Matthews - CAA Needs Two Autos or Downsize the League!

[danefan]

Courtesy of RoanokeDuke:

http://www.dnronline.com/sports_details.php?AID=30082&CHID=3

Some snippets:



"I don't really know what we're trying to accomplish having that many teams," James Madison coach Mickey Matthews said this week. "It puts everyone at a huge disadvantage. Given the present system, we're just hurting ourselves."



"There's been a lot of internal talk about the league splitting and if people want to stay together," Matthews said. "To me, it's obvious if you keep adding teams, you can't keep adding teams till we have a 20-team league. Some tough decisions have to be made."



The CAA could separate north from south, the way it aligns its divisions. That is a configuration that Matthews, a former assistant at Georgia, thinks has some benefits.

"The best leagues are always regional leagues," Matthews said. "That's why the SEC is always good. I think we need to take a look at that. When I was at Georgia, we took very few plane rides."



Looks like its not just message board fodder anymore. Matthews has confirmed internal talks amongst CAA members.

[smallcollegefbfan]

Courtesy of RoanokeDuke:

http://www.dnronline.com/sports_details.php?AID=30082&CHID=3

Some snippets:

Looks like its not just message board fodder anymore. Matthews has confirmed internal talks amongst CAA members.

Interesting stuff. I love how Matthews tells the truth and doesn't sugar coat.

[bluehenbillk]

The CAA is already a multi-bid league. Seriously since UD joined in the late 80's how many times has the CAA/A-10 not received 2 or more bids??

[BeauFoster]

Two autobids is an impossible scenario. The CAA should split, or have a championship game to determine a real champ. The most logical would be a true split.

[danefan]

The CAA is already a multi-bid league. Seriously since UD joined in the late 80's how many times has the CAA/A-10 not received 2 or more bids??


Same thing I was thinking. While not set in stone, has it ever happened where both the North and South division winners did not go to the playoffs?

[Rob Iola]

Luv the CAA just the way it is - annually playing the same teams in one's division and then biannually playing each of the teams in the other division - consistently some of the best match-ups in FCS. And equally consistently, the 8-3 teams get rewarded with a playoff bid by the committee. The only problem with the league is that it's very difficult to achieve the 10-1 record usually necessary for a seed...

[aceinthehole]

I reposted this from the other thread.


Let's be honest here, even though the CAA only has one official autobid, isn't it safe to say it already has 2?

When is the last time the CAA/A-10 only put one team in? Why stop at 2 anyway the league should have 3-4 in this year.

I agree with you and I just don't get Matthews point. Both CAA "division champs" will be in the playoffs regardless of a second AQ.

The real issue is how many at-large bids are the NCAA willing to give one conference. This is no different than what the Big East was facing regarding the men's hoop tourney. It may work out, it might not. Its too early to speculate how the committee will consider the merits of a multiple 8-3 CAA teams.

(Yes, I know conference affiliation is not supposed to matter when selecting at-large teams, but we all know that the committie might have hesitations by awarding 6 at-lage bids to the CAA.)

[jcf5445]

Only twice (1986 and 1990) since Delaware joined in 1986 has this conference not gotten multiple bids. Since the divisional format started in 2004, both division champions have reached the playoffs every year.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

xlolx xlolx xlolx

The fans on here continue to continue to delude themselves into thinking that a gargantuan CAA isn't a problem. The CAA commissioner has acknowledged that it's a problem* I mean challenge, while now Mickey Matthews and Rocky Hager have weighed in as well. Need any more evidence that folks in high places don't think 'things are fine the way they are' and that a CAA where there is no true champion is perfectly OK and that CAA teams only really 'play for a national championship'?

xlolx xlolx xlolx

Of course, that won't stop anyone on AGS. You can already see the thread and the denials that it's not really a problem. 'Gee, we don't need autobids.' 'Gee, we don't need champions.' 'Gee, Georgia State would have to fly anyway, even with gas at six bucks a gallon.' 'Gee, playing Delaware at home in the CAA North every seven years is worth it.' Precious stuff!

xlolx xlolx xlolx

[WUTNDITWAA]

Everybody in the CAA makes the playoffs anyway. Seriously since UD joined in the late 80's how many times has the CAA/A-10 not gotten every team in the playoffs?

Fixed it for you.xsmiley_wix

[MplsBison]

CAA fans are worse than Big East fans when it comes to being anti-split.


It's guaranteed to happen, so just pipe down.

[JMU2K_DukeDawg]

Mpls - really, are you kidding? There are a lot of schools' fans who think the CAA should break up. I personally would like to see some kind of realignment in the near future.

It seems to me that Delaware fans, for better or worse, are the ones that are most anti-change. They love their alignment with the southern schools and they get their annual rivalry game with Villanova. Anything to disrupt this happy tradition freaks them out. No school seems more poised for FBS and yet more anti going FBS than Delaware.

JMU is a mixed bag with our fans. Many love the regional nature to playing in the CAA, while others want to move up.

Maine and maybe URI/Northeastern have some preferences to a more northern league.

UMass is like Delaware in the North. No likelihood for Big East, no desire for the MAC. They are happy where they are, although the additional southern schools are getting to be too much for many northern schools, understandably.

W&M is unlikely to ever want a move up, although they along with UR and Delaware have the most financially viable way to make a move up.

UR is downsizing - will someone please stop them from moving backwards before they end up DII? Ok, basketball will never let that happen.

ODU may have bigger aspirations. They need to play a game first. Same goes for GSU.

Ugh... too many reasons for staying, for leaving, for breaking it up.... only time will tell, but history teaches us that the Yankee Conference / A10 / CAA is not a static entity when it comes to football. Basketball is likely to be the reason for delaying any splits among schools such as Northeastern and Georgia State.

I'm tired... xconfusedx

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

xlolx xlolx xlolx

The fans on here continue to continue to delude themselves into thinking that a gargantuan CAA isn't a problem. The CAA commissioner has acknowledged that it's a problem* I mean challenge, while now Mickey Matthews and Rocky Hager have weighed in as well. Need any more evidence that folks in high places don't think 'things are fine the way they are' and that a CAA where there is no true champion is perfectly OK and that CAA teams only really 'play for a national championship'?

xlolx xlolx xlolx

Of course, that won't stop anyone on AGS. You can already see the thread and the denials that it's not really a problem. 'Gee, we don't need autobids.' 'Gee, we don't need champions.' 'Gee, Georgia State would have to fly anyway, even with gas at six bucks a gallon.' 'Gee, playing Delaware at home in the CAA North every seven years is worth it.' Precious stuff!

xlolx xlolx xlolx

Nobody is deluding themselves. I'll be the first to admit it isn't perfect, but no one, especially yourself, has provided an option that is better. But everybody would rather just sit back and roll out little snippets about costs and not crowning a true champion. Remind me again about how perfect things are in the Patriot with less than six all sports members playing football.

And if anybody bothered to read the entire article, they'd see that it isn't as one sided as the quotes posted. BTW, when was Mickey Mathews ever viewed as the voice of reason? xrolleyesx

Chuck, as a budding journalist I have higher expectations for you. Sorry, but you're no longer just another alum posting on a message board. You have an agenda and refuse to waver from it despite what others post. Rather than continue to participate in the discussion in the other thread you'd rather jump into this one and post your usual rhetoric. You lose credibility with me with every occurrence of this behavior. xnonox

[appfan2008]

i think a simple mason dixon or so split would be great but honestly hasnt this been talked about enough on here?

[93henfan]

i think a simple mason dixon or so split would be great but honestly hasnt this been talked about enough on here?

That works for everyone but Delaware, since we are north, south, and east of the Mason Dixon line, depending on which part of it you refer to.xreadx

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6d/Mason-dixon-line.gif

[WrenFGun]

I'll second UNH_Alums comments...present a viable solution or don't say anything at all.

[grayghost06]

I doubt we'll see anything happen before the Big East makes their move regarding the football playing schools/ basketball schools. There could be natural attrition to the CAA in 4-5 years with current members either moving up ( FBS ) or switching conferences ( CAA members+NEC schools forming an America East football conference)). Such moves alone would bring the current CAA down to a more manageable size.
Simply put, it would be folly to do anything to the CAA right now. Do you really think W&M is going to want to align itself w/ a scaled down version of the league that includes JMU, UD, ODU and GSU...all of which have the potential, if not interest in moving up to FBS ball? This will all shake out when the Big East re-aligns. Schools from Conf. USA will move to fill that void, Sun Belt schools and perhaps some CAA schools will fill the Conference USA void w/ other CAA schools perhaps choosing to align w/ the Sun Belt. If the CAA were to proactively split into two separate leagues now, there exists the possibility that both new leagues would be severely crippled when all this shakes out. If they wait to see how current member schools are thinking in 4-5 years, they can formulate a plan to keep the remaining schools under a CAA umbrella. CAA football, because of their current size, certainly has some wiggle romm to weather some defections.
My guess is that anywhere from 1-3 CAA schools will choose to move up & 1-2 will choose to re-align w/ a northern conference. So you'll have anywhere from 9-12 schools still playing CAA football.

[WMTribe90]

Take anything Matthews says witha grain of salt. Two autobids....xlolx xlolx

[89Hen]

Need any more evidence that folks in high places don't think 'things are fine the way they are' and that a CAA where there is no true champion is perfectly OK and that CAA teams only really 'play for a national championship'?
I hate the 12 team format let alone a potential 14 team one, but I don't think the "true champion" is an issue. The CAA is a multi-bid league. Everyone who is tied for the title will get a bid. We don't need a "true champion". Does the OVC crown a true champion? AFAIK, TSU's schedule deal means that they all don't play each other. And they are sometimes a one bid league where crowning a "true champion" is rather important.

[danefan]

Take anything Matthews says witha grain of salt. Two autobids....xlolx xlolx

I posted this in the other CAA thread but why could you have two official leagues with a scheduling agreement? CAANorth & CAASouth?

CAANorth:
UNH
UMass
URI
Northeastern
Hofstra
Maine
Albany
Stony Brook

CAASouth:
Delaware
Richmond
JMU
W&M
Towson
'Nova
Ga.St.
ODU

Italics indicate teams added in 2012 season.

Both leagues run by CAA admins. Scheduling agreement very similar to what is in place now (rotating cross-league "OOC" games).
Both leagues would be immediatly eligible for an AQ.

[OL FU]

Quote:

"I don't really know what we're trying to accomplish having that many teams," James Madison coach Mickey Matthews said this week. "It puts everyone at a huge disadvantage. Given the present system, we're just hurting ourselves."

xeyebrowx How many CAA teams went to the playoffs last yearxconfusedx

[ChickenMan]

Quote:


xeyebrowx How many CAA teams went to the playoffs last yearxconfusedx

not enough... :p

[ur2k]

W&M is unlikely to ever want a move up, although they along with UR and Delaware have the most financially viable way to make a move up.

UR is downsizing - will someone please stop them from moving backwards before they end up DII? Ok, basketball will never let that happen.


I'm tired... xconfusedx

The only thing UR is downsizing is the stadium which will be a big improvement over what stands now. A state-of-the-art smaller stadium on campus will be a huge improvement over the current UR stadium which is a POS. Smaller - yes but smaller was the only way to get it built on campus. UR - as a small private school with less than 3,000 students is well situated in the FCS (I-AA) competing at a higher level and getting better recruits than at any point in the 12 years that I've been following Richmond football. Where's the fall to DII happening?

[89Hen]

Both leagues run by CAA admins. Scheduling agreement very similar to what is in place now (rotating cross-league "OOC" games).
Both leagues would be immediatly eligible for an AQ.
Not sure that's even legal, but I don't think I'd like having 6 all-sport members in one division and only 2 in the other. xpeacex

[89Hen]

not enough... :p
Agreed. They should have just had all 12 and left the field at that. xnodx

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

I doubt we'll see anything happen before the Big East makes their move regarding the football playing schools/ basketball schools. There could be natural attrition to the CAA in 4-5 years with current members either moving up ( FBS ) or switching conferences ( CAA members+NEC schools forming an America East football conference)). Such moves alone would bring the current CAA down to a more manageable size.
Simply put, it would be folly to do anything to the CAA right now. Do you really think W&M is going to want to align itself w/ a scaled down version of the league that includes JMU, UD, ODU and GSU...all of which have the potential, if not interest in moving up to FBS ball? This will all shake out when the Big East re-aligns. Schools from Conf. USA will move to fill that void, Sun Belt schools and perhaps some CAA schools will fill the Conference USA void w/ other CAA schools perhaps choosing to align w/ the Sun Belt. If the CAA were to proactively split into two separate leagues now, there exists the possibility that both new leagues would be severely crippled when all this shakes out. If they wait to see how current member schools are thinking in 4-5 years, they can formulate a plan to keep the remaining schools under a CAA umbrella. CAA football, because of their current size, certainly has some wiggle romm to weather some defections.
My guess is that anywhere from 1-3 CAA schools will choose to move up & 1-2 will choose to re-align w/ a northern conference. So you'll have anywhere from 9-12 schools still playing CAA football.


Not sure that's even legal, but I don't think I'd like having 6 all-sport members in one division and only 2 in the other. xpeacex

Feel free to juggle it to have four in each division because Danefan's proposal is significantly better than anything else tossed out here. And it keeps together all the schools likely to not move on when all the conference affiliation stuff that grayghost alludes to hits the fan. I'd coordinate a fundraising drive to obtain money to offset any increased travel expenses for UNH. Most of the other proposals I've seen will result in fewer season ticket holders, lower attendance and less donations at UNH IMHO.

[Maroon&White]

I posted this in the other CAA thread but why could you have two official leagues with a scheduling agreement? CAANorth & CAASouth?

CAANorth:
UNH
UMass
URI
Northeastern
Hofstra
Maine
Albany
Stony Brook

CAASouth:
Delaware
Richmond
JMU
W&M
Towson
'Nova
Ga.St.
ODU

Italics indicate teams added in 2012 season.

Both leagues run by CAA admins. Scheduling agreement very similar to what is in place now (rotating cross-league "OOC" games).
Both leagues would be immediatly eligible for an AQ.

Why not just have two separate conferences, not both run by the CAA?

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Why not just have two separate conferences, not both run by the CAA?

Probably because America East has consistently failed to bring this CAA North to fruition. And hasn't the A-10 proven to be just an inept. Who else would administer it?

[danefan]

Why not just have two separate conferences, not both run by the CAA?

1. $$$
2. CAA Administration are football people.
3. Who else is going to run it? AEast - suck, A10 - they did a great job when they had the chance, Newbies - who? and what a cost that would be.
4. Continuity of administration with the schools who are all-sports members of the CAA.

[danefan]

Not sure that's even legal, but I don't think I'd like having 6 all-sport members in one division and only 2 in the other. xpeacex


Legality question:

NCAA Definition of a Conference:




3.02.3.3 Member Conference. A member conference is a group of colleges and/or universities that conducts competition among its members and determines a conference champion in one or more sports (in which the NCAA conducts championships or for which it is responsible for providing playing rules for intercollegiate competition), duly elected to conference membership under the provisions of this article (see Constitution 3.3.3). A member conference is entitled to all of the privileges of active members except the right to compete in NCAA championships (see Constitution 3.3.2). Only those conferences that meet specific criteria as competitive and legislative bodies (see Constitutions 3.02.1 and 3.02.2) and minimum standards related to size and division status are permitted to vote on legislation or other issues before the Association.






3.3.1 E ligibility.

3.3.1.1 Conference Competition Requirement.

Conference membership is available to duly elected athletics

conferences of colleges and universities that conduct conference competition and determine a champion in one or more sports in which the Association conducts championships or for which it is responsible for providing playing rules for intercollegiate competition.

3.3.1.2 Composition of Conference.
All of the members of the conference shall be active members of



this Association, except that a conference with 40 or more members may qualify as a member conference if 90 percent of its member institutions are active members of the Association. A conference may retain its membership even if it includes institutions that have been provisional members of the Association for at least one year.
(Revised: 1/11/94 effective 9/2/94)



Seems to fit the definition. I cannot find a definition of a "division" which would be the argument that it is just a division of the CAA.

[Maroon&White]

I just don't see how separating the teams like that will do anything. How would a scheduling agreement work between the North and South? I haven't actually thought it through, so it might make perfect sense if I tried. Just seems that the CAA would be going from 12 to 14 to 16 teams. Some people are concerned about ODU and GSU joining, yet somehow it wouldn't be a problem also adding Stony Brook and Albany? An AQ for both the CAANorth and CAASouth would be an obvious advantage, but as people have pointed out, they pretty much have that now anyways.

[danefan]

I just don't see how separating the teams like that will do anything. How would a scheduling agreement work between the North and South? I haven't actually thought it through, so it might make perfect sense if I tried. Just seems that the CAA would be going from 12 to 14 to 16 teams. Some people are concerned about ODU and GSU joining, yet somehow it wouldn't be a problem also adding Stony Brook and Albany? An AQ for both the CAANorth and CAASouth would be an obvious advantage, but as people have pointed out, they pretty much have that now anyways.


I cannot counter that statement. It is clearly an idea that benefits the current CAA members and, in my example, Albany and Stony Brook.

And additionally a 16 team CAA with Albany in it is fine with me. It essentially has the same effect as my example, because the winner of each division is going to the playoffs no matter what.

I just don't see anyone going for a 16 team conference.

[Hansel]

matthews just likes to complain

[Maroon&White]

I cannot counter that statement. It is clearly an idea that benefits the current CAA members and, in my example, Albany and Stony Brook.

And additionally a 16 team CAA with Albany in it is fine with me. It essentially has the same effect as my example, because the winner of each division is going to the playoffs no matter what.

I just don't see anyone going for a 16 team conference.

I was more questioning why two CAA conferences of 8 each, would be better then what will be a 14 team CAA. All I see it doing is adding 2 more teams to an already large conference. I can see it helping Albany and Stony Brook, but why else?

[danefan]

I was more questioning why two CAA conferences of 8 each, would be better then what will be a 14 team CAA. All I see it doing is adding 2 more teams to an already large conference. I can see it helping Albany and Stony Brook, but why else?

For one it avoids forcing either ODU or G.St. into the North Division of a 14 team CAA.

And it helps Albany.xsmiley_wix xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx

Honesty.

[Maroon&White]

For one it avoids forcing either ODU or G.St. into the North Division of a 14 team CAA.

And it helps Albany.xsmiley_wix xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx

Honesty.

I would not mind seeing a conference as the one you described for the CAANorth, with Maine, UNH, NU, URI, UMass, Albany, Hofstra and Stony Brook. But I fail to see how having them part of the CAA helps the conference as a whole. The CAA South would still have to fly to every GSU game, so why not have them join the CAA North (minus Albany and Stony Brook). And being part of the same conference, cross scheduling between North and South would happen, which I can't imagine being much different then now. Just more confusing with 2 extra teams in Stony Brook and Albany.

[IndianaAppMan]

Can someone fill me in as to why Ga. State chose to join the CAA. Regionally speaking, the Big South, SoCon, and even the OVC would seem to make much more sense.

Is there any possibility that Ga. State would jet the CAA for any of those conferences?

Obviously, ODU seems to be a natural, regional fit in the CAA.

Thanks!

[danefan]

Can someone fill me in as to why Ga. State chose to join the CAA. Regionally speaking, the Big South, SoCon, and even the OVC would seem to make much more sense.

Is there any possibility that Ga. State would jet the CAA for any of those conferences?

Obviously, ODU seems to be a natural, regional fit in the CAA.

Thanks!

They are an all-sports member of the CAA since 2005 after leaving the Atlantic Suck conference. Not sure why they chose the CAA though.

[andy7171]

Can someone fill me in as to why Ga. State chose to join the CAA. Regionally speaking, the Big South, SoCon, and even the OVC would seem to make much more sense.

Is there any possibility that Ga. State would jet the CAA for any of those conferences?

Obviously, ODU seems to be a natural, regional fit in the CAA.

Thanks!

GA State is an all-sports memeber of the CAA, and was before they started exploring having a football team.

I agree with you though on not fitting geographically. Although it gives a nice presence in Atlanta for recruiting.

[IndianaAppMan]

They are an all-sports member of the CAA since 2005 after leaving the Atlantic Suck conference. Not sure why they chose the CAA though.


GA State is an all-sports memeber of the CAA, and was before they started exploring having a football team.

I agree with you though on not fitting geographically. Although it gives a nice presence in Atlanta for recruiting.

Thanks!

I think that the Big South must've missed a big opportunity there. The SoCon & OVC are relatively established, but having a large research university in Atlanta could have made the conference much more relevant, plus it would have made everyone's travel budgets lighter. Coulda woulda shoulda... ;)

I agree with you about the CAA's advantage in recruiting. I'm sure that has been a boost in many sports.

[Tribe4SF]

I reposted this from the other thread.



I agree with you and I just don't get Matthews point. Both CAA "division champs" will be in the playoffs regardless of a second AQ.

The real issue is how many at-large bids are the NCAA willing to give one conference. This is no different than what the Big East was facing regarding the men's hoop tourney. It may work out, it might not. Its too early to speculate how the committee will consider the merits of a multiple 8-3 CAA teams.

(Yes, I know conference affiliation is not supposed to matter when selecting at-large teams, but we all know that the committie might have hesitations by awarding 6 at-lage bids to the CAA.)

That's ok...we'll just stick with five.xnodx

[bluehenbillk]

Only twice (1986 and 1990) since Delaware joined in 1986 has this conference not gotten multiple bids. Since the divisional format started in 2004, both division champions have reached the playoffs every year.

Well make it only one year,UD's 1st round opponent in 86 was Wm and Mary. Technically they joined the league the next year or two.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

Courtesy of RoanokeDuke:

http://www.dnronline.com/sports_details.php?AID=30082&CHID=3

Some snippets:








Looks like its not just message board fodder anymore. Matthews has confirmed internal talks amongst CAA members.

Agreed. It's like in MLB. As a Yankees fan, it's nice being (2) teams shorter than the National League. But it's unfair to the NL since it adds (2) more teams to compete against for the Wild Card. Even worse, it is harder for the NL Central teams to win the division since they have (6) teams versus, say, the AL West with only 4 teams.

While a CAA split might water down the league, the reality is that a league of UMass, UNH, Maine, URI, Richmond, Albany and Stonybrook would be just fine by me. And the new CAA of Northeastern, Hofstra, Towson, Delaware, JMU, W&M, Georgia St., ODU would be just fine as well. The CAA gets what it wanted all along when it invited NU (full, all-sports sponsorship) and the non-CAA schools get a more regional conference.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Feel free to juggle it to have four in each division because Danefan's proposal is significantly better than anything else tossed out here.


I posted this in the other CAA thread but why could you have two official leagues with a scheduling agreement? CAANorth & CAASouth?

CAANorth:
UNH
UMass
URI
Northeastern
Hofstra
Maine
Albany
Stony Brook

CAASouth:
Delaware
Richmond
JMU
W&M
Towson
'Nova
Ga.St.
ODU

Italics indicate teams added in 2012 season.

Both leagues run by CAA admins. Scheduling agreement very similar to what is in place now (rotating cross-league "OOC" games).
Both leagues would be immediatly eligible for an AQ.

Ever feel like the guy in that FedEx Commercial?

"You just said the same thing I did but I just said...."

"No, I did this."

Brilliant when submitted by danefan, but rubbish when coming from me? Granted, Albany/SB was his idea, but everything else was basically what I proposed.

xlolx

[Jackman]

Well make it only one year,UD's 1st round opponent in 86 was Wm and Mary. Technically they joined the league the next year or two.

William & Mary was accepted into the conference in 1991. Coincidentally, they were the first round opponent of Delaware in '86 and UMass in '90, the two years when we had only one conference representative in the playoffs.

Point being, with the playoffs expanding while the FCS itself sees limited growth, it's difficult to foresee the CAA needing 2 automatics. It's the 1 bid conferences that need AQs. Split us up, and we'll still be competing with each other for those same 3rd to 5th spots, just like we do now. Only instead of the North and South teams occasionally settling it on the field, we'll both replace that game with an easy win and leave it up to the committee to decide which is better.

[Seawolf97]

Ever feel like the guy in that FedEx Commercial?

"You just said the same thing I did but I just said...."

"No, I did this."

Brilliant when submitted by danefan, but rubbish when coming from me? Granted, Albany/SB was his idea, but everything else was basically what I proposed.

xlolx

May need trademarks going forward with some of thisxrulesx

[Keeper]

actually........

the CAA chiefs are working toward 3 six-team divisions with an auto-bid for each division winner........









xsmiley_wix hee hee

[danefan]

Ever feel like the guy in that FedEx Commercial?

"You just said the same thing I did but I just said...."

"No, I did this."

Brilliant when submitted by danefan, but rubbish when coming from me? Granted, Albany/SB was his idea, but everything else was basically what I proposed.

xlolx


That's because I spun it to make the CAA North guys feel like they were really still in the CAA, which includes the hope of still playing at Delaware every 4 years or so.xlolx xlolx xrotatehx xrotatehx

[henfan]

What overwhelming financial/marketing incentive would exist for the CAA to administer another FB league when it can more easily administer a single league under its own conference umbrella? What's the compelling competitive incentive for affiliates to move to the a completely new unbranded conference? How are teams from a proposed northern split (specifically UMaine & UNH) going to fill out their noncon schedules absent agreements with the other CAA schools and what incentives would there be for schools who draw well, like Delaware & JMU to schedule a UMaine, UNH or URI for home-home series?

First of all, there has to be considerable incentive and discontent for league members to even begin taking this stuff seriously.

[bluehenbillk]

So it's settled the CAA has never received only 1 bid from the league's current makeup.

Stony Brook and Albany?? Cmon put down the crack pipe. I don't see ANY current members, even Hofstra who would be the 1st to suggest that, even floating it out there.

[Dane96]

I will make sure I put down the same pipe I smoked AFTER we whupped your asses with ZERO scholarships.

Just sayin'.....

[Dane96]

And for the record...I said two-years ago Hofstra was having financial issues. We shall see what happens.

[Husky Alum]

To answer a couple of questions...

1. Why did Georgia State join the CAA?

Wouldn't you join if you were them and you were asked? Seriously, when the decision to expand came about, the initial request was for NU and UNH - that would have given the CAA the 7 teams it needed for football. NU was approached first, we said "yes, but we'd like a travel partner" The CAA said, "ok, ask UNH". UNH said no. We tried to get BU in with us (believe it or not) and they said no. Then the southern schools in the CAA tried to get the second expansion team to be from the south. From what I remember College of Charleston was the first choice and they said no. I think GSU was added b/c of the Atlanta TV market.

2. What's this I hear about Hofstra's financial problems

I don't think they're problems per se. No one I've talked to associated with HU has insinuated they're in a financial bind. What I've heard is that their coaches are real vocal about the travel time to compete in the CAA for Olympic sports.

3. Why isn't there a Northern FCS Football Conference

Pat Nero (formerly the AD at Maine) was named AD of the AE because he promised AE Football and AE Hockey to the conference membership. His thought was that Albany and SBU would upgrade (done), and that if the AE offered football, Hofstra and NU would come back, hat in hand to the AE for re-admission - if that happened, then URI may follow suit, and UMass may feel the peer pressure to join. Then you add CCSU as an affiliate for football - bam, a nine team football conference.

Small problem, NU and HU won't be coming back any time soon. UMass isn't going to sign up for something like that, and there you go - no AE football. Oh, and there's no guarantee that AE football would get an auto bid.

As for AE Hockey - Boston University won't commit to a conference it doesn't want to be in long term.

[Larryl9797]

I could always see CCSU as a full member of the AE... But Hartford will always CocK block Central Ct. from admission to the AE. I have always felt that the AE is a better fit with its primairly public university system membership as opposed to the NEC Small Private univeristy anyway. But the NEC has made improvments in its status with AQ, 30 Full ride scholarship in football and some big wins by Albany, CCSU.
Until the AE can get a FB program going and match the NEC in football... I woulndnt see a change.

[Husky Alum]

I could always see CCSU as a full member of the AE... But Hartford will always CocK block Central Ct. from admission to the AE. I have always felt that the AE is a better fit with its primairly public university system membership as opposed to the NEC Small Private univeristy anyway. But the NEC has made improvments in its status with AQ, 30 Full ride scholarship in football and some big wins by Albany, CCSU.
Until the AE can get a FB program going and match the NEC in football... I woulndnt see a change.

Hartford can't unilaterally block CCSU. CCSU's academic profile vis a vis the rest of the AE (sans Hartford and perhaps Maine) is what's keeping it out. Now, CCSU's academics are improving, and maybe if the AE decided it really wanted 10 teams, they'd come calling. I honestly think the AE hasn't expanded to 10 for the following reasons:

1. CCSU will always be there if needed.

2. The AE thinks that Hofstra and/or NU may ask for re admission - then CCSU gets in to a 12 team AE, as 11 won't work.

3. There's concern that Boston U will jump at the next best offer, that would give the AE 8 teams.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Hartford can't unilaterally block CCSU. CCSU's academic profile vis a vis the rest of the AE (sans Hartford and perhaps Maine) is what's keeping it out. Now, CCSU's academics are improving, and maybe if the AE decided it really wanted 10 teams, they'd come calling. I honestly think the AE hasn't expanded to 10 for the following reasons:

1. CCSU will always be there if needed.

2. The AE thinks that Hofstra and/or NU may ask for re admission - then CCSU gets in to a 12 team AE, as 11 won't work.

3. There's concern that Boston U will jump at the next best offer, that would give the AE 8 teams.

There has been on-and-off talk about BU joining the Patriot... which would give HC a travel partner and if they ever decided to reinstate football it would be a major bonus. That can't help matters.

I have no idea if Hofstra (rumored) and NU (reported) are really having financial issues, but if they are it is due to their all-sports affiliation with the CAA, right? And that was before $4 a gallon gas. Isn't that what the naysayers said initially about their membership?

Another question about Hofstra: Was there any ill will from 2006 and the CAA leadership when they went something like 23-8 and missed out on the NCAA basketball tournament to George Mason and VCU?

[Husky Alum]

There has been on-and-off talk about BU joining the Patriot... which would give HC a travel partner and if they ever decided to reinstate football it would be a major bonus. That can't help matters.

I have no idea if Hofstra (rumored) and NU (reported) are really having financial issues, but if they are it is due to their all-sports affiliation with the CAA, right? And that was before $4 a gallon gas. Isn't that what the naysayers said initially about their membership?

Another question about Hofstra: Was there any ill will from 2006 and the CAA leadership when they went something like 23-8 and missed out on the NCAA basketball tournament to George Mason and VCU?

NU's issues aren't because of the CAA affiliation. It's due to other institutional issues. We'd have similar problems if we were still in the AE. NU HAS the money, it chooses not to spend it.

Not a person at NU thinks going to the CAA was a bad move - it's the administration's failure to adequately fund athletics for 20 years that's the problem. Now that there's scuttlebut to fund athletics, people want the athletic department to be more self serving. But people don't donate more because the school doesn't fund it more.

It's a Catch 22 with a President who doesn't really care about Athletics the way he claimed he did when he first got on campus.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

To answer a couple of questions...

1. Why did Georgia State join the CAA?

Wouldn't you join if you were them and you were asked? Seriously, when the decision to expand came about, the initial request was for NU and UNH - that would have given the CAA the 7 teams it needed for football. NU was approached first, we said "yes, but we'd like a travel partner" The CAA said, "ok, ask UNH". UNH said no. We tried to get BU in with us (believe it or not) and they said no. Then the southern schools in the CAA tried to get the second expansion team to be from the south. From what I remember College of Charleston was the first choice and they said no. I think GSU was added b/c of the Atlanta TV market.

You are closer to the inner circles at NU than I am at UNH especially since I'm 165 miles away, but I always heard people at UNH talking about GaSt being in the mix with the offer. Might have been an easy scapegoat to say GA just pushed the footprint too far, just don't know.

More than once I've thought that if UNH's football affiliation gets screwed up and negatively impacts the program that they'll rue the day they turned down the CAA. But I have to remember that the decision was pre-Santos when there were many doubts about ever breaking a seven win ceiling again. And I know most people at UNH I spoke with genuinely felt that the A-10 would step up and continue sponsoring football. I don't think anybody foresaw the way things turned out with NU tipping the scales so to speak.

I recall I was in favor of the move because it protected football that IMO even pre-Santos was much more significant that basketball at UNH (and I'm a hoop guy). And I recall losing some objectivity about the move upon reading all the venom on the CAAZone from the folks from the non-football schools. (Ironic how ODU has now switched camps. xrolleyesx )

If that decision could have been made one year later after Santos and Ball exploded onto the scene, the outcome might have been different. If they also saw that the A-10 and Bruno weren't going to provide an option, then the outcome probably would have been different.



3. Why isn't there a Northern FCS Football Conference

Pat Nero (formerly the AD at Maine) was named AD of the AE because he promised AE Football and AE Hockey to the conference membership. His thought was that Albany and SBU would upgrade (done), and that if the AE offered football, Hofstra and NU would come back, hat in hand to the AE for re-admission - if that happened, then URI may follow suit, and UMass may feel the peer pressure to join. Then you add CCSU as an affiliate for football - bam, a nine team football conference.

Small problem, NU and HU won't be coming back any time soon. UMass isn't going to sign up for something like that, and there you go - no AE football. Oh, and there's no guarantee that AE football would get an auto bid.

As for AE Hockey - Boston University won't commit to a conference it doesn't want to be in long term.

The same reasoning that I've used to determine that despite its warts a 14 team CAA is a better football option for UNH than any of the "new Yankees" that are remotely feasible.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Ever feel like the guy in that FedEx Commercial?

"You just said the same thing I did but I just said...."

"No, I did this."

Brilliant when submitted by danefan, but rubbish when coming from me? Granted, Albany/SB was his idea, but everything else was basically what I proposed.

xlolx


That's because I spun it to make the CAA North guys feel like they were really still in the CAA, which includes the hope of still playing at Delaware every 4 years or so.xlolx xlolx xrotatehx xrotatehx

That was the difference DaneFan, they would still be in the CAA. LFN's proposal was for a separate league administered by the CAA which really wasn't feasible, why would the CAA do that? Being a part of the CAA would allow some scheduling of OOC games with the schools from the South. Those OOC games are significantly better than the prospects from any of the feasible "new Yankees".

Not really sure that the CAA would ever expand to 16, but it might depend on where they see their evolution going. If they want to sponsor a league with the more ambitious members, then no. But if they want to administer the league after the shake-ups alluded to by grayghost, then yes they might expand to 16.

Years of watching these dynamics has led me to form the opinion that the only way that a football league with a core of Maine, UNH, Northeastern, URI, UMass, Albany, Stony Brook and Hofstra ever forms is via the CAA. America East has had two opportunities and the A-10 could have done so back in 2003. I just don't see any other leadership in the Northeast that can make it happen.

If the CAA opts for the most ambitious route, I firmly believe that Towson, Hofstra, Northeastern, W&M and Richmond aren't going that route. And I'm pretty sure that Delaware doesn't want to. UMass might and probably will if they can fund it. Don't see URI following suit. Even in this scenario I want UNH to stay involved with as many of these schools as possible to form the league that would naturally evolve. I don't want them tied down and held back by some ill-advised "new Yankee". The same theory comes into play if the CAA opts for the less ambitious route. The same set of schools would naturally evolve into a league.

Besides there are other ways that the CAA could be back to 12 teams in the coming years. I'm willing to take my chances by staying in the 14 team league and let everything play out in the next five years. If nobody moves up/down and/or other CAA all sports members add football, then we'll re-address everything then. To this Wildcat it is the best alternative that I've seen presented.

[McNeeserocket]

i think a simple mason dixon or so split would be great but honestly hasnt this been talked about enough on here?

I am sure what I am about to ask has already been discussed to death, but I don't get the logic of why Georgia State is joining the CAA with their football program. I read where they are already a member of CAA in other sports, but geographically, would not the Southern Conference be a better choice?

I certainly would think the Southern Conference should be looking for new members since both Appst. and Georgia Southern have already let it be known that they are looking to move to FBS in the next 3-5 years.

From a traveling stand point, wouldn't the Southern Conference make more sense than the CAA Conference for all sports?

[Maroon&White]

That's because I spun it to make the CAA North guys feel like they were really still in the CAA, which includes the hope of still playing at Delaware every 4 years or so.xlolx xlolx xrotatehx xrotatehx

Ya, you had us all fooled xrolleyesx

[The Cats]

My vote would be to go for the split. A conference can't continue to add fooball members - and then expect additional autos due to size.

[henfan]

I am sure what I am about to ask has already been discussed to death, but I don't get the logic of why Georgia State is joining the CAA with their football program. I read where they are already a member of CAA in other sports, but geographically, would not the Southern Conference be a better choice?

Yes, it has been discussed ad nauseum. Post #53 sums it up pretty well. (Thanks, Husky!)

The SoCon was never an option for GSU because they were never asked to join. Simple as that. Besides, the expansion profile to which the SoCon has recently aspired has been the small, private southern college with a FB program. GSU certainly is neither private nor small (they are southern though) and they didn't have FB when the CAA extended them an offer of membership. They wanted out of a conference that did not suit them and the CAA, they must have believed, was the best choice available.

[henfan]

My vote would be to go for the split. A conference can't continue to add fooball members - and then expect additional autos due to size.

I'd agree to an extent. The CAA shouldn't expect additional autobids simply because it's the largest conference, but they also shouldn't be denied additional bids if their teams are competitively deserving. As always, that's something the PSC will have to decide each November.

[Husky Alum]

Henfan, you're welcome. I need to get down to The Bob this year when we play y'all in hoops.

Another reason GSU wanted in the CAA was that it is undergoing a tremendous transformation of its campus from a commuter school to a residential school, and wanted the cache' of being associated on an academic level with USNWR Top 100 schools like W&M, UD, NU, and Drexel - and even possibly a JMU, but I'm not sure about their academic profile.

GSU's administration spent many days in Boston talking with NU, because GSU's vision is to turn its campus/school into the type of place NU is now. GSU 2006 was viewed by its administration as NU circa 1990 or Drexel circa 1980 - schools that were very good in certain things, but had somewhat of an identity crisis.

GSU has some fantastic programs (business/accounting), but it wanted to be more well rounded - from what I'm told.

Fact of the matter is that the CAA will not be the same in 2013 than it is today. We'll just have to see where the chips fall, and if auto bids are available for "splinter conferences" that may result from a carve out/realignment/promotion of current CAA schools.

[MplsBison]

GSU is somewhat limited by the fact that GA Tech is right there. In fact, I believe GSU was spun off of GT?

[GannonFan]

Wow, this many pages based upon a yet again bombastic, ill-informed opinion by Mickey "Mouse" Matthews. Guys, he just spouts off everything about anything. He's a good program builder, but as a soundbite guy he's not to be taken very seriously. As has been discussed, the current CAA members have always had 2 teams in the playoffs since 1986 - unless the league falls apart competitively, it will always have at least 2 teams in the playoffs. Heck, with the playoffs enlarging, it'll probably be at least 3 CAA teams in the playoffs every year. Very nice of the committee to give the NEC and the Big South autos and almost de facto giving the CAA a lock on another at large. xthumbsupx

[Longhorn]

GSU wanted...the cache' of being associated on an academic level with USNWR Top 100 schools ... and even possibly a JMU, but I'm not sure about their academic profile.



Okay...consider yourself educated...JMU is the USNWR's top-ranked public comprehensive university in the South...and has been for the past 14 straight years. JMU is most assuredly one of the elite academic institutions in nation, and certainly in the CAA.

[GannonFan]

Okay...consider yourself educated...JMU is the USNWR's top-ranked public comprehensive university in the South...and has been for the past 14 straight years. JMU is most assuredly one of the elite academic institutions in nation, and certainly in the CAA.


First of all, who cares about USNWR's rankings? They're pretty much just a made up measure to begin with. And recently, they've put in so many different categories that pretty much everyone can be considered highly ranked in whatever category they get placed in. Seriously, there are 4 different breakdowns in your above statement (public, comprehensive, university, and in the South). And if JMU is one of the elite institutions in the country, how many schools then meet that criteria? 100, 200, half? Come on, JMU is a nice school, but you have to be the first person to call it "elite".

[bostonspider]

Okay...consider yourself educated...JMU is the USNWR's top-ranked public comprehensive university in the South...and has been for the past 14 straight years. JMU is most assuredly one of the elite academic institutions in nation, and certainly in the CAA.

Past 14 years??? I am pretty sure that is not right as UR only changed classification from the "Master's" category to the National Liberal Arts maybe 4 years ago, and prior to that was #1 in the South since 1991 or something like that.

[URMite]

Past 14 years??? I am pretty sure that is not right as UR only changed classification from the "Master's" category to the National Liberal Arts maybe 4 years ago, and prior to that was #1 in the South since 1991 or something like that.

I think you missed "public". But I agree with the post that there are too many categories. What are there maybe ten schools in many of them? So being top 3 is not as impressive as it should be.

OTOH to be honest I haven't kept up with it that closely in the last few years.

[DFW HOYA]

JMU is the USNWR's top-ranked public comprehensive university in the South...and has been for the past 14 straight years. JMU is most assuredly one of the elite academic institutions in nation, and certainly in the CAA.

How is "public comprehensive university" defined? I'm thinking Virginia, North Carolina, Georgia Tech, etc. would beg to differ...

[Husky Alum]

The point of my statement wasn't to slight JMU (or any other CAA school) from an academic standpoint.

The point was that Georgia State had a chance to join a conference with some of the better non-Ivy/NESCAC/PL schools in the East and it did so to increase its academic profile/perception. When Ga State's representatives came to Boston to talk with NU Admins and alumni (of which I was one), they were thrilled with the chance to be able to say to people "we are in the same conference as William & Mary, Delaware, etc.").

Let's face it, the CAA (and the AE) all have a plethora of very good schools, as do most conferences.

[I-AA Fan]

Bunch of crap. Go ahead and downsize. This is why they did not rank the individual teams this year ...just ranked the halves. Now idiot newspaper people can spread such nonsense. Why doesn't everyone join the CAA, then take the top-16 and put an "N" in front of it...morons.

[SoCon48]

Okay...consider yourself educated...JMU is the USNWR's top-ranked public comprehensive university in the South...and has been for the past 14 straight years. JMU is most assuredly one of the elite academic institutions in nation, and certainly in the CAA.

Umm. They're number 4 Master's-South. xeyebrowx Behind Rollins, Elon, and Stetson.
Consider yourself educated.

[JMU2004]

Umm. They're number 4 Master's-South. xeyebrowx Behind Rollins, Elon, and Stetson.
Consider yourself educated.


Those are private schools bud. Longhorn said top PUBLC. Consider yourself educated.

[aust42]

I've been saying it all along, The CAA will split once G-State and Old D join up. We already have too many teams in the CAA and adding two more teams is not logical for scheduling and crowning a true conference champion. I'll be sorry to see Nova, UMASS and the other non all sports members leave the CAA.

[SoCon48]

Those are private schools bud. Longhorn said top PUBLC. Consider yourself educated.

No category in USNWR for master's South-Public. Master's South. Consider your self educated.

[JMU2004]

No category in USNWR for master's South-Public. Master's South. Consider your self educated.

wrong again cheif....the magazine breaks it down even further, but here is the link for you.

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/brief/univmas_s_pub_brief.php

[danefan]

wrong again cheif....the magazine breaks it down even further, but here is the link for you.

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/brief/univmas_s_pub_brief.php

Consider yourself educated.



Fixed it for you.xrolleyesx

[SoCon48]

wrong again cheif....the magazine breaks it down even further, but here is the link for you.

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/brief/univmas_s_pub_brief.php

Guess if you broke it down into best public universites in Harrisonburg, it would be even higher.xeyebrowx

If you look at the blurb on JMU, it has them ranked as #4 in the South-Master's.
Just don't compare yourself to Virginai Commonwelath. They gave the Richmond Police Chief a bachelor's after taking 2 courses. Can't beat that.

[henfan]

We already have too many teams in the CAA and adding two more teams is not logical for scheduling and crowning a true conference champion.

Like Chuck Burton, you seem to be under the false assumption playing a round-robin conference schedule and "crowning a conference champion" are of utmost importance to the CAA.

The Yankee/A-10/CAA congloration hasn't been interested in playing a round-robin schedule for many years now. In fact, the conference hasn't had less than 11 members since 1993, except for a brief period after UConn's departure (who was subsequently replaced by Hofstra.) The conference is rightfully more concerned about getting as much access to the post-season as possible for its membership.

There's little indication that UMass & VU are going anywhere anytime soon. No need to worry.xpeacex

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Like Chuck Burton, you seem to be under the false assumption playing a round-robin conference schedule and "crowning a conference champion" are of utmost importance to the CAA.

Oh sure... it's of no importance to the CAA Commissioner, CAA athletic directors, CAA head football coaches... all people who have brought it up as an issue... xrolleyesx I mean, what higher authority do you need?

http://clutchmagonline.com/wp-content/uploads/061211_obama_vlrg_3awidec.jpg

I've been asked to weigh in on this issue since henfan refuses to acknowledge the issue... like the CAA athletic directors and coaches have been telling me, splitting the CAA leads us to a BETTER AMERICA!

[bostonspider]

The is a big difference between "utmost importance" and "no importance". All things being equal, a 9 team league with 4 home and 4 away is likely ideal, but that is not going to happen it seems, so the CAA continues with what they have, one of the top FCS Leagues in the country.

[aust42]

Like Chuck Burton, you seem to be under the false assumption playing a round-robin conference schedule and "crowning a conference champion" are of utmost importance to the CAA.

The Yankee/A-10/CAA congloration hasn't been interested in playing a round-robin schedule for many years now. In fact, the conference hasn't had less than 11 members since 1993, except for a brief period after UConn's departure (who was subsequently replaced by Hofstra.) The conference is rightfully more concerned about getting as much access to the post-season as possible for its membership.

There's little indication that UMass & VU are going anywhere anytime soon. No need to worry.xpeacex

I think there is a lot of significance in having a Conference Champion regardless of the post season. Certainly from the players and coaches perspective. Having a 14 team league makes the "Conference Champion" suspect/controversial when you don't play 5 teams in your own conference. It would be unprecedented having that many teams in one league at this level. I'm making an assumption on the CAA eventually splitting. Only time will tell.

[I-AA Fan]

Why does the conference not just drop out of the post-season, have a conference tournament? If you want to split into two completely independent conferences ...fine, do so. However, only the CAA should be the only conference to get an auto-bid; the new conference will have to wait like everyone else to receive possible auto-bid.

[bluehenbillk]

Seems like a lot of penis-envy from Patsy & NEC fans swirling around the CAA here.....

[danefan]

Seems like a lot of penis-envy from Patsy & NEC fans swirling around the CAA here.....

No penis envy here my friend.

pretty clear the CAA is a better league than the NEC. Albany needs to be associated with the CAA North schools officially. Whether that happens by a split or a CAA expansion matters not to me. xpeacex

[bluehenbillk]

No penis envy here my friend.

pretty clear the CAA is a better league than the NEC. Albany needs to be associated with the CAA North schools officially. Whether that happens by a split or a CAA expansion matters not to me. xpeacex


You couldn't have contradicted yourself any clearer. xthumbsupx

[danefan]

You couldn't have contradicted yourself any clearer. xthumbsupx

I guess from a technical definition of envy, yes I did.

But I consider penis envy to mean the type of envy that derives from being insecure with yourself, as opposed to being jealous of another.

I'm not insecure with Albany.
I see there is room to grow and where the program will hopefully go.

Call it whatever you'd like.

[henfan]

The is a big difference between "utmost importance" and "no importance". All things being equal, a 9 team league with 4 home and 4 away is likely ideal, but that is not going to happen it seems, so the CAA continues with what they have, one of the top FCS Leagues in the country.

Exactly. It's silly to suggest the CAA FB championship designation has "no importance"... almost as silly as contining to believe that designating the title through round robin is something valued above other far more important membership issues. Thanks for reading my comments carefully.

Outsiders just don't realize that the conference has survived awarding co-championship designations going back to its very beginnings as the Yankee Conference in the '40's and nearly every year since 1981. There isn't one league official, CEO, AD or coach (even Mickey Matthews) who would sugggest that spinning off the CAA FB affiliates for the sake of round robin play would be a good idea. Not one.xcoffeex

[aust42]

Exactly. It's silly to suggest the CAA FB championship designation has "no importance"... almost as silly as contining to believe that designating the title through round robin is something valued above other far more important membership issues. Thanks for reading my comments carefully.

Outsiders just don't realize that the conference has survived awarding co-championship designations going back to its very beginnings as the Yankee Conference in the '40's and nearly every year since 1981. There isn't one league official, CEO, AD or coach (even Mickey Matthews) who would sugggest that spinning off the CAA FB affiliates for the sake of round robin play would be a good idea. Not one.xcoffeex

I have to respectively disagree. The playoffs certainly are the utmost reward for a good season, but winning your Conference Championship is another goal in itself. That's why they give out Conference Championship rings. Winning your conference is certainly the main goal starting out the season, making the playoffs is 2nd. That was our objective back when I played. If your win your conference the playoffs are a given, if you lose sight of winning the conference then you focus on making the playoffs. A 14 team league is just too many teams to crown a clear Conference Champion. A co-champion is one thing, imagine the crazy tie breaker rules that would come into play when you don't even play 5 teams in your conference. I think it's very important to be able to have a balanced "round robin play" league. This is unprecedented in 1AA, (as far as I know) so it will be interesting to see what happens when it all comes to a head.

[GannonFan]

I have to respectively disagree. The playoffs certainly are the utmost reward for a good season, but winning your Conference Championship is another goal in itself. That's why they give out Conference Championship rings. Winning your conference is certainly the main goal starting out the season, making the playoffs is 2nd. That was our objective back when I played. If your win your conference the playoffs are a given, if you lose sight of winning the conference then you focus on making the playoffs. A 14 team league is just too many teams to crown a clear Conference Champion. A co-champion is one thing, imagine the crazy tie breaker rules that would come into play when you don't even play 5 teams in your conference. I think it's very important to be able to have a balanced "round robin play" league. This is unprecedented in 1AA, (as far as I know) so it will be interesting to see what happens when it all comes to a head.

The thing is, even when some members invariably leave (as they do in every league, whether it be 14 teams or 8 teams - every conference changes over time regardless of size) there's little chance that the CAA will result in a conference size where they can have a true round robin schedule. As another poster said, the Yankee/A10/CAA has almost never had a true round robin format in it's past. Some teams will of course leave (as they will in the Big Sky, Southern, Southland, etc) but you very likely won't see the CAA reduce to 9 teams to allow a true round robin. And we in the CAA will still enjoy our conference despite that. Oh, and the main goal is winning the national title - they give out rings for that too. xpeacex

[Longhorn]

First of all, who cares about USNWR's rankings? They're pretty much just a made up measure to begin with. And recently, they've put in so many different categories that pretty much everyone can be considered highly ranked in whatever category they get placed in. Seriously, there are 4 different breakdowns in your above statement (public, comprehensive, university, and in the South). And if JMU is one of the elite institutions in the country, how many schools then meet that criteria? 100, 200, half? Come on, JMU is a nice school, but you have to be the first person to call it "elite".

xlolx Well, quite a few people care about the rankings, even if you're not one of them. But your laughable comments deserve a response.

First off, any "ranking" is a "made up measure"...it simply depends on what measures are being ranked and the methods used to gather the info. You don't like USNWR's rankings? Fine. But the facts are the facts: JMU has been the top-ranked public comprehensive university in the South by USNWR for 14 consecutive years. Secondly, you're mistaken about the structured categories and methods used by USNWR for ranking schools. They have not been "recently" added to so "pretty much everyone can be considered highly ranked". USNWR's methods and categories have been applied in a stable and consistent manner (with only monor tweaks) for nearly two decades. And as a simple matter of math, there can still only be one "best" in any category. Thirdly, you can cut the crap about the "4 different breakdowns"...the terms simply mirror the well-established and understood manner USNWR uses to distinguish the different groupings of schools in it's rankings. If you don't understand the terms that's your problem.

For the record (and those who don't regularly pay attention to this stuff), UR is the top ranked school in JMU's peer group. In the Northern grouping of comprehensive universities and colleges, Villanova is the top ranked school. UD falls into USNWR's grouping of national research universities (as does W&M) so neither UD nor W&M are compared directly to either UR, Nova or JMU...although you can compare (in an apples to apples fashion) the scores USNWR posts for all institutions under "academic reputation".

In the category of academic reputation "5" is the highest possible USNWR score, and this score is compiled and averaged directly from polls of university Presidents, Deans, highly regarded faculty and others in the academic know from across the country. JMU's academic rep score is "4"...the highest score of any public comprehensive university in the South. UR and Nova's academic rep scores are even higher than JMU's at 4+. Out of courtesy I won't list UD's exact score, but it doesn't rise to the level of a 4...nor has it ever been that high.

So, based on the fact that few schools can boast an academic rep score of 4 (or higher), it's reasonably to suggest that people in Higher Ed regard JMU as an elite school. If USNWR's scores/rankings were the only basis for applying that term to JMU you might have a more convincing argument against its use, but JMU has garnered many other kudos that have recognized the school's strengths across a number of diverse areas. Do these collective recognitions place JMU in the top 100-300 schools in the country? Again, most reasonable people in academia feel that they do, and they have done so in a range of publications.

Of course, you're still entitled to define (or use) the term "elite" anyway you want...but as an individual who has already dismissed USNWR's rankings...and perhaps by extension, any ranking system that might place JMU above UD...you'll understand if I don't take your opinion seriously. So yes, JMU is a "nice school", as is UD, but I'm not the first to call JMU elite, nor am I alone in recognizing it as such.

All this said, let's get back to talkin' FB. xpeacex

[aust42]

Oh, and the main goal is winning the national title - they give out rings for that too. xpeacex

Agreed, winning the national title is the overall main goal, but the 1st goal of the season is to win your Conference, then you worry about winning a National Championship. The post season is another "season" in itself. Having 14 teams in a conference does not realistically allow you to obtain that 1st goal. Their will always be the inevitable controvery of who is really the best team in the conference when you don't play 35% of the teams in your own conference. Might as well become an independent and schedule whoever you want to if your only goal is to make the playoffs. Having a balanced conference is very important IMO.

[93henfan]

So yes, JMU is a "nice school", as is UD, but I'm not the first to call JMU elite, nor am I alone in recognizing it as such.

Look pal, I was going to let you incessantly blab on and on until you decided to take a shot at UD. If you think JMU is superior to UD as an academic institution, you are delusional. Both are great schools, with UD generally regarded as a bit better. Neither can be deemed "elite", so there's no use in using that terminology. Here are some quick hit facts:

UD / JMU

Applicants accepted: 58.4%/63%
Avg SAT: 1191/1140
Degrees offered: 256/106
Annual Operating Budget: $654M/$363M
Endowment: $1.4 Billion /$50.7 Million
Acreage: 2,039/676
Buildings: 441/102
Grants: Land, Sea, Space & Urban/?
Founded: 1743/1908

Sources:
http://www.udel.edu/IR/fnf/index.html
http://www.jmu.edu/jmuweb/aboutJMU/
http://www.nacubo.org/Images/All%20Institutions%20Listed%20by%20FY%202007%20Mar ket%20Value%20of%20Endowment%20Assets_2007%20NES.p df

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

That endowment number for Joo Moo has always amazed me. It is just plain sad.


Look pal, I was going to let you incessantly blab on and on until you decided to take a shot at UD. If you think JMU is superior to UD as an academic institution, you are delusional. Both are great schools, with UD generally regarded as a bit better. Neither can be deemed "elite", so there's no use in using that terminology. Here are some quick hit facts:

UD / JMU

Applicants accepted: 58.4%/63%
Avg SAT: 1191/1140
Degrees offered: 256/106
Annual Operating Budget: $654M/$363M
Endowment: $1.4 Billion /$50.7 Million
Acreage: 2,039/676
Buildings: 441/102
Grants: Land, Sea, Space & Urban/?
Founded: 1743/1908

Sources:
http://www.udel.edu/IR/fnf/index.html
http://www.jmu.edu/jmuweb/aboutJMU/
http://www.nacubo.org/Images/All%20Institutions%20Listed%20by%20FY%202007%20Mar ket%20Value%20of%20Endowment%20Assets_2007%20NES.p df

[93henfan]

I took a look at USNWR's website since it was brought up.

Delaware is tied with Virginia Tech, Michigan State, and Minnesota in the "National Universities - Top Schools" category, which includes the Ivy League, MIT, etc.

JMU is ranked fourth between Stetson and The Citadel in the Universities-Master's (South) category.xeyebrowx

Need more be said?

[Longhorn]

Look pal, I was going to let you incessantly blab on and on until you decided to take a shot at UD. If you think JMU is superior to UD as an academic institution, you are delusional. Both are great schools, with UD generally regarded as a bit better. Neither can be deemed "elite", so there's no use in using that terminology. Here are some quick hit facts:

UD / JMU

Applicants accepted: 58.4%/63%
Avg SAT: 1191/1140
Degrees offered: 256/106
Annual Operating Budget: $654M/$363M
Endowment: $1.4 Billion /$50.7 Million
Acreage: 2,039/676
Buildings: 441/102
Grants: Land, Sea, Space & Urban/?
Founded: 1743/1908

Sources:
http://www.udel.edu/IR/fnf/index.html
http://www.jmu.edu/jmuweb/aboutJMU/
http://www.nacubo.org/Images/All%20Institutions%20Listed%20by%20FY%202007%20Mar ket%20Value%20of%20Endowment%20Assets_2007%20NES.p df

Look "Pal" you're entitled to your opinion...("UD generally regarded as a bit better") but it's not one shared by those working in Higher Ed across the U.S...or at least as identified in the USNWR survey numbers. And for the record, it was never my intent to "take a shot" at UD academics, just respond to GF's little diatribe. UD is a superb institution, and whether you'd label it "elite" is your own decision. If you choose to do so I wouldn't have a problem with it as Roselle made some significant improvements during his tenure that helped lift the entire institution's profile. Do the academics at UD or JMU rival the Princetons of the world? No, but the term "elite" isn't the sole property of the Ivy's. So accept some unsolicited advice. Don't parrot stats about budgets and such...those are minor considerations when it comes to measuring the academic reps of a school. I'm quite familiar with UD's profile and inner workings. I count a number of UD's faculty as good friends and colleagues, and recently chaired an APR (that's ed talk for Academic Program Review) for one of UD's larger programs...a ongoing process that includes outside evaluators meeting with UD's senior administration, faculty and students. I came into that process with high regards for UD as an institution, and left it feeling the same. Bottom line, if you don't like or agree with the fact that the USNWR survey elevates JMU's academic rep above that enjoyed by UD, take it up with USNWR. If you don't think JMU (or UD for that matter) qualifies as "elite", again, you're enitlted to your opinion, but I disagree. In the meantime let's get back to talkin' FB. ;)

[93henfan]

Using your scale, UD is then "elite". Feel free to call us elite. I'm much more grounded in reality and realize than neither UD or JMU are elite academic institutions. I think we can all, except for you, agree to that.xthumbsupx

Yes, let's talk football.

[DFW HOYA]

Accepting 63% of applicants does not define you as elite per se.

JMU has a lot of good programs but perceptions are important, and the perception is that it trails Virginia, W&M, Virginia Tech, Richmond and probably VMI and W&L among the commonwealth's schools, placing it among a group of schools such as George Mason and VCU. It'a made a lot of progress over 40 years, and as time goes on, can do even better.

[93henfan]

Well, your work sure sounds impressive! Hell, it sounds like you know more about UD than all of the graduates of the University that post here!xlolx

But, if you keep calling JMU "elite", you're really going to tarnish your facade a bit in the academic community. Please, be honest with yourself, if not with the people here. JMU and Delaware are not elite schools. Please stop trying to convince yourself of that. I really don't want you to get laughed out of your next APR (that's ed talk for Academic Program Review).xthumbsupx

[GannonFan]

Agreed, winning the national title is the overall main goal, but the 1st goal of the season is to win your Conference, then you worry about winning a National Championship. The post season is another "season" in itself. Having 14 teams in a conference does not realistically allow you to obtain that 1st goal. Their will always be the inevitable controvery of who is really the best team in the conference when you don't play 35% of the teams in your own conference. Might as well become an independent and schedule whoever you want to if your only goal is to make the playoffs. Having a balanced conference is very important IMO.

Again, though, you're missing the point that the CAA will never be a true round robin as it will never be only 9 teams (or less than that). For more than 20 years now it's not been that way and everyone's gotten along pretty will without having a conference champion that is unassailable because it played everyone. 14 teams isn't that much different than 12 from that perspective so the number itself won't be the main reason any team eventually does leave the CAA.

[GannonFan]

xlolx Well, quite a few people care about the rankings, even if you're not one of them. But your laughable comments deserve a response.

First off, any "ranking" is a "made up measure"...it simply depends on what measures are being ranked and the methods used to gather the info. You don't like USNWR's rankings? Fine. But the facts are the facts: JMU has been the top-ranked public comprehensive university in the South by USNWR for 14 consecutive years. Secondly, you're mistaken about the structured categories and methods used by USNWR for ranking schools. They have not been "recently" added to so "pretty much everyone can be considered highly ranked". USNWR's methods and categories have been applied in a stable and consistent manner (with only monor tweaks) for nearly two decades. And as a simple matter of math, there can still only be one "best" in any category. Thirdly, you can cut the crap about the "4 different breakdowns"...the terms simply mirror the well-established and understood manner USNWR uses to distinguish the different groupings of schools in it's rankings. If you don't understand the terms that's your problem.

For the record (and those who don't regularly pay attention to this stuff), UR is the top ranked school in JMU's peer group. In the Northern grouping of comprehensive universities and colleges, Villanova is the top ranked school. UD falls into USNWR's grouping of national research universities (as does W&M) so neither UD nor W&M are compared directly to either UR, Nova or JMU...although you can compare (in an apples to apples fashion) the scores USNWR posts for all institutions under "academic reputation".

In the category of academic reputation "5" is the highest possible USNWR score, and this score is compiled and averaged directly from polls of university Presidents, Deans, highly regarded faculty and others in the academic know from across the country. JMU's academic rep score is "4"...the highest score of any public comprehensive university in the South. UR and Nova's academic rep scores are even higher than JMU's at 4+. Out of courtesy I won't list UD's exact score, but it doesn't rise to the level of a 4...nor has it ever been that high.

So, based on the fact that few schools can boast an academic rep score of 4 (or higher), it's reasonably to suggest that people in Higher Ed regard JMU as an elite school. If USNWR's scores/rankings were the only basis for applying that term to JMU you might have a more convincing argument against its use, but JMU has garnered many other kudos that have recognized the school's strengths across a number of diverse areas. Do these collective recognitions place JMU in the top 100-300 schools in the country? Again, most reasonable people in academia feel that they do, and they have done so in a range of publications.

Of course, you're still entitled to define (or use) the term "elite" anyway you want...but as an individual who has already dismissed USNWR's rankings...and perhaps by extension, any ranking system that might place JMU above UD...you'll understand if I don't take your opinion seriously. So yes, JMU is a "nice school", as is UD, but I'm not the first to call JMU elite, nor am I alone in recognizing it as such.

All this said, let's get back to talkin' FB. xpeacex

Thank you, 'horn, for being a living embodiement of the Lake Wobegon principle. You might even get your picture alongside the definition itself. I know we all can sleep well knowing that any institution we've attended can be considered elite because apparently every instition is. Whoo-Hoo!!!xthumbsupx

[aust42]

Again, though, you're missing the point that the CAA will never be a true round robin as it will never be only 9 teams (or less than that). For more than 20 years now it's not been that way and everyone's gotten along pretty will without having a conference champion that is unassailable because it played everyone. 14 teams isn't that much different than 12 from that perspective so the number itself won't be the main reason any team eventually does leave the CAA.

I realize it has never been a true "round robbin league" but where do you draw the line on the number of teams in a conference when you can't have a Conference Championship game?

[danefan]

This does raise an interesting question that may come up down the road if auto's become in hot demand. (meaning somebody ends up on the chopping block).

To be eligible for an AQ you must be a conference withing the definition of the NCAA Bylaws.

The NCAA bylaws define a conference by including the phrase:




3.02.3.3 Member Conference. A member conference is a group of colleges and/or universities that conducts competition among its members and determines a conference champion...


I can imagine an argument that could be made to say that the CAA at 14 or 16 doesn't really determine a conference champion.

Weak? Sure. But it could be made and may ruffle some feathers.

[BDKJMU]

Accepting 63% of applicants does not define you as elite per se.

JMU has a lot of good programs but perceptions are important, and the perception is that it trails Virginia, W&M, Virginia Tech, Richmond and probably VMI and W&L among the commonwealth's schools, placing it among a group of schools such as George Mason and VCU. It'a made a lot of progress over 40 years, and as time goes on, can do even better.

Hoya, you are correct in that in perceptions and reality when it comes to academics it trails UVA, W&M, UR, and W&L. But you are incorrect in that it trails Va Tech or VMI.

[BlueHen86]

Well, your work sure sounds impressive! Hell, it sounds like you know more about UD than all of the graduates of the University that post here!xlolx

But, if you keep calling JMU "elite", you're really going to tarnish your facade a bit in the academic community. Please, be honest with yourself, if not with the people here. JMU and Delaware are not elite schools. Please stop trying to convince yourself of that. I really don't want you to get laughed out of your next APR (that's ed talk for Academic Program Review).xthumbsupx

Interesting, the son of a friend of mine is going to JMU this fall because he didn't get in to his first choice - Villanovaxlolx

[GannonFan]

This does raise an interesting question that may come up down the road if auto's become in hot demand. (meaning somebody ends up on the chopping block).

To be eligible for an AQ you must be a conference withing the definition of the NCAA Bylaws.

The NCAA bylaws define a conference by including the phrase:




I can imagine an argument that could be made to say that the CAA at 14 or 16 doesn't really determine a conference champion.

Weak? Sure. But it could be made and may ruffle some feathers.


Nah. If this was the Family Feud they'd be throwing one of those big red X's up on the screen right now. The NCAA does not get involved in terms of how conferences "determine" the conference champion. Basically, they take whomever the conference says is the champion. Every conference has some weird assortment of different rules for how a champion is selected and the NCAA doesn't weigh in on any of them. Again, why would the NCAA not worry about a 12 team conference but all of a sudden throw up roadblocks for a 14 team conference?

Oh, and why would autos become in hot demand? They'll always be half of the playoff field and the NCAA has obviously shown that they'll expand the playoffs to add autos.

And again, does the CAA even need an auto anyway? You'd be real hardpressed to find the CAA team that won the conference but wouldn't have made the playoffs without the auto. Take the auto away and the CAA stills 5 teams in last year.

[GannonFan]

Hoya, you are correct in that in perceptions and reality when it comes to academics it trails UVA, W&M, UR, and W&L. But you are incorrect in that it trails Va Tech or VMI.

The silly thing about any of this, of course, is that outside of the Ivy's, to consider a whole school's reputation is pretty much irrelevant. What matters is the reputation of the particular departments in the schools. No one would consider Delaware more prestigious than Princeton as a whole, but UD's departments in fields like chemistry and engineering are worlds more impressive than Princeton's. If someone goes to MIT and (assuming they even offer it) majors in Sociology, then the supposed benefit of an MIT degree is pretty much a moot point. xreadx

[DFW HOYA]

No one would consider Delaware more prestigious than Princeton as a whole, but UD's departments in fields like chemistry and engineering are worlds more impressive than Princeton's.

To some, perhaps, but only in very limited quarters. But if this graduate is going to get involved in fields other than a specialty, and outside the Delaware area, that Princeton name is going to carry weight, fairly or not.

This reminds me of a story a laywer told me the difference between Southern Methodist and Georgetown: an SMU law degree was a big deal in Dallas circles, but the farther away you go, the less people take interest. Conversely, a law degree from Georgetown is not that big a deal in Washington, but the farther away you go, the more people take interest.

[ur2k]

xlolx For the record (and those who don't regularly pay attention to this stuff), UR is the top ranked school in JMU's peer group. In the Northern grouping of comprehensive universities and colleges, Villanova is the top ranked school. UD falls into USNWR's grouping of national research universities (as does W&M) so neither UD nor W&M are compared directly to either UR, Nova or JMU...although you can compare (in an apples to apples fashion) the scores USNWR posts for all institutions under "academic reputation".


All this said, let's get back to talkin' FB. xpeacex

UR is actually not classified in that group anymore but we were #1 in the Masters Level Universities - south for a long time. For the last few years, we have been ranked in the National Liberal Arts Colleges category. I think we ranked #40 in that category.

[93henfan]

UR is actually not classified in that group anymore but we were #1 in the Masters Level Universities - south for a long time. For the last few years, we have been ranked in the National Liberal Arts Colleges category. I think we ranked #40 in that category.

OMG, you went from #1 to #40!xeekx You ain't 'lite no more!!!xlolx xlolx

You have to love the USNWR categories, don't you?

[YoUDeeMan]

This reminds me of a story a laywer told me the difference between Southern Methodist and Georgetown: an SMU law degree was a big deal in Dallas circles, but the farther away you go, the less people take interest. Conversely, a law degree from Georgetown is not that big a deal in Washington, but the farther away you go, the more people take interest.

Pssst...that's because people in Washington don't give a hoot about laws. If they don't like the laws, they just pony up some money and get their hired guns in Congress to change them.

:D

Back to FB...the CAA is fine. And sure, it will change - name a conference that hasn't changed. But anyone saying it HAS to have 9 teams is wishing or wondering rather than working with facts.

[henfan]

I realize it has never been a true "round robbin league" but where do you draw the line on the number of teams in a conference when you can't have a Conference Championship game?

It's not correct to say that the CAA/A-10/Yankee has never played a round robin schedule; it just hasn't happened in many (15) years. As the Yankee Conference, teams competed in round robin play every year from the very beginning until 1993, when NU, JMU & W&M were added, making it impossible for an 11-team round robin schedule. Schools still want to play noncon games. (You might remember a brief time during 2001-2003, when the A-10 went to a 9 game league schedule. That was shelved because the majority of schools wanted to play 3, rather than 2, noncon games each year.)

The league has never had a literal 'conference championship game' and isn't likely to, so long as the current rules remain for FCS post-season competition. There remains the possibility that a figurative conference championship game could take place if the right teams just so happen to be matched up at the end of a season. But that's always been the case with this conference, going back to the 7-team Yankee Conferece of earlier decades. 14 teams, 12 teams, 9 teams doesn't matter, so long as the those teams in the conference who are deserving make the playoffs.

FTR, I've always been an avid supporter of developing rivalries across all sports among teams within your own conference. I don't believe the way to build a strong conference generally is through the use of affiliates. However, the CAA FB league is a special case, given the long-term relationships the full members have had over the decades, not only with FB, but in many other sports.

As Gannonfan suggested, the CAA will most definitely see some membership changes over time. Unless playoff access is somehow limited though, I don't really see the size of the league or the lack of a figurative championship game having an impact on teams leaving. IMO, it's much more likely that a team or two could eventually vamoose voluntarily for financial reasons. Maybe a team leaves for the FBS, maybe one de-emphasizes FB, etc. There's nothing you or I, as UD fans, can do about what other schools want to do with their FB programs.

[JMUDuke2002]

To some, perhaps, but only in very limited quarters. But if this graduate is going to get involved in fields other than a specialty, and outside the Delaware area, that Princeton name is going to carry weight, fairly or not.

This reminds me of a story a laywer told me the difference between Southern Methodist and Georgetown: an SMU law degree was a big deal in Dallas circles, but the farther away you go, the less people take interest. Conversely, a law degree from Georgetown is not that big a deal in Washington, but the farther away you go, the more people take interest.

Perception is everything, especially when dealing with the general public. Most Americans think Princeton has a top notch law school, yet Princeton doesn't have a law school.

As far as the rankings go, it varies from state-to-state and region-to-region. Many people still hold a bias against public universities in favor of private universities. In Virginia, depending on where you live determines your perception of a university. Everyone in the state knows UVa and WM are the elites for public universites. I am willing to bet half the people in Southwest think VT is way better than UVa, WM and JMU. Many probably have never heard of UorR or WL. But, you go to NOVA, UVa is king followed by WM then after that it is a tie between JMU, VT. UofR and WL are filled with kids from out of state, so I usually don't include them is this type of discussion.

But honestly, outside of the Ivies and the so-called public Ivies, many universities are largely the same. Great programs in some areas, but crappy in others. JMU's undergraduate chemistry program is better than Virginia Tech's. But, JMU doesn't have a graduate program in chemistry yet Tech does. I would go to JMU before VT for English, Psych, education, chemistry and any of the arts. But, I would go to VT for bio, engineering, forestry, and ag while UVa is strong is just about any subject. WM has a great physics department oddly enough, fantastic history and poly sci, but I wouldn't go there for chemistry or the arts. Each school outside the ivies has their strenghts and weaknesses.

Rankings can be easily manipulated by deep thinking college admins. Law school rankings are a great indicator of manipulation. Outside the traditional T14, the schools move around all the time depending on money, location, and how many people you admit into the full-time program all while hiding low numbers in the un-reported part-time programs. Syracuse used to be considered a top-notch law school, now it hovers on the cusp of being a 3rd tier. Mason is top 50 law school yet has only been in existence for 36 years. What happened? Syracuse is in a bad location, bad climate and US News came out and said they weren't highly ranked. Yet, a school that is located in Virginia, has in-state tuition, and happens to be located in NOVA is better than a school with 113 years of tradition...

I guess all I am saying through this rambling is that many CAA schools are quality universites with great programs. But even I can admit that my beloved JMU is not "elite," just like Delaware, Towson and UMass are not elite. We should consider ourselves fortunate that our conference is filled with schools that not only are top notch in athletics, but also have solid academic reps. Ok, I'm done.

BTW, MM is just blowing it out his ass yet again, but you gotta love Mickey.

[93henfan]

I guess all I am saying through this rambling is that many CAA schools are quality universites with great programs. But even I can admit that my beloved JMU is not "elite," just like Delaware, Towson and UMass are not elite. We should consider ourselves fortunate that our conference is filled with schools that not only are top notch in athletics, but also have solid academic reps. Ok, I'm done.

Keepin' it real.xnodx Great post.

[mainejeff]

As Gannonfan suggested, the CAA will most definitely see some membership changes over time. Unless playoff access is somehow limited though, I don't really see the size of the league or the lack of a figurative championship game having an impact on teams leaving. IMO, it's much more likely that a team or two could eventually vamoose voluntarily for financial reasons. Maybe a team leaves for the FBS, maybe one de-emphasizes FB, etc. There's nothing you or I, as UD fans, can do about what other schools want to do with their FB programs.

I think that operational (travel, insurance, etc.) expenses will be one of the biggest issues affecting programs. For schools not named Delaware and JMU, it will be imperative that these other programs manage their scheduling and resources well or risk being a target of budget cuts or downgrades. The talk of Georgia State being grouped with the New England schools in the North is asinine. I doubt that the CAA would make a stupid decision like that.

[henfan]

The talk of Georgia State being grouped with the New England schools in the North is asinine. I doubt that the CAA would make a stupid decision like that.

Totally agree on that point, but I'd be surprised if that ever comes to pass. To a fault almost, the CAA has done a terrific job of accomodating everyone's geography.

When the time comes for divisional reorganization, I'd prefer to see something like this, along with a plan to preserve the annual Nova-Delaware rivalry game.

North: UMaine, UNH, UMass, NU, URI, HU, VU
South: UD, TU, JMU, UR, W&M, ODU, GSU

[89Hen]

Like Chuck Burton, you seem to be under the false assumption playing a round-robin conference schedule and "crowning a conference champion" are of utmost importance to the CAA.
FWIW, I thinks it is silly to not play everyone in your conference and it has nothing to do with not crowning a "true champion". It just doesn't make sense to me to call it a conference when you don't play everyone. IMO, it's more like conglomeration of convenience.

[89Hen]

I have to respectively disagree. The playoffs certainly are the utmost reward for a good season, but winning your Conference Championship is another goal in itself. That's why they give out Conference Championship rings. Winning your conference is certainly the main goal starting out the season, making the playoffs is 2nd. That was our objective back when I played. If your win your conference the playoffs are a given...
And I will have to respecfully disagree with you. There is only one goal in I-AA football... a national championship. To do that you must make the playoffs. UMass won the national title in 1998... was NOT the conference auto. JMU won the national title in 2004... was NOT the conference auto. Who really cares about conference championships besides UMass fans who love to talk about how many they have (forgetting to mention that most of them were before UD, JMU, UR.... joined)? IMO conference championships are more like the Lambert Cup... you get it if you make it the furthest in the playoffs, but the cup itself is not really the goal.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Some very interesting comments by UNH's AD, which illustrate the issues well... pro-split and anti-split.

http://www.championshipsubdivisionnews.com/?title=scarano-sees-exciting-challenging-future&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1
Scarano sees exciting, challenging future for UNH athletics
By Mike Zhe, The Portsmouth Herald (NH)
http://www.seacoastonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080725/SPORTS/807250422


By now, we know the Colonial Athletic Association the ‘Cats are part of now isn’t the one that we’ll see in the future. Old Dominion, a Norfolk, Va.-based public university with an enrollment of more than 20,000, will join it in 2011. Georgia State, whose enrollment is even higher, is slated to come aboard in 2012.

All of this will give the CAA more of a southern feel, more expensive road trips and probably more football-playing members (14) than it wants.

“That’s a concern,” said Scarano. “We’re probably going to have to do something. Old Dominion’s coming in and they’re going to be good. Georgia State maybe, too. No disrespect to those schools, but they’re different than us.”

...

Of the 12 football programs that make up the CAA, the Wildcats are one of six — along with Maine, UMass, Rhode Island, Villanova and Richmond — that are football-only members. Those six play their other sports under the banner of three different conferences.

“We want to be affiliated with the right group of people and a competitive group of people,” said Scarano. “We’re looking at this very carefully. (What if) we go into a league with Northeastern and UMass, (then) Northeastern drops football and UMass goes I-A? Then it’s us and Maine — and who?”

On one hand UNH's AD doesn't appear to like a massive conference with tons of schools in VA and one in GA, but on the other he doesn't want to be stuck in an unstable situation up north. This looks to me like what's keeping a "new Yankee" from forming is the instability at N'eastern and UMass' FBS delusions of grandeur.

[SoCon48]

xlolx Well, quite a few people care about the rankings, even if you're not one of them. But your laughable comments deserve a response.

First off, any "ranking" is a "made up measure"...it simply depends on what measures are being ranked and the methods used to gather the info. You don't like USNWR's rankings? Fine. But the facts are the facts: JMU has been the top-ranked public comprehensive university in the South by USNWR for 14 consecutive years. Secondly, you're mistaken about the structured categories and methods used by USNWR for ranking schools. They have not been "recently" added to so "pretty much everyone can be considered highly ranked". USNWR's methods and categories have been applied in a stable and consistent manner (with only monor tweaks) for nearly two decades. And as a simple matter of math, there can still only be one "best" in any category. Thirdly, you can cut the crap about the "4 different breakdowns"...the terms simply mirror the well-established and understood manner USNWR uses to distinguish the different groupings of schools in it's rankings. If you don't understand the terms that's your problem.

For the record (and those who don't regularly pay attention to this stuff), UR is the top ranked school in JMU's peer group. In the Northern grouping of comprehensive universities and colleges, Villanova is the top ranked school. UD falls into USNWR's grouping of national research universities (as does W&M) so neither UD nor W&M are compared directly to either UR, Nova or JMU...although you can compare (in an apples to apples fashion) the scores USNWR posts for all institutions under "academic reputation".

In the category of academic reputation "5" is the highest possible USNWR score, and this score is compiled and averaged directly from polls of university Presidents, Deans, highly regarded faculty and others in the academic know from across the country. JMU's academic rep score is "4"...the highest score of any public comprehensive university in the South. UR and Nova's academic rep scores are even higher than JMU's at 4+. Out of courtesy I won't list UD's exact score, but it doesn't rise to the level of a 4...nor has it ever been that high.

So, based on the fact that few schools can boast an academic rep score of 4 (or higher), it's reasonably to suggest that people in Higher Ed regard JMU as an elite school. If USNWR's scores/rankings were the only basis for applying that term to JMU you might have a more convincing argument against its use, but JMU has garnered many other kudos that have recognized the school's strengths across a number of diverse areas. Do these collective recognitions place JMU in the top 100-300 schools in the country? Again, most reasonable people in academia feel that they do, and they have done so in a range of publications.

Of course, you're still entitled to define (or use) the term "elite" anyway you want...but as an individual who has already dismissed USNWR's rankings...and perhaps by extension, any ranking system that might place JMU above UD...you'll understand if I don't take your opinion seriously. So yes, JMU is a "nice school", as is UD, but I'm not the first to call JMU elite, nor am I alone in recognizing it as such.

All this said, let's get back to talkin' FB. xpeacex

JMU's academic rep score is "4"...the highest score of any public comprehensive university in the South.

Fly in your ointment: JMU does not have a 4.

[mcveyrl]

Does any of this crap matter??

Two years out of school nobody cares where you went, it's what you did. If the best education you got was when you were 18-22, you've got bigger issues than where you went to school.

I went to JMU and a fourth tier law school, but could get a job just about anywhere because of where I work now and the experience I have.

Also, does anybody see the hilarity in the fact that a Mickey Matthews comment sparked a debate on academic elitism?

[SoCon48]

Does any of this crap matter??

Two years out of school nobody cares where you went, it's what you did. If the best education you got was when you were 18-22, you've got bigger issues than where you went to school.

I went to JMU and a fourth tier law school, but could get a job just about anywhere because of where I work now and the experience I have.

Also, does anybody see the hilarity in the fact that a Mickey Matthews comment sparked a debate on academic elitism?

Does any of this crap matter??

Probably not, but facts should be corrected.

[henfan]

This looks to me like what's keeping a "new Yankee" from forming is the instability at N'eastern and UMass' FBS delusions of grandeur.

Sure, those elements make up what is apparently the main obstacle for any new conference: critical mass.

In this case, it would be a very risky proposition for any CAA affiliate to leave their stable environment for a new conference, especially if the new conference hasn't secured commitments from at least 6 or 7 core (non affiliate) members.

[aust42]

And I will have to respecfully disagree with you. There is only one goal in I-AA football... a national championship. To do that you must make the playoffs. UMass won the national title in 1998... was NOT the conference auto. JMU won the national title in 2004... was NOT the conference auto. Who really cares about conference championships besides UMass fans who love to talk about how many they have (forgetting to mention that most of them were before UD, JMU, UR.... joined)? IMO conference championships are more like the Lambert Cup... you get it if you make it the furthest in the playoffs, but the cup itself is not really the goal.


Well to Tubby Raymond and all of us players, winning the Conference Championship was very important.

[89Hen]

Well to Tubby Raymond and all of us players, winning the Conference Championship was very important.
I guess that's a good thing, since Tubby didn't win the big one.

[aust42]

I guess that's a good thing, since Tubby didn't win the big one.

Actually Tubby won three National Titles in 1971, 1972 & 1979. In addition he's had countless # of playoff appearances with 300 career wins. I think his philosophy on football, setting goals, and teaching his team the importance of winning your Conference is valid. I can't even believe this is an argument.

[Maroon&White]

And I will have to respecfully disagree with you. There is only one goal in I-AA football... a national championship. To do that you must make the playoffs. UMass won the national title in 1998... was NOT the conference auto. JMU won the national title in 2004... was NOT the conference auto. Who really cares about conference championships besides UMass fans who love to talk about how many they have (forgetting to mention that most of them were before UD, JMU, UR.... joined)? IMO conference championships are more like the Lambert Cup... you get it if you make it the furthest in the playoffs, but the cup itself is not really the goal.

Ahh, your continued jealousy of UMass. Glad to see it's still doing well.

[Old Cage]

Hey, Lehigh Nation - Concerning your post about "UMass' FBS delusions of grandeur":

The odds that we move up are still not great, but I have no doubt that if we did, we would do it well.

Our hoops team and our lax team and our soccer team have been to Final Fours and our hockey has missed by one game. As a community we know what it takes to compete at a high level. In that regard we are very different from most of the CAA.

As for the CAA - as the league moves further into the tropics my interest in the teams that will appear in Amherst lessens materially. I am not talking about the quality of the football, but losing regional opponents and gaining away dates that are not within driving distance seems not to be in our best interest.

I am very happy that we are playing Holy Cross again and hope that Albany (or whoever) becomes a regional power. If we stay in this division that is of much greater interest to me than playing Towson or the two newcomers.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Hey, Lehigh Nation - Concerning your post about "UMass' FBS delusions of grandeur":

The odds that we move up are still not great, but I have no doubt that if we did, we would do it well.

Our hoops team and our lax team and our soccer team have been to Final Fours and our hockey has missed by one game. As a community we know what it takes to compete at a high level. In that regard we are very different from most of the CAA.

As for the CAA - as the league moves further into the tropics my interest in the teams that will appear in Amherst lessens materially. I am not talking about the quality of the football, but losing regional opponents and gaining away dates that are not within driving distance seems not to be in our best interest.

I am very happy that we are playing Holy Cross again and hope that Albany (or whoever) becomes a regional power. If we stay in this division that is of much greater interest to me than playing Towson or the two newcomers.

I know what you're saying, Old Cage - to you, it's not worth being the Northern outpost of a Southern-themed league. I'm reading what you're saying as for UMass it appears to be "Big East or FCS" in terms of football - no MAC's or Sun Belt's for you.

But you also bring up a great point. Regional rivalries are important. So if the option opened itself up of a stable Yankee conference with:
Maine
UNH
URI
UMass
N'eastern
Hofstra

while adding Stony Brook and Albany (and maybe CCSU), you'd be receptive. With a big caveat that one of those three other teams make a commitment to be "regional powers". But it would allow for 7-8 regional conference games, perhaps a "play up" game (UConn? BC? Army? Navy?) and some regional games (like HC).

Interesting stuff. As you can see, not everyone agrees with you.

[ChickenMan]

Ahh, your continued jealousy of UMass. Glad to see it's still doing well.


UMass is 5-22.. all-time.. vs Delaware.. just WHAT are UD fans supposed to be jealous of... xrolleyesx

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

I know what you're saying, Old Cage - to you, it's not worth being the Northern outpost of a Southern-themed league. I'm reading what you're saying as for UMass it appears to be "Big East or FCS" in terms of football - no MAC's or Sun Belt's for you.

But you also bring up a great point. Regional rivalries are important. So if the option opened itself up of a stable Yankee conference with:
Maine
UNH
URI
UMass
N'eastern
Hofstra

while adding Stony Brook and Albany (and maybe CCSU), you'd be receptive. With a big caveat that one of those three other teams make a commitment to be "regional powers". But it would allow for 7-8 regional conference games, perhaps a "play up" game (UConn? BC? Army? Navy?) and some regional games (like HC).

Interesting stuff. As you can see, not everyone agrees with you.

Most have stated that the chances of getting that core together isn't very likely. xrolleyesx And if you've been reading carefully, you'll recall that I've said that core is the starting point for me to consider a "new Yankee" as feasible. I still don't see how it happens as long as NU and HU are all sports members of the CAA. That's a hard, cold fact that doesn't go away no matter how much you want a "new Yankee".

You've yet to post how exactly all the issues and concerns can be resolved to allow the formation of this new regional league. (The majority here didn't consider the CAA administering another league to be a realistic solution.) Or how the "critical mass" that Henfan described be achieved.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Some very interesting comments by UNH's AD, which illustrate the issues well... pro-split and anti-split.

http://www.championshipsubdivisionnews.com/?title=scarano-sees-exciting-challenging-future&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1
Scarano sees exciting, challenging future for UNH athletics
By Mike Zhe, The Portsmouth Herald (NH)
http://www.seacoastonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080725/SPORTS/807250422



On one hand UNH's AD doesn't appear to like a massive conference with tons of schools in VA and one in GA, but on the other he doesn't want to be stuck in an unstable situation up north. This looks to me like what's keeping a "new Yankee" from forming is the instability at N'eastern and UMass' FBS delusions of grandeur.

Add in uncertainty about what Maine and URI will do, the difficulty of getting a base of 7-8 all sports members in this football conference that would satisfy all the members, why do Northeastern and Hofstra leave the CAA for this new conference, the unlikelihood of any current AE members to add football, etc. It's much more complicated than just UMass and Northeastern.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Most have stated that the chances of getting that core together isn't very likely. xrolleyesx And if you've been reading carefully, you'll recall that I've said that core is the starting point for me to consider a "new Yankee" as feasible. I still don't see how it happens as long as NU and HU are all sports members of the CAA. That's a hard, cold fact that doesn't go away no matter how much you want a "new Yankee".

You've yet to post how exactly all the issues and concerns can be resolved to allow the formation of this new regional league. (The majority here didn't consider the CAA administering another league to be a realistic solution.) Or how the "critical mass" that Henfan described be achieved.

I don't care what the CAA has said in the past. If the MVFC can administer two conferences out of their office, I fail to see why it would be impossible for the CAA to rewrite the rules so they could do the same. If they're going to lose members, doesn't that benefit them to do so?

If the CAA is administering it, why should they care whether N'eastern (and Hofstra) plays in the CAA or the Yankee in football? Perhaps this allows them to remain in the CAA whereas they'd consider dropping football/moving otherwise.

If the CAA is administering it, the TV right still go to the CAA to distribution. No worries about TV coverage anymore - it gets negotiatied through the same office.

If the CAA is adminstering it and keeps the same schools, they would be eligible for an autobid right away without waiting.

To me? The issues are the intentions of N'eastern and UMass. If UMass says "we're in FCS for the long haul and the Big East dream is over", and N'eastern finds enough money and support to keep football there, the Yankee administered by the CAA is a done deal. But without them making a commitment to FCS football, that's the big snag.

What the CAA has said in the past is not germane to the discussion, as is the blathering from America East and the A-10 - only what the landsacape is now. To me, N'eastern and UMass are the only thing keeping the Yankee split from happening.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Add in uncertainty about what Maine and URI will do, the difficulty of getting a base of 7-8 all sports members in this football conference that would satisfy all the members, why do Northeastern and Hofstra leave the CAA for this new conference, the unlikelihood of any current AE members to add football, etc. It's much more complicated than just UMass and Northeastern.

I feel that Maine will do what UNH does, and URI is here to stay too (despite talk to the contrary). The key is UMass and N'eastern.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

I don't care what the CAA has said in the past. If the MVFC can administer two conferences out of their office, I fail to see why it would be impossible for the CAA to rewrite the rules so they could do the same. If they're going to lose members, doesn't that benefit them to do so?

If the CAA is administering it, why should they care whether N'eastern (and Hofstra) plays in the CAA or the Yankee in football? Perhaps this allows them to remain in the CAA whereas they'd consider dropping football/moving otherwise.

If the CAA is administering it, the TV right still go to the CAA to distribution. No worries about TV coverage anymore - it gets negotiatied through the same office.

If the CAA is adminstering it and keeps the same schools, they would be eligible for an autobid right away without waiting.

To me? The issues are the intentions of N'eastern and UMass. If UMass says "we're in FCS for the long haul and the Big East dream is over", and N'eastern finds enough money and support to keep football there, the Yankee administered by the CAA is a done deal. But without them making a commitment to FCS football, that's the big snag.

What the CAA has said in the past is not germane to the discussion, as is the blathering from America East and the A-10 - only what the landsacape is now. To me, N'eastern and UMass are the only thing keeping the Yankee split from happening.

Unless the members they're losing are all-sports members then I don't think there is enough benefit for the CAA to do anything. It's not impossible, just haven't heard any rumors yet that they are so inclined.

I'd think that Hofstra and Northeastern might be expected by their all sports mates in the CAA to play football against their all sports mates rather than in the "Yankee". Especially if the "new Yankee" was actually a separate league being administered by the CAA. If it was an expanded CAA with two divisions, then I'd see them put into a northern division much like Hofstra is today.

So, if UMass says they are FCS forever and Northeastern says they'll continue playing full scholly football, then you think the new Yankee will happen immediately. I don't think it is that simple. But I do hope you're correct about everybody staying under the CAA banner because that option is significantly better than anything else proposed and it allows my alma mater to stay affiliated with more like minded schools.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

I feel that Maine will do what UNH does, and URI is here to stay too (despite talk to the contrary). The key is UMass and N'eastern.

Not so sure. A couple more losing seasons in Orono and no sign of a turnaround in Kingston might be a significant factor. I know at least one AGS rep from each school who will be requesting a change for their alma mater. ;)

I think Maine will do what they think is best for Maine and what their alumni desire.

[Husky Alum]

I love UNHAlum and respect everything he posts, and I agree with him here.

Why would NU, despite this winter's recent uncertainties, agree to play in a conference when it's a valued member of the CAA for football now? Our AD has said we're playing football for a while - and no one's mentioned leaving the CAA as long as we play the sport.

We would have no scheduling problems staying in the CAA if UNH and Maine left for a "New Yankee" - you think they'd want to play us OOC? Most certainly.

The travel costs for this season are being paid for by alumni donations, and if this trend continues, and we still play a money game every year, I don't think that the travel cost issue for footall will be the deciding factor.

Next season we have negligible travel costs as our longest road trip is to Villanova.

We've also committed not to play intersectional OOC's after we complete the home/home with Youngstown. We've figured out that you can play a good OOC against PL and NEC teams just as easily.

No knock against Davis, but that home/home was a terrible waste of money for NU. Our senior administration wants NU to compete on the west coast for alumni, student attraction and development reasons - and we schedule the most expensive sport to do - and it's not in the Bay Area.