Curt Schilling - HOF?

[dbackjon]

With Schilling's career probably over, where does he stand among the all-time greats?

[UNHWildCats]

He will get in, but will wait a few ballots before it happens

[dbackjon]

2nd in Cy Young Voting twice
NLCS MVP (93)
World Series MVP (2001)
Lead league in wins, strikeouts (twice)

216 career wins
3116 career strikeouts (14th all-time)

[UNHWildCats]

10-2 2.23 ERA with 120 Ks in 133.1 playoff innings.

Take out game 2 of the 04 ALCS when he was pitching with that torn whatever before they sewed it to a tendon and that ERA number is even better.

[Dane96]

Not making it. This isnt a Boston or NY thing...but the Hall of Fame is big-time.

Put it this way...even if Don Mattingly had won a World Series MVP (if he played in one) he would be on the outside lookng in.

[andy7171]

2nd in Cy Young Voting twice
NLCS MVP (93)
World Series MVP (2001)
Lead league in wins, strikeouts (twice)

216 career wins
3116 career shutouts (14th all-time)

I'm thinking this is wrong. Don't SPs only get @35 starts a year? Innings maybe?


I think getting Boston a WS championship gets him in, eventually. His low win total has to be taken with a grain of salt with all those years with bad Phillies teams.

[JoltinJoe]

I'm thinking this is wrong. Don't SPs only get @35 starts a year? Innings maybe?


I think getting Boston a WS championship gets him in, eventually. His low win total has to be taken with a grain of salt with all those years with bad Phillies teams.

Strikeouts.

I say he's in because of his big post-season moments (many of which I hate him for;) )

[andy7171]

Strikeouts.

I say he's in because of his big post-season moments (many of which I hate him for;) )

Right. And that's going to be how Jeter gets in as well. (many of which I hate him for) xlolx

[whitey]

Schilling is borderline & definitely close based on his career numbers. Like others already pointed out: His post season performances, Boston winning the World Series and the bloody sock might sway the writers to put him in.

[89Hen]

2nd in Cy Young Voting twice
NLCS MVP (93)
World Series MVP (2001)
Lead league in wins, strikeouts (twice)

216 career wins
3116 career strikeouts (14th all-time)
No Cy Youngs for a starting pitcher up for the HOF is tough to overlook. xeyebrowx

[JoltinJoe]

Right. And that's going to be how Jeter gets in as well. (many of which I hate him for) xlolx

You mean this one?

Jeter Hit (http://s94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/JoltinJoe/?action=view&current=Title00-01-1.flv)

Jeter will be a lock because he will be one of the youngest players ever to reach 3,000 hits. If he plays just five more seasons (and he's still only 33), Jeter is going to be close to 3,600 hits.

[dbackjon]

I'm thinking this is wrong. Don't SPs only get @35 starts a year? Innings maybe?


I think getting Boston a WS championship gets him in, eventually. His low win total has to be taken with a grain of salt with all those years with bad Phillies teams.

Should have been strikeouts - good catch.

Also WS ring with Arizona, in 2001.

[dbackjon]

Strikeouts.

I say he's in because of his big post-season moments (many of which I hate him for;) )


Especially big against the Yanks!!

[89Hen]

You mean this one?

Jeter Hit (http://s94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/JoltinJoe/?action=view&current=Title00-01-1.flv)
xoopsx xnonono2x That's just cold blooded Joe. One of the worst blown calls in MLB in my lifetime. xnonono2x

[UNHWildCats]

No Cy Youngs for a starting pitcher up for the HOF is tough to overlook. xeyebrowx
Not really.

Consider this From 1991-2002 all the NL Cy Youngs were won between 5 different players, all 1st ballot HOFs

Greg Maddux 1992-1995
Tom Glavine 1991, 1998
John Smoltz 1996
Randy Johnson 1999-2002
Pedro Martinez 1997

[89Hen]

Not really.

Consider this From 1991-2002 all the NL Cy Youngs were won between 5 different players, all 1st ballot HOFs

Greg Maddux 1992-1995
Tom Glavine 1991, 1998
John Smoltz 1996
Randy Johnson 1999-2002
Pedro Martinez 1997
So there's five in front of him. How many pitchers from the same era do you let in?

[JoltinJoe]

xoopsx xnonono2x That's just cold blooded Joe. One of the worst blown calls in MLB in my lifetime. xnonono2x

The call was wrong. You can't deny that.

[dbackjon]

Not really.

Consider this From 1991-2002 all the NL Cy Youngs were won between 5 different players, all 1st ballot HOFs

Greg Maddux 1992-1995
Tom Glavine 1991, 1998
John Smoltz 1996
Randy Johnson 1999-2002
Pedro Martinez 1997


So there's five in front of him. How many pitchers from the same era do you let in?

All five are HOF. Maddux and Johnson easy First Ballot.

[UNHWildCats]

So there's five in front of him. How many pitchers from the same era do you let in?
As many as that are deserving. Especially in the error their from when the offense exploded, wether by talent (Griffey, Thomas, A Rod) or cheating (Bonds, Sosa, Caminiti, and on and on) These guys all still put up solid numbers and should be rewarded for their great careers.

Its the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of a Few of The Best Players from each generation.

[blueballs]

So there's five in front of him. How many pitchers from the same era do you let in?

In addition to those 5, which are mortal locks, here are some others that will get consideration:

Mariano Rivera, Trevor Hoffman, Mike Mussina, Roger Clemens...

[JoltinJoe]

In addition to those 5, which are mortal locks, here are some others that will get consideration:

Mariano Rivera, Trevor Hoffman, Mike Mussina, Roger Clemens...

Rivera = first-ballot lock. xnodx

[dbackjon]

In addition to those 5, which are mortal locks, here are some others that will get consideration:

Mariano Rivera, Trevor Hoffman, Mike Mussina, Roger Clemens...

A lof of HOF-worthy pitchers reaching the end of their careers right now - any others?

[FCS Preview]

You mean this one?

Jeter Hit (http://s94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/JoltinJoe/?action=view&current=Title00-01-1.flv)

Jeter will be a lock because he will be one of the youngest players ever to reach 3,000 hits. If he plays just five more seasons (and he's still only 33), Jeter is going to be close to 3,600 hits.

If he plays into his 40's he could get 4000.

Greatest Yankee Shortstop Ever. Yes, I put him ahead of Rizzuto.

[Col Hogan]

I voted close, but...

Schilling was a great pitcher...what he did in Arizona and Boston will not be forgotten in either town...guess NYC won't forget him either (althought they'd like to)...

But, IMHO, he'll not make the HOF...but if he does, it will be by the thinnest of margins...(official hedge)

[JoltinJoe]

If he plays into his 40's he could get 4000.

Greatest Yankee Shortstop Ever. Yes, I put him ahead of Rizzuto.

And if he gets to 4,000, why not shoot for 4,257?

Jeter has played 12 1/2 ML seasons (excluding his 1995 cup of coffee) and has 2,430 hits, and a career .316. He will finish this season with close to 2,600 hits.

AT his current pace (12 1/2 seasons, 2,430 hits, 194 hits per year), he would get the all time record if he plays another 9 1/2 years (22 seasons).

Still a lot of work to do, but right now, he's the one most likely to catch Rose.

[AZGrizFan]

In addition to those 5, which are mortal locks, here are some others that will get consideration:

Mariano Rivera, Trevor Hoffman, Mike Mussina, Roger Clemens...


xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx

Only if they let Bonds in. xeyebrowx xeyebrowx

[JoltinJoe]

I voted close, but...

Schilling was a great pitcher...what he did in Arizona and Boston will not be forgotten in either town...guess NYC won't forget him either (althought they'd like to)...

But, IMHO, he'll not make the HOF...but if he does, it will be by the thinnest of margins...(official hedge)

And we'll still have his mouth to remember him by. xnodx

[FCS Preview]

And if he gets to 4,000, why not shoot for 4,257?

Jeter has played 21 1/2 ML seasons and has 2,430 hits, and a career .316. He will finish this season with close to 2,600 hits.

AT his current pace (121/2 seasons, 2,430 hits, 194 hits per year), he would get the all time record if he plays another 9 1/2 years (22 seasons).

Still a lot of work to do, but right now, he's the one most likely to catch Rose.

I give him a 20% chance of doing it. The longer he stays healthy the better the odds, of course. But we all saw what happened with Griffey.

Jeter has an insatiable desire to play...I could see him going to 43, 44 years old. It will be fun to watch.

[89Hen]

As many as that are deserving. Especially in the error their from when the offense exploded, wether by talent (Griffey, Thomas, A Rod) or cheating (Bonds, Sosa, Caminiti, and on and on) These guys all still put up solid numbers and should be rewarded for their great careers.

Its the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of a Few of The Best Players from each generation.
He was never the best pitcher in any year he pitched. Fame? Lots of players are famous. xcoffeex

[dbackjon]

A-Rod is 32, and at 2316 hits. Could he break Bonds and Rose's record?

[AZGrizFan]

A-Rod is 32, and at 2316 hits. Could he break Bonds and Rose's record?

Short of a career ending injury in the next 5 years, ARod is a lock to break Bonds' record....it'd take something real special to get 2000 more hits though. xeyebrowx xeyebrowx I don't think ARod has 11 more years of baseball left in him.

[dbackjon]

Short of a career ending injury in the next 5 years, ARod is a lock to break Bonds' record....it'd take something real special to get 2000 more hits though. xeyebrowx xeyebrowx I don't think ARod has 11 more years of baseball left in him.

Unless he really wants BOTH records, which would be remarkable.

[FCS Preview]

A-Rod is 32, and at 2316 hits. Could he break Bonds and Rose's record?

A-Rod only averages 180 hits a year. He'd need 11-12 more years to break Rose's record. I don't think he's playing that long or getting 180 hits a year for that long.

As for Bonds? He's only 230 HR away. He could break that in the next 6 years if he stays healthy.

[AZGrizFan]

Unless he really wants BOTH records, which would be remarkable.

I just don't see him being ABLE to play that long. He's already beginning the process of breaking down. xcoolx

[TwinTownBisonFan]

Schilling is a no. The hall can be unjust - Bert Blyleven damn sure deserves to be there, and if Schilling gets in... Bert damn sure should

[Franks Tanks]

If Schilling gets in then we need to include Jack Morris as well

[UMass922]

He was never the best pitcher in any year he pitched.

Neither was Phil Niekro or Don Sutton, both HOFers. Heck, Nolan Ryan never won a Cy Young, either. Schilling has finished second in the Cy Young voting three times, though--which is more times than the above-mentioned guys combined, for what it's worth.

And anyway, Cy Young awards--like MVP awards, All-Star appearances, Gold Gloves, etc.--are subjective accomplishments based on the opinions of others, and should be taken with a grain of salt when it comes to HOF consideration. I think the 200+ wins and 3,000+ strikeouts get him close, and the superb postseason performances put him over the top. He and Smoltz are the two greatest postseason pitchers of this era.

Schilling's 3.46 career ERA--not spectacular by HOF standards--might be what causes the most skepticism. But I'll say he eventually gets in, or at least should.

[UMass922]

If Schilling gets in then we need to include Jack Morris as well

Despite pitching about 500 more innings than Schilling, Morris had less than 2,500 Ks to Schilling's 3,100+. He also walked nearly twice as many batters as Schilling and had an ERA nearly half a point higher (3.90 to 3.46--and a career ERA+ of 105 to Schilling's 127). Morris had 38 more wins, but in 91 more starts. Morris was a good postseason pitcher, but Schilling was even better. What exactly is Morris's case relative to Schilling? I'm not seeing it.

[AZGrizFan]

Despite pitching about 500 more innings than Schilling, Morris had less than 2,500 Ks to Schilling's 3,100+. He also walked nearly twice as many batters as Schilling and had an ERA nearly half a point higher (3.90 to 3.46--and a career ERA+ of 105 to Schilling's 127). Morris had 38 more wins, but in 91 more starts. Morris was a good postseason pitcher, but Schilling was even better. What exactly is Morris's case relative to Schilling? I'm not seeing it.


He's not a complete cock? xconfusedx

[UMass922]

He's not a complete cock? xconfusedx

I agree with you completely on that point; don't get me wrong.

[Ivytalk]

In the modern era, his win total is pretty impressive, and he has had playoff success. His big mouth will keep him out for a few years.xpeacex

[bluehenbillk]

I think Schilling get sin, not a first-ballot guy by any means, but he'll get in. Hard to name a more dominant post-season pitcher. Despite his mouth I think a lot of the writers like him, heck he gave them enough material didn't he?

Question for some earlier posts, Pedro Martinez a first-ballot guy? No.

[UNHWildCats]

I think Schilling get sin, not a first-ballot guy by any means, but he'll get in. Hard to name a more dominant post-season pitcher. Despite his mouth I think a lot of the writers like him, heck he gave them enough material didn't he?

Question for some earlier posts, Pedro Martinez a first-ballot guy? No.

not really.

John Smoltz....

See that was easy :p

[bluehenbillk]

Schill is 11-2, 2.23ERA
Smoltz is 15-4, 2.65ERA

close, but I'd still give it to Curt considering Smoltz is tainted with the Braves lack of postseason success.

[JoltinJoe]

In the modern era, his win total is pretty impressive, and he has had playoff success. His big mouth will keep him out for a few years.xpeacex

Just the thought of listening to his induction speech ....

He might get in quicker if he offers a "no induction speech" pledge.

[UMass922]

Question for some earlier posts, Pedro Martinez a first-ballot guy? No.

Pedro is a sure-thing first-ballot HOFer, beyond the shadow of a doubt. We had a thread about his credentials recently, and I still don't understand what the possible argument against him is.

[UMass922]

Schill is 11-2, 2.23ERA
Smoltz is 15-4, 2.65ERA

close, but I'd still give it to Curt considering Smoltz is tainted with the Braves lack of postseason success.

I'd probably take Smoltz, but in any case, he and Schilling are clearly the top two. As for Smoltz being "tainted," the Braves' lack of postseason success is attributable to anyone but him. Look at Glavine, who's only 12-15 for the Braves in the postseason, and Maddux, who's 11-13. Smoltz always stepped up his game in the postseason; those two didn't. That's probably the difference.

[Dane96]

For the record...every single Baseball analyst on ESPN has agreed with my statement: HE WILL NOT GET IN!

[UMass922]

For the record...every single Baseball analyst on ESPN has agreed with my statement: HE WILL NOT GET IN!

Every single one? I saw Buster Olney on Baseball Tonight yesterday say that Schilling will eventually get in.

[Reed Rothchild]

Best post season ERA. 3 WS titles and almost 4 if not for Joe Carter. He's as deserving a hall of famer as much as he is disliked.

[UNHWildCats]

This from a Sporting News blog post.



So, is Schilling a hall of famer? Based purely on the stats that the voters most rely on (as outlined above), I’d say no. But I think being a key component of three World Series champs -- including leading a team that hadn’t won in millenniums to the promise land in dramatic, bloody fashion – will get him in. Either way, he is marginal, at best.


Did I miss something.... I dont recall the Sox going atleast 2,000 years between WS wins. xconfusedx xconfusedx xconfusedx

[UMass922]

Best post season ERA. 3 WS titles and almost 4 if not for Joe Carter. He's as derving a hall of famer as much as he is disliked.

I agree. Schilling's resume is actually pretty close to Smoltz's, minus the 150 saves and the Cy Young award (which, we have to remember, is a subjective measure, and dependent on how good other pitchers are that year and in that league--Schilling had three second-place finishes, and each of those seasons was about as good as Smoltz's Cy Young season). Both have 210+ wins and 3,000+ strikeouts, WHIPS under 1.2, adjusted ERA+'s of 127 (also the career ERA+ of Bob Gibson and Tom Seaver), and outstanding postseason records.

I do think Smoltz is the slightly better pitcher, and between him and Schilling may very well be where the line between Hall-of-Famer and not-a-Hall-of-Famer is drawn (since it has to be drawn somewhere). But I think it's close, and the only huge difference between them is their reputations (which, for what it's worth, are deserved--like a lot of people, I love Smoltz and dislike Schilling, even though he helped my team win the World Series).

[ngineer]

I think he should eventually get in because of his big-time moments and clutch perfomances. However, too many voters get hung up on the statistics,and his numbers are somewhat reduced due to the anemic Phillies teams he played for a number of years.

[BlueHen86]

I think Curt will eventually get in, primarily because of his postseason heroics.
However, Curt can also be a jackass, and that will cost him votes.
It will be close either way.

[Cleets]

He's not a complete cock? xconfusedx

What..!!!
I thought you (of all people) would love Schilling...

He's a right-wing blow-hard Bush loving loud talker xlolx you guys are like twins...

[AZGrizFan]

What..!!!
I thought you (of all people) would love Schilling...

He's a right-wing blow-hard Bush loving loud talker xlolx you guys are like twins...

xcoolx xcoolx xcoolx

I'm not talking about his POLITICAL views, genius. Just because I agree with him politically, doesn't mean he can't still be a cock. xeyebrowx

[Cleets]

xcoolx xcoolx xcoolx

I'm not talking about his POLITICAL views, genius. Just because I agree with him politically, doesn't mean he can't still be a cock. xeyebrowx

All I know is: If I keep harassing you I'll need 3 body guards in Missoula xlolx


xprost2x

[93henfan]

When they establish the Hall of Fame for Attention Whores (HOFAW), Schilling will be a charter member.

[AZGrizFan]

All I know is: If I keep harassing you I'll need 3 body guards in Missoula xlolx


xprost2x

I'm going to smash your face into a car windshield, then take your mother out to a nice seafood dinner and NEVER CALL HER AGAIN!!! xmadx xmadx

[AZGrizFan]

All I know is: If I keep harassing you I'll need 3 body guards in Missoula xlolx


xprost2x

And just because I like you personally, doesn't mean YOU can't be a cock too... xeyebrowx xeyebrowx xeyebrowx xnonono2x xcoffeex xwhistlex xnonox xoopsx :D

[Eyes of Old Main]

He'll get in, but it might take 2-3 ballots.

[ALPHAGRIZ1]

Despite pitching about 500 more innings than Schilling, Morris had less than 2,500 Ks to Schilling's 3,100+. He also walked nearly twice as many batters as Schilling and had an ERA nearly half a point higher (3.90 to 3.46--and a career ERA+ of 105 to Schilling's 127). Morris had 38 more wins, but in 91 more starts. Morris was a good postseason pitcher, but Schilling was even better. What exactly is Morris's case relative to Schilling? I'm not seeing it.

I met Jack Morris in Great Falls in the late 90's. He bought a farm over there.

My sister introduced me to him and told him I was a huge Braves fan, he shook my hand and said, "Well you probably don't like me very much". I thought that was funny and asked him about game 7 of the World Series Twins/Braves. I asked him what he thought about Kelly sending him back out for the 10th inning, he smiled and said "they don't do that anymore for a reason." Very cool guy.