I-AA interests balk at alternative classification

[Hansel]

BALTIMORE -- Division II's effort to change how the Association views football classification encountered strong tailwinds and heavy headwinds during the same September 27 meeting.

The Division II Football Task Force meeting included several Division I-AA representatives who reacted positively to efforts to create postseason opportunities for Divisions I and II programs that offer few or no scholarships. However, Division I-AA's fully funded programs appeared less enthusiastic about a proposal that would decouple Divisions I and II football from the traditional NCAA membership classification system and enable football programs to choose competition levels based on how many grants-in-aid they provide.

http://www2.ncaa.org/page_printer.php?url=http%3A//www2.ncaa.org/media_and_events/association_news/ncaa_news_online/2005/10_10_05/division_ii/4221n18.html&title=NCAA%20-%20I-AA%20interests%20balk%20at%20alternative%20classif ication%20proposal

[OL FU]

It seems that the easiest alternative and the least likely is for the NCAA to realize how ridiculous it is to make schools participate in D-I football in order to be D-I in every other sport.

[TexasTerror]

It seems that the easiest alternative and the least likely is for the NCAA to realize how ridiculous it is to make schools participate in D-I football in order to be D-I in every other sport.

Colorado College is Div III football (and everything else) and has Div I hockey. How's this possible?

[Hansel]

Colorado College is Div III football (and everything else) and has Div I hockey. How's this possible?
I beleive they also have DI women's soccer

[chattanoogamocs]

Colorado College is Div III football (and everything else) and has Div I hockey. How's this possible?

Certain sports...typically smaller one's, apparently have some sort of exemption...I assume this is done mainly because they need enough participating schools to make it worthwhile. (I believe Ala-Huntsville has a DI hockey program too)

Another example is wrestling...which only about 90-100 DI programs...I know that Edinboro, PA is DI in wrestling and from time to time has actually been ranked in the top 25.

[Hansel]

Certain sports...typically smaller one's, apparently have some sort of exemption...I assume this is done mainly because they need enough participating schools to make it worthwhile. (I believe Ala-Huntsville has a DI hockey program too)

Another example is wrestling...which only about 90-100 DI programs...I know that Edinboro, PA is DI in wrestling and from time to time has actually been ranked in the top 25.
Schools are allowed to "play up" in any one sport (men's and women's) other than football and basketball. In addition for sports in which the NCAA does not offer a championship (ex DII Hockey for which there is no championship), teams are allowed to "play up".

[TexasTerror]

Schools are allowed to "play up" in any one sport (men's and women's) other than football and basketball. In addition for sports in which the NCAA does not offer a championship (ex DII Hockey for which there is no championship), teams are allowed to "play up".

I think the NCAA just needs to rework all these exemption related rules in general. I can understand why these teams are allowed to participate and "play up", but I think while they revise I-AA football, they should look into revising it all. Seems a big mess across the board and it seems to me that revising things would grow some of the Olympic sports...

[SoCon48]

"If you're one of the Division II or I-AA schools fighting for a spot in the playoffs, you might think everything is OK," said Wingate University President Jerry McGee, task force chair. "But if you're one of the 90 percent who aren't, you might think there's a problem."

Wingate isn't in either group and 90% is a wrong number.



It's disgusting for I-AA and Division II to be discussed in the same breath.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Adding to the fun. Who in Sam Hill came up with that graph on the right? That could be the most misleading part of the article.

The bar on the left says, "Number of Times in Championship Over Previous Past 5 Years", and "Equivalencies offered" on the right. The number of apprearances is the highest (1.07) when it comes to the 43-63 equivalencies. 69 I-AA schools qualify, and 0 D-II's (by definition) - I mean, duh!

JMU/Montana
Delaware/Colgate
WKU/McNeese
Montana/Furman
Georgia Southern/Montana

This should represent 100% of the championships at this scholarship level, which be definition are all I-AA.

Then, you go down to the next equivalency, and you see .69 championships in the "26-42" scholly range. Note that it includes only 9 I-AA teams (all of the NEC? some of the NEC and some of the Great West/Big South?) and 56 D-II schools. But they're talking about D-II championships, not I-AA. What's the sense of lumping I-AA schools into a ratio in which they are not participating? It's like saying I-AA's with 45-65 schollies have won 0 BCS Bowls.

By trying to lump all this I-AA and II data together, they are coming up with an entirely misleading set of statistics that try to equivocate two completely different classifications and philosiphies. My big beef is talking about "number of times in national championship" on the left column.

In this graph, there are 45 I-AA schools that are 44 equivalencies or below. 8 choose not to participate in the playoffs (Ivy). 23 (MAAC, Pioneer, NEC) are considered mid-majors. I'm assuming that incorrectly they are lumping the 7 Patriot schools as 0 equivalency schools. That leaves 6 schools, which may include some Big South (VMI and Chuck South leap to mind) and Great West schools (especially the transitionals, like NoCo, UCD, NDSU and SDSU).

I didn't mean to go on and on about this, but that graph is complete bull****.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Here's another part that worries me, from the same article:


With that in mind, members of the task force and the I-AA guests readily agreed that Divisions I and II should further explore what can be done to provide postseason access for low- or no-scholarship programs, either in the form of an additional playoff or through a series of regional "bowl games."

This smells to me like they may be trying to come up with a 24-team playoff structure for I-AA.

[Sly Fox]

That's not my reaction. I thought they might be speaking of a completely new playoff for the non-scholie schools.

[bisonguy]

In this graph, there are 45 I-AA schools that are 44 equivalencies or below. 8 choose not to participate in the playoffs (Ivy). 23 (MAAC, Pioneer, NEC) are considered mid-majors. I'm assuming that incorrectly they are lumping the 7 Patriot schools as 0 equivalency schools. That leaves 6 schools, which may include some Big South (VMI and Chuck South leap to mind) and Great West schools (especially the transitionals, like NoCo, UCD, NDSU and SDSU).



NDSU was at 53 or 54 equivalencies last year and is fully funded at 63 this year.


Here's another part that worries me, from the same article:

Quote:
With that in mind, members of the task force and the I-AA guests readily agreed that Divisions I and II should further explore what can be done to provide postseason access for low- or no-scholarship programs, either in the form of an additional playoff or through a series of regional "bowl games."


This smells to me like they may be trying to come up with a 24-team playoff structure for I-AA.

To me it smells more like an eight team playoff for non-scholarship DII/DI-AA teams(possibly both divisions combined), or four conference champs vs. conference champs post-season bowl games.

This whole "proposal" was introduced by the at-the-time AD of the University of North Dakota, who due to immense pressure to move to DI to follow in the footsteps of North Dakota State, but due to not being able to afford a full move to DI, wanted to be able to move the UND football program to DI-AA on the cheap. This former AD is now the conference commissioner of the DII NCC, the conference in which UND is a member. It is still in his best interest to retain UND in DII, as if they would somehow be able to afford to move to leave DII, the conference would no longer be one of the stronger conferences in DII (although it was possibly the strongest while NDSU, SDSU, and UNC were still members). Other member schools of the NCC have publicly stated that if any other members leave the NCC, that they may look at other conference options (not necessarily moving to DI, but more than likely other DII or NAIA conferences).It's in his best interest if he wants to retain his job to keep UND in DII and make accomodations to do so.

To further reveal the douchebaggery involved in this proposal, the roman numeral divisions would no longer exist, and would be replaced with terms such as the "Liberty Alliance", the "Freedom Alliance", and the "Independence Alliance".

[blukeys]

To me it smells more like an eight team playoff for non-scholarship DII/DI-AA teams(possibly both divisions combined), or four conference champs vs. conference champs post-season bowl games.

This whole "proposal" was introduced by the at-the-time AD of the University of North Dakota, who due to immense pressure to move to DI to follow in the footsteps of North Dakota State, but due to not being able to afford a full move to DI, wanted to be able to move the UND football program to DI-AA on the cheap. This former AD is now the conference commissioner of the DII NCC, the conference in which UND is a member. It is still in his best interest to retain UND in DII, as if they would somehow be able to afford to move to leave DII, the conference would no longer be one of the stronger conferences in DII (although it was possibly the strongest while NDSU, SDSU, and UNC were still members). Other member schools of the NCC have publicly stated that if any other members leave the NCC, that they may look at other conference options (not necessarily moving to DI, but more than likely other DII or NAIA conferences).It's in his best interest if he wants to retain his job to keep UND in DII and make accomodations to do so.

To further reveal the douchebaggery involved in this proposal, the roman numeral divisions would no longer exist, and would be replaced with terms such as the "Liberty Alliance", the "Freedom Alliance", and the "Independence Alliance".

It is probably both. It is no secret that the MAAC, Pioneer, NEC leagues want some sort of post season opportunity and linking up with UND would be a great marriage of convenience. Let's not forget that phone lines and emails cross time zones and these guys have known each other for years from national associations, seminars etc.

I would be in favor of some sort of playoff for the MAAC, Pioneer, NEC if they could quit calling themselves I-
AA. Whenever I hear of a D-3 Widener taking I-AA Lasalle to the woodshed I cringe.

[colgate13]

When will D-II just die already?

[blukeys]

Like those in I-AA say, D-II can propose whatever they want but it doesn't mean a thing. There's a distinct difference between I and II.

Especially after the last 10 years.

I have seen decent D-II teams at West Chester fall further behind UD at the talent level every year. There was a time when the talent gap was not that huge but right now the difference is very distinct. I know there are some teams such as Valdosta and UND that have very respectable programs. But My first hand observation is that every year all the I-AA teams just keep getting tougher.

What does D-II want? They already have a Playoff and NC. Why not be happy with that? The I-AA Mid majors are the ones with the problem. The NCAA can fix the problems of the Pioneer, NEC, etc by letting them pick a classification other than I-AA.

[bisonguy]

What does D-II want? They already have a Playoff and NC. Why not be happy with that? The I-AA Mid majors are the ones with the problem. The NCAA can fix the problems of the Pioneer, NEC, etc by letting them pick a classification other than I-AA.

There's two different issues behind this-

The first being some of the upper DII's (that actually fund the full 36 grants allowed in DII) that want to be able to play I-AA on the cheap. DII is also worried about losing more schools that may want to move to DI (-AA if they have a football team).

The second is something for the non-scholarship schools. I don't think it would be that bad to have the top two, three, four, whatever, non-scholarship schools from DII and DI-AA and have some sort of bowl games (or classics) or some sort of "mid-major" playoff.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Are the I-AA mid-majors really clamoring for the D-II playoffs? All the chatter I've heard from mid-majors are clamoring for better access to the *I-AA* playoffs.

Here's where I'd love to hear from Monmouth, Drake, etc. fans. What's your favorite scenario?

* Including Pioneer/NEC/MAAC to D-II playoffs
* Mid-Major Bowl between NEC/MAAC and Pinoeer champs
* Expanding I-AA playoffs

My assumption would be that this an entirely D-II driven process, since the mid-major folks haven't ever mentioned D-II in AGS to my recollection.

[ucdtim17]

It's disgusting for I-AA and Division II to be discussed in the same breath.


When will D-II just die already?

Oh get over yourselves. It has been discussed here ad nauseum but the top of D-II is cleary AT LEAST on par with middle of the pack I-AA. The difference between D-II and D-IAA is much smaller than the difference between I-AA and I-A.

[Bub]

Are the I-AA mid-majors really clamoring for the D-II playoffs? All the chatter I've heard from mid-majors are clamoring for better access to the *I-AA* playoffs.

Here's where I'd love to hear from Monmouth, Drake, etc. fans. What's your favorite scenario?

* Including Pioneer/NEC/MAAC to D-II playoffs
* Mid-Major Bowl between NEC/MAAC and Pinoeer champs
* Expanding I-AA playoffs

My assumption would be that this an entirely D-II driven process, since the mid-major folks haven't ever mentioned D-II in AGS to my recollection.

I'm just one little voice, but I don't think the majority of I-AA non schollies want to join up with D-II. Using Drake as an example, many of its recruited players gave up D-II, NAIA or some partial I-AA scholarships to attend Drake without football $, because of its academic reputation, but also because it plays I-AA football. If Drake and all the other non-schollie I-AA teams are to be reclassified in with the D-II or NAIA teams then many of these players, I think, would go to the team that can provide them a scholarship rather than a team in the same classification that can not provide them a scholarship.

My vote would be for a MM bowl/championship among the NEC/MAAC & Pioneer. However I don't see this happening.

[colgate13]

Oh get over yourselves. It has been discussed here ad nauseum but the top of D-II is cleary AT LEAST on par with middle of the pack I-AA. The difference between D-II and D-IAA is much smaller than the difference between I-AA and I-A.

My comment wasn't a jab at competitiveness but rather the classification itself. I'm assuming you're from UC Davis. You just made the jump to I-AA so you're a perfect example. Why does D II even still exist? It is becoming an irrelevant division. The top of D II is going D I.

IMO there should be Division I and Division III: a division that gives out scholarships/scholarship equivalents and one that doesn't. That is what is happening anyway. The (relative) handful of D IIs that are advocating change need to adapt to the environment around them; not try and change the environment to suit them. It's a losing battle.

[ucdtim17]

My comment wasn't a jab at competitiveness but rather the classification itself. I'm assuming you're from UC Davis. You just made the jump to I-AA so you're a perfect example. Why does D II even still exist? It is becoming an irrelevant division. The top of D II is going D I.

IMO there should be Division I and Division III: a division that gives out scholarships/scholarship equivalents and one that doesn't. That is what is happening anyway. The (relative) handful of D IIs that are advocating change need to adapt to the environment around them; not try and change the environment to suit them. It's a losing battle.


OK that makes more sense. Out west, the GNAC is no longer going to be a football league. Humboldt is the last D2 in California and they're going it as an independent now. D2 is even worse shape than I-AA out here, which is pretty bad

[arkstfan]

To say Division II ought to die is like saying I-AA ought to die.

Division II serves a purpose. Schools that want to award ability based aid but cannot afford to fund a high level of grants have a home there. Schools that don't want to want to spend that sort of money have a home there. It is cost-containment athletics and shouldn't be disparaged just because they cannot or choose not to divert resources into the arms race.

The solution to the MAAC, NEC, Pioneer problem and the problem of low scholie / non scholie football in Division II can be solved by letting them play Division III football but Division III doesn't want them. So let's make it Division III-A for fully non-scholie programs and Division III-AA for the others. Or just call it Division IV. Or in the spirit of dividing Division I football into I-Bowl and I-Playoff, we can just call it NCAA Classic :D.

[colgate13]

To say Division II ought to die is like saying I-AA ought to die.

Division II serves a purpose.

Comparing Division II and I-AA is really an apples to oranges comparison. I-AA is a subclasification of Division I. The comparision to make is Division I, Division II and Division III. Division I allows the option of awarding athletic scholarships. You don't have to. See the Ivy, some Patriot League sports, some mid major football programs, etc. Division III does not allow the option of awarding athletic scholarships. Division II... what's their angle again? They kind of award athletic scholarships, but just not as much as Division I? I don't see the benefit of being Division II in this landscape, so what am I missing?

If I'm a Division II school that is actually funding my program, what are the serious obstacles to going Division I? I've had this discussion before and I just don't get it. Like UND for example. They've already got a Division I hockey team, they sponsor 20 sports - what's the hold up? Why stay in Division II when your neighbors have realized that Division I is the place to be? If I-AA football is your worry, create or join another mid-major conference.

If I'm a Division II school that is not actually funding my program, well then why am I in Division II again? Shouldn't I compete against schools with similar resources in Division III?

[Paladin1aa]

I read arkstfan's post on the MAC & the SunBelt. Pretty much on target.

But you are missing the internal grumblings. Toledo, Miami and to a lesser extent Bowling Green & NIU all feel they are taking the shaft with low attendance MAC schools. Toledo,Miami & BG have had discussions about Big East and one other. Additionally, The Kent St Prez announced her retirement ( before they may lose their I-A status). The MAC is a troubled league. Some may be forced out by attendance while the others feel that they are held back from pursuing better opportunities elsewhere. $$$ is becoming a bigger issue with them.

We were approached years ago, not the other way around. Should an Ohio team leave for another league or go back to I-AA or drop FB, YSU will be contacted again . Temple will prove to be a horrible mistake. Buffalo is on the ropes. Ball St has serious finacial problems . E. Mich. is a basket case. In fact , other than the big 4 , most are in serious trouble with expenses,attendance,etc. It may not take an Ohio team to leave as the desire of the MAC is to keep it a close commute league, keep expenses down & get attendance up. All things YSU would offer.

And I think something happens with in 5 years to their membership. :nod:

[Hansel]

Division II... what's their angle again? They kind of award athletic scholarships, but just not as much as Division I? I don't see the benefit of being Division II in this landscape, so what am I missing?

If I'm a Division II school that is not actually funding my program, well then why am I in Division II again? Shouldn't I compete against schools with similar resources in Division III?

Many of these arguments could be used against IAA, they kind of award scholarships, but not to the limit IA allows, if you aren't going to fund your program to the full level that division I allows (85 for IA schools), why not go DIII.

DII allows schools to provide scholarship oppurtunities to athletes without having to compete with the Michigans/Delawares/Princetons of the world against whom they don't have the resources with which to compete.

DII does serve a purpose :cool:

[DetroitFlyer]

Our PFL Commissioner, Patty Vitero, is against the PFL Champion having access to the 1-AA playoffs. Of course the fact that she is also the Gateway Conference Commissioner has nothing to do with that stand.... In addition, certain AD's in the PFL fully agree with this position, ( Dayton's for example ). Remember that the entire concept of the Pioneer Football League was to establish some type of need based aid 1-AAA football.... Suffice it to say that effort has failed miserably. Now, it has been 13 seasons since my beloved Flyers have had an opportunity to participate in any type of NCAA playoffs for football. Just how many college sports will survive if there is ZERO percent chance of getting to the playoffs or some type of meaningful post season game, ( 1-A bowls for example ). Fans, alumni and supporters of Dayton and other "Mid-Majors" are getting fed up and our schools know that our patience is wearing thin. The PFL tried to use the North/South Championship game to substitute for a real post season opportunity. The last I checked, this joke of a championship game is typically one of the poorest attended games of the season because absolutely no one cares about it and the PFL North team always wins anyway.... The NEC and MAAC used to have a post season "bowl" game that was also a 100% joke. The bottom line is that if the post season opportunity is not sanctioned as "official" by the NCAA, or a big time 1-A bowl game, no one cares. The schools lose money playing these silly games and all of us true football fans fully understand just how stupid this feeble attempt at a post season for our leagues is when they occur. So, that brings us to this absolutely moronic attempt to get the NCAA to sanction a Division 1-AA and Division II non to limited scholarship playoff. This is simply another tool for the AD's and Commissioners to make it look like they are working for a "post season opportunity" for our hapless schools. Mark my words, the NCAA will never approve such a stupid idea. It will serve to shift the blame from the schools themselves back to the NCAA, however, and the casual fan will be duped into thinking their school is being treated unfairly by the NCAA. Ultimately, there should be room for another one or two autobid conferences in 1-AA. The PFL, NEC and MAAC should combine to form two conferences and their champions should get an auto bid. This will return these schools to the NCAA playoff picture, build a much bigger and stronger fan base, and keep the pressure on the schools to continue upgrading their programs and maybe ultimately get back to offering some level of aid....

[Stang Fever]

Our PFL Commissioner, Patty Vitero, is against the PFL Champion having access to the 1-AA playoffs. Of course the fact that she is also the Gateway Conference Commissioner has nothing to do with that stand.... In addition, certain AD's in the PFL fully agree with this position, ( Dayton's for example ). Remember that the entire concept of the Pioneer Football League was to establish some type of need based aid 1-AAA football.... Suffice it to say that effort has failed miserably. Now, it has been 13 seasons since my beloved Flyers have had an opportunity to participate in any type of NCAA playoffs for football. Just how many college sports will survive if there is ZERO percent chance of getting to the playoffs or some type of meaningful post season game, ( 1-A bowls for example ). Fans, alumni and supporters of Dayton and other "Mid-Majors" are getting fed up and our schools know that our patience is wearing thin. The PFL tried to use the North/South Championship game to substitute for a real post season opportunity. The last I checked, this joke of a championship game is typically one of the poorest attended games of the season because absolutely no one cares about it and the PFL North team always wins anyway.... The NEC and MAAC used to have a post season "bowl" game that was also a 100% joke. The bottom line is that if the post season opportunity is not sanctioned as "official" by the NCAA, or a big time 1-A bowl game, no one cares. The schools lose money playing these silly games and all of us true football fans fully understand just how stupid this feeble attempt at a post season for our leagues is when they occur. So, that brings us to this absolutely moronic attempt to get the NCAA to sanction a Division 1-AA and Division II non to limited scholarship playoff. This is simply another tool for the AD's and Commissioners to make it look like they are working for a "post season opportunity" for our hapless schools. Mark my words, the NCAA will never approve such a stupid idea. It will serve to shift the blame from the schools themselves back to the NCAA, however, and the casual fan will be duped into thinking their school is being treated unfairly by the NCAA. Ultimately, there should be room for another one or two autobid conferences in 1-AA. The PFL, NEC and MAAC should combine to form two conferences and their champions should get an auto bid. This will return these schools to the NCAA playoff picture, build a much bigger and stronger fan base, and keep the pressure on the schools to continue upgrading their programs and maybe ultimately get back to offering some level of aid....



Sounds intresting to me. that you want the I-AA non schollies who are Div III in my eyes to get a chance at the Playoff system that we as mustangs have workked so hard at getting....The only way that is going to happen is if they expand the playoff system from 16...to 20....dont see that happening...then you would have to shorten the season up....Wont happen...because no team is going to give up there I-A money to let a non schollie team in...Just wont happen...

Im not saying I dont really like the idea but i just dont see it happening...I can only imagine how hard it is to play for a team that doesnt have a chance at winning anything...

[colgate13]

You don't have to shorten the season to get another round of playoffs in. You're just going later and have the championship go up against more I-A bowls.

[colgate13]

Many of these arguments could be used against IAA, they kind of award scholarships, but not to the limit IA allows, if you aren't going to fund your program to the full level that division I allows (85 for IA schools), why not go DIII.

DII allows schools to provide scholarship oppurtunities to athletes without having to compete with the Michigans/Delawares/Princetons of the world against whom they don't have the resources with which to compete.

DII does serve a purpose :cool:

I'm trying to look at an entire athletic department. D II football, baseball, basketball, etc. vs. D I football, baseball, basketball, etc.

My question for you Hansel, is if D II served a purpose, what is NDSU doing in Division I? Along with SDSU, UNC, UC Davis, etc... D II seems to be losing purpose as it is becoming smaller and smaller.

[Hansel]

NDSU moved to DI to compete with "peer institutions" ... it is a fit for us. DII used to fit us to a degree, but scholarship reductions and the influx of smaller schools who wanted the DII label (while not prestigious, it is better than NAIA) but didn't want to fund their fund their programs to a level where they'd be competitive. Hence the clamoring for more schollie reduction by new DII schools. DII currently has just under 300 programs and several NAIA CONFERENCES are contemplating a move up so their #'s should be find, but I do agree that DII is losing/has lost its former identity. :)

[arkstfan]

Don't know if it is still this way but the NAIA membership dues used to be based on enrollment. Colleges with more than a few thousand students could move to the NCAA and save money.

Once a few did that finding regional games got harder prompting some schools to follow their former regional opponents to the NCAA.

Division II football isn't on the greatest footing. It has the lowest ratio of football schools to division members of the three divisions and it is the smallest division. It gets really thin out in the Mountain and Pacific time zones. I'm not sure but what you could see most of the schools out that way in football picking to go Division I or Division III or dropping football because they are doing some long trips.

In the south and midwest Division II is viable. Division II hoops seems to be in good shape though.