Another PFL / PL Series

[DetroitFlyer]

http://www.davidsonwildcats.com/news/2008/8/4/FB_0804085108.aspx?path=football

Davidson and Georgetown will be playing again in the future. Good news as this has been a very competitive series. Of course I like to see more PFL / PL games. Now we have Dayton and Fordham playing a series, Drake and Lehigh playing a series and Davidson and Georgetown renewing their "rivalry".

How soon till we see more PFL / PL series, and more importantly, who would be the participants?

Personally, I would like to see a Dayton / Holy Cross series in the future....

[DFW HOYA]

Davidson and Georgetown will be playing again in the future. Good news as this has been a very competitive series.

Davidson will apparently be the only PFL team on schedules going forward. Richmond, Howard, and Old Dominion have been added to schedules, along with one Ivy school (Yale)--so much for those multiple Ivy games... xsmhx

If this series remains "very competitive" (read=close) going forward, that may not bode well for beating Richmond, Howard, and Old Dominion.

[LUHawker]

How many other series have been played in the past between PL and PFL. We know about Davidson & G'Town and Dayton-Fordham, but I don't recall any others.

[Go...gate]

How many other series have been played in the past between PL and PFL. We know about Davidson & G'Town and Dayton-Fordham, but I don't recall any others.

Davidson has played Colgate twice (1976 and 1988). They have also played Lehigh, Bucknell, Fordham and, AIR, Lafayette.

[Go...gate]

Davidson will apparently be the only PFL team on schedules going forward. Richmond, Howard, and Old Dominion have been added to schedules, along with one Ivy school (Yale)--so much for those multiple Ivy games... xsmhx

If this series remains "very competitive" (read=close) going forward, that may not bode well for beating Richmond, Howard, and Old Dominion.

I believe Princeton has had some discussions with the Hoyas, according to a friend of mine in PU's athletic dept. PU is mixing up its non-conference opponents a bit, and the current Colgate-Princeton contract runs out, I believe, in 2012, so you guys may be next. My understanding is that Lehigh and Lafayette are on the Tiger schedules for the forseeable future. Apparently, Princeton likes these home-and-home games with LC and LU because road games to Easton and Bethlehem usually do not involve heavy duty bus travel, which makes some sense, I guess. In Georgetown's case, all PU or GU has to do is get on a train top get to the other school's campus!

[Ken_Z]

How soon till we see more PFL / PL series, and more importantly, who would be the participants?



what schools are in the pfl? i cannot answer the question until i know that.

[LUHawker]

[QUOTE=Go...gate;1048546] PU is mixing up its non-conference opponents a bitQUOTE]

I wish the PL teams would mix it up a bit more. Colgate has done a nice job of adding Furman and Coastal Carolina to the usual mix of Ivies and 1-2 NEC teams (also erstwhile SB). Fordham's schedule is weak at best from a mix and interest standpoint (URI, Dayton and Albany are hardly strong draws, particularly packaged together). HC is doing better adding UMass and Harvard. Lehigh occassionally piques my interest. The addition of the 6-year series with Nova was great, the one-off with Delaware in '04 was nice. Liberty and VMI were a change, but not inspiring to see. Drake in '08 is ok, but hardly a marquee match-up. Lafayette is the most boring with the same old same Ivy teams. I like PL-Ivy match-ups but LU, CU and LC need to reduce them to 2 per year, not 3 for LU and CU and 4 for LC. G'Town is creating more interest with ODU, Richmond and Howard, but for Gtown, I don't think the problem is with the opponents, its generating interest in GTown.

Overall the schedules are ok, but they don't create much excitement.

For Lehigh, give me the following:

Keep up the Villanova series
Two Ivies at most - a return of Penn would be great, but a rotation of Harvard, Yale and Princeton is fine too.
1 NEC/PFL
1 annual Intriguing match-up with a Gateway or SoCon team or a rotation of another CAA school.

In a perfect world, Lehigh and Delaware would play at least every other year, but the UD folks won't travel to Bethlehem anymore and I don't think Lehigh should have to travel to UD each time. LU's facilities and setting are superior to UD's.

[danefan]

PFL Schools:

Dayton
San Diego
Davidson
Valparaiso (sp?)
Morehead State
Marist (starts in 2008)
Drake
Butler
Jacksonville

[DFW HOYA]

G'Town is creating more interest with ODU, Richmond and Howard, but for Gtown, I don't think the problem is with the opponents, its generating interest in GTown.

Winning generates interest, and there hasn't been enough of that lately.

Part of the blame lies with Georgetown, and part lies with the PL's policy that says that Georgetown can't recruit some of the same kids that Fordham or Holy Cross could sign tomorrow.

It's an uneven playing (read=recruiting) field, and while that's not the only reason for 1-10, it's a contributing factor.

[LUHawker]

Winning
part lies with the PL's policy that says that Georgetown can't recruit some of the same kids that Fordham or Holy Cross could sign tomorrow.

It's an uneven playing (read=recruiting) field, and while that's not the only reason for 1-10, it's a contributing factor.

I don't disagree that G'Town is affected by its very high AI. However, the higher prestige of the school 'should' mitigate some of that by making it a more attractive option if he can gain admittance.

Also, G'Town knew the rules of the game when it joined the PL so I have little sympathy for this argument.

[DFW HOYA]

Also, G'Town knew the rules of the game when it joined the PL so I have little sympathy for this argument.

The argument is not specific to Georgetown, but here it is again: if the Patriot League seeks an academic index for recruits, it should be consistent across the entire conference, so that a recruit that meets a basic standard choose among any member school for admission.

Why does this concept meet league disapproval?

And how does it help the PL in the long run seeing Georgetown getting run over in games with a diminishing pool of recruits that can realistically be admitted?

[DetroitFlyer]

I don't disagree that G'Town is affected by its very high AI. However, the higher prestige of the school 'should' mitigate some of that by making it a more attractive option if he can gain admittance.

Also, G'Town knew the rules of the game when it joined the PL so I have little sympathy for this argument.


Maybe.... But even in the Ivy League, where one has to think the AI is pretty darn even, there are "dominant" teams and relative doormats....

The PFL does not have an "AI" but one could certainly contrast Morehead State and Dayton. I have not seen many recruits that end up choosing between MSU and UD.... Still, MSU does not dominate the PFL because they can bring kids in that maybe UD would not....

There is something to be said for the combination of institutional support and coaching. It would certainly be an interesting graduate project to examine the long term success of Dayton in an effort to understand how to perform at a high level in a PFL like environment.

[Go...gate]

[QUOTE=Go...gate;1048546] PU is mixing up its non-conference opponents a bitQUOTE]

I wish the PL teams would mix it up a bit more. Colgate has done a nice job of adding Furman and Coastal Carolina to the usual mix of Ivies and 1-2 NEC teams (also erstwhile SB). Fordham's schedule is weak at best from a mix and interest standpoint (URI, Dayton and Albany are hardly strong draws, particularly packaged together). HC is doing better adding UMass and Harvard. Lehigh occassionally piques my interest. The addition of the 6-year series with Nova was great, the one-off with Delaware in '04 was nice. Liberty and VMI were a change, but not inspiring to see. Drake in '08 is ok, but hardly a marquee match-up. Lafayette is the most boring with the same old same Ivy teams. I like PL-Ivy match-ups but LU, CU and LC need to reduce them to 2 per year, not 3 for LU and CU and 4 for LC. G'Town is creating more interest with ODU, Richmond and Howard, but for Gtown, I don't think the problem is with the opponents, its generating interest in GTown.

Overall the schedules are ok, but they don't create much excitement.

For Lehigh, give me the following:

Keep up the Villanova series
Two Ivies at most - a return of Penn would be great, but a rotation of Harvard, Yale and Princeton is fine too.
1 NEC/PFL
1 annual Intriguing match-up with a Gateway or SoCon team or a rotation of another CAA school.

In a perfect world, Lehigh and Delaware would play at least every other year, but the UD folks won't travel to Bethlehem anymore and I don't think Lehigh should have to travel to UD each time. LU's facilities and setting are superior to UD's.

I know this is an unpopular position, but I still prefer 3-4 Ivy games a year for Colgate.

[furman94]

Davidson is a pussy! They are in the Socon for everything except FB! Davidson has 1700 undergrads, Wofford has 1350! Wofford used to be NAIA, Davidson is PFL! Why can't they run with the big dogs of the Socon in FB,if we have to run with them in Basketball? STEP UP!

[LUHawker]

The argument is not specific to Georgetown, but here it is again: if the Patriot League seeks an academic index for recruits, it should be consistent across the entire conference, so that a recruit that meets a basic standard choose among any member school for admission.

Why does this concept meet league disapproval?

And how does it help the PL in the long run seeing Georgetown getting run over in games with a diminishing pool of recruits that can realistically be admitted?

I am not opposed to a more "level" (even if it isn't exactly the same for all schools) playing field for recruiting.

Also, I'm sure the league isn't looking to see GTown flounder year-in and year-out, but keep in mind it is only a football associate member and I suspect officials only concern themselves up the point where the PL keeps GTown in the league.

[Model Citizen]

How many other series have been played in the past between PL and PFL. We know about Davidson & G'Town and Dayton-Fordham, but I don't recall any others.


Strictly speaking...that is counting schools actually in the PFL and Patriot when games were played ...I think the Patriot leads the PFL 8-4.

Towson is 3-0 over Dayton and Drake. Georgetown is 5-1 over San Diego, Butler, and Davidson.

San Diego is 2-0 over Holy Cross. :)

Dayton is 1-0 over Fordham.

[Texcat34]

We're working on it. It's expensive. We're not pu$$ies. The Palladins are miserable at hoops. I'd rather go to the Elite 8 in basketball than finish 3rd to the last in the SoCon in football. However, if the school allowed the former football players to have our way it would already be a done deal. We have given money to expand the locker rooms, stadium, scoreboard, and built a nice new weight room in the last few years. We'd all love to rejoin the SoCon, take our lumps and give it a shot. We're evidently playing the Citadel and Elon in the next few seasons to gauge our program's progress. We were supposed to play App State last year, the week after they beat Michigan, but they didn't meet our $ demand and thank God we backed out and allowed Lenoir Rhyne to be the sacrificial lamb. We did beat Lenoir-Rhyne the following week..probably because App State injured their entire team for us.

Does anyone anticipate the SoCon breaking up eventually with the money/student body size/academic discrepancies between Furman/Wofford/Citadel/Elon/Samford/Davidson and UNC-G/App State/UT-Chattanooga/Western Carolina (and possibly UNC-Charlotte or Georgia State someday), etc? Will the smaller schools or bigger schools every break off and go there separate ways and form different football playing leagues? It would seem that is more likely than Davidson ever becoming (or being invited as) a football-playing only member of the Patriot League (like Georgetown). I've heard conjecture about this and wanted to know everyone's thoughts.

The Pioneer League is a great conference for Davidson for now and highly competitive, but considering our long affiliation with the SoCon in all other sports it would be nice if the administration would allow us to man up, take our lumps, and give it another shot. Although I like the Pioneer League (no offense to any other PFL members on here), we have a lot more in common with the Woffords/Furmans/Elons of the world than Campbell, Jacksonville, Univ. of San Diego, Marist etc. If Wofford can have success and finance scholarships and graduate players then why can't we? There are really no excuses...except that our professors hate athletics. The program is in a lot better shape now than it was the last time we were in the SoCon (although we don't offer football scholarships, we do have the new "no loan" policy) as well as our brief stint in the Patriot League (the dark years of Davidson football when the administration tried to kill the program).

Of course, the success of our basketball team puts a crimp in a lot of these realignment plans...not that I'm complaining. Anyway, I've been a long time reader (but I never post, although I cringe at the constant ***** talking about Davidson Football and the Pioneer League from our fellow SoCon members...thanks, we appreciate it,) of this site and wanted to know everyone's thoughts...if they care, which they probably don't.

[Model Citizen]

SoCon would be good if the money's there.

[Fordham]

The argument is not specific to Georgetown, but here it is again: if the Patriot League seeks an academic index for recruits, it should be consistent across the entire conference, so that a recruit that meets a basic standard choose among any member school for admission.

Why does this concept meet league disapproval?

And how does it help the PL in the long run seeing Georgetown getting run over in games with a diminishing pool of recruits that can realistically be admitted?
I certainly understand it and empathize with the argument and would be making it, likely louder than you, myself if the roles were reversed.

The risk I see for Fordham, though, is that you could have a scenario where (depending on where the AI finally settles) Fordham might have to recruit kids who are academically stronger than the rest of the Fordham student body.

Even if that extreme case didn't take place you would still by definition have a scenario where everything flip flopped and Georgetown would now have the greatest potential deviation between its football players and the rest of the student body. Part of the reason for having a school specific AI, I thought, was to have the players at Fordham be as representative as the students there and the same for G-town and so on.

Again, I'm not trying to say that a problem doesn't exist with the current set up (and you guys are clearly negatively effected the most by it) but any solution to the AI problem is still going to be picking inequities and therefore winners and losers.

Signed,

A voice from the other end of the PL Academic Rankings

[Go...gate]

We're working on it. It's expensive. We're not pu$$ies. The Palladins are miserable at hoops. I'd rather go to the Elite 8 in basketball than finish 3rd to the last in the SoCon in football. However, if the school allowed the former football players to have our way it would already be a done deal. We have given money to expand the locker rooms, stadium, scoreboard, and built a nice new weight room in the last few years. We'd all love to rejoin the SoCon, take our lumps and give it a shot. We're evidently playing the Citadel and Elon in the next few seasons to gauge our program's progress. We were supposed to play App State last year, the week after they beat Michigan, but they didn't meet our $ demand and thank God we backed out and allowed Lenoir Rhyne to be the sacrificial lamb. We did beat Lenoir-Rhyne the following week..probably because App State injured their entire team for us.

Does anyone anticipate the SoCon breaking up eventually with the money/student body size/academic discrepancies between Furman/Wofford/Citadel/Elon/Samford/Davidson and UNC-G/App State/UT-Chattanooga/Western Carolina (and possibly UNC-Charlotte or Georgia State someday), etc? Will the smaller schools or bigger schools every break off and go there separate ways and form different football playing leagues? It would seem that is more likely than Davidson ever becoming (or being invited as) a football-playing only member of the Patriot League (like Georgetown). I've heard conjecture about this and wanted to know everyone's thoughts.

The Pioneer League is a great conference for Davidson for now and highly competitive, but considering our long affiliation with the SoCon in all other sports it would be nice if the administration would allow us to man up, take our lumps, and give it another shot. Although I like the Pioneer League (no offense to any other PFL members on here), we have a lot more in common with the Woffords/Furmans/Elons of the world than Campbell, Jacksonville, Univ. of San Diego, Marist etc. If Wofford can have success and finance scholarships and graduate players then why can't we? There are really no excuses...except that our professors hate athletics. The program is in a lot better shape now than it was the last time we were in the SoCon (although we don't offer football scholarships, we do have the new "no loan" policy) as well as our brief stint in the Patriot League (the dark years of Davidson football when the administration tried to kill the program).

Of course, the success of our basketball team puts a crimp in a lot of these realignment plans...not that I'm complaining. Anyway, I've been a long time reader (but I never post, although I cringe at the constant ***** talking about Davidson Football and the Pioneer League from our fellow SoCon members...thanks, we appreciate it,) of this site and wanted to know everyone's thoughts...if they care, which they probably don't.

Looks like the SoCon has a lot of the same challenges the CAA has.

I, for one, was very happy to have Davidson in the PL and many of us who were around at the football league's beginning are sorry you guys did not stay, though I must say they handed Vic Gatto an impossible task in those days. You were a terrific institutional fit for our league.

[furman94]

We're working on it. It's expensive. We're not pu$$ies. The Palladins are miserable at hoops. I'd rather go to the Elite 8 in basketball than finish 3rd to the last in the SoCon in football. However, if the school allowed the former football players to have our way it would already be a done deal. We have given money to expand the locker rooms, stadium, scoreboard, and built a nice new weight room in the last few years. We'd all love to rejoin the SoCon, take our lumps and give it a shot. We're evidently playing the Citadel and Elon in the next few seasons to gauge our program's progress. We were supposed to play App State last year, the week after they beat Michigan, but they didn't meet our $ demand and thank God we backed out and allowed Lenoir Rhyne to be the sacrificial lamb. We did beat Lenoir-Rhyne the following week..probably because App State injured their entire team for us.

Does anyone anticipate the SoCon breaking up eventually with the money/student body size/academic discrepancies between Furman/Wofford/Citadel/Elon/Samford/Davidson and UNC-G/App State/UT-Chattanooga/Western Carolina (and possibly UNC-Charlotte or Georgia State someday), etc? Will the smaller schools or bigger schools every break off and go there separate ways and form different football playing leagues? It would seem that is more likely than Davidson ever becoming (or being invited as) a football-playing only member of the Patriot League (like Georgetown). I've heard conjecture about this and wanted to know everyone's thoughts.

The Pioneer League is a great conference for Davidson for now and highly competitive, but considering our long affiliation with the SoCon in all other sports it would be nice if the administration would allow us to man up, take our lumps, and give it another shot. Although I like the Pioneer League (no offense to any other PFL members on here), we have a lot more in common with the Woffords/Furmans/Elons of the world than Campbell, Jacksonville, Univ. of San Diego, Marist etc. If Wofford can have success and finance scholarships and graduate players then why can't we? There are really no excuses...except that our professors hate athletics. The program is in a lot better shape now than it was the last time we were in the SoCon (although we don't offer football scholarships, we do have the new "no loan" policy) as well as our brief stint in the Patriot League (the dark years of Davidson football when the administration tried to kill the program).

Of course, the success of our basketball team puts a crimp in a lot of these realignment plans...not that I'm complaining. Anyway, I've been a long time reader (but I never post, although I cringe at the constant ***** talking about Davidson Football and the Pioneer League from our fellow SoCon members...thanks, we appreciate it,) of this site and wanted to know everyone's thoughts...if they care, which they probably don't.

Keep up with Socon football much texcat? I hope you're not jabbing at FU with that 3rd to last comment xnonox. I repect your basketball program and university, so you should do some reading upon Furman Football to realize that we DO NOT finish 3rd to last...EVER! xnonono2x

Thanks !

xpeacex

[Texcat34]

Looks like the SoCon has a lot of the same challenges the CAA has.

I, for one, was very happy to have Davidson in the PL and many of us who were around at the football league's beginning are sorry you guys did not stay, though I must say they handed Vic Gatto an impossible task in those days. You were a terrific institutional fit for our league.

Thank you, on paper it is a great fit but at the time the administration nearly ruined our athletic program. If we had given it an honest effort back then I think we would still be a member. I guess we will just resume our budding football rivalry with Georgetown in the meantime. My coach from 1997-1999 was actually Tim Landis, head coach of the Bucknell Bison. He has extremely strong ties to Davidson and his former Def. Coordinator (and good friend) is currently our head coach, I can't believe they haven't tried to schedule a game yet.

furman94, yes, I'm an avid fan of SoCon football (and root for all of you to do well despite your collective hatred of us) and I'm well aware of the great success of Furman's football program (and historic a$$ kicking of ours). Yes, it was a subtle jab to get under your thin SoCon skin since in 2007, in fact the Palladins finished 3rd to last and escaped the cellar by edging out Chattanooga and Western Carolina. Even great SoCon powers are permitted an occasional off year, correct? Someday, I would love nothing more than to tailgate down in Grunnnville, SC with a bunch of Wildcat and Palladin fans before a kickoff. Perhaps with Davidson's new president it will happen someday.

And, Davidson is a College, not a University.

[furman94]

Um, we were tied for third! Grunnnville? WTF?

[Texcat34]

furman94, you misinterpretation and lack of comprehension of sarcasm in my posts makes me feel like I'm accidentally writing in Mandarin Chinese or something.

Did I read this incorrectly?

http://www.sportsline.com/collegefootball/standings/conference/SOUTH

I may have as I can't remember who won the head to head matchups last season...but Furman was 4-3 in the SoCon along with the Citadel, Ga Southern, Elon, yet they were all 7-4 and the Palladins were 6-5 for the year. At first glance it looked as if Furman was "third to last" but you seem so passionate about your position that I will go ahead and say that I'm an idiot and was wrong.

"Grunnville" is how a lot of people from South Carolina pronounce the city of "Greenville", that is all, I thought everyone knew that. Our back and forth posting will go along much smoother if you stop assuming everything I say is a personal attack or that I'm serious all the time. This is a message board not an f-ing court room or political debate.

Ok, so, I was not kidding, according to sources at our athletic department we are playing the Citadel and Elon in 2009 and 2010, I'm not sure who comes first. Do you think we are idiots and should continue playing Lenoir Rhyne, UNC-Pembroke, etc. non-conference or could we garner some respect if it we can somehow keep it within, oh I don't know 60 points or so?

[furman94]

Refer to my post in the UNC-G topic! TRUCE!

I'm sorry, I was a little fumed and had a bad day at work.

CHILL! Stick around, we'd love to have some Davidson input on AGS; but if you do, grow some thicker skin and be ready for the smack! xsmiley_wix

Thanks!

Oh, and I'd never heard the Grunnnville term before! Thanks for filling me in!

[Texcat34]

No problem dude. 'If it's not Scottish...it's craaaaaap!!!!"

[Go...gate]

furman94, you misinterpretation and lack of comprehension of sarcasm in my posts makes me feel like I'm accidentally writing in Mandarin Chinese or something.

Did I read this incorrectly?

http://www.sportsline.com/collegefootball/standings/conference/SOUTH

I may have as I can't remember who won the head to head matchups last season...but Furman was 4-3 in the SoCon along with the Citadel, Ga Southern, Elon, yet they were all 7-4 and the Palladins were 6-5 for the year. At first glance it looked as if Furman was "third to last" but you seem so passionate about your position that I will go ahead and say that I'm an idiot and was wrong.

"Grunnville" is how a lot of people from South Carolina pronounce the city of "Greenville", that is all, I thought everyone knew that. Our back and forth posting will go along much smoother if you stop assuming everything I say is a personal attack or that I'm serious all the time. This is a message board not an f-ing court room or political debate.

Ok, so, I was not kidding, according to sources at our athletic department we are playing the Citadel and Elon in 2009 and 2010, I'm not sure who comes first. Do you think we are idiots and should continue playing Lenoir Rhyne, UNC-Pembroke, etc. non-conference or could we garner some respect if it we can somehow keep it within, oh I don't know 60 points or so?

Davidson was playing Penn, Princeton and Dartmouth in the 1980's. I would hazard a guess that the Ivies would still like to play the Wildcats. I hope you re-engage opponents up this way. I'm old enough to remember when Gordon Slade was the DC QB and you went to the Tangerine (now Outback) Bowl, so the program is capable of success. It will simply take, as you have said, a greater institutional commitment.