Patriot League Inferiority Complex

[carney2]

Just one short year ago Patriot League posters were all over this board. We were the The Hole in the Wall Gang and the James brothers, hijacking every thread that didn't contain the word "Griz" (who gives a crap about them, anyway?) and twisting/turning it to serve our own parochial arguments. This year: nothing. Dead. If it weren't for Lehigh's Chuck Burton (LFN), we wouldn't have heard even a discouraging word since last November. (Since this is one of the 364 days when I actually like those Brown guys, I say: Thank you, Chuck, I appreciate it. Great effort.)

I more or less started this argument on the Lafayette board, but now I ask all of you, what the H E Double Hockey Sticks is wrong with us?! I then answer my own question:

The Patriot League's inferiority complex has kicked in.

It has been 5 years since Colgate's magic run through the tundra to Chattanooga. In fact, it's been 5 years since the League has won a playoff game. There has been no movement in the direction of football scholarships. The League presidents continue to tinker with the obscure Academic Index which none of us understands and which gives every appearance that they are rearranging tiny deck chairs on the Titanic. OOC wins of any significance have been few and far between. Our favorite playmates, the Ivys, have implemented very aggressive financial aid policies which may well destroy this unequal partnership. The NEC, playing in our own back yard, has become a scholarship league of note. And, Lafayette continues in its roll of September pushover for any Ivy AD with enough sense to schedule them. (Needed to get that last one off my chest - again.)

Face it, from a football standpoint, we are inferior. So what. Not news. Suck it up. Revel in it like Cubs or old time Redsox fans. Heads up! Get off your duffs and do something.

Curmudgeonly yours, and now it's your turn.

[AZGrizFan]

Hey, at least you're not the Pioneer. xlolx

[Pard94]

Just one short year ago Patriot League posters were all over this board. We were the The Hole in the Wall Gang and the James brothers, hijacking every thread that didn't contain the word "Griz" (who gives a crap about them, anyway?) and twisting/turning it to serve our own parochial arguments. This year: nothing. Dead. If it weren't for Lehigh's Chuck Burton (LFN), we wouldn't have heard even a discouraging word since last November. (Since this is one of the 364 days when I actually like those Brown guys, I say: Thank you, Chuck, I appreciate it. Great effort.)

I more or less started this argument on the Lafayette board, but now I ask all of you, what the H E Double Hockey Sticks is wrong with us?! I then answer my own question:

The Patriot League's inferiority complex has kicked in.

It has been 5 years since Colgate's magic run through the tundra to Chattanooga. In fact, it's been 5 years since the League has won a playoff game. There has been no movement in the direction of football scholarships. The League presidents continue to tinker with the obscure Academic Index which none of us understands and which gives every appearance that they are rearranging tiny deck chairs on the Titanic. OOC wins of any significance have been few and far between. Our favorite playmates, the Ivys, have implemented very aggressive financial aid policies which may well destroy this unequal partnership. The NEC, playing in our own back yard, has become a scholarship league of note. And, Lafayette continues in its roll of September pushover for any Ivy AD with enough sense to schedule them. (Needed to get that last one off my chest - again.)

Face it, from a football standpoint, we are inferior. So what. Not news. Suck it up. Revel in it like Cubs or old time Redsox fans. Heads up! Get off your duffs and do something.

Curmudgeonly yours, and now it's your turn.


Honestly I think there is enough doubt as to who the big dogs in the league are going to be this year to keep the smack talk at a minimum. I know that I have held back for that reason. While I feel Lafayette has a good chance to win the league...I'm not ready to bet a mortgage payment on it.

As for being inferior...I guess if we are if you just look at football. If you take into consideration admissions selectivity, graduation rates, student experience etc. I think we are one of the top leagues in the country. And while I understand this is a football site, I would suggest that if you show me somebody who bemoans such considerations as insignificant...I'll show you somebody who went to a lesser college. How's that for an inferiority complex?xsmiley_wix

[LBPop]

Question for Patriot League grads...I went to a state school so I don't know the answer ;) . Is it an inferiority complex, if you really are inferior?

But seriously, I think Carney's observations may relate directly to the improvement in the Ivy League the past four or five years. It used to be that the PL could say that it was the highly rated academic/non-scholarship league that played the best football. Now that's really not true. The PL is still non-scholarship and still strong academically, but it's no longer the best football league to fit into both of those categories. So if you were initially trying to be "Ivy League Lite" academically, you wanted to at least be better on the field. Not so now. xcoffeex

[Scooter]

Maybe the Patriot league would be better if they were allowed to film the sidelines of their opponents. Hell, it worked for the other Patriots.

[ngineer]

At this time of year, without any real news to sink one's teeth into, it is difficult to generate much discussion of substance, other than what LFN has done for us. I agree with the above post, that this year the is no 'clear favorite' to be puffing its chest out, verbally. Since there is the 'required' nod to the preseason favorite, I think that has to go to the defending champion, Fordham with alot returning. But I seriously believe the 'other four' are all capable of giving them a run for the money.

I also think the lack of any perceived advancement of the ball on scholarships has cast a slight pall on our collective situation, in light of the NEC's moves. You are correct that we are caught in a somewhat limbo between them and and Ivy; though I do not consider it an 'inferiority complex'. Overall, I think the Patriot League model is well respected in considering the quality of the institutions and the competitiveness of our teams. Yes, we haven't won much of late OCC/playoffs, but we aren't getting blown out either. There is no question in my mind that if we went to scholarships, keeping at the same financial level, that we would see a boost in our results against the CAA and Ivy. Until then, we can only 'fight the good fight' with the cards that have been dealt.xthumbsupx

[PapaBear]

No true FAN of college sports would even suggest that the Patriot League is inferior. Certainly not in football. Sure, there are other leagues with a more consistent national presence. But if they were measured with the PL's multiple and very rigid yardsticks (insert gratuitous sex joke here:D ), one has to question whether they'd stand up (OK ... I'll stop, nowxeyebrowx ).

Seriously ... My daughter graduated from Lehigh, and I have several friends who either attended -- or whose kids attend(ed) -- other PL schools -- Lafayette, Bucknell ...

I love those schools. I love what they represent, athletically and academically. They take a backseat to nobody.

Any PL fan that thinks otherwise has drunk way too much Kool Aid from the few but shamelessly vocal rah rahs on this board.

[Go...gate]

Inferiority complex, hell! I love Colgate football and have for a lifetime; I have seen the Red Raiders in awful times and triumphant times and sometimes in the middle. Hard to win every year at the FCS level, because you still have the true turnover of rosters that prevailed in College Football for years. At this level, a lot more of the kids are in it to get an education, graduate and take on the world. So you will have some up-and down times, young rosters, etc. That is what made 2003 - like 1977 and 1932 - special moments to be cherished as long as a Colgate fan lives. I'm sure our collegaues at Delaware feel the same, and sooner or later, they will at Applachian State.

Same for the Patriot League. I think it is a fine conference and, IMO, will endure, though some adjustments are needed beyond AI.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I'm here and always will be. I agree that it is somewhat of a down time here with everyone getting ready for camp to open up. Hopefully Lehigh will give us fans something positive to talk about this fall. It might sound a little conceded but i think with Lehigh struggling the last couple of years it has hurt the league some. They still have the largest fan base in the league and were the team that broke the league into the national conscious.

[TheValleyRaider]

I don't think it's us, actually

I think it's everyone else

We still talk about the Patriot League. What other League would we talk about? We don't have one large fanbase (Montana, NDSU, Delaware, pick your SoCon school, etc.) to consistently bring us up to the general population. Since none of us has advanced past the 1st round since that fateful year, we've falled from the national consciousness a bit. Others feel less of a need to talk about us, and so our threads appear a bit more insular. Being a weaker League in 2006 didn't particularly help, but I think whoever wins the League this year (and most years) is a legitimate Championship contender xnodx

Just a thought, any way

[DFW HOYA]

Carney is right on this one. If the PL isn't in decline, it's giving the phrase "standing pat" a run for its money.

Go back to 2003 and see wome of the teams the PL teams were playing...and beating--not just Ivies, but outside the fold:

Colgate 38, at Buffalo 15
Fordham 63, at URI 28
Bucknell 33, at Del. St. 28
Georgetown 49, Stony Brook 21

And if Lehigh did lose 35-17 at UConn, at least it got them on the schedule. Today's I-A teams won't go near a PL team.

So what are three of the League's most telling issues?

1. Inability to innovate. The PL leadership is caught looking in the rear view mirror for the Ivies and keeps trying to zig when they zag. The PL continues to ignore the increasing evidence that the academic index is making these schools irrelevant outside its PL-Ivy circle, and continues to schedule within a narrow mindset that diminishes recruiting. The PL and Ivy is not some sort of Division I version of the NESCAC, where by only playing each other, they avoid the possibility that alumni might see how far back they are. At least they shouldn't be.

Instead of a serious run at competing with the Ancient Eight (and everything that brings), I think there is an element in the league's leadership that is happy just being invited to play the brahmin and not to upset the arrangement.

2. Emergence of a permanent underclass. Sure, the Morning Call will say 2008 is a wide open race, but if you're in Washington, check your hopes at the door. It took the lowest AI in the league and a big budget to finally get Fordham out of the cellar, but Georgetown has neither, and that doesn't help anyone. Add to that the flattening of the Bucknell growth curve, and the PL is increasingly becoming a 4 or 5 team conference within a seven team schedule, and that shows through in the one (no at-large) and done playoff records.

3. Decreasing exposure. In an era where more conferences are angling for satellite TV time, the PL still has no league-wide package, in part because Lehigh and Lafayette are not willing to cede broadcast rights to a network. The CAA and NEC are frankly working harder at it right now, and with the new Ivy TV deal, the PL joins the Pioneer as being on the media sidelines this season.

Good thing the Atlantic Ten has no football aspirations...yet. Massachusetts, URI, Villanova, and Richmond each offer scholarships, Duquesne will have 40 soon, and Fordham could flip its aid packages to scholarships in short order. If that were to happen, the the PL would be on the brink of losing its autobid, never to return.

[bison137]

2. Emergence of a permanent underclass. Sure, the Morning Call will say 2008 is a wide open race, but if you're in Washington, check your hopes at the door. It took the lowest AI in the league and a big budget to finally get Fordham out of the cellar, but Georgetown has neither, and that doesn't help anyone. Add to that the flattening of the Bucknell growth curve, and the PL is increasingly becoming a 4 or 5 team conference within a seven team schedule, and that shows through in the one (no at-large) and done playoff records.




Actually I think the reverse might be true. Over the past few years, the league has been more balanced than in previous years, which means no dominant teams and fewer very weak teams. Looking back at the history of the league, typically there have been 2 or 3 strong teams each year and at least 3 weaklings. Last year was actually only the second time in the past 11 years where there were not two teams with 0 or 1 loss in league play.

Over the history of the league, the only team that has not gone through a period of being awful is Lehigh. Bucknell has generally been weak since Tom Gadd had to step down in 2002 due to terminal cancer; Colgate was terrible in the early 90's; Fordham was awful from the league's inception until 2000; Holy Cross was very weak from the time the scholarships ran out around 1994-95 until 2005 (except for a good year in 2000); Lafayette was very weak from about 1995 through 2001; and Georgetown has not had a good year yet. Except for Georgetown, each of those teams has also had a period when they were quite strong.

One example of the league's lack of strength through most of the 90's is the fact that Bucknell was the second winningest team in the league from 1993-99 (with Lehigh on top of course). Colgate became a strong team starting around 1997 and they generally battled Lehigh for the crown for the next 7 years (with Fordham making a brief appearance near the top in 2001-02). During that time period, everyone else was weak. Then Lafayette got a lot stronger in 2002 and has been a factor in the title hunt every year but one since then. Holy Cross then entered the picture in 2006 and Fordham in 2007, giving the league five legitimate title contenders - something that it never had during most of its earlier history. And even Bucknell, who has been going through some tough times, has had wins over Colgate and 1st place Fordham in the last two years.

[TheValleyRaider]

Carney is right on this one. If the PL isn't in decline, it's giving the phrase "standing pat" a run for its money.

Go back to 2003 and see wome of the teams the PL teams were playing...and beating--not just Ivies, but outside the fold:

Colgate 38, at Buffalo 15
Fordham 63, at URI 28
Bucknell 33, at Del. St. 28
Georgetown 49, Stony Brook 21

And if Lehigh did lose 35-17 at UConn, at least it got them on the schedule. Today's I-A teams won't go near a PL team.

In 2003:
Buffalo went 1-11
Rhode Island went 4-8
Delaware St. went 1-10
Stony Brook went 6-4, but beat only non-scholly NEC teams and got blown out by a Georgetown team that went 4-8

Not trying to rip on G'town (or anyone else) but that isn't exactly murderer's row there. Those were far less impressive wins in 2003 than they would be today

I think you're right though about the League standing still. Movement on the scholarship issue (and it needs to come soon) would be the biggest thing we as a League can do to improve our football image xnodx

[DFW HOYA]

In 2003:
Not trying to rip on G'town (or anyone else) but that isn't exactly murderer's row there. Those were far less impressive wins in 2003 than they would be today

Agreed, but while those teams got better, the PL teams are not far removed from where they were in 2003.

But as to movement on scholarships, not making a decision is a decision. LFN can speak to this more clearly, but I think the PL has effectively decided not to push scholarships and this is part of the decline.

[DetroitFlyer]

The Patriot League's profile is being raised by playing teams from the PFL! The Dayton / Fordham series will be at least three games long and Lehigh has at least a two game series with Drake. Frankly, in 2008, the PL, the Ivy League and the PFL would do well to increase games against one another. The three leagues have far more similarity on the football front than they do with the rest of FCS.... The PFL brings a whole new dynamic to the equation, the ability to play competitive games across the country. All three leagues are now recruiting heavily on a national basis, and it would help the Northeastern teams to get out and play some games in Florida, California, North Carolina, Ohio, Iowa, etc. Just think about it, how many kids from the corn fields of Iowa have ever heard of Holy Cross or Lafayette? How many kids in Ohio have a clue who Colgate is, ( other than the toothpaste of course ). It is also a nice break for the fans.... A road trip to Dayton, Jacksonville or San Diego is far more interesting than playing in your own backyard all season. As near as I can tell, the PL has it made in the shade. Autobid, student / athletes that are almost on a par with Dayton's, minimal travel costs, and the ability to compete with virtually any team in FCS. Maybe aspiring to be the SoCon or Gateway is not that great an idea.... Does Lehigh really want the type of student athletes that choose to play at YSU? There is nothing wrong with being unique and filling your niche. YSU fills it niche quite well. Dayton fills it niche quite well. I think the PL on a whole does the same.

Does having "athletic scholarships" make it a bit easier in the world of FCS? Probably.... But what about an Ivy League school, a Patriot League school or a Dayton, San Diego, Drake, Davidson, etc. is "easy"? Think about it for a moment.... If you are a grad of an Ivy, PL or PFL school, do you expect life to come easy? My guess is no.... As such, folks associated with these schools are used to having to work just a bit harder than their State U counterparts. Of course this feeds directly into recruiting.... So you cannot take the 2.0, barely eligible superstar that a Northern Iowa may be able to take.... Big deal. You suck it up and you find that "superstar" that meets your stringent academic requirements and hope you can recruit him away from Dayton, Ohio! Maybe you should just enjoy the additional challenge, take pride in knowing it is not "easy" and frankly, ENJOY THE RIDE!

[Franks Tanks]

The Patriot League's profile is being raised by playing teams from the PFL! The Dayton / Fordham series will be at least three games long and Lehigh has at least a two game series with Drake. Frankly, in 2008, the PL, the Ivy League and the PFL would do well to increase games against one another. The three leagues have far more similarity on the football front than they do with the rest of FCS.... The PFL brings a whole new dynamic to the equation, the ability to play competitive games across the country. All three leagues are now recruiting heavily on a national basis, and it would help the Northeastern teams to get out and play some games in Florida, California, North Carolina, Ohio, Iowa, etc. Just think about it, how many kids from the corn fields of Iowa have ever heard of Holy Cross or Lafayette? How many kids in Ohio have a clue who Colgate is, ( other than the toothpaste of course ). It is also a nice break for the fans.... A road trip to Dayton, Jacksonville or San Diego is far more interesting than playing in your own backyard all season. As near as I can tell, the PL has it made in the shade. Autobid, student / athletes that are almost on a par with Dayton's, minimal travel costs, and the ability to compete with virtually any team in FCS. Maybe aspiring to be the SoCon or Gateway is not that great an idea.... Does Lehigh really want the type of student athletes that choose to play at YSU? There is nothing wrong with being unique and filling your niche. YSU fills it niche quite well. Dayton fills it niche quite well. I think the PL on a whole does the same.

Does having "athletic scholarships" make it a bit easier in the world of FCS? Probably.... But what about an Ivy League school, a Patriot League school or a Dayton, San Diego, Drake, Davidson, etc. is "easy"? Think about it for a moment.... If you are a grad of an Ivy, PL or PFL school, do you expect life to come easy? My guess is no.... As such, folks associated with these schools are used to having to work just a bit harder than their State U counterparts. Of course this feeds directly into recruiting.... So you cannot take the 2.0, barely eligible superstar that a Northern Iowa may be able to take.... Big deal. You suck it up and you find that "superstar" that meets your stringent academic requirements and hope you can recruit him away from Dayton, Ohio! Maybe you should just enjoy the additional challenge, take pride in knowing it is not "easy" and frankly, ENJOY THE RIDE!


Athletes that are ALMOST on par with Daytons???? WTF are you talking about. You beat Fordham once, big deal. That is like saying App state would win the big 10 every year because of one win. Then again it must be pretty easy to get athletes into a school that admits 79% on their applicants, Ohio State only admits 68% of applicants. It is easier to get into Dayton then Ohio State.

[DetroitFlyer]

Athletes that are ALMOST on par with Daytons???? WTF are you talking about. You beat Fordham once, big deal. That is like saying App state would win the big 10 every year because of one win. Then again it must be pretty easy to get athletes into a school that admits 79% on their applicants, Ohio State only admits 68% of applicants. It is easier to get into Dayton then Ohio State.

http://daytonflyers.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/110807aab.html

Overall, UD has had 45 football Academic All-Americans. Among schools currently playing Division I football, only Nebraska (81) and Notre Dame (46) have had more.


Well, maybe if your were talking about Notre Dame or Nebraska, I would be listening. Exactly how many football Academic All-Americans has your school produced? How about the "best" school in the Patriot League?

Care to try again?xlolx

[Fordham]

Much ado about nothing carney. Although I agree with DFW's post, I don't think the stagnation has anything to do with AGS posting.

[Model Citizen]

You beat Fordham once, big deal. That is like saying App state would win the big 10 every year because of one win.

LOL Michigan didn't win the Big Ten.

[Franks Tanks]

http://daytonflyers.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/110807aab.html

Overall, UD has had 45 football Academic All-Americans. Among schools currently playing Division I football, only Nebraska (81) and Notre Dame (46) have had more.


Well, maybe if your were talking about Notre Dame or Nebraska, I would be listening. Exactly how many football Academic All-Americans has your school produced? How about the "best" school in the Patriot League?

Care to try again?xlolx


The reason is simple. It is much easier to achieve good grades at Dayton due to easier classes, majors and grade inflation. Patriot League schools do not have majors like Exercise Science, Physical Education, and Sports Management where jocks can slip in and get good grades relatively easily. Patriot and Ivy FB players mostly have majors like Econ, Engineering, Political Science, English etc. these are very difficult and demanding courses at the PL and Ivy schools, and this is why we dont have guys all over the place with 3.8 GPA's.

The fact is the profile of incoming recruits to the PL is much higher then at Dayton. Do the PL kids get dumb over the next 4 years?? Of course not they are taking harder classes and getting graded on a more difficult scale.

[Franks Tanks]

LOL Michigan didn't win the Big Ten.

Did I say they did?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Congratulations carney, you've now inspired me to make a blog posting on this very subject... xlolx

Everyone brings up a bunch of very interesting points. One that hasn't gotten a lot of discussion is this one:


3. Decreasing exposure. In an era where more conferences are angling for satellite TV time, the PL still has no league-wide package, in part because Lehigh and Lafayette are not willing to cede broadcast rights to a network. The CAA and NEC are frankly working harder at it right now, and with the new Ivy TV deal, the PL joins the Pioneer as being on the media sidelines this season.

I'm not aware of a big Ivy League TV deal DFW - care to elaborate? In any case, the absence of a TV deal for the entire league in football I agree is a problem. The TV landscape for Patriot League football currently consists of: basically all Lehigh and Lafayette games televised locally in some form; about half of Colgate's games are televised locally; Fordham gets the occasional local TV look (for example, last year's HC/Fordham game); and Holy Cross, Bucknell, and Georgetown getting nearly completely skunked.

To be fair, it's not like the three "skunked" schools have done the legwork to set up TV coverage the same way Lehigh, Lafayette and Colgate have. Furthermore, why wouldn't Fordham do more on this front? You would think Fordham in particular would have a leg up: not only did they televise the first-ever CFB game, they're in the biggest sports market in the world and the YES Network basically at their doorstep just waiting for some program to pre-empt the 135th showing of Eli Grba's "Yankeeography".

I've got to believe that Fordham has had a chance to build up their football "brand" over the years - and chosen not to do it. To a lesser extent, you could say the same for Georgetown football. Is it the league's fault that those two schools haven't done all they could have to get their games televised in two of the biggest media markets in the US?

[bluehenbillk]

The Patriot League's lack of success in recent years should cause alarm for them & add in the NEC commitment to getting better & it looks to me that the future of the Patriot teams looks cloudier than ever.

[Fordham]

... Furthermore, why wouldn't Fordham do more on this front? You would think Fordham in particular would have a leg up: not only did they televise the first-ever CFB game, they're in the biggest sports market in the world and the YES Network basically at their doorstep just waiting for some program to pre-empt the 135th showing of Eli Grba's "Yankeeography".

I've got to believe that Fordham has had a chance to build up their football "brand" over the years - and chosen not to do it. To a lesser extent, you could say the same for Georgetown football. Is it the league's fault that those two schools haven't done all they could have to get their games televised in two of the biggest media markets in the US?
It's a good question but when you mention NYC as a plus, it's also clearly a minus. Given the available programming, it's tougher to get YES pumped up a Fordham game than it is the local Easton or Hamilton cable system about Lehigh, Lafayette or Colgate imo.

More important, though, is simply money and effort. My understanding as of last year or possibly the year before is that Fordham would have to put up about $60K to have a game televised. Those costs could be offset by any advertising revenue you could generate but that requires the 'effort' part. Given that we do a horrendous job overall of marketing our marquee sport ('hoops'), it's a ridiculous longshot imo to think that our athletic dept. is going to front that kind of money and then put in the advertising effort for the football program.

(note that the above is how it was described to me when this topic came up, so I'm relying on the person's take I heard it from in terms of how games get televised).

[Model Citizen]

Did I say they did?

Being as charitable as I can, it appeared you were making a comparison between league champions. But maybe you were just wasting everyone's time.

[Franks Tanks]

Being as charitable as I can, it appeared you were making a comparison between league champions. But maybe you were just wasting everyone's time.

Maybe you are just stupid. Michigan may not have won the league last year but it is clear they are one of the premier teams in the Big 10 that challenge for the Big 10 title most years. My point is that one game does mean something, but the overall body of work is much more significant and constantly harping on one game is irresponsible.

[DetroitFlyer]

The reason is simple. It is much easier to achieve good grades at Dayton due to easier classes, majors and grade inflation. Patriot League schools do not have majors like Exercise Science, Physical Education, and Sports Management where jocks can slip in and get good grades relatively easily. Patriot and Ivy FB players mostly have majors like Econ, Engineering, Political Science, English etc. these are very difficult and demanding courses at the PL and Ivy schools, and this is why we dont have guys all over the place with 3.8 GPA's.

The fact is the profile of incoming recruits to the PL is much higher then at Dayton. Do the PL kids get dumb over the next 4 years?? Of course not they are taking harder classes and getting graded on a more difficult scale.

Yep, just like these Dayton footballers taking those easy classes so that they can end up on the All-Academic PFL team. Keep trying....xlolx

http://www.udayton.edu/Stories/Story/?contentId=8617

http://daytonflyers.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/kelly_brian00.html

http://daytonflyers.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/vermillion_chris00.html

http://daytonflyers.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/swartz_matt00.html

http://daytonflyers.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/mccormick_patrick00.html

[Franks Tanks]

Yep, just like these Dayton footballers taking those easy classes so that they can end up on the All-Academic PFL team. Keep trying....xlolx

http://www.udayton.edu/Stories/Story/?contentId=8617

http://daytonflyers.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/kelly_brian00.html

http://daytonflyers.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/vermillion_chris00.html

http://daytonflyers.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/swartz_matt00.html

http://daytonflyers.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/mccormick_patrick00.html


Congratulations, those are some impressive student athletes. However they are a few cases and dont change my overall statements and sentiments posted above.

[DetroitFlyer]

Congratulations, those are some impressive student athletes. However they are a few cases and dont change my overall statements and sentiments posted above.


http://www.anygivensaturday.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24204

Here is a link to an article I posted about 2007 UD recruits. Check out the second post in the thread.... At least one PL fan "gets it". Dayton is recruiting top notch student-athletes. It is no mistake or fluke that these kids do well in school, whatever their chosen major. Dayton is chasing the same type of athletes that the PL and Ivy League are chasing. More and more, we are going head to head with both leagues. Some we win, lineman chose UD over Yale, running back chose UD over Fordham, some we lose running back chose Holy Cross over Dayton. I would put Dayton's football players up academically against any school in the land! Not many "general studies" majors on the UD Football team. Many more pre-med, engineering, business, finance, entrepreneurship, ( top 5 in the US program by the way ), and education majors than sports management majors! Dayton's football players excel because they are smart and motivated, not because Dayton is an "easier" school than any PL or Ivy school.

[DSUrocks07]

back on topic please....xnonono2x

[Franks Tanks]

http://www.anygivensaturday.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24204

Here is a link to an article I posted about 2007 UD recruits. Check out the second post in the thread.... At least one PL fan "gets it". Dayton is recruiting top notch student-athletes. It is no mistake or fluke that these kids do well in school, whatever their chosen major. Dayton is chasing the same type of athletes that the PL and Ivy League are chasing. More and more, we are going head to head with both leagues. Some we win, lineman chose UD over Yale, running back chose UD over Fordham, some we lose running back chose Holy Cross over Dayton. I would put Dayton's football players up academically against any school in the land! Not many "general studies" majors on the UD Football team. Many more pre-med, engineering, business, finance, entrepreneurship, ( top 5 in the US program by the way ), and education majors than sports management majors! Dayton's football players excel because they are smart and motivated, not because Dayton is an "easier" school than any PL or Ivy school.

You are making my point. You say the PL and Dayton recruit similar students to play football. If this is the case then why does Dayton have a million academic all americans while the Pl has a few here and there? Well the common factor is talented students, the variable is the school attended. More students with better grades = easier classes or more lenient grading. Look at Colgate for example. Colgate has the highest admission standard of any full league member (not counting g-town) and the usually lag behind when it comes to athletes on the PL honor role. Do they recruit lesser quality student-athletes? No way, their professors grade harder. Its simple deduction.

[Go...gate]

Agreed, but while those teams got better, the PL teams are not far removed from where they were in 2003.

But as to movement on scholarships, not making a decision is a decision. LFN can speak to this more clearly, but I think the PL has effectively decided not to push scholarships and this is part of the decline.

I agree. I know passionately Colgate 13 argued to the contrary, but I don't believe scholarships are on the PL horizon. Getting limited scholarships in BB and some other sports may have been as far as the PL Prexies would go.

[ngineer]

It's a good question but when you mention NYC as a plus, it's also clearly a minus. Given the available programming, it's tougher to get YES pumped up a Fordham game than it is the local Easton or Hamilton cable system about Lehigh, Lafayette or Colgate imo.

More important, though, is simply money and effort. My understanding as of last year or possibly the year before is that Fordham would have to put up about $60K to have a game televised. Those costs could be offset by any advertising revenue you could generate but that requires the 'effort' part. Given that we do a horrendous job overall of marketing our marquee sport ('hoops'), it's a ridiculous longshot imo to think that our athletic dept. is going to front that kind of money and then put in the advertising effort for the football program.

(note that the above is how it was described to me when this topic came up, so I'm relying on the person's take I heard it from in terms of how games get televised).

I agree that Fordham's (and Georgetown's) location in the 'big cities' hurts their exposure as they get lost to the back pages in deference to the professional teams. Lehigh and Lafayette are always page one for the Morning Call and Express-Times.
At the same time, L & L have been aggressive in marketing the product via the media. Lehigh, in addition to their package with TV2 in the Lehigh Valley, also has their games telecast on FoxSports Pittsburgh, giving them great exposure in western PA and Ohio.

[ngineer]

The reason is simple. It is much easier to achieve good grades at Dayton due to easier classes, majors and grade inflation. Patriot League schools do not have majors like Exercise Science, Physical Education, and Sports Management where jocks can slip in and get good grades relatively easily. Patriot and Ivy FB players mostly have majors like Econ, Engineering, Political Science, English etc. these are very difficult and demanding courses at the PL and Ivy schools, and this is why we dont have guys all over the place with 3.8 GPA's.
The fact is the profile of incoming recruits to the PL is much higher then at Dayton. Do the PL kids get dumb over the next 4 years?? Of course not they are taking harder classes and getting graded on a more difficult scale.

Excellent point. I remember back in 'my day', the GPA was much lower, and even with grade inflation nationally, the PL standards are known to be tough. I remember asking the law school recruiter from an excellent east coast university about my concern for my 'modest' GPA, and he responded that they were fully aware of Lehigh's stricter grading standards and added .5 to a Lehigh GPA. Now, that was 1974, but I think it is all relative.

[Go...gate]

The Patriot League's profile is being raised by playing teams from the PFL! The Dayton / Fordham series will be at least three games long and Lehigh has at least a two game series with Drake. Frankly, in 2008, the PL, the Ivy League and the PFL would do well to increase games against one another. The three leagues have far more similarity on the football front than they do with the rest of FCS.... The PFL brings a whole new dynamic to the equation, the ability to play competitive games across the country. All three leagues are now recruiting heavily on a national basis, and it would help the Northeastern teams to get out and play some games in Florida, California, North Carolina, Ohio, Iowa, etc. Just think about it, how many kids from the corn fields of Iowa have ever heard of Holy Cross or Lafayette? How many kids in Ohio have a clue who Colgate is, ( other than the toothpaste of course ). It is also a nice break for the fans.... A road trip to Dayton, Jacksonville or San Diego is far more interesting than playing in your own backyard all season. As near as I can tell, the PL has it made in the shade. Autobid, student / athletes that are almost on a par with Dayton's, minimal travel costs, and the ability to compete with virtually any team in FCS. Maybe aspiring to be the SoCon or Gateway is not that great an idea.... Does Lehigh really want the type of student athletes that choose to play at YSU? There is nothing wrong with being unique and filling your niche. YSU fills it niche quite well. Dayton fills it niche quite well. I think the PL on a whole does the same.

Does having "athletic scholarships" make it a bit easier in the world of FCS? Probably.... But what about an Ivy League school, a Patriot League school or a Dayton, San Diego, Drake, Davidson, etc. is "easy"? Think about it for a moment.... If you are a grad of an Ivy, PL or PFL school, do you expect life to come easy? My guess is no.... As such, folks associated with these schools are used to having to work just a bit harder than their State U counterparts. Of course this feeds directly into recruiting.... So you cannot take the 2.0, barely eligible superstar that a Northern Iowa may be able to take.... Big deal. You suck it up and you find that "superstar" that meets your stringent academic requirements and hope you can recruit him away from Dayton, Ohio! Maybe you should just enjoy the additional challenge, take pride in knowing it is not "easy" and frankly, ENJOY THE RIDE!

It is an interesting argument.

[Seawolf97]

The Patriot League's lack of success in recent years should cause alarm for them & add in the NEC commitment to getting better & it looks to me that the future of the Patriot teams looks cloudier than ever.

Looking at PL schedules Colgate has about the toughest September of any PL team. They open against 2 full scholarship teams on the road and then have Furman at home. Holy Cross has UMass at home and then Harvard. It is going to be interesting to see how both these clubs fair -knowing they are top tier PL teams with playoff potential.

[TheValleyRaider]

I remember asking the law school recruiter from an excellent east coast university about my concern for my 'modest' GPA, and he responded that they were fully aware of Lehigh's stricter grading standards and added .5 to a Lehigh GPA. Now, that was 1974, but I think it is all relative.

I heard the same thing regarding Colgate students applying to grad programs. Sometimes it's nice to have a reputation xnodx


Looking at PL schedules Colgate has about the toughest September of any PL team. They open against 2 full scholarship teams on the road and then have Furman at home.

And given our propensity for slow starts, sometimes the thought of opening with those 3 really scares the heck out of me xeekx xprayx

[Seawolf97]

I heard the same thing regarding Colgate students applying to grad programs. Sometimes it's nice to have a reputation xnodx



And given our propensity for slow starts, sometimes the thought of opening with those 3 really scares the heck out of me xeekx xprayx

We are going to be starting a new QB who could be a JC transfer or a 2nd year player from Michigan either should be interesting . I saw Furman play at Hofstra last year. Hofstra won but Furman was impressive.

[DetroitFlyer]

You are making my point. You say the PL and Dayton recruit similar students to play football. If this is the case then why does Dayton have a million academic all americans while the Pl has a few here and there? Well the common factor is talented students, the variable is the school attended. More students with better grades = easier classes or more lenient grading. Look at Colgate for example. Colgate has the highest admission standard of any full league member (not counting g-town) and the usually lag behind when it comes to athletes on the PL honor role. Do they recruit lesser quality student-athletes? No way, their professors grade harder. Its simple deduction.

I see it completely differently. First, ask yourself if the general student population from an academic perspective at Dayton is similar to any of the Patriot League schools. We may be close to Fordham, but we are not on a level of the PL just yet. Then, revisit your agreement that Dayton is recruiting "Patriot League Level" football players.... Do you see where I am going yet? OK, just to help you out.... Dayton's football players are not only great athletes, they are among the BEST students at UD as well! Many, if not most times, the football players perform better in the classroom than the general student body. Is that true at any PL school? Probably not. So, all of those Academic All Americans we produce has absolutely nothing to do with "easy" grading or majors at Dayton. It is simply a reflection on the type of student-athletes Dayton recruits and the performance of those student-athletes in the classroom and just as importantly, on the field! Remember, you do not become an Academic All American by standing on the sidelines. You must be a significant contributor to your team. The FACT is, Dayton does this better than all but two Division I schools that I referenced earlier.xnodx

[Franks Tanks]

I see it completely differently. First, ask yourself if the general student population from an academic perspective at Dayton is similar to any of the Patriot League schools. We may be close to Fordham, but we are not on a level of the PL just yet. Then, revisit your agreement that Dayton is recruiting "Patriot League Level" football players.... Do you see where I am going yet? OK, just to help you out.... Dayton's football players are not only great athletes, they are among the BEST students at UD as well! Many, if not most times, the football players perform better in the classroom than the general student body. Is that true at any PL school? Probably not. So, all of those Academic All Americans we produce has absolutely nothing to do with "easy" grading or majors at Dayton. It is simply a reflection on the type of student-athletes Dayton recruits and the performance of those student-athletes in the classroom and just as importantly, on the field! Remember, you do not become an Academic All American by standing on the sidelines. You must be a significant contributor to your team. The FACT is, Dayton does this better than all but two Division I schools that I referenced earlier.xnodx

PL student’s athletes are competitive with their peers in the classroom, but they do not stand out above. To do that they would have to be amongst the top 1%, as it is not easy to significantly stand out in the classroom at a PL school.

I will try to break it down as simply as possible. Using the statement (not sure it is a fact) that Dayton and the PL recruit football players who are similar in academic accomplishment and potential. Therefore both schools are in essence starting with a similar value when it comes to student performance and potential. Dayton produces more Academic All Americans in a given period then the entire PL? It doesn’t make a whole lot of sense considering the quality of the incoming student is relatively similar (theoretically) To have these consistent results their has to be some variable causing a difference in results. There can be a few explanations why Dayton gets many more academic all Americans with similar starting value.

1.) You simply do a better job marketing and getting these kids noticed for this honor. This could be a part of it as the folks that choose this honor come to Dayton and know they will find some kids. This can be a reason for some included, but not significant enough to explain the large difference.

2.) They take easier classes. Well I did look at the Dayton roster and most do have solid majors, so this doesn’t appear a reason.

3.) Therefore I come back to grade inflation/easier grading. PL student’s athletes have at least as much academic potential as the Dayton counterparts, and PL students athletes also work very hard. Then why do PL kids have worse GPA's??? The simple and only answer is easier grading at Dayton.

I also used the Colgate example in the PL. Colgate seems to consistently put fewer students Athletes on the PL honor role then the other schools. Are Colgate student’s dummies???? Hell No it is the hardest school in the league to get into---that fact is that overall Colgate grades more difficult then the other PL schools and have less kids receiving these honors. It is a simple concept

[Model Citizen]

Weak rationalization is your middle name.

[Franks Tanks]

Weak rationalization is your middle name.


Ok, my points are more rational then the assertion that Dayton has better students on the FB field. The stats of incoming classes etc. simply dont back this up.

[carney2]

I once ran for public office - and lost. The voters didn't give me any extra credit for my Patriot League diploma.

This is great, guys. Just like old times. You are so far off topic that you couldn't find your way back with a GPS. I was hoping that my post would be like throwing raw meat into a bear pit. You have exceeded expectations. Keep it up.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I once ran for public office - and lost. The voters didn't give me any extra credit for my Patriot League diploma.

This is great, guys. Just like old times. You are so far off topic that you couldn't find your way back with a GPS. I was hoping that my post would be like throwing raw meat into a bear pit. You have exceeded expectations. Keep it up.

You must spread some reputation around before...

xlolx

[Franks Tanks]

I once ran for public office - and lost. The voters didn't give me any extra credit for my Patriot League diploma.

This is great, guys. Just like old times. You are so far off topic that you couldn't find your way back with a GPS. I was hoping that my post would be like throwing raw meat into a bear pit. You have exceeded expectations. Keep it up.


Ya thanks, your killing my productivity again

[Pard94]

Ya thanks, your killing my productivity again

I can tell you as one who holds a title of "Director of Recruitment and Retention" in the real world, nothing turns a corporate recruiter's head quicker than that ever elusive degree from Dayton. puhlease.

[DFW HOYA]

Dayton has many good football players, given. But before we lapse into a debate on Academic All-Americans, note that awards start at the NCAA district (regional) level.

Dayton is listed in District IV, which encompasses I-AA teams in Ohio, Michigan, Kentucky, Tennessee, and Alabama, or roughly the I-65 to I-75 corridor, where there are compratively fewer I-AA schools nominating players. Colgate, Fordham, and Holy Cross are in District I (NY, NJ, New England) with Bucknell, Georgetown, Lehigh, and Lafayette in District II (PA, DE, MD, VA, WV, DC), both of which have more schools vying for these honors. It doesn't diminish UD's results, but it's not always a 1:1 comparison.

[Pard94]

Dayton has many good football players, given. But before we lapse into a debate on Academic All-Americans, note that awards start at the NCAA district (regional) level.

Dayton is listed in District IV, which encompasses I-AA teams in Ohio, Michigan, Kentucky, Tennessee, and Alabama, or roughly the I-65 to I-75 corridor, where there are compratively fewer I-AA schools nominating players. Colgate, Fordham, and Holy Cross are in District I (NY, NJ, New England) with Bucknell, Georgetown, Lehigh, and Lafayette in District II (PA, DE, MD, VA, WV, DC), both of which have more schools vying for these honors. It doesn't diminish UD's results, but it's not always a 1:1 comparison.


Yes. Excellent point. Another point to consider is...Dayton, on its best day, is not fit to hold the proverbial "jock" of the worst PL school on its worst day. That is another point that I think we can ill-afford to overlook in this debate.

[Franks Tanks]

Yes. Excellent point. Another point to consider is...Dayton, on its best day, is not fit to hold the proverbial "jock" of the worst PL school on its worst day. That is another point that I think we can ill-afford to overlook in this debate.

Dayton is still a quality school, but not a peer of PL schools for many reasons. Datyon is most simialr to its A-10 bretheren such as LaSalle, Duquense, St. Joe's, St. Bonny etc. Most Pl schools are liberal arts institutions, this is ceratinly not Dayton's case.

[Model Citizen]

Dayton is listed in District IV, which encompasses I-AA teams in Ohio, Michigan, Kentucky, Tennessee...

:cough: The smokescreen is choking me.xnutsx

Brandon Cramer was national Academic All-American of the Year, with a 4.0 in pre-med. I think your football admits at eastern colleges got their consideration for that award.

[DetroitFlyer]

Dayton is still a quality school, but not a peer of PL schools for many reasons. Datyon is most simialr to its A-10 bretheren such as LaSalle, Duquense, St. Joe's, St. Bonny etc. Most Pl schools are liberal arts institutions, this is ceratinly not Dayton's case.

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/usnews/edu/college/directory/brief/drglance_3127_brief.php

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/brief/t1natudoc_brief.php

Not really.... Dayton is now considered a National University. We were ranked at 112 in the last US News & World Reports. Not similar at all to the A10 schools you referenced above.

http://www.udri.udayton.edu/

UD is a serious research university. UD is also a doctoral university, again not much like many of the A10 schools you referenced.

A bit dated, but it is all I can quickly find this afternoon:

http://universityofdayton.blogs.com/local/2006/06/index.html

v No. 1 in Ohio for research and development sponsored by the Department of Defense and for aerospace research;
v No. 1 in Ohio and No. 2 in the nation in materials research funded by the federal government;
v No. 1 Catholic university in the nation conducting non-medical research and ranks second among all Ohio universities in non-medical research;
v In 2005, UD attracted more than $70 million in external research funding;
v UD increased its sponsored research volume from $40 million in 2001 to more than $70 million in 2005, an increase of 75 percent.

Dayton continues to focus on developing its national reputation as a national, doctoral university.

As for a UD degree, it has served me very well! The company I work for hires UD Engineers every year!

According to the UD alumni website there are 684 UD Alumns in Boston, 3,526 in New York, 1487 in Philadelphia, and 2,756 in Washington/Baltimore. Great news in that I'm sure that region of the country can use all the UD grads it can get its hands on to manage those folks that graduate from other schools up that way....xlolx

[LBPop]

According to the UD alumni website there are 684 UD Alumns in Boston, 3,526 in New York, 1487 in Philadelphia, and 2,756 in Washington/Baltimore. Great news in that I'm sure that region of the country can use all the UD grads it can get its hands on to manage those folks that graduate from other schools up that way....xlolx

Good friend of LBSis headed to Dayton in the fall. I'll be sure to tell my daughter to be nice to her friend so she can get a good job after graduation. xrolleyesx

[DetroitFlyer]

Good friend of LBSis headed to Dayton in the fall. I'll be sure to tell my daughter to be nice to her friend so she can get a good job after graduation. xrolleyesx


Now you are talking.... Glad to see some here still have a sense of humor! I'm sure your daughter's friend will have a very good experience at UD. Now, if we can just manage to get a Dayton / Georgetown football series going....

[Go...gate]

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/usnews/edu/college/directory/brief/drglance_3127_brief.php

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/brief/t1natudoc_brief.php

Not really.... Dayton is now considered a National University. We were ranked at 112 in the last US News & World Reports. Not similar at all to the A10 schools you referenced above.

http://www.udri.udayton.edu/

UD is a serious research university. UD is also a doctoral university, again not much like many of the A10 schools you referenced.

A bit dated, but it is all I can quickly find this afternoon:

http://universityofdayton.blogs.com/local/2006/06/index.html

v No. 1 in Ohio for research and development sponsored by the Department of Defense and for aerospace research;
v No. 1 in Ohio and No. 2 in the nation in materials research funded by the federal government;
v No. 1 Catholic university in the nation conducting non-medical research and ranks second among all Ohio universities in non-medical research;
v In 2005, UD attracted more than $70 million in external research funding;
v UD increased its sponsored research volume from $40 million in 2001 to more than $70 million in 2005, an increase of 75 percent.

Dayton continues to focus on developing its national reputation as a national, doctoral university.

As for a UD degree, it has served me very well! The company I work for hires UD Engineers every year!

According to the UD alumni website there are 684 UD Alumns in Boston, 3,526 in New York, 1487 in Philadelphia, and 2,756 in Washington/Baltimore. Great news in that I'm sure that region of the country can use all the UD grads it can get its hands on to manage those folks that graduate from other schools up that way....xlolx

Sounds like you should join the Patriot League.

[Go...gate]

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/usnews/edu/college/directory/brief/drglance_3127_brief.php

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/brief/t1natudoc_brief.php

Not really.... Dayton is now considered a National University. We were ranked at 112 in the last US News & World Reports. Not similar at all to the A10 schools you referenced above.

http://www.udri.udayton.edu/

UD is a serious research university. UD is also a doctoral university, again not much like many of the A10 schools you referenced.

A bit dated, but it is all I can quickly find this afternoon:

http://universityofdayton.blogs.com/local/2006/06/index.html

v No. 1 in Ohio for research and development sponsored by the Department of Defense and for aerospace research;
v No. 1 in Ohio and No. 2 in the nation in materials research funded by the federal government;
v No. 1 Catholic university in the nation conducting non-medical research and ranks second among all Ohio universities in non-medical research;
v In 2005, UD attracted more than $70 million in external research funding;
v UD increased its sponsored research volume from $40 million in 2001 to more than $70 million in 2005, an increase of 75 percent.

Dayton continues to focus on developing its national reputation as a national, doctoral university.

As for a UD degree, it has served me very well! The company I work for hires UD Engineers every year!

According to the UD alumni website there are 684 UD Alumns in Boston, 3,526 in New York, 1487 in Philadelphia, and 2,756 in Washington/Baltimore. Great news in that I'm sure that region of the country can use all the UD grads it can get its hands on to manage those folks that graduate from other schools up that way....xlolx

A lady lawyer whom I dated for awhile and remain very good friends with got her law degree from Dayton after going undergrad at Villanova. In her opinion, there was no comparison between the two schools; Dayton was much better and much more serious about continuing to improve itself. So what you say makes sense.

[Model Citizen]

Dayton Flyer exposed...

[LBPop]

A lady lawyer whom I dated for awhile and remain very good friends with got her law degree from Dayton after going undergrad at Villanova. In her opinion, there was no comparison between the two schools; Dayton was much better and much more serious about continuing to improve itself. So what you say makes sense.

Geez, some 'Nova alums and some Delaware fans might have a field day with that comment. xnodxxlolx

[RichH2]

I thought this thread was about our inferiority not the Pioneer search for status. No disrespect to Dayton or any other Pioneer schools but their issues are not ours as of yet.
Patriot is at a very serious crossroads now and for the next year or 2. While I admit to being in my mid summer depression due to lack of real news, it does not appear that PL is going to be proactive in establishing a niche for itself,as other than as an attachment to the Ivies.
Our only other alternative is some concept to facilitate competition both with the Ivies who have amped up their programs overthe last 3 yrs and scholarship schools.
A broad Scholarship program( 40 +) would to be the easy answer but probably unattainable given the disparity in financial commitments in the PL. Does less than that help? Will the AI help? Probably a bit with most especially Lehigh. Is that enuf? Not hardly.
Can a workable combination of merit and need grants be set up ?

[DFW HOYA]

A broad Scholarship program( 40 +) would to be the easy answer but probably unattainable given the disparity in financial commitments in the PL. Does less than that help? Will the AI help? Probably a bit with most especially Lehigh. Is that enuf? Not hardly.
Can a workable combination of merit and need grants be set up ?

Two PL schools offer no merit aid to begin with (Colgate, Georgetown). But I think a larger question needs to be asked at some point and one which will either be answered by the PL...or for them.

[georgiaeagle]

A broad Scholarship program( 40 +) would to be the easy answer but probably unattainable given the disparity in financial commitments in the PL. Does less than that help? Will the AI help? Probably a bit with most especially Lehigh. Is that enuf? Not hardly.
Can a workable combination of merit and need grants be set up ?

Can somebody please clarify what the Patriot financial model is? They don't give "scholarships" but aren't "non-scholarship". Does aid vary by school?

Help me, I'm lost. xconfusedx

[DFW HOYA]

Can somebody please clarify what the Patriot financial model is? They don't give "scholarships" but aren't "non-scholarship". Does aid vary by school?


Patriot schools do not offer athletic scholarships (which are offered by most schools regardless of grades or of need), but provide preferential financial aid (e.g., offering grants instead of loans) to athletes that meet a minimum "index" of GPA and SAT scores. By contrast, Ivy and Pioneer teams do not offer aid based on athletic ability, so the best football player at Jacksonville might get the same mix of loans and grants that any other student would get.

Aid varies considerably among PL schools....well, some of them, anyway. Fordham offers probably close to 60 equivalencies with its $4 million budget; put another way, if Fordham converted its financial aid budget to scholarships, they'd be close to a 60 scholarship program.

Colgate and Holy Cross follow Fordham, with Lehigh and Lafayette close behind and Bucknell closing the gap. Those six are the most competitive on the field as well. Georgetown's budget is between $1.2-2.4 million behind the other schools. (Georgetown has no academic scholarships/merit aid for its top students, so there's no workaround there, either.)

[bison137]

Can somebody please clarify what the Patriot financial model is? They don't give "scholarships" but aren't "non-scholarship". Does aid vary by school?

Help me, I'm lost. xconfusedx



PL schools do not give football "scholarships". Every potential athlete must fill out the standard forms for need-based aid. However need-based aid can be structured in more favorable ways than for the average student, which makes that financial aid athletically-based in the eyes of the NCAA. A common example would be to take loans that a student qualifies for on the basis of need and turn them into grants. Also instead of offering some of the need-based aid in the form of a part-time job on campus, a football player might receive that portion of the money as a grant. If a student does not qualify for need-based aid, then there is no money.

Very occasionally a player may also receive some sort of academic scholarship, but the school must certify that the athlete who received that money met the same standards as the non-athletes. I'm not sure of how many PL schools have non-need based academic scholarships, but I do know that Bucknell has very few dollars available in this category and virtually none of it goes to football players. More merit aid goes to dancers and musicians than to athletes (other than basketball players).

[MplsBison]

And this model is proven incorrect by schools like Stanford, Duke, Northwestern, Boston College, etc.

[georgiaeagle]

Thanks for the great explanations. At least I understand now. I'm sure it made sense in a conference room when they came up with the plan.

[Model Citizen]

Does the NCAA distinguish between 55 equivalencies at Colgate and 55 equivalencies at South Dakota State?

Anyone?

[DFW HOYA]

And this model is proven incorrect by schools like Stanford, Duke, Northwestern, Boston College, etc.

The model which you are alluding to has nothing to do with solely private schools (Towson, for example, was once in the PL), nor with academic credentials (although BC is a step behind those others you cite).

While it varies between schools, the Patriot financial aid model is a by-product of a fundamental difference between their schools and the school you cite above: revenue. Stanford, Duke, Northwestern and Boston College (and by extention, Vanderbilt, SMU, Rice, etc.) have significant on-campus facilities which can draw fans and earn sustainable revenue for the program, and particiapte in conferences where there are TV and other ancillary revenue opportunties. The PL has neither--with the possible exception of Fitton Field (Holy Cross), not one of the seven schools has the ability to host I-A level opponents on its campus, and absent TV revenue, the ability to build a major revenue stream for football.

[NFLCB2]

I don't see what the problem is? Are people looking for the PL play more competitive football? I don't PL is an inferior league by any means. They have their good years and they have bad ones (every league does). Id say the PL league is football is its purest form. I took a few visits back in the day to some of those school the one things they could offer and that is the most important things is a good job after college, very good connections. Now if your looking for football like CAA or Great West or Big Sky your not going to find that in the PL they take their academics serious and give kids a chance to play sports. They dont have athletes who are just there to play sports and make the grades. Too me their athletes compete on the field and inside the class room they really work hard for no money so you have to tip your hats to these guys.

[MplsBison]

The model which you are alluding to has nothing to do with solely private schools (Towson, for example, was once in the PL), nor with academic credentials (although BC is a step behind those others you cite).

While it varies between schools, the Patriot financial aid model is a by-product of a fundamental difference between their schools and the school you cite above: revenue. Stanford, Duke, Northwestern and Boston College (and by extention, Vanderbilt, SMU, Rice, etc.) have significant on-campus facilities which can draw fans and earn sustainable revenue for the program, and particiapte in conferences where there are TV and other ancillary revenue opportunties. The PL has neither--with the possible exception of Fitton Field (Holy Cross), not one of the seven schools has the ability to host I-A level opponents on its campus, and absent TV revenue, the ability to build a major revenue stream for football.

If the Colgate athletic department is paying for 50 equivalencies worth of need based grants for those football players that qualify for the need, then they have the money to pay for 50 equivalencies worth of football ability merit based grants.



The only point left to debate is the philosophical one about whether football ability alone should merit a grant.


I say that if the athlete's academic ability is good enough to gain entrance into the school, then yes it does.


But to this day, a PL athletic department will only give a football player that has already gained admission to the school a grant if he has a financial need. IMO, that goes against the philosophy of DI athletics.

[NFLCB2]

If the Colgate athletic department is paying for 50 equivalencies worth of need based grants for those football players that qualify for the need, then they have the money to pay for 50 equivalencies worth of football ability merit based grants.



The only point left to debate is the philosophical one about whether football ability alone merits a grant.


I say that if the athlete's academic ability is good enough to gain entrance into the school, then yes it does.

I think they should just leave it as is. They may encounter a whole different type of football. The media's flashing lights, keep it pure in the PL. Gladiators on the gridiron.xnonox Not kids putting on a show because of the cameras. PL has to keep its Integrityxrulesx

[MplsBison]

I don't see anything wrong with that.


I just don't understand why you wouldn't rather be with your philosophical colleages in the NESCAC, then?

[Fordham]

If the Colgate athletic department is paying for 50 equivalencies worth of need based grants for those football players that qualify for the need, then they have the money to pay for 50 equivalencies worth of football ability merit based grants.
I agree with this and feel that Colgate should be able to spend that money the way they see fit v. giving it only to those that meet certain financial need requirements.



The only point left to debate is the philosophical one about whether football ability alone should merit a grant. Not true -there are other points left to debate and the one that you mention isn't on the table since even with scholarships, every PL school wants it's players to be representative of its student body academically.

The real question to me is whether or not the PL is going to treat football like it does some other sports and allow each school to decide how to spend its budget money as it sees fit. As DFW alluded, we likely could convert automatically to full scholarship at somewhere in the 50's to low 60's without changing our budget one bit.

What that would get us is the ability to go after mid to upper income kids and offer them full rides v. an often confusing need based offer that many parents view as much less secure for 4 years than a full scholarship. Right now if a parent makes even a moderate income, they are likely to at most have their kid get a partial scholarship v. full. At most PL schools a 1/2 scholarship would still require around $20K out of pocket for the family each year. Now imagine that same kid having a full ride from Delaware, 'Nova, Albany or Stony Brook. While we on occassion will land one of these kids, they're the exception rather than the rule ... and understandably so. Parents with even a few excess $$ didn't get there by making bad financial decisions.

Ironically, the end result of all of this madness is a) dramatically increased recruiting budgets as we now need to recruit nationally in order to find student athletes either poor or rich enough to not have to worry about the financials and b) since we're recruiting at the margins of the entire potential recruiting pool, we're oftentimes taking less academically gifted students than we would have to if we could actually recruit the entire market. Maddening.



I say that if the athlete's academic ability is good enough to gain entrance into the school, then yes it does

But to this day, a PL athletic department will only give a football player that has already gained admission to the school a grant if he has a financial need. IMO, that goes against the philosophy of DI athletics. and as has been beaten to death on this board, you'd also be in disagreement with every single PL poster who feels that your idea goes against the philosophy of higher education.

[MplsBison]

If a player can show that he has the academics to make it at the school, what the hell does financial need have to do with anything?!


The only possible argument is if you believe that all students, regardless of any type of ability (academic, athletic, arts, etc.) should pay full price for school out of their own pocket minus whatever federal aid they qualify for.

And like I've said again and again: if you believe that you're in the wrong division. Some people in this world have special ability and they should be rewarded for it.

[Syntax Error]

Overall the point is simple: if a player can show that he has the academics to make it at the school, what the hell does financial need have to do with anything?!http://www.cateringdirectuk.co.uk/shop/images/Smiley%20confused.jpg

[DFW HOYA]

Overall the point is simple: if a player can show that he has the academics to make it at the school, what the hell does financial need have to do with anything?!

You're missing a key point here. The National Letter of Intent program essentially guarantees admission to a prospect based on the acceptance of a scholarship offer, as long as he/she graduates from high school. (They may not qualify, of course, but they are accepted.) PL schools do not participate in the NLI program and therefore can separate the admission decision from a financial aid decision.

The NCAA does not run the NLI program and it is not a condition of membership.

[MplsBison]

What's wrong with telling a kid "if you can gain admission to our school on your academic merit, the athletic department will pay for your entire education if you'll play football for us"?



So once again, the question: what the hell does financial need have to do with anything?

[bison137]

And this model is proven incorrect by schools like Stanford, Duke, Northwestern, Boston College, etc.

Schools like Duke and Boston College don't follow a model where their football and basketball players must be approximately the same academically as their student body. (Neither do Stanford and Northwestern for that matter, but they are closer.) For example Duke has taken in basketball players whose SAT's were almost 500 points below the average of the rest of the student body. The average SAT for Duke's basketball players, based on the last available report, was 968, with some players under 900. The average PL basketball player has an SAT a couple hundred points higher than that. In football there is a huge difference as well.

So the Duke model and the PL model are very different.

[MplsBison]

Bison, lets stay on one track here:


given that a potential PL player has got what it takes academically, what the hell does financial need have to do with anything?

[Syntax Error]

given that a potential PL player has got what it takes academically, what the hell does financial need have to do with anything?it is okay to admit you need it explained to you (many here on AGS and around the country do) but please read the explanations. Just being smart does not get you into a school. Remember tuition costs? Hence need-based aid to football players = equivalencies.

[Go...gate]

I don't see anything wrong with that.


I just don't understand why you wouldn't rather be with your philosophical colleages in the NESCAC, then?

Because we aim higher than they do.

[MplsBison]

Admission comes first. Then you figure out a way to pay for it.



So once more, lets even go so far this time as to say that a potential PL athlete has gained admission to a PL school:


what does his financial need have to do with him getting a grant from the athletic department?

[bison137]

Admission comes first. Then you figure out a way to pay for it.



So once more, lets even go so far this time as to say that a potential PL athlete has gained admission to a PL school:


what does his financial need have to do with him getting a grant from the athletic department?


There is no point in continuing this discussion. You are incapable of ever understanding it.

[MplsBison]

IE, I've finally started asking the questions that the almighty AGS PL group doesn't have answers for.

So they just throw ad homs like any other AGS poster. So much for your overpriced education, I guess.

[Go...gate]

IE, I've finally started asking the questions that the almighty AGS PL group doesn't have answers for.

So they just throw ad homs like any other AGS poster. So much for your overpriced education, I guess.


Say what???? xconfusedx

[MplsBison]

Why can't you answer the question?


Why won't a PL athletic department award a grant to a starting football player if his financial need is deemed to be too low?

[Go...gate]

Why can't you answer the question?


Why won't a PL athletic department award a grant to a starting football player if his financial need is deemed to be too low?

If he can't do the schoolwork, why should they?

[MplsBison]

How could he be a starter on a PL team if he couldn't do the school work?



PL athletic departments would not give a 4 year starter a grant if his financial need was deemed too high.

Why?

[NFLCB2]

Because doing the schoolwork has nothing to do with starting on the field. PL shouldn't lower their standards. They can afford to go there from loans and grants that way they utilize their abilities because they are paying for it. Not wasting their time because the school is paying for it. They have had this rules for years no sense in changing it now. I understand the economy is going up but with the PL education you really get your bang for your buck.

[CrusaderBob]

Why can't you answer the question?


Why won't a PL athletic department award a grant to a starting football player if his financial need is deemed to be too low?

The answer is simple and you answered it earlier yourself.

At formation of the league the schools were committed to the principle that athletic ability, would not be rewarded any more than artistic ability or academic ability and so should not be eligible for more aid than any other student.

Simply put, why should a guy who can throw a football be eligible for a full ride when an equally intelligent guy who can sing, dance, paint, play an instrument, or possesses some other special talent etc. is not.

Now could a football player earn an academic scholarship outside of the federal aid for which they were eligible, sure, but it would be based on their academic, not athletic ability.

It's a commitment to that principle. Period.

[MplsBison]

But the PL does give grants to football players if they meet a certain financial need.



So would you care explaining what financial need has to do with anything?

[Franks Tanks]

I don't see what the problem is? Are people looking for the PL play more competitive football? I don't PL is an inferior league by any means. They have their good years and they have bad ones (every league does). Id say the PL league is football is its purest form. I took a few visits back in the day to some of those school the one things they could offer and that is the most important things is a good job after college, very good connections. Now if your looking for football like CAA or Great West or Big Sky your not going to find that in the PL they take their academics serious and give kids a chance to play sports. They dont have athletes who are just there to play sports and make the grades. Too me their athletes compete on the field and inside the class room they really work hard for no money so you have to tip your hats to these guys.

Most PL football players recieve aid for playing football through need based aid. Formulas are fuzzy and shady and hard to pin down, but the fact is this. If a PL school wants you bad enough they will give you enough aid to make it very affordable to attend.

[Franks Tanks]

But the PL does give grants to football players if they meet a certain financial need.



So would care explaining what financial need has to do with anything?


The idea is giving the student what they need to afford to attend. We dont care if you like it or not, but it is the rules we play by and were decided upon during the formation of the league. WTF do you care so much anyway?

[ngineer]

Admission comes first. Then you figure out a way to pay for it.



So once more, lets even go so far this time as to say that a potential PL athlete has gained admission to a PL school:


what does his financial need have to do with him getting a grant from the athletic department?

Because the philosophy has been for many years that athletic grants should be based on need. That someone who comes from a very wealthy family should not get money that can be used to assist someone, who due to modest means, would never have the opportunity to attend a PL school.
It is soley a matter of philosophy.

[MplsBison]

Yes I know it's purely philosophy.


It's not the DI philosophy, that's for sure.


The DI philosophy has always been and always will be to award student athletes based on athletic merit regardless of their financial need.


To deviate from that philosophy is a sign that you belong in another division.

[Go...gate]

But the PL does give grants to football players if they meet a certain financial need.



So would you care explaining what financial need has to do with anything?

ONLY IF THEY ARE ADMITTED, WHICH MEANS THEY ARE ACADEMICALLY REPRESENTATIVE OF THE OTHER MEMBERS OF THEIR CLASS AND SCHOOL.

This is getting tiresome.

[Go...gate]

Yes I know it's purely philosophy.


It's not the DI philosophy, that's for sure.


The DI philosophy has always been and always will be to award student athletes based on athletic merit regardless of their financial need.


To deviate from that philosophy is a sign that you belong in another division.


Based on what???

[MplsBison]

Gate I was way ahead of you a couple pages ago.


Go back and read where I was already assuming that the athlete in question was already qualified academically.


Then go ahead and dust yourself off after you realized that I just knocked you off your high horse.

[ngineer]

Yes I know it's purely philosophy.


It's not the DI philosophy, that's for sure.


The DI philosophy has always been and always will be to award student athletes based on athletic merit regardless of their financial need.


To deviate from that philosophy is a sign that you belong in another division.

We like the challenge of D-I...The PL schools have been known as institutions of 'over-achievers', and you get there by 'playing up'. We accept the challenge and when we win the victory is so much sweeter!xnodx

It's the way COLLEGIATE football was meant to be played.

[MDFAN]

Based on what???

What philosophy would it be. I can't imagine that Patriot League admissions standards would violate any DI "philosophy".

[Go...gate]

Gate I was way ahead of you a couple pages ago.


Go back and read where I was already assuming that the athlete in question was already qualified academically.


Then go ahead and dust yourself off after you realized that I just knocked you off your high horse.

I know you did - I'm doing the same thing you do incessantly, which is to say the same thing no matter what the facts are. Under what standard is PL football not Division I? Certainly no objective standard established anywhere. Certainly no standard based upon on-the-field performance. The only standard which appears to be "offended" or "violated" is that which forms the basis for your opinion that we are not Division I or otherwise belong in the NESCAC. That standard exists only in your mind.

[Go...gate]

What philosophy would it be. I can't imagine that Patriot League admissions standards would violate any DI "philosophy".

They do not violate any philosophy or standard. We need no waiver to compete.

[MDFAN]

They do not violate any philosophy or standard. We need no waiver to compete.

So we must only violate MPLSBISON's philosophy!!

[Go...gate]

So we must only violate MPLSBISON's philosophy!!

Bingo.

[Franks Tanks]

Yes I know it's purely philosophy.


It's not the DI philosophy, that's for sure.


The DI philosophy has always been and always will be to award student athletes based on athletic merit regardless of their financial need.


To deviate from that philosophy is a sign that you belong in another division.


Major college football existed for a long time before schools gave scholarships. I believe scholly's werent instituted until the 50's at some pont????? Therefore college football was huge and competitive WITHOUT ATHLETIC SCHOLLY"S

[MplsBison]

I have no problem with only awarding institutional need based aid (Holy Cross, Gtown, Ivies, DIII, etc.).


I have no problem accepting the fact that the PL is as competitive as any of the other autobid conferences.


I have no problem accepting the fact that the average student athlete in the PL is on another level academically than the other autobid conferences.


If a student athlete is admitted to a PL school, he is very smart.
If a student athlete is recruited to play football at a PL school, he is a very good athlete.



IF HE'S SMART ENOUGH TO GET IN AND HE'S GOOD ENOUGH TO PLAY, GIVE HIM MONEY!!!! WHAT THE HELL DOES HIS PARENT'S INCOME LEVEL HAVE TO DO WITH IT?!?!!?!?!!?!?!?

[MplsBison]

Consider this scenario:


a 3 time all state QB is admitted to a PL school on his 3.9 GPA and 1500 SAT.

He redshirts and then is a 4 year starter for a PL school, leading the team to 4 PL championships.



His parent's income is 125k a year. Therefore he qualifies for no federal aid.



Just picking on one school: Lehigh averaged almost 10k fans a game and brought in 2.85 million dollars revenue for the 07 season.




And yet, given the above, the Lehigh athletic department would not give this young man a single cent of athletic merit aid to help pay for his $250,000 education.

[DFW HOYA]

IF HE'S SMART ENOUGH TO GET IN AND HE'S GOOD ENOUGH TO PLAY, GIVE HIM MONEY!!!! WHAT THE HELL DOES HIS PARENT'S INCOME LEVEL HAVE TO DO WITH IT?!?!!?!?!!?!?!?

I can't speak for the other six PL schools, only what applies at Georgetown.

Every student is guaranteed need-based aid, an amount equal to 100% of the gap between what the family can afford (per the FAFSA) and the total cost of education. To do this, Georgetown offers no merit-based aid--it cannot afford both. You can be #1 in your class with a 1600 SAT, and if you don't qualify for aid, you won't get it.

(Here is where Mpls Bison says "Of course they will! ", but note that when it comes to federally funded aid programs, these schools have to enforce the rules consistently or be subject to significant penalties.)

As to sports, the Big East conference allows Georgetown to offer athletic scholarships without regard to need (i.e., Patrick Ewing Jr. got a full ride and his dad was not paying $47,000 a year for him to attend). All but three of Georgetown's 29 sports fall under the conference, though not all offer full scholarships. The sports outside the Big East are men's rowing (not an NCAA sport), coed sailing (not an NCAA sport), and football.

Because GU is playing football in the Patriot League, the league's rules do not allow that type of scholarship aid. In the scenario that PE Jr. was a star QB and not a forward, his family would have to pay his tuition because the PL maintains need-based giving only.

Finally, (and I know I'm swimming upstream for M-Bison to have any empathy to this issue), Georgetown has considerably less need-based football money to give than the other PL schools, about half or less. This is due to a lot of factors that limit football revenue, including an ongoing facility issue and the higher operating cost to maintain the sport versus other PL schools.

Anyway, A recruit may get a grant, but fewer will get full rides compared to their PL peers, and fewer still than CAA schools. It's a complicated subject and not as simple as you might otherwise dismiss it as...unless you say "Join The Big East in football!"...And THAT's for another topic.

[CrusaderBob]

Consider this scenario:


a 3 time all state QB is admitted to a PL school on his 3.9 GPA and 1500 SAT.

He redshirts and then is a 4 year starter for a PL school, leading the team to 4 PL championships.



His parent's income is 125k a year. Therefore he qualifies for no federal aid.



Just picking on one school: Lehigh averaged almost 10k fans a game and brought in 2.85 million dollars revenue for the 07 season.




And yet, given the above, the Lehigh athletic department would not give this young man a single cent of athletic merit aid to help pay for his $250,000 education.

YES!!! Apparently he can be taught! You are correct M-Bison - except he can't redshirt in the PL unless he is injured.

And before you talk about the $2.85 million in revenue generated by the football team and the labors of this all-america QB and others like him, don't forget to offset that by $2.96 million expenses for Lehigh's football program.

It's philopsophy. As I said, as institutions with the primary misson of education, the PL schools do not believe that your hypothetical QB should recieve more aid/academic scholarship than the virtuoso piano player with the same family income.

[MplsBison]

I can't speak for the other six PL schools, only what applies at Georgetown.

Every student is guaranteed need-based aid, an amount equal to 100% of the gap between what the family can afford (per the FAFSA) and the total cost of education. To do this, Georgetown offers no merit-based aid--it cannot afford both. You can be #1 in your class with a 1600 SAT, and if you don't qualify for aid, you won't get it.

(Here is where Mpls Bison says "Of course they will! ", but note that when it comes to federally funded aid programs, these schools have to enforce the rules consistently or be subject to significant penalties.)

As to sports, the Big East conference allows Georgetown to offer athletic scholarships without regard to need (i.e., Patrick Ewing Jr. got a full ride and his dad was not paying $47,000 a year for him to attend). All but three of Georgetown's 29 sports fall under the conference, though not all offer full scholarships. The sports outside the Big East are men's rowing (not an NCAA sport), coed sailing (not an NCAA sport), and football.

Because GU is playing football in the Patriot League, the league's rules do not allow that type of scholarship aid. In the scenario that PE Jr. was a star QB and not a forward, his family would have to pay his tuition because the PL maintains need-based giving only.

Finally, (and I know I'm swimming upstream for M-Bison to have any empathy to this issue), Georgetown has considerably less need-based football money to give than the other PL schools, about half or less. This is due to a lot of factors that limit football revenue, including an ongoing facility issue and the higher operating cost to maintain the sport versus other PL schools.

Anyway, A recruit may get a grant, but fewer will get full rides compared to their PL peers, and fewer still than CAA schools. It's a complicated subject and not as simple as you might otherwise dismiss it as...unless you say "Join The Big East in football!"...And THAT's for another topic.

Allow me to summarize and paraphrase your post:

the PL allows need based aid.



I know that already!


WHY?!?!, is the question I'm repeatedly asking and no one is answering!

[MplsBison]

YES!!! Apparently he can be taught! You are correct M-Bison - except he can't redshirt in the PL unless he is injured.

And before you talk about the $2.85 million in revenue generated by the football team and the labors of this all-america QB and others like him, don't forget to offset that by $2.96 million expenses for Lehigh's football program.

It's philopsophy. As I said, as institutions with the primary misson of education, the PL schools do not believe that your hypothetical QB should recieve more aid/academic scholarship than the virtuoso piano player with the same family income.


So all that would have to happen is that his parents only make 40k a year and now you're prepared to pay off that young man's entire education for him?



And that's seems perfectly normal and fair to you? I'd call it discrimination and say it merits a federal investigation.

[DFW HOYA]

WHY?!?!, is the question I'm repeatedly asking and no one is answering!

Because they choose to.

[Franks Tanks]

So all that would have to happen is that his parents only make 40k a year and now you're prepared to pay off that young man's entire education for him?



And that's seems perfectly normal and fair to you? I'd call it discrimination and say it merits a federal investigation.


You really are stupid. How do you think federal financial aid is parceled up--by need...hello. This is what we do and It does not descriminate. Again I will tell you major college football existed for many years without scholarships and was wildly popular.

[DSUrocks07]

You really are stupid. How do you think federal financial aid is parceled up--by need...hello. This is what we do and It does not descriminate. Again I will tell you major college football existed for many years without scholarships and was wildly popular.

Rules of the Internet...

13. Do not argue with a troll—it means that they win.

xrotatehx

[andy7171]

Nothing helps along a sleepy Monday morning as a reading a nice conversation involving MPLS!

[andy7171]

Rules of the Internet...

13. Do not argue with a troll—it means that they win.

xrotatehx

xlolx xlolx xlolx

They bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience!

[Ruler]

Not to cloud the issue, but isin't this a litle hypocritical from an institutional standpoint? If You play hoops at Georgetown you can recieve a full athletic scholarship. If you play football you can't due to philosphy of the PL?

Same goes forthe IVYs, There football programs CAN'T compete in the post season but threir basketball programs can play in the the big dance???

It is hypocritial in my opinion or maybe I just don't undestand. This was not meant to create a dust up(meaning I am not a co conspirator with you know who). I respectthe philosophy but it should be equal footing for every athletic program.

[MplsBison]

You really are stupid. How do you think federal financial aid is parceled up--by need...hello.

And yet every other autobid conference gives athletic merit aid on a need blind basis.


My case is building.


Would it really take a lawsuit to crack open those stubborn b*stards?

[Franks Tanks]

And yet every other autobid conference gives athletic merit aid on a need blind basis.


My case is building.


Would it really take a lawsuit to crack open those stubborn b*stards?

Why the h*ll would a lawsuit be warranted?

Perhaps every other auto-bid confenece is inferior as they need to use scholly's the entice players to attend. ;)

[DSUrocks07]

So is there a minimum scholly requirement to participate in the FCS playoffs? To be an "autobid" conference? Or is it considered discretionary?

[DFW HOYA]

Not to cloud the issue, but isin't this a litle hypocritical from an institutional standpoint? If You play hoops at Georgetown you can recieve a full athletic scholarship. If you play football you can't due to philosphy of the PL?... I respectthe philosophy but it should be equal footing for every athletic program.

I'm sure your school doesn't offer scholarships across every sport. Universities typically allocate scholarships based on a number of factors such as participation levels, conference requirements, Title IX, etc. The Big East mandates certain minimums on scholarship support that the PL does not. Then again, Georgetown and Villanova are not exactly on the Big East's short list for football anyway.

In years past, Georgetown offered 81 football scholarships. Of course, tuition was less than $1,000 a year and it was an all male campus. To get back to that level of funding would take revenue sources not available in PL circles.

[MplsBison]

AFAIK, both Nova and Gtown were offered the same deal that UConn got. Upgrade and you're in.


Hard to believe the rich alumns at Gtown couldn't push that through with a deal to play at FedEx.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Let's get something straight here.

1. Patriot League educations are (conservatively) more than $40,000 per student. PL schools are all highly selective schools, with schools that could call themselves (basically) Ivy League schools.

2. Even at 63 scholarships, everywhere football is by far the most costly in terms of scholarship "cost", no matter how you do the accounting. It's super easy to scrounge up funding for 8-12 men's basketball scholarships and an old, dusty gym to make a run at NCAA Tournament (and CBS/ESPN) money. It's way harder to keep up a stadium, pay for 63 scholarships, shoulder pads, practice fields, etc. Football at all schools is pretty much the most costly.

3. The cost of a PL education * 63 scholarships = a huge number of spending that would eclipse the number of scholarship dollars doled out by, say, NDSU.

4. Football everywhere is largely played by at-need kids. In the PL, while "philosophically" they're only giving aid to kids who "need it", practically (especially at PL schools) a good chunk of the PL rosters are "at need" kids - meaning, these kids are basically getting what is the equivalent of scholarships, (changing all of their loans to grants, while still requiring work-study).

5. Philosophically, PL schools have committed to only take athletes that are broadly representative of the rest of the class academically. The Academic Index is in place to ensure that that's the case, as well as having the admissions department have the final say on admitting a student, not athletic departments. NDSU can fill their football team with rockheads who don't graduate, and there's no way on a league basis to make sure they don't do so. The PL has a mechanism to ensure that this doesn't happen.

6. These grants are considered the "equivalent" of scholarships for NCAA purposes. Sometimes in PL circles the question is "how many equivalencies does school X have?" as it's seen as a proxy to scholarships offered.

7. Unfortunately, the NCAA has tied more and more things to scholarship numbers -- most importantly, for bowl eligibility for FBS teams who choose to play FCS teams. All PL teams have struggled to meet these requirements - and as a result, games with UConn and Buffalo are no longer forthcoming (and phone calls to Army and Navy - as ever - still, shamefully, are not returned even though they're "PL schools").

Look for more of this stuff later today on my blog.

[Model Citizen]

Does the NCAA distinguish between 55 equivalencies at Colgate and 55 equivalencies at South Dakota State?

Anyone?



These grants are considered the "equivalent" of scholarships for NCAA purposes. Sometimes in PL circles the question is "how many equivalencies does school X have?" as it's seen as a proxy to scholarships offered.

In other words, the answer is no. Thank you.

[DSUrocks07]

Mplsbison...

reasoning/

I sense that the core of your argument is that not all student-athletes are treated equally with scholarships, so my question to you is this. Why would you award scholarships to those student-athletes whose financial situation does not require it to attend an institution where the cost is substantially higher than other schools at the expense of those student-athletes who really require those scholarships to attend said institution?



/reasoning

[Go...gate]

Allow me to summarize and paraphrase your post:

the PL allows need based aid.



I know that already!


WHY?!?!, is the question I'm repeatedly asking and no one is answering!

Why NOT??

[MplsBison]

There are 3 lines of reasoning out there:

1) a football student athlete deserves no aid based solely on his football ability and should be awarded only the need based federal aid that he can qualify for (Ivy League, Pioneer League, DIII)

2) a football student athlete deserves to be awarded aid based solely on his football ability (DI except IL, PL, PioL, DII).

3) a football student athlete deserves to be awarded aid based solely on his football ability IF he has a financial need (Patriot League is the only conference in the entire world for any sport that goes by this philosophy)




I don't understand how anyone could ever choose 3 over 1 or 2.

[andy7171]

AFAIK, both Nova and Gtown were offered the same deal that UConn got. Upgrade and you're in.


Hard to believe the rich alumns at Gtown couldn't push that through with a deal to play at FedEx.

You can't be serious. Do you have a clue about where the campus and where FedEx are geographically? Not even to mention the fact that Navy and Maryland are within 15-20 miles of FedEx. Who the F would go to a G'town game? No offense to the Hoya fans here, but how many people come out for your games? The Hoyas need to compete in the PL before even thinking of moving up.

[Model Citizen]

2) a football student athlete deserves to be awarded aid based solely on his football ability (DI except IL & PioL).


fixed.

[Model Citizen]

As a practical matter, I bet even NDSU gives out *some* athletic aid based on need. They get 85 counters but only 63 full rides. There's some rationing going on.

[bison137]

[QUOTE=MplsBison;1018537]AFAIK, both Nova and Gtown were offered the same deal that UConn got. Upgrade and you're in.
QUOTE]


There are a couple of important differences between UConn and Villanova/Georgetown:

1. UConn got a large, new stadium built for it using taxpayers' dollars.

2. There are no men's professional teams in the state of Connecticut, so UConn is essentially the "only game in town" for most of the residents of CT. UConn has more press coverage from more newspapers than the large majority of FBS programs in the nation.

[MplsBison]

As a practical matter, I bet even NDSU gives out *some* athletic aid based on need. They get 85 counters but only 63 full rides. There's some rationing going on.

Absolutely not.

Like any other competitive scholarship program, we assign dollars to players that have earned them.


What your parents do is irrelevent.

[MplsBison]

You can't be serious. Do you have a clue about where the campus and where FedEx are geographically? Not even to mention the fact that Navy and Maryland are within 15-20 miles of FedEx. Who the F would go to a G'town game? No offense to the Hoya fans here, but how many people come out for your games? The Hoyas need to compete in the PL before even thinking of moving up.

Oh I forgot about that law that says only people living in DC are allowed to attend Gtown games.
What does the location of the stadium have to do with anything? Esp. in football where the games are once a weekend.


Sounds like someone doesn't like the thought of another big time team taking people away from his Towson in the Wash/Balt area!

xrulesx xrulesx xrulesx xrulesx xrulesx xrulesx

[MplsBison]

I've got a new market slogan for the PL:


The Patriot League: the only conference in the entire world that gives you athletic merit aid based on what your parents are doing.



"Dang it Dad! I would've gotten my entire education paid for me if you hadn't made all that money with that company that you own! You horrible father you!"

[Franks Tanks]

Oh I forgot about that law that says only people living in DC are allowed to attend Gtown games.
What does the location of the stadium have to do with anything? Esp. in football where the games are once a weekend.


Sounds like someone doesn't like the thought of another big time team taking people away from his Towson in the Wash/Balt area!

xrulesx xrulesx xrulesx xrulesx xrulesx xrulesx

xlolx xlolx xlolx

[Franks Tanks]

Absolutely not.

Like any other competitive scholarship program, we assign dollars to players that have earned them.


What your parents do is irrelevent.

Will you drop it. Ask anyone on this board who played for a PL school and they will say the same thing---The aid package made it very affordable to attend- in my case over 95% of the cost was covered and my situation was pretty typical.

[Model Citizen]

So the guy you can get with a half ride gets a 3/4 scholarship because he's extra good...

...and the prospect who's not quite as good, but needs a little extra financial aid is told to take a hike?!?

I doubt it.

[MplsBison]

That's how 99% of DI football is done. You get paid based on your ability, end of story.

PL is the only exception.

[MplsBison]

in my case over 95% of the cost was covered and my situation was pretty typical.

Then the typical situation must be kids of coal miners? Or what?

Obviously your folks didn't make much or you wouldn't have gotten that money. Your football talent was irrelevent, of course. Why would a school take that into consideration when deciding how much aid to give a player?

[andy7171]

Oh I forgot about that law that says only people living in DC are allowed to attend Gtown games.
What does the location of the stadium have to do with anything? Esp. in football where the games are once a weekend.


Sounds like someone doesn't like the thought of another big time team taking people away from his Towson in the Wash/Balt area!
xrulesx xrulesx xrulesx xrulesx xrulesx xrulesx


xlolx xlolx xlolx

xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx
It's times like this I am snapped back to the reality of who we are "speaking" to.

Generally speaking about football in the DC Metro area, people in Maryland root for Maryland. People in Virginia, root for Virginia or VaTech. No one really actually lives IN DC. Sprinkle in JMU, Navy, W&M, Richmond here and there. All play a distant second fiddle to the Redskins, distant. I have no doubt if you asked someone in DC about Towson football, they'd look at you weird. He11 it happens here in Baltimore! Its what happens when you aren't the only show in town.

[CrusaderBob]

MplsBison,

Please answer a question for me.

Why should a school give a bright talented football player more aid beyond need than an equally bright and talented pianist? Why is an All-State football player worth more than an All-State pianist?

[DFW HOYA]

That's how 99% of DI football is done. You get paid based on your ability, end of story. PL is the only exception.

FWIW, the Ivy and Pioneer also have need-based restictions as part of a financial aid offer.

[Franks Tanks]

Then the typical situation must be kids of coal miners? Or what?
Obviously your folks didn't make much or you wouldn't have gotten that money. Your football talent was irrelevent, of course. Why would a school take that into consideration when deciding how much aid to give a player?

My parents certainly didnt/dont make a ton of money, but both earn an average to ok salary. Just another fact you choose to ignore.

[OLPOP]

In fact, Parents who earn > $150,000 Still qualify for significant aid, if they have another kid in college, under PL rules.

[MplsBison]

MplsBison,

Please answer a question for me.

Why should a school give a bright talented football player more aid beyond need than an equally bright and talented pianist? Why is an All-State football player worth more than an All-State pianist?


I don't think that a football player deserves more aid than a pianist.


But I certainly don't see why need plays any part of it for either.

[Go...gate]

Why should one receive financial aid when they do not need it, e.g their parents can afford to pay some or all of the costs?

[CrusaderBob]

I don't think that a football player deserves more aid than a pianist.

Yet somehow football players across the countryget full rides, while pianists and other non-athletically talented students are left trying to put together money to go to school.

And that seems perfectly normal and fair to you? I'd call it discrimination and say it merits a federal investigation.


But I certainly don't see why need plays any part of it for either.

It's based on the concept that having an educated populace is a benefit to society as a whole. And with a finite number of dollars to go around providing those dollars to those who need it most will provide access to that education to the greatest number of students, thereby maximizing the chances that the society as a whole will benefit from the education provided by the College or University.

[MplsBison]

Why should one receive financial aid when they do not need it, e.g their parents can afford to pay some or all of the costs?

Because the idea that athletic merit aid would be given on the basis of anything other than solely athletic merit is preposterous.


If you're only going to award need based aid, then join your intellectual colleagues in the Ivy and Pioneer.



Or join the rest of the world and give athletic aid on full athletic basis only.


This hybrid ********* has got to be banned.

[MplsBison]

Yet somehow football players across the countryget full rides, while pianists and other non-athletically talented students are left trying to put together money to go to school.


It has nothing to do with the imbalance of money going to football players vs. collegiate artists.



It's about the idea that two football players of equal academic record, equal athletic ability and equal starting status on the team could be awarded different amounts of athletic merit aid based on the actions of their parents alone.

[CrusaderBob]

MplsBison,

Clearly you do not understand the reality of aid for virtually every other student at every other college or university in the country who are not scholarship college athletes. Students' aid offers are determined by their financial need - in your words the actions of their parents alone.

At many schools, if an applicant is someone that the school really wants - because of academic or other non-athletic talent - the school will offer a package with more grants and fewer loans or work study.

The Patriot League schools are simply extending that same practice to football players because they believe that football talent does not deserve to be treated differently from other talents a prospective student may bring to the school.

And so ...


I don't think that a football player deserves more aid than a pianist.

Yet schools everywhere give FAR more aid to football players in the form of athletic scholarships. And in all your other arguements you certainly seem to be OK with that. WHY?? Can you answer that for me?? Why is that fair? Why is a football player worth more money than another student?

And if football talent does not deserve to be rewarded more than artistic talent, why do you support atheletic scholarships? Especially for programs that run a deficit of several hundered thousand dollars at schools largely supported by the taxpayers?

[MplsBison]

The fact is that the PL athletic departments give football players special athletic merit grants that regular students do not have access to.



So with that in mind, how can two players of equal athletic ability and starting status on the same PL team possibly be offered different athletic aid packages by that athletic department?

It's unjustifiable.



Either get in the Ivy League camp or join the rest of us.

[DFW HOYA]

So with that in mind, how can two players of equal athletic ability and starting status on the same PL team possibly be offered different athletic aid packages by that athletic department? It's unjustifiable.

You realize, of course, that this is standard in many NCAA sports.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/stories/071308dnsposmufeat.3582c89.html

[CrusaderBob]

So with that in mind, how can two players of equal athletic ability and starting status on the same PL team possibly be offered different athletic aid packages by that athletic department?

It's unjustifiable.


It's justafiable because it is how the PL and every other school in the country treats "normal" students. Just like they give academic grants to students with special academic talents converting need based aid into merit aid.

All Students are eligile for aid based on need.
Football players are just like all students and have their value of their aid package determined by need.
Some students with special abilities get their need for aid met in the form of a grant.
Football players have a special ability and so their need is met with a grant.

Now,

Why don't you answer my question? Why do schools provide free rides for 50 or 60 or 70 talented football players but not an equal number of musicians?

Or try this one. Why should a guy who sits third on the depth chart all four years has a 2.6 GPA get the same grant as the four year all league player with a 3.8 GPA?

[MplsBison]

You realize, of course, that this is standard in many NCAA sports.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/stories/071308dnsposmufeat.3582c89.html


Note the glaring lack of consideration for the girl's financial need when doling out athletic aid.

[MplsBison]

Football players are just like all students and have their value of their aid package determined by need.

I say again: football players in PL schools get special grants that only football players have access to.


The question that you and other can't/refuse to answer is why their financial need would ever be taken into consideration when doling out those special grants.




Why don't you answer my question? Why do schools provide free rides for 50 or 60 or 70 talented football players but not an equal number of musicians?

Because it has nothing to do with athletic merit aid.


Or try this one. Why should a guy who sits third on the depth chart all four years has a 2.6 GPA get the same grant as the four year all league player with a 3.8 GPA?

The guy who is a 4 year all league player should get more athletic merit aid than the guy who sits 3rd on the depth chart because he is better at football.

He deserves more football money.



Financial need has zero consideration.

[CrusaderBob]

I say again: football players in PL schools get special grants that only football players have access to.


The question that you and other can't/refuse to answer is why their financial need would ever be taken into consideration when doling out those special grants.

It's been answered ... several times.
Because that is how the schools dole out their all their merit aid to all students.



Because it has nothing to do with athletic merit aid.

The guy who is a 4 year all league player should get more athletic merit aid than the guy who sits 3rd on the depth chart because he is better at football.

He deserves more football money.

Financial need has zero consideration.


A football scholarship is athletic merit aid.

So the 4 year all league player and the career 3rd stringer get the exact same merit aid in the form of an athletic scholarship. That to me is far more unjustifiable than the PL's way of handling things.

I'm done.

[bison137]

It's been answered ... several times.
Because that is how the schools dole out their all their merit aid to all students.




A football scholarship is athletic merit aid.

So the 4 year all league player and the career 3rd stringer get the exact same merit aid in the form of an athletic scholarship. That to me is far more unjustifiable than the PL's way of handling things.

I'm done.


CrusaderBob, you make way too much sense to ever get through to MplsBison, who has an IQ lower than my dog ..... and my dog isn't real bright as dogs go.

[MplsBison]

Because that is how the schools dole out their all their merit aid to all students.

False. No schools other than PL schools do that.

You're talking about need based aid that every student has access to from the federal government.







So the 4 year all league player and the career 3rd stringer get the exact same merit aid in the form of an athletic scholarship.


Even at the FBS level that would be false.

Both FCS and FBS teams can only give athletic aid to 85 players.


But obviously there are more than 85 players on the team. You have to give aid based on who is playing.

[MplsBison]

If you don't want to keep responding, that's fine.



I've exposed a logical flaw in the unique way that the PL school dole out athletic aid.

[DSUrocks07]

If you don't want to keep responding, that's fine.



I've exposed a logical flaw in the unique way that the PL school dole out athletic aid.

Congratulations Watson, heres a cookie xcoffeex

Better yet a picture to hang on your wall

http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/9005/argue091204ek6.jpg

[MplsBison]

It's too bad that all of those 2-4 year starters on PL teams that don't get any money because of the actions of their parents can't win something too.


I feel bad for them.

[MDFAN]

Idon't think that's correct. In FBS football you can't split the scholarship. So Tim Tebow gets the same as the 3 string punter. If they are both on scholarship.

[andy7171]

Idon't think that's correct. In FBS football you can't split the scholarship. So Tim Tebow gets the same as the 3 string punter. If they are both on scholarship.

Not to be defending MPLS, but I'm guessing the 3rd string punter isn't on scholarship.

[Franks Tanks]

It's too bad that all of those 2-4 year starters on PL teams that don't get any money because of the actions of their parents can't win something too.


I feel bad for them.

These kids voluntarily came to the PL to play football. Some of these kids may have had full or partial offers from other FCS schools. Many are also recruited by the academies, or they could even go to D-II or III if so inclined. The players know the situation and choose to enter into it freely.

Also I know you have difficulty understanding basic points, but virtually all of my teammates had at least half of their way payed. Those who didnt were either very well off and money was literally no object, or they were considered "walk-ons" and would have been offered a scholly or financial aid in any shape or form.

We can therorticaly have 75 kids on the team getting 3/4 or more of their costs payed. Not sure of the actual numbers but it is plausible.

[MplsBison]

Those who didnt were either very well off and money was literally no object


Irrelevent.


It's unjustifiably unfair that the guy's teammates were getting paid for their skills while he was left out in the cold because his parents have cash.

[MplsBison]

Idon't think that's correct. In FBS football you can't split the scholarship.


False.


The maximum number of players that can can receive aid is 85 and the minimum number of scholarships you must offer in FBS is 77.

[Franks Tanks]

Irrelevent.


It's unjustifiably unfair that the guy's teammates were getting paid for their skills while he was left out in the cold because his parents have cash.

Why do you care so much. PL schools have been playing FB before North Dakota was even a state, and have played at the highest level for most of that time. We will never play each other so stop caring, because we dont care what you think. Just Shut UP

[Doc QB]

17 pages later, and MplsBison still does not understand. It is a league wide policy. PL schools have about 13 full rides worth of cash to give a year, and not all schools will ante up the full monte i.e. G'town. Or, this was the case in the early 90's, my time). Schools identify a kid they want, a kid they want to give football dollars to. But, they can ONLY give him football money based on what his financial need is. It is THE LEAGUE POLICY. If he quits, the money is gone, just like full tickets at other full scholly schools, because his money comes from the AD, not the general school and federal funds. They can't give him more, yes it sucks, and most PL fans want us to drop the merit aid crap, spend what is essentially the same amount, go after a wider group of kids and give them the full ticket regardless of mom/dad cash flow. T

The money issue is not flawed, not flawed, its a philosophy that allows league presidents to perceive the most of the athletes are on par with typical students. What maybe flawed is the many of the athletes really are NOT representative of the general population. Sad, but mostly true. Ask the ACTUAL PL athletes on this board, not all of us would have really gotten into school without being able to throw, catch, run the ball.

That rich kid you hypothecially metioned who get less cash but is a better performer being treated unfairly....probably not so much, because if he was better, he may have had a full ride somewhere else and would have taken it, or has the fortune of having parents with means that allow him to ignore whatever money is offered him, need based or not. We lose the talented, more affluent kids to CAA all the time.

Are you even a scholarship level athlete, Bisonman? That is an ass-load of passion for an issue that really never touches the folks of ND. Move on.

[MDFAN]

False.


The maximum number of players that can can receive aid is 85 and the minimum number of scholarships you must offer in FBS is 77.

In head-count sports, each counter or initial counter is factored as one scholarship toward the team’s limit, regardless of the actual value of the individual’s scholarship. Also, each sport has a maximum number of scholarships that may be provided. A full scholarship includes tuition and fees, room and board, and required course-related books. It is possible for a student-athlete in a head-count sport to be awarded only a portion of a full scholarship (e.g., tuition only). However, in a head-count sport, the student-athlete still would count as one scholarship toward the maximum team limit, even if he or she received only a partial grant-in-aid.

[MplsBison]

Why do you care so much.

Why do you think something that is unjustifiable should be allowed to continue?

[MplsBison]

It is THE LEAGUE POLICY.

The debate has always been on IF this should be the league policy.


Not what the current league policy is.


most PL fans want us to drop the merit aid crap, spend what is essentially the same amount, go after a wider group of kids and give them the full ticket regardless of mom/dad cash flow.

That's what I hope to see!



The money issue is not flawed, not flawed, its a philosophy that allows league presidents to perceive the most of the athletes are on par with typical students.

There is no rule against restricting athletic aid to players that qualify academically to the school.


You don't have to participate in the NLI program.



You are allowed to tell a kid "if you can gain admission to our school, we'll give you a full ride based on your football ability AND we don't care how much money your parents make!".

[andy7171]

Why do you think something that is unjustifiable should be allowed to continue?

What's unjustifiable? The PL has rules. If you are an athlete, you either choose to go to a PL school or you choose to go elsewhere. It's up to the athlete. No one is forcing these students or their parents to even read the recruiting letter or visit the school.

[MplsBison]

In head-count sports, each counter or initial counter is factored as one scholarship toward the team’s limit, regardless of the actual value of the individual’s scholarship.

So, for example, you give 81 full rides and 4 half rides. That's 85 scholarship kids that are using 83 equivalencies.

[MplsBison]

What's unjustifiable? The PL has rules.

Just because it's a rule does not justify it.


What if the PL made a rule that said it's ok for PL coaches to pay for hookers to compensate the players?


Would that be ok just because it was a PL rule?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

In head-count sports, each counter or initial counter is factored as one scholarship toward the team’s limit, regardless of the actual value of the individual’s scholarship. Also, each sport has a maximum number of scholarships that may be provided. A full scholarship includes tuition and fees, room and board, and required course-related books. It is possible for a student-athlete in a head-count sport to be awarded only a portion of a full scholarship (e.g., tuition only). However, in a head-count sport, the student-athlete still would count as one scholarship toward the maximum team limit, even if he or she received only a partial grant-in-aid.

If this is true - I'll take your word for it - the lion's share of scholarship dollars still go into tuition. What is the maximum that room/board/books could be at a public school, maybe $3,000 where tuition is around $10,000? When all is told, the school is paying 70% (worst-case scenario) of the kid's bill. When going to a private school, that number would be even higher ($3,000 with a $40,000 tuition bill - well over 90% paid).

In any case, "splitting" scholarships like that sounds like an accounting loophole to me.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

So, for example, you give 81 full rides and 4 half rides. That's 85 scholarship kids that are using 83 equivalencies.

This does not happen at FBS schools, since they can't break up the tuition money. However, it happens at FCS schools, even your precious Bison. They have players on there that have half schollies. The Bison (presumably) have 100 kids on the team, a certain number of walk-ons (say 10-20), and (conservatively) 20-30 kids of whom they have half a scholarship. NDSU then has 63 "equivalencies" but conceivably 80 kids getting aid. Of course this doesn't include other aid like Pell grants, outside scholarships, etc.

FBS schools cannot split up tuition costs this way. Either their tuition is paid (scholarship), or it's not (walk-on).

[danefan]

False.


The maximum number of players that can can receive aid is 85 and the minimum number of scholarships you must offer in FBS is 77.


That is true. But that means you have to give at least 77 full rides and at most 85.

You cannot split scholarships in FBS football.

[andy7171]

Just because it's a rule does not justify it.


What if the PL made a rule that said it's ok for PL coaches to pay for hookers to compensate the players?


Would that be ok just because it was a PL rule?

If that were a rule I'd have worked harder in high school to get into Bucknell! :p

The obvious difference is that what the PL is doing with it's athletes is what is does with all the students, and what the vast majority of schools do. If anything they are favoring their athletes. And prostitution is illegal.

[MplsBison]

If anything they are favoring their athletes.


They are favoring the athletes that have poor parents.

[MplsBison]

That is true. But that means you have to give at least 77 full rides and at most 85.

You cannot split scholarships in FBS football.



False.


The rule says that any partial scholarships counts against the team's maximum allotment of 85.


IE, 81 full rides and 4 half rides = 85 players on scholarship out of a maximum 85.



But if a school only had 83 full rides worth of moeny to give, they could certainly opt to give it to 85 players to maximize their mileage.



It's the exact same rule that governs both FBS and FCS.


IE, an FCS team gives 43 full rides, 40 half rides = 83 players on scholarship out of a maximum 85.



Simply, FBS can give 85 equivalencies and FCS can give 63.

[MDFAN]

They are favoring the athletes that have poor parents.

That's not neccesarily true, my income is 80K my son receives in the neighborhood of 35k in aid to play football. And that figure didn't vary 1k between 3 PL schools.

But the $ offer was significantly higher than other FCS schools offered with their partials.

[andy7171]

That's not neccesarily true, my income is 80K my son receives in the neighborhood of 35k in aid to play football. And that figure didn't vary 1k between 3 PL schools.

But the $ offer was significantly higher than other FCS schools offered with their partials.

Real world examples do not exist in in MPLS world. He's going to dismiss you saying that your situation hardly represents the majority of the PL parents oppression. xlolx xlolx

[Go...gate]

Why do you think something that is unjustifiable should be allowed to continue?

and by what (or whose) standard is it unjustifiable?

[TheBisonator]

I hate to jump into this cesspool of an argument, but I have a question:

Do PL schools only give need-based grants to the talented artists, musicians, etc just like the athletes get, or can the talented artists, musicians, etc. recieve actual full-blown scholarships??

I have no idea who's side to take in the argument, because I don't know the answer to this. Thanks in advance.

[Franks Tanks]

I hate to jump into this cesspool of an argument, but I have a question:

Do PL schools only give need-based grants to the talented artists, musicians, etc just like the athletes get, or can the talented artists, musicians, etc. recieve actual full-blown scholarships??

I have no idea who's side to take in the argument, because I don't know the answer to this. Thanks in advance.


I dont know, frankly I have never encountered anyone getting aid or whatever for music, dance, art etc. However, the PL does give scholarships in other sports. Which sports are scholly vary by school, but basketball has a full allotment of scholly's at all league schools

[TheBisonator]

I dont know, frankly I have never encountered anyone getting aid or whatever for music, dance, art etc. However, the PL does give scholarships in other sports. Which sports are scholly vary by school, but basketball has a full allotment of scholly's at all league schools

So at Lafayette or Lehigh or Colgate there's no such thing as a fine arts scholarship??

See, the way I think of it is that if you want to treat athletes the same as the other academic students, then give them the same scholarship opportunities. If all sets get only need-based aid, fine. if all sets can get full rides, fine. If there are full rides being given out specifically for artists, thespians and musicians, then there should be full rides given out specifically for athletes as well. otherwise, you're giving off the impression that you don't value your student-athletes as much as you do your student-musicians.

Now I feel dirty for feeling like I agreed with MplsBison...xoopsx

[Franks Tanks]

So at Lafayette or Lehigh or Colgate there's no such thing as a fine arts scholarship??

See, the way I think of it is that if you want to treat athletes the same as the other academic students, then give them the same scholarship opportunities. If all sets get only need-based aid, fine. if all sets can get full rides, fine. If there are full rides being given out specifically for artists, thespians and musicians, then there should be full rides given out specifically for athletes as well. otherwise, you're giving off the impression that you don't value your student-athletes as much as you do your student-musicians.

Now I feel dirty for feeling like I agreed with MplsBison...xoopsx

I have no idea. Lafayette has merit scholarships called Trustee and Marquis and they are academic and for the fine arts I believe. They however are not needs based as they provide one blanket amount that doesnt come close to covering full tution. I dont have a better answer unfortunantly.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Now I feel dirty for feeling like I agreed with MplsBison...xoopsx

A common ailment. I'd suggest showering, and walking barefoot in natural grass. Works for me.

[MplsBison]

That's not neccesarily true, my income is 80K my son receives in the neighborhood of 35k in aid to play football. And that figure didn't vary 1k between 3 PL schools.

But the $ offer was significantly higher than other FCS schools offered with their partials.


So should we make stabbing legal so long as only 10% or less of the blade penetrates the skin?


What about parents who make 150k? 250k? etc.



Just because the majority of PL players receive some athletic merit aid does not justify denying athletic merit aid on the basis of financial need.

[OLPOP]

Mpls-- As a PL parent, I wish the league would adopt your policy. However, my son chose to play in the league over the CAA for the quality of the education. His aid package is substantial, even though his mom and I make > $150,000. We chose to honor our son's choice because we could.

[Franks Tanks]

So should we make stabbing legal so long as only 10% or less of the blade penetrates the skin?


What about parents who make 150k? 250k? etc.



Just because the majority of PL players receive some athletic merit aid does not justify denying athletic merit aid on the basis of financial need.


Aid is not denied based on need you idiot. Your need determines what you recieve.

[Ken_Z]

I hate to jump into this cesspool of an argument, but I have a question:

Do PL schools only give need-based grants to the talented artists, musicians, etc just like the athletes get, or can the talented artists, musicians, etc. recieve actual full-blown scholarships??

I have no idea who's side to take in the argument, because I don't know the answer to this. Thanks in advance.

at Bucknell prior to adopting merit aid for basketball (the only sport we currently offer merit aid for) everyone was evaluated on a need basis: athletes, musicians, scholars. when merit aid was adopted for hoops, the school also began to offer merit aid in other areas. i know specifically, that merit scholarships have been offered for music and academics.

the amount of merit aid is limited in large part because to offer more merit aid for athletics, musicians or geniuses would compromise the ability to meet the need based requirements of other capable deserving students. as more money is raised, you can expect an increase in merit aid and conversion of more need based loans to grants.

[Ken_Z]

I hate to jump into this cesspool of an argument, but I have a question:

Do PL schools only give need-based grants to the talented artists, musicians, etc just like the athletes get, or can the talented artists, musicians, etc. recieve actual full-blown scholarships??

I have no idea who's side to take in the argument, because I don't know the answer to this. Thanks in advance.

at Bucknell prior to adopting merit aid for basketball (the only sport we currently offer merit aid for) everyone was evaluated on a need basis: athletes, musicians, scholars. when merit aid was adopted for hoops, the school also began to offer merit aid in other areas. i know specifically, that merit scholarships have been offered for music and academics. except for basketball, i do not believe there are any full rides.

the amount of merit aid is limited in large part because to offer more merit aid for athletics, musicians or geniuses would compromise the ability to meet the need based requirements of other capable deserving students. as more money is raised, you can expect an increase in merit aid and conversion of more need based loans to grants.

[bison137]

So should we make stabbing legal so long as only 10% or less of the blade penetrates the skin?


What about parents who make 150k? 250k? etc.



Just because the majority of PL players receive some athletic merit aid does not justify denying athletic merit aid on the basis of financial need.



Are you really this dumb, or is this just an act designed to embarass the legitimate NDSU graduates?

[TheBisonator]

Are you really this dumb, or is this just an act designed to embarass the legitimate NDSU graduates?

It's probably the latter. I'm sure he's a Sioux troll.

[ngineer]

Lehigh offers student aid based mostly on need. However, there are some limited scholarships based on merit...called Presidential Scholars...that are given to ANY student who brings to the table incredibly outstanding skills whether it be in music, art, research, or athletics. As stated by someone else, if an athlete receives one (non-wrestler,since wrestling is not a PL sport), then a 'justification' to the League is required. Lehigh also has a scholars program wherein if a student attains a superlative gpa, they can receive a fifth year free to either work on a Masters, or take another major.

[MplsBison]

Mpls-- As a PL parent, I wish the league would adopt your policy. However, my son chose to play in the league over the CAA for the quality of the education. His aid package is substantial, even though his mom and I make > $150,000. We chose to honor our son's choice because we could.

Are you implying that your son's actions get to speak for all PL athletes of the present and future for all time?


Don't you think there's a football starter out there on a PL team who isn't getting his fair share of the cut because his parents choose to be successful?

[MplsBison]

Aid is not denied based on need


Absolutely an athletes fair share is denied on the basis of need.

[MplsBison]

Lehigh offers student aid based mostly on need. However, there are some limited scholarships based on merit...called Presidential Scholars...that are given to ANY student who brings to the table incredibly outstanding skills whether it be in music, art, research, or athletics. As stated by someone else, if an athlete receives one (non-wrestler,since wrestling is not a PL sport), then a 'justification' to the League is required. Lehigh also has a scholars program wherein if a student attains a superlative gpa, they can receive a fifth year free to either work on a Masters, or take another major.


That's how it should have always been and always be.


You don't deserve kudos for doing this. You deserve reprimands for not doing it sooner and for not telling the PL "I got a justification for you: 'go ***** yourself'".



The idea that a school would have to justify giving a student a merit grant is inconceivable to me.


He's good at something, therefore we want to give him money to come here. Done. What the hell is so hard about that?

[LBPop]

I have a question and the answer would seem simple, but I am not sure that it is. Does a private university or college have any legal (I am leaving morals and ethics aside for the moment) obligation to be fair? I am sure that they cannot discriminate against protected classes, but do they have to be fair? In my opinion the answer to this question is fundamental to this discussion. Does anyone out there know?

[MplsBison]

I think it would be a good lawsuit to bring forth against the PL on behalf of the underpaid PL players out there.


The case is clear and well defined: PL players are being denied the money that other players of the same status get because of their parents income.


I'm no lawyer, but I can see a non PL jury going with it. Have to make sure you blackball any PL grads.

[DFW HOYA]

The idea that a school would have to justify giving a student a merit grant is inconceivable to me.

M-Bison has a way of getting off topic, namely the image and perception of the PL. But the argument that justification of aid assumes one big caveat: that there is enough aid to go around.

If you're Ohio State or even Notre Dame, yes, there's enough to go around. And if you're at a I-AA school where a scholarship is $4,000 and you're drawing 15,000 a game, the economics are there, too. The fact that the PL schools acknowledge a finite set of resources in the aid they offer isn't unfair but a recognition of what they have to work with.

If Colgate has enough grants for 40 equivalencies, is it more "fair" to give 40 kids a free ride and take on 60 walk-ons that can pay the $44,000 tuition, or to spread the aid among 63 kids, with some getting at least an opportunity to attend a great school like Colgate that they would not otherwise be able to afford outright?

Is it "fair" that 81% of applicants are rejected at Georgetown? Why not accept them all, if they are capable of doing the work? This too, fails to pass muster because schools, like athletic departments, have finite resources (land, buildings, faculty, etc.). Georgetown can't just enroll 15,000 freshmen every year just to be "fair" to them --they must set enrollment and financial priorities that they can live with and still meet the expectations of their stakeholders. Football is a lot like that, too.

And before M-Bison dismisses all this outright, bear in mind that the NCAA recognizes the revenue vs. cost dilemma at schools and has structured its bylaws to accomodate both head-count and equivalency sports opportunities, . If M-Bison has a problem with the latter, his beef is not with the Patriot League, but to the entire NCAA.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I think it would be a good lawsuit to bring forth against the PL on behalf of the underpaid PL players out there.


The case is clear and well defined: PL players are being denied the money that other players of the same status get because of their parents income.


I'm no lawyer, but I can see a non PL jury going with it. Have to make sure you blackball any PL grads.

Please bring that lawsuit on... good luck with that xrolleyesx

[crusader11]

MplsBison was clearly rejected by a Patriot League school and is finding ways to display his anger and disdain for some of the most prestigious schools in the country.

[MplsBison]

If Colgate has enough grants for 40 equivalencies, is it more "fair" to give 40 kids a free ride and take on 60 walk-ons that can pay the $44,000 tuition, or to spread the aid among 63 kids, with some getting at least an opportunity to attend a great school like Colgate that they would not otherwise be able to afford outright?


The debate is not over the fact that PL schools don't have enough money to give full rides to every kid that deserves one.



The debate is over the fairness of the basis that PL schools use to choose which players will get full rides.



Rather than using a football ability basis, a fair basis, they use a need basis, an unfair basis.



For example, NDSU will give a full ride to every starter because they are the best player at that position and therefore they deserve to have the most money that can be given to them. What there parents do is completely irrelevent.


But at Lehigh, OTOH, a starter whose parents make 200k a year will not get the most money that can be given to them while a starter whose parents make 50k a year will.

[DetroitFlyer]

The debate is not over the fact that PL schools don't have enough money to give full rides to every kid that deserves one.



The debate is over the fairness of the basis that PL schools use to choose which players will get full rides.



Rather than using a football ability basis, a fair basis, they use a need basis, an unfair basis.



For example, NDSU will give a full ride to every starter because they are the best player at that position and therefore they deserve to have the most money that can be given to them. What there parents do is completely irrelevent.


But at Lehigh, OTOH, a starter whose parents make 200k a year will not get the most money that can be given to them while a starter whose parents make 50k a year will.


So.... Who cares? In the good ole USA we have things called choices and freedoms. If a kid or family does not wish to foot some or most of the bill to attend a PL school to play football, that kid or family is free to choose to play in North Dakota, ( yeah right ), for a full ride if that is his or their desire. Pretty darn good system if you ask me. Why does it work? Because at EVERY PL school, there is far more demand for the product, (education), then there is supply.... I have absolutely no doubt that on balance a PL education is far more valuable over a lifetime than an education at some state university in North Dakota. Being as most FCS players will go professional in something other than sports, even a grad of some state school in North Dakota can probably understand that the more valuable education is very desirable. Once again, it all comes down to the freedom and choices we enjoy as citizens of this great country. A kid or family can choose a full, athletic scholarship to a State U, or a kid or family can choose to pay to attend a PL school for the benefits if offers that State U cannot.

As I have stated many time before, this diversity is part of what makes FCS so interesting. If the Division would embrace it, promote it, and use it to futher distinguish it from FBS, good things would happen. Instead, many here and many associated with FCS would rather push to have FCS simply become FBS light. How? Exclude the PFL from the playoffs, try to pass stupid rules to "homoginize" the division, ( see OVC rule), etc. Sad really, that so many people are so close minded and lack any creative bone in their bodies! It is very easy for me to understand why the Ivy League does not want to be associated with most of this division! Not easy for most of you which is truly sad.

In my ideal world, all of you FBS wannabees would man up, grant 85 full scholarships, build stadiums that would hold at least 15K fans, bribe them to attend your games, and get the he!! out of FCS. Man, would that be sweet!

[Ken_Z]

Rather than using a football ability basis, a fair basis, they use a need basis, an unfair basis.


xlolx i don't think it is intentional, but MplsBison makes me laugh. maybe i am selling him short and this is one of those Andy Kauffman routines where you are not supposed to be sure whether he is serious or not. MB, do you wrestle girls?

[Franks Tanks]

xlolx i don't think it is intentional, but MplsBison makes me laugh. maybe i am selling him short and this is one of those Andy Kauffman routines where you are not supposed to be sure whether he is serious or not. MB, do you wrestle girls?


I have considered that too-- but really you are giving him too much credit

[crusader11]

So.... Who cares? In the good ole USA we have things called choices and freedoms. If a kid or family does not wish to foot some or most of the bill to attend a PL school to play football, that kid or family is free to choose to play in North Dakota, ( yeah right ), for a full ride if that is his or their desire. Pretty darn good system if you ask me. Why does it work? Because at EVERY PL school, there is far more demand for the product, (education), then there is supply.... I have absolutely no doubt that on balance a PL education is far more valuable over a lifetime than an education at some state university in North Dakota. Being as most FCS players will go professional in something other than sports, even a grad of some state school in North Dakota can probably understand that the more valuable education is very desirable. Once again, it all comes down to the freedom and choices we enjoy as citizens of this great country. A kid or family can choose a full, athletic scholarship to a State U, or a kid or family can choose to pay to attend a PL school for the benefits if offers that State U cannot.

As I have stated many time before, this diversity is part of what makes FCS so interesting. If the Division would embrace it, promote it, and use it to futher distinguish it from FBS, good things would happen. Instead, many here and many associated with FCS would rather push to have FCS simply become FBS light. How? Exclude the PFL from the playoffs, try to pass stupid rules to "homoginize" the division, ( see OVC rule), etc. Sad really, that so many people are so close minded and lack any creative bone in their bodies! It is very easy for me to understand why the Ivy League does not want to be associated with most of this division! Not easy for most of you which is truly sad.

In my ideal world, all of you FBS wannabees would man up, grant 85 full scholarships, build stadiums that would hold at least 15K fans, bribe them to attend your games, and get the he!! out of FCS. Man, would that be sweet!

Right on the money.

[bison137]

MB, do you wrestle girls?


I think it's Carney who does that. :)

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://lettertoamerica.podbus.com/pictures/Andy.jpg
Come on, you chicken Patriot League pansies! I'll sue you! I'll sue you all!

[bison137]

Didn't Lehigh once refuse to give Kaufman a wrestling scholarship because his parents were making too much money? If so, MplsBison will gladly represent him in court - even if he is dead.

[MplsBison]

So.... Who cares?

The PL starters who deserve full rides but get denied their fair share of the cut because their parents make too much money.

[LBPop]

I have for years listened to people who are outraged by "Discrimination" just as our resident genius has been doing on this thread. Well here's some news--discrimination is not illegal. It is only illegal if it is practiced to the detrement of a protected class (religion, age, gender, etc.). I actually practice discrimination professionally. I don't grant loans to people who either cannot or will not pay them back. Also, I don't hire stupid people (intentionally, that is). So I have many times in my career discriminated based on intelligence.

Every University that turns down a single applicant, has discriminated. So if a University decides to give money to someone because they can play football, they can certainly choose to do that (thanks, DFW). And I can say with a fair amount of confidence that while they have discriminated against clumsy, slow people, those people are not a protected class. It's not the act of discrimination that is wrong, it is the basis for it. Certainly anyone can disagree with the University's decision to base aid on any number of criteria, but if none of them harm a protected class, they have no legal liability.

Great story out of California (where else?). A builder was so tired of being hassled and sued by attorney buyers that he decided that he would no longer sell his houses to attorneys. A lawyer sued him over that (of course). The builder prevailed in court because attorneys are not a protected class. Neither are non-athletes or stupid people. Is this a great country, or what?

One final comment about the financial issue. The Patriot League chooses to first filter out the people that they deem do not need financial aid. Then to the extent that the school has the resources, the football program can "buy-out" the loan portion of that aid--thus granting aid only to football players who have first demonstrated "need". My issue with this is the process by which "need" is determined. It is flawed and can be easily manipulated. If Mpls wants to rail against that, he will have an ally here in the DC area.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Didn't Lehigh once refuse to give Kaufman a wrestling scholarship because his parents were making too much money? If so, MplsBison will gladly represent him in court - even if he is dead.

I think you're right. Isn't that how his SNL career started? The PL was too cheap to give him a scholarship to wrestle women - something he was better than anybody else at doing. Sure, that would have made him useless to the Lehigh wrestling team - who only gives scholarships to male wrestlers who wrestle other male wrestlers. But hey, it's about fairness, right? Who cares if it's not even a sport? And how dare they take Mr. Kaufman's parents - and his own significant income as an entertainer - income into account! Unfair!

Mpls' legal docket is becoming quite large. The question is: is he only paid if he wins?

There's also a Title IX joke in there somewhere, but I can't find it.

[Go...gate]

I have for years listened to people who are outraged by "Discrimination" just as our resident genius has been doing on this thread. Well here's some news--discrimination is not illegal. It is only illegal if it is practiced to the detrement of a protected class (religion, age, gender, etc.). I actually practice discrimination professionally. I don't grant loans to people who either cannot or will not pay them back. Also, I don't hire stupid people (intentionally, that is). So I have many times in my career discriminated based on intelligence.

Every University that turns down a single applicant, has discriminated. So if a University decides to give money to someone because they can play football, they can certainly choose to do that (thanks, DFW). And I can say with a fair amount of confidence that while they have discriminated against clumsy, slow people, those people are not a protected class. It's not the act of discrimination that is wrong, it is the basis for it. Certainly anyone can disagree with the University's decision to base aid on any number of criteria, but if none of them harm a protected class, they have no legal liability.

Great story out of California (where else?). A builder was so tired of being hassled and sued by attorney buyers that he decided that he would no longer sell his houses to attorneys. A lawyer sued him over that (of course). The builder prevailed in court because attorneys are not a protected class. Neither are non-athletes or stupid people. Is this a great country, or what?

One final comment about the financial issue. The Patriot League chooses to first filter out the people that they deem do not need financial aid. Then to the extent that the school has the resources, the football program can "buy-out" the loan portion of that aid--thus granting aid only to football players who have first demonstrated "need". My issue with this is the process by which "need" is determined. It is flawed and can be easily manipulated. If Mpls wants to rail against that, he will have an ally here in the DC area.

I wish scores of other lenders followed your common-sense lead. We might not be looking at the Second Great Depression.

[MplsBison]

The Patriot League chooses to first filter out the people that they deem do not need financial aid. Then to the extent that the school has the resources, the football program can "buy-out" the loan portion of that aid--thus granting aid only to football players who have first demonstrated "need".


The only reason that athletic aid exists is to reward a player's ability to play the game.

That ability exists completely independant of that player's household's income.



I see no logical, moral or ethical way in which the two could ever possibly be linked.

The fact that the most NFL players have come from the poorest states proves that beyond any doubt.

[DFW HOYA]

The fact that the most NFL players have come from the poorest states proves that beyond any doubt.

That's a good one. xlolx

Top 5 States For NFL Players:
1. California, 246 (12.2%)
2. Florida, 225 (11.2%)
3. Texas, 208 (10.3%)
4. Georgia, 107 (5.3%)
5. Ohio, 107 (5.3%)

[andy7171]

That's a good one. xlolx

Top 5 States For NFL Players:
1. California, 246 (12.2%)
2. Florida, 225 (11.2%)
3. Texas, 208 (10.3%)
4. Georgia, 107 (5.3%)
5. Ohio, 107 (5.3%)

Those aren't the players he was talking about. xlolx

[MplsBison]

That's a good one. xlolx

Top 5 States For NFL Players:
1. California, 246 (12.2%)
2. Florida, 225 (11.2%)
3. Texas, 208 (10.3%)
4. Georgia, 107 (5.3%)
5. Ohio, 107 (5.3%)

This is what I specifically had in mind when I wrote that:

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/preps/football/2006-08-25-mississippi_x.htm


It doesn't appear you're wrong though.



Nonetheless, my argument is still correct.



BTW, good job on picking at one little point I made that has nothing to do with my main argument, rather than taking on the main argument for which you know you have no counter argument.

[UAalum72]

The only reason that athletic aid exists is to reward a player's ability to play the game.


No, athletic aid is an enticement to get a player to come to your school instead of another. You don't have to give aid to anyone you don't think is worth the $.

You seem to be at odds with your previous arguments that PL schools are elitist and try to keep low-income students out. Are you now saying they also discriminate against the rich, too?

[MplsBison]

To deny a player the same money that another player of equal status is getting based on something that has nothing to do with ability will never be justifiable, no matter how hard you try to avoid it.


You might as well just close the thread.

[LBPop]

The only reason that athletic aid exists is to reward a player's ability to play the game.


Since I do not work at a University financial aid office, I cannot speak with the same authority. But I suspect that the only reason that athletic aid exists is to get the kids to come to the school. Reward??? The school doesn't care one iota about rewarding anybody. The school wants to win football games. They offer money to get the kids that they think will help them win. The End.

Any thought that there is a more noble purpose or motivation here is, in my opinion, a pure fantasy.

[MplsBison]

That's fine.


But to deny one player the same benefits that a different player of equal status gets only because of the household income?


Unethical at best, illegal at worst.

[LBPop]

That's fine.


But to deny one player the same benefits that a different player of equal status gets only because of the household income?


Unethical at best, illegal at worst.

I would agree that it is unethical, if I had not been told. At the very outset of the recruting process, we were informed. So, I didn't like it a lot, but it was their money to spend.

To be illegal we would have to buy into the concept that "rich" people are a protected class. Now that would be a reach.

As I said earlier, my issue is with the process of determining need and the ways that it can be manipulated. The FAFSA model and its level of verification is flawed, weak, and vulnerable IMNSHO (In My Not So Humble Opinion). ;)

[MplsBison]

The rich aren't protected but the player is 18 years or older and is an adult. And they should be legally viewed as a serparate entity from the family household once they leave for college.

[danefan]

The rich aren't protected but the player is 18 years or older and is an adult. And they should be legally viewed as a serparate entity from the family household once they leave for college.

He/she can seek emancipated status and receive a ton more financial aid.

Only problem is there can be ZERO support from the parents, including in the form of health insurance. The parents also cannot claim their child as a dependent which for some equates to a good deal of money.

[ngineer]

The rich aren't protected but the player is 18 years or older and is an adult. And they should be legally viewed as a serparate entity from the family household once they leave for college.

Not reality, nor in the eyes of the law in many states that require parents to support a child financially for college if capable.

[ngineer]

I have a question and the answer would seem simple, but I am not sure that it is. Does a private university or college have any legal (I am leaving morals and ethics aside for the moment) obligation to be fair? I am sure that they cannot discriminate against protected classes, but do they have to be fair? In my opinion the answer to this question is fundamental to this discussion. Does anyone out there know?


Your question is posed to me many times a year by people wanting to sue because of perceived discrimination. Too many times it is a clear example of a little knowledge being dangerous. Many employees who have consulted with me have been unfairly treated; however, most of the time it is not illegal. There are a ton of unfair SOB employers out there, but so long as they don't discriminate based upon class-base (race, religion, ethnicity, disability, gender or sex discrimination) it is not illegal. Caveat--a few states, New Hampshire for one, do have 'just cause' statutes that prevent a firing without employer showing 'just cause'. Howevever they are in the minority. As Rawle wrote, "justice is not fairness".

[bison137]

He/she can seek emancipated status and receive a ton more financial aid.

Only problem is there can be ZERO support from the parents, including in the form of health insurance. The parents also cannot claim their child as a dependent which for some equates to a good deal of money.




FAFSA still considers a student who is under the age of 24 to be a "dependent", even if they are emancipated and receiving no support from their parents and not being claimed as a dependent. Exceptions would include being married, having a child, having been in the military, and a couple of others.

[MplsBison]

All irrelevant to the PL's unethical treatment of athletes.


At the very least, there should be a rule saying that the starting 22 should have to all get the same amount of money. The PL should not be allowed to discriminate on the basis of parent's income.

[bison137]

All irrelevant to the PL's unethical treatment of athletes.


At the very least, there should be a rule saying that the starting 22 should have to all get the same amount of money. The PL should not be allowed to discriminate on the basis of parent's income.


I'm beginning to think that KenZ is right. You can't possibly be as stupid as you sound.

[ngineer]

Will someone put this thread out of its misery....xsmhx

[turbodean]

So do these 22 scholarships change weekly each time the coach adjusts the roster? If not, by that logic it would be just as unjust to the kid who just won the starting role. Oh ya, those scholarships would have to be pro-rated too (in increments of 1/12ths or umm... 1/13ths and so on... if you make the playoffs). xrolleyesx

[MplsBison]

It wouldn't have to be that complicated.


Each PL team would be required to submit the starting roster for the first game of the season and all 22 starters would have to be guaranteed to be getting the same money that year as the highest aided player on the team.

[OLPOP]

Oh, how I wish it were so!

[Lehigh Football Nation]

It wouldn't have to be that complicated.


Each PL team would be required to submit the starting roster for the first game of the season and all 22 starters would have to be guaranteed to be getting the same money that year as the highest aided player on the team.

xrolleyesx I'm sure NDSU does that, right? Switch partial scholarships to full scholarships to walk-on based on game-to-game performance... and injuries?

"I'm sorry, Mrs. Dragasovich, but your son had a tweak in his hamstring so now Billy's got his scholarship... so you'd better get out your checkbook."

I could see it now: a repeat of the sorry Northern Colorado punter scenario playing itself out - except on the entire team.

[MplsBison]

As I just posted above, it would not work that way.


For one, scholarships are guaranteed for a year at a time.


For two, I already said, you submit the starting roster at the start of the year and those 22 guys get guaranteed maximum aid for their status on the team.

Simple as that.

[LBPop]

Will someone put this thread out of its misery....xsmhx




.

[Go...gate]

Since I do not work at a University financial aid office, I cannot speak with the same authority. But I suspect that the only reason that athletic aid exists is to get the kids to come to the school. Reward??? The school doesn't care one iota about rewarding anybody. The school wants to win football games. They offer money to get the kids that they think will help them win. The End.

Any thought that there is a more noble purpose or motivation here is, in my opinion, a pure fantasy.

I'd like to think that the Jesuit mission of Georgetown and Fordham finds its way into the financial aid formula someplace, even for sports. I think you are being a little tough at least on those schools.

[DSUrocks07]

back on topic please....xnonono2x

a week later....

[MplsBison]

We've pretty much hashed it all out. The PL aid philosophy was never correct to begin with.


The PL will continue to deny players the money they deserve.

[turbodean]

So how do you recruit when all your scholarships are already taken by the senior starters?

I can hear it now on visiting weekend... "Ok son if you come here and work really hard, and your parents who make $40K a year combined spend only $150K for your first 3 years, you might get that free ride after all your senior year."

[MplsBison]

I believe most PL schools are in the 50 equivalency range.


Full rides for the 22 starters would be 22 out of 50.


And that's assuming that the maximum aid received by a player is a full ride. Perhaps only 3/4ths are given maximum on a particular team.



All I've demanded is that the starting 22 receive the same amount of aid as the player who receives the maximum amount of aid on the team gets, whatever that is. And I think that's fair.



No way a scout team freshman should get a full ride because he comes from some Baltimore ghetto while the 4 year starting senior whose parents have a house on the bay gets next to nothing.

I won't allow it.

[gophoenix]

I believe most PL schools are in the 50 equivalency range.


Full rides for the 22 starters would be 22 out of 50.


And that's assuming that the maximum aid received by a player is a full ride. Perhaps only 3/4ths are given maximum on a particular team.



All I've demanded is that the starting 22 receive the same amount of aid as the player who receives the maximum amount of aid on the team gets, whatever that is. And I think that's fair.



No way a scout team freshman should get a full ride because he comes from some Baltimore ghetto while the 4 year starting senior whose parents have a house on the bay gets next to nothing.

I won't allow it.

You've really got some issues. xrolleyesx

Here's an idea Mr. I hate rich people (which should be defined as you hate people who make some imaginary amount that you think is too much). When you voluntarily take your income down to the median level and give the rest for the good of society, then I'll start weighing your socialist garbage with some merit.

Unfortunately, people like you only believe you socialist values if said values don't affect you.

Your disdain for anything private sector really just sickens me.

[MplsBison]

I'm advocating eliminating parents income from the equation.


I don't care if that supports rich people or poor people.

[UAalum72]

You've really got some issues. xrolleyesx

Here's an idea Mr. I hate rich people (which should be defined as you hate people who make some imaginary amount that you think is too much). When you voluntarily take your income down to the median level and give the rest for the good of society, then I'll start weighing your socialist garbage with some merit.

Unfortunately, people like you only believe you socialist values if said values don't affect you.

Your disdain for anything private sector really just sickens me.
I'm not sure where you get 'socialism' from this, since he's advocating more money for students from rich families. Isn't that Republican?

However, his 'I won't allow it' advocates monarchy or dictatorship with him at the top. Who made him king?

[gophoenix]

I'm not sure where you get 'socialism' from this, since he's advocating more money for students from rich families. Isn't that Republican?

However, his 'I won't allow it' advocates monarchy or dictatorship with him at the top. Who made him king?

No, if you read through, it was not until the end when he was advocating equality.

[LBPop]

I'd like to think that the Jesuit mission of Georgetown and Fordham finds its way into the financial aid formula someplace, even for sports. I think you are being a little tough at least on those schools.

Let me clarify. The system by which the student's need is computed is 100% driven by the FAFSA engine. If the "black box" says the student does not need money, the student does not receive money. I have neither seen nor heard anything that indicates that the Georgetown Jesuit mission has any impact here.

If the student is a football player AND the student qualifies for financial aid using FAFSA, the football team has the ability to "buy-out" the loan/work-study portion of the aid. That money is distributed at the discretion of the athletic department as they see fit. Again, I have neither seen nor heard anything that indicates that the Georgetown Jesuit mission has any impact here as well.

Finally, let me assure anyone who cares that on balance I loved the Georgetown experience as it impacted my son and our entire family. I will continue to attend games and support the program. However, I have some serious issues with how the school handles money and how some decisions are made in the athletic department.

[MplsBison]

That money is distributed at the discretion of the athletic department as they see fit.

But don't you agree that if a football player is admitted to Georgetown on his own academic merit that the athletic department should be allowed to give him up to as much money as the NCAA allows them to give at their discretion?


What does FAFSA have to do with the athletic department?


GU would not have to participate in the NLI program. Admission could be denied to any potential football recruit if he is deemed not academically qualified. Potential recruit status would not even have to be a criteria in the admissions department. They could look at him as just another potential student.

But then once he gets in, the AD could give him the money they think they need to give him.

[bison137]

It's too bad that this board does not admit members based on the "merit" of their posts. Then this thread wouldn't have run to 25 pages and endless drivel from one poster.

[MplsBison]

It would be half that size or less without pointless posts like yours that do nothing to address my valid point.