Should the SOCON Move Back to FBS

[elcid96]

The SOCON used to be 1A and has a rich tradition of members that now make up the ACC and SEC. Should the Conference go back to being 1A(FBS). I can already proclaim that it would be better than a couple of FBS conferences.

[Saint3333]

I'm not sure the whole SoCon could make the move, but a hybrid of SoCon and CAA members could.

ASU, Delaware, JMU, GSU, Citadel (nice stadium, good attendance and fiscal support) and then add ODU and UNCC when they get teams.

[elcid96]

I'm not sure the whole SoCon could make the move, but a hybrid of SoCon and CAA members could.

ASU, Delaware, JMU, GSU, Citadel (nice stadium, good attendance and fiscal support) and then add ODU and UNCC when they get teams.

Not a bad idea there. Take the top teams from each league and move up.

[Sir William]

Not a bad idea there. Take the top teams from each league and move up.

Well that leaves The Citadel out. :D

[elcid96]

Well that leaves The Citadel out. :D

Does it also leave out all the teams we beat last year? I believe that puts vermin out as well.:D

[furman94]

Not a bad idea there. Take the top teams from each league and move up.

HEY NOW! Top teams and move up? FU cou;dn't move up b/c of 2600 undergrads, but that doesn't mean that they aren't a top team!

[Mouse]

could they all afford 85 scholarships?

[IndianaAppMan]

No.

[AppAlum2003]

I'm not sure the whole SoCon could make the move, but a hybrid of SoCon and CAA members could.

ASU, Delaware, JMU, GSU, Citadel (nice stadium, good attendance and fiscal support) and then add ODU and UNCC when they get teams.

I still just don't think the UNCC experiment is ever going to happen. I know they've had study after study after study... I just don't think it's going to come to fruition. Instead, I'd like to see JMU. Harrisonburg is just close enough to Boone to make for an exciting rivalry.

[brad_gsu2011]

this actually doesnt seem like a bad idea

as stated before
take the best from
the SOCON and CAA
and move them up

i guarantee you that
it would be able to hang
with some up the
conferences already in I-A


its nice to think about
but it wouldnt happen

it would be too much work
and too much change at one time

and you know how much
I-A hates to change anything

[Hoyadestroya85]

then villanova could go to the Big East.. where it belongs

[CID1990]

Some of us actually LIKE the FCS, so no, I would not want to move up.

[seantaylor]

GSU and Appy are the only two from the Socon with a shot at moving up. Add in Delaware and JMU from the CAA.

[brad_gsu2011]

GSU and Appy are the only two from the Socon with a shot at moving up. Add in Delaware and JMU from the CAA.


GSU and APPY are the only ones that would
be successful if they moved up from the socon.

i could see the citadel moving up but i dont
know if they would be able to hang with
anyone too important.

[CID1990]

The fact that The Citadel is even in this discussion just proves that all of you need to take off the tin foil hats and come back to earth.

[ASU]

The fact that The Citadel is even in this discussion just proves that all of you need to take off the tin foil hats and come back to earth.

I disagree.....IF The Citadel got behind their team....the old alums especially and the City of Charleston, and their fans....they could have a good FBS team. Do not know if most of them want to, but they could.

[gophoenix]

I disagree.....IF The Citadel got behind their team....the old alums especially and the City of Charleston, and their fans....they could have a good FBS team. Do not know if most of them want to, but they could.

I personally think that every team in the SoCon and CAA could move up with backing from alumni and fund it right. Be successful? I don't know. But schools would find a way to support it.

With the attendance stipulation. Only 4 of the 23 teams can make it now. But from a sheer money perspective, they could all find a way to do it.

[jmu_duke07]

I disagree.....IF The Citadel got behind their team....the old alums especially and the City of Charleston, and their fans....they could have a good FBS team. Do not know if most of them want to, but they could.

doubtful, many Charlestonians go to Columbia or Clemson on gameday.

[OL FU]

GSU and APPY are the only ones that would
be successful if they moved up from the socon.

i could see the citadel moving up but i dont
know if they would be able to hang with
anyone too important.

Which of course would put The Citadel in the same position as GSU. xnodx

I would say ASU but I will wait until LSU brings them back down to earth:o xsmiley_wix



kinda hard to say that after UM last yearxnodx

[OL FU]

I personally think that every team in the SoCon and CAA could move up with backing from alumni and fund it right. Be successful? I don't know. But schools would find a way to support it.

With the attendance stipulation. Only 4 of the 23 teams can make it now. But from a sheer money perspective, they could all find a way to do it.


You are correct. There is a huge difference in moving to FBS and being successful in FBS. xnodx

[soweagle]

Which of course would put The Citadel in the same position as GSU. xnodx

I would say ASU but I will wait until LSU brings them back down to earth:o xsmiley_wix



kinda hard to say that after UM last yearxnodx

Comparing moving to FBS with beating LSU is not realistic.

[OL FU]

GSU and APPY are the only ones that would
be successful if they moved up from the socon.

i could see the citadel moving up but i dont
know if they would be able to hang with
anyone too important.


Comparing moving to FBS with beating LSU is not realistic.

I was speaking to the statement from brad. The LSU reference was simply a friendly jab at my ASU friendsxrolleyesx

[soweagle]

I was speaking to the statement from brad. The LSU reference was simply a friendly jab at my ASU friendsxrolleyesx

Why do you think GSU would not be able to compete in FBS? I could see Furman, Citadel, and many other teams being able to compete giving the same number of scholarships. Surely you are not basing this off of the past couple of seasons at GSU. You are smart enough to realize that you can not base a program off of a few good or bad seasons.

[Blue Hen Nation]

I'm not sure the whole SoCon could make the move, but a hybrid of SoCon and CAA members could.

ASU, Delaware, JMU, GSU, Citadel (nice stadium, good attendance and fiscal support) and then add ODU and UNCC when they get teams.

Interesting thought - I like it! xthumbsupx

[OL FU]

Why do you think GSU would not be able to compete in FBS? I could see Furman, Citadel, and many other teams being able to compete giving the same number of scholarships. Surely you are not basing this off of the past couple of seasons at GSU. You are smart enough to realize that you can not base a program off of a few good or bad seasons.

Some people take my posts too seriously.xnodx Competing in FBS is a matter of perspective. I think you would compete fine at the lower level of FBS. Most years now you would compete fine against the Middle Tenn and Troys. So would most of the upper tier of the SoCon.

PS, I am not one of those who has a problem with schools moving on to FBS. Schools should do what they think is in their best interest

[Blue Hen Nation]

then villanova could go to the Big East.. where it belongs

Before Villanova goes anywhere, they need to start filling the stands with their own fans.

[soweagle]

Some people take my posts too seriously.xnodx Competing in FBS is a matter of perspective. I think you would compete fine at the lower level of FBS. Most years now you would compete fine against the Middle Tenn and Troys. So would most of the upper tier of the SoCon.

PS, I am not one of those who has a problem with schools moving on to FBS. Schools should do what they think is in their best interest

And, just so you know, I am not one of those who thinks GSU should definetly move. I have mixed emotions on the subject. My biggest fear is that we move and I gradually grow to like Furman.:D

[OL FU]

And, just so you know, I am not one of those who thinks GSU should definetly move. I have mixed emotions on the subject. My biggest fear is that we move and I gradually grow to like Furman.:D

Horrors of horrorsxeekx xlolx

[Go...gate]

then Villanova could go to the Patriot League for football.. where it belongs

Fixed it

[rudy1648]

Here is a thought friend of mine saw for future of NCAA football as a whole. There would be a super division, made up of the top tier of FBS conferences,,those which are in the BCS every year. (SEC, ACC, Big 10, Big 12, Pac 10, Big East) for example. Then, there would be a mid level conference made up of the bottom tier of current FBS teams (mid majors) and the top level of current FCS teams, such as App, GSU, JMU, Mont., etc. Then, there would be what is currently the FCS teams,,,those smaller programs which are currently in the lower tier of FBS conferences. This would solve a lot of the current problems with mid majors not having access to BCS bowl games, championship games for some current FBS, and the current trend to put more FCS teams in the playoffs.

[ericsaid]

A group of 1-aa schools moving up a forming a conference would promote nothing for the schools that move up. Your still playing FCS schools for 8 out of 12 games. That's not going to attract recruits, and then your battling for a spot in the Meinike Carcare Bowl.

Your getting better recruits being at the top of FCS then being in a conference with all former FCS members and playing four OOC games that mean nothing because you wont win if you don't get the best players.

Teams that move up should move up individually into whatever conference they wish, but creating one is one of the dumbest things a group of FCS schools could do.

[crunifan]

If the schools could afford it, I think the MVC members of the Gateway (along with NDSU and SDSU) could make a pretty successful FBS conference. Especially with the basketball success of the MVC.

[BearsCountry]

If the schools could afford it, I think the MVC members of the Gateway (along with NDSU and SDSU) could make a pretty successful FBS conference. Especially with the basketball success of the MVC.

I agree.

[AppMan]

Which of course would put The Citadel in the same position as GSU. xnodx

I would say ASU but I will wait until LSU brings them back down to earth:o xsmiley_wix



kinda hard to say that after UM last yearxnodx

I'll take 14-1 and a 4th straight championship.

[SoCon48]

I'm not sure the whole SoCon could make the move, but a hybrid of SoCon and CAA members could.

ASU, Delaware, JMU, GSU, Citadel (nice stadium, good attendance and fiscal support) and then add ODU and UNCC when they get teams.

ASU, Del, JMU, GSU, Citadel? Sounds like a good conference. Problem I see is that only 3 of them would likely be interested and one of those needs to rise above mediocre in the FCS conference they're in first.

[IndianaAppMan]

ASU, Del, JMU, GSU, Citadel? Sounds like a good conference. Problem I see is that only 3 of them would likely be interested and one of those needs to rise above mediocre in the FCS conference they're in first.

Which school out of Delaware, JMU, GSU, and ASU do you think wouldn't be interested? Each of these schools is improving facilities dramatically. If timing and financing was right, which one do you think would not even consider?

[Syntax Error]

I'll take 14-1 and a 4th straight championship.So you think that would be better than a bowl win? What changed your mind?

[TonkaBison]

Here is a thought friend of mine saw for future of NCAA football as a whole. There would be a super division, made up of the top tier of FBS conferences,,those which are in the BCS every year. (SEC, ACC, Big 10, Big 12, Pac 10, Big East) for example. Then, there would be a mid level conference made up of the bottom tier of current FBS teams (mid majors) and the top level of current FCS teams, such as App, GSU, JMU, Mont., etc. Then, there would be what is currently the FCS teams,,,those smaller programs which are currently in the lower tier of FBS conferences. This would solve a lot of the current problems with mid majors not having access to BCS bowl games, championship games for some current FBS, and the current trend to put more FCS teams in the playoffs.

Actually, and this may sound somewhat rabid to some people, I am of the opinion that at some point the larger FBS schools may break away from the NCAA and form their own organization. I base this on part from the whole mascot issue which has had an impact on many schools including the U of North Dakota. While I am no fan of this I think it might become a reality. After enduring 5 years of NCAA purgatory and seeing the dismal state the NCAA allowed D-II drop to I am no major supporter of that body.

[SoCon48]

Which school out of Delaware, JMU, GSU, and ASU do you think wouldn't be interested? Each of these schools is improving facilities dramatically. If timing and financing was right, which one do you think would not even consider?

I was talking about the formation of a conference with the southern schools. Delaware has had many opportunities to schedule us and has refused. I can't see them nor JMU joinuing with us. JMU does at least schedule us, but i see them wanting to stay aligned with more mid-atlantic and fairly northern schools.

[thirdgendin]

Conferences make money from the NCAA basketball tournament (unless you get in a BCS football game). Starting a new conference would mean you go years without any of that money. That's the main reason I don't see this new FBS conference happening.

[OL FU]

I'll take 14-1 and a 4th straight championship.

I am sure you wouldxthumbsupx

[93henfan]

Delaware has had many opportunities to schedule us and has refused. I can't see them nor JMU joinuing with us.


xconfusedx xconfusedx xconfusedx

What other non-SoCon FCS schools have scheduled 7 or more regular season games with the SoCon in the past decade?

Delaware regular season SoCon matchups past 10 years:
2008 @ Furman
2003 - The Citadel
2002 - Georgia Southern and The Citadel
2001 - @ Georgia Southern
2000 - The Citadel
1999 - @ The Citadel

[PaladinFan]

Man, if the Citadel fans are this annoying beating us once every four years, what happens if they actually become good?

[SoCon48]

Man, if the Citadel fans are this annoying beating us once every four years, what happens if they actually become good?


I dunno. Just think back to '71 thru '77 when they FU'd the Paladins 7 straight times. Or the 4 straight starting in '01 for that matter.
How annoying was that?xeyebrowx

[elcid96]

xcoffeex xcoffeex xcoffeex
I dunno. Just think back to '71 thru '77 when they FU'd the Paladins 7 straight times. Or the 4 straight starting in '01 for that matter.
How annoying was that?xeyebrowx

[SoCon48]

xcoffeex

[OLDMAIN80]

xcoolx Whatever ya'll are smokin', just remember - sharin' time is happy timexpeacex

[OL FU]

I dunno. Just think back to '71 thru '77 when they FU'd the Paladins 7 straight times. Or the 4 straight starting in '01 for that matter.
How annoying was that?xeyebrowx

71 thru 77 is about as faint a memory as when we used to do the same to youxrolleyesx :(

AS far as four straight times starting in 01, they only beat us in '03 which fits perfectly with them winning 1 of 4 years. I can take that annoyance all the time

Next time stay outta the shinexsmiley_wix

[OL FU]

xcoffeex xcoffeex xcoffeex

So does that mean you think you beat us four straight times starting in '01xrotatehx xlolx

[AppGirl]

NO PLEASE!!! I happen to LIKE playing for a REAL championship! I don't want to move to the FBS!

[citdog]

Man, if THE Citadel fans are this annoying beating us once every four years, what happens if they actually become good?



HOW THICKHEADED AND STUPID ARE YOU VERMINITES?



54-51

[OL FU]

HOW THICKHEADED AND STUPID ARE YOU VERMINITES?



54-51

where is that neg rep button we have been talking so much about:p xlolx

[citdog]

where is that neg rep button we have been talking so much about:p xlolx

"ASK AND YE SHALL RECEIVE"

[Millwoch]

The SOCON used to be 1A and has a rich tradition of members that now make up the ACC and SEC. Should the Conference go back to being 1A(FBS). I can already proclaim that it would be better than a couple of FBS conferences.


Under current NCAA rules, only 2 teams would be eligible to do this. It does not depend on who you can beat, but size of stadium and average attendence. GSU and Appy would be the only 2, but The Citadel's stadium is just big enough, but not sure they meet the average attendence numbers.(it would be close)

This was looked at in the early 90s by Marshall(who did jump), Appy, and The Citadel(at the time we were winning and our ave attendence was several thousand higher than we have now). I recall the GSU was approached about joining a conference with the above, but it was before they joined the SOCON. A committee was formed by General Watts at The Citadel and I was privey to the details, as my father was appointed to the committee.

[citdog]

Under current NCAA rules, only 2 teams would be eligible to do this. It does not depend on who you can beat, but size of stadium and average attendence. GSU and Appy would be the only 2, but The Citadel's stadium is just big enough, but not sure they meet the average attendence numbers.(it would be close)

This was looked at in the early 90s by Marshall(who did jump), Appy, and The Citadel(at the time we were winning and our ave attendence was several thousand higher than we have now). I recall the GSU was approached about joining a conference with the above, but it was before they joined the SOCON. A committee was formed by General Watts at The Citadel and I was privey to the details, as my father was appointed to the committee.


millwoch.....always has the facts!xbowx xbowx

[Death Dealer]

HOW THICKHEADED AND STUPID ARE YOU VERMINITES?



54-51

53-30........................'nuff said.xcoffeex

[Death Dealer]

I dunno. Just think back to '71 thru '77 when they FU'd the Paladins 7 straight times. Or the 4 straight starting in '01 for that matter.How annoying was that?xeyebrowx
What? Are you a freakin' retard? Oh, that's right, it's IAA2006, nevermind.xrolleyesx

Do you just pull this shyt out of your @$$ or make it up, assuming that the rest of us won't notice? xeyebrowx

[SoCon48]

What? Are you a freakin' retard? Oh, that's right, it's IAA2006, nevermind.xrolleyesx

Do you just pull this shyt out of your @$$ or make it up, assuming that the rest of us won't notice? xeyebrowx

Duh, Einstein, was I the one who brought up the 1 out of 4 years or whatever win post? It really galls your arse that Cit actually ruled your Furballs at times. Probably won't be the last time.
Now it's about time for one of those Ingle Martin slipped on the ice posts.xrolleyesx xrolleyesx xrolleyesx

[SoCon48]

71 thru 77 is about as faint a memory as when we used to do the same to youxrolleyesx :(

AS far as four straight times starting in 01, they only beat us in '03 which fits perfectly with them winning 1 of 4 years. I can take that annoyance all the time

Next time stay outta the shinexsmiley_wix

AS far as four straight times starting in 01, they only beat us in '03 which fits perfectly with them winning 1 of 4 years. I can take that annoyance all the time

Obviously meant starting in '91 not '01.

[SoCon48]

What? Are you a freakin' retard? Oh, that's right, it's IAA2006, nevermind.xrolleyesx

Do you just pull this shyt out of your @$$ or make it up, assuming that the rest of us won't notice? xeyebrowx

You realize of course that the 7 in a row was correct, don't you? The other streak was supposed to be '91.
And no, I'm not a freakin' retard, but you are obviously a freakin' azzhole.

And uh, "go for two!"

[OL FU]

AS far as four straight times starting in 01, they only beat us in '03 which fits perfectly with them winning 1 of 4 years. I can take that annoyance all the time

Obviously meant starting in '91 not '01.

Then use the right year:p :D

I knew what you were talking about but I wasn't going to let you slidexsmiley_wix

[Death Dealer]

Duh, Einstein, was I the one who brought up the 1 out of 4 years or whatever win post? It really galls your arse that Cit actually ruled your Furballs at times. Probably won't be the last time.
Now it's about time for one of those Ingle Martin slipped on the ice posts.xrolleyesx xrolleyesx xrolleyesx
I don't call an approx. 36% record against us ruling anything accept the losing column. Try getting your facts straight next time, at least use the right date. What's your hard-on against the paladins anyway? All smack and fun aside, you always seem to come out of the woodwork whenever an opportunity to attack us comes around. What, did a Paladin run over your dog or something? xrolleyesx

[Death Dealer]

You realize of course that the 7 in a row was correct, don't you? The other streak was supposed to be '91.
And no, I'm not a freakin' retard, but you are obviously a freakin' azzhole.

And uh, "go for two!"
I never questioned the 7 in a row. And I knew which year you were talking about, I lived in Charleston all four of those years and sat through every unpleasant moment of those games. But next time get your dates right. I'm not gonna cut you any slack, you sure as hell don't evercut us any.

[Death Dealer]

Oh, and yes I am an azzhole, but it only seems to come out when I'm responding to you! xmadx xrolleyesx


Not even Citdog can bring it out in me. xlolx

[SoCon48]

Then use the right year:p :D

I knew what you were talking about but I wasn't going to let you slidexsmiley_wix


That's OK. At least you didn't call me a retard like the retard did. xsmhx

[soweagle]

Under current NCAA rules, only 2 teams would be eligible to do this. It does not depend on who you can beat, but size of stadium and average attendence. GSU and Appy would be the only 2, but The Citadel's stadium is just big enough, but not sure they meet the average attendence numbers.(it would be close)

This was looked at in the early 90s by Marshall(who did jump), Appy, and The Citadel(at the time we were winning and our ave attendence was several thousand higher than we have now). I recall the GSU was approached about joining a conference with the above, but it was before they joined the SOCON. A committee was formed by General Watts at The Citadel and I was privey to the details, as my father was appointed to the committee.

I could be wrong but I think the requirements have changed. I don't think stadium size is a factor anymore.

[Death Dealer]

That's OK. At least you didn't call me a retard. xsmhx
If the shoe fits. xrolleyesx

[Death Dealer]

Anyway, back to what this thread is about. I'd hate to see anyone leave for the FBS. It would be a great loss for the SOCON. But, each school has to decide what is best for themselves first and the SOCON second. If App or GSU decides that their future lies in a lower tier FBS conference, they should go. And, I'd wish them the best of luck, although it would be disappointing. As for us (FU), it just doesn't make sense for a school like ours to even consider it. Could we? Furman can do anything it sets its sights on, but why would we? All the FBS has to offer any school in the SOCON is the guarantee that they will never ever win another NC. Only three of us have, and I'd like to see more of them come home to the SOCON. It definitely wouldn't hurt my feelings if one more found it's way to Greenville. xlolx

[SoCon48]

If the shoe fits. xrolleyesx

As the azzhole shoe fits you perfectly.xcoffeex

[Death Dealer]

As the azzhole shoe fits you perfectly.xcoffeex

Don't get your panties in a wad Francis. You're absolutely right. xrolleyesx

[stevdock]

Well at least if the SoCon did move up to FBS, we could have a more rational discussion about who has the best conference in FCS. Of course it would be the CAA year in and year out then (at least that's what I read). Then again the SoCon would turn into another nobody with no chance of winning a National Championship every again.

[ASU]

The Apps would win at any level.

[catamount man]

"ASK AND YE SHALL RECEIVE"

Quoting Yeshua I see? xthumbsupx xthumbsupx xthumbsupx xlolx

[stevdock]

The Apps would win at any level.

Boy one win against an FBS team and one insane QB has the ego inflated just a touch. That's like saying we could win the Big Ten just cause we beat the worst team in the conference.

[SoCon48]

Your analogy falls apart with the "worst team in the conf" part. Mich wasn't the worst team in their conference. I mean like it wasn't UNC for goodness sakes.

[SoCon48]

Don't get your panties in a wad Francis. You're absolutely right. xrolleyesx

I know. Now go back to inflicting exscruciatingly painful root canals upon your victims.

[jcf5445]

Your analogy falls apart with the "worst team in the conf" part. Mich wasn't the worst team in their conference. I mean like it wasn't UNC for goodness sakes.

I believe he was referring to NDSU's win over Minnesota.

[The Cats]

I could be wrong but I think the requirements have changed. I don't think stadium size is a factor anymore.

Football Bowl Subdivision Requirements
An institution classified in Football Bowl Subdivision shall meet all the Division I membership requirements set forth in NCAA Division I Bylaws 20.9.1 through 20.9.5 and in addition, shall:
1. Sponsor a minimum of 16 varsity intercollegiate sports, including football, based on the minimum sports sponsorship and scheduling requirements set forth in Bylaw 20. Sponsorship shall include a minimum six sports involving all male teams or mixed teams (males and females), and a minimum of eight varsity intercollegiate teams involving all female teams. Institutions may use up to two emerging sports to satisfy the required eight varsity intercollegiate sports involving all female teams. [Bylaw 20.9.7.1]
2. Schedule and play at least 60 percent of its football contests against members of Football Bowl Subdivision. Institutions shall schedule and play at least five regular season home contests against Football Bowl Subdivision opponents. [Bylaw 20.9.7.2]
3. Average at least 15,000 in actual or paid attendance for all home football contests over a rolling two-year period. [Bylaw 20.9.7.3]
4. Provide an average of at least 90 percent of the permissible maximum number of overall football grants-in-aid per year over a rolling two-year period. [Bylaw 20.9.7.4-(a)]
5. Annually offer a minimum of 200 athletics grants-in-aid or expend at least four million dollars on grants-in-aid to student-athletes in athletics programs. [Bylaw 20.9.7.4-(b)]

[Sly Fox]

At Liberty we are on the cusp of qualifying if we can work out the scheduling. Of course if there were a new league it would solve that issue.

And we fit nicely in the middle of an alliance involving GSU, ASU, JMU and UD for travel purposes. :D

[IndianaAppMan]

At Liberty we are on the cusp of qualifying if we can work out the scheduling. Of course if there were a new league it would solve that issue.

And we fit nicely in the middle of an alliance involving GSU, ASU, JMU and UD for travel purposes. :D

Even if Liberty did meet the NCAA's guidelines for FBS, wouldn't it be enormously burdensome for that school, at least in the foreseeable future? I mean, what purpose would moving up serve, anyway?

Recognition? Uh, no. Just about everybody knows who Liberty is thanks to its founder. Improving academics? C'mon. It's not as though nearby schools like W&M, Furman, Davidson, Wofford, etc. suffer because they're not FBS. Would it help with athletics? Maybe, but I think it would set Liberty back at this point. They've only made the playoffs once... how's that going to translate against FBS teams?

Being both small and new, it's not as though Liberty has massive numbers of alumni to support an FBS program. If there are enough wealthy donors to make it possible, and it's what the school wants, then that's what should be done; however, such a move appears ill-advised. xeyebrowx




As for the SoCon, moving to FBS as a group just ain't happening. To those who insist otherwise, please cite one influential representative (i.e., administration, coach, AD, big-time donor, etc.) from The Citadel, Samford, Elon, Furman, Wofford, Nooga, or Western who has expressed interest in going FBS. If anyone can do that, I would gladly reconsider my argument. Only Ga. Southern and App State have even considered it, and App State officials publicly state that it's not a current priority. (Keep in mind that CofC, UNCG, & Davidson don't play SoCon football, anyway).

SoCon to the FBS may be a cute idea, but all evidence I've ever seen shows it will remain exactly that: an idea.

[Sly Fox]

Other than equivalencies, in what way would a move up to a regional FBS conference be particularly burdensome? We already support enough programs with several more announced on the horizon in the next couple of years. And if a long suggested regional league were created it wouldn't add much travel to our Big South budget.

And for the record, Liberty is not as tiny as some folks seem to believe. We are as large as most private FBS schools and we are growing at a rapid rate.

We do suffer from a relatively small alumni base. But it is growing along with the school and we do have some big pocketed benefactors who are behind this effort. Our attendance has been up significantly the past two years.

We have made our intentions of eventually moving up known for some time now. While it is still several years away, I wouldn't rule us out of any alliance of FCS schools in the region stepping up together.

[CID1990]

Perhaps the REAL question here would be... "Should the SoCon move back to FBS even though they would be a Mid-Major FBS conference?"

When the SoCon was I-A it consisted of teams like West Virginia, UNC, etc. The SoCon never moved down, it's just that the big time schools moved out and formed a new conference once the I-A/I-AA levels were established. If the SoCon decided to make a move to FBS, the best we could hope for is to compete at the mid-major level. There is no way that the SoCon could ever be a BCS conference unless we lost Furman, The Citadel and a couple others, and traded them for teams like ECU and maybe through some weird shake up brought WVU back into the fold. EVEN THEN only maybe.

I like the idea of being able to at least have a realistic chance each year of being able to actually play for a national championship. Even though only two teams actually get to do that, when the season starts everyone is on the same level.

If we were FBS then the conference champ could go undefeated, beat Bowling Green in whatever Toilet Bowl we have a guarantee with, and still not crack the top 25.

In FCS if you go undefeated for the season that equals National Championship. We don't have to play the mid majors to know that for the most part, the top 20 FCS teams can have winning records against the top 20 mid majors. The know it, too. I don't think that teams like ASU should have anything to prove against the Kent States and the Ohios of the world. If we were FBS, that's who they would be playing at the end of the season. Is that really a better place than we all are now?

[IndianaAppMan]

Not to be nitpicky, but the only big-time school to split off in the 70's to 1A football, when the I-A/I-AA split was initiated, was ECU. Every other pre I-A/I-AA split team left long before. WVU left in 1968. Every other former member is either in another FCS conference or doesn't field a football team, except for Marshall, which left in 1997.

[Seawolf97]

Good thread but what about the other sports? Funding big time basketball male and female, baseball, soccer, softball etc all would have to upgraded. Thats an additional financial burden-especially if facilities have to be upgraded as well.

[Sly Fox]

We are already Division I so any additional funding would be discretionary in non-football spending.

[gophoenix]

Under current NCAA rules, only 2 teams would be eligible to do this. It does not depend on who you can beat, but size of stadium and average attendence. GSU and Appy would be the only 2, but The Citadel's stadium is just big enough, but not sure they meet the average attendence numbers.(it would be close)

This was looked at in the early 90s by Marshall(who did jump), Appy, and The Citadel(at the time we were winning and our ave attendence was several thousand higher than we have now). I recall the GSU was approached about joining a conference with the above, but it was before they joined the SOCON. A committee was formed by General Watts at The Citadel and I was privey to the details, as my father was appointed to the committee.

But I thought the stadium size requirement was gone and it is only a 15,000 fan per game average over the course of a few seasons. And this would start with the transition years, not with current years.

So, if the entire SoCon wanted to start that transition, they could start now with a clean slate. Play some FCS and FBS schools, get the scholarships handed out and play some FBS teams at home that would boost the attendance, plus get creative with ticket counting like a lot of schools, and bam, you're there.

Really, there is no reason to think that anyone in the SoCon couldn't make the move. Sure you can joke about who does and doesn't bring in fans presently, but when all is said and done, it could be done and made to work without much of a hitch. Ultimately, it is just money and most of us already have the 16 sports (GSU/UTC has 15, Western 14).

Would it be a good decision for all of who, who knows? But it could be done by any of us.

[AppMan]

Not to be nitpicky, but the only big-time school to split off in the 70's to 1A football, when the I-A/I-AA split was initiated, was ECU. Every other pre I-A/I-AA split team left long before. WVU left in 1968. Every other former member is either in another FCS conference or doesn't field a football team, except for Marshall, which left in 1997.

Technically, ECU withdrew the year (1977) prior to Division One being spilt into subdivisions. Admittedly there was a lot dicsussion leading up to the split 1978 and everyone knew it was pretty much a done deal. However, the SoCon didn't get caught up in it until 1982 when the NCAA forced several conferences into 1-aa. Kind of hard to believe West Virginia was still in the SoCon until 1969 when the conference consisted of The Citadel, Davidson, ECU, Furman, George Washington, Richmond, VMI, and Bill & Mary. It is difficult for people born in the 80's to believe that collection of schools would be in the same league. Unbelieveable how much college athletics has changed over the past 40 years.

[AppMan]

Good thread but what about the other sports? Funding big time basketball male and female, baseball, soccer, softball etc all would have to upgraded. Thats an additional financial burden-especially if facilities have to be upgraded as well.

Since everyone playing FCS is already Division One I would suspect most are funding the full compliment of scholarships in the major sports. The problems show up in the so-called Olympic Sports. To play at the FBS level a school must field a minimum of 14 sports (7 each, or 6 men and 8 women) and award a total of 200 FULL athletic grants. The football program must average 15,000 (butts in the seats) per home game over a rolling two year period and award 90% of the 85 full grants over a two year period. That's it. IMO, the new rules actually made it easier to achieve FBS status. A program can now play in a 17,000 seat stadium and meet the attendance requirements. wher the old rules required the institution to invest millions in building 30,000 seat stadiums. Schools can take thoee dollars being spent on stadium construction and put them towards awarding more scholarships. Obviously there are additional costs like additional coaching salaries and staff, but the top level of FCS programs already have sufficient people in place to make the transition. I can only speak for ASU, but thanks to the recent facility upgrades, the Mountaineers are as in good of shape as a lot of mid to lower tier FBS programs. This year the Yosef Scholarship Club will come close to surpassing the $2.5 million mark. Considering the average cost of of a scholarship at ASU (50% in state & 50% out) is $15,000, that would put us around 170 fully funded grants. Since ASU awards far more in state scholarships than out, I have to believe we are pretty darn close to the required 200.

[SoCon48]

But I thought the stadium size requirement was gone and it is only a 15,000 fan per game average over the course of a few seasons. And this would start with the transition years, not with current years.

So, if the entire SoCon wanted to start that transition, they could start now with a clean slate. Play some FCS and FBS schools, get the scholarships handed out and play some FBS teams at home that would boost the attendance, plus get creative with ticket counting like a lot of schools, and bam, you're there.

Really, there is no reason to think that anyone in the SoCon couldn't make the move. Sure you can joke about who does and doesn't bring in fans presently, but when all is said and done, it could be done and made to work without much of a hitch. Ultimately, it is just money and most of us already have the 16 sports (GSU/UTC has 15, Western 14).

Would it be a good decision for all of who, who knows? But it could be done by any of us.

plus get creative with ticket counting like a lot of schools, and bam, you're there.


The creative ticket counting is done by having someone buy them up.

[SoCon48]

But I thought the stadium size requirement was gone and it is only a 15,000 fan per game average over the course of a few seasons. And this would start with the transition years, not with current years.

So, if the entire SoCon wanted to start that transition, they could start now with a clean slate. Play some FCS and FBS schools, get the scholarships handed out and play some FBS teams at home that would boost the attendance, plus get creative with ticket counting like a lot of schools, and bam, you're there.

Really, there is no reason to think that anyone in the SoCon couldn't make the move. Sure you can joke about who does and doesn't bring in fans presently, but when all is said and done, it could be done and made to work without much of a hitch. Ultimately, it is just money and most of us already have the 16 sports (GSU/UTC has 15, Western 14).

Would it be a good decision for all of who, who knows? But it could be done by any of us.

Wofford and Samford?????

[gophoenix]

Wofford and Samford?????

Wofford and Samford? Maybe, why not. All it amounts to is money. If the money is there, you can make it work.

Which goes back to my creative ticket counting, just because someone buys the tickets and doesn't show up, should it count? That's a question for the ages and one answer could affect a bunch of schools already in FBS.

Which kind of gets down to my point. If schools in FBS that pay their coaches less than what Elon pays Lembo and skate through on non-attended game's ticket revenue (if that is ac accurate way to put it) then it is really simply about getting money to fund football scholarships and equivalent Title IX scholarships, starting more sports if you aren't at 16 (most of us are at that or more) and then getting big donors and corporations to buy tickets they may not use and getting a few big names games at the stadium to cook the numbers. And I don't mean big like App coming to Elon. I mean big like Auburn going to play at someone like UAB.

[Marcus Garvey]

If the Southern Conference moves up to I-A (or FBS, you say po-tay-toh, I say po-tah-toh), then they ought to rename the conference Sun Belt II!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


ZING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[IndianaAppMan]

Wofford and Samford? Maybe, why not. All it amounts to is money. If the money is there, you can make it work.

Which goes back to my creative ticket counting, just because someone buys the tickets and doesn't show up, should it count? That's a question for the ages and one answer could affect a bunch of schools already in FBS.

Which kind of gets down to my point. If schools in FBS that pay their coaches less than what Elon pays Lembo and skate through on non-attended game's ticket revenue (if that is ac accurate way to put it) then it is really simply about getting money to fund football scholarships and equivalent Title IX scholarships, starting more sports if you aren't at 16 (most of us are at that or more) and then getting big donors and corporations to buy tickets they may not use and getting a few big names games at the stadium to cook the numbers. And I don't mean big like App coming to Elon. I mean big like Auburn going to play at someone like UAB.

This whole thread is so hypothetical that we might as well be in la-la land. Could the WHOLE SoCon move back to the FBS one day? Sure. Nothing's impossible, and nobody knows for certain what the future will be like 10-20 years down the road.

No disrespect intended, but going FBS is more far-fetched for some schools than others. App State and GSU have things in place to make the move NOW (not that they'd be ready, though), so, yes, after the moratorium, they could do it. That doesn't mean they should. As for everyone else, especially programs like Samford & UTC, who are struggling just to maintain themselves, it's just hypothetical mumbo-jumbo. Like I said, anything is possible. No one could have predicted twenty years ago that Boise State would one day cap an undefeated FBS season with a win over Big 12 champ Oklahoma. No one can say that Samford won't have the same results one day, but there is zero basis to say that it will.

[JetsLuvver]

I don't think anyone should move up for a while. If anything, a number of I-A schools should be dropping down. Temple should be in the Patriot League, Buffalo in the NEC, Idaho and Utah State in the Big Sky, Marshall back in the SoCon, ULL and ULM back in the Southland.

[AppMan]

I think the 200 total scholarships requirement would be the largest hurdle for private schools to overcome. However, since those schools are not held accountable to state criteria in meeting funding numbers, they have a lot of institutional discretion in deciding what the cost of an athletic scholarship is. The one thing I do not know is if the NCAA requires it to be the same dollar amount as those awarded to the general student body.

[SoCon48]

The one thing I do not know is if the NCAA requires it to be the same dollar amount as those awarded to the general student body.

Interesting.

[IndianaAppMan]

I don't think anyone should move up for a while. If anything, a number of I-A schools should be dropping down. Temple should be in the Patriot League, Buffalo in the NEC, Idaho and Utah State in the Big Sky, Marshall back in the SoCon, ULL and ULM back in the Southland.

I can see why you'd mention the other schools, but Marshall? Just because they've had a few losing seasons doesn't mean they should move back to the SoCon. For their first seven or eight years in FBS, they were very successful, especially for a newbie in FBS. Granted, they did bend the rules a bit. Still, they've had way to many good things going for them to return to FCS.

[The Cats]

Which goes back to my creative ticket counting, just because someone buys the tickets and doesn't show up, should it count? That's a question for the ages and one answer could affect a bunch of schools already in FBS.

The official answers...........

Attendance Requirements

Q. Is the minimum attendance requirement based on all home football contests or only on the minimum number of home football contests necessary to satisfy the scheduling requirements?
A. An institution annually shall average at least 15,000 in attendance for all home football contests. [Bylaw 20.9.7.3]

Q. How does a Football Bowl Subdivision institution satisfy the 15,000 attendance requirement for all home games?
A. A Football Bowl Subdivision institution shall average at least 15,000 in actual OR paid attendance for all home football contests over a rolling two-year period. [Bylaw 20.9.7.3]

Q. For purposes of computing actual attendance figures, what criteria must be satisfied to count an individual as an attendee?
A. An individual may be counted in the actual attendance figures if any one of the following conditions apply:
1. Attendees are issued tickets that are collected on admission to the game and retained;
2. Attendees enter through and are counted by a turnstile that is monitored by a representative of the department of athletics who verifies in writing the accuracy of the count on a per contest basis; or
3. Attendees enter through a gate at which a representative of the department of athletics counts them individually with a manual counter (or electronic scanner), and the representative provides a written statement verifying the accuracy of the count on a per contest basis. [Bylaw 20.9.7.3.1.1]

Q. For purposes of computing paid attendance figures, what criteria must be satisfied to count an individual as an attendee?
A. Tickets must be sold for at least one-third of the highest regular established ticket price as established prior to the season, regardless of whether they are used for admission in order to be used in calculating paid attendance figures. Tickets sold at less than one-third of the highest regular established price may be counted as paid attendance only if they are used for admission. Student attendance may be counted as paid attendance if the student pays at least one-third of the highest regular established ticket price or, if the student actually attends the game and any one of the following conditions applies:
1. The student paid an athletics fee;
2. The student paid an institutional fee of which a certain portion was allocated to the department of athletics; or
3. The student paid no athletics fee, but the institution allocated to the department of athletics a certain portion of tuition income or general operating funds as the equivalent of a student athletics fee. [Bylaw 20.9.7.3.1.2]

Q. Is it permissible for an institution to satisfy the paid attendance requirement by allocating an amount of student fees equal to or greater than one-third of the institution’s highest established ticket price, regardless of whether the student tickets are used for admission?
A. No. Such tickets may be used to meet the paid attendance requirement only if the student actually attends the contest. [Membership Subcommittee 10/16/06]

Q. How is student attendance verified?
A. Student attendance must be verified through one of the following methods:
1. Such students are issued tickets that are collected at the time of admission to the game and retained;
2. Such students enter through and are counted by a turnstile (which is not used by others in attendance) that is monitored by a representative of the department of athletics who verifies in writing the accuracy of the count on a per game basis; or
3. Such students enter through a gate (that is not used by others in attendance) at which a representative of the department of athletics counts them individually with a manual counter, and the representative provides a written statement verifying the accuracy of
the count on a per-game basis. [Bylaw 20.9.7.3.1.2.1]

Q. Is it permissible to include attendees (e.g., players, cheerleaders) who are participants in the contest in satisfying the 15,000 attendance requirement?
A. No. Attendees (e.g., players, cheerleaders) or students performing services at the stadium (e.g., concessionaires, ticket takers, parking lot attendants, ushers, groundskeepers) who are participating in the contest in any manner shall not be included in determining if the institution has satisfied the 15,000 attendance requirement. [Bylaw 20.9.7.3.1.2.1.1]

Q. Is it permissible to include band members when calculating attendance?
A. Yes. Band members performing at the event may be included in the count for actual or paid attendance figures provided attendance is verified in the same manner as any other student. [NCAA Division I Management Council Membership Subcommittee 10/16/05]

Q. May an institution use both the actual and paid methods when calculating attendance in the same academic year?
A. No. An institution must use the same calculating method (i.e., actual or paid) for the entire academic year; however, an institution is permitted to use the actual attendance calculating method during one academic year and the paid attendance calculating method in a subsequent academic year (or vice versa) in order to meet the Football Bowl Subdivision
attendance requirement.

Q. How does an institution verify compliance with the football attendance requirements?
A. An institution must undertake an annual certified audit verifying its football attendance. It is not necessary for the audit to be conducted by an auditing firm outside of the institution. The audited football attendance figures must be received in the NCAA national office not later than February 15 following completion of the football season and the national office shall verify compliance with all Football Bowl Subdivision attendance requirements. The certified audited materials (including the ticket manifest) must be available for inspection for a four-year period. [Bylaw 20.9.7.3.2]

Q. Is the certified audit requirement necessary for certifying actual or paid attendance?
A. A certified audit is required to verify football attendance for the purpose of meeting Football Bowl Subdivision football membership requirements regardless of whether the paid or actual attendance method of computing attendance figures is used. [NCAA Proposal No. M-2005-6]

[gophoenix]

This whole thread is so hypothetical that we might as well be in la-la land. Could the WHOLE SoCon move back to the FBS one day? Sure. Nothing's impossible, and nobody knows for certain what the future will be like 10-20 years down the road.

No disrespect intended, but going FBS is more far-fetched for some schools than others. App State and GSU have things in place to make the move NOW (not that they'd be ready, though), so, yes, after the moratorium, they could do it. That doesn't mean they should. As for everyone else, especially programs like Samford & UTC, who are struggling just to maintain themselves, it's just hypothetical mumbo-jumbo. Like I said, anything is possible. No one could have predicted twenty years ago that Boise State would one day cap an undefeated FBS season with a win over Big 12 champ Oklahoma. No one can say that Samford won't have the same results one day, but there is zero basis to say that it will.

Absolutely, but the thread was about the conference. I am not measuring success or probable success or failure. All I was saying is it is just about money ultimately if you go to FBS or not. And since it is about money solely more than anything, there is no reason to think that a good number of FCS couldn't do it. Heck, I can think of 60 or so that could probably do it relatively easily if they came up with the money.

I agree App is alone in the best possible position. GSU still has to add another sport (they don't offer as many sports as Elon or Furman presently). And one has to wonder if to get the 200 scholarships, how that affects the Georgia students on Hope scholarships that allows them to offer less scholarships right now.

[gophoenix]

I think the 200 total scholarships requirement would be the largest hurdle for private schools to overcome. However, since those schools are not held accountable to state criteria in meeting funding numbers, they have a lot of institutional discretion in deciding what the cost of an athletic scholarship is. The one thing I do not know is if the NCAA requires it to be the same dollar amount as those awarded to the general student body.

They do, for tuition at least. But again, it is just money.

[SoCon48]

The official answers...........

Attendance Requirements

o. M-2005-6]

Great piece of research, there, Cats. Takes all the assumptions out of the discussion.

[SoCon48]

They do, for tuition at least. But again, it is just money.
One thing you have to consider, if a priv school spends too much on the schollys' and juking the ticket sales, they have to have enough left to pay a FBS level coach and pay the other expenses of the program.
Plus keep the alumni happy by manicuring all the campus lawns and shrubs.
;)

[IndianaAppMan]

Instead of debating delusions of the SoCon becoming an FBS conference, I think a much more realistic, but still ambtious, goal would be for the SoCon to be one of the better basketball conferences in Division 1. xnodx Right now, there is doubt whether the SoCon is even the best FCS conference. The CAA has made a decent case that it might be better, although I still believe the SoCon's case is stronger. In the other highly-publicized sport (basketball), the SoCon is still a one-bid conference, and if my memory serves correctly, it has been that way for decades. Meanwhile, other FCS conferences, or conferences composed largely of FCS teams, have had multiple bids, which has raised their national profile significantly.

Doesn't everyone remember when the CAA sent 3 teams to the NCAA's, w/ George Mason making the Final Four? Why couldn't that be the SoCon? If the ultimate goal is to raise the conference's profile, wouldn't better basketball be a more likely scenario? I don't think it would that far fetched to have seen, for instance, NCAA-bids by App State, Elon, and Davidson, for example, in one season.

My suggestion is not that the SoCon could rival the BCS leagues, but I could imagine, with the current roster of teams, the SoCon rivaling the CAA, Sun Belt, or Mo. Valley.

[gophoenix]

Instead of debating delusions of the SoCon becoming an FBS conference, I think a much more realistic, but still ambtious, goal would be for the SoCon to be one of the better basketball conferences in Division 1. xnodx Right now, there is doubt whether the SoCon is even the best FCS conference. The CAA has made a decent case that it might be better, although I still believe the SoCon's case is stronger. In the other highly-publicized sport (basketball), the SoCon is still a one-bid conference, and if my memory serves correctly, it has been that way for decades. Meanwhile, other FCS conferences, or conferences composed largely of FCS teams, have had multiple bids, which has raised their national profile significantly.

Doesn't everyone remember when the CAA sent 3 teams to the NCAA's, w/ George Mason making the Final Four? Why couldn't that be the SoCon? If the ultimate goal is to raise the conference's profile, wouldn't better basketball be a more likely scenario? I don't think it would that far fetched to have seen, for instance, NCAA-bids by App State, Elon, and Davidson, for example, in one season.

My suggestion is not that the SoCon could rival the BCS leagues, but I could imagine, with the current roster of teams, the SoCon rivaling the CAA, Sun Belt, or Mo. Valley.

Well by that, I think if you look at the SoCon as a whole for team sports, you will see that as a whole in Baseball, Men's Tennis, Golf and Men's Soccer that the case can already be made that it rivals the tradition non-BCS top conferences, if not some of the traditional BCS leagues. Heck, so do some of the other top FCS conferences too in the Miz Valley and CAA.

But you are right with one thing, we suck in basketball and have gotten worse overall for some reason. Elon is better than it was in basketball, which is really saying very little. Outside of Davidson, the entire conference pretty much sucks. You'd think, at least, that UNCG and CoC would be able to dominate the rest of us, which they flat out don't do.

[gophoenix]

One thing you have to consider, if a priv school spends too much on the schollys' and juking the ticket sales, they have to have enough left to pay a FBS level coach and pay the other expenses of the program.
Plus keep the alumni happy by manicuring all the campus lawns and shrubs.
;)

Hehe

Which kind of makes me wonder about schollies. I don't really understand how they really affect the budget of the schools. I mean, how much of a hit really is it to offer scholarships whether public or private. How do scholarships affect the business of the school? Say, you offer 20 more right now without taking Title IX into consideration. What does that really mean? Is it viewed as a loss? Does it have to be "paid" somehow out of another budget? Or is it just viewed as a loss that is covered somehow by other incomes? That gets into business that, I'll be honest, doesn't quite make sense to me.

Manicuring the lawns is another budget altogether! ;)

[The Cats]

Great piece of research, there, Cats. Takes all the assumptions out of the discussion.

Well.... is that good or bad? xoopsx

[SoCon48]

Well.... is that good or bad? xoopsx

I say good. I get tired of peeps floating opinions and assumptions as facts.

[SoCon48]

Hehe

Which kind of makes me wonder about schollies. I don't really understand how they really affect the budget of the schools. I mean, how much of a hit really is it to offer scholarships whether public or private. How do scholarships affect the business of the school? Say, you offer 20 more right now without taking Title IX into consideration. What does that really mean? Is it viewed as a loss? Does it have to be "paid" somehow out of another budget? Or is it just viewed as a loss that is covered somehow by other incomes? That gets into business that, I'll be honest, doesn't quite make sense to me.

Manicuring the lawns is another budget altogether! ;)

The cost of scholarships is a big hit. Public schools can't shift funds around like some privates do. People go to jail for that or at the least get their school in dutch with the NCAA.

We at App are only now, after all these years, getting close to having donations cover the schollys we give. With some privates, they could, with a charismatic, persuasive chancellor just shift funds over to cover them or dream up new academic scholarships to pay for students who just happen to play a varsity sport.

On an aside, it is estimated that Harvard has enough money in the Harvard trust to pay every undergrad student's tuition for several years without depleting the fund.xconfusedx
UNC has a trust that rivals many private schools.

[BBB]

doubtful, many Charlestonians go to Columbia or Clemson on gameday.


and many of them are alums of the schools in Columbia and Clemson.

Moving the entire SoCon up is a bad idea. PERIOD.