Sunday's Word: Canary

[Lehigh Football Nation]

A must-read (I hope) for Patriot League fans. Maybe FCS fans, but definitely Patriot League fans.

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2008/08/sundays-word-canary.html

[TheValleyRaider]

No doubt the Stony Brook game is worth pausing over, for I still believe Colgate will be a big factor in the Patriot League race when all is said and done (though we'll see how long that lasts....)

It's been mentioned on other threads, and you touched on it, but it's worth repeating: scholarships make a difference. Colgate and the rest of the Patriot League are really beginning to struggle with teams we normally would have considered pushovers, though I think most reasonable and/or knowledgeable fans would have told you that Stony Brook was no pushover. Not by a longshot. For only being Division I less than a decade, the Seawolves have built themselves into a very solid program, and their stable of running backs would give plenty of Patriot League defenses fits

Excuses are just that, and you are what your record says you are, but with time to reflect, I've taken some positives, especially regarding the offense. The defense right now is an area of concern. Our play on the line was not strong, and the loss of Pat Nolan seems to have really hurt. Youth in the LB corps weakened a traditionally strong Colgate unit as well. Gaining experience will be a big boost, and hopefully this playing time will make the team stronger by the time we get into League play

Generally I trust Biddle to have a strong defense put together, and it's been one of the true hallmarks of his Colgate tenure. While I have this faith, it certainly remains to be seen whether or not it is rewarded this season, but for now, I choose to believe xtwocentsx

[Tribe4SF]

In answering the question of whether the PL clinging to its financiaql aid structure has caused it to lose touch with the rest of FCS, I think the accurate response is yes. The canary died in the coal mine a couple of years ago when NEC teams started upsetting PL squads, and the Ivy matchups became a one sided affair.

[Franks Tanks]

In answering the question of whether the PL clinging to its financiaql aid structure has caused it to lose touch with the rest of FCS, I think the accurate response is yes. The canary died in the coal mine a couple of years ago when NEC teams started upsetting PL squads, and the Ivy matchups became a one sided affair.

Ivy matchups are NOT a one sided affair. We have been just abut .500 as a league vs. the Ivies for some time.

[Tribe4SF]

Ivy matchups are NOT a one sided affair. We have been just abut .500 as a league vs. the Ivies for some time.

A little short of .500. PL is 20-33 against the Ivies over the last three years. I was really thinking of 2006, when the PL was 4-14 against them. Lafayette and Lehigh were a combined 0-7 against Ivy teams that year.

[OL FU]

A good article for FCS and PL. A dose of reality for some FCS fans. and on the scholarship issue you guys know more than me but from the outsider looking in it certainly appears as if the PL is not the conference it was only 5 years ago.

I hope the Gate game was an anomaly but I fear not. I was one of the people picking the PL to be strong this year.

[TheValleyRaider]

A little short of .500. PL is 20-33 against the Ivies over the last three years. I was really thinking of 2006, when the PL was 4-14 against them. Lafayette and Lehigh were a combined 0-7 against Ivy teams that year.

Which means we were 16-19 against them in 2005 and 2007, hardly a blowout, and we were .500 against the Ivies last season alone

Who's to say 2006 wasn't the aberration? 1 of the last 3 years isn't exactly indicative of a trend

Or at the very least, if there are changes to be coming in the series, you won't start seeing them until now or next year when the results of free Ivy educations start to (presumably) bear athletic fruits

[Seawolf97]

A must-read (I hope) for Patriot League fans. Maybe FCS fans, but definitely Patriot League fans.

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2008/08/sundays-word-canary.html

Always a good read. Honestly I expected a low scoring defensive game Saturday. I thought our strength was in our special teams and our kicking game with Luke Gaddis probably one of the best kickers in FCS this year.
The surprise was that the Colgate defense probably has practiced all summer against their own power running game which is strong. So it is hard to explain what happened Saturday but I do expect Colgate to bounce right back.
As for scholarships they do make a difference and it doesnt take much. Recruit a few key players and you can turn around any program and I point to Chris Richards on defense and Eddie Gowins. The rest is building depth to replace talent with talent when needed.
Good luck to Colgate and the rest of the PL Teams as the season moves forward!

[TheValleyRaider]

Always a good read. Honestly I expected a low scoring defensive game Saturday. I thought our strength was in our special teams and our kicking game with Luke Gaddis probably one of the best kickers in FCS this year.

Now there's a name we haven't talked about much from Saturday

Strong punts, strong kickoffs, we were pinned deep for most of the game, and especially in the first half. Very good kicker you've got there xnodx

[Seawolf97]

Now there's a name we haven't talked about much from Saturday

Strong punts, strong kickoffs, we were pinned deep for most of the game, and especially in the first half. Very good kicker you've got there xnodx

Thanks ! Cool Hand Luke is another local product from Long Island. Went to high school about 15 miles from SBU. We are counting on him big time this season to keep us out of trouble.xnodx

[DFW HOYA]

Week two's non-conference matchups will go a long way to determine how this topic develops this season.

63-scholarship conference opponents:
Georgetown at Howard
Massachusetts at Holy Cross
Rhode Island at Fordham
Colgate at Coastal Carolina

~30-scholarship conference opponents:
Duquesne at Bucknell

Non-scholarship conference opponents:
Drake at Lehigh
Lafayette at Marist

[LehighFan11]

Great article. To give my opinion on your question: Have we, in clinging to the old financial aid formulas, lost competitiveness with the rest of FCS? I sure hope not. I say yes. Like may others have said above, PL teams have been losing to Ivies and the NEC more than ever. Also, when was our last win in the playoffs? Does it go all the way back to Colgate's run?

Now, if someone else could help me with this because during the glory days of Lehigh football and during Colgate's run I was very young. Are the big conferences like the CAA offering more scholarships now than say in 2000? Obviously they offer more scholarships, but wasn't this the case when Lehigh won playoff games and when Colgate went to the NC game?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Week two's non-conference matchups will go a long way to determine how this topic develops this season.

63-scholarship opponents:
Georgetown at Howard
Massachusetts at Holy Cross
Rhode Island at Fordham
Colgate at Coastal Carolina

~30-scholarship opponents:
Duquesne at Bucknell

Non-scholarship opponents:
Drake at Lehigh
Lafayette at Marist

Are we sure those three are carrying the full load of schollies? I'm almost certain that Howard isn't (might be 40-50?), I'm pretty sure URI isn't (45-55?), and I'm not sure at all where CCU is.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Are we sure those three are carrying the full load of schollies? I'm almost certain that Howard isn't (might be 40-50?), I'm pretty sure URI isn't (45-55?), and I'm not sure at all where CCU is.

IIRC, a poster during the off-season or last season said that URI was giving all 63 or darn close to it.

[Seawolf97]

I think Coastal is at 63 also.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Not trying to smack, this is some honest, serious analysis.

Unless schedules changed since earlier this summer, this is the Patriot OOC with full or high number scholarship schools bolded:

Holy Cross -- UMass, Harvard, Yale, Brown, Dartmouth
Lafayette -- Marist, Penn, Harvard, Columbia, Liberty
Lehigh -- Drake, Villanova, Princeton, Cornell, Harvard
Bucknell -- Duquesne, Robert Morris, Cornell, Marist, Hofstra
Colgate -- Stony Brook, Coastal Carolina, Furman, Dartmouth, Cornell
Fordham -- Rhode Island, Dayton, Columbia, Yale, Marist, Princeton
Georgetown -- Howard, Yale, Penn, Richmond, Marist

In the Ivy League, here are the only OOC games not against Patriot League teams:

Brown-Stony Brook
Brown-Rhode Island
Dartmouth-UNH
Columbia-Towson
Penn-Villanova
Princeton-The Citadel

IMO:


Patriot League games are not viewed as high quality as league games within the CAA, SoCon, Gateway now MVC, Big Sky and SLC; therefore, they need their OOC schedule to help build their resume come playoff at-large selection time.
Eight Ivy teams with only six OOC games to demonstrate to the FCS world how they stack up against teams outside the Patriot League. Those six games are not enough to sway the FCS community that the Ivy provides high caliber opposition.
With at least five OOC games this year, every Patriot team but maybe two is relying on the Ivy League to demonstrate how they stack up. Only Colgate has really scheduled a "national" schedule. All these Ivy games are not going to build an at large resume come playoff selection time.
If the Ivy teams played an 11th game and each team then played a team from a "power" conference, then all the Patriot OOC games against the Ivy might be a better gauge.
I'm beginning to wonder if the Patriot is content having their auto-bid and happy to play within the "non scholly" world with maybe one excursion into the scholly world? With five OOC games available and so many CAA teams a bus ride away, why wouldn't you schedule more of them to build an at large resume? Why wouldn't you schedule more MEAC (DE State, Howard, Morgan, Hampton, Norfolk State aren't that far) or SoCon privates (Elon, Wofford, Furman) games?
With the way things appeared pre-season, I thought only Colgate had the opportunity to be in the playoff mix at 8-3 and a 2nd place Patriot finish.


I really do truly hate to see this happening because the Ivy and Patriot have such a storied past with so many quality teams over the years. I just don't understand this apparent move away from playing the highest level of FCS Football possible and apparently being content with a team getting an auto-bid with a one and done in the playoffs. I hope it is not really happening, but with Stony Brook at 63 schollies soon if not already there, the NEC ramping up, the Ivy having advantages over the high academic achieving recruits, etc., it looks like the Patriot has a rocky road ahead.

Compare the "stretch" games:

Colgate plays Furman who plays Virginia Tech, Coastal Carolina who played Penn State.
Lehigh plays Villanova who played West Virginia.
Lafayette plays Liberty who plays Youngstown State.
Bucknell plays Hofstra who played UConn.
Holy Cross plays UMass who plays Texas Tech.
Fordham plays URI who plays Boston College.
Georgetown plays Richmond who plays Virginia.

[ngineer]

Which means we were 16-19 against them in 2005 and 2007, hardly a blowout, and we were .500 against the Ivies last season alone

Who's to say 2006 wasn't the aberration? 1 of the last 3 years isn't exactly indicative of a trend
Or at the very least, if there are changes to be coming in the series, you won't start seeing them until now or next year when the results of free Ivy educations start to (presumably) bear athletic fruits

Especially when you look at the three Lehigh losses that year to Princeton (10-14), Harvard (33-35), and Yale (20-26). All were razor thin losses. Had they been blowouts, then such an argument could be made. But they weren't.

[ngineer]

Not trying to smack, this is some honest, serious analysis.

Unless schedules changed since earlier this summer, this is the Patriot OOC with full or high number scholarship schools bolded:

Holy Cross -- UMass, Harvard, Yale, Brown, Dartmouth
Lafayette -- Marist, Penn, Harvard, Columbia, Liberty
Lehigh -- Drake, Villanova, Princeton, Cornell, Harvard
Bucknell -- Duquesne, Robert Morris, Cornell, Marist, Hofstra
Colgate -- Stony Brook, Coastal Carolina, Furman, Dartmouth, Cornell
Fordham -- Rhode Island, Dayton, Columbia, Yale, Marist, Princeton
Georgetown -- Howard, Yale, Penn, Richmond, Marist

In the Ivy League, here are the only OOC games not against Patriot League teams:

Brown-Stony Brook
Brown-Rhode Island
Dartmouth-UNH
Columbia-Towson
Penn-Villanova
Princeton-The Citadel

IMO:


Patriot League games are not viewed as high quality as league games within the CAA, SoCon, Gateway now MVC, Big Sky and SLC; therefore, they need their OOC schedule to help build their resume come playoff at-large selection time.
Eight Ivy teams with only six OOC games to demonstrate to the FCS world how they stack up against teams outside the Patriot League. Those six games are not enough to sway the FCS community that the Ivy provides high caliber opposition.
With at least five OOC games this year, every Patriot team but maybe two is relying on the Ivy League to demonstrate how they stack up. Only Colgate has really scheduled a "national" schedule. All these Ivy games are not going to build an at large resume come playoff selection time.
If the Ivy teams played an 11th game and each team then played a team from a "power" conference, then all the Patriot OOC games against the Ivy might be a better gauge.
I'm beginning to wonder if the Patriot is content having their auto-bid and happy to play within the "non scholly" world with maybe one excursion into the scholly world? With five OOC games available and so many CAA teams a bus ride away, why wouldn't you schedule more of them to build an at large resume? Why wouldn't you schedule more MEAC (DE State, Howard, Morgan, Hampton, Norfolk State aren't that far) or SoCon privates (Elon, Wofford, Furman) games?
With the way things appeared pre-season, I thought only Colgate had the opportunity to be in the playoff mix at 8-3 and a 2nd place Patriot finish.


I really do truly hate to see this happening because the Ivy and Patriot have such a storied past with so many quality teams over the years. I just don't understand this apparent move away from playing the highest level of FCS Football possible and apparently being content with a team getting an auto-bid with a one and done in the playoffs. I hope it is not really happening, but with Stony Brook at 63 schollies soon if not already there, the NEC ramping up, the Ivy having advantages over the high academic achieving recruits, etc., it looks like the Patriot has a rocky road ahead.

Compare the "stretch" games:

Colgate plays Furman who plays Virginia Tech, Coastal Carolina who played Penn State.
Lehigh plays Villanova who played West Virginia.
Lafayette plays Liberty who plays Youngstown State.
Bucknell plays Hofstra who played UConn.
Holy Cross plays UMass who plays Texas Tech.
Fordham plays URI who plays Boston College.
Georgetown plays Richmond who plays Virginia.

First, scheduling a lot of CAA, SoCon or other conference schools is not easy given that some demand the games be in their stadiums (Delaware for one), or would rather schedule their OOC's with FBS schools for big pay days. Secondly, there is a working relationship with the Ivy League based upon the original intent of the Patriot League, therefore the number of Ivy games in the OOC schedule. This is due to the League's philosophical basis. Plus, Ivy teams, especially the top 4-5, are not slouches. Due to their national reputation, they are able to recruit some very excellent athletes. Unfortunately, their refusal to enter the playoffs leaves many with the perception that they are 'inferior'.
Finally, the PL has not 'moved away' from playing the highest FCS possible. I don't see our schedules being any real different than they were 8-10 years ago. However, I would say that the PL has just 'stood still' and not adequately reacted to the changing ways of the world, so that some other FCS programs have moved beyond (i.e. Stony Brook, Albany, etc.)

[LUHawker]

[QUOTE=
Compare the "stretch" games:

Colgate plays Furman who plays Virginia Tech, Coastal Carolina who played Penn State.
Lehigh plays Villanova who played West Virginia.
Lafayette plays Liberty who plays Youngstown State.
Bucknell plays Hofstra who played UConn.
Holy Cross plays UMass who plays Texas Tech.
Fordham plays URI who plays Boston College.
Georgetown plays Richmond who plays Virginia.[/QUOTE]

Your comment about stretch games is a bit misguided. Patriot League teams do not meet the minimum scholarship levels that would allow games against Bowl teams to count towards bowl eligibility, none of the Bowl eligible teams want to schedule PL (or Ivies, for that matter). Army backed out of a 3-game deal with Yale once those min scholly levels were put in place. Amazingly, I think Colgate still has Air Force on their schedule in 2011 or 12, but we'll see if that comes to pass if the PL doesn't change its stance.

I don't disagree that the PL could benefit from bigger stretch games, but at this point, its nary impossible to get such a game.

[TheValleyRaider]

If anything, I'd say we've moved more towards national scheduling in recent years

Colgate's OOC schedule this year is the most "national" it's been in a long while (certainly since I started watching in 2003)

I also know that we schedule the Ivy games for more than just the working relationship. We generally feel connected to those schools. Colgate hasn't been called the "9th Ivy" by accident. Cornell, Dartmouth, Princeton are all long-time opponents and we love playing one another

We just finished a 4-year series with UMass, and are in home-and-homes with Stony Brook, Coastal, Furman, and Towson. Monmouth is coming back next year or 2010. Having 6 conference games certainly makes OOC scheduling a bit easier, but there are of course so many dates to go around. I believe in addition to the Air Force game (2013, if I'm not mistaken) we've also got a deal with Northeastern on tap in the future. We even had a game at Buffalo (who we smashed in 2003), but they backed-out for a larger payday elsewhere

Still, it's going to take more for the League as a whole to improve than simply better schedules. Those FBS stretch games are exceedingly difficult for us to come by (as seen with Yale-Army and our experience with UB), so we're left trying to fill our OOC with teams not getting large paydays elsewhere. As demonstrated on this forum every spring and summer, scheduling is hard xpeacex

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

First, scheduling a lot of CAA, SoCon or other conference schools is not easy given that some demand the games be in their stadiums (Delaware for one), or would rather schedule their OOC's with FBS schools for big pay days. Secondly, there is a working relationship with the Ivy League based upon the original intent of the Patriot League, therefore the number of Ivy games in the OOC schedule. This is due to the League's philosophical basis. Plus, Ivy teams, especially the top 4-5, are not slouches. Due to their national reputation, they are able to recruit some very excellent athletes. Unfortunately, their refusal to enter the playoffs leaves many with the perception that they are 'inferior'.

Finally, the PL has not 'moved away' from playing the highest FCS possible. I don't see our schedules being any real different than they were 8-10 years ago. However, I would say that the PL has just 'stood still' and not adequately reacted to the changing ways of the world, so that some other FCS programs have moved beyond (i.e. Stony Brook, Albany, etc.)

Other than Delaware and possibly JMU, I don't think any other CAA team could demand only home games. App might make the same demand but the only other SoCon who has the attendance to make that demand, GA Southern, has always played home and home series. There are quite a few schools available in both leagues as possible schedule mates.

Yes, all the CAA and SoCon schools want to play an FBS pay day game, but there are still two more OOC games available. Some schools are pretty set, ex. Villanova -- FBS, Penn, Lehigh and W&M -- FBS, two VA schools but many others aren't. A few years ago if any Patriot AD talked to the UNH AD and offered a series where the home game was in Durham the year we play at Dartmouth, then I think we'd see that series on the UNH schedule today. I have to think that we'd have opted for a Patriot team over Iona and the pre-full scholly Stony Brook.

And all the rumors around the Granite State are that Dartmouth won't be signing another agreement with UNH. So, UNH would then be looking for OOC opponents. Opportunity exists but don't snooze because I'm sure fellow AE members Albany and Stony Brook will be negotiating for those games. If this year a Patriot team offered a home and home series with the first game in Durham (Dartmouth in Hanover this year) the first week of this season (12 game schedule without the bye mid-season wasn't wan't), then maybe that series would be on the books. Got to believe there are similar scenarios with at least half a dozen CAA schools, we're not all in Delaware's situation. Even Delaware is someday going to drop West Chester. ;)

I understand why the Patriot and Ivy have their arrangement and it makes sense. I'm not saying that the Patriot should totally abandon those relationships. I also understand that the Patriot has more OOC games than most conferences so you have to rely on the Ivy to fill a couple of those games. And believe me I understand the Ivy Football legacy. I'm old enough to recall when UNH could never beat Dartmouth. But with the Ivy playing so few games outside the Patriot for OOC games added to their refusal to participate in the playoffs, the perception that they are "inferior" just seems to be growing annually. And with the high number of Patriot OOC games against the Ivy, there is a significant perception consequence for the Patriot teams.

I think my point is that for the Patriot to be viewed as still playing at the highest level of FBS that scheduling needs to change, you can't continue the same type of scheduling as the past 8-10 years. JMHO, but the Ivy OOC schedules, only playing 10 games and refusal to join the playoffs as well as the NEC upgrading their programs is causing a paradigm shift in the Northeast. I just think more Patriot programs need to follow Colgate's scheduling philosophy.

I'm a firm believer in schools playing in leagues and against OOC opponents with like minded schools. If the Patriot League wants to play a virtually all Ivy and Pioneer schedule for OOC, then that's their prerogative and I'll respect them for that. But IMO it comes with a price, gaining at large bids will become very difficult. Look at the comments today from so many AGS posters down south and out west, they view opening round playoff games vs. the Patriot as virtual byes. I'm not agreeing with that, but without a more balanced OOC schedule that perception of the Patriot will just grow.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Your comment about stretch games is a bit misguided. Patriot League teams do not meet the minimum scholarship levels that would allow games against Bowl teams to count towards bowl eligibility, none of the Bowl eligible teams want to schedule PL (or Ivies, for that matter). Army backed out of a 3-game deal with Yale once those min scholly levels were put in place. Amazingly, I think Colgate still has Air Force on their schedule in 2011 or 12, but we'll see if that comes to pass if the PL doesn't change its stance.

I don't disagree that the PL could benefit from bigger stretch games, but at this point, its nary impossible to get such a game.

Not really as it was meant to demonstrate the strength of schedule aspect of teams in the playoff committee's view come selection time. I understand the PL teams can't schedule those FBS games. To me, that means if they want to present a strong SOS to the committee, then they need to schedule as strong an OOC schedule as possible. Or talk the Ivy into scheduling 11 games and boosting their OOC schedules so the Patriot gets a better bump from their games with the Ivy.

I just think that today's reality is that the league games in the CAA, SoCon, MVC, Big Sky and SLC are viewed as more difficult than games within the Patriot (MEAC and OVC). Then those big five leagues schedule a FBS $$$$ game which enhance their SOS which the PL can't also schedule. And they win a few and stay competitive in many. To me the only way the Patriot has to alter the perception their league games aren't less stringent is to play a higher quality OOC schedule and win some of them and be competitive in many of them. Winning some more playoffs game of course will give you a significant bump too. As the Ivy continues its isolationist philosophy and the NEC grows, the impact from the 2003 run by Colgate loses significance in the current realm.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The main problem as I see it is that the Patriot League, as it has always done, "hitches its star" to the Ivy League in terms of OOC games. In the early days, this was of great benefit to the Patriot League as it gave us an identity and gave us plenty of OOC games.

The trouble with this is that as the Ivy League's prominence has faded nationally, the Patriot League's prominence has faded right along with it. With the "rise" of I-AA and FCS football over the years - James Madison, Delaware, Appalachian State, Northern Iowa - the self-imposed sequestering of the Ivy League has meant that nationally nobody really cares about Ivy football. It's really telling that Armanti Edwards threw away his recruiting letter from Harvard and instead chose Appalachian State. It's also telling that Harvard and Yale went undefeated in league play for the Ivy League title, making "The Game" for the outright title - and the rest of America pretty much yawned.

Now, the Ivy League has so much money they don't really care. They can afford to keep football around to give wealthy old alums a reason to head back to campus a few times a year.

But the Patriot League doesn't realize how the tarnishing of the Ivy League brand has been killing the Patriot League football's image. Harvard, Yale and the best of the Ivy League are some of the best teams in the nation - by far - yet a win against them doesn't buy a Patriot League much nationally, while a loss is devastating. Patriot League folks can only implore so much that "Harvard is a great team" when Harvard and the league itself does such a pathetic job promoting their own sport. LSU's starting QB this year transferred from Harvard. Ivy League schools routinely get blue-chip talent in their ranks.

Playing CAA, SoCon and MVFC teams would instantly give the league more credit nationally. It's no secret that the Patriot League started to get more notice when Lehigh went to Richmond, Delaware, and Western Illinois and beat those teams, and also beat Wofford and Hofstra at home (not to mention Fordham's and Colgate's exploits).

I think schedules should be made in this fashion: if we make the playoffs, are we going to have to sell the playoff committee on a win over an Ivy League school? If the answer to that is "yes", I think that school should think about dropping a Harvard and adding a Hampton or Hofstra.

[colorless raider]

A good article for FCS and PL. A dose of reality for some FCS fans. and on the scholarship issue you guys know more than me but from the outsider looking in it certainly appears as if the PL is not the conference it was only 5 years ago.

I hope the Gate game was an anomaly but I fear not. I was one of the people picking the PL to be strong this year.

It is a problem for Colgate and I think a problem for the PL. Changes must be made or it's "game over".:(

[colorless raider]

Which means we were 16-19 against them in 2005 and 2007, hardly a blowout, and we were .500 against the Ivies last season alone

Who's to say 2006 wasn't the aberration? 1 of the last 3 years isn't exactly indicative of a trend

Or at the very least, if there are changes to be coming in the series, you won't start seeing them until now or next year when the results of free Ivy educations start to (presumably) bear athletic fruits

Gate is 26-20 since the championship year. Clearly a falloff.

[letsgopards04]

I think that the article highlights what we all really know - App St's upset of Michigan should not be considered the norm. It was the right place at the right time. App St faced a team lacking the high-end speed of a LSU. Mike Hart was in and out of that game and App St still only won with a blocked FG.

How far will Patriot League fall in competitiveness before our pride gets the best of us? Although I like that we don't have football schollies we can't be perenial Top 10 teams without them. We simply lack the national name recognition that the Ivies have to allow them to go on without them.

[TheValleyRaider]

Gate is 26-20 since the championship year. Clearly a falloff.

Not that much

That 26-20 number is skewed by 2006. Take the 4-7 record away, and it's 22-14 over 3 years. That year was at least 3 games worse than any in the Biddle years

Of course, I was talking about the League as a whole vs. the Ivies

The problem isn't a dropoff in Patriot League ability. We're standing still, treading water, and everyone else is getting better around us

[DFW HOYA]

I understand why the Patriot and Ivy have their arrangement and it makes sense. I'm not saying that the Patriot should totally abandon those relationships.

More and more, that "arrangement" is becoming a four team one. Fordham gets Columbia and not much more than that; Georgetown has a 2 and 4 with Yale but no other Ivies after 2008. Bucknell has fallen off some Ivy schedules as well.


The problem isn't a dropoff in Patriot League ability. We're standing still, treading water, and everyone else is getting better around us

I'm not so sure. Take your PL team in 2007 versus the one in 2003. More than a few were probably better teams in 2003 than in 2007.

[TheValleyRaider]

I'm not so sure. Take your PL team in 2007 versus the one in 2003. More than a few were probably better teams in 2003 than in 2007.

You mean within the PL?

Lehigh should have been a playoff team in 2003, and they were weak last year

Lafayette was much improved in 2007 from where they were in 2003

Fordham was arguably better last year, but could very well be equal

Holy Cross is so far improved from 2003

I was referring to Leagues around the PL. We're collectively treading water while Leagues like the Big South and NEC get better (to say nothing of the CAA) xpeacex

[DetroitFlyer]

Frankly, it is kind of funny to listen to the PL fans bemoan the fact that they are not full 63 athletic scholarship programs. If you believed this board, the ONLY way to ever compete in FCS would be to offer 63 full athletic scholarships.... The NEC and Big South are mentioned as "improving". Well, so far the NEC is 0-2 against the mighty PFL in the Gridiron Classic. How is that possible? The NEC has been "improving" by adding athletic scholarships while the PFL has remained firmly committed to the non-scholarship model.... Must be a fluke....

It is also interesting to note that the PFL has become much more competitive over the years in FCS without any athletic scholarships. Compare the league in 1993 to today, and it is obvious that even without the almighty athletic scholarship improvement has been realized.... Interesting.... Heck, PFL players are now getting serious looks by the NFL and some have actually played in the league recently.... Must be yet another fluke....

I'm not sure athletic scholarships are the answer.... Perhaps more merit and need based aid are the key. PFL programs can offer nice academic, (merit), scholarships in addition to need based aid. If a local Ohio kid has a chance to play at Dayton or Lehigh, and he is a top notch student, odds are that Dayton can offer an attractive aid package to keep that kid at home. For Lehigh, maybe the aid package falls short if the kids folks make a decent living, (good bet if they are UD alums,;) ).... Dayton landed a kid a couple of years ago that was recruited by Yale. He was a 4.0 in high school with good ACT scores. Dayton was competitive with Yale's aid package and the kid wanted to play in front of friends and family. We landed a kid in the most recent class that was recruited by The Citadel. Once again, the kid was a top student. The combination of aid and location kept the kid "home" at UD. Of course Dayton's rising national reputation is helping as well. I spoke with the parents of a player this past weekend. The player is studying mechanical engineering. He was offered a full academic ride to attend Carnegie Mellon in order to play football and study engineering. The, (as described by the parents), nice scholarship that Dayton offered combined with the rising reputation of UD, caused the kid to pick Dayton. (He is also a local kid).

What I am saying is that PFL schools can recruit and land kids that PL schools cannot, primarily due to the "need based" aid policy. If the PL would expand their aid to include true, merit based academic aid, maybe things would be different. It seems to me that the PL could remain true to its academic mission, recruit better athletes, and still maintain the "non-athletic" scholarship model.... Wait, I am talking about the Ivy League model.... I have heard that the PL was modeled after the Ivy League.... If implemented, this might actually hurt the PFL schools.... As I have said before, get creative. Use those high buck PL degrees to figure out a way to maintian your mission and be competitive besides signing up to be just another "State U".

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I'm not so sure. Take your PL team in 2007 versus the one in 2003. More than a few were probably better teams in 2003 than in 2007.

Let's analyze this a little bit. 2003 vs. 2007. Let's look at OOC games:

2003:
Bucknell, 6-6 record, 2-3 OOC. OOC wins: Duquesne, Delaware State. OOC losses: Cornell, Columbia, Penn.

Colgate, 15-1 record, 8-1 OOC. OOC wins: Buffalo (FBS), Dartmouth, Cornell, Princeton, Yale, UMass, Western Illinois, Florida Atlantic. OOC losses: Delaware.

Fordham, 9-3 record, 5-0 OOC. OOC wins: C.W. Post (D-II), New Haven (D-II), Columbia, Rhode Island, Brown.

Georgetown, 4-8 record, 3-2 OOC. OOC wins: Stony Brook, Cornell, Davidson. OOC losses: Monmouth, VMI.

Holy Cross: 1-11 record, 0-5 OOC. OOC wins: none. OOC losses: Harvard, San Diego, Yale, Dartmouth, Florida International

Lafayette: 5-6 record, 3-1 OOC. OOC wins: Marist, Princeton, Columbia. OOC losses: Harvard.

Lehigh: 8-3 record, 2-2 OOC. OOC wins: Princeton, St. Mary's (CA). OOC losses: UConn (FBS), Penn.

Towson: 6-6 record, 3-2 OOC. OOC wins: Lock Haven (D-II), Elon, Albany. OOC losses: Morgan State, Yale.

2007:
Bucknell, 3-8 record, 2-3 OOC. OOC wins: Duquesne, Marist: OOC losses: Stony Brook, Cornell, Richmond.

Colgate, 7-4 record, 3-2 OOC. OOC wins: Albany, Dartmouth, Towson. OOC losses: UMass, Cornell.

Fordham, 8-4 record, 3-3 OOC. OOC wins: Rhode Island, Columbia, Marist. OOC losses: Dayton, Albany, UMass.

Georgetown: 1-10 record, 0-5 OOC. OOC wins: none. OOC losses: Stony Brook, Cornell, Yale, Penn, Marist.

Holy Cross: 7-4 record, 3-2 OOC. OOC wins: Harvard, Brown, Dartmouth. OOC losses: UMass, Yale.

Lafayette: 7-4 record, 3-2 OOC. OOC wins: Marist, Penn, Columbia. OOC losses: Princeton, Harvard.

Lehigh: 5-6 record, 3-2 OOC. OOC wins: Princeton, VMI, Harvard. OOC losses: Villanova, Yale.

2003: overall OOC record: 27-16 (24-16 vs. D-I competition).

Wins over playoff conferences: 5 (1 MEAC, 1 Gateway/MVFC, 3 CAA) (not including FAU which was independent en route to I-A)

Record vs. Ivy: 9-9

Record vs. FBS: 1-1 (win over Buffalo, loss to UConn)

2007: overall OOC record: 17-17.

Wins over playoff conferences: 2 (both CAA).

Record vs. Ivy: 8-9

Record vs. FBS: no FBS games

A caveat is that this record was somewhat skewed by Colgate's run at the championship. But even if you remove those playoff games you get a 21-15 OOC record vs. D-I competition.

Other than that? The rest of the data lines up so similarly it's downright eerie. Ivy record is the basically the same, wins vs. playoff conferences (minus playoff games) is the same: actually, both years there was a win over Rhode Island, and the other year there was a win over a bad team in a Maryland FCS school: Morgan State in 2003, Towson in 2007.

The conclusion is obvious. We're about even with the Ivy League: but we miss out on the FBS bonanza, and we're falling behind the other playoff conferences.