Does if make sense to expand the southland now?

[FiniteMan]

I am wrapping my head around the concept of "core" FCS members and the implications they create.

It has lead me to wonder if the Southland might be in trouble if the upgrading teams try to bring some southland BB schools with them.

"31.3.4.5 Additional Requirements, Men’s Basketball. The member conference must include seven core institutions. For the purposes of this legislation, core refers to an institution that has been an active member of Division I the eight preceding years. Further, the continuity-of-membership requirement shall be met only if a minimum of six core institutions have conducted conference competition together in Division I the preceding five years in men’s basketball. There shall be no exception to the five-year waiting period. Any new member added to a member conference that satisfies these requirements shall be immediately eligible to represent the conference as the automatic qualifier. (Revised: 8/14/90, 12/3/90, 4/27/00, 4/29/04 effective 8/1/04)"

I think 11 Southland schools---every school but UCA which upgraded in 2006 is considered a "Core" Div1 member --- but I could be wrong about TAMU-CC. They moved up in 1999 and I think would be considered grandfathered even if they were in transition when the NCAA rules were created. (?)

It occurs to me that if the FBS 4 don't get invites from FBS conferences --- a very possible scenario, in 2013 or so they will try to start their own conference. Along those lines, they would be much more attractive to UTA & TAMU-CC (the non-football members of the Southland) as they have the better TV markets ($), are closer, and the non-football members (of which UTSA and Lamar are currently and have been part of) are often run down by the southland.

That would be 6 core D1 members who have played together for 5 years. Adding UNT, La Tech, Arky State, or NM State --- or even UTPA would give them the membership to satisfy the criteria for 7/6/5 and would give them grounds to sue for a NCAA BB automatic berth if it isn't forthcoming. (I think they'd get it without sueing). Having that BB berth would make stealing outlying FBS schools whose fans don't like their conferences possible.

Now what about the remaining 6 Southland schools? In 2013 UCA will be an active member but they won't be a core member. The southland could be looking at having 5 core members.

"31.3.4.5.1 Grace Period. A conference shall remain eligible for automatic qualification for two years following the date of withdrawal of the institution(s) that causes the conference’s membership to fall below seven institutions, or below six members with continuity of membership, provided the conference maintains at least six Division I members. (Adopted: 4/27/00; Revised: 4/29/04 effective 8/1/04"

Now that would allow them to retain their bid for 2 years, but what after that? I hope someone can answer that question for me.

I am guessing they could lure in Oral Roberts and Centenary --- two Core member institions --- as an FCS conference with good members like UCA and McNeese is much higher profile than a non-football basketball conference. Much smaller travel footprint would please all involved.

The question I have is after the two years are up, won't the FCS southland STILL not satisfy the 7/6/5 rule? Would they lose their BB bid? Or would UCA's transition years count towards their 8 for Core status?

It seems to me that if they expanded to 14 now, this wouldn't be an issue in 2013 or whenever the FBS 4 make their move. I wonder if not expanding is some kind of game of chicken or something with the FBS 4?

[chrisattsu]

Tarleton
West Texas A&M
Abilene Christian
Central Oklahoma

[TexasTerror]

The SLC has no reason to expand now. Having 12 basketball teams is perfect. Works for other sports too (see VB, soccer, tennis) because you have travel partners that are ideals.

Nine football schools (when Lamar comes in) works for FCS because that's four home/four away. A 10th football school would not be good as the SLC will not do the "mandate" (per the SWAC) and I think you'd be taking a few rivalry games away (think Nicholls-TXST) between "interdivisional" schools.

[FiniteMan]

Tarleton
West Texas A&M
Abilene Christian
Central Oklahoma

Sadly, none of them help the FCS Southland in the scenario above. All would be transitional members of D1, not even "active" members, and would not become "core" D1 members for the transition period + 8 years.


(On a related note as another LSC school fan dreaming of FCS you might enjoy this thread I wrote.

http://ncaasports.proboards10.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=2068 )

[FiniteMan]

The SLC has no reason to expand now. Having 12 basketball teams is perfect. Works for other sports too (see VB, soccer, tennis) because you have travel partners that are ideals.

Nine football schools (when Lamar comes in) works for FCS because that's four home/four away. A 10th football school would not be good as the SLC will not do the "mandate" (per the SWAC) and I think you'd be taking a few rivalry games away (think Nicholls-TXST) between "interdivisional" schools.

If UTSA, Texas State, Lamar, and SHSU had no intentions of moving up, everything that you wrote would be correct.

The scenario I have laid out deals with what happens if they go through with their plans and upgrade.

If I am reading the rules correctly, For there to be enough "core" D1 members in the Sunbelt for a UTSA,Texas State, SHSU, Lamar + 2 others (UTA & TAMU-CC) breakaway not to drop the FCS (eastern) Sunbelt irrevocably below 7 core members for MORE than the 2 season grace period (effectively costing the FCS Sunbelt it's auto bid) it seems like they should be adding at least 1 more "core" D1 member NOW. (Obviously, they would probably want 2 schools for an even number.)

Let's ignore scheduling for a second. Let's say McNeese, SFA, and the others read the rule as I do and recognize that a breakaway could cost them their NCAA Tourney bid. If they offered a membership to a "core" D1 member like say Savannah State (on the Georgia/South Carolina border). SS does not have a conference. They don't get a NCAA tourney share and aren't likely to get a bid. They have few options beyond hoping the MEAC lets them in eventually. They probably don't have the finances to afford travel to the distant locations in the Great West... but the southland? They could probably deal with those travel costs for a while. The tourney money could offset SOME of those costs and conference membership in a pretty high profile conference might get them into their eventual goal conference down the road. The breakaway 4 won't take them.

If the Southland were to add them today, in 2013 if a split occurs, they would be a 6th "core" D1 member who has played with SFA, McNeese, Nicholls State, SEL, NW State (and "active" UCA) for 5 years. At that point in 2013 inviting ANY "core" D1 member would satisfy the 7/6/5 rule long term.

If I read the rule right, the 5 years together part could kill their NCAA tourney bid, opening the conference to things like a McNeese defection to some conference with a bid (OVC?). It could create a series of tumblers that destroy the FCS southland.

[TexasTerror]

There's no team the SLC would find attractive at this point that would be "core".

There's a reason Centenary has been rejected several times. They are reportedly according to the Shreveport paper looking at a move out of Div I. They have a President that thoroughly enjoys them being the smallest Div I school.

Oral Roberts? Would make a bit of sense, but they have never been mentioned before. They're a strong program, but is the SLC interested in adding a non-football school with the risk there that a football school (or few) could be leaving?

UALR and UNO could leave the Sun Belt, but the SBC is too good a conference to leave. They'd have to be shown the door and I do not believe the SBC minds a 12/10 breakdown when Denver leaves.

[FiniteMan]

Now certainly, I am not saying that Savannah State is the conference's only option. I mentioned them specifically because they have few options, and IMO that is what you want from the school that is going to guarantee you don't lose your tourney bid. If the MEAC continues to be ambivilant towards them, their best option is a conference like the Great West. The fact that they turned down membership to the GW, indicates that Savannah State (a very small public) simply doesn't have the money for that obnoxious travel footprint.

I think if you offered them a fair share of the BB revenue, you could offer them a 12 year membership for basketball only that had stiff penalties to escape and they would probably take it.
If the Southland splits, you are protected. You can add as few as 2 "core schools"...maybe even 1...and when UCA becomes core you can simply terminate your relationship with Savanah State. UCA then becomes your 6th Core member over 5 years.

From Savannah State's perspective it is a decent deal. There are only 2 real money sports, football and basketball. Being in the Southland for football would PROBABLY be a money drain for SS. They can play anyone they want in the east much cheaper and could still get an at large bid. In BB, a tourney share is the lure. In BB they could do a 3 game road trip to Texas or Louisiana. Even on a temporary basis it works.

[citdog]

i am ALWAYS for "expanding the Southland"xrulesx

[DFW HOYA]

There's a reason Centenary has been rejected several times. They are reportedly according to the Shreveport paper looking at a move out of Div I. They have a President that thoroughly enjoys them being the smallest Div I school.

So the school is looking, but the President isn't? xconfusedx

Either way, Centenary would have very few options in lower divisions--the SCAC (Rhodes, Millsaps, Sewanee) is the closest D-III league but even it does a fair amount of travel. Still, even with only 854 undergrads, there's no reason why Centenary should pack it in. Look at what Elon has been able to do of late.

[FiniteMan]

There's no team the SLC would find attractive at this point that would be "core".

With respect, this is actually not totally true. There are nice candidates that the Southland could legitimately add, but those schools would require full memberships and would probably require the conference going to 14 for the next 5 year --- IMO a good idea.

You have mentioned ORU and Centenary who are admittedly SOMEWHAT marginal in that they aren't football schools.

Assuming that in 2013, you are looking at SFA being your furthest west member, why not look east?

The Southland is considered one of the premeire FCS conferences. They are higher in the pecking order than a lot of neighboring conferences.

Let's start with the SWAC, a conference of historically Black Colleges and Universities. The SWAC has a big chink in their armour. They refuse to play in the FCS playoffs. Southern, Grambling, and Alabama State block it and can get away with it because there are a half dozen DII HBCUs with FCS caliber support dying to get in. That means as good as Jackson State (core) or Texas Southern (core) could ever be, they will never, EVER be FCS national champs. You think the football coach and athletic directors at those schools wouldn't push for a Southland slot? A national title = long term job security.

The Ohio Valley Conference is next. Jacksonville State (core) is an outlier as the only school in the conference in Alabama. (They are located in the Birmingham DMA between Birmingham and Atlanta.) They dream of an FBS future, but the OVC rules are quite strict. They have an "all-or-not policy". That is their chink. If Jacksonville State leaves the OVC for FBS football, the OVC kicks them out for everything else. If the Southland were to offer them an all-sports home with a promise of say a 4 season "grace period" to host their other sports if they jump up to FBS, Jacksonville State would probably bite. Jacksonville is probably in the worst conference out there for attempting an FBS jump. Tennessee State (core) is an HBCU with a long history in the OVC, but they have everything needed for an FBS jump. To protect their options, they might consider the Southland for the same reason.

Down the pecking order is the non-football Atlantic Sun Conference. Obviously being non-football is a big chink. Kennesaw State is a large public in an Atlanta suburb that has publically stated dreams of football --- they just haven't decided on FCS or FBS yet. This would be a great opportunity to sell them on FCS. They are in the same boat as UCA as far as they will only be an "active" member in 2013, but they would be a sweet future football member.

If the short term goal was 14, adding Jacksonville State and Jackson State would put you in great shape to ride out a possible western succession.

How does a 2014 Southland of:

Steven F Austin
Texas Southern
Nicholls State
Northwestern State
SE Louisiana
McNeese State
Central Arkansas
Jackson State
Tennessee State
Jacksonville State
Kennesaw State

grab you? East Texas to Atlanta. I think that is probably just as good as today's Southland if not better,(with the Birmingham, Nashville, Jackson, and Atlanta DMAs helping replace the TV/media coverage loss in Texas) but it won't happen if the conference loses its NCAA tourney bid.

[McTailGator]

I am wrapping my head around the concept of "core" FCS members and the implications they create.

It has lead me to wonder if the Southland might be in trouble if the upgrading teams try to bring some southland BB schools with them.

"31.3.4.5 Additional Requirements, Men’s Basketball. The member conference must include seven core institutions. For the purposes of this legislation, core refers to an institution that has been an active member of Division I the eight preceding years. Further, the continuity-of-membership requirement shall be met only if a minimum of six core institutions have conducted conference competition together in Division I the preceding five years in men’s basketball. There shall be no exception to the five-year waiting period. Any new member added to a member conference that satisfies these requirements shall be immediately eligible to represent the conference as the automatic qualifier. (Revised: 8/14/90, 12/3/90, 4/27/00, 4/29/04 effective 8/1/04)"

I think 11 Southland schools---every school but UCA which upgraded in 2006 is considered a "Core" Div1 member --- but I could be wrong about TAMU-CC. They moved up in 1999 and I think would be considered grandfathered even if they were in transition when the NCAA rules were created. (?)

It occurs to me that if the FBS 4 don't get invites from FBS conferences --- a very possible scenario, in 2013 or so they will try to start their own conference. Along those lines, they would be much more attractive to UTA & TAMU-CC (the non-football members of the Southland) as they have the better TV markets ($), are closer, and the non-football members (of which UTSA and Lamar are currently and have been part of) are often run down by the southland.

That would be 6 core D1 members who have played together for 5 years. Adding UNT, La Tech, Arky State, or NM State --- or even UTPA would give them the membership to satisfy the criteria for 7/6/5 and would give them grounds to sue for a NCAA BB automatic berth if it isn't forthcoming. (I think they'd get it without sueing). Having that BB berth would make stealing outlying FBS schools whose fans don't like their conferences possible.

Now what about the remaining 6 Southland schools? In 2013 UCA will be an active member but they won't be a core member. The southland could be looking at having 5 core members.

"31.3.4.5.1 Grace Period. A conference shall remain eligible for automatic qualification for two years following the date of withdrawal of the institution(s) that causes the conference’s membership to fall below seven institutions, or below six members with continuity of membership, provided the conference maintains at least six Division I members. (Adopted: 4/27/00; Revised: 4/29/04 effective 8/1/04"

Now that would allow them to retain their bid for 2 years, but what after that? I hope someone can answer that question for me.

I am guessing they could lure in Oral Roberts and Centenary --- two Core member institions --- as an FCS conference with good members like UCA and McNeese is much higher profile than a non-football basketball conference. Much smaller travel footprint would please all involved.

The question I have is after the two years are up, won't the FCS southland STILL not satisfy the 7/6/5 rule? Would they lose their BB bid? Or would UCA's transition years count towards their 8 for Core status?

It seems to me that if they expanded to 14 now, this wouldn't be an issue in 2013 or whenever the FBS 4 make their move. I wonder if not expanding is some kind of game of chicken or something with the FBS 4?


I say no to expansion at this point.

We just do not have a need at this time.


Scheduling is fine with 12 in non-FB sports, and football will get crowded with only 11 games schedules and the stupidity of pushing the beginning of the playoffs up a week, which will screw up the open dates and be extreamly difficult on the players.

We MUST be able to schedule some big money guarantees to meet our budget demands, so that is one less home game for us.

Plus, our fans want to see home and home with some quality FCS OOC opponents (or SWAC teams), so that will only leave us with so many extra games to get us to 6 home games.

[TexasTerror]

So the school is looking, but the President isn't? xconfusedx

The school was asked to apply to the Southland and they did, in the most recent attempt. In previous years, the school itself had applied without encouragement from the conference. Either way, I do not think the school is that attractive.

Nicholls State is currently the school that is pinched the most budget-wise and this would be taking in a school that is an even worse shape than them!


You have mentioned ORU and Centenary who are admittedly SOMEWHAT marginal in that they aren't football schools.

Oral Roberts would be a nice fit, Centenary would not. It would be allowing a school into the conference that has no business being in the conference.


Let's start with the SWAC, a conference of historically Black Colleges and Universities. The SWAC has a big chink in their armour. They refuse to play in the FCS playoffs. Southern, Grambling, and Alabama State block it and can get away with it because there are a half dozen DII HBCUs with FCS caliber support dying to get in. That means as good as Jackson State (core) or Texas Southern (core) could ever be, they will never, EVER be FCS national champs. You think the football coach and athletic directors at those schools wouldn't push for a Southland slot? A national title = long term job security.

The SWAC schools a) have no interest in playing for a national title and b) would not give up the rivalry games or pay days that come from being in the SWAC. Texas Southern would not want to throw away chances to play Grambling, Southern and whichever other schools travel en masse to their games to make up for their lackluster personal home attendance.


The Ohio Valley Conference is next. Jacksonville State (core) is an outlier as the only school in the conference in Alabama. (They are located in the Birmingham DMA between Birmingham and Atlanta.) They dream of an FBS future, but the OVC rules are quite strict. They have an "all-or-not policy". That is their chink. If Jacksonville State leaves the OVC for FBS football, the OVC kicks them out for everything else. If the Southland were to offer them an all-sports home with a promise of say a 4 season "grace period" to host their other sports if they jump up to FBS, Jacksonville State would probably bite. Jacksonville is probably in the worst conference out there for attempting an FBS jump. Tennessee State (core) is an HBCU with a long history in the OVC, but they have everything needed for an FBS jump. To protect their options, they might consider the Southland for the same reason.

You are thinking too much out of the box! JaxSt would go to the Sun Belt if they ever left the OVC. They actually have a better chance at getting in than a school like San Marcos. Tennessee State? That's a bit far-fetched. They'd either stay in the OVC or go to an HBCU conference unless something changed dramatically.


Down the pecking order is the non-football Atlantic Sun Conference. Obviously being non-football is a big chink. Kennesaw State is a large public in an Atlanta suburb that has publically stated dreams of football --- they just haven't decided on FCS or FBS yet. This would be a great opportunity to sell them on FCS. They are in the same boat as UCA as far as they will only be an "active" member in 2013, but they would be a sweet future football member.

The A-Sun is too far out of the geographic region of the Southland. The Southland will only expand into Mississippi or Oklahoma at this point in time outside of the current shell. You are looking too far east and into Georgia and Florida when you bring the A-Sun. Rumors are that the A-Sun may be close to having football themselves...


If the short term goal was 14, adding Jacksonville State and Jackson State would put you in great shape to ride out a possible western succession.

JSU would not leave the SWAC. We've already talked on JaxSt...


How does a 2014 Southland of:

Steven F Austin
Texas Southern
Nicholls State
Northwestern State
SE Louisiana
McNeese State
Central Arkansas
Jackson State
Tennessee State
Jacksonville State
Kennesaw State

grab you? East Texas to Atlanta. I think that is probably just as good as today's Southland if not better,(with the Birmingham, Nashville, Jackson, and Atlanta DMAs helping replace the TV/media coverage loss in Texas) but it won't happen if the conference loses its NCAA tourney bid.

You need to pass around whatever it is you have. Neither of the JSUs or TSUs plus Kennessaw State will ever see a day in the Southland Conference.

[McTailGator]

With respect, this is actually not totally true. There are nice candidates that the Southland could legitimately add, but those schools would require full memberships and would probably require the conference going to 14 for the next 5 year --- IMO a good idea.

You have mentioned ORU and Centenary who are admittedly SOMEWHAT marginal in that they aren't football schools.

Assuming that in 2013, you are looking at SFA being your furthest west member, why not look east?

The Southland is considered one of the premeire FCS conferences. They are higher in the pecking order than a lot of neighboring conferences.

Let's start with the SWAC, a conference of historically Black Colleges and Universities. The SWAC has a big chink in their armour. They refuse to play in the FCS playoffs. Southern, Grambling, and Alabama State block it and can get away with it because there are a half dozen DII HBCUs with FCS caliber support dying to get in. That means as good as Jackson State (core) or Texas Southern (core) could ever be, they will never, EVER be FCS national champs. You think the football coach and athletic directors at those schools wouldn't push for a Southland slot? A national title = long term job security.

The Ohio Valley Conference is next. Jacksonville State (core) is an outlier as the only school in the conference in Alabama. (They are located in the Birmingham DMA between Birmingham and Atlanta.) They dream of an FBS future, but the OVC rules are quite strict. They have an "all-or-not policy". That is their chink. If Jacksonville State leaves the OVC for FBS football, the OVC kicks them out for everything else. If the Southland were to offer them an all-sports home with a promise of say a 4 season "grace period" to host their other sports if they jump up to FBS, Jacksonville State would probably bite. Jacksonville is probably in the worst conference out there for attempting an FBS jump. Tennessee State (core) is an HBCU with a long history in the OVC, but they have everything needed for an FBS jump. To protect their options, they might consider the Southland for the same reason.

Down the pecking order is the non-football Atlantic Sun Conference. Obviously being non-football is a big chink. Kennesaw State is a large public in an Atlanta suburb that has publically stated dreams of football --- they just haven't decided on FCS or FBS yet. This would be a great opportunity to sell them on FCS. They are in the same boat as UCA as far as they will only be an "active" member in 2013, but they would be a sweet future football member.

If the short term goal was 14, adding Jacksonville State and Jackson State would put you in great shape to ride out a possible western succession.

How does a 2014 Southland of:

Steven F Austin
Texas Southern
Nicholls State
Northwestern State
SE Louisiana
McNeese State
Central Arkansas
Jackson State
Tennessee State
Jacksonville State
Kennesaw State

grab you? East Texas to Atlanta. I think that is probably just as good as today's Southland if not better,(with the Birmingham, Nashville, Jackson, and Atlanta DMAs helping replace the TV/media coverage loss in Texas) but it won't happen if the conference loses its NCAA tourney bid.




Dispite the delusions of a very few of it's fans and their pre-historic AD, LAMAR is not going to move OVER to FBS, they will not have the support of the community (i.e, fans in the seats) to make that happen. History proves my point.

And at this point, Texas State will not be able to achieve that status either. They are having to GIVE away 1000 season tickets to help them meet their goal of 2500. They can not count on only their students and their fees to get them the average needed. They must have a fans base that purchases tickets every week.

SHSU is in worse shape than TxSU, it ain't hppening.

McNEESE is the only school that even remotly has a legitimate shot at moving OVER to the FBS if we desired it (and we don't at this point, but this earlier playoff thing just might change our minds). We are close enough to the attendance requirments and sale more season tickets than 90% of the Slum Belch does now.

And if we ever decided to push it in the Lake Area Community, and push ticket sales and attendance more than we did this year (which was a nice push), we could easily meet the minimum requirments of FCS. But what would we gain by being in the worst football conference in the history of the NCAA?


IF and only if the SLC needs to expand, Centenary and ORU will be considered.

But not untill it have a need. And I think the SLC is safe for a long time.

[TexasTerror]

I do not think the SLC will see a time where the "core" issue comes into play because the conference has done a great job in expansion and even if a school or two leaves (which is probable -- I agree with McTail, Lamar is further down the list), they may look towards a Div II squad or perhaps a school like Houston Baptist before they were to look at Centenary.

HBU and Tarleton State makes a bunch more sense than Centenary when the "core" issue is thrown out. You'll need a football when (fill in the blank) leaves...so Tarleton State is the leader in the clubhouse...though I've always been partial to Delta State.

[FiniteMan]

Centenary...Oral Roberts?

I mentioned those as an economically sensible add, but one thing that should be mentioned is that if you look at the history of conferences, you almost never see a conference sink another conference unless they absolutely have to for survival. They may make things difficult. They may force you to admit a member you wouldn't normally have wanted, but they don't want to drive you out of business because they never know when the AD you screwed will be the conference director they need tomorrow.

I mention this because Centenary and Oral Roberts are in the Summit. The summit has 8 core members. Now it is possible that if the they were taken, the Summit could offer Chicago State (core) a slot and that would give them 7. But Chicago State was pretty publically run out of the summit. The assumption is that they would want back in, but frankly they may hold their ground.

As I understand it, the Summit crew runs the Great West. Chicago State is yet to committ to the GW. Bad travel and no autobid is a possible reason for that, but bad blood could play a role too.

What if Chicago State said no? There are few other options. Travel to the Summitt schools might be slightly beyond what Savannah State could afford. Raid UTPA from the GW? --- potentially fatally injuring it. Will Seattle or Denver agree to fill the gap or would they have to merge the GW and Summit ---possibly a good move long term as you can split them later, but a real egg in the face moment that might lead to defection of some of the schools.

Potentially, a move like this MIGHT create two conferences worth of enemies for all involved on the Southland side, so I would suspect they would look at less disruptive adds.


Would make a bit of sense, but they have never been mentioned before. They're a strong program, but is the SLC interested in adding a non-football school with the risk there that a football school (or few) could be leaving?

Again, all of this is about retaining your Tourney bid. If you lose it, then the Southland falls BELOW the OVC and you risk the OVC stealing McNeese or UCA for #12 or maybe for 12 and 13 if they take action in anticipation of a Jacksonville State loss.... If you have no tourney bid and the OVC does...?


UALR and UNO could leave the Sun Belt, but the SBC is too good a conference to leave. They'd have to be shown the door and I do not believe the SBC minds a 12/10 breakdown when Denver leaves.

With regards to UALR and NO, remember if the southland 4 do move up they could raid some sunbelt schools. Tighter footprints and a better conference reputation (no reputation is better than a bad one) would appeal to UNT and ULL and maybe even Arky State (although I think they would stay). Additionally if CUSA splits West/East as there has been talk (Texas schools are a voting block; ECU and Marshall hate the costs of repeated trips to Texas), the Eastern CUSA schools would probably raid schools like Troy (competitiveness), FAU (competitiveness, DMA, and recruiting), and FIU(DMA and recruiting). It is entirely possible that the Sunbelt could need both of those schools to retain THEIR tourney bid. I don't see either school being available to the Southland.

[FiniteMan]

Dispite the delusions of a very few of it's fans and their pre-historic AD, LAMAR is not going to move OVER to FBS, they will not have the support of the community (i.e, fans in the seats) to make that happen. History proves my point.

With respect, this is simply an opinion. Lamar could go either way. They drew quite well when they were playing at the same level as UH and the others, their program only lost support when they downgraded to FCS.

That said, that was 20 years ago. A lot of those supporters have moved and/or are dead. Who knows. In terms of building a football fanbase, they are ahead of a total new startup like FIU or UTSA, but we won't know until we see what happens.


And at this point, Texas State will not be able to achieve that status either. They are having to GIVE away 1000 season tickets to help them meet their goal of 2500. They can not count on only their students and their fees to get them the average needed. They must have a fans base that purchases tickets every week.

Texas state has averaged 12056 per game over the last 4 years. They are almost certain to hit the number required to move up, and even if they legitmately narrowly miss it they will do what every other school in that situation has done and lie. :)


SHSU is in worse shape than TxSU, it ain't hppening.

SHSU attendance numbers are lower at 8662 over the 2004-2007 seasons. Here I think you might have your saving grace. Their stadium only sits 14000. IMO, they have to upgrade to at least 17-19 or so to have a shot at hitting the attendance numbers.

I haven't heard anything concrete out of them on that front. That could push their ascension back a year or two or totally derail it. It is also possible like FAMU their opportunity may come and go.

It doesn't change the possibilty that the conference commissioner may be in denial as his conference dies. (Assuming I understand the rules properly. I encourage anyone who has a different read to correct me.)

UTSA will be the only football option in San Antonio unless you count Div III. They'll make it when they jump.


McNEESE is the only school that even remotly has a legitimate shot at moving OVER to the FBS if we desired it (and we don't at this point, but this earlier playoff thing just might change our minds). We are close enough to the attendance requirments and sale more season tickets than 90% of the Slum Belch does now.

And if we ever decided to push it in the Lake Area Community, and push ticket sales and attendance more than we did this year (which was a nice push), we could easily meet the minimum requirments of FCS. But what would we gain by being in the worst football conference in the history of the NCAA?

This is so much McNeese chest beating. Does McNeese have the highest attendance average in the Southland? Yes. 12483 over 2004-7. Are they a better FBS candidate in the Southland? No. ULL is pretty close by and there aren't many people out that way anyway = no advertisers, no TV $. McNeese would be lucky to get an invite from the Southland 4 to help create a conference or the Sunbelt if they were hurting.

You have said before that McNeese makes a ton more sense as an FCS school. If they don't go with the Southland 4, I totally agree.


IF and only if the SLC needs to expand, Centenary and ORU will be considered.

But not untill it have a need. And I think the SLC is safe for a long time.

Did you get the 5 year part of the rule and do you get what that might imply? Even if you add them in 2013, if I read the rule right, it would be too little, too late.

[BEAR]

I've never understood the attendance policy of the NCAA. So what if you live in a small state wihere population can't draw 15k to a game. For example, I live in Conway where 50k reside, but to bring 15k of that populaiton out would be tough. Not because of the product, it's good, but because of the social makeup of the area and the fact the piggies have everyone in this state hating anyone else but them. If an FCS school like UCA moves to the FBS and plays larger schools then their average attendance goes way up but it doesn't show what true numbers actually go to the games. UAPB averages more than ark state in numbers but in reality they don't! I've been to their games recently and I can tell you that unless they play someone at war memorial or an FBS, they don't average what they print! That's from someone who goes to their games on a regular basis to see the great talent they have there! A UCA v Ark. state game would be a big draw. A UCA v UAPB game would be a big draw. A uca v. henderson st. or u.a. monticello or even a quincy would be very low. Is it the level of divisions or the market that brings in more fans? Atendance isn't a true measure of a good FCS or FBS school. Mixing them up in divisons only complicates the matter also. ark state won't want to be in the same conference as UCA. xlolx

[McTailGator]

With respect, this is simply an opinion. Lamar could go either way. They drew quite well when they were playing at the same level as UH and the others, their program only lost support when they downgraded to FCS.

That said, that was 20 years ago. A lot of those supporters have moved and/or are dead. Who knows. In terms of building a football fanbase, they are ahead of a total new startup like FIU or UTSA, but we won't know until we see what happens.



Texas state has averaged 12056 per game over the last 4 years. They are almost certain to hit the number required to move up, and even if they legitmately narrowly miss it they will do what every other school in that situation has done and lie. :)



SHSU attendance numbers are lower at 8662 over the 2004-2007 seasons. Here I think you might have your saving grace. Their stadium only sits 14000. IMO, they have to upgrade to at least 17-19 or so to have a shot at hitting the attendance numbers.

I haven't heard anything concrete out of them on that front. That could push their ascension back a year or two or totally derail it. It is also possible like FAMU their opportunity may come and go.

It doesn't change the possibilty that the conference commissioner may be in denial as his conference dies. (Assuming I understand the rules properly. I encourage anyone who has a different read to correct me.)

UTSA will be the only football option in San Antonio unless you count Div III. They'll make it when they jump.



This is so much McNeese chest beating. Does McNeese have the highest attendance average in the Southland? Yes. 12483 over 2004-7. Are they a better FBS candidate in the Southland? No. ULL is pretty close by and there aren't many people out that way anyway = no advertisers, no TV $. McNeese would be lucky to get an invite from the Southland 4 to help create a conference or the Sunbelt if they were hurting.

You have said before that McNeese makes a ton more sense as an FCS school. If they don't go with the Southland 4, I totally agree.



Did you get the 5 year part of the rule and do you get what that might imply? Even if you add them in 2013, if I read the rule right, it would be too little, too late.


You can not look at McNeese's attendance from 04 to 06 due to a bad season in 04, after we lost so many players and had some grad issues with students that we took care of, and of course the Hurricane effected us in 05 and 06.

Our attendance will be up in the high to mid 15K's now with no problem.

As far as TXSU's attendance goes, I say BS. I have been to a game with less than 6,000 in attendance and they claimed 12,000. The NCAA will require that number to be "certified", for enclusion in FBS. It ain't happening.



LAMAR NEVER got that kind of support, regardless of the level they played at. If they don't win, they will NOT get support. WINNING is everything.


AND yes ULL is close by. That is why we mop up the Acadiana area every year in recruiting, those kids want to win, so they come to McNeese. Only the losers go to ULL.

And don't forget, a Lake Area TV station was the FIRST to sign onto the SLC TV Network. KVHP already had plans to televise every out of town McNeese game this year. Their plan is to air the Cowboys over the old signal, and the SLC TV over their HD signal.

I also expect a Lafayette area station to sign onto the SLC TV Net as well, give the large number of McNeese players and alumni in that area.

The SLC will do whatever it needs to do to remain elligable for inclusion in the NCAA toruney, but if you come to a primarily football message board wanting SLC fans to reduce the quality of our football programs for the sake of our basketball programs, which most fans here could give a rats @$$ about, it just ain;t gonna happen. They would sacrifice basketball for football in a minute. That is where McNeese fans and Lamar fans differ. You guys like basketball, and we could really care less about it.

[NSUDemon98]

With respect, this is simply an opinion. Lamar could go either way. They drew quite well when they were playing at the same level as UH and the others, their program only lost support when they downgraded to FCS.

That said, that was 20 years ago. A lot of those supporters have moved and/or are dead. Who knows. In terms of building a football fanbase, they are ahead of a total new startup like FIU or UTSA, but we won't know until we see what happens.



Texas state has averaged 12056 per game over the last 4 years. They are almost certain to hit the number required to move up, and even if they legitmately narrowly miss it they will do what every other school in that situation has done and lie. :)



SHSU attendance numbers are lower at 8662 over the 2004-2007 seasons. Here I think you might have your saving grace. Their stadium only sits 14000. IMO, they have to upgrade to at least 17-19 or so to have a shot at hitting the attendance numbers.

I haven't heard anything concrete out of them on that front. That could push their ascension back a year or two or totally derail it. It is also possible like FAMU their opportunity may come and go.

It doesn't change the possibilty that the conference commissioner may be in denial as his conference dies. (Assuming I understand the rules properly. I encourage anyone who has a different read to correct me.)

UTSA will be the only football option in San Antonio unless you count Div III. They'll make it when they jump.



This is so much McNeese chest beating. Does McNeese have the highest attendance average in the Southland? Yes. 12483 over 2004-7. Are they a better FBS candidate in the Southland? No. ULL is pretty close by and there aren't many people out that way anyway = no advertisers, no TV $. McNeese would be lucky to get an invite from the Southland 4 to help create a conference or the Sunbelt if they were hurting.

You have said before that McNeese makes a ton more sense as an FCS school. If they don't go with the Southland 4, I totally agree.



Did you get the 5 year part of the rule and do you get what that might imply? Even if you add them in 2013, if I read the rule right, it would be too little, too late.

Get use to the chest beating if you're gonna hang around this board or any other that he posts on. He pummels anyone with a different opinion than his own into submission with being totally obnoxious. xrolleyesx

[813Jag]

With respect, this is actually not totally true. There are nice candidates that the Southland could legitimately add, but those schools would require full memberships and would probably require the conference going to 14 for the next 5 year --- IMO a good idea.

You have mentioned ORU and Centenary who are admittedly SOMEWHAT marginal in that they aren't football schools.

Assuming that in 2013, you are looking at SFA being your furthest west member, why not look east?

The Southland is considered one of the premeire FCS conferences. They are higher in the pecking order than a lot of neighboring conferences.

Let's start with the SWAC, a conference of historically Black Colleges and Universities. The SWAC has a big chink in their armour. They refuse to play in the FCS playoffs. Southern, Grambling, and Alabama State block it and can get away with it because there are a half dozen DII HBCUs with FCS caliber support dying to get in. That means as good as Jackson State (core) or Texas Southern (core) could ever be, they will never, EVER be FCS national champs. You think the football coach and athletic directors at those schools wouldn't push for a Southland slot? A national title = long term job security.
The Ohio Valley Conference is next. Jacksonville State (core) is an outlier as the only school in the conference in Alabama. (They are located in the Birmingham DMA between Birmingham and Atlanta.) They dream of an FBS future, but the OVC rules are quite strict. They have an "all-or-not policy". That is their chink. If Jacksonville State leaves the OVC for FBS football, the OVC kicks them out for everything else. If the Southland were to offer them an all-sports home with a promise of say a 4 season "grace period" to host their other sports if they jump up to FBS, Jacksonville State would probably bite. Jacksonville is probably in the worst conference out there for attempting an FBS jump. Tennessee State (core) is an HBCU with a long history in the OVC, but they have everything needed for an FBS jump. To protect their options, they might consider the Southland for the same reason.

Down the pecking order is the non-football Atlantic Sun Conference. Obviously being non-football is a big chink. Kennesaw State is a large public in an Atlanta suburb that has publically stated dreams of football --- they just haven't decided on FCS or FBS yet. This would be a great opportunity to sell them on FCS. They are in the same boat as UCA as far as they will only be an "active" member in 2013, but they would be a sweet future football member.

If the short term goal was 14, adding Jacksonville State and Jackson State would put you in great shape to ride out a possible western succession.

How does a 2014 Southland of:

Steven F Austin
Texas Southern
Nicholls State
Northwestern State
SE Louisiana
McNeese State
Central Arkansas
Jackson State
Tennessee State
Jacksonville State
Kennesaw State

grab you? East Texas to Atlanta. I think that is probably just as good as today's Southland if not better,(with the Birmingham, Nashville, Jackson, and Atlanta DMAs helping replace the TV/media coverage loss in Texas) but it won't happen if the conference loses its NCAA tourney bid.
I just wanted to toss this out, Southern, Grambling, nor Alabama State block any of the other 7 teams from to going to the playoffs. The SWAC title game does that.

[centexguy]

You can not look at McNeese's attendance from 04 to 06 due to a bad season in 04, after we lost so many players and had some grad issues with students that we took care of, and of course the Hurricane effected us in 05 and 06.

Our attendance will be up in the high to mid 15K's now with no problem.

As far as TXSU's attendance goes, I say BS. I have been to a game with less than 6,000 in attendance and they claimed 12,000. The NCAA will require that number to be "certified", for enclusion in FBS. It ain't happening.



LAMAR NEVER got that kind of support, regardless of the level they played at. If they don't win, they will NOT get support. WINNING is everything.


AND yes ULL is close by. That is why we mop up the Acadiana area every year in recruiting, those kids want to win, so they come to McNeese. Only the losers go to ULL.

And don't forget, a Lake Area TV station was the FIRST to sign onto the SLC TV Network. KVHP already had plans to televise every out of town McNeese game this year. Their plan is to air the Cowboys over the old signal, and the SLC TV over their HD signal.

I also expect a Lafayette area station to sign onto the SLC TV Net as well, give the large number of McNeese players and alumni in that area.

The SLC will do whatever it needs to do to remain elligable for inclusion in the NCAA toruney, but if you come to a primarily football message board wanting SLC fans to reduce the quality of our football programs for the sake of our basketball programs, which most fans here could give a rats @$$ about, it just ain;t gonna happen. They would sacrifice basketball for football in a minute. That is where McNeese fans and Lamar fans differ. You guys like basketball, and we could really care less about it.

Lamar averaged over 16,000 a game in 1979 when they went 6-3-2, after going 7-36-1 the previous 4 years. All it takes is winning and the fans will come out. Lamar was new to D1-A football back then and really didn't support the program. Football will have the full support of the administration this time around and the community will support it.

Right before the football program was terminated in 1989, the football booster club had pledges for over 4,000 season tickets, so even after many losing seasons, the support from the community was there, but Lamar hardly gave them a product worth supporting.

And the community still supports Lamar basketball even though they've only had a couple of 20-win seasons and 1 trip to the NCAAs since the mid-80s. Lamar always leads the league in basketball attendance. This is a plus for Lamar, and why Lamar would have a leg up on other SLCs for an invite to a another conference. Basketball and the other sports are important to other conferences, which is probably why McNeese will always stay in the SLC.

[FiniteMan]

I just wanted to toss this out, Southern, Grambling, nor Alabama State block any of the other 7 teams from to going to the playoffs. The SWAC title game does that.

I guess what I posted could be taken as misleading. What I meant by that is that those 3 schools have tradional matchups that are scheduled at the end of the season that they probably wouldn't move. I think that more than the championship game is your real hurdle. I suspect that just like the Southland there are people in the conference who aren't sold on the status quo. I mentioned Jackson State and Texas Southern because they are the two schools that jump out as potential FBS schools.

[TexasTerror]

I mentioned Jackson State and Texas Southern because they are the two schools that jump out as potential FBS schools.

Texas Southern "jumps out" as a potential FBS school?

Well, there went the credibility of this thread. I think we could all leave now...xlolx

[FiniteMan]

I've never understood the attendance policy of the NCAA. So what if you live in a small state wihere population can't draw 15k to a game. For example, I live in Conway where 50k reside, but to bring 15k of that populaiton out would be tough. Not because of the product, it's good, but because of the social makeup of the area and the fact the piggies have everyone in this state hating anyone else but them....ark state won't want to be in the same conference as UCA. xlolx


With regards to the much maligned attendance minimums, they are put in for a good reason. Without them every school's AD in FCS would be pushing to play FBS football and more schools would be losing money hand over fist. In theory, the attendance minimums keep a lot of schools with no chance to have self-sufficient programs from bleeding their universities to death in pursuit of an emotional silver bullet fix for everything wrong with their universities. Sadly it seems like every school handles attendance differently.

Gate attendance/ticket sales/merchandising --- all factors of fan support and often measurable though game attendance --- should theoretically pay the bills for football.

EMU...Kent State...They have missed the minimum so many times in a row, that they SHOULD be forced down to cheaper FCS level. Schools like NMSU, Idaho, Utah State... They should be being pushed to get attendance up for their school's financial health.

Ideally the attendance numbers and enrollment numbers should allow the NCAA to work a lot English Soccer, letting teams with support move up and allowing teams without to inexpensively downgrade, but the NCAA has junked up their system with so many crappy rules. (6 years to transition. 8 years to become a core member...just a bunch of garbage.)

20K attendance or so upwards = FBS. 6K to 20K = FCS. 0-6K = FCCS. Maybe allow some leeway on schools not wanting to upgrade who have enrollment numbers that suite that level...say an FBS lower cap of 13K if the school has 15K+ full time enrollment, an FCS upper cap of 22K if a school has less than 15K full time enrollment, and an FCCS upper cap of 8K if a school has less than 8K full time enrollment...Maybe they could be sliding scale exception criteria. Whatever. Something so the schools that are competing with each other are using similar financial resources.

(I am so tired of seeing UTD promoting the fact that they whip up on the University of 2000 students in Div III. Play a peer already, you are embarassing me.)

I think the basketball rules screw up FBS and FCS and cost a ton of schools huge money unneccessarily. Most of the dog FBS schools that have upgraded have only done so because they felt they were being lost in FCS! Shirk FBS and you'd likely have TV money for the FCS schools. Half of FCS are schools which would just as soon play at a DII level but want to make sure they stay in the NCAA basketball tourney mix.

I mean what are the Pioneer, Patroit, Ivy, and NEC other than DII football conferences with nicer facitlities?

I think maybe D1 basketball should not only include FBS, FCS, and IAAA schools but maybe also expand the feild to 96 and give 32 slots to the thirty two best DII schools and let them have a shot at playing in. That won't kill the NIT.

Right there you'd probably get a lot of weaker schools in FCS to downgrade making FCS more "elite".

With regards to the UCA/Arky State arguement, very true. It would likely be one or the other if the southland 4 pursued them, but both might be candidates.

[FiniteMan]

Texas Southern "jumps out" as a potential FBS school?

Well, there went the credibility of this thread. I think we could all leave now...xlolx

Texas Southern

Location: Houston
enrollment: 11,365, largest enrollment in the SWAC
2004-2006 average attendance: 10,397
Stadium: play some games at the tiny Alexander Durly sports complex 5,600 and some at 68K reliant stadium.
Market: Houston DMA (2.050M TV households) 10th largest DMA in the US.
Arena: Health and physical education arena 8,100
Recruiting potential at the FBS level: Houston is one of the nation's football and basketball hotbeds with large African American population (25% of the city). As one of the highest profile HBCUs in the nation (if they upgraded) they would likely do quite well.

McNeese...Sunbelt or maybe Texas State and UTSA carry them up on their backs to FBS.

Now do not put words in my mouth. There are probably 25 candidates in the FCS level who could break even at the FBS level if things worked out for them. They could also all fail miserably if things don't work out.

For Texas Southern it would require a major PR push, student and alumni financial contributions, and probably playing all games at Reliant. As their fan base and target markets are different from UH and Rice, I think they could hit the FBS solid 20-30k a game like Houston and Rice do for football and frankly they could become a basketball power.

[FiniteMan]

Texas Southern "jumps out" as a potential FBS school?

Well, there went the credibility of this thread. I think we could all leave now...xlolx

Texas Southern

Location: Houston
enrollment: 11,365, largest enrollment in the SWAC
2004-2006 average attendance: 10,397
Stadium: play some games at the tiny Alexander Durly sports complex 5,600 and some at 68K reliant stadium.
Market: Houston DMA (2.050M TV households) 10th largest DMA in the US.
Arena: Health and physical education arena 8,100
Recruiting potential at the FBS level: Houston is one of the nation's football and basketball hotbeds with large African American population (25% of the city). As one of the highest profile HBCUs in the nation (if they upgraded) they would likely do quite well.

vs.

McNeese...Sunbelt or maybe Texas State and UTSA carry them up on their backs to FBS.

Frankly it's prospects are as good or better than Sam Houston's.

Now do not put words in my mouth. There are probably 30 candidates in the FCS level or lower who could break even at the FBS level if things worked out for them. They could also all fail miserably if things don't work out.

For Texas Southern it would require probably a 1 - 4 state conference footprint, a major PR push, student and alumni financial contributions, and probably playing all games at Reliant. As their fan base and target markets are different from UH and Rice, I think they could hit the FBS solid 20-30k a game average like Houston and Rice do for football and frankly they could become a basketball power as there is not one currently in Houston, although A&M is getting close to that.

[FiniteMan]

Texas Southern "jumps out" as a potential FBS school?

Well, there went the credibility of this thread. I think we could all leave now...xlolx

Texas Southern

Location: Houston
enrollment: 11,365, largest enrollment in the SWAC
2004-2006 average attendance: 10,397
Stadium: play some games at the tiny Alexander Durly sports complex 5,600 and some at 68K reliant stadium.
Market: Houston DMA (2.050M TV households) 10th largest DMA in the US.
Arena: Health and physical education arena 8,100
Recruiting potential at the FBS level: Houston is one of the nation's football and basketball hotbeds with large African American population (25% of the city). As one of the highest profile HBCUs in the nation (if they upgraded) they would likely do quite well.

vs.

McNeese...Sunbelt or maybe Texas State and UTSA carry them up on their backs to FBS.

Frankly it's prospects are as good or better than Sam Houston's.

Now do not put words in my mouth. There are probably 30 candidates in the FCS level or lower who could break even at the FBS level if things worked out for them. They could also all fail miserably if things don't work out.

For Texas Southern it would require probably a 1 - 4 state conference footprint, a major PR push, student and alumni financial contributions, and probably playing all games at Reliant. (Possibly not even an option anyway. Texas Southern has agreed to figure out a deal with the local soccer team to build a new stadium that they would share. Who knows the planned capacity?) As their fan base and target markets are different from UH and Rice, I think they could hit the FBS solid 20-30k a game average like Houston and Rice do for football and frankly they could become a basketball power as there is not one currently in Houston, although A&M is getting close to that.

[FiniteMan]

...The SLC will do whatever it needs to do to remain elligable for inclusion in the NCAA tourney, but if you come to a primarily football message board wanting SLC fans to reduce the quality of our football programs for the sake of our basketball programs, which most fans here could give a rats @$$ about, it just ain't gonna happen. They would sacrifice basketball for football in a minute. That is where McNeese fans and Lamar fans differ. You guys like basketball, and we could really care less about it.

I am bringing it to your attention anyway. Chose to ignore it if you like, but don't misinterpret my motivations. I don't even watch college basketball until the tourney starts.

Possible timeline:
2013 - UTSA, Texas State and Lamar are ready to jump. They take SHSU (still getting their stadium settled) and non-football UTA and TAMU-CC and leave.

The remaining schools lack the 6th core member playing with them for 5 years to be able to just "add another core member or two" to retain their automatic bid. The NCAA rules allow a grace period of 2 years, but as there is no way to create a 6th core D1 member who has played with them for the last 5 years at that point, the conference will lose their bid for at least 3 years after the 2 year grace period ends.

2014 - Seen by all as a conference in ruin, the sharks attack. the OVC in preparaion of booting out Jacksonville state raids the Southland of McNeese and either SEL or NW St. With the loss of 2 of their 5 core members who have played together for the last 5 years, the conference's chance of reclaiming their automatic bid moves years down the road.

2019 - What remains of the Southland might conceivably get back their tourney autobid.

No FCS football school worth a darn is going to join an FCS conferenc without an autobid. Between 2014-and 2019, you won't see any established core FCS teams with football programs joining. You might land a non-football core school or two, but probably all enrollment jumps would likely come from DII ---which would help football, but won't help you land a tourney bid.

I am not hating on the Southland. I'd like to see all members of the Southland in healthy conferences in 2014. I am concerned in that I think I see a coming problem that could be easily avoided if action is taken in the next 2 years.

[McTailGator]

I am bringing it to your attention anyway. Chose to ignore it if you like, but don't misinterpret my motivations. I don't even watch college basketball until the tourney starts.

Possible timeline:
2013 - UTSA, Texas State and Lamar are ready to jump. They take SHSU (still getting their stadium settled) and non-football UTA and TAMU-CC and leave.

The remaining schools lack the 6th core member playing with them for 5 years to be able to just "add another core member or two" to retain their automatic bid. The NCAA rules allow a grace period of 2 years, but as there is no way to create a 6th core D1 member who has played with them for the last 5 years at that point, the conference will lose their bid for at least 3 years after the 2 year grace period ends.

2014 - Seen by all as a conference in ruin, the sharks attack. the OVC in preparaion of booting out Jacksonville state raids the Southland of McNeese and either SEL or NW St. With the loss of 2 of their 5 core members who have played together for the last 5 years, the conference's chance of reclaiming their automatic bid moves years down the road.

2019 - What remains of the Southland might conceivably get back their tourney autobid.

No FCS football school worth a darn is going to join an FCS conferenc without an autobid. Between 2014-and 2019, you won't see any established core FCS teams with football programs joining. You might land a non-football core school or two, but probably all enrollment jumps would likely come from DII ---which would help football, but won't help you land a tourney bid.

I am not hating on the Southland. I'd like to see all members of the Southland in healthy conferences in 2014. I am concerned in that I think I see a coming problem that could be easily avoided if action is taken in the next 2 years.


Bottom line is...

No one in the SLC is going anywhere.

[FiniteMan]

The SWAC schools a) have no interest in playing for a national title and b) would not give up the rivalry games or pay days that come from being in the SWAC. Texas Southern would not want to throw away chances to play Grambling, Southern and whichever other schools travel en masse to their games to make up for their lackluster personal home attendance.

Does it matter how you gets the seats in the stand if you get them in the stand? Do you think UH and Rice would risk being seen as snubbing Texas Southern if they played FBS? Would Texas A&M play a middling Houston team at their stadium or a middling rice team at their stadium or Texas Southern at Reliant --- a stadium big enough for the aggies travlling squad to fill while also expanding Aggie exposure to Houson's African American football fan community? You have to think about this a little deeper than you are. There are a lot of potential ins that Texas Southern would have at the FBS level that they do not at the FCS.


You are thinking too much out of the box! JaxSt would go to the Sun Belt if they ever left the OVC. They actually have a better chance at getting in than a school like San Marcos. Tennessee State? That's a bit far-fetched. They'd either stay in the OVC or go to an HBCU conference unless something changed dramatically.

Jacksonville State knows they need to build a stadium before they can jump to FBS. Having a stable reliable home conference that would make it easy to move up would be a huge benefit to them, especially if the conferenc is pretty good at football. I certainly didn't suggest Tennessee State was a favorite, only a potential member. Tennessee State has already jumped beyond the comfort of an all HBCUs conference. I think with that in mind there is no reason to think they would jump to a conference with a lot of quirks like the SWAC --- the only nearby FCS HBCU conference.


The A-Sun is too far out of the geographic region of the Southland. The Southland will only expand into Mississippi or Oklahoma at this point in time outside of the current shell. You are looking too far east and into Georgia and Florida when you bring the A-Sun. Rumors are that the A-Sun may be close to having football themselves...

SFA to Kennesaw State is 608 Mi.
UCA to TAMU-CC is 588 Mi.

I can understand not travelling that far for the Corpus TV market, but wouldn't you go 20 miles farther for the Atlanta market?

I have heard whispers of the A-Sun playing football too, but when you follow up on the rumors they tend to start and end with Kennesaw (who has a publically stated desire to play football) and E. Tenn. State (which had a student referendum to restore football but it failed, something that the president said closed the door on football.) If you'd heard anything else, I'd love to hear it, but I have not.

[RabidRabbit]

UTPA and Chicago St. are Core schools. I know they don't carry football, but they could help in 2011 or earlier.

I know nobody in the Southland is eager to look north, but UND/USD would be attractive all sports schools with FCS football starting as early as 2012.

Doesn't help the Core issue until 2020, but definitely will be strong FCS schools.

Cal Poly and UC-Davis may be football only options.

[RabidRabbit]

UTPA and Chicago St. are Core schools. I know they don't carry football, but they could help in 2011 or earlier.

I know nobody in the Southland is eager to look north, but UND/USD would be attractive all sports schools with FCS football starting as early as 2012.

Doesn't help the Core issue until 2020, but definitely will be strong FCS schools.

Cal Poly and UC-Davis may be football only options.

[TexasTerror]

Texas Southern

Location: Houston
enrollment: 11,365, largest enrollment in the SWAC
2004-2006 average attendance: 10,397
Stadium: play some games at the tiny Alexander Durly sports complex 5,600 and some at 68K reliant stadium.
Market: Houston DMA (2.050M TV households) 10th largest DMA in the US.
Arena: Health and physical education arena 8,100
Recruiting potential at the FBS level: Houston is one of the nation's football and basketball hotbeds with large African American population (25% of the city). As one of the highest profile HBCUs in the nation (if they upgraded) they would likely do quite well.


Blah, blah, blah, blah...blah!

Despite all of this, they have failed to produce in the SWAC. Have you followed their program any outside of providing said facts? Also, have you actually checked their home attendance at Durley? Forget the games at Reliant, those do not count. See their attendance last year? They had 750 for their season finale. Sure, the fans were protesting, but they didn't draw that much better for the other games.
vs.


Now do not put words in my mouth. There are probably 30 candidates in the FCS level or lower who could break even at the FBS level if things worked out for them. They could also all fail miserably if things don't work out.

Break even? Do you know how many schools in FBS make money? Do you know how many schools in Division I on a whole break even? Get support from their school above what they were supposed to in order to break even? Or better yet, are in the red? I know a program that was $1.5M in debt last year...and I bet none of their fans realize as much.


For Texas Southern it would require probably a 1 - 4 state conference footprint, a major PR push, student and alumni financial contributions, and probably playing all games at Reliant. (Possibly not even an option anyway. Texas Southern has agreed to figure out a deal with the local soccer team to build a new stadium that they would share. Who knows the planned capacity?) As their fan base and target markets are different from UH and Rice, I think they could hit the FBS solid 20-30k a game average like Houston and Rice do for football and frankly they could become a basketball power as there is not one currently in Houston, although A&M is getting close to that.

All games at Reliant? That costs a lot and if you are not drawing fans, you are not going to do well in paying that bill. Robertson made no sense for them and that was cheaper. The Dynamo stadium deal will be good, planned capacity is 22-24k.

Major PR push? From the same school who can't even update their web site? Last football headline is 2007 "practive" from spring football. Go figure! I could go on...

And how do you figure they draw more than Houston or Rice? They can't even draw 1/3rd of Houston's draw or 1/2 of Rice's draw. They are going to have to grow quickly...

And a basketball power? They can't develop that. The facility is nice and better than quite a few, even in the Southland. But, what about baseball and softball? The city park works for those programs? There's 3A programs that have better facilities...

[SUjagTILLiDIE]

Does it matter how you gets the seats in the stand if you get them in the stand? Do you think UH and Rice would risk being seen as snubbing Texas Southern if they played FBS? Would Texas A&M play a middling Houston team at their stadium or a middling rice team at their stadium or Texas Southern at Reliant --- a stadium big enough for the aggies travlling squad to fill while also expanding Aggie exposure to Houson's African American football fan community? You have to think about this a little deeper than you are. There are a lot of potential ins that Texas Southern would have at the FBS level that they do not at the FCS.



Jacksonville State knows they need to build a stadium before they can jump to FBS. Having a stable reliable home conference that would make it easy to move up would be a huge benefit to them, especially if the conferenc is pretty good at football. I certainly didn't suggest Tennessee State was a favorite, only a potential member. Tennessee State has already jumped beyond the comfort of an all HBCUs conference. I think with that in mind there is no reason to think they would jump to a conference with a lot of quirks like the SWAC --- the only nearby FCS HBCU conference.



SFA to Kennesaw State is 608 Mi.
UCA to TAMU-CC is 588 Mi.

I can understand not travelling that far for the Corpus TV market, but wouldn't you go 20 miles farther for the Atlanta market?

I have heard whispers of the A-Sun playing football too, but when you follow up on the rumors they tend to start and end with Kennesaw (who has a publically stated desire to play football) and E. Tenn. State (which had a student referendum to restore football but it failed, something that the president said closed the door on football.) If you'd heard anything else, I'd love to hear it, but I have not.
Tenn St. tried to join the SWAC around 99. Former Swac commissioner Rudy Washington turned them down, due to a NCAA investigation. Tenn St. would be a perfect fit to the SWAC. If you look at their games, the only ones that are well attended are HBCU games and 3 of their 4 historic rivials (Jackson St.,Southern, and Grambling) are in the SWAC with Famu being in the MEAC.

[SUjagTILLiDIE]

Texas Southern

Location: Houston
enrollment: 11,365, largest enrollment in the SWAC
2004-2006 average attendance: 10,397
Stadium: play some games at the tiny Alexander Durly sports complex 5,600 and some at 68K reliant stadium.
Market: Houston DMA (2.050M TV households) 10th largest DMA in the US.
Arena: Health and physical education arena 8,100
Recruiting potential at the FBS level: Houston is one of the nation's football and basketball hotbeds with large African American population (25% of the city). As one of the highest profile HBCUs in the nation (if they upgraded) they would likely do quite well.

vs.

McNeese...Sunbelt or maybe Texas State and UTSA carry them up on their backs to FBS.

Frankly it's prospects are as good or better than Sam Houston's.

Now do not put words in my mouth. There are probably 30 candidates in the FCS level or lower who could break even at the FBS level if things worked out for them. They could also all fail miserably if things don't work out.

For Texas Southern it would require probably a 1 - 4 state conference footprint, a major PR push, student and alumni financial contributions, and probably playing all games at Reliant. (Possibly not even an option anyway. Texas Southern has agreed to figure out a deal with the local soccer team to build a new stadium that they would share. Who knows the planned capacity?) As their fan base and target markets are different from UH and Rice, I think they could hit the FBS solid 20-30k a game average like Houston and Rice do for football and frankly they could become a basketball power as there is not one currently in Houston, although A&M is getting close to that.
tSU has plenty of potential, but they aren't even close to being FBS ready. SU, Gram, and Jackson State are the schools they could go now. Those schools have the facilities, tradition and a strong fan base. The only way it would work,is these schools make the jumb with Famu, Tenn. St. and form A HBCU FCS conference.

[SUjagTILLiDIE]

The southland has already asked several SWAC schools to join their conference. Those schools turned them down.

[TexasTerror]

tSU has plenty of potential, but they aren't even close to being FCS ready. SU, Gram, and Jackson State are the schools they could go now. Those schools have the facilities, tradition and a strong fan base. The only way it would work,is these schools make the jumb with Famu, Tenn. St. and form A HBCU FCS conference.

Southern and Jackson State do not have the baseball facilities -- that's for sure. Not sure about softball facilities. We all know that baseball and for that matter since they are linked, softball are relatively important sports to conferences in this area.

SU -- you said that SU, Gram and JSU are the only "FCS ready" schools. So, if that's the case -- why are the other schools FCS? xlolx

We already have two HBCU FCS conferences...why do we need FAMU, Tenn St and the SWAC 3 to make a jump up to former an HBCU FCS conference? xlolx

[SUjagTILLiDIE]

Southern and Jackson State do not have the baseball facilities -- that's for sure. Not sure about softball facilities. We all know that baseball and for that matter since they are linked, softball are relatively important sports to conferences in this area.

SU -- you said that SU, Gram and JSU are the only "FCS ready" schools. So, if that's the case -- why are the other schools FCS? xlolx

We already have two HBCU FCS conferences...why do we need FAMU, Tenn St and the SWAC 3 to make a jump up to former an HBCU FCS conference? xlolx
You know it was a typo. SU's baseball stadium is fine, even though there will be upgrades in the near future. Just off the top of my head, Southern Miss and UCLA's stadium's are similar to the Lee Hines. Where is there a seating capacity minimual anywhere in baseball. 1000 seats are fine for Lee Hines.

[McNeese75]

McNeese...Sunbelt or maybe Texas State and UTSA carry them up on their backs to FBS.


xrolleyesx They can't carry their own weight much less Mcneese into FBS xlolx xcoffeex

Classic case of mental masturbation going on here xwhistlex

[FiniteMan]

Blah, blah, blah, blah...blah!

Despite all of this, they have failed to produce in the SWAC. Have you followed their program any outside of providing said facts? Also, have you actually checked their home attendance at Durley? Forget the games at Reliant, those do not count. See their attendance last year? They had 750 for their season finale. Sure, the fans were protesting, but they didn't draw that much better for the other games.

You really don't seem to get that some schools make a ton more sense at the FBS level than they do at the FCS level. Like Texas State, just about every advantage Texas Southern has is not utilized and perhaps even minimized at the FCS level.


Break even? Do you know how many schools in FBS make money? Do you know how many schools in Division I on a whole break even? Get support from their school above what they were supposed to in order to break even? Or better yet, are in the red? I know a program that was $1.5M in debt last year...and I bet none of their fans realize as much.

Very few FBS schools break even, even at the BCS level, but that statement is hugely misleading. The same thing is true at the FCS and DII levels. Atheletics is a loss leader for a university. They expect to lose 2-8M(!) a year on sports with usually football, basketball and occasionally baseball and Hockey being the only break even or profitable sports that might BEGIN to pay for the others.


That doesn't usuially happen though as any football or BB earning are usually immediately reinvested into facilities and coaches salaries. The NCAA attendance guidelines are actually a pretty good guide to what the NCAA thinks should be profitable at the FBS level. And frankly, what could be if a conference's athletic department ran itself like any other university department.


All games at Reliant? That costs a lot and if you are not drawing fans, you are not going to do well in paying that bill. Robertson made no sense for them and that was cheaper. The Dynamo stadium deal will be good, planned capacity is 22-24k.

Thank you for providing the info on Dynamo stadium. That would work. They could play in conference there and then every year alternate playing say UH and A&M in one "home" game at Reliant.


Major PR push? From the same school who can't even update their web site? Last football headline is 2007 "practive" from spring football. Go figure! I could go on...

What they have done marketingwise at the FCS level doesn't impact what they could do at the FBS level. There is simply no correlation there. That is like saying McNeese State is a good FCS school therefore they would be a good FBS school.


And how do you figure they draw more than Houston or Rice? They can't even draw 1/3rd of Houston's draw or 1/2 of Rice's draw. They are going to have to grow quickly...

Rice draws 15-22K. Houston draws 19-30K. If Texas Southern played some Texas and the surrounding area FBS schools in an FBS schedule in a sweet new 22K Dynamo Stadium, I think it is not at all unreasonable to think they might draw 17-18K on average there and possibly sell 75% of their reliant game each year, pushing their average up to UH levels.


And a basketball power? They can't develop that. The facility is nice and better than quite a few, even in the Southland. But, what about baseball and softball? The city park works for those programs? There's 3A programs that have better facilities...

Football and Basketball are the money sports in Texas. Baseball is big at UT, but not so much elsewhere. If Texas Southern was in FBS, I believe they'd be the first HBCU in the nation in FBS (could be wrong on that) --- certainly the only one in Texas. That alone would generate a lot of attention.

Is it so incredibly hard to see an FBS Texas Southern landing a Houston born version of Larry Johnson or Shaquille O'Neal? Some kid who doesn't want to play to enrich a "white" university? Could an all-American caliber player transform Texas Southern into a name BB school? Look at how much Karl Malone enhanced La Tech's reputation for almost 2 decades.

[FiniteMan]

Tenn St. tried to join the SWAC around 99. Former Swac commissioner Rudy Washington turned them down, due to a NCAA investigation.

I did not know that. Thank you.


Tenn St. would be a perfect fit to the SWAC. If you look at their games, the only ones that are well attended are HBCU games and 3 of their 4 historic rivials (Jackson St.,Southern, and Grambling) are in the SWAC with Famu being in the MEAC.

Very fair, but potentially misleading. I can certainly concede the point that looking at the numbers the logic dictates they would be a great SWAC school, but the lack of attendance at the other FCS games could just as easily be due to the fac that Nashville has pro football and FBS football and doesn't give a rat's ass about FCS --- fairly common in larger cities. They might do pretty well as an FBS school. But I'll certainly concede the point that they would do better in the SWAC than the OVC.

[FiniteMan]

tSU has plenty of potential, but they aren't even close to being FBS ready. SU, Gram, and Jackson State are the schools they could go now. Those schools have the facilities, tradition and a strong fan base. The only way it would work,is these schools make the jumb with Famu, Tenn. St. and form A HBCU FCS conference.

There is a big difference between FCS and FBS financial models. FCS is all about butts in the seats. Lower level FBS is a split between seats and TVs.

Frankly, the SWAC and MEAC are the rare FCS schools who can already garner TV money & interest for regular seaon games --- I don't know that upgrading would yeild enough to make it worth the costs.

I specifically mentioned Texas Southern because they are the Texas State/UTSA of the SWAC. The biggest school in the best market which hasn't hit in the FCS level. Best home run potential.

There is no reason for schools like Southern and Grambling to jump.

[FiniteMan]

The southland has already asked several SWAC schools to join their conference. Those schools turned them down.

Was Texas Southern one of them? Which schools? I could see schools like Grambling and Southern turning down the Southland. Being in an HBCU FCS conference maximizes them.

[TexasTerror]

You really don't seem to get that some schools make a ton more sense at the FBS level than they do at the FCS level. Like Texas State, just about every advantage Texas Southern has is not utilized and perhaps even minimized at the FCS level.

Texas Southern has not had the leadership to make things work at the FCS level. They have a great new AD, but they still are lacking some of the basic personnel that would make for a successful FCS program, let alone FBS program. They would have so many more APR problems at the FBS level and they have to get their program clean. We haven't even talked about their lack of a web site -- okay, one that is updated.



What they have done marketingwise at the FCS level doesn't impact what they could do at the FBS level. There is simply no correlation there. That is like saying McNeese State is a good FCS school therefore they would be a good FBS school.

The shortcomings at Texas Southern go beyond marketing. Have you been following the program? They have lacked in so many areas -- wins being amongst them, add in facilities and some of the things we have already discussed on this thread.



Football and Basketball are the money sports in Texas. Baseball is big at UT, but not so much elsewhere. If Texas Southern was in FBS, I believe they'd be the first HBCU in the nation in FBS (could be wrong on that) --- certainly the only one in Texas. That alone would generate a lot of attention.

They would be the first FBS of HBCUs. What FBS conference would take a program like TSU?


Is it so incredibly hard to see an FBS Texas Southern landing a Houston born version of Larry Johnson or Shaquille O'Neal? Some kid who doesn't want to play to enrich a "white" university? Could an all-American caliber player transform Texas Southern into a name BB school? Look at how much Karl Malone enhanced La Tech's reputation for almost 2 decades.

Or was it being in the Southland and Sun Belt? Once they "moved up", their program went south of the border -- where they remain to this day. That women's basketball program is nowhere near where it was, they don't even have a legitimate rivalry in conference. Good thing Karl Malone came through there...


You know it was a typo. SU's baseball stadium is fine, even though there will be upgrades in the near future. Just off the top of my head, Southern Miss and UCLA's stadium's are similar to the Lee Hines. Where is there a seating capacity minimual anywhere in baseball. 1000 seats are fine for Lee Hines.

You are comparing Lee Hines to Southern Miss and UCLA? You feeling alright?

Southern Miss actually has a press box that can handle more than one person. It's got batting cages -- you know, an actual and legit practicing facility to swing the bats -- that are not under an overpass. Comparing Southern to USM would be like comparing Texas Southern to Sam Houston State when it comes to baseball facilities.

[McNeese75]

What they have done marketingwise at the FCS level doesn't impact what they could do at the FBS level. There is simply no correlation there. That is like saying McNeese State is a good FCS school therefore they would be a good FBS school.
.

xrolleyesx

Ergo, Tx State has not been so good as an FCS school so they should be a good FBS School xconfusedx xcoffeex

[FiniteMan]

They would be the first FBS of HBCUs. What FBS conference would take a program like TSU?

Assuming a 22K-24K stadium and an interest to move up, they would likely get a strong look from the sunbelt today, although the belt is at a comfortable 12. Still forcing out NO and adding an FBS school in Houston proper would be possible.



Or was it being in the Southland and Sun Belt? Once they "moved up", their program went south of the border -- where they remain to this day. That women's basketball program is nowhere near where it was, they don't even have a legitimate rivalry in conference. Good thing Karl Malone came through there...

La Tech was brought into the WAC when the WAc was not a joke. They were seriously considered by CUSA for their 12th spot. I think that is pretty good.

[SUjagTILLiDIE]

There is a big difference between FCS and FBS financial models. FCS is all about butts in the seats. Lower level FBS is a split between seats and TVs.

Frankly, the SWAC and MEAC are the rare FCS schools who can already garner TV money & interest for regular seaon games --- I don't know that upgrading would yeild enough to make it worth the costs.

I specifically mentioned Texas Southern because they are the Texas State/UTSA of the SWAC. The biggest school in the best market which hasn't hit in the FCS level. Best home run potential.

There is no reason for schools like Southern and Grambling to jump.
SU already has a Regional TV all sports contract with CST(Coxsports).

[SUjagTILLiDIE]

Texas Southern has not had the leadership to make things work at the FCS level. They have a great new AD, but they still are lacking some of the basic personnel that would make for a successful FCS program, let alone FBS program. They would have so many more APR problems at the FBS level and they have to get their program clean. We haven't even talked about their lack of a web site -- okay, one that is updated.




The shortcomings at Texas Southern go beyond marketing. Have you been following the program? They have lacked in so many areas -- wins being amongst them, add in facilities and some of the things we have already discussed on this thread.




They would be the first FBS of HBCUs. What FBS conference would take a program like TSU?



Or was it being in the Southland and Sun Belt? Once they "moved up", their program went south of the border -- where they remain to this day. That women's basketball program is nowhere near where it was, they don't even have a legitimate rivalry in conference. Good thing Karl Malone came through there...



You are comparing Lee Hines to Southern Miss and UCLA? You feeling alright?

Southern Miss actually has a press box that can handle more than one person. It's got batting cages -- you know, an actual and legit practicing facility to swing the bats -- that are not under an overpass. Comparing Southern to USM would be like comparing Texas Southern to Sam Houston State when it comes to baseball facilities.UCLA baseball facility is around the size of Lee Hines. The only difference is they have chairback seats. I went there last spring when SU was in the MLB Classic. SU actually had more fans @ the game than UCLA that Friday and USC Saturday @ the MLB baseballs Compton facility.