to begin.

1. Not all of us on the HC board feel that way. To be sure there are some who do, but most think the PL is the right place for us and just want it improved.

2. Holy Cross did not keep scholarships for 8 or 10 years after everybody else did. The PL started play in the Fall of 1986. If the league "formed" one year earlier, that means our last scholarship player should have graduated with the class of '89 - i.e., the class that entered in the Fall of 1985. Our last scholarship class graduated in '92. That's 3 extra years, not 8 - 10. And unless I'm wrong, most did not have scholarships in football to begin with, so giving them up was not the issue it was at HC.

3. Regarding ECAC Hockey - The Valley Raider is right. HC had a plan to go D-I in women's hockey and were willing to accelerate that a bit for the ECAC - 3 years instead of 5 I think - ECAC wanted it immediately. HC was willing to address rink issues with the DCU center - which was about to lose it's AHL team - until such time as the Hart Center hockey rink could be upgraded - mostly from a capacity issues from the ECAC's perspective. Seemed like pretty reasonable compromises to me. The ECAC chose the Q and their new arena. They couldn't have wanted us that badly.

4. Football scholarships. It takes four votes in favor of football scholarships in order to get them in the PL. Last time I checked, Holy Cross only gets one vote. Somewhere, in the other 6 members, there are 3 that are unwilling to vote for them.

5. New members. Again it takes at least 2 of the full time members to block expansion. Holy Cross isn't keeping anyone out by themselves.

6. Northeastern - As an HC guy who lives in the area, no Northeastern doesn't have the academics of most of the other PL schools, but it's not so different from American, academically. But, they have twice the undergrad enrollment of the next biggest school in the PL and a 5 year curriculum that includes co-op time in jobs. I loathe the US News rankings as they are generally used, but they provide a reference point for this so I will use it, not so much for the absolute ranking but to provide perspective. Until the past couple of years, when they've come in at 96, Northeastern was a Tier 3 National University according to US News.

It was not a fit on many levels. It's better now as far as academic ranking - about the same place as American when they joined - but that does not address size disparity or the curriculm differences.

7. Expansion in general - as Carney said, the pool of candidates for PL, particularly in football, is very shallow. Throw out D-III upgrades due to the NCAA moratorium. throw out big national universities with 10,000+ undergrad enrollments and you are left with?

National Liberal Arts Colleges:
Wofford, Davidson, Furman, Richmond,
No football - Siena

Masters Universities - Top 15 in their region
The Citadel, Elon, , Marist, Villanova.
(No Football) Loyola - MD, Fairfield, Providence, St.Josephs, Quinnipiac

National Universities (top 100 fewer than 10,000 undergrads that are not Ivies)
William & Mary
Georgetown, Fordham

The pickins are slim!

[aceinthehole]

7. Expansion in general - as Carney said, the pool of candidates for PL, particularly in football, is very shallow. Throw out D-III upgrades due to the NCAA moratorium. throw out big national universities with 10,000+ undergrad enrollments and you are left with?

National Liberal Arts Colleges:
Wofford, Davidson, Furman, Richmond,
No football - Siena

Masters Universities - Top 15 in their region
The Citadel, Elon, , Marist, Villanova.
(No Football) Loyola - MD, Fairfield, Providence, St.Josephs, Quinnipiac

National Universities (top 100 fewer than 10,000 undergrads that are not Ivies)
William & Mary
Georgetown, Fordham

The pickins are slim!

Exactly! Sounds familiar:)

http://www.anygivensaturday.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1087858#post1087858

[bison137]

All of this talk about Holy Cross barring the door to Hofstra, Northeastern and even Georgetown leads me to ask, What is the process?

Must it be unanimous?

Is there a formal application process?

Must a school be "invited," or can they initiate things on their own?

Where does last year's statement (or was it a rumor) that "the Patriot League is looking for all sports members only" stand?

Do associates (Georgetown and Fordham) get any vote at all?

Do Army, Navy and American get a vote if it's an associate for football only?

So many questions. So little gray matter.



I'm not sure how the process really works behind closed doors but this is what the bylaws say:

- "New regular and associate members may be admitted into the League upon proper application in accordance with criteria established by the Council of Presidents and by a unanimous vote of all regular member institutions."

- AU, Army, and Navy are "regular members" and hence would have a vote, although I'm not sure they ever would veto a football-only member.

- "A condition of membership and application for membership shall be a Five-Year Declaration of Membership/Letter of Commitment Form signed by the institution’s chief executive officer which states that the institution makes an initial five-year commitment to membership in the League. ubsequent to the initial five-year commitment, members will be committed to the League for a period of three years renewable on an annual basis."

- "Associate members shall designate appropriate representatives as required by the League Code to attend and participate in the discussions of the Council of Presidents, Policy Committee and Committee of Directors of Athletics. Such representatives, however, will participate in an ex-officio capacity without entitlement to vote, except with respect to those matters which concern the sport(s) for which the institution was granted the status of associate membership. The determination of which matters an associate member may vote upon shall be solely determined by the Chair of each body."

- "So many questions. So little gray matter!" . . . . . I'm sure KenZ would agree, although he might suggest that "little" is an overstatement. xlolx Anyway, there does appear to be a "Carney clause" in the PL rules, i.e. a clause put in solely to explain the obvious . . . "Any amendments to the Operating Bylaws require a majority vote of all members. According to Robert’s Rules of Order, a majority of eight (8) members will require five (5) affirmative votes."

[Go...gate]

I respectfully offer this response on three of your points, CrusaderBob...


Oh man. I gotta chime in. Where to begin.

1. Not all of us on the HC board feel that way. To be sure there are some who do, but most think the PL is the right place for us and just want it improved.

2. Holy Cross did not keep scholarships for 8 or 10 years after everybody else did. The PL started play in the Fall of 1986. If the league "formed" one year earlier, that means our last scholarship player should have graduated with the class of '89 - i.e., the class that entered in the Fall of 1985. Our last scholarship class graduated in '92. That's 3 extra years, not 8 - 10. And unless I'm wrong, most did not have scholarships in football to begin with, so giving them up was not the issue it was at HC.

The PL "formed" in September 1983. The three-year delay in play to 1986 was, in part, for HC (and, at the time, William & Mary) to have its last scholarship class in 1987. William & Mary dropped out later in 1983 and HC took extra time. That is why I used 8-10 years as a timeframe. I should have used 7-8.

3. Regarding ECAC Hockey - The Valley Raider is right. HC had a plan to go D-I in women's hockey and were willing to accelerate that a bit for the ECAC - 3 years instead of 5 I think - ECAC wanted it immediately. HC was willing to address rink issues with the DCU center - which was about to lose it's AHL team - until such time as the Hart Center hockey rink could be upgraded - mostly from a capacity issues from the ECAC's perspective. Seemed like pretty reasonable compromises to me. The ECAC chose the Q and their new arena. They couldn't have wanted us
that badly.

We can agree to disagree on this. My sources (from Princeton and Colgate, and I do consider them reliable) advised that the ECAC really wanted HC and bent over backwards to have them enter the league because of their academic profile. HC dragged its feet through the process and ultimately advised they did not intend to make changes to their facilities or the ramp-up of their women's program.

4. Football scholarships. It takes four votes in favor of football scholarships in order to get them in the PL. Last time I checked, Holy Cross only gets one vote. Somewhere, in the other 6 members, there are 3 that are unwilling to vote for them.

This may be true, but since HC more than once threatened to leave the conference on the issue of basketball scholarships, it is not unreasonable to think they are taking a similar position (our way or out) on the position of FB scholarships. HC knows if they leave, the league is essentially finished. That gives HC a lot more sway than they might have in a league with more schools.

5. New members. Again it takes at least 2 of the full time members to block expansion. Holy Cross isn't keeping anyone out by themselves.

6. Northeastern - As an HC guy who lives in the area, no Northeastern doesn't have the academics of most of the other PL schools, but it's not so different from American, academically. But, they have twice the undergrad enrollment of the next biggest school in the PL and a 5 year curriculum that includes co-op time in jobs. I loathe the US News rankings as they are generally used, but they provide a reference point for this so I will use it, not so much for the absolute ranking but to provide perspective. Until the past couple of years, when they've come in at 96, Northeastern was a Tier 3 National University according to US News.

It was not a fit on many levels. It's better now as far as academic ranking - about the same place as American when they joined - but that does not address size disparity or the curriculum differences.

7. Expansion in general - as Carney said, the pool of candidates for PL, particularly in football, is very shallow. Throw out D-III upgrades due to the NCAA moratorium. throw out big national universities with 10,000+ undergrad enrollments and you are left with?

National Liberal Arts Colleges:
Wofford, Davidson, Furman, Richmond,
No football - Siena

Masters Universities - Top 15 in their region
The Citadel, Elon, Marist, Villanova.
(No Football) Loyola - MD, Fairfield, Providence, St.Josephs, Quinnipiac

National Universities (top 100 fewer than 10,000 undergrads that are not Ivies)
William & Mary
Georgetown, Fordham

The pickins are slim!

[bostonspider]

In my mind if scholarships could be agreed upon, (which would likely be the death of GU football) a great league would be made up of:

Lehigh
Lafayette
Colgate
Bucknell
Holy Cross
Fordham
Villanova
Richmond
William & Mary

All academic powerhouses, with nice campuses, and good facilities. If Georgetown would be up for scholarships, then swap them out for W&M. 9 teams to me is the perfect size, 8 league games (4 home & 4 away) and then 3 OOC games which leaves room for some nice non-conference rivalries

[Go...gate]

In my mind if scholarships could be agreed upon, (which would likely be the death of GU football) a great league would be made up of:

Lehigh
Lafayette
Colgate
Bucknell
Holy Cross
Fordham
Villanova
Richmond
William & Mary

All academic powerhouses, with nice campuses, and good facilities.

Bingo. Would GT end up in the PFL?

[CrusaderBob]

I'm not sure how the process really works behind closed doors but this is what the bylaws say:

- "New regular and associate members may be admitted into the League upon proper application in accordance with criteria established by the Council of Presidents and by a unanimous vote of all regular member institutions."

I stand corrected on HC’s – or any other one school’s - ability to block addition of new members. Thought the membership voting required a 2/3 majority like all constitutional by-law changes.

Perhaps we know at least part of the reason the league has not expanded.




The PL "formed" in September 1983. The three-year delay in play to 1986 was, in part, for HC (and, at the time, William & Mary) to have its last scholarship class in 1987. William & Mary dropped out later in 1983 and HC took extra time. That is why I used 8-10 years as a timeframe. I should have used 7-8.

If the Class of 1987 was originally to be the last class with scholarships vs. Class of 1992 that’s a 5 year delay against the original plan.



We can agree to disagree on this. My sources (from Princeton and Colgate, and I do consider them reliable) advised that the ECAC really wanted HC and bent over backwards to have them enter the league because of their academic profile. HC dragged its feet through the process and ultimately advised they did not intend to make changes to their facilities or the ramp-up of their women's program.

Not sure we’re saying anything terribly different here. Holy Cross didn’t do enough to get the ECAC invite. Period. But word is HC is going D-I in women’s hockey next year. Did that meet the ECAC’s time table? Nope. My understanding is HC was willing to accelerate that but not enough for the ECAC members. But, yes we’ll have to disagree on the degree of desire on the part of the ECAC.



This may be true, but since HC more than once threatened to leave the conference on the issue of basketball scholarships, it is not unreasonable to think they are taking a similar position (our way or out) on the position of FB scholarships. HC knows if they leave, the league is essentially finished. That gives HC a lot more sway than they might have in a league with more schools.


Two things.

1. True on basketball in 1998, but why is the league finished if HC leaves now? You still have 6 FB members and lose nothing. And according to most, with HC gone scholarships should fly, you’ll be able to replace HC much easier. Also, in other sports, with scholarships now the PL would be more attractive to new full members.

2. Why is the league not going to fall apart if Colagte – or Lehigh, or Lafayette or someone else - leaves, but will fall apart if HC leaves? If HC has that much leverage, I don’t blame them for exercising it. But that’s not true. If the league falls apart if HC leaves, it falls apart if anybody leaves. So if Colgate wants scholarships that badly, why doesn’t Colgate threaten to leave if football scholarships are not allowed?

[DFW HOYA]

In my mind if scholarships could be agreed upon, (which would likely be the death of GU football)...

Some explanation for your argument, please.

Georgetown is does not hold a deep philosophic opposition to scholarships, as they are offered in many of its 29 sports. It belongs to a league which does not offer them as a matter of philosophy, so they compete under the rules of the league.

Maybe you should ask this to one of the core PL schools which keeps voting against scholarships.

[WildPard]

As you can tell by my user name, I have ties to Lafayette and Davidson. I'm a new poster to the board, but have been reading it for a few weeks. Sorry if this has been already discussd and answered. Why not Davidson? Did they ever reject an offer to join? They used to be a regular opponent of Lafayette, George town and Bucknell.

[bison137]

As you can tell by my user name, I have ties to Lafayette and Davidson. I'm a new poster to the board, but have been reading it for a few weeks. Sorry if this has been already discussd and answered. Why not Davidson? Did they ever reject an offer to join? They used to be a regular opponent of Lafayette, George town and Bucknell.



Davidson was an original member of the league in football but dropped out early in the game due to it being non-competitive in football.

[ngineer]

In my mind if scholarships could be agreed upon, (which would likely be the death of GU football) a great league would be made up of:

Lehigh
Lafayette
Colgate
Bucknell
Holy Cross
Fordham
Villanova
Richmond
William & Mary

All academic powerhouses, with nice campuses, and good facilities. If Georgetown would be up for scholarships, then swap them out for W&M. 9 teams to me is the perfect size, 8 league games (4 home & 4 away) and then 3 OOC games which leaves room for some nice non-conference rivalries

That would be a very nice conference. In fact I was at the Villanova game today with a former Villanova QB from the 1960s and we were discussing the same thing.

[Husky Alum]

As a long-time (read: OLD) Colgate fan and grad, I have great respect for Holy Cross and regard our historical relationship with them as special; we are both about the same size and, while academics have always been the most important thing, athletics were also taken very seriously. However, in the past 15-20 years or so, their administration has really left a lot to be desired on both counts. This sounds like the same sh-t they pulled on the ECAC Hockey League, which really wanted them, but they were not willing to "commit" to revovations to their rink, among other things (we ended up with Quinnipiac as a result, which is not really a match with the other schools - I believe the difference will show itself in the next few years, since QU can recruit damn near anybody, including the Border Collie mentioned in another post). They dropped their requirement for SAT submission by all applicants, which, IMO, will lower their academic profile in the long term. They bitched and moaned repeatedly over having to drop scholarships for FB (they had them for 8-10 years after everybody else did and had to be forced to end the practice cold turkey, rather than a wind-down). They held up the PL and threatened to leave twice over BB scholarships and ultimately strong-armed the rest of us in this policy change. They were one of the schools (along with Colgate xrolleyesx) which did not want to admit Hofstra to the PL in '93-'94. And they stood in the doorway for Northeastern too? Geez...xsmhx

BTW, I think you are being a little hard on your alma mater Northeastern, which is another school which has focused on raising its profile in the post WWII period. They spent their money on professors, bricks and mortar, which is why they still use Parsons Field. Sounds like they have their priorities in order!

Colgate did the same thing for many years. Andy Kerr was a pretty spartan ballpark in the 1960's, '70's and '80's because Colgate raised and spent tens of millions on the quality of its education. IMO, they made the right choice. Indeed, Lafayette did a similar thing.

I'm from the New Haven area, interesting comments on QPac - in my mind, they never had admissions standards to begin with, so lowering them is simply ridiculous.

I was shocked that Yale let QPac in - that's like the bluebloods letting in the red headed stepchild to the family picnic. Ironically, if we got in the PL, we had a handshake deal with ECAC hockey to replace Vermont (or so the rumor goes).

Thanks for your compliments about NU - we've done wonders for our academics and facilities and professorships, but as someone who interviews and hires HC students, I'm sick of their attitudes and the letters they give you from their deans that say "we grade on a curve, a 3.2 at Holy Cross is like a 3.6-3.8 anywhere else".

Get us an invite to the PL, we'll probably accept.

[TheValleyRaider]

I was shocked that Yale let QPac in - that's like the bluebloods letting in the red headed stepchild to the family picnic. Ironically, if we got in the PL, we had a handshake deal with ECAC hockey to replace Vermont (or so the rumor goes).

That's interesting xeekx

Never heard that one floating around, or Northeastern's name. I would have guessed Northeastern wouldn't want to leave Hockey East

[Husky Alum]

That's interesting xeekx

Never heard that one floating around, or Northeastern's name. I would have guessed Northeastern wouldn't want to leave Hockey East

Like I said, it was our "thank you" to Colgate. Apparently Colgate was a big supporter of NU for the PL, and we would have helped the ECAC by bringing hockey with us. I don't think Harvard was against it either.

Although we have 15,000 undergrads, as the HC alum noted, we are a 5 year school with co-op, so the number is about 20% higher than if we were a 4 year schoo..

Our hockey funding levels are more in line with the ECAC than HEA. Maine, UNH, UVM, BU and BC al spend significantly more on hockey than we do.

A "good" year for NU in HEA would be to finish 4th and get home ice in the playoffs. We don't even think of coming in first or second, it's just not feasible.

The PL and ECAC make much more sense from a competitive point of view.

[TheValleyRaider]

Our hockey funding levels are more in line with the ECAC than HEA. Maine, UNH, UVM, BU and BC al spend significantly more on hockey than we do.

A "good" year for NU in HEA would be to finish 4th and get home ice in the playoffs. We don't even think of coming in first or second, it's just not feasible.

The PL and ECAC make much more sense from a competitive point of view.

I guess I'd just be surprised that someone would willingly downgrade to the ECAC (short of the "kick Merrimack out of Hockey East route), or we could have just made the trade UVM for NU, straight up

[Husky Alum]

I guess I'd just be surprised that someone would willingly downgrade to the ECAC (short of the "kick Merrimack out of Hockey East route), or we could have just made the trade UVM for NU, straight up

I'd argue that playing in the HEA is a case of the "haves" and the "have nots". NU is stuck in the middle (probably along with Providence) - a school that doesn't have the ability to enter into the spending frenzy for hockey that BU, BC, Maine, UNH and Vermont do.

NU saw it as a chance to compete in a league that it had a chance to be competitive in, and still maintain our ties to the Beanpot schools.

The thought was if we went to the PL and ECAC at the same time the "we're trying to rationalize our athletic and academic interests" line could be used.

Who knows, we're in the CAA and the HEA and our funding in both conferences is simply embarrassing.

[colorless raider]

That would be a very nice conference. In fact I was at the Villanova game today with a former Villanova QB from the 1960s and we were discussing the same thing.

Excellent!! Get after Alice and Joe.:)

[Go...gate]

I stand corrected on HC’s – or any other one school’s - ability to block addition of new members. Thought the membership voting required a 2/3 majority like all constitutional by-law changes.

Perhaps we know at least part of the reason the league has not expanded.



If the Class of 1987 was originally to be the last class with scholarships vs. Class of 1992 that’s a 5 year delay against the original plan.


Not sure we’re saying anything terribly different here. Holy Cross didn’t do enough to get the ECAC invite. Period. But word is HC is going D-I in women’s hockey next year. Did that meet the ECAC’s time table? Nope. My understanding is HC was willing to accelerate that but not enough for the ECAC members. But, yes we’ll have to disagree on the degree of desire on the part of the ECAC.

Two things.

1. True on basketball in 1998, but why is the league finished if HC leaves now? You still have 6 FB members and lose nothing. And according to most, with HC gone scholarships should fly, you’ll be able to replace HC much easier. Also, in other sports, with scholarships now the PL would be more attractive to new full members.

2. Why is the league not going to fall apart if Colagte – or Lehigh, or Lafayette or someone else - leaves, but will fall apart if HC leaves? If HC has that much leverage, I don’t blame them for exercising it. But that’s not true. If the league falls apart if HC leaves, it falls apart if anybody leaves. So if Colgate wants scholarships that badly, why doesn’t Colgate threaten to leave if football scholarships are not allowed?


CrusaderBob, HC is the only one of the schools which you named which ever threatened to bolt the league (twice). If you have wanted to leave twice already, why not a third time over an unwillingness to grant FB scholarships?

And further as to HC's dragging its feet on the ending of FB scholarships, we probably better agree to disagree as well. It is a lot more than a five-year period when you consider the original agreement between the founding schools. The point of the agreement in '83 was that an immediate wind-down was to start for FB scholarships. In most instances if you are on notice to do something by a certain date and you don't do it, you are in trouble. AIR, HC got to the 1986 season and had done nothing on the issue; it took three additional years for the PL presidents to force HC to comply on this issue. And it did cause problems for the PL. Davidson refused to play HC in 1987 and 1988 due to the scholarship issue.

[CrusaderBob]

Go..gate,

Well, let's forget about the formation of the league and how we count years.

I have no doubt that HC threaten to leave before and were I another member of the league, there is no reason to believe they wouldn't threaten to leave again if an issue of signifcant improtance to HC came up again.

But, please answer the question you bolded above, based on the situation TODAY. If HC leaves, why does the PL, in your words, fall apart? If Colgate, or someone else, leaves, why does it not?

[Go...gate]

Go..gate,

Well, let's forget about the formation of the league and how we count years.

I have no doubt that HC threaten to leave before and were I another member of the league, there is no reason to believe they wouldn't threaten to leave again if an issue of signifcant improtance to HC came up again.

But, please answer the question you bolded above, based on the situation TODAY. If HC leaves, why does the PL, in your words, fall apart? If Colgate, or someone else, leaves, why does it not?

Agreed. Please understand that I'm not trying to start trouble here; you are a fine poster and your information is always reliable, as I believe mine is - that's why I said we should agree to disagree. Hell, let's face it - every PL and ECACHL school's administration has its take on these type of situations. The answer may very well be somewhere between what we are discussing.

Why would HC's departure kill the Patriot League? Because there really aren't other schools out there like Colgate, HC, Lafayette. etc. who could just join up and keep things going. I believe it would begin an unraveling or domino effect caused by the paucity of "replacement" schools (which you pointed out in your posts), the expedient relationship USMA and USNA have with the conference, and the regrettbly limited ties Fordham and Georgetown have to the league as Associate Members. For football, we would be down to six schools and for BB, seven.

How many successful intercollegiate athletic conferences are that size now? Not very many. By the time you get to our size, you are either growing larger or dying. How well I remember the old East Coast Conference, which was a pretty good league but was effectively killed by two or three defections to the NEC, MAAC and Patriot League. The Southwest Conference died for the same reason.

I'm sure the urgency expressed by the PL leadership and discussed in another thread (and on more than one occasion by LFN on his blog) is based in part on this "number of members" issue. If the league is to survive long-term, IMO, we must have, and add to, the five sustaining all-sports members (which HC now is and hopefully will remain as).

What has sometimes troubled me with regard to HC is, in all honesty, where would they go? The A-10/CAA? Great for basketball but a disaster for football without scholarships. The MAAC for BB and maybe the PFL for football? Not much improvement for BB and, at least to some extent, a geographic nightmare for football, which might end with HC having a one-time National Championship football program reduced to moribund status - all in the name of so-called "non-scholarship" football (which has always been somewhat of a myth anyway).

I guess, in the end, what I am saying is that the PL is clearly getting near critical mass. The leadership of its membership has to stop putting band-aids on problems, such as AI adjustments, and sit down in an open-minded way to handle the problems of scholarships and membership such that a solution can be reached that all schools can buy into for the next 20 years or more.