Patriot League Offseason: Bucknell

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2008/08/patriot-league-offseason-2008-bucknell.html

My analysis of the offseason of *your* Bucknell Bison.

Pay close attention to a new part of my analysis: Fan Base... xlolx

[C-Mo]

thanks lfn. nice work. looking forward to the rest of the previews. love the fan base section. this one is really going to get the bucknellian's riled up, which is always a good thing. xlolx

[bison137]

Other than the inaccurate shot at the Bucknell fan base, two other corrections:

1. DeNick is no better than third and possibly fifth of the Bucknell QB prospects. Noshay, who was the 1st team All-Broward QB and started in the Dade-Broward all-star game, has to be #1. And Harbin, who played in a very strong league in TX and had some BCS interest, would be #2.

2. BU does not recruit TE's very often because they rarely use a TE in the triple option.

[C-Mo]

and that you made the 2nd round of the hoops playoffs last season.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Fixed. Surprised nobody pointed out that Lehigh's men's hoops got ousted in the first round TWO YEARS RUNNING by hapless Army, but there you go.

[bison137]

Fixed. Surprised nobody pointed out that Lehigh's men's hoops got ousted in the first round TWO YEARS RUNNING by hapless Army, but there you go.


How would anyone even know. The number of people attending Lehigh basketball games is lower than the attendance at an average garage sale. And Army doesn't add many more to the head count.

[Go...gate]

How would anyone even know. The number of people attending Lehigh basketball games is lower than the attendance at an average garage sale. And Army doesn't add many more to the head count.

My God, then what does that make Colgate's attendance? Saturday night at the average PL school library? xeekx

[bison137]

My God, then what does that make Colgate's attendance? Saturday night at the average PL school library? xeekx


Probably. Lehigh's real hoops attendance for the last decade has averaged just over 1000, so they are ahead of CU by quite a bit.

[ngineer]

Nice article LFN. Sorry to say, but the truth hurts. My daughter is a Bucknell grad (class of '02) and I've been to BU football games and have felt sorry for the players with the lack of support from the student body. It's not like the stadium is far away, like Goodman where one has to make an effort to get to. Lehigh..even in our mediocre seasons have had more fans in the visitors stands than Bucknell at Christy Matthewson.
Beautiful stadium, nice campus, excellent academics. Why they haven't been able to recruit of late is curious. They had a real nice run in the early to mid-90's.
That being said, they are young but could 'surprise' a team not ready for them. They have played Colgate tough, and knocked off Fordham last year. So they can get it together, though it seems any success feeds off the defense. Until shown, I still see them no better than 2-4 in the league this year--beating Georgetown and one of the '5 above'..ags.

[bison137]

LFN's comments about support of Bucknell sports in general was clearly off base. BU has had better support for most of its sports than other PL schools.

When it comes to football, I'd like to see higher football attendances, but the fact of the matter is that only Lehigh and, to a lesser extent, Holy Cross have consistenly drawn good crowds and both are in the center of large population bases and both have good football traditions. The NCAA attendance stats go back to 1997. Here is the average home attendance for PL schools from 1997-2007:

Lehigh 10,493
Holy Cross 6497
Lafayette 6157
Bucknell 5149
Lafayette (excl Lehigh games) 5102
Colgate 4107
Fordham 4105
Georgetown 2000 (e)

note: one year of Colgate's attendance is estimated


A few comments:

1. I've been to games at Lehigh, Colgate, Fordham, and Holy Cross, and I saw the same sparse student turnout that I often see at Bucknell.

2. The big factors in PL attendance are the population base of the area, the proximity of the alumni base, and the football tradition. Lewisburg and Hamilton are very small towns with low population in the adjacent areas. Additionally both have few alums within easy driving distance. LU, LC, and HC, in contrast, are in the center of large population areas and have far more alums within easy driving distance. BTW, Bucknell has actually outdrawn Colgate most years, and even has a higher attendance for the 2006-07 period.

3. With the exception of the Lehigh game, Lafayette traditionally has drawn no better than Bucknell - often worse. LC last year had its first average crowd of more than 5560 (excluding Lehigh attendance).

4. The average attendance for the four years your daughter attended BU was 4851. Certainly not great, but better than Colgate, Fordham, and Lafayette (excluding Lehigh games) for the same period.

[LUHawker]

LFN's comments about support of Bucknell sports in general was clearly off base. BU has had better support for most of its sports than other PL schools.

When it comes to football, I'd like to see higher football attendances, but the fact of the matter is that only Lehigh and, to a lesser extent, Holy Cross have consistenly drawn good crowds and both are in the center of large population bases and both have good football traditions. The NCAA attendance stats go back to 1997. Here is the average home attendance for PL schools from 1997-2007:

Lehigh 10,493
Holy Cross 6497
Lafayette 6157
Bucknell 5149
Lafayette (excl Lehigh games) 5102
Colgate 4107
Fordham 4105
Georgetown 2000 (e)

note: one year of Colgate's attendance is estimated


A few comments:

1. I've been to games at Lehigh, Colgate, Fordham, and Holy Cross, and I saw the same sparse student turnout that I often see at Bucknell.

2. The big factors in PL attendance are the population base of the area, the proximity of the alumni base, and the football tradition. Lewisburg and Hamilton are very small towns with low population in the adjacent areas. Additionally both have few alums within easy driving distance. LU, LC, and HC, in contrast, are in the center of large population areas and have far more alums within easy driving distance. BTW, Bucknell has actually outdrawn Colgate most years, and even has a higher attendance for the 2006-07 period.

3. With the exception of the Lehigh game, Lafayette traditionally has drawn no better than Bucknell - often worse. LC last year had its first average crowd of more than 5560 (excluding Lehigh attendance).

4. The average attendance for the four years your daughter attended BU was 4851. Certainly not great, but better than Colgate, Fordham, and Lafayette (excluding Lehigh games) for the same period.

As much as I enjoy Lehigh being the attendance leader, the fact of the matter is that attendance has been slowly shrinking at Lehigh. I remember my days in the early 90's when there were some really big crowds at Goodman that weren't Lafayette games. I think there are 2 or 3 reasons for this. 1. Lehigh's performance the past few years has been less good. 2. LU's Administration has sharply curtailed student tailgating, which has had the direct effect of reducing student attendance, and 3. The teams visiting Goodman haven't been as strong as in past years. Bucknell used to draw some huge crowds - same for Holy Cross, but as those teams fell on hard times, fan interest declined. Lastly, and I just thought of this one, LU's offense is not nearly as exciting as it was in the 90's and early part of this century when it aired it out frequently and put up a lot of points. Goodman is a great venue, particularly when there are many fannies in the seats. I hope we see some evidence of increased fan interest this year.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

As much as I enjoy Lehigh being the attendance leader, the fact of the matter is that attendance has been slowly shrinking at Lehigh. I remember my days in the early 90's when there were some really big crowds at Goodman that weren't Lafayette games. I think there are 2 or 3 reasons for this. 1. Lehigh's performance the past few years has been less good. 2. LU's Administration has sharply curtailed student tailgating, which has had the direct effect of reducing student attendance, and 3. The teams visiting Goodman haven't been as strong as in past years. Bucknell used to draw some huge crowds - same for Holy Cross, but as those teams fell on hard times, fan interest declined. Lastly, and I just thought of this one, LU's offense is not nearly as exciting as it was in the 90's and early part of this century when it aired it out frequently and put up a lot of points. Goodman is a great venue, particularly when there are many fannies in the seats. I hope we see some evidence of increased fan interest this year.

Hit the nail on the head. The curtailing of student tailgating, IMO, is a big one.

[DFW HOYA]

2. The big factors in PL attendance are the population base of the area, the proximity of the alumni base, and the football tradition.

As the square peg in the round hole of the PL, these assumptions don't always work at Georgetown. It has the second largest population base in the league (5 million metro area) and a sizeable alumni population (30,000 within one hour of campus, though only 3% of students are locals) and generates half the attendance (home or away) of any other school. This is not unexpected, of course, since its field has an announced capacity of 2,400 and all the ambiance of Parsons Field.

Between the absence of surface parking, no reserved seats, and no amenities at the games, alumni don't attend, but student turnout is, on the whole, better than some would guess.

And there is a football tradition at the Hilltop, but the glare from the gymnasium tends to overshadow the other 28 sports to a degree not experienced at most I-AA schools.

[carney2]

I know we've had this discussion before, but what's with student (non) attendance at football games? I know that they're a "new breed" and have lots of other distractions, but the state universities seem to do pretty well in their student sections, but these egghead schools have very few students in attendance who are not required to be there. As for Lafayette, the next student that I see at a non-Lehigh game that has not been dragged into the stadium by his/her parents will be the first. (That's overstating it a bit, but you get my point.)

[DFW HOYA]

I know we've had this discussion before, but what's with student (non) attendance at football games? I know that they're a "new breed" and have lots of other distractions, but the state universities seem to do pretty well in their student sections, but these egghead schools have very few students in attendance who are not required to be there.

Yes, state schools draw more, but outside of Texas A&M and Penn State, I-A student attendance is usually a fraction of the total student body. See the article below on student sales of 6,000 at Pac 10 games.

http://www.azstarnet.com/sn/wildcats/201009.php

Of course, there is also the wow factor. If Arizona is hosting USC, or Pitt hosts Notre Dame, kids will want to be there because it's an event. If Lafayette is hosting Georgetown or Fordham, the excitement level isn't there.

[Fordham]

a pretty constant theme on our boards for both hoop and football games is that later start times (e.g. - 6pm under the lights KO's) produce much better student turnouts. The implication is that they're too hung over to make a 12:30 or 1pm KO.

It'll be interesting to see if the fact that students can now attend for free for the first time will have a big impact this year. Hoping for a good turnout.

[Pard94]

I know we've had this discussion before, but what's with student (non) attendance at football games? I know that they're a "new breed" and have lots of other distractions, but the state universities seem to do pretty well in their student sections, but these egghead schools have very few students in attendance who are not required to be there. As for Lafayette, the next student that I see at a non-Lehigh game that has not been dragged into the stadium by his/her parents will be the first. (That's overstating it a bit, but you get my point.)

I thought attendance at Lafayette has been steadily on the rise, no? I think the quality of play has risen dramtically in the last 5 years. Certainly the quality of our facility has increased extraordinarily so. And I think the school has been doing a remarkable job and trying to strengthen the relationship with the city of Easton (largely by purchasing it). Not to mention increased TV and internet coverage...I think the more exposure we get the more likely that will translate to ticket sales. As all of this continues, I don't think it is unreasonable to expect an average attendance in the 7,000-8,000 range going forward for non-Lehigh games. When you consider we have less than 3,000 students enrolled in our school. That's not bad at all. Hopefully I am correct.

[ngineer]

I agree that overall attendance has dipped af football games in the PL and the strict tailgating rules are the #1 culprit. However, I was at the Bucknell/Lehigh game last year in Lewisburg, and I would bet there weren't 200 undergrads in the stands. Most were alums, parents, etc. From a student body of about 3500, one would think 1/3 could find their way over to the Christy.
Carney is also correct about the more 'eggheadedness' of the schools and the disdain more students have for being 'rah-rah'. Hell, for us it was just a great way to blow off steam and have great time on Saturday afternoon. As with a lot of things, I think it reflects a cultural shift in the student bodies. There is not casual attendee. IF a team is hot, then there will be an upward blip.
BTW--the largest non-Lafayette football crowd at Goodman was against Bucknell in 2000 with 16,906 packing the place. Of course, I think that was a Parents' Day weekend and gorgeous weather, and Bucknell has a fairly active alumni organization in the Lehigh Valley.
Being in a more 'urban' area, IMO, has more drawbacks as there is so much more competition with other colleges, the pros, high schools, etc. Seems to me Bucknell and Colgate are virtually the 'only show in town' in Lewisburg and Hamilton on a Saturday afternoon.

[Franks Tanks]

I thought attendance at Lafayette has been steadily on the rise, no? I think the quality of play has risen dramtically in the last 5 years. Certainly the quality of our facility has increased extraordinarily so. And I think the school has been doing a remarkable job and trying to strengthen the relationship with the city of Easton (largely by purchasing it). Not to mention increased TV and internet coverage...I think the more exposure we get the more likely that will translate to ticket sales. As all of this continues, I don't think it is unreasonable to expect an average attendance in the 7,000-8,000 range going forward for non-Lehigh games. When you consider we have less than 3,000 students enrolled in our school. That's not bad at all. Hopefully I am correct.


I believe we averaged about 8k last year without hosting Lehigh, not too shabby. The combination of later start times, a great new facility, and a team that has had more wins then Lehigh certainly helped. Some of those casual Lehigh Valley football fans are drifting over to Fisher now I believe, as the FB and stadium MAY be better then those boys in Goodman. (dont kill me notice I said MAY)

[bison137]

I believe we averaged about 8k last year without hosting Lehigh, not too shabby. The combination of later start times, a great new facility, and a team that has had more wins then Lehigh certainly helped. Some of those casual Lehigh Valley football fans are drifting over to Fisher now I believe, as the FB and stadium MAY be better then those boys in Goodman. (dont kill me notice I said MAY)



6975 - still not too shabby. That's the best in a non-Lehigh year by quite a bit iirc.

[carney2]

I believe we averaged about 8k last year without hosting Lehigh, not too shabby. The combination of later start times, a great new facility, and a team that has had more wins then Lehigh certainly helped. Some of those casual Lehigh Valley football fans are drifting over to Fisher now I believe, as the FB and stadium MAY be better then those boys in Goodman. (dont kill me notice I said MAY)

Home attendance for 6 games, 3 of them the 1st home night games in the new Fisher Stadium, was 41,852, or 6,975 per game.

I have not been able to find game by game attendance stats to get a day vs. night comparison. This year (excluding Lehigh) should provide a better comparison anyway because the 1st game last year (Marist) had fireworks and other incentives to boost the night attendance number.

Personally, I think Lafayette attendees are a hard core bunch with only a minor bump from locals looking for something to do. This group is aging and, with little student support - which should translate to reduced alumni support in the future, you have to ask about the long term viability of programs like this (and most of the others in the Patriot League). I say again, the glaring "hole" in the home stands is the empty/nonexistent student section. I have not seen much student support in the last 20 years. This is an entire generation of alumni who apparently don't care all that much about Lafayette football.

By the way, and as an aside that totally disrupts the flow of this narrative, I note that this year's home game vs. Harvard which is scheduled for September 27th and would normally be a night game, is scheduled for a 1:00 start. Word on the Lafayette board is that there is a Board of Trustees meeting that day, and some of these well heeled folks want to walk over to the stadium after their free lunch. Since my dictionary has a group photo of this bunch next to the word "idiots," I think it is a real good idea to cater to their whims.

[Go...gate]

LFN's comments about support of Bucknell sports in general was clearly off base. BU has had better support for most of its sports than other PL schools.

When it comes to football, I'd like to see higher football attendances, but the fact of the matter is that only Lehigh and, to a lesser extent, Holy Cross have consistenly drawn good crowds and both are in the center of large population bases and both have good football traditions. The NCAA attendance stats go back to 1997. Here is the average home attendance for PL schools from 1997-2007:

Lehigh 10,493
Holy Cross 6497
Lafayette 6157
Bucknell 5149
Lafayette (excl Lehigh games) 5102
Colgate 4107
Fordham 4105
Georgetown 2000 (e)

note: one year of Colgate's attendance is estimated


A few comments:

1. I've been to games at Lehigh, Colgate, Fordham, and Holy Cross, and I saw the same sparse student turnout that I often see at Bucknell.

2. The big factors in PL attendance are the population base of the area, the proximity of the alumni base, and the football tradition. Lewisburg and Hamilton are very small towns with low population in the adjacent areas. Additionally both have few alums within easy driving distance. LU, LC, and HC, in contrast, are in the center of large population areas and have far more alums within easy driving distance. BTW, Bucknell has actually outdrawn Colgate most years, and even has a higher attendance for the 2006-07 period.

3. With the exception of the Lehigh game, Lafayette traditionally has drawn no better than Bucknell - often worse. LC last year had its first average crowd of more than 5560 (excluding Lehigh attendance).

4. The average attendance for the four years your daughter attended BU was 4851. Certainly not great, but better than Colgate, Fordham, and Lafayette (excluding Lehigh games) for the same period.

I think you may be looking at this a bit too broadly. Colgate has a very rich football tradition, which was built in part on the fact that until about 12-15 years ago, it played 80% of its games on the road (many years, through the mid '80's, we played no more than 2-3 home games out of 10-11 in any particular season. When I was there, we were lucky to get three (for example, we always played on the road against traditional opponents such as Syracuse, Penn State, Army, Princeton, Yale, Brown and almost always against Rutgers, Holy Cross and Cornell). This is because Madison County and the region surrounding Colgate is heavily agricultural and fairly impoverished. When we had fewer home games, the crowds were usually bigger, though still usually less than 10,000. As a result, the only schools who would play us at home consistently were Bucknell, Lehigh ("College Division" schools for many years), Lafayette and Boston University (after they de-emphasized football in the 1960's)

The present AD's insistence on home-and-home series in all sports, including football, has pushed home attendance down further and has also denied us some of the more attractive "stretch" games which we have traditionally played for over a century. I hasten to add that this problem similarly affected basketball, which before the Patriot League was formed, also played a very ambitious schedule, mostly on the road, making do with between 7-9 home games a year out of 24-26 total games, often playing D-III teams. Indeed, to some extent Colgate has adhered to this philosophy for all of its teams over the years and especially prior to coeducation, which began in 1970-71.

Some so-called "experts" on other boards (though almost never on this board) consider low attendance a basis to heavily criticize Colgate's Division I status. I hope this provides some clarification.