Washington Post on I-AA (FCS)

[ChickenMan]

As college football's season nears and the first anniversary of Appalachian State's mind-set-shifting victory at Michigan arrives with it, the rest of division I-AA shares a similar sentiment. At no point, several coaches said, has I-AA football ever enjoyed a higher profile than it does at the moment, owing mainly to two events that bookended last year's season. It opened with Appalachian State appearing on the cover of Sports Illustrated. And it closed with Delaware's Joe Flacco becoming the second quarterback selected in the NFL draft.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/25/AR2008082503099.html

[bostonspider]

great article on "I-AA" as the Post still calls it. I like the final line of the article talking about what is happening in the FCS vs FBS world and how FCS is gaining on FBS, "One year later, more than ever, people will sit and talk in places such as Boone and Richmond, waiting to see what happens next."

[elcid96]

Great Article. There is much better atmosphere in FCS football. We need the full amount of schlorships to really compete and take away more recruits from the lower FBS conferences.

[danefan]

Great Article. There is much better atmosphere in FCS football. We need the full amount of schlorships to really compete and take away more recruits from the lower FBS conferences.


True, but I would never want to see that. I like being the "underdog." To me FCS football is a more pure form of football. It's why I like it so much as a fan. FBS is the NFL. Plain and simple. Kids are treated like professional athletes and that is a shame, IMO.

I wouldn't change a thing about FCS football (except expansion which is already changed).

[Ivytalk]

Very well done. It also shows the cowardice of FBS coaches who cherry-pick their "token" FCS opponents to try for a guaranteed win. Like that FCS coach said, "just play people" and see what happens.xcoolx

[McNeese75]

Very well done. It also shows the cowardice of FBS coaches who cherry-pick their "token" FCS opponents to try for a guaranteed win. Like that FCS coach said, "just play people" and see what happens.xcoolx

I agree although I guess there is somewhat of a flinch factor when you are trying to perpetuate a multi-million dollar contract :D

[IaaScribe]

One quibble -- Central Florida was I-A when Culpeper was a senior.

[Uncle Buck]

Listening to the afternoon show on ESPN Radio (Sirius) yesterday and i can't recall the two guys. One of them called FCS "little boy" football and the other guy jumped all over him rattling off successful 1AA players. I was glad to see he knew about them and took a stance saying how good 1AA football is while the other guy played off the App St. upset as a fluke.

[appfan2008]

very interesting...

i was listening to herbstriet (sp?) on the radio this morning blasting fcs and the fact that fbs has to play those teams... :(

[Uncle Buck]

Herbstreit is a moron. A lot of props going to Flacco as well from the guy giving FCS some love. He doesn't think they will risk Flacco behind a suspect o-line and will throw Troy Smith in to take a beating. They said look for Flacco to get some work later in the season though since he is their best option at QB.

[LBPop]

Very well done. It also shows the cowardice of FBS coaches who cherry-pick their "token" FCS opponents to try for a guaranteed win. Like that FCS coach said, "just play people" and see what happens.xcoolx

Well all know (sadly) that it's about $$$. The "mid-majors" in basketball have the same problem. They rarely get the big guys to schedule them and if they do, it is always on the big guy's court. These football teams do not want to risk a demoralizing defeat to a lower level team. It can cost them bowl money and booster money.

Despite the "cherry picking" these games do give the FCS teams a chance to show well and occasionally score an upset. As a Maryland fan, if Flacco was still at Delaware I might be more than a little concerned. Teams like Maryland that are consistently inconsistent are ripe for the picking if they have a bad day against a motivated and talented FCS team. xtwocentsx

[Bearvision]

Listening to the afternoon show on ESPN Radio (Sirius) yesterday and i can't recall the two guys. One of them called FCS "little boy" football and the other guy jumped all over him rattling off successful 1AA players. I was glad to see he knew about them and took a stance saying how good 1AA football is while the other guy played off the App St. upset as a fluke.


But, in reality, it was a fluke. They could play 100 times in Ann Arbor, and App St. wins once. It just so happened it was that one time last season. great for them, and great for football in general, but it was the definition of a fluke.

I'm a huge fan of a FCS team, but it just isn't the same level of football between the two divisions at all. It is very much an exception to see athletes the level of a FBC BCS team on an FCS team. Kudos to App St. for winning that game though. Shocking, amazing, and thrilling all rolled into one.

[danefan]

But, in reality, it was a fluke. They could play 100 times in Ann Arbor, and App St. wins once. It just so happened it was that one time last season. great for them, and great for football in general, but it was the definition of a fluke.

I'm a huge fan of a FCS team, but it just isn't the same level of football between the two divisions at all. It is very much an exception to see athletes the level of a FBC BCS team on an FCS team. Kudos to App St. for winning that game though. Shocking, amazing, and thrilling all rolled into one.

See that's just false. There are MANY guys on FCS teams that are at the same level talent-wise as FBS players out there. The difference between FBS and FCS teams is nothing more than depth. While FCS teams may have 20 guys at that level, an FBS team will have 50. I was at both levels so my opinion is based on personal experience.

[Go Bison]

But, in reality, it was a fluke. They could play 100 times in Ann Arbor, and App St. wins once. It just so happened it was that one time last season. great for them, and great for football in general, but it was the definition of a fluke.

I'm a huge fan of a FCS team, but it just isn't the same level of football between the two divisions at all. It is very much an exception to see athletes the level of a FBC BCS team on an FCS team. Kudos to App St. for winning that game though. Shocking, amazing, and thrilling all rolled into one.

I disagree. FCS football is very good football. It is not like these FBS teams are playing at a neutral site or on the road when they lose to a FCS team. They are playing at home and losing. I would love to see some of these FBS schools play an away game against a FCS opponent.

What is sad is how ESPN and others look down at FCS teams and how much lack of respect they show FCS.

[EWashEagle]

Exactly Dane, the major differences between the two divisions is the depth, because of schollys, and the size/speed of the linemen. All else is very close, and there are plenty of FCS kids that make it into the NFL, which is the ultimate standard.

[Uncle Buck]

I think you have all made my point. App State beat Michigan because they were a better team that day. True they may not win for the next 100, but you could say that about a lot of teams from the FBS against Michigan. FCS football has athletes, just not the depth and that is why many of the games are lost in the second half.

[Bearvision]

See that's just false. There are MANY guys on FCS teams that are at the same level talent-wise as FBS players out there. The difference between FBS and FCS teams is nothing more than depth. While FCS teams may have 20 guys at that level, an FBS team will have 50. I was at both levels so my opinion is based on personal experience.

The claws don't need to come out my friend. I said it is rare, and if you look at the NFL rosters that is born out. While you may believe this, and may have even been at both levels, there are a zillion examples of FBS players tranferring to FCS schools and being their best player, or one of the best immediately.

Most every FCS team will have one or two guys who could not only play FBS football, but start and play very well. Problem is, the BCS FBS teams are stocked full of those players, and the perfect storm came together for Michigan last year.

Perfect defense for their offense, perfect game being first game of the year, perfect dinosaur coach, perfect events in the game, and a blocked kick was still needed to win. You'll never convince me the level of play is similar in the BCS conferences.

I do believe the MVC et al are better conferences than the Sun Belt etc. at the lower levels, but we should just be happy to see more "pure" football at the FCS level, and not think that the teams are similar talent wise.

It's much more than depth.

[Bull Fan]

As this debate rages, think of how much less of a fluke it can be considered as App State punctuated the season as champs for the third season in a row. It wasn't like Northeastern or Grambling went in and beat Michigan; it was the best team in I-AA going in and beating one of the better teams in I-A.

Fluke, yes. But a paradigm that yes, a good I-AA team can compete with a BCS-cartel team.

To me, football is football. I get as excited for a Stony Brook - Colgate game as I would in taking a trip to see Penn State play one of their conference foes. I even get off in being able to head down to my high school and catching a game if there's nothing local going on at the college level. It's about watching a team being able execute on a gameplan that's been put together and practiced, and watching kids execute the fundamentals. Funny, sometimes you don't see that in the NFL and in I-A (quality tackling for example).

I'm going to slightly disagree with the concept that the major difference is the amount of depth between I-A and I-AA teams. For the most part, from top-to-bottom the kids are bigger, faster and stronger in I-A. I will agree there are a good number of I-AA programs with a sprinkling of the size and speed. However, quite often it's a result of transfers rather than blue-chippers deciding to play in front of 20,000 fans because it's closer to home.

BTW, I caught a podcast yesterday that disected the background of the Clemson / Alabama game- a neutral site game where both schools will get 40K tickets. Apparently this concept will start to take off in the future. Not because you get just a good matchup, but because of the money. Both high-profile teams get to avoid the home-and-home arrangement, and both will immediately benefit from a financial perspective. Something (thankfully) not really possible for intra-I-AA matchups. You hate to see games taken off-campus.

[MSU_77]

I'm going to slightly disagree with the concept that the major difference is the amount of depth between I-A and I-AA teams. For the most part, from top-to-bottom the kids are bigger, faster and stronger in I-A. I will agree there are a good number of I-AA programs with a sprinkling of the size and speed. However, quite often it's a result of transfers rather than blue-chippers deciding to play in front of 20,000 fans because it's closer to home.

For the most part this is true, but there are some FCS programs such as McNeese that rarely accept transfers but regularly send players to the NFL. This is usually because of good scouting that enables these schools to find HS players with talent and speed who haven't yet "bulked up" to FBS standards but develop over time. A good example was Bryan Smith, McNeese's All-American DE who was overlooked by FBS schools out of a small high school and ended up being selected in the 3rd round by the Eagles this year.

[putter]

Funny, I thought you only had to be the best team that day. App St was the best team that day and deserved to win - Michigan gave them nothing. As far as Herbstreit he can take those cupcakes he gave Corso before the App game last year and shove them all the way up to his bleach blond hair. He is an idiot who can't give credit to anyone other than the BCS schools. Heck, even Mark May gave a little credit to App last year.

[Bearvision]

I disagree. FCS football is very good football. It is not like these FBS teams are playing at a neutral site or on the road when they lose to a FCS team. They are playing at home and losing. I would love to see some of these FBS schools play an away game against a FCS opponent.

What is sad is how ESPN and others look down at FCS teams and how much lack of respect they show FCS.

They would still win 90% of the games.

I liken it to a good JV team. I'm sure they could beat several lesser Varsity teams, but they are still a JV team, and not on the same level as the upper Varsity teams.

That is not something to take offense to, and I'm certainly not saying there aren't very talented players and teams, but the reason ESPN treats the FCS teams as lower division teams, is because they are.

Finally, the coverage of FCS football, and teams, has risen exponentially over the years, inscluding at ESPN.

[Bearvision]

Funny, I thought you only had to be the best team that day. App St was the best team that day and deserved to win - Michigan gave them nothing. As far as Herbstreit he can take those cupcakes he gave Corso before the App game last year and shove them all the way up to his bleach blond hair. He is an idiot who can't give credit to anyone other than the BCS schools. Heck, even Mark May gave a little credit to App last year.

I never said they weren't the best that day...no one needs to say they were or weren't, the scoreboard tells all stories.

My comments touched off a nerve, and frankly I'm a little surprised how highly some on here think of the level of 1AA football.

McNeese St. was used as an example, there are slightly more players in the NFL who play and contribute than are drafted out of some of the top programs in a single year. That doesn't mean the games are less fun, or the players don't try as hard, or that they aren't talented enough to play at bigger schools, it simply means the talent is higher at another level.

Is that really something to get offended by? Let's not have illusions of grandeur here, 1A football is much higher quality than 1AA.

What I find encouraging, is that tht gap has narrowed substantially in the past few years, and the 1A schools are starting to recognize it through legislation (transfer rules, roster limits etc. etc.)

Enjoy the App St. games for what they are: Monumental upsets that are feel good stories for decades to come. For me, upsets are the best part of the season (other than my own teams accomplishments of course).

[BisonBacker]

I disagree. FCS football is very good football. It is not like these FBS teams are playing at a neutral site or on the road when they lose to a FCS team. They are playing at home and losing. I would love to see some of these FBS schools play an away game against a FCS opponent.

What is sad is how ESPN and others look down at FCS teams and how much lack of respect they show FCS.


Playing devils advocate here you can't have it both ways. If FBS would (they never will) travel to play a FCS team then FCS teams should travel to play DII teams. Yeah you can play me the it's still DI being FCS/FBS but try selling that to the FBS teams. Or try selling that to DII teams and fans such as the ones from the UXD's who just moved up and are clamoring about it not being that big of a jump. Can't have it both ways folks.

[JMU2K_DukeDawg]

First, great article. It is written well, uses accurate info (although older nomenclature) and presents an unbiased representation of the FCS POV via the coaches and ADs of those schools. As a result, it appears the journalist did his homework and reported as is while telling an intriguing story of the college football landscape. Kudos to him! xthumbsupx

Second, I love the quote below:


I disagree. FCS football is very good football. It is not like these FBS teams are playing at a neutral site or on the road when they lose to a FCS team. They are playing at home and losing. I would love to see some of these FBS schools play an away game against a FCS opponent.

What is sad is how ESPN and others look down at FCS teams and how much lack of respect they show FCS.

Never, and I MEAN NEVER, do I hear anyone mention the fact that 100+ "small" schools (e.g., App St. and JMU are both in the 17-20K student range - not too shabby) go to someone else's yard to play every year in week 1 or 2 of the season. Homefield advantage is no greater in any sport than it is in football. I would love to see how Duke would fare at Bridgeforth or how much closer the UNC game vs. McNeese St would be if it were held in Lake Charles.

Obviously those games are about money. And that means this will never really change. However, in terms of ability and respectability it cannot go without saying that FCS schools man up and hit the road in late August early September for - yes, a payday, but also - a tough road game that often many FBS teams would shy away from (e.g., @LSU, @Georgia, @Virginia Tech, @Penn St., @Michigan (HA!), @Arizona St., @Oregon, etc.).

The same can be said of DII schools, and I give them the utmost respect when they play us. Many of them should be considered for playoff consideration wins before some FCS schools. Would you rather play Savanah St., Indiana St., Georgetown and Marist or Chadron, Bloomsburg, Grand Valley and Valdosta State? If they counted toward playoff consideration, you would see our schools scheduling more DII and less FBS, esp. for larger schools (i.e., Montana, Delware) for revenue and a "W."

[JMU2K_DukeDawg]

It's much more than depth.

In this I agree. It's size of the stadium. It's national reputation. It's TV time. It's proximity to fertile recruiting grounds (players' families like to watch their kids). It's NFL pedigree - how often are scouts looking a t players. It's the big time.

However, aside from a few incredible players, I really don't think the gap is so big as it once was. Look at Matt Leinhart. He sucks in Arizona (doesn't everyone). Matt Ryan is looking to take the starting role in Atlanta, but he struggled against UMass last year. Flacco was taken in the first round, as the article mentions. Chris Gocong is a starting LB with the Eagles and Akeem Jordan was/is the Special Teams captain and first reserve LB (started a few games last year). The list goes on and on. The gap has narrowed. Depth is a major reason for the disparity, but certainly not the only reason.

[danefan]

In this I agree. It's size of the stadium. It's national reputation. It's TV time. It's proximity to fertile recruiting grounds (players' families like to watch their kids). It's NFL pedigree - how often are scouts looking a t players. It's the big time.

However, aside from a few incredible players, I really don't think the gap is so big as it once was. Look at Matt Leinhart. He sucks in Arizona (doesn't everyone). Matt Ryan is looking to take the starting role, but he struggled against UMass last year. Flacco was taken in the first round, as the article mentions. Chris Gocong is a starting LB with the Eagles and Akeem Jordan was/is the Special Teams captain and first reserve LB (started a few games last year). The list goes on and on. The gap has narrowed. Depth is a major reason for the disparity, but certainly not the only reason.

Its depth and money. Take away the major FBS money and you've got the MAC.....whose teams, even with depth, are far from a lock to win the CAA or SoCon. xpeacex

[Grizaholic17]

Herbstreit is a moron. A lot of props going to Flacco as well from the guy giving FCS some love. He doesn't think they will risk Flacco behind a suspect o-line and will throw Troy Smith in to take a beating. They said look for Flacco to get some work later in the season though since he is their best option at QB.

I hate to say, but Herbsteit is actually the most respected college football announcer alongside Lee Corso. If FBS teams weren't so scared to play upper level FCS teams, then I believe his ideology would shift.

[Bearvision]

In this I agree. It's size of the stadium. It's national reputation. It's TV time. It's proximity to fertile recruiting grounds (players' families like to watch their kids). It's NFL pedigree - how often are scouts looking a t players. It's the big time.

However, aside from a few incredible players, I really don't think the gap is so big as it once was. Look at Matt Leinhart. He sucks in Arizona (doesn't everyone). Matt Ryan is looking to take the starting role in Atlanta, but he struggled against UMass last year. Flacco was taken in the first round, as the article mentions. Chris Gocong is a starting LB with the Eagles and Akeem Jordan was/is the Special Teams captain and first reserve LB (started a few games last year). The list goes on and on. The gap has narrowed. Depth is a major reason for the disparity, but certainly not the only reason.

I admit the gap has narrowed, but it really stands against your case when you have to list a few guys who are from the lower levels. There are 53 players on each of the 32 NFL teams, I'd be shocked if teams average more than 5 players from a lower level on their team. That's about 90%, which is what I would say the talent gap is between the levels.

To your point about Matt Leinart, do not make the mistake of thinking good college player = good NFL player. Different tools are needed to succeed at that level of play, that may not be needed to succeed at the collegiate level (Ken Dorsey is another example of this).

Do people think I'm saying there is no talent at the 1AA level? I'm not, I'm just saying there's not nearly as much as there is at 1A. Not really a surprise to most I'd think. The talent difference isn't cataclysmic either, but it's that one step, that inch, that five extra lbs. that makes all the difference in the scope of a game. Even if you lowered the 85 scholly limit, the 1A teams would still win the majority of the games.

[Bearvision]

I hate to say, but Herbsteit is actually the most respected college football announcer alongside Lee Corso. If FBS teams weren't so scared to play upper level FCS teams, then I believe his ideology would shift.

IMO, the victory by App St. really tells you the difference in the leagues. It is an All-World story, played round the country over and over. If it was in any way, anything other than a world shocker, it wouldn't get nearly as much attention. The attention given to that upset shows you just how much of a gap there is involved.

Michigan wins that game in normal fashion, and the highlights don't even make Sportscenter.

[srgrizizen]

I have to agree with Bearvision that the talent gap between the two divisions is considerable. If it's true that almost no athletes with FBS offer choose an FCS school, and it probably is, then that also includes the benchriders at FBS schools, who are then not available to the FCS. That means FBS gets not the second tier of talent, but the fourth or fifth. The only way the two divisions could even remotely converge in talent is if there is such a plethora of HS football talent that the FBS can't absorb it all. Sure, some great athletes develop late, and FBS recruiters miss some, but on the whole, ASU over Michigan was indeed a fluke in the sense that similar upsets can be expected maybe only once every 25 years or so, if that. That said, ASU has been great for the FBS, and I wouldn't trade it for all the meaningless bowl games between 6-6 teams.

[Houndawg]

It's not all depth, but depth is huge, and Walter Payton is still the NFL's best football player ever. xnodx Plenty of FCS players among the NFL's best.

[griz8791]

I have to agree with Bearvision that the talent gap between the two divisions is considerable. If it's true that almost no athletes with FBS offer choose an FCS school, and it probably is, then that also includes the benchriders at FBS schools, who are then not available to the FCS. That means FBS gets not the second tier of talent, but the fourth or fifth. The only way the two divisions could even remotely converge in talent is if there is such a plethora of HS football talent that the FBS can't absorb it all. Sure, some great athletes develop late, and FBS recruiters miss some, but on the whole, ASU over Michigan was indeed a fluke in the sense that similar upsets can be expected maybe only once every 25 years or so, if that. That said, ASU has been great for the FBS, and I wouldn't trade it for all the meaningless bowl games between 6-6 teams.

I've often wondered what would happen in these games if there was no platooning. LSU and ASU each choose up their 11 best athletes and send them out to play both ways and special teams for 4 quarters. Maybe you could allow each side a handful (max 5) of substitutions in case anyone passes out.

It wouldn't be the game we're used to seeing but I think it would be riveting.

[Bearvision]

I've often wondered what would happen in these games if there was no platooning. LSU and ASU each choose up their 11 best athletes and send them out to play both ways and special teams for 4 quarters. Maybe you could allow each side a handful (max 5) of substitutions in case anyone passes out.

It wouldn't be the game we're used to seeing but I think it would be riveting.

LSU wins that game by 20...at least.

[Bearvision]

It's not all depth, but depth is huge, and Walter Payton is still the NFL's best football player ever. xnodx Plenty of FCS players among the NFL's best.


Jim Brown, and about 25 other players called, and want to talk to you. Payton was a great player, but he is not close to being the best football player.

If you wanted to use a small school player as best ever, you should have used Jerry Rice.