New horse-collar tackle

[aust42]

This penalty is gonna upset me quite a bit if enforced vigorously. Tackled short of the 1st down! Oh wait there's a Bullsheet 15 yard penalty for tacking the runner incorrectly. 1st down!

"What we're hearing from trainers and physicians is we're getting some back injuries when the ball carrier is immediately snapped to the ground by being jerked quickly." No sit, it's football.

What's next? No tackling below the knees b/c trainers and physicians say their seeing knee and ankle injuries when being tackled below the waist? God forbid if the NCAA ever adopts the NFL's "no touching the QB" rule.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/football/2008-08-20-ncaa-horse-collar_N.htm

[ngineer]

The horsecollar tackle has been shown to result in devasting injuries to the lower leg/ankle when the runner gets bent backward. We have seen that up close with Terrell Owens and Donovan McNabb, which is why the NFL instituted the rule. Yes, football is a collision sport, but there is still the priority of protecting the welfare of the players as much as possible. The answer is tackle with the arms and shoulder around the waist or legs when chasing the runner. If you're not fast enough to tackle that way from behind, too bad. Same reason we have clipping penalties. There are ways to block and tackle that don't unduly expose the player to the devasting-type injury.

[CID1990]

Horse-collar tackling is nothing more than a successful arm-tackle, and anyone who has ever played football was taught by their coaches early on (if their coaches were worth a *****) not to arm-tackle people.

[Chi Panther]

Horse-collar tackling is nothing more than a successful arm-tackle, and anyone who has ever played football was taught by their coaches early on (if their coaches were worth a *****) not to arm-tackle people.

Very True, but the smaller CB running down a break away play is going to get called for penalities....which will be frustrating...but overall its a good rule.

[Lionsrking]

The horse collar rule is long overdue and should have been in place years ago. It's an extremely dangerous tackle and can cause severe injury to the ball carrier. It's not a penalty to simply grab the collar area to slow the runner down and ride him to the ground...if that gets called, it would be a misinterpretation of the rule...it has to be a sudden jerk that immediately stops the forward progress of the runner and pulls him down violently.

[appfan2008]

I am fine with the rule... 15 yards is a little much but it is an extremely dangerous play that is not necessary

[aust42]

Football is a high collission injury prone sport and you can get hurt on any given play. If some of you ever played football before you'd realize sometimes it's impossible to avoid gabbing the collar when a ball carrier is breaking away from you. Making that an illegal tackle is ridiculous. Might as well just play flag football if you want to avoid injuries. That's just SOFT!

[Golden Eagle]

If you're close enough to grab the collar, you can dive at their legs and at the very least break their stride. I was a punter so I did that a lot.

[SoCon48]

Horse-collar tackling is nothing more than a successful arm-tackle, and anyone who has ever played football was taught by their coaches early on (if their coaches were worth a *****) not to arm-tackle people.

Totally agree about being taught not to arm tackle, but what's a hoot is hearting all the fans bitch about arm tackling. What they don't realize is that in college ball, arm tackling is a result mostly of defenders not being able to catch up fully with the runner and arm tackling is all they're able to attempt.

[ericsaid]

Horse-collar tackling is nothing more than a successful arm-tackle, and anyone who has ever played football was taught by their coaches early on (if their coaches were worth a *****) not to arm-tackle people.

Actually I think trying to make arm tackles worse than tackling correctly, dislocate your shoulder if your not careful.xnonono2x

[catbob]

They also got rid of the 5 yard facemask rule. 15 yards or bust.

[Bull Fan]

They also got rid of the 5 yard facemask rule. 15 yards or bust.

That's for the NFL; NCAA also?

[Lionsrking]

Football is a high collission injury prone sport and you can get hurt on any given play. If some of you ever played football before you'd realize sometimes it's impossible to avoid gabbing the collar when a ball carrier is breaking away from you. Making that an illegal tackle is ridiculous. Might as well just play flag football if you want to avoid injuries. That's just SOFT!

That's a crock of B.S.!!!! So using your theory, we should eliminate the face mask penalty, the chop block, the clip, and every other penalty designed to protect the player...it's a helluva lot "more impossible," as you put it, not to grab the face mask or block in the back than it is to grab the collar of the runner, and yank to the ground, which is the rule.

[bluehenbillk]

That's for the NFL; NCAA also?

Yep NCAA too, same with the 40-second play clock versus 25, except the last 2 minutes in each half.

I like the horse collar rule. As an Eagles fan it almost kept T.O. out of the Super Bowl a few years ago.

[aust42]

That's a crock of B.S.!!!! So using your theory, we should eliminate the face mask penalty, the chop block, the clip, and every other penalty designed to protect the player...it's a helluva lot "more impossible," as you put it, not to grab the face mask or block in the back than it is to grab the collar of the runner, and yank to the ground, which is the rule.

No dude, I'm fine with all those rules you mentioned that are enforced to protect the player. You think its "more impossible to not grab the face mask or block in the back"? That's just ridiculous.

[Lionsrking]

You think its "more impossible to not grab the face mask or block in the back"? That's just ridiculous.

Do you even watch football?

[aust42]

Do you even watch football?

I played football from the midget leagues thru college.

[Longhorn]

Football is a high collission injury prone sport and you can get hurt on any given play. If some of you ever played football before you'd realize sometimes it's impossible to avoid gabbing the collar when a ball carrier is breaking away from you. Making that an illegal tackle is ridiculous. Might as well just play flag football if you want to avoid injuries. That's just SOFT!


Agreed, FB is a violent sport. Yet the no horse-collar tackle rule is a wise one, and should prove (when applied as a major penalty) to be no different than the no face-mask rule.

A defender who makes a horse-collar tackle puts their opponent at great risk of being permanently injured. This is a contact sport, but it's not a no-holds-barred, gladitorial death match. Certain types of tackling and blocking can be limited because they maim...and smart defenders will adapt to the new rule.

[Panther88]

Football is a high collission injury prone sport and you can get hurt on any given play. If some of you ever played football before you'd realize sometimes it's impossible to avoid gabbing the collar when a ball carrier is breaking away from you. Making that an illegal tackle is ridiculous. Might as well just play flag football if you want to avoid injuries. That's just SOFT!

I agree aust42 and apparently you liked to hit like I did. There's no GREATER feeling than yanking someone hard from behind when they think they're gone! xbowx

It's a suck-azz rule. Football is a violent sport and collisions of this sort are a part of the game. Why even wear pads/helmet anymore? They're softening the game. :(

[Panther88]

They also got rid of the 5 yard facemask rule. 15 yards or bust.

This is pitiful! 15 yarder for "incidental?" Pitiful.

[aust42]

I agree aust42 and apparently you liked to hit like I did. There's no GREATER feeling than yanking someone hard from behind when they think they're gone! xbowx

It's a suck-azz rule. Football is a violent sport and collisions of this sort are a part of the game. Why even wear pads/helmet anymore? They're softening the game. :(

I can't believe your the only one on this entire thread that agrees with me. Anyone who ever played defense before will attest that this is an a$$nine rule. There is certainly more injuries caused by tacking someone below the waist than pulling someone down from the collar area. Do we need to make a rule to ban tackling below the waist to prevent torn ligaments and sprained ankles? Or adopt the NFL's "no touching the QB in the head or below the waist" rule in order to maximize protecting the QB? F that. A defender can't always be in position to make the perfect form tackle with your knees bent, chest to chest, arms wrapped when there are people blocking you and ball carriers are hawling a$$ by you. This silly rule will penalize a defender for making a routine tackle.

P.S. Their doing away with the 5 yard incidental facemask, not making it 15 yards. I like that rule change.

[elcid96]

Very True, but the smaller CB running down a break away play is going to get called for penalities....which will be frustrating...but overall its a good rule.

If you cannot catch the break away player, then let him go, but there is no need to cause injury to the other player.

[CID1990]

I can't believe your the only one on this entire thread that agrees with me. Anyone who ever played defense before will attest that this is an a$$nine rule. There is certainly more injuries caused by tacking someone below the waist than pulling someone down from the collar area. Do we need to make a rule to ban tackling below the waist to prevent torn ligaments and sprained ankles? Or adopt the NFL's "no touching the QB in the head or below the waist" rule in order to maximize protecting the QB? F that. A defender can't always be in position to make the perfect form tackle with your knees bent, chest to chest, arms wrapped when there are people blocking you and ball carriers are hawling a$$ by you. This silly rule will penalize a defender for making a routine tackle.

P.S. Their doing away with the 5 yard incidental facemask, not making it 15 yards. I like that rule change.

FYI-

This is no different than disallowing shots to the head. They are not allowed, so ADJUST TO IT.

If you are trying to catch a breakaway player, it is just as easy to reach his jersey as it is to reach the collar of his shoulder pads. The difference is that it is easier to keep your grip on the shoulder pads. If the only way to save a touchdown is to horsecollar the guy, then suck it up and take your 15 yard penalty. You still saved the TD.

[Lionsrking]

I played football from the midget leagues thru college.

Didn't ask if you played...I asked if you actually watch the game and observe...if so, you would know that there are considerably more blocks in the back and facemasks than tackles that would qualify as a penalty under the new horse collar rule...not even close.

[Panther88]

Teams will come out pre-game and hold hands singing "kum-bah-yah my lord" soon w/ the current trend. lol

To "soften" the impact of defensive play(ers) is downright putrid IMO. Keeping ones head on a swivel and ensuring one is aware of their presence on the gridiron respective to opposing players during actual play BEFORE the whistle blows is a major part of the game IMO.

[Panther88]

If you cannot catch the break away player, then let him go, but there is no need to cause injury to the other player.

Huh? Let him go? xconfusedx Are you serious? lol One isn't tackling to cause injury (maybe or maybe not). One tackles to prevent offensive (ball) advancement. Whatever happens during that (injury to offensive player) is a part of the game IMO.

Are you're saying defensive players should allow an offensive player to advance (score) w/out intervention? I hope I'm misunderstanding. lol

[ngineer]

I agree aust42 and apparently you liked to hit like I did. There's no GREATER feeling than yanking someone hard from behind when they think they're gone! xbowx

It's a suck-azz rule. Football is a violent sport and collisions of this sort are a part of the game. Why even wear pads/helmet anymore? They're softening the game. :(

The horsecollar had nothing to do with a collision. This is when someone is trying to chase someone down from behind. Lunge and tackle the the guy. I think those who horsecollar are trying to avoid getting kicked by the runners feet. Yes, it might hurt, but its football.;) But there is no need to be yanking on the back collar of one's shoulderpads. It's similar to yanking on the face mask. If your close enough to horsecollar, your close enough to tackle around the waist or legs. BTW, I'm an old DB who had to chase a few runners in his time.xnodx

[Panther88]

The horsecollar had nothing to do with a collision. This is when someone is trying to chase someone down from behind. Lunge and tackle the the guy. I think those who horsecollar are trying to avoid getting kicked by the runners feet. Yes, it might hurt, but its football.;) But there is no need to be yanking on the back collar of one's shoulderpads. It's similar to yanking on the face mask. If your close enough to horsecollar, your close enough to tackle around the waist or legs. BTW, I'm an old DB who had to chase a few runners in his time.xnodx

Understood ngineer. :) In my olden days as an OLB (strongside), when a play went away from me, I'd lead w/ my rt hand and collide lol my left hand around their ankles as I tried to severely bend the runner backwards w/ the rt hand. :)

It's a violent game. :)

[FormerPokeCenter]

I think the intent of the rule change is to keep a defensive player from gaining an unfair advantage (and prevent injury) by using a piece of protective equipment to get a handhold on the offensive player....

It's just like the anti-facemask penalty in my opinion.

If you've got to grab the facemask to make a tackle, or the back of the shoulderpads, then that's a tacit admission that you're not a good enough defensive player to make the tackle legitimately...

It's like offensive linemen who can't use their hands effectively, legally, and have to resort to grabbing the jersey to maintain a block. It's weak and cowardly....

If you're not athletic enough to play the game straight up, try a less taxing sport, like Golf or Lawn Darts.....

[aust42]

I think the intent of the rule change is to keep a defensive player from gaining an unfair advantage (and prevent injury) by using a piece of protective equipment to get a handhold on the offensive player....

It's just like the anti-facemask penalty in my opinion.

If you've got to grab the facemask to make a tackle, or the back of the shoulderpads, then that's a tacit admission that you're not a good enough defensive player to make the tackle legitimately...

If you're not athletic enough to play the game straight up, try a less taxing sport, like Golf or Lawn Darts.....

Your way off base IMO. No defender intends to tackle a runner by the collar or make that a tackling method. But when your diving at a runner in desperation to save a TD or reaching out to stop a runner streaking by you with two blockers on you, every now and then your gonna grab the collar. The injuries that result from the "collar tackle" are miniscule and very rare. To penalize a defender for this is OUTRAGEOUS! (Opinion of an ex MLB)

The facemask analogy has no place in this debate. Your can rip someone's head off tackling them by the facemask. Now that's dangerous. But a runner being pulled down by his collar is no worse than being pulled down by his shoulder pad or belt line from behind.

[JMU2K_DukeDawg]

If you're close enough to grab the collar, you can dive at their legs and at the very least break their stride. I was a punter so I did that a lot.

That's what I was thinking. xthumbsupx

[aust42]

I forgot to beotch about the other rule changes too in the beginning of this thread.

Overall, it looks like the NCAA is adopting many of the same recent NFL rule changes. I absolutely despise the NFL's new rules. I hated the NFL's clock rule changes that I think completely changed the game of football on that level. It shortened the game by a few possessions and added way too many fcking commercials.

Most of the rules the NFL adopted "to protect the runner and QB" are abused by the refs. A defender knocking a fly off the QB's helmut warrants a "roughing the passer" 15 yard penalty. A D-back flying thru the air like a missle making a great tackle gets a 15 yard "spearing penalty". If a defender intiates contact above the shoulder pads it's a "roughing penalty". For God's sakes this is fcking football. When your flying around out there on the football field with people blocking you, runners doink and dinking you, and your responsible for making a tackle, breaking up a pass, etc., sometimes grabbing a runner by the collar, hitting them above the shoulder pad and tackling them with your helmut are unavoidable.

Now the NCAA is following suit with these same rules. If the rules are implemented to "protect players" then the referrees need to use their common sense when enforcing these rules. If it's intentional so be it, throw the flag, if it is not intentional let it go. The NFL has rigorously enforced these rules and and has taken away some of the integrity of the game IMO. I'm afraid of the same thing happening in the NCAA.

[FormerPokeCenter]

Aust42 writes:

<<Your way off base IMO. No defender intends to tackle a runner by the collar or make that a tackling method>>

I think Panther88, who agrees with your take on the rule change, probably disagrees with you on whether or not it's a preferred tackling method:

<<There's no GREATER feeling than yanking someone hard from behind when they think they're gone!>>

That rationale is less about making the tackle than the psychological message being sent when the tackle's made. In my opinion, if you're making good, hard, clean tackles, your psychological message gets sent.

If you're not athletic enough to deliver that message without resorting to horsecollars, facemasks or holding, again, there's always golf, lawn darts or even bocci ball....

It's a good rule change, IMHO.

[jonmac]

I think it's an unnecessary rule change. I agree that there are few injuries that result from the horse collar tackle. The object is to stop the ball carrier. The more rules there are regarding how you can do that, the more advantage the offense has. And I also agree that the horse collar in no way compares to the facemask.

[Lionsrking]

The facemask analogy has no place in this debate. Your can rip someone's head off tackling them by the facemask. Now that's dangerous. But a runner being pulled down by his collar is no worse than being pulled down by his shoulder pad or belt line from behind.

The facemask analogy has every right in this debate. I think you need to sit down and watch video of horse collar tackles that have resulted in major knee, ankle or back injuries. I've seen examples and they're horrendous to watch. Just as grabbing and pulling the facemask can result in serious neck injuries, grabbing and suddenly pulling down on the collar of the shoulder pad can cause serious injury as well.

Football is indeed a violent, contact sport and no one is trying to "sissyfy" it, but it's not a "by any means necessary" sport either.

[Lionsrking]

I think it's an unnecessary rule change. I agree that there are few injuries that result from the horse collar tackle. The object is to stop the ball carrier. The more rules there are regarding how you can do that, the more advantage the offense has.

So if it was up to you, you should be able to pull out a gun and shoot the SOB...afterall, the object is to stop the ballcarrier...right?

[Panther88]

So if it was up to you, you should be able to pull out a gun and shoot the SOB...afterall, the object is to stop the ballcarrier...right?

YEAH!!!!! *handclap* xbowx The ultimate stopper. Good job! xthumbsupx lol

[FormerPokeCenter]

Uh oh......Lionsrking and I are agreeing on something....

Clearly, a sign of the impending Apocalypse....

[Marcus Garvey]

This penalty is gonna upset me quite a bit if enforced vigorously. Tackled short of the 1st down! Oh wait there's a Bullsheet 15 yard penalty for tacking the runner incorrectly. 1st down!

"What we're hearing from trainers and physicians is we're getting some back injuries when the ball carrier is immediately snapped to the ground by being jerked quickly." No sit, it's football.

What's next? No tackling below the knees b/c trainers and physicians say their seeing knee and ankle injuries when being tackled below the waist? God forbid if the NCAA ever adopts the NFL's "no touching the QB" rule.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/football/2008-08-20-ncaa-horse-collar_N.htm


Sweet jesus man. They're trying to reduce needlessly devasting injuries. It's the same reason why you can't pull on a facemask or spear.

[aust42]

The facemask analogy has every right in this debate. I think you need to sit down and watch video of horse collar tackles that have resulted in major knee, ankle or back injuries. I've seen examples and they're horrendous to watch. Just as grabbing and pulling the facemask can result in serious neck injuries, grabbing and suddenly pulling down on the collar of the shoulder pad can cause serious injury as well.

Football is indeed a violent, contact sport and no one is trying to "sissyfy" it, but it's not a "by any means necessary" sport either.

If you think pulling someone down by the collar is just as dangerous as pulling someone down my their facefask then you have 0 credibility in this debate.

[Marcus Garvey]

I think it's an unnecessary rule change. I agree that there are few injuries that result from the horse collar tackle. The object is to stop the ball carrier. The more rules there are regarding how you can do that, the more advantage the offense has. And I also agree that the horse collar in no way compares to the facemask.

They differ primarily in that the facemask is more likely to paralyze. Otherwise, they're likely to cause needlessly severe injuries. Anyway, the horsecollar rule is fairly easy to enforce, possibly even easier than the facemask rule. The most likely opportunities to horsecollar are in open field situations where it will be clear as the runner will fall backwards. That's not to say there won't be mistakes made, but there will be fewer bad "horsecollar" calls than bad holding calls. It will take a few years for refs to adapt to the rule though.

[Marcus Garvey]

If you think pulling someone down by the collar is just as dangerous as pulling someone down my their facefask then you have 0 credibility in this debate.

Only if he's arguing the horescollar can cause the same neck injuries. Oh, by the way, that's not his argument.

Hey, how do you feel about goalie masks in hockey or batting helmets in baseball? I mean, how many goalies and ballplayers have died? Like, 2? 3? xrolleyesx

[aust42]

Sweet jesus man. They're trying to reduce needlessly devasting injuries. It's the same reason why you can't pull on a facemask or spear.

Again the facemask is no comparison to the horse collar tackle. If you want to "reduce needlessly devasting injuries", then ban the game of tackle football and put a belt with flags around the players waste. Otherwise let the men play football the way it was meant to be played. Some of you folks sound like a bunch of soccer moms. ;)

[Marcus Garvey]

Again the facemask is no comparison to the horse collar tackle. If you want to "reduce needlessly devasting injuries", then ban the game of tackle football and put a belt with flags around the players waste. Otherwise let the men play football the way it was meant to be played. Some of you folks sound like a bunch of soccer moms. ;)

It's the same thing. It's using the equipment to gain an unfair advantage and cause serious harm

Actually, if you're a real man, you'd lower your shoulders, keep your head up, plow into the ball carier, wrap your arms and tackle him.

Of course, some pussy players need all the help they can get....

[aust42]

It's the same thing. It's using the equipment to gain an unfair advantage and cause serious harm

Actually, if you're a real man, you'd lower your shoulders, keep your head up, plow into the ball carier, wrap your arms and tackle him.

Of course, some pussy players need all the help they can get....

Obviously you've never played the game of football before. Read my previous posts for a clearer explanation.

[Marcus Garvey]

Obviously you've never played the game of football before. Read my previous posts for a clearer explanation.

Considering you jumped to erroneous conclusions based upon one post, you have zero credibility.

[Lionsrking]

Uh oh......Lionsrking and I are agreeing on something....

Clearly, a sign of the impending Apocalypse....

We're doomed!!!!!!!!xeekxxeekxxeekx

[Lionsrking]

Again the facemask is no comparison to the horse collar tackle. If you want to "reduce needlessly devasting injuries", then ban the game of tackle football and put a belt with flags around the players waste. Otherwise let the men play football the way it was meant to be played. Some of you folks sound like a bunch of soccer moms. ;)

You're entitled to your opinion, but the good thing is you're outnumbered in this debate and the rule has already been changed.

[aust42]

Considering you jumped to erroneous conclusions based upon one post, you have zero credibility.

Whatever dude, that makes no sense. The rules suck IMO, and that's all it is, an opinion, but a very credible one since I played the game. Your like a screaming liberal that MUST have the last word no matter what. You can have it. This is my last post on this subject. It's time for some cold one's at a Happy Hour somewhere.

[Lionsrking]

If you think pulling someone down by the collar is just as dangerous as pulling someone down my their facefask then you have 0 credibility in this debate.

I'll rest my case on the credibility issue...you've done a fine job making my case for me.

[FormerPokeCenter]

It's the same thing. It's using the equipment to gain an unfair advantage and cause serious harm

Actually, if you're a real man, you'd lower your shoulders, keep your head up, plow into the ball carier, wrap your arms and tackle him.

Of course, some pussy players need all the help they can get....


Dontcha hate it when those damn linebackers run away from contact?

[Panther88]

It's the same thing. It's using the equipment to gain an unfair advantage and cause serious harm

Actually, if you're a real man, you'd lower your shoulders, keep your head up, plow into the ball carier, wrap your arms and tackle him.

Of course, some pussy players need all the help they can get....


Dontcha hate it when those damn linebackers run away from contact?

You're kidding. Please let me laugh here---> xlolx

Football is a violent game where violent things occur. They're softening the violence aspect. lol May as well do away w/ the pads and put red/yellow flags on everyone.

[CID1990]

Whatever dude, that makes no sense. The rules suck IMO, and that's all it is, an opinion, but a very credible one since I played the game. Your like a screaming liberal that MUST have the last word no matter what. You can have it. This is my last post on this subject. It's time for some cold one's at a Happy Hour somewhere.

Dude, like, I don't like diss the rules cause they don't make sense, I like diss the rules cause they suck, dude. The rules suck cause I don't like them, and I don't like them cause they suck. Cause they suck, dude.

[FormerPokeCenter]

[QUOTE=FormerPokeCenter;1070036]

You're kidding. Please let me laugh here---> xlolx

Football is a violent game where violent things occur. They're softening the violence aspect. lol May as well do away w/ the pads and put red/yellow flags on everyone.

Thank you for the cutting insight, Mr. Obvious xeekx Ya know, until you posted that, I'd never really understood the inherently physical nature of the game...

I don't see the horsecollar rule as making the game easier or less violent, I see it as making the game safer. Nobody wants to see it made easier, we just need to make sure players are safer. I still think that horsecollaring is a girlish way of making a tackle. It's the football equivalent of pulling hair and tearing blouses...But, it's a girlish way of making a tackle that can result in injury.

Let me see if I understand your argument.

Are you really saying that the game will be fundamentally changed for the worse if you don't have the ability to horsecollar somebody, because it will remove a necessary and integral weapon from your arsenal of defensive tricks? I mean, are you saying that - from a defensive standpoint - it's too hard for a defensive player to shed a blocker and make a good, clean, heads up tackle for the game to be fair unless you have the ability to horsecollar somebody? Nobody's griping about grabbing a jersey and pulling a guy down. They're griping about using the area just below the back of the helmet as a handle to yank a guy down....

C'mon.....that's not what you're really saying, is it?

[jonmac]

So, if you aren't in position to make a perfect form tackle you are just supposed to let the ballcarrier go by? Yeah right, stay on the bench where you belong then. Grabbing a piece of equipment is by no means an unfair advantage. Guess we'll have to outlaw grasping the jersey next, or hanging on to an ankle. The open field, full speed horse collar can lead to devastating injury but there are also times it happens in close quarters that hardly ever leads to any injury. And diving at someone's legs? OK, no risk for injury there? Have at it. Actually, I believe that's being addressed too, hmmm. And way to exagerate with the assinine gun idea. You know that's not what I meant. Football used to be a claw, scratch, spit for all you can get toughman's game. Now, since if someone gets hurt they may not have a lucrative career as an overpaid pro player and have to scrounge around like the rest of us, the game is becoming more cissyfied. If they are going to say no horse collars period then it's just an idiotic zero tolerance rule. That's really what I'm getting at, it can happen at different times, in different situations and be dangerous and not dangerous.

[Lionsrking]

If they are going to say no horse collars period then it's just an idiotic zero tolerance rule. That's really what I'm getting at, it can happen at different times, in different situations and be dangerous and not dangerous.

You apparently don't understand the new horse collar rule...it's not a penalty to simply grab the runner by the collar to slow him down and ride him to the ground...it is a penalty to grab the collar, from behind, in the open field, and snap quickly to the ground...below is a quote from Rogers Redding...

Rogers Redding, NCAA football secretary-rules editor and coordinator of football officials for the Southeastern Conference, said the horse-collar ban might result in fewer back injuries.
"What we're hearing from trainers and physicians is we're getting some back injuries when the ball carrier is immediately snapped to the ground by being jerked quickly," he said. "If the ball carrier is grabbed by the shoulder or jersey and just ridden to the ground over a couple of yards, that's not going to be a foul."

[jonmac]

You apparently don't understand the new horse collar rule...it's not a penalty to simply grab the runner by the collar to slow him down and ride him to the ground...it is a penalty to grab the collar, from behind, in the open field, and snap quickly to the ground...below is a quote from Rogers Redding...

Rogers Redding, NCAA football secretary-rules editor and coordinator of football officials for the Southeastern Conference, said the horse-collar ban might result in fewer back injuries.
"What we're hearing from trainers and physicians is we're getting some back injuries when the ball carrier is immediately snapped to the ground by being jerked quickly," he said. "If the ball carrier is grabbed by the shoulder or jersey and just ridden to the ground over a couple of yards, that's not going to be a foul."

I can live with that. But we all know an official is going to have make a judgment call at some point and it will be disagreed with ( I have no problem with that, just part of the game), but there will be lots of complaining, I'm sure. My main problem with some of these posts has just been the assumption that there's only one way to properly tackle and those that don't tackle that way are p*ssies. Doesn't make much sense when the object is to get the ball carrier to the ground however possible within the rules. I say grab what you can, but if it's a rule, then hey, it's a rule. Don't have to like it, but can live with it.
xpeacex

[DSUrocks07]

Whatever dude, that makes no sense. The rules suck IMO, and that's all it is, an opinion, but a very credible one since I played the game. Your like a screaming liberal that MUST have the last word no matter what. You can have it. This is my last post on this subject. It's time for some cold one's at a Happy Hour somewhere.

Football with no rules... hmmm xoopsx

[ngineer]

The thing that boths me about some of the comments is that some appear to play the game for the primary purpose of causing phyiscal injury to other players. Yes, football is a tough, collision game. But the object of the game is not to render someone a para or quadraplegic (though it can happen inadvertently). In all the years I played from midget, through high school and college, I never went at someone with the intent to cause physical harm. Yes, I'd go with a good stick to try and jar the ball lose, and any tackle has to be done with force or you get run over. But the mindset that every play be played with the mentallity of the WWF is mindless; and it is that mindset that causes our game or any game to become over-regulated with rules.

[jonmac]

The thing that boths me about some of the comments is that some appear to play the game for the primary purpose of causing phyiscal injury to other players. Yes, football is a tough, collision game. But the object of the game is not to render someone a para or quadraplegic (though it can happen inadvertently). In all the years I played from midget, through high school and college, I never went at someone with the intent to cause physical harm. Yes, I'd go with a good stick to try and jar the ball lose, and any tackle has to be done with force or you get run over. But the mindset that every play be played with the mentallity of the WWF is mindless; and it is that mindset that causes our game or any game to become over-regulated with rules.

I hope my comments didn't come across that way. Not what I intended. The purpose is not causing physical injury. I'm just saying that sometimes you grab what you can, jersey, pads, etc, not with the intent to injure. It was just stated this is for p*ssies and I disagree with that. If you only tackle when you can perform a perfect form tackle then you miss a lot of tackles. Contact to the head was also mentioned, I doubt that in instances where a defender has been trying to bat a pass and comes in contact with the QB's head that he was intending to cause injury yet this is a penalty. I can understand an intentional blow to the head but some calls are debatable.

[Lionsrking]

I hope my comments didn't come across that way. Not what I intended. The purpose is not causing physical injury. I'm just saying that sometimes you grab what you can, jersey, pads, etc, not with the intent to injure.

I don't think intent has anything to do with it...I doubt seriously anyone (maybe a few bad apples) grabs a runner by the face mask with intent to injure...they grab it, usually by accident, to get the runner on the ground, yet it's still a major penalty if he hangs on and twists...Similar with the new horse collar rule...no one grabs a runner by the back of the neck (shoulder pads) to injure, they grab it to prevent a TD...but if it's done with a quick, backwards pulling action while the runner is extremely vulnerable, it will draw a 15-yard penalty, and rightly so...if it's using the collar simply for leverage to slow the runner down, that's probably not going to be a penalty as long as the tackler doesn't pull him to the ground quickly.

[aust42]

I hope my comments didn't come across that way. Not what I intended. The purpose is not causing physical injury. I'm just saying that sometimes you grab what you can, jersey, pads, etc, not with the intent to injure. It was just stated this is for p*ssies and I disagree with that. If you only tackle when you can perform a perfect form tackle then you miss a lot of tackles. Contact to the head was also mentioned, I doubt that in instances where a defender has been trying to bat a pass and comes in contact with the QB's head that he was intending to cause injury yet this is a penalty. I can understand an intentional blow to the head but some calls are debatable.


Exactly. I'm not sure how some of these posters interpreted this as wanting to cause physical injury and using the horse collar tackle as a method of tackling. Those who think that if you can't make a perfect form tackle every time your just an "unathetic pu$$ey" obviously never played the game of football before and will never understand.

If the NCAA enforces these new rules the way the NFL does there will be a lot of unnescesary 15 yard penalties for incidental contact whether it's the spearing, contact above the head or the horse collar tackle. The NFL's enforcement of their roughing the passer penalty is the perfect example of how the NFL Refs indiscriminately throw the flag leaving no room for interpretation. (that's probably the next NCAA rule change) They throw the flag if a d-lineman barely touches the QB's head. It's just ridiculous and can change the outcome of a game. I've just seen WAY too many bad calls in the NFL in enforcing the spearing, contact above the head, horse collar, etc. The NCAA needs to use common sense in enforcing these new rules. I'm just afraid it will be enforced the same way the NFL does.

[aust42]

Football with no rules... hmmm xoopsx

Yeah that's it. Nice interpretation DSUrocks07. xoopsx

[Lionsrking]

Exactly. I'm not sure how some of these posters interpreted this as wanting to cause physical injury and using the horse collar tackle as a method of tackling. Those who think that if you can't make a perfect form tackle every time your just an "unathetic pu$$ey" obviously never played the game of football before and will never understand.

If the NCAA enforces these new rules the way the NFL does there will be a lot of unnescesary 15 yard penalties for incidental contact whether it's the spearing, contact above the head or the horse collar tackle. The NFL's enforcement of their roughing the passer penalty is the perfect example of how the NFL Refs indiscriminately throw the flag leaving no room for interpretation. (that's probably the next NCAA rule change) They throw the flag if a d-lineman barely touches the QB's head. It's just ridiculous and can change the outcome of a game. I've just seen WAY too many bad calls in the NFL in enforcing the spearing, contact above the head, horse collar, etc. The NCAA needs to use common sense in enforcing these new rules. I'm just afraid it will be enforced the same way the NFL does.

So what your saying is because there's too many instances of unequal enforcement, we should just do away with the rules altogether? I agree there are plenty of examples of officials misinterpreting the rules but when it comes to rules designed to protect players, I'd rather too many flags than not enough. No question an "iffy" 15-yard flag could potentially change the outcome of a drive, or even a game, but a blown ACL, a torn achilles, or a ruptured disc in a kid's back could not only change a game, but could change that's kid's career, or even his life...that's no contest as far as I'm concerned.

[aust42]

So what your saying is because there's too many instances of unequal enforcement, we should just do away with the rules altogether? I agree there are plenty of examples of officials misinterpreting the rules but when it comes to rules designed to protect players, I'd rather too many flags than not enough. No question an "iffy" 15-yard flag could potentially change the outcome of a drive, or even a game, but a blown ACL, a torn achilles, or a ruptured disc in a kid's back could not only change a game, but could change that's kid's career, or even his life...that's no contest as far as I'm concerned.

Yeah that's what I'm saying, let's do away with all the rules. xoopsx I'm assuming your being sarcastic because you can't possible be that stupid. Injuries are part of the game of football. You can't put players in bubble wrap and/or be overzealous in making and enforcing rules to protect every single possible injury scenario. What's next? Banning tackling below the waist? That would prevent countless #'s of knee and ankle injuries.

[Lionsrking]

Yeah that's what I'm saying, let's do away with all the rules. xoopsx I'm assuming your being sarcastic because you can't possible be that stupid. Injuries are part of the game of football. You can't put players in bubble wrap and/or be overzealous in making and enforcing rules to protect every single possible injury scenario. What's next? Banning tackling below the waist? That would prevent countless #'s of knee and ankle injuries.

Perhaps you should re-read your own comments...I think most rationale folks would construe them the same way I did...obviously I did use a tad bit of sarcasm, but only to illustrate my point of how ludicrous your position is on this subject.

[aust42]

Perhaps you should re-read your own comments...I think most rationale folks would construe them the same way I did...obviously I did use a tad bit of sarcasm, but only to illustrate my point of how ludicrous your position is on this subject.

Ok your views are rational and my view is ludicrous. xbowx Of course I think I'm rational and your views are ludicrous. xpeacex
We're bickering like women at this point so no sense in continuing, besides it's Sat night, time to get ready to take my girlfriend out for dinner.

Have a good night!

[Panther88]

[QUOTE=Panther88;1070044]

Thank you for the cutting insight, Mr. Obvious xeekx Ya know, until you posted that, I'd never really understood the inherently physical nature of the game...

I don't see the horsecollar rule as making the game easier or less violent, I see it as making the game safer. Nobody wants to see it made easier, we just need to make sure players are safer. I still think that horsecollaring is a girlish way of making a tackle. It's the football equivalent of pulling hair and tearing blouses...But, it's a girlish way of making a tackle that can result in injury.

Let me see if I understand your argument.

Are you really saying that the game will be fundamentally changed for the worse if you don't have the ability to horsecollar somebody, because it will remove a necessary and integral weapon from your arsenal of defensive tricks? I mean, are you saying that - from a defensive standpoint - it's too hard for a defensive player to shed a blocker and make a good, clean, heads up tackle for the game to be fair unless you have the ability to horsecollar somebody? Nobody's griping about grabbing a jersey and pulling a guy down. They're griping about using the area just below the back of the helmet as a handle to yank a guy down....

C'mon.....that's not what you're really saying, is it?

:)

I think we're talking 2 differing things. I thought the horse-collaring rule was using someone's shoulder pads from behind (as they're running away from you) and literally snatching them down.

And for the record, if it's heads up, there's no way I 'grabbed' someone's jersey. lol It was, most times, get low, face on ball, wrap up w/ both arms, drive UP and then down into the ground. :) If "horse-collaring" is the tackle where you're in front of a defender and subsequently snatching the front part of the jersey/shoulder-pads and yanking them down in the front while their legs are somewhat "stiff," then yes, I do agree w/ that rule. I've seen too many leg injuries occur that way.

[Panther88]

C'mon back former Poke Ctr. Methinks this is therapy for you since you had an ILB horse-collar you a few times. lol ;)

[FormerPokeCenter]

The horsecollar tackle is the one where you grab the guy from behind, by the shoulder pads, and yank him violently backwards, sometimes causing his ankles, knees and hips to be contorted in positions they were never designed to accomodate...

It can also cause some accelleration/decelleration injuries to the neck and, if done just the "right" way, can cause a player to land on the back of his neck with little to no warning.

As to linebackers, I was generally dealing with a downed lineman, or pulling, and I didn't really go head to head with them that often, ecept in some goalline stuff.

However.....the way I remember it, anytime I faced a linebacker, I seem to remember running his ass down and blocking the hell out of him. :D

That's my story and I'm sticking to it....xnodx

[Panther88]

The horsecollar tackle is the one where you grab the guy from behind, by the shoulder pads, and yank him violently backwards, sometimes causing his ankles, knees and hips to be contorted in positions they were never designed to accomodate...

It can also cause some accelleration/decelleration injuries to the neck and, if done just the "right" way, can cause a player to land on the back of his neck with little to no warning.

As to linebackers, I was generally dealing with a downed lineman, or pulling, and I didn't really go head to head with them that often, ecept in some goalline stuff.

However.....the way I remember it, anytime I faced a linebacker, I seem to remember running his ass down and blocking the hell out of him. :D

That's my story and I'm sticking to it....xnodx

I'll dig deeper. Does the horse-collaring involve the defender rolling into the back of the legs of the offensive player while violently yanking him backwards? lol My goodness my mouth is watering. xlolx RWilliams shouldn've done it so many times. Shows someone got beat too often.

Also, I'm sure you tracked your man down. Afterall, the O-Line is where the 2nd most intelligent, agile, and athletic folx are on the field of play (QB is numero uno ;)).

[FormerPokeCenter]

I'll dig deeper. Does the horse-collaring involve the defender rolling into the back of the legs of the offensive player while violently yanking him backwards? lol My goodness my mouth is watering. xlolx RWilliams shouldn've done it so many times. Shows someone got beat too often.

Also, I'm sure you tracked your man down. Afterall, the O-Line is where the 2nd most intelligent, agile, and athletic folx are on the field of play (QB is numero uno ;)).

I told you, that's my story and I'm sticking to it ;)

And, FYI, offensive linemen aren't the second most intelligent guys on the team. Generally, they're the smartest guys on the field xnodx

[Panther88]

I told you, that's my story and I'm sticking to it ;)

And, FYI, offensive linemen aren't the second most intelligent guys on the team. Generally, they're the smartest guys on the field xnodx

Honestly, I used to think that until I remembered that I was once a former QB. xlolx The o-line is what makes the entire thing go (victory). However, if you have a not so bright one (read: dummy lol) @ the qb position, you're SOL and more than naught, in the "L" column. :)

[DaGriz]

Is it considered a horse collar if it happens behind the line of scrimmage?

http://web.montanagrizzlies.com/mtgriz/images/photo_gallery_images/2006_2007/Football/Photos/vs_South_Dak/t_kroy_biermann.jpg

[Bud2003]

I'm sorry to all of you naysayers..but horse collar prevention is 100% necessary. As an earlier poster put it, football IS a contact sport and is a game of collisions. BUT that does NOT make the game a knockdown, dragout, all holds barred, barbaric event!!! The game should be approached with respect and played WITH regard for your teammates’ and opponents’ safety. If a player is out there carelessly playing the game without regard for others around, that player DOES NOT need to be on the field.

Additionally, horse collaring is NOT contact, it is a “cheap” unnecessary way of getting someone to the ground. The penalty does not take anything away from the essence of football, it only adds to the safety…, which is vital. There is no place in this game for horse collaring, face-masking, illegal chop blocks, illegal blocking in the back, spearing, or UNECESSARY CONTACT ON A DEFENSELESS PLAYER (which will be monitored more and more….so I’m sure there will be even more complaints about that one, but it is necessary)

No penalty to protect players makes the game soft, it is done for one thing…safety.

*steps down from the soapbox*

[andy7171]

I'll dig deeper. Does the horse-collaring involve the defender rolling into the back of the legs of the offensive player while violently yanking him backwards? lol My goodness my mouth is watering. xlolx RWilliams shouldn've done it so many times. Shows someone got beat too often.

Also, I'm sure you tracked your man down. Afterall, the O-Line is where the 2nd most intelligent, agile, and athletic folx are on the field of play (QB is numero uno ;)).


I told you, that's my story and I'm sticking to it ;)

And, FYI, offensive linemen aren't the second most intelligent guys on the team. Generally, they're the smartest guys on the field xnodx

I like the way you guys think!


FWIW, I think this horsecollar pentaly is a bunch of crap.

[Panther88]

I detect biasness in this thread from former O-linemen.

*Panther88 gives instructions*
X-cross Y-out Z-drag I... on the color... X-cross Y-out Z-drag I... on the color... ready....

*break*

*FormerPokeCtr leaves huddle*
.
*FormerPokeCtr barks out blocking instructions for the line*

"48-H..."
"48-H..."
"BLUE! ":)

[Bud2003]

Is it considered a horse collar if it happens behind the line of scrimmage?

http://web.montanagrizzlies.com/mtgriz/images/photo_gallery_images/2006_2007/Football/Photos/vs_South_Dak/t_kroy_biermann.jpg

To answer this question.

"By definition: When a player grabs either the inside back collar or the side of the shoulder pads or jersey and immediately pulls the runner down. This does not apply to a runner who is inside the tackle box or to a quarterback who is in the pocket."

That's the rule in the NFL, so I'd imagine it would carry over to NCAAxthumbsupx

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/orl-spt-dirty-plays-football-082508,0,6285966.photogallery

[cats2506]

RULE 9
9-1-2-p (FR-119)
All players are prohibited from grabbing the inside back collar of the shoulder pads or jersey, or the inside collar of the side of the shoulder pads or jersey, and immediately pulling the runner down. This does not apply to a runner who is inside the tackle box or to a quarterback who is in the pocket.


NCAA version seems to be the same