just a thought about nascar...

[brad_gsu2011]

Sitting here watching the race and i was wondering

what kind of race is more entertaining?

short track, speedway, super speedway, or road coarse?

some short tracks are fun to watch, Bristol being the main one.
nothing like 43 cars running on a track that .5 miles long.
But some of the others are just boring.

Speedways are nice too. Atlanta being the fastest track in Nascar.
Speed is always nice but it gets old after a while just watching
the same thing over and over again.

Super Speedways. IMO the only reason that these races are
entertaining is because they are usually major races. And there
is always the possibility of the "big one."

Road coarses are slow but their is alot of action in them. alot of
beating and banging and its just something different from the
normal races.

its a hard decision for me.

what do you guys think?

[ALPHAGRIZ1]

They are all cool in their own way which is why an entire season of NASCAR is almost watchable. Different tracks, different circumstances and outcomes all add to the intrigue and mystique.

[Grizzaholic]

I don't really like the road courses. If you want to watch road courses watch open wheel cars. The short tracks are probably my favorite ones to watch.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I like all the tracks although there are too many 1.5 mile cookie cutters and hope to god that if Vegas or Kentucky add a race it comes at the expense of another cookie cutter. I personally love the road courses because it puts the driver in control and takes the aero disasters of todays racing out of the picture. They're probably the two truest tests of ability on the circuit. I don't think it's coincidence that there's never been a "fluke" driver win at one. I've wanted to go to the Glen for a number of years but it's always a week or two after Pocono that it makes it difficult. The short tracks used to be a lot better IMO when there were smaller fields, 32-33 cars. Bristol is nowhere near as good as it was 10-15 years ago and i find it hard to watch sometimes same with Martinsville and i was there in '03.
My top 5 favorite tracks
1. Darlington
2. Richmond
3. Michigan
4. Pocono
5. Watkins Glen

[UNHWildCats]

I like all the tracks although there are too many 1.5 mile cookie cutters and hope to god that if Vegas or Kentucky add a race it comes at the expense of another cookie cutter. I personally love the road courses because it puts the driver in control and takes the aero disasters of todays racing out of the picture. They're probably the two truest tests of ability on the circuit. I don't think it's coincidence that there's never been a "fluke" driver win at one. I've wanted to go to the Glen for a number of years but it's always a week or two after Pocono that it makes it difficult. The short tracks used to be a lot better IMO when there were smaller fields, 32-33 cars. Bristol is nowhere near as good as it was 10-15 years ago and i find it hard to watch sometimes same with Martinsville and i was there in '03.
My top 5 favorite tracks
1. Darlington
2. Richmond
3. Michigan
4. Pocono
5. Watkins Glen

I got a feeling Kentucky will be getting its date from New Hampshire.


Speedway Motorsports Inc. Chairman Bruton Smith knows where he wants to move a Sprint Cup date from if that's what it takes for him to get a Cup race at Kentucky Speedway. Smith said Monday that his decision was made, but he wouldn't reveal it. In the last several years, NASCAR has allowed SMI and track-operating rival International Speedway Corp. to ask for Cup dates to be moved among the tracks in their corporations. SMI currently has two Cup dates at Texas, Charlotte, New Hampshire, Bristol and Atlanta and one at Las Vegas and one at Infineon Raceway.

I suspect he will move the September date (first race of the chase) to Kentucky, which is sad cause NHIS sells out every race and its the only track in the northeast.

I expected this result from the day the Bahre's sold him the track.

[AZGrizFan]

Personally, I'd rather watch D1B's shrimp eat his cold sore. xcoffeex xcoffeex xcoffeex

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Personally, I'd rather watch D1B's shrimp eat his cold sore. xcoffeex xcoffeex xcoffeex

That's the great thing about living here AZ, you've got that option open to you. Personally I've only been to Vegas for a race in person but my favorite to watch is Bristol.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I got a feeling Kentucky will be getting its date from New Hampshire.



I suspect he will move the September date (first race of the chase) to Kentucky, which is sad cause NHIS sells out every race and its the only track in the northeast.

I expected this result from the day the Bahre's sold him the track.

Actually from what i gather Atlanta is the track that is most likely to lose a date. It hasn't sold out in years and is located in a very fickle fan base. Atlanta is already scheduled to take over for Cali next year as the Labor day race and many feel that is just temporary before it goes back to it's rightful spot at Darlington. NHMS easily out draws it so from a business stand point it makes more sense as well. If another cookie cutter gets a date in favor of NHMS it will be another nail in the coffin for this sport that is already on a very slippery slope with it's fan base. It's also quite obvious that those at NASCAR do not want Kentucky to get a race and will do everything in their power to assure Bruton does no hold a race there.

[UNHWildCats]

I think we are within 5 years of a major split in stock car racing.

[Grizzaholic]

I think we are within 5 years of a major split in stock car racing.

What is this split you speak of?

[UNHWildCats]

i can see the emergence of a new series run more like MLB or NFL and stuff where teams are franchises and have more input into the sport.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

i can see the emergence of a new series run more like MLB or NFL and stuff where teams are franchises and have more input into the sport.

I don't think will happen because NASCAR and whoever would try to make their own series knows what a split did to open wheel racing in this country. I think there's several contributing factors that have hurt this sport. The biggest thing is it has abandoned it's roots and i don't mean that in Southeastern United States sense. I believe the single biggest mistake NASCAR did was sell its soul to the TV networks and abandon those who actually are at the races. NASCAR and all forms of motorsports are meant to be seen live and in person and really don't lend themselves to tv viewership. I remember going to Pocono and Dover in the late '80's early 90's, it felt like you were part of an exclusive fraternity. There were still a lot of people but everyone there was there for the same reason. Over the last 10 or so years that has completely changed. As the sport became more mainstream in it attracted the curious people and the "well my friend said you gotta go to one in person before you knock it" folks. Those are people that caused tracks to go nutts building grandstands. The TV networks have really hurt the experience for those attending races in person. There is no reason that a race on the east coast should start at 2:40 like those at Pocono and Dover. It is completely unfair to the 100k people to have a race end after 6 pm battle traffic to get to home so they can go to work on Monday. Races on the east coast, midwest, west coast should never start after 1 pm IMO like they forever up until the last 7-8 years. The ticket prices are always obscene although there are signs that prices will start dropping because of declining attendance. I just checked our 1990 Peak 500 ticket at Dover and the price was $35, 18 years later and it's $93. The demographics of NASCAR fans are still middle class and simply can't afford to go anymore. NASCAR's popularity was and appeal was built on the at track experience and that's what they need to get back to. These 24/7 gossip shows on TV, 2 hour pre race shows, or Mardy Smith asking Tony the same question twice to create drama is not. I yurn for the days when a broadcast would start and 15 minutes later i was actually watching racing and the entire broadcast was about racing. There was no TV cameras being pushed in front of drivers and drivers didn't have to worry about their on camera "persona" or what they would say and how it would be munipulated and talked about on the 100 different tv shows.

[Grizzaholic]

I don't think will happen because NASCAR and whoever would try to make their own series knows what a split did to open wheel racing in this country. I think there's several contributing factors that have hurt this sport. The biggest thing is it has abandoned it's roots and i don't mean that in Southeastern United States sense. I believe the single biggest mistake NASCAR did was sell its soul to the TV networks and abandon those who actually are at the races. NASCAR and all forms of motorsports are meant to be seen live and in person and really don't lend themselves to tv viewership. I remember going to Pocono and Dover in the late '80's early 90's, it felt like you were part of an exclusive fraternity. There were still a lot of people but everyone there was there for the same reason. Over the last 10 or so years that has completely changed. As the sport became more mainstream in it attracted the curious people and the "well my friend said you gotta go to one in person before you knock it" folks. Those are people that caused tracks to go nutts building grandstands. The TV networks have really hurt the experience for those attending races in person. There is no reason that a race on the east coast should start at 2:40 like those at Pocono and Dover. It is completely unfair to the 100k people to have a race end after 6 pm battle traffic to get to home so they can go to work on Monday. Races on the east coast, midwest, west coast should never start after 1 pm IMO like they forever up until the last 7-8 years. The ticket prices are always obscene although there are signs that prices will start dropping because of declining attendance. I just checked our 1990 Peak 500 ticket at Dover and the price was $35, 18 years later and it's $93. The demographics of NASCAR fans are still middle class and simply can't afford to go anymore. NASCAR's popularity was and appeal was built on the at track experience and that's what they need to get back to. These 24/7 gossip shows on TV, 2 hour pre race shows, or Mardy Smith asking Tony the same question twice to create drama is not. I yurn for the days when a broadcast would start and 15 minutes later i was actually watching racing and the entire broadcast was about racing. There was no TV cameras being pushed in front of drivers and drivers didn't have to worry about their on camera "persona" or what they would say and how it would be munipulated and talked about on the 100 different tv shows.

I agree 100%. It has begun to be like the NBA and NFL. The pre-race is forever long. I usually end up missing the first 10-20 laps, depending on the race track, because I just do something else for a while until I hope the race has started.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I have always said they have best marketing team in NASCAR because they caught onto to the changing face of the NASCAR fan. If you look at every intro or commercial promoting Bristol you'll be hard pressed to hear the word racing. The sold the wrecks, the throwing helmets, flaring tempers etc and it worked. A race at Bristol has become a 4 hour soap opera because that's how TV portrays it and the popularity of the track has boomed. The racing at Bristol the last 10 or so years couldn't hold a candle to that 15-20 years ago. Finally 75% of the tracks have too many seats for their own good and they're paying for that. I would not be surprised to see tracks start to downsize their seating to eliminate the bare aluminum. High gas prices aren't helping but there's a lot bigger fundamental problem than that.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Since the edit feature won't work and I can't fix the above post i meant to say "Just to finish my thought and not to pick on Bristol but..."

[93henfan]

Sorry to say it Owl, but the next track to lose a race should be Pocono. I've been there once and that was one time too many. Pocono is probably the worst track for the fan in all of NASCAR. There are few amenities, the stands are very small, the cars are further away than at any other track (save road courses, by necessity), and the racing is just plain boring. Not to mention, the drivers absolutely hate the track. They try to make the point that Pocono is in a strategic location for population, but it's a rather weak argument. Most of NASCAR's revenue comes from the boob tube and the Northeast already has more entertaining, better drawing tracks in Dover, NH, and WG. Pocono could easily scale back to one race.

There will be no split in NASCAR. They will simply adapt to whatever the economic/demographic forces are. If there's one thing NASCAR has proven, it's that it's not afraid to change. Hell, they've got a new car, a relatively new point championship format, etc. NASCAR is not averse to sweeping changes.

RE the empty seats, that's a simple matter of fuel prices and sagging economy under Bush II. Once the dollar corrects itself and the down cycle is over, places like Dover will be drawing their usual 140,000 plus again. Heck, in June, I'd estimate there were still well over 120,000 butts in the seats during a worsening recession.

RE the start times, AMEN to all that has been said. I've been going to every race at Dover since I was 5 (1976). The races used to start at 12:05pm. The prerace would start before the TV broadcast and the race started on time. Now it's 2:15 and you're lucky to get out of the track by 6:30. I pity people that have to get back to another state to go to work Monday morning!

[CharlestonAppFan]

I think there's several contributing factors that have hurt this sport. The biggest thing is it has abandoned it's roots and i don't mean that in Southeastern United States sense. I believe the single biggest mistake NASCAR did was sell its soul to the TV networks and abandon those who actually are at the races..

I'm not following your analysis in seeing how the sport is "hurting". It's the fastest growing sport in the nation, mainly due to it's obscurity because it hid behind the LACK OF TV coverage the past 50 years. I think the BEST thing the sport has done is set up the partnership with the TV networks. The popularity NASCAR has generated in becoming one of the top sports in this country is because of the demand that the TV medium has created. In my mind, it has not sold it's soul to the networks, rather it has shared it's soul with America through TV by expanding it's roots, not abandoning it.


NASCAR and all forms of motorsports are meant to be seen live and in person and really don't lend themselves to tv viewership. I remember going to Pocono and Dover in the late '80's early 90's, it felt like you were part of an exclusive fraternity. There were still a lot of people but everyone there was there for the same reason. Over the last 10 or so years that has completely changed. As the sport became more mainstream in it attracted the curious people and the "well my friend said you gotta go to one in person before you knock it" folks. Those are people that caused tracks to go nutts building grandstands.

Aren't all sports meant to be seen live? Growing up here in the south, I never had an interest or cared about the sport hockey. Hockey was never shown down here on TV; but the old addage I ever heard from my yankee friends was that I had to see it in person, so I did (still sucks in person BTW). Now Carolina has a hockey team as well as Florida and Atlanta; these are either expansion teams or re-located teams correct? When Carolina won the Stanley Cup a few years ago, I have continued to follow hockey. So how is this bad? I may not be a huge hockey fan like my yankee bretheren, but does that make me a bad fan because I'd rather watch it on TV, which caused my sparked interest?


The TV networks have really hurt the experience for those attending races in person. There is no reason that a race on the east coast should start at 2:40 like those at Pocono and Dover. It is completely unfair to the 100k people to have a race end after 6 pm battle traffic to get to home so they can go to work on Monday. Races on the east coast, midwest, west coast should never start after 1 pm IMO like they forever up until the last 7-8 years.

Completely unfair? As opposed to the SuperBowl finishing at 10 or 11 pm ES on a Sunday night? Or the World Series or NBA playoffs beginning at 9 or 10 PM ES? At least NASCAR allows the fan the opportunity to go home at a reasonable hour after the event finishes. If there is a night race, it is on Saturday night rather than Sunday to allow their fans travel time and/or a weekend getaway. That doesn't hurt the fans experience, it allows fans to experience it by catering to them/us.


The ticket prices are always obscene although there are signs that prices will start dropping because of declining attendance. I just checked our 1990 Peak 500 ticket at Dover and the price was $35, 18 years later and it's $93. The demographics of NASCAR fans are still middle class and simply can't afford to go anymore. NASCAR's popularity was and appeal was built on the at track experience and that's what they need to get back to.

I agree that ticket prices are soaring, but I think that most sports' ticketing price increases are comparible to NASCAR's.


These 24/7 gossip shows on TV, 2 hour pre race shows, or Mardy Smith asking Tony the same question twice to create drama is not. I yurn for the days when a broadcast would start and 15 minutes later i was actually watching racing and the entire broadcast was about racing. There was no TV cameras being pushed in front of drivers and drivers didn't have to worry about their on camera "persona" or what they would say and how it would be munipulated and talked about on the 100 different tv shows.

I don't mind the 24/7 shows or the 2 hour shows (but I don't watch them either); if you don't want to see it, then don't watch it is my motto. In today's sports information age, it comes with the territory. What I do like now is the commentary during the race from DW, now Kyle Petty, and others like Dallenbach. Before, the commentary was very bland and boring; listening to Ned Jarrett or Benny Parsons dry humor put me to sleep on most Sunday afternoons. I think Larry Mac and the others do a great job in decifering what is actually going on in and to the car and the track. I don't ever recall a "cut away" car back in the '80's or the commentators telling the fans what a quarter turn on the track bar would do to the front downforce on the car.

Don't take this as a negative rebuttal because it's not meant as it. I grew up about an hour or so from Charlotte, the mecca for NASCAR and I've been a fan all my life...I grew up with it. Some of my friends feel the same way you do about the future of the sport, but I'm just of a differing opinion. I think the growth of the sport is a great thing for all people to enjoy. Yes, I miss the southern way and culture of racing but the changes had to be done for the sport to continue to thrive. As we all can see, it's become a world sport where all the best drivers want to be....names like Montoya, Francitti, and Ambrose are beginning to replace Waltrip, Jarrett, and Wallace. It's great from a competition stand point, but I can see how it's passing by the old guard supporters. IMO, the change has helped the sport rather than hinder it because it has shared the enjoyment of racing with the rest of the world. xpeacex

[Cobblestone]

Sitting here watching the race and i was wondering

what kind of race is more entertaining?

short track, speedway, super speedway, or road coarse?

some short tracks are fun to watch, Bristol being the main one.
nothing like 43 cars running on a track that .5 miles long.
But some of the others are just boring.

Speedways are nice too. Atlanta being the fastest track in Nascar.
Speed is always nice but it gets old after a while just watching
the same thing over and over again.

Super Speedways. IMO the only reason that these races are
entertaining is because they are usually major races. And there
is always the possibility of the "big one."

Road coarses are slow but their is alot of action in them. alot of
beating and banging and its just something different from the
normal races.

its a hard decision for me.

what do you guys think?


Short Track for me.

[ASUMountaineer]

I like the short tracks. I've been to the speedways and the short tracks, I think it's more entertaining. Though not as entertaining, so to speak, with the lack of speed. I don't like the road courses, and personally don't feel NASCAR should run them. I know it's only two races out of 38, but there's enough series running road courses out there and stock cars should turn left. :)

As for a split, we've been hearing it for years. It's an interesting thought, and many would like to see it. The only person that could possibly make it happen is Bruton Smith what with him owning a number of tracks, including old school tracks NASCAR has left. With that said, I don't know that it will happen, it could, but it would be hard to do and only someone with Bruton's money could probably effectively pitch the idea.

[brad_gsu2011]

I like the short tracks. I've been to the speedways and the short tracks, I think it's more entertaining. Though not as entertaining, so to speak, with the lack of speed. I don't like the road courses, and personally don't feel NASCAR should run them. I know it's only two races out of 38, but there's enough series running road courses out there and stock cars should turn left. :)

As for a split, we've been hearing it for years. It's an interesting thought, and many would like to see it. The only person that could possibly make it happen is Bruton Smith what with him owning a number of tracks, including old school tracks NASCAR has left. With that said, I don't know that it will happen, it could, but it would be hard to do and only someone with Bruton's money could probably effectively pitch the idea.


Yea i dont think a split could happen without someone like Smith.
However, if it does happen it will only drag the sport down. It will
just turn it into another Indy league. And we all see how that went.
And i think the people at Nascar are smart enough to realize that.

[ASUMountaineer]

Yea i dont think a split could happen without someone like Smith.
However, if it does happen it will only drag the sport down. It will
just turn it into another Indy league. And we all see how that went.
And i think the people at Nascar are smart enough to realize that.

I think so too, most people just want to see NASCAR back off on the regulating so much.

[UNHWildCats]

Yea i dont think a split could happen without someone like Smith.
However, if it does happen it will only drag the sport down. It will
just turn it into another Indy league. And we all see how that went.
And i think the people at Nascar are smart enough to realize that.
i disagree I think if someone with a lot of resources proposed it several of the large teams would move to the new series.

Gibbs Racing and Childress Racing have voiced support for franchising in the past and thats the key to the future of the sport.

Sponsors dont like paying money and then seeing their car not make the field. With franchising you lock in a certain amount of teams and they race everyweek.

A couple years back when they were talking about how to change the chase after the first year I had emailed what I thought was a good suggestion to one of the NASCAR sports writers mailbags, I didnt see it posted though. Im pretty sure I had posted it here as well.

The idea I had not only made the season more exciting in my opinion, but it also opened up more race dates. Of course there were a few issues that didnt have answers.

The idea basically is that before each season the entirety of the sport is divided into two groups, most likely based on the previous years final standings. Odd placed finishers in one group (1,3,5,7,9...) and even in the other (2,4,6,8....).

Each group possibly made up of anywhere from 22-27 cars race different schedules. One week one group is racing at Dover while the other is in Texas. This allows NASCAR to get more teams into races without overcrowding fields, it also allows more tracks to be brought into the mix. Places that have two races now might still get two then one for each group, while others would get four instead of two, with two races for each group.

The issue here is what to do about the top races on the circuit (Daytona 500, Coca Cola 600, Brickyard 400) I think you could list the 4 most historic races and open them up to the top qualifiers as opposed to just one group (interleague play if you will) while the drivers who didnt qualify would race the same weekend, just a day earlier.

at the end of the regular season the top finishers in each group advance to the chase. Lets says theres 24 cars in each group. Take the top 12 finishers from each and they make the chase, the chase fields remain the same size only with the top 12 from each group. Now you dont have 31 cars each week who have nothing to lose costing chasers valuable points by getting them caught up in careless crashes.

The cars that didnt make the chase revert back to the second group and finish the season with 10 races of their own, where they can work on things or new drivers for the next season.

NASCAR would go from 36 to 72 race dates and could then easily work some new tracks in like Kentucky and others would get their second dates that they want.

NASCAR can also sell more tv rights to races, they could sell each group to a different network and alternate the chase between them each year.

[UNHWildCats]

I think so too, most people just want to see NASCAR back off on the regulating so much.
Its not really that, its that the race teams make all this money for NASCAR and they get very little imput into the decisions of the sport. If they were franchises and elected a commissioner and voted on the rules and so forth they can get more say into it.

[ASUMountaineer]

Its not really that, its that the race teams make all this money for NASCAR and they get very little imput into the decisions of the sport. If they were franchises and elected a commissioner and voted on the rules and so forth they can get more say into it.

Maybe, but no one wants to cross the France family.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Maybe, but no one wants to cross the France family.

The other thing is Bruton is 81 or 82 years old and i don't know who his heir is but i'm not quite sure if they'll be as cut throat as the old man is.

[ASUMountaineer]

The other thing is Bruton is 81 or 82 years old and i don't know who his heir is but i'm not quite sure if they'll be as cut throat as the old man is.

Oh I doubt it, he is serious. I had some clients who worked with him. When he wants something, he gets it.