UNCC Football Costs 'Sobering'

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://www.championshipsubdivisionnews.com/?title=uncc-football-costs-sobering&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1


The financial reality of starting a football program at UNC Charlotte grew more expensive Thursday than estimated in an exploratory committee’s report in February.

During a presentation to the school’s Board of Trustees that lasted more than an hour, Chancellor Philip Dubois said representatives of HOK, a stadium construction company in Kansas City, told him the cost for refitting the Belk track and field complex for football would be significantly higher than estimated.

It would cost approximately $40 million to refit the complex to seat 12,000 fans for football. The price tag would rise to $52 million for a 20,000-seat stadium.

Aren't these estimates only really outrageous if you go to FBS right away? With the right conference affiliation, some effort at cost-containment, some success and some FBS money games under your belt, this sort of fundraising effort shouldn't be a big deal, right?

[Cobblestone]

I'll just say that money is a big issue for many FCS programs. It's a sad fact that a LOT of FCS programs lose money. If UNCC feels they have a good shot at going FBS and in a conference that is part of the BCS cartel then it might be worth it for them to bite the bullet for a few years. If FBS is not a reality for them then it could be difficult to fund a brand new program at the FCS level. I wish them the best in their endeavors.

[IndianaAppMan]

Nothing against UNCC, but I would like to see them stand in line behind programs like ECU, UCF, Memphis, BYU, Boise State, and even Southern Miss before they could get a shot at a BCS conference. Each of those schools, except UCF, have built decades of tradition probably wishing for membership in an elite conference.

I think UNCC would be a perfect fit in the SoCon if they stayed FCS for a long time, but I don't think they've got the backing for football the way that Georgia State does.

[APPALACHIANstate]

and even Southern Miss

Helping produce Brett Favre should have moved them up anyways.

[IndianaAppMan]

Helping produce Brett Favre should have moved them up anyways.

Well, not because of that alone. Using that logic, Mississippi Valley State should be BCS because of Jerry Rice, Savannah State should be BCS because of Shannon Sharpe, UTC should be BCS because of T.O., Alcorn State should be BCS because of Steve McNair, La. Tech should be BCS because of Terry Bradshaw, etc.

I find it hilarious when these programs that don't even have football programs yet (i.e., Kennesaw State, Ga. State, UNCC) brag that they might join the Big East. They are completely clueless as to how much work and luck is involved in rising to the level of a BCS conference. Memphis, for example, tried for 30 years (60's to the 90's) to get into the SEC, and they're still not BCS.

[Go...gate]

Helping produce Brett Favre should have moved them up anyways.


Beating SEC teams from time to time should not have hurt them, either.

[Millwoch]

Well I am no AD, but football is the financial engine of The Citadel athletic budget. There are ways to pay for stadiums and practice fields. Seat premiums are the hot way to build or upgrade stadiums. If you sell 5000 seat premiums for 1500 each=$7.5 million. I would say that is a pretty good start. We are also receiving county funds from the tourism tax. Box seats and club level have also been added and we charge over $20,000 a year per box x 22 boxes...not to shabby. Plus a club level with 1000 seats at $1500 per seat per year. We have also received multiple single donors and have an organization whose prime purpose is to support and raise money for football. They have built a new practice field, academic enrichment center, lockers, plus the new stadium in the past 3 years(they also pay for bills associated the housing and feeding of atheletes during the summer months). It can be done if an athletic department wants it. Look at what Wofford and Elon have done in the past 10 years. I am sure they have gone deep into some pockets, but it has taken them straight to the top of FCS football.

Our stadium upgrade cost $42 million. We were fortunate because a new National Guard readiness center will be housed in the stadium to support the surrounding area during natural disasters(will not be noticable on game days) and that cut the cost by 18 million to 24 million. 10 million from private donors is already secured with 14 million left to raise. We also receive 350,000 yearly x 10 years from Charleston county. That leaves a little over 10 million left. The expected revenue from the stadium is $1 million yearly, so worst case scenerio is we have it payed for in 10 years.

This can be done if wanted by these schools. We are a much smalller school than UNCC or UNCG. No excuses should be made, if they want football then go get it. There are no major college teams in the Charlotte area to compete with UNCC and they should be able to raise plenty from the local area. I personally hope they keep to basketball, as we are doing just fine without them.

[IndianaAppMan]

This can be done if wanted by these schools. We are a much smalller school than UNCC or UNCG. No excuses should be made, if they want football then go get it. There are no major college teams in the Charlotte area to compete with UNCC and they should be able to raise plenty from the local area. I personally hope they keep to basketball, as we are doing just fine without them.

Sounds like The Citadel stadium plan was well-thought out & executed. It sounds likek the AD there is no dummy. Interesting stuff.

At UNCG & UNCC, there's still not nearly enough interest to do a athletics project of that magnitude. You're correct in pointing out that UNCC is alone as Charlotte's only powerful D1 athletic program. (Let's face it: Davidson's not an exception to that statement because they can't bring a strong crowd to their basketball games, even with Stephan Curry. That's no knock on DC, it's just the way it is). Anyway, potential UNCx football programs would still be on an uphill battle to pry away their own alumni from luxury box seats at UNC, NCSU, etc. and convincing them it's a worthwhile cause.

Even with a far smaller alumni base & enrollment, loyalties to Citadel athletics are much more powerful than they are at the UNCx's, and that's why the stadium plan would succeed at the Citadel and not at the other schools.

[AppState]

I've read it 5 times and I'm not yet sober.

[APPALACHIANstate]

I've read it 5 times and I'm not yet sober.

Then I am guessing you just skimmed through it...

Drink you some coffee.

[Millwoch]

Appman, you may be right. It takes a concerted effort to invest in athletics these days. You may know the answer to this...what is the enrollment of UNCC? I would guess a little smaller than App St.

A lot of people have criticized Les Robinson for how he schedules the football team(ie playing 2 FBS schools yearly). But you can not criticize him for his plan on the stadium. He will be remembered for it. He retires this month and his replacement is to be named friday. Lets hope his replacement has the same fund raising ability.

Running an athletic department is very complicated. Even App St. reported a loss of 377,701 dollars for the year 04-05. UNCG reported a profit of 658,000 without football(both schools reported over 4 million in revenue for student fees. Which student gets the better deal?). I would like to see the data from last year or two for Appy, as their ticket sells are at an all time high, not to mention their trademark is selling like hotcakes.

http://www2.indystar.com/NCAA_financial_reports/

[IndianaAppMan]

Appman, you may be right. It takes a concerted effort to invest in athletics these days. You may know the answer to this...what is the enrollment of UNCC? I would guess a little smaller than App St.

A lot of people have criticized Les Robinson for how he schedules the football team(ie playing 2 FBS schools yearly). But you can not criticize him for his plan on the stadium. He will be remembered for it. He retires this month and his replacement is to be named friday. Lets hope his replacement has the same fund raising ability.

Running an athletic department is very complicated. Even App St. reported a loss of 377,701 dollars for the year 04-05. UNCG reported a profit of 658,000 without football(both schools reported over 4 million in revenue for student fees. Which student gets the better deal?). I would like to see the data from last year or two for Appy, as their ticket sells are at an all time high, not to mention their trademark is selling like hotcakes.

http://www2.indystar.com/NCAA_financial_reports/

Wikipedia says UNCC's 2007-08 enrollment was 22,254, with the 2006-07 undergrad enrollment being 16,584. Not a small grad school, it appears. Again, going by wikipedia, App State had 14,489 total enrollment, with 13,447 being undergrads. App State is growing but is very constrained by space, but UNCC has more room to get bigger.

App State is classified as "Master's University," which basically means it focuses mostly on teaching undergrads, with research being a second priority. There's only one doctoral program, and there's a few dozen Master's programs. Going by the lists from US News & World Report, App State's peer institutions seem to be James Madison, CofC, U of Mary Washington, UNCW, & Winthrop. I left out private schools on USNWR's list since their enrollments are much smaller, thus making for a different kind of institution.

UNCC is different from App State. It will probably be up to 30,000 students within 10 to 15 years. It also puts more emphasis on research. I'd say that UNCC is a lot like ECU, being a "National University" that is emerging, improving, and fighting to receive the funding and attention that has gone towards its state's flagship schools since they were founded.

As far as financial data for App State athletics, I'd like to see that as well, but I'm still trying to figure out where to find it.

[IndianaAppMan]

App State is only the sixth largest school in North Carolina behind NC State, UNC, ECU, UNCC, and UNCG. After, there's only so much room in that little mountain valley. As small as it is, traffic in Boone, even on non-game days, can get as bad as Atlanta.

[mainejeff]

Charlotte should go right to the FBS if they can get into the Big East. A FCS program would be a waste of money for them. Charlotte is a big league town now......I can't see them spending $50 million and supporting a team that plays the likes of Coastal Carolina and Gardner-Webb (no offense).

[gophoenix]

Wikipedia says UNCC's 2007-08 enrollment was 22,254, with the 2006-07 undergrad enrollment being 16,584. Not a small grad school, it appears. Again, going by wikipedia, App State had 14,489 total enrollment, with 13,447 being undergrads. App State is growing but is very constrained by space, but UNCC has more room to get bigger.

App State is classified as "Master's University," which basically means it focuses mostly on teaching undergrads, with research being a second priority. There's only one doctoral program, and there's a few dozen Master's programs. Going by the lists from US News & World Report, App State's peer institutions seem to be James Madison, CofC, U of Mary Washington, UNCW, & Winthrop. I left out private schools on USNWR's list since their enrollments are much smaller, thus making for a different kind of institution.

UNCC is different from App State. It will probably be up to 30,000 students within 10 to 15 years. It also puts more emphasis on research. I'd say that UNCC is a lot like ECU, being a "National University" that is emerging, improving, and fighting to receive the funding and attention that has gone towards its state's flagship schools since they were founded.

As far as financial data for App State athletics, I'd like to see that as well, but I'm still trying to figure out where to find it.

Those don't appear to be App's peer institutions. Those are the public schools ranking near App in this study.

http://www.appstate.edu/www_docs/depart/irp/peers.html

Bowling Green, Chico St, Fresno St, CofC, EIU, GMU, GSU, JMU, Miami OH, SHSU, SFA, Towson, UNI, UW-LaCrosse, UW-Whitewater, West Chester, WIU, Western Washington.

Which is kind of funny since only 3 of the list are I-A schools and some say that the reason to go I-A is to be around peer institutions.

[DLS]

"UNCC FOOTBALL
UNDEFEATED SINCE 1946"

[IndianaAppMan]

"UNCC FOOTBALL
UNDEFEATED SINCE 1946"

My brother, a College of Charleston grad, used to have a shirt that said: "CofC Football: Still Undefeated." ;) xlolx

[DLS]

yea i grew up in the university area of charlotte and bought that shirt way back.

its a travesty there isnt a football team yet.

[bluehenbillk]

Here's some sobering thoughts for colleges:

Only 19/119 1-A athletic programs made money in 2006.

The median loss was over $7.25M.

There's an ever-widening rift between the haves & the havenots.

[jstate83]

Nothing against UNCC, but I would like to see them stand in line behind programs like ECU, UCF, Memphis, BYU, Boise State, and even Southern Miss before they could get a shot at a BCS conference. Each of those schools, except UCF, have built decades of tradition probably wishing for membership in an elite conference.

I think UNCC would be a perfect fit in the SoCon if they stayed FCS for a long time, but I don't think they've got the backing for football the way that Georgia State does.



Helping produce Brett Favre should have moved them up anyways.

During those year's is when USM came up with the slogan ANYPLACE, ANYTIME.

The sportscaster's here used to call them the Road Warrior's because they would play 7 and 8 road game's every year with only 3 or 4 being at home.
They did this year after year, building up a rep among SEC school's as no cupcake.

They gave SEC team's like Auburn and Alabama fit's, beat Florida State, Nebraska, etc.
Now these school's, NOT SEC SCHOOL's, are finally traveling to Hattiesburg to play them.
It took them almost 2 decades for this to happen though.

[IndianaAppMan]

Charlotte should go right to the FBS if they can get into the Big East. A FCS program would be a waste of money for them. Charlotte is a big league town now......I can't see them spending $50 million and supporting a team that plays the likes of Coastal Carolina and Gardner-Webb (no offense).

Charlotte would have to go to the FCS to start out before going FBS. It's required by the NCAA. That's why every start-up program the past few decades (FIU, FAU, USF, UCF, Ga. State in the future, etc.) start in the FCS. I think the minimum number of years required in FCS is four.

By the way, App State, Montana, and James Madison have spent $50 million on their facilities just for FCS because that is what, supposedly, it's going to take to recruit even the best FCS athletes. That kind of spending is also necessary to build luxury boxes, which eventually will pay for themselves and turn athletic departments' financial losses into gains.

I see where you're coming from in arguing that Charlotte wouldn't want to go FCS long-term. Unfortunately, it would cost even more than that to go FBS in the rat-race world for the biggest, shiniest, quality football facilities.


During those years... USM came up with the slogan ANYPLACE, ANYTIME.

they would play 7 and 8 road game's every year[/B] with only 3 or 4 being at home... building up a rep among SEC school's as no cupcake.

Now these school's... are finally traveling to Hattiesburg to play them.
It took them almost 2 decades for this to happen though.

That's my biggest concern about the debate over App State potentially moving to FBS (and the same for Ga. Southern, Montana, etc.)

I admire that Southern Miss's ambitions aren't just to be an occasional bowl team with just the occasional high-profile upset in some overlooked, unstable conference. It doesn't just want to be a giant-killer; I imagine I want to be the giant. S. Miss wants to have as top-notch a program is as the university can feasibly produce.

I would hope that if App State were to go FBS, they'd have those same kinds of ambitions, but the sacrifice for that is huge! Only 3 or 4 home games a year--that stinks for the real fans. It would stink if App would have to travel all over the southeast to SEC/ACC/Big East programs for 20 or 30 years before teams would finally make return trips to Boone. It also must be rough on travel budgets to do that. Shoot, it's taken ten years in the FCS for Marshall to get even its in-state neighbor WVU to come to Huntington.

[IndianaAppMan]

Here's some sobering thoughts for colleges:

Only 19/119 1-A athletic programs made money in 2006.

The median loss was over $7.25M.

There's an ever-widening rift between the haves & the havenots.

xnonono2x Sobering indeed.

[Touchdown Yosef]

Wikipedia says UNCC's 2007-08 enrollment was 22,254, with the 2006-07 undergrad enrollment being 16,584. Not a small grad school, it appears. Again, going by wikipedia, App State had 14,489 total enrollment, with 13,447 being undergrads. App State is growing but is very constrained by space, but UNCC has more room to get bigger.

App State is classified as "Master's University," which basically means it focuses mostly on teaching undergrads, with research being a second priority. There's only one doctoral program, and there's a few dozen Master's programs. Going by the lists from US News & World Report, App State's peer institutions seem to be James Madison, CofC, U of Mary Washington, UNCW, & Winthrop. I left out private schools on USNWR's list since their enrollments are much smaller, thus making for a different kind of institution.

UNCC is different from App State. It will probably be up to 30,000 students within 10 to 15 years. It also puts more emphasis on research. I'd say that UNCC is a lot like ECU, being a "National University" that is emerging, improving, and fighting to receive the funding and attention that has gone towards its state's flagship schools since they were founded.

As far as financial data for App State athletics, I'd like to see that as well, but I'm still trying to figure out where to find it.

The UNC school system is expected to grow by 80k students over the next 15 years based on the growth in North Carolina. The UNC system has to grow by 2 NC States and UNC, NC State, and for the most part ASU are all at or near the size they would like to be. UNCC has openly volunteered to take on as much growth as they possibly can. They own the land and they'll get the funding. Look for UNCC to grow big time over the next decade.

[IndianaAppMan]

The UNC school system is expected to grow by 80k students over the next 15 years based on the growth in North Carolina. The UNC system has to grow by 2 NC States and UNC, NC State, and for the most part ASU are all at or near the size they would like to be. UNCC has openly volunteered to take on as much growth as they possibly can. They own the land and they'll get the funding. Look for UNCC to grow big time over the next decade.

App could grow, but I think it would be by force, more or less. It would mean cutting out mountain and trees, which is very much in conflict with the desires most people associated with Boone & ASU. I have heard that ASU has tried increasing enrollment with a satellite campus in Hickory, but that won't cut into that 80,000 very quickly.

Are you sure NCSU and UNC don't want to grow. It seems like there's room. Doesn't matter to me. I'm just wondering where you heard that.

I could see Charlotte expanding easily. What about ECU? Western? Any other schools?

[rudy1648]

UNCC may have the larger enrollment, but a large number of those students are off-campus and commuters. The actual on-campus students who actually live in dorms is not that large. To get a large student turn-out for football games would require a lot of travel just to get back to the campus. They do have room to grow, but I wonder how many more studetns would live on campus and attend games. Secondly, they have not been in existance so very long, so do not have the large alumni base that so many other schools have. How many alumni would be traveling back to school to see a football game? How many deep pocket alumni would be giving money to build a football facility? All problems UNCC has to deal with.

[Rekdiver]

Gentlemen

UNCC is in Charlotte, population within 50 miles is several million. 20 something largest tv market in the countyr. Home to 5 fortune 500 headquarters. The demographics and the economic allure of the city make it easy for UNCC to go to FBS. The only reason that it doesnt have football is that State and UNC are afraid it will eclipse their programs and they lobby heavily to keep Charlotte from stepping up. for crying out loud, UNC Pembroke has a team now. If Charlotte wants to be perceived as a bigtime school then its time to play football.

[DLS]

UNCC may have the larger enrollment, but a large number of those students are off-campus and commuters. The actual on-campus students who actually live in dorms is not that large. To get a large student turn-out for football games would require a lot of travel just to get back to the campus. They do have room to grow, but I wonder how many more studetns would live on campus and attend games. Secondly, they have not been in existance so very long, so do not have the large alumni base that so many other schools have. How many alumni would be traveling back to school to see a football game? How many deep pocket alumni would be giving money to build a football facility? All problems UNCC has to deal with.

ummmm no.

pretty much everyone that goes to uncc lives in the suburban university area with countless college apartments. (connection, station, edge, uwalk. . . . ) commute to class = 10 to 15min just like everything in north charlotte. no one lives on campus because theres no point.

also the alumni base in charlotte is ridiculous. they just got no money.

[IndianaAppMan]

Gentlemen

UNCC is in Charlotte, population within 50 miles is several million. 20 something largest tv market in the countyr. Home to 5 fortune 500 headquarters. The demographics and the economic allure of the city make it easy for UNCC to go to FBS. The only reason that it doesnt have football is that State and UNC are afraid it will eclipse their programs and they lobby heavily to keep Charlotte from stepping up. for crying out loud, UNC Pembroke has a team now. If Charlotte wants to be perceived as a bigtime school then its time to play football.

That's not the only reason, but there's no question that it's a big one.xnodx

Johns Hopkins. Cal Tech. University of Chicago. MIT. Washington U (St. Louis). Emory. Carnegie-Mellon. Those are seven of the top 22 universities in the country according to US News & World Report, none of which have football. Seven are FBS, and the other eight are Ivy League (i.e. not FBS).

My point is that football, FBS or other, is not a necessity to be a bigtime school. Those non-football schools have gargantuan endowments, meaning the repuation among the people that matter most to universities (DONORS) is doing quite well without the gridiron. I can see both sides of the argument. Whether or not football helps national perception is highly debatable.

You've got some great points about how Charlotte could have a football program, espcecially noting the presence of Fort. 500 company. Louisville & Minnesota both have new stadiums financed heavily by corporations, as opposed to alumni or athletic fees.

[SO ILLmatic]

Johns Hopkins. Cal Tech. University of Chicago. MIT. Washington U (St. Louis). Emory. Carnegie-Mellon. Those are seven of the top 22 universities in the country according to US News & World Report, none of which have football. Seven are FBS, and the other eight are Ivy League (i.e. not FBS).


Actually U of Chicago, Wash U, & Carnegie-Mellon do have football programs. They compete in the UAA in D3. I know that MIT has a team as well, but unsure what D3 conference they are in. Not positive about the other institutions fielding teams...



My point is that football, FBS or other, is not a necessity to be a bigtime school.

It may not be a necessity, but it does not hurt to be a selling point towards 18,19 year old kids that are looking to where they will be spending the next four years of their life and the atmosphere the university will provide them.

[DFW HOYA]

That's not the only reason, but there's no question that it's a big one.xnodx

Johns Hopkins. Cal Tech. University of Chicago. MIT. Washington U (St. Louis). Emory. Carnegie-Mellon. Those are seven of the top 22 universities in the country according to US News & World Report, none of which have football. Seven are FBS, and the other eight are Ivy League (i.e. not FBS).

My point is that football, FBS or other, is not a necessity to be a bigtime school.

Hopkins, Chicago, MIT, Washington U, and Carnegie-Mellon ALL play football. CalTech used to but the school has only 700 or so students. Emory never really had it.


Football is not a necessity to be "big time" but it is a predicate to it. A school like Charlotte does not consider UNCW or UNCG to be its aspirational peers, but schools like NC State and ECU. Whether it's having a college newspaper, a football team, or a business school, colleges tend to move in circles of their own peers with similar offerings.

[MplsBison]

No Appy fans should be allowed to comment in this thread.


The pure terror that fills their heart when they realize that UNC-C FBS football would cut off Charlotte from ASU causes them to say anything and everything to get them to sleep at night.

[Appstate29]

No Appy fans should be allowed to comment in this thread.


The pure terror that fills their heart when they realize that UNC-C FBS football would cut off Charlotte from ASU causes them to say anything and everything to get them to sleep at night.

Like usual, you really have no idea what you are talking about.

[IndianaAppMan]

Hopkins, Chicago, MIT, Washington U, and Carnegie-Mellon ALL play football. CalTech used to but the school has only 700 or so students. Emory never really had it.

I stand corrected; however, I dare say that none of the schools have football, or athletics in general, as a major component of the university, at least not in the way it is at D-1 schools. In fact, Chicago left the athletics Big Ten (they're still in the academic Big Ten) because it decided to de-emphasize athletics.


Football is not a necessity to be "big time" but it is a predicate to it. A school like Charlotte does not consider UNCW or UNCG to be its aspirational peers, but schools like NC State and ECU. Whether it's having a college newspaper, a football team, or a business school, colleges tend to move in circles of their own peers with similar offerings.

I couldn't agree more.

I can't help but wonder how long Charlotte would struggle to find a conference that would satisfy its desire to be among its peers. You can rule out the ACC. Even in the highly unlikely case that BC returned to the Big East after the next TV contract expires, the money-driven ACC would go after a more established program. Charlotte would add nothing to its geographic and market footprint.

Charlotte would have to compete with ECU, Memphis, UCF, Marshall, Georgia State (evidently) and Temple for the Big East, and they might not want to expand anyway.

Charlotte may consider ECU a peer, but I'm not so sure about the others in C-USA. That conference is terrible on the travel budget, too.

That leaves the Sun Belt. I guarantee you that if Charlotte went FBS and entered the Sun Belt, the complaints about no-football would be replaced by complaints about being in an inferior conference (in their eyes).

And for the record, if Charlotte wants to get football, more power to 'em. Appalachian will be just fine, even if some jealous fans hope Charlotte football would cause our downfall.xnodx