LFN: Has FCS Forgotten About The Patriot League?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com

It sure as heck seems like it, with Fordham barely cracking the AGS Poll and getting shut out of Lindy's poll. And that's still one better than the Ivy League, who had last year's champion (Harvard) shut out of the Top 25 and ranked Yale one shot below Fordham.

Those out-of-conference games loom ever larger. If you're a Patriot League fan, you should be rooting hard for Lehigh over Villanova, Colgate over Furman, Fordham over Rhode Island and others this year.

[LUHawker]

I'm not sure it is a question of forgetting, but rather more of a question of caring. While the PL playoff representative(s) in the last few years have, to quote another poster, "stood toe-to-toe" with their opponents, the reality is that the PL hasn't won a playoff game since Colgate's magical run to the NC game in 2003. Yes there were multiple darn close calls against JMU, App St., Delaware and UMass, but close doesn't count. Moreover, the PL hasn't exactly done great in out of conference play either. There was the domination by the Ivies in 2006, losses by Colgate and Lehigh to then-non-scholly NEC teams, Bucknell and G'Town getting embarassed by traditionally weaker teams and few victories over full-scholly schools (LU over Villanova in '06 and Colgate over Umass come to mind, but there aren't many). Until the PL can win some more OOC games and produce a playoff victory or two, it will continue to be relegated to after-thought status in the world of FCS.

[Go...gate]

The scholarship/equivalency issue has not helped things.

[Franks Tanks]

I'm not sure it is a question of forgetting, but rather more of a question of caring. While the PL playoff representative(s) in the last few years have, to quote another poster, "stood toe-to-toe" with their opponents, the reality is that the PL hasn't won a playoff game since Colgate's magical run to the NC game in 2003. Yes there were multiple darn close calls against JMU, App St., Delaware and UMass, but close doesn't count. Moreover, the PL hasn't exactly done great in out of conference play either. There was the domination by the Ivies in 2006, losses by Colgate and Lehigh to then-non-scholly NEC teams, Bucknell and G'Town getting embarassed by traditionally weaker teams and few victories over full-scholly schools (LU over Villanova in '06 and Colgate over Umass come to mind, but there aren't many). Until the PL can win some more OOC games and produce a playoff victory or two, it will continue to be relegated to after-thought status in the world of FCS.


These things were happening quite often a few years back so its not like it has never happened before. Whatever monentum we had going with Lehigh's great run from 98-2002 ish and Colgate in 2003 has pretty much ceased at this point.

[FCS Go!]

I'm not sure it is a question of forgetting, but rather more of a question of caring. While the PL playoff representative(s) in the last few years have, to quote another poster, "stood toe-to-toe" with their opponents, the reality is that the PL hasn't won a playoff game since Colgate's magical run to the NC game in 2003. Yes there were multiple darn close calls against JMU, App St., Delaware and UMass, but close doesn't count. Moreover, the PL hasn't exactly done great in out of conference play either. There was the domination by the Ivies in 2006, losses by Colgate and Lehigh to then-non-scholly NEC teams, Bucknell and G'Town getting embarassed by traditionally weaker teams and few victories over full-scholly schools (LU over Villanova in '06 and Colgate over Umass come to mind, but there aren't many). Until the PL can win some more OOC games and produce a playoff victory or two, it will continue to be relegated to after-thought status in the world of FCS.

I think you nailed it. xnodx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I'm not sure it is a question of forgetting, but rather more of a question of caring. While the PL playoff representative(s) in the last few years have, to quote another poster, "stood toe-to-toe" with their opponents, the reality is that the PL hasn't won a playoff game since Colgate's magical run to the NC game in 2003. Yes there were multiple darn close calls against JMU, App St., Delaware and UMass, but close doesn't count. Moreover, the PL hasn't exactly done great in out of conference play either. There was the domination by the Ivies in 2006, losses by Colgate and Lehigh to then-non-scholly NEC teams, Bucknell and G'Town getting embarassed by traditionally weaker teams and few victories over full-scholly schools (LU over Villanova in '06 and Colgate over Umass come to mind, but there aren't many). Until the PL can win some more OOC games and produce a playoff victory or two, it will continue to be relegated to after-thought status in the world of FCS.

I agree. I think the OOC wins and the playoff runs are even more crucial for PL teams since they're tied so closely to the Ivies. It's frustrating, though, since the Ivy champion could beat the tar out of a good portion of the Top 25 every year, and wins over Yale and Harvard are definitely "quality wins". Unfortunately to pollsters, they're no-win situations.

[RabidRabbit]

FCS hasn't forgotten the Patriot, there is just too many talented leagues playing tougher OOC games than the next door neighbors, Ivy/NEC/low side of CAA.

No FBS games, and more D-II type games. As well expressed by LUHawker, need to win the OOC's and play-off games to move up with the CAA, Southern and Gateway in respect.xtwocentsx

[Franks Tanks]

FCS hasn't forgotten the Patriot, there is just too many talented leagues playing tougher OOC games than the next door neighbors, Ivy/NEC/low side of CAA.

No FBS games, and more D-II type games. As well expressed by LUHawker, need to win the OOC's and play-off games to move up with the CAA, Southern and Gateway in respect.xtwocentsx

I understand what you are saying, but the PL actually plays very few D-II games. Lafayette has not played a D-II since 1996 for example.

[Go...gate]

I understand what you are saying, but the PL actually plays very few D-II games. Lafayette has not played a D-II since 1996 for example.

Has any PL played a D-II recently? I think the league embargoed all such games at least a decade ago.

[89Hen]

It's frustrating, though, since the Ivy champion could beat the tar out of a good portion of the Top 25 every year
How do we know that? I can recall a couple of 7-0 Ivy teams losing OOC recently (Harvard last year and Penn a couple years ago). Have the Ivy's beaten anyone outside of the Ivy or PL of note?

[Franks Tanks]

Has any PL played a D-II recently? I think the league embargoed all such games at least a decade ago.

I cant recall any. I also am not aware of any formal ban but wouldnt be surpirsed if one did exist.

[danefan]

Another issue is the NEC and PFL's former mid-major stigma has somewhat been attributed to you by way of losses. Recognizing that the NEC and PFL have increased their talent at the top of the leagues, I think people are assuming that the PL level has been lowered. I don't think that's true, but that what I think others see.

For example. The PL was definitely hurt in the preseason poll and in last year's polls because of Fordham's losses to Albany and Dayton.

[Go...gate]

Another issue is the NEC and PFL's former mid-major stigma has somewhat been attributed to you by way of losses. Recognizing that the NEC and PFL have increased their talent at the top of the leagues, I think people are assuming that the PL level has been lowered. I don't think that's true, but that what I think others see.

For example. The PL was definitely hurt in the preseason poll and in last year's polls because of Fordham's losses to Albany and Dayton.

IMO, in years to come it may also be reflected in perpetual first-week playoff games for PL teams regardless of record, which makes the play-off run that much harder. And I don't believe the Presidents give a hoot about it.

[danefan]

IMO, in years to come it may also be reflected in perpetual first-week playoff games for PL teams regardless of record, which makes the play-off run that much harder. And I don't believe the Presidents give a hoot about it.

I agree. I can already see the regionalization excuses for the first week playoff games to include:

NEC champion
PL champion
Two of the following three:
MEAC champ
Big South champ
last CAA team in

[Model Citizen]

Detroit Flyer wasn't the first one to mention Dayton.

WTF. Did he get banned?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Has any PL played a D-II recently? I think the league embargoed all such games at least a decade ago.

I don't know of any formal embargo, but I can't recall any recently. Peeking at the record book the last one I saw was 1995 when Bucknell played Southern Conn. I know that there were years as well that Bucknell went to a 10-game schedule rather than schedule a D-II.

G'Town as long as they've been members have played a full D-I schedule, and they did so in 2000 too before they were full members.

[danefan]

Detroit Flyer wasn't the first one to mention Dayton.

WTF. Did he get banned?

Don't worry he's probably working. Just wait until he reads this thread. xrolleyesx

[TheValleyRaider]

The OVC and MEAC manage to get multiple bids and high rankings, and neither of them has won a playoff game since 2000 (and that was Western Kentucky, who doesn't even play in the OVC anymore)

xrolleyesx

I, at the very least, am not asking the Patriot League to be considered with the CAA/SoCon/Gateways of the world. We're not that level consistantly, nor are we going to be, and that's alright. It's difficult given the restrictions our schools have put on themselves. That being said, I don't think LFN is out of line here in wondering where some recognition for us has gone

To my knowledge, the last D-II the PL played was CW Post, who lost to Fordham in 2003

[DFW HOYA]

PL games since 1996 versus lower division opponents:

Bucknell: None
Colgate: None
Fordham (1): CW Post, 2003
Georgetown: None
Holy Cross: None
Lafayette (1): Millersville St., 1996
Lehigh: None

[DetroitFlyer]

You know, I do seem to recall the Flyers defeating the PL Champion last season.... I guess that the anti-PFL bias is infecting the PL.... Can you imagine the impact if Drake and Dayton both win their PL games this year...? As a PFL fan, I find it almost funny that another conference is worried about FCS forgetting about them.... Try being a fan of the PFL....

[Go...gate]

You know, I do seem to recall the Flyers defeating the PL Champion last season.... I guess that the anti-PFL bias is infecting the PL.... Can you imagine the impact if Drake and Dayton both win their PL games this year...? As a PFL fan, I find it almost funny that another conference is worried about FCS forgetting about them.... Try being a fan of the PFL....

And, after your limitless woofing about it, I am certain that Fordham is looking forward to playing you again.

[Syntax Error]

PL games since 1996 versus lower division opponents:

Bucknell: None
Colgate: None
Fordham (1): CW Post, 2003
Georgetown: None
Holy Cross: None
Lafayette (1): Millersville St., 1996
Lehigh: NoneWow, has any conference other than the Ivy League played such a high percentage of D-I games since 1996? Which conference plays the highest percentage of non-D-I games?

[Seawolf97]

I think the combination of no scholarships and the AI has hurt and will continue to be a negative factor on recruiting. PL teams as I see it are good and have a great history and always have name recognition when you play them. Hopefully the administrations will step up and make some changes to keep football competitive in the years to come.

[ngineer]

PL teams have to make some of their own noise, pure and simple. When we start beating some of the 'higher eschelon' teams, recognition will follow.

[CrusaderBob]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com

It sure as heck seems like it, with Fordham barely cracking the AGS Poll and getting shut out of Lindy's poll. And that's still one better than the Ivy League, who had last year's champion (Harvard) shut out of the Top 25 and ranked Yale one shot below Fordham.

Those out-of-conference games loom ever larger. If you're a Patriot League fan, you should be rooting hard for Lehigh over Villanova, Colgate over Furman, Fordham over Rhode Island and others this year.

Probably not too dissimilar to LFN forgetting Holy Cross! xsmiley_wix
The Crusaders open the season with potentially the toughest and "largest looming" OOC opponent in the PL this year, UMass.

Hardly a game that should be lumped in with "and others," that is THE game in which all PL fans should be rooting hard for Holy Cross for the future positive perceptions of the PL! xthumbsupx

And though they are Ivies (and you associate them with the PL in perception issues), they are the power of Ivy Football, so victories over Harvard and Yale wouldn't hurt perceptions of HC & the PL either.

[carney2]

The polls have given the Patriot League pretty much what they've earned and deserve.

[DFW HOYA]

The Crusaders open the season with potentially the toughest and "largest looming" OOC opponent in the PL this year, UMass.

As opposed to, say, Richmond on October 25?

And maybe that is the point--if Massachusetts is the "largest looming" game for the PL, (i.e., no I-A opponents or top 20 I-AA opponents outside the region), it's no surprise that the PL is being marginalized.

[89Hen]

Which conference plays the highest percentage of non-D-I games?
That's a good question. Perhaps the Big Sky thanks to a lack of other DI teams in the west? SacSt and PSU were the only two without a DII last year:

Montana - Ft Lewis
UNC - Chadron
EWU - Montana Western
MSU - Dixie State
NAU - Western New Mexico
Weber - Ft Lewis
ISU - Southern Oregon

Delaware was the ONLY CAA team to play a DII. :o

[JoltinJoe]

PL games since 1996 versus lower division opponents:

Bucknell: None
Colgate: None
Fordham (1): CW Post, 2003
Georgetown: None
Holy Cross: None
Lafayette (1): Millersville St., 1996
Lehigh: None

I forget the specifics, but that CW Post game was a last-minute filler for another team which cancelled unexpectedly.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Probably not too dissimilar to LFN forgetting Holy Cross! xsmiley_wix
The Crusaders open the season with potentially the toughest and "largest looming" OOC opponent in the PL this year, UMass.

..

And though they are Ivies (and you associate them with the PL in perception issues), they are the power of Ivy Football, so victories over Harvard and Yale wouldn't hurt perceptions of HC & the PL either.


As opposed to, say, Richmond on October 25?

And maybe that is the point--if Massachusetts is the "largest looming" game for the PL, (i.e., no I-A opponents or top 20 I-AA opponents outside the region), it's no surprise that the PL is being marginalized.

Point taken, CrusaderBob. And yes, I will be a huge HC fan against the Minutemen (and for that matter, I'll be a Hoya fan against Richmond, too). Wins there would give the PL that sort of win that the league, frankly, needs.

However, you've also stumbled on something else. I think folks who follow the PL are very well aware how good Harvard and Yale are, especially recently - but nationally, they're as big an unknown as C.W. Post. And that's the big problem. Wins over Furman, UMass, Villanova and even Rhode Island would display the strength of the Patriot League nationally, but a win over Yale or Harvard would (IMO) result in a huge shrug from most of FCS nation.

This is what I mean: when the PL ties itself so closely to the Ivies, and the Ivy leadership doesn't seem to care to develop their football brand nationally, the PL suffers immensely.

Most of us wouldn't take, for example, Delaware State in a game versus Yale anytime, anyplace, or anywhere - I don't care how improved they are. But since the Ivies don't choose to play in the playoffs, many people don't bother to look at Ivy League football. There's enough action to follow.

And that's why Yale #24 in the nation, when in reality they're much better than that. Same with Fordham at #23. And that's why Holy Cross and Colgate could make excellent cases for being ranked in the preseason, but don't show up. They don't see HC's win over Harvard last year as anything special, or Fordham's sweep of the Patriot League as anything special.

To an extent, this includes the NEC as well - Colgate's 13-11 gutty win over Albany is a game that they're "expected" to win even though the NEC is nothing like the NEC of seven years ago. But IMO where it really hurts is the Ivy League games.

[DetroitFlyer]

And, after your limitless woofing about it, I am certain that Fordham is looking forward to playing you again.

Bring em on...! According to a poll on the Dayton website, the fans are most looking forward to the Fordham game, by a wide margin. I hope that in the future we see many more PFL/PL matchups. I am hoping that Fordham brings a good number of fans to newly turfed Welcome Stadium.

[OL FU]

And that's why Yale #24 in the nation, when in reality they're much better than that. Same with Fordham at #23. And that's why Holy Cross and Colgate could make excellent cases for being ranked in the preseason, but don't show up. They don't see HC's win over Harvard last year as anything special, or Fordham's sweep of the Patriot League as anything special.

To an extent, this includes the NEC as well - Colgate's 13-11 gutty win over Albany is a game that they're "expected" to win even though the NEC is nothing like the NEC of seven years ago. But IMO where it really hurts is the Ivy League games.

I would re-phrase 89's question, what evidence is there that Yale is better than many teams in the top 25?

With all due respect to the improving NEC, this is why Colgate's victory was not looked at with that much enthusiam.


Sat, Sep 15 #19 Hofstra #19 Albany, N.Y. 6:00 p.m. 13 - 28 (L)
Time Warner Cable (TW3)
WOFX-980 AM
Sat, Sep 22 #2 Montana #2 at Missoula, Mont. 3:05 p.m. 14 - 35 (L)

Add to that a fairly strong win by Dayton. xnodx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Yale was 9-1 last year, their only loss coming to their bitter rival last year Harvard.

They return the best RB in their history (RB Mike McLeod) and their top defensive player (LB Bobby Abare). FWIW McLeod was hurt for the Harvard game.

They crushed Holy Cross (7-4) 38-17 which was their best win. They suffered largely because their league competition was not considered "strong" like Penn (4-6), Cornell (5-5) and Brown (5-5) - even though IMO these were all quality teams. Their other OOC wins were against Georgetown (1-10) and Lehigh (5-6), which didn't prove as much as it might have in other years.

In contrast, NDSU went 10-1, graduates their best defensive player and key cogs on offense, defense and special teams, and finds themselves the preseason #4 in the nation (in the AGS poll: Lindy's has them #2) with 2 first-place votes. Although they beat two FBS teams last year to their credit, they didn't beat a single playoff team last year either, and it included wins over 0-11 Southern Utah, 3-8 Mississippi Valley State and 0-11 Stephen F. Austin (all teams, IMO, who are significantly worse than the worst team in Ivy League last year).

I fail to see how two FBS wins (including a win over a pitiful Minnesota team) and "quality wins" over 6-5 WIU and 4-7 Illinois State make NDSU twenty points higher than Yale.

[OL FU]

Yale was 9-1 last year, their only loss coming to their bitter rival last year Harvard.

They return the best RB in their history (RB Mike McLeod) and their top defensive player (LB Bobby Abare). FWIW McLeod was hurt for the Harvard game.

They crushed Holy Cross (7-4) 38-17 which was their best win. They suffered largely because their league competition was not considered "strong" like Penn (4-6), Cornell (5-5) and Brown (5-5) - even though IMO these were all quality teams. Their other OOC wins were against Georgetown (1-10) and Lehigh (5-6), which didn't prove as much as it might have in other years.

In contrast, NDSU went 10-1, graduates their best defensive player and key cogs on offense, defense and special teams, and finds themselves the preseason #4 in the nation (in the AGS poll: Lindy's has them #2) with 2 first-place votes. Although they beat two FBS teams last year to their credit, they didn't beat a single playoff team last year either, and it included wins over 0-11 Southern Utah, 3-8 Mississippi Valley State and 0-11 Stephen F. Austin (all teams, IMO, who are significantly worse than the worst team in Ivy League last year).

I fail to see how two FBS wins (including a win over a pitiful Minnesota team) and "quality wins" over 6-5 WIU and 4-7 Illinois State make NDSU twenty points higher than Yale.


I would agree that NDSU is probably too high.

Yale had a very good year (and I think it emphasized the point that the PL needs to move beyond the IVY league) but they were beaten badly by their rival. They beat a good Holy Cross team and a mediocre Lehigh team and by a relatively close score a bottom of the PL Georgetown. Whether right or wrong, two FBS wins are always going to look better than those wins even against mediocre FBS teams. ( I have watched Furman even during their best years lose to mediocre I-A teams)

Unfortunately we do tend to look at trends (especially with the IVYs because they so rarely step out of the NE) and the year before they were thrashed by a USD team that couldn't even beat an average GWFC team. and that year Yale had a very good Ivy record.

The truth is as others have said comparisons are almost impossible since the IVYs and to a lesser extent the PL teams don't step out and play the Socons, CAAs, etc. Fortunately, this year's schedule seems to reflect a change for the PL. Playing that one game a year in the regular season is a big step to establishing a pecking order with the rest of FCS. First, you can play some home games as with FU and Colgate this year and second you are not necessarily playing the top seeds in the country which provides a better chance to win and to be compared.

Personally, with the recent results in the PL, OVC, MEAC it is understandable why they only get one team in the top 25 ( I know that the OVC placed two this year, but the MEAC didn't place one). Winning games against those perceived to be better is the only way it will change and I don't think you are going to have a lot of luck convincing people that the IVY league is a good gauge when most of their trips out of the NE end with them getting beaten badly. (See Princeton and Hampton)

[jimbo65]

Yale was 9-1 last year, their only loss coming to their bitter rival last year Harvard.

They return the best RB in their history (RB Mike McLeod) and their top defensive player (LB Bobby Abare). FWIW McLeod was hurt for the Harvard game.

.

I watched the Yale v. Harvard game on TV. Yale played one of the worst games I have seen in many years. They were dominated in every phase of the game. McCleod was injured,with a toe problem, but had 20 carries for only 50 yards. Yale was down 37-0 and scored near the end of the game. Fordham has Yale at the Bx this year on October 18 so I hope the same Yale team I saw v. Harvard shows up.

[bulldog10jw]

I watched the Yale v. Harvard game on TV. Yale played one of the worst games I have seen in many years. They were dominated in every phase of the game. McCleod was injured,with a toe problem, but had 20 carries for only 50 yards. Yale was down 37-0 and scored near the end of the game. [B]Fordham has Yale at the Bx this year on October 18 so I hope the same Yale team I saw v. Harvard shows up.[/[/

I don't.

[DFW HOYA]

Fordham has Yale at the Bx this year on October 18 so I hope the same Yale team I saw v. Harvard shows up.

I'm just hoping for a closely fought game for Yale's home opener before, say, 17,000 at the Yale Bowl.

[Pard4Life]

Not that it matters that it comes from me, but I think Fordham is going to go bonkers this year and has the potential to be a Colgate 2003 team. The Yale game will be a true test.

Disclosure: I had Fordham #15 in my AGS poll, Yale #23, Holy Cross #24.

[PLLB]

there is no way fordham is not in the top 25 to start the year and they also should be favored to win the league.

[OL FU]

there is no way fordham is not in the top 25 to start the year and they also should be favored to win the league.

Fordham is in the top 25 in AGS and I agree they should be. I just don't think anyone should get too upset that no other PL team is rated pre-season.

[Bison05]

In contrast, NDSU went 10-1, graduates their best defensive player and key cogs on offense, defense and special teams, and finds themselves the preseason #4 in the nation (in the AGS poll: Lindy's has them #2) with 2 first-place votes. Although they beat two FBS teams last year to their credit, they didn't beat a single playoff team last year either, and it included wins over 0-11 Southern Utah, 3-8 Mississippi Valley State and 0-11 Stephen F. Austin (all teams, IMO, who are significantly worse than the worst team in Ivy League last year).

I fail to see how two FBS wins (including a win over a pitiful Minnesota team) and "quality wins" over 6-5 WIU and 4-7 Illinois State make NDSU twenty points higher than Yale.


Im sorry, but you might want to explain what NDSU lost a little better. We lost our QB (who is being replaced by Minnesota's Mr. Football), other than that we graduated a few on the OL including an ALl-American; however, our offensive line is deeper than it has ever been.

On defense its arguable that we even lost our best defensive player. Most NDSU fans last year thought Ramon Humber LB was playing better than Joe Mays LB, plus our line backer squad is really deep and they still dominated last year when Joe Mays sat out with an injury. Both our DL and the backfield will be better this year.

On special teams we only lost Drago, who although being the best punter in FCS, could not even qualify for stats because we used him to infrequently. I think you need to reevaluate exactly who NDSU lost last year. We certainly deserve a top ten ranking, and I have no doubt that by the end of the year we will have proven that we are a top 5 team.

But your right, we are way overrated. xrolleyesx

[Syntax Error]

We lost our QB
other than that we graduated a few on the OL
On defense its arguable that we even lost our best defensive player
On special teams we only lost Drago
I think you need to reevaluate exactly who NDSU lost last year
we are way overrated.xnodx

[Bison05]

xnodx

Whatever, we'll see what the final poll says, hopefully determined by the NC game. xnodx xnodx xnodx

[Syntax Error]

Whatever, we'll see what the final poll says, hopefully determined by the NC game.xhomerx

[Seawolf97]

As opposed to, say, Richmond on October 25?

And maybe that is the point--if Massachusetts is the "largest looming" game for the PL, (i.e., no I-A opponents or top 20 I-AA opponents outside the region), it's no surprise that the PL is being marginalized.

Is the lack of not scheduling teams in power conferences by design? It seems games like that shouldn't be hard to schedule. I doubt CAA or Southern Conf. teams would say no . Is the lack of 1-A teams on anyones schedule because of the scholarship issue?

[DFW HOYA]

Is the lack of 1-A teams on anyones schedule because of the scholarship issue?

There is less than zero incentive for I-A teams to schedule PL teams, given that these games are not considered for bowl eligibility. That's why Navy would rather travel to Ball State and Northern Illinois than host Colgate or Fordham.

[Syntax Error]

What is I-A?

[Syntax Error]

There is less than zero incentive for I-A teams to schedule PL teams, given that these games are not considered for bowl eligibility. That's why Navy would rather travel to Ball State and Northern Illinois than host Colgate or Fordham.Equivalencies are the same as scholarships, no?

[Franks Tanks]

Equivalencies are the same as scholarships, no?

Tell that to whomever decides what a bowl eligible win constitutes.

[Syntax Error]

Ugh! Too tired to look it up though I have posted it before (NCAA bylaw). IIRC they are the same.

[Fordham]

Many good replies/answers to this that I won't take the time to echo. The only other thing I'd throw into the mix is that I don't think Fordham is a big enough brand yet in FCS. If the top pre-season team was Lehigh, Colgate or Lafayette I really think they'd be higher ranked than we are, as the record of success/consistency of those 3 has been much better than ours and so it's well deserved. I hope we go on enough of a run here to join that group in most FCS fans' minds over this season and the next few.

I also think that if our league's top ranked school had cracked the top 20 or better yet gotten close to top 15, it would have been easier for voters to rationalize having a 2nd PL team in there.

[DFW HOYA]

The only other thing I'd throw into the mix is that I don't think Fordham is a big enough brand yet in FCS.

Maybe if it was called "Northeast Fordham State" it'd get more votes... xlolx

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

They return the best RB in their history (RB Mike McLeod) and their top defensive player (LB Bobby Abare). FWIW McLeod was hurt for the Harvard game.


I don't follow Ivy League Football close enough to know, but the name Calvin Hill jumped into mind immediately after reading your statement. FWIW, significantly stronger Ivy competition in his day. What do the Eli's on the forum think?

[Go...gate]

Ugh! Too tired to look it up though I have posted it before (NCAA bylaw). IIRC they are the same.

Isn't it that the FCS equivalancy schools are not so-called "counters" which can be used by an FBS school on at least a one-every-four-year basis for bowl-eligibility? That is what Chet Gladchuk, the Navy AD, said on their website a year or so ago.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Is the lack of not scheduling teams in power conferences by design? It seems games like that shouldn't be hard to schedule. I doubt CAA or Southern Conf. teams would say no . Is the lack of 1-A teams on anyones schedule because of the scholarship issue?

I agree.

JMHO, but the Patriot teams would get more consideration if they proved their strength by playing fewer Ivy OOC games and performing well too of course. The Ivy teams tend not to play any "power" conference nor FBS teams for their OOC so any victories by PL teams over the Ivy don't register highly in the minds of folks from the CAA, SoCon, Gateway, Big Sky, Southland, etc.

[TheValleyRaider]

Isn't it that the FCS equivalancy schools are not so-called "counters" which can be used by an FBS school on at least a one-every-four-year basis for bowl-eligibility? That is what Chet Gladchuk, the Navy AD, said on their website a year or so ago.

I believe that changed when FBS adopted the 12-game rule a couple of years ago

What might matter is the level of equivalencies offered. There could be a minimum for recognition as a "bowl-eligible" opponent. At least, I think there was something like that back when the 1-in-4 rule existed

xreadx

[bulldog10jw]

I don't follow Ivy League Football close enough to know, but the name Calvin Hill jumped into mind immediately after reading your statement. FWIW, significantly stronger Ivy competition in his day. What do the Eli's on the forum think?


Mike McLeod is a great back. However, the best back in my lifetime (my first Yale game was in 1959) is current Buffalo Bills coach Dick Jauron. Others in the top 5 besides Calvin Hill are Rich Diana (later a Dolphin), John Pagliaro, and Chuck Mercein (played in the Ice Bowl for the Packers).

I also must add that Yale had a running back in the '30's named Clint Frank. All he did was win the Heisman Trophy.

[crusader11]

Robert Carr was another stellar RB for Yale that is probably worth mentioning. I am not sure how he would be compared to Hill or Jauron, since I never got to see them play, but I think Carr is pretty darn close to being as good as McLeod.

[jimbo65]

Mike McLeod is a great back. However, the best back in my lifetime (my first Yale game was in 1959) is current Buffalo Bills coach Dick Jauron. Others in the top 5 besides Calvin Hill are Rich Diana (later a Dolphin), John Pagliaro, and Chuck Mercein (played in the Ice Bowl for the Packers).

I also must add that Yale had a running back in the '30's named Clint Frank. All he did was win the Heisman Trophy.

Googled Jauron & came up with the following. Yale had several great rbs. Actually, I took a second look and this chart appears not to have last season so if McCleod got 700 yards last yr & can repeat this yr. he could be Y's all time rusher.
MOST RUSHING YARDS
CAREER
4,841 -- Clifton Dawson (Harvard, 2003-06)
4,715 -- Ed Marinaro (Cornell, 1969-71)
4,657 -- Chad Levitt (Cornell, 1993-96)
4,492 -- Nick Hartigan (Brown, 2002-05)
4,208 -- Keith Elias (Princeton, 1991-93)
3,430 -- Robert Carr (Yale, 2001-04)
3,330 -- Chris Menick (Harvard, 1996-99)
3,321 -- Johnathan Reese (Columbia, 1998-01)
3,266 -- Michael Malan (Brown, 1999-01)
3,181 -- Kris Ryan (Penn, 1998-01)
3,137 -- Bryan Keys (Penn, 1987-89)
3,109 -- Judd Garrett (Princeton, 1987-89)
3,088 -- Marquis Jessie (Brown, 1993-96)
3,074 -- Derrick Harmon (Cornell, 1981-83)
3,073 -- Eion Hu (Harvard, 1994-96)
3,015 -- Rashad Bartholomew (Yale, 1998-00)
2,947 -- Dick Jauron (Yale, 1970-72)
2,717 -- Terrance Stokes (Penn, 1992-94)
2,576 -- Rich Diana (Yale, 1979-81)
2,557 -- John McNiff (Cornell, 1989-91)
2,519 -- Sam Mathews (Penn, 2003-05)
2,479 -- Rich Comizio (Penn, 1984-86)
2,476 -- John Pagliaro (Yale, 1975-77)
2,449 -- Cameron Atkinson (Princeton, 1999-02)
2,362 -- Henry Bjorklund (Princeton, 1969-71)
2,252 -- Al Rosier (Dartmouth, 1989-91)
2,251 -- Jim Finn (Penn, 1995-98)
2,241 -- Walt Snickenberger (Princeton, 1971-74)
2,224 -- Jasen Scott (Penn, 1993-96)
2,181 -- Chris Flynn (Penn, 1985-87)
2,159 -- Jamie Potkul (Brown, 1983-85)
2,156 -- Gary Wood (Cornell, 1961-63)
2,155 -- Adolph Bellizeare (Penn, 1972-74)
2,130 -- Vic Gatto (Harvard, 1966-68)
2,083 -- Rudy Green (Yale, 1972-74)
2,053 -- Mike McLeod (Yale, 2005-06)
2,010 -- Paul Andrie (Yale, 1981-83)
2,006 -- Chris Kouri (Yale, 1989-91)
2,005 -- Marc Washington (Princeton, 1993-96)

[carney2]

Does anyone know what the rules and regulations are for the interlocked schedules between the Patriot and Ivy Leagues? Are there "minimums?" Is there something more than tradition and convenience at work here? Lafayette's coach, Frank Tavani, remarked two or three years ago that he was locked into the current schedule ("thru 2011," he said) by former AD, Eve Atkinson, and she has been gone since 2001.

[Franks Tanks]

Does anyone know what the rules and regulations are for the interlocked schedules between the Patriot and Ivy Leagues? Are there "minimums?" Is there something more than tradition and convenience at work here? Lafayette's coach, Frank Tavani, remarked two or three years ago that he was locked into the current schedule ("thru 2011," he said) by former AD, Eve Atkinson, and she has been gone since 2001.

No I think that all it is at this point. In the early days of the PL I believe their were some sort of agreements to play the Ivies X amount of times, but that has ceased I believe. It also seems more pronounced for us as we as we seem to play 4 Ivies almost every year, while some of our PL bretheren only do 2 or 3 many years

[Go...gate]

No I think that all it is at this point. In the early days of the PL I believe their were some sort of agreements to play the Ivies X amount of times, but that has ceased I believe. It also seems more pronounced for us as we as we seem to play 4 Ivies almost every year, while some of our PL bretheren only do 2 or 3 many years

There was an interlocking schedule agreement which expired earlier this decade. Most Ivies and Patriots play each other OOC, which at least some of us like a great deal. I know I do. It certainly has not hampered Colgate, which is, I believe, the Ivies' most-played non-conference opponent. through the years.

[89Hen]

Does anyone know what the rules and regulations are for the interlocked schedules between the Patriot and Ivy Leagues? Are there "minimums?" Is there something more than tradition and convenience at work here?

No I think that all it is at this point. In the early days of the PL I believe their were some sort of agreements to play the Ivies X amount of times, but that has ceased I believe.
I wish I still had the old e-mails from an official in the PL office. I directly asked him that question a couple years back and he confirmed that there are no rules for scheduling between the two and it was done out of tradition, convenience and similar philosophies. xnodx

[FargoBison]

Yale was 9-1 last year, their only loss coming to their bitter rival last year Harvard.

They return the best RB in their history (RB Mike McLeod) and their top defensive player (LB Bobby Abare). FWIW McLeod was hurt for the Harvard game.

They crushed Holy Cross (7-4) 38-17 which was their best win. They suffered largely because their league competition was not considered "strong" like Penn (4-6), Cornell (5-5) and Brown (5-5) - even though IMO these were all quality teams. Their other OOC wins were against Georgetown (1-10) and Lehigh (5-6), which didn't prove as much as it might have in other years.

In contrast, NDSU went 10-1, graduates their best defensive player and key cogs on offense, defense and special teams, and finds themselves the preseason #4 in the nation (in the AGS poll: Lindy's has them #2) with 2 first-place votes. Although they beat two FBS teams last year to their credit, they didn't beat a single playoff team last year either, and it included wins over 0-11 Southern Utah, 3-8 Mississippi Valley State and 0-11 Stephen F. Austin (all teams, IMO, who are significantly worse than the worst team in Ivy League last year).

I fail to see how two FBS wins (including a win over a pitiful Minnesota team) and "quality wins" over 6-5 WIU and 4-7 Illinois State make NDSU twenty points higher than Yale.

On offense NDSU returns starters at...

FB*
RB
TE*
WR*
WR
OT*
OG
C*

Defense

DE*
DT
DT
OLB*
OLB*
CB
FS*
SS

* denotes player that will be a third or fourth year starter.

Yeah, we are way overated. We lost one non-lineman on offense and the only loss at a skill position was at back-up receiver. We do have a new QB but he is surrounded by experience and this will be his 4th season at NDSU, so he is more then ready to start.

BTW....NDSU will start 14 seniors this year and both Lardinois(DE) or Humber(OLB) could have been our top player on defense last year.

[Fordham]

I'd love to see NDSU play Dayton some day so we could all try to hijack the game thread.

xrotatehx

[colorless raider]

Yale was 9-1 last year, their only loss coming to their bitter rival last year Harvard.

They return the best RB in their history (RB Mike McLeod) and their top defensive player (LB Bobby Abare). FWIW McLeod was hurt for the Harvard game.

They crushed Holy Cross (7-4) 38-17 which was their best win. They suffered largely because their league competition was not considered "strong" like Penn (4-6), Cornell (5-5) and Brown (5-5) - even though IMO these were all quality teams. Their other OOC wins were against Georgetown (1-10) and Lehigh (5-6), which didn't prove as much as it might have in other years.

In contrast, NDSU went 10-1, graduates their best defensive player and key cogs on offense, defense and special teams, and finds themselves the preseason #4 in the nation (in the AGS poll: Lindy's has them #2) with 2 first-place votes. Although they beat two FBS teams last year to their credit, they didn't beat a single playoff team last year either, and it included wins over 0-11 Southern Utah, 3-8 Mississippi Valley State and 0-11 Stephen F. Austin (all teams, IMO, who are significantly worse than the worst team in Ivy League last year).

I fail to see how two FBS wins (including a win over a pitiful Minnesota team) and "quality wins" over 6-5 WIU and 4-7 Illinois State make NDSU twenty points higher than Yale.

The truth of the matter is that these polls are worthless. They know nothing. Even the SID polls in the pre-season are NOT a good predictor. We fans know more than they do. End of sermon.

[DetroitFlyer]

I'd love to see NDSU play Dayton some day so we could all try to hijack the game thread.

xrotatehx


I sure would like to see that game.... I would even travel out to NDSU to see that game!xnodx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

On offense NDSU returns starters at...

FB*
RB
TE*
WR*
WR
OT*
OG
C*

Defense

DE*
DT
DT
OLB*
OLB*
CB
FS*
SS

* denotes player that will be a third or fourth year starter.

Yeah, we are way overated. We lost one non-lineman on offense and the only loss at a skill position was at back-up receiver. We do have a new QB but he is surrounded by experience and this will be his 4th season at NDSU, so he is more then ready to start.

BTW....NDSU will start 14 seniors this year and both Lardinois(DE) or Humber(OLB) could have been our top player on defense last year.

I love this revisionist history that somehow Joe Mays wasn't your best defensive player last year.

Tackles: 90 (1st)
TFL: 9 (2nd)
FF: 1 (t-2nd)
Pass Breakups: 6 (2nd)

And he was a team captain. Oh, SURE, he was just a role player. xrolleyesx

Look, NDSU is a good team. They gave good skill returning on offense and defense. And it will be interesting to find out how they do against the better teams in the Gateway. But as good as NDSU is, their offense wasn't nearly as centered around Roehl as McLeod was for Yale last year. McLeod is a special RB.

Walker almost single-handedly lost - and then won - the Cal Poly game for you last year. Losing Walker - and especially Mays - are big voids for your team. Yale's voids aren't nearly so great.

I'm saying Yale and NDSU should be close together, somewhere in the lower reaches of the Top 10.

[LBPop]

As a four year observer of the PL, I suspect that there are a few reasons that the league is not taken as seriously as we might like. In no particular order they would be:

Non Scholarship (whatever that means): I believe that there is a general perception (right or wrong) that you can't get enough talent to truly compete without offering scholarships.

Recent playoff performance: Yes, I heard good reports about Fordham vs. UMass last year. But paraphrasing Leo D., "Show me a loser that played a good game and I will show you a loser". To an outside observer as each year passes the Colgate run to the title game seems more and more like an aberration.

Some real weakness at the bottom: No more excuses for Georgetown and Bucknell. Some of their OOC losses in recent years have been embarrassing both for them and for the league. Sadly the Hoyas have damaged the league's reputation with some of these losses and some of the total blow-outs in league games. And ironically, Bucknell has done themselves no favor by losing to the Hoyas twice in three years (although that's kind of a cyclical argument xchinscratchx ).

The "fix" to this is the same "fix" that Georgetown has needed for years. And it's the obvious answer. Quoting that football sage, Al Davis, "Just win." Win some big OOC games; win a playoff game; just win. Sure, it's not easy and everyone is trying (even the Hoyas), but winning is all that people want to see. Sure, I know the hurdles that the PL must "jump"--academic requirements; no scholarships; etc. But if the members of the PL cannot overcome those problems, then maybe the league should not be seen as a contender.

Heck, playoff contention has never been a concern of mine since LBKid entered Georgetown--I was just hoping for a little success and a little respect (just like the PL). Oh yeah, I know, I know, Georgetown is an excellent academic institution. Sure...and that blind date of yours has a great personality, she can really cook, and all the girls love her. But all we care about on a blind date is what she looks like (keeping it clean, guys) and all we care about as football fans are W's. Just like that blind date, the league has a wonderful academic reputation, but after the ball is kicked off it's not a written exam--it's a serious lab exercise and the PL needs to step it up. I sure hope they can, because I have become a real fan. xnodx

[OL FU]

As a four year observer of the PL, I suspect that there are a few reasons that the league is not taken as seriously as we might like. In no particular order they would be:

Non Scholarship (whatever that means): I believe that there is a general perception (right or wrong) that you can't get enough talent to truly compete without offering scholarships.

Recent playoff performance: Yes, I heard good reports about Fordham vs. UMass last year. But paraphrasing Leo D., "Show me a loser that played a good game and I will show you a loser". To an outside observer as each year passes the Colgate run to the title game seems more and more like an aberration.

Some real weakness at the bottom: No more excuses for Georgetown and Bucknell. Some of their OOC losses in recent years have been embarrassing both for them and for the league. Sadly the Hoyas have damaged the league's reputation with some of these losses and some of the total blow-outs in league games. And ironically, Bucknell has done themselves no favor by losing to the Hoyas twice in three years (although that's kind of a cyclical argument xchinscratchx ).

The "fix" to this is the same "fix" that Georgetown has needed for years. And it's the obvious answer. Quoting that football sage, Al Davis, "Just win." Win some big OOC games; win a playoff game; just win. Sure, it's not easy and everyone is trying (even the Hoyas), but winning is all that people want to see. Sure, I know the hurdles that the PL must "jump"--academic requirements; no scholarships; etc. But if the members of the PL cannot overcome those problems, then maybe the league should not be seen as a contender.

Heck, playoff contention has never been a concern of mine since LBKid entered Georgetown--I was just hoping for a little success and a little respect (just like the PL). Oh yeah, I know, I know, Georgetown is an excellent academic institution. Sure...and that blind date of yours has a great personality, she can really cook, and all the girls love her. But all we care about on a blind date is what she looks like (keeping it clean, guys) and all we care about as football fans are W's. Just like that blind date, the league has a wonderful academic reputation, but after the ball is kicked off it's not a written exam--it's a serious lab exercise and the PL needs to step it up. I sure hope they can, because I have become a real fan. xnodx

That is a very good summary and the correct conclusion.

It doesn't matter how good you are unless you have the wins to back it upxnodx

[Franks Tanks]

That is a very good summary and the correct conclusion.

It doesn't matter how good you are unless you have the wins to back it upxnodx

I agree as well but the disturbing and perplexing part is that the league had tremendous upward momentum in the late 90's early 00's that culminated in the Colgate 2003 run. Lehigh had some great teams in that era that were often ranked in the top 10 and won some playoff games. We all know about Colgate and Fordham beat Northeastern in 2002 in the !st round. Therefore I feel its not a case of whether or not it can be done (as it somewhat has) but moreso what the hell happened since 2003??

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I agree as well but the disturbing and perplexing part is that the league had tremendous upward momentum in the late 90's early 00's that culminated in the Colgate 2003 run. Lehigh had some great teams in that era that were often ranked in the top 10 and won some playoff games. We all know about Colgate and Fordham beat Northeastern in 2002 in the !st round. Therefore I feel its not a case of whether or not it can be done (as it somewhat has) but moreso what the hell happened since 2003??

AI calculations squeezed out the types of athletes that everyone across the board were able to recruit. Those 2003 athletes were recruited in 1998 and 1999 - an entirely different world, AI-wise, for the League.

We even used to be able to recruit locally for talent. No longer. Now, it's go national or die.

There are other factors that cannot be minimized as well: the Ivy League AI going to a banding system, the loosening of the athletic purse strings by H-Y-Pr, the emergence of the NEC, the increase in scholarship money.

IMO, the AI is the biggest culprit.

[OL FU]

I agree as well but the disturbing and perplexing part is that the league had tremendous upward momentum in the late 90's early 00's that culminated in the Colgate 2003 run. Lehigh had some great teams in that era that were often ranked in the top 10 and won some playoff games. We all know about Colgate and Fordham beat Northeastern in 2002 in the !st round. Therefore I feel its not a case of whether or not it can be done (as it somewhat has) but moreso what the hell happened since 2003??

I would agree. It looks like this year could be a good year to start. I agree with many before that Fordham should be better than last year, (don't lose to Bucknell). Holy Cross and Colgate looking much better too.


Now the real question is what happend to L&L:p xsmiley_wix

[Seawolf97]

As a four year observer of the PL, I suspect that there are a few reasons that the league is not taken as seriously as we might like. In no particular order they would be:

Non Scholarship (whatever that means): I believe that there is a general perception (right or wrong) that you can't get enough talent to truly compete without offering scholarships.

Recent playoff performance: Yes, I heard good reports about Fordham vs. UMass last year. But paraphrasing Leo D., "Show me a loser that played a good game and I will show you a loser". To an outside observer as each year passes the Colgate run to the title game seems more and more like an aberration.

Some real weakness at the bottom: No more excuses for Georgetown and Bucknell. Some of their OOC losses in recent years have been embarrassing both for them and for the league. Sadly the Hoyas have damaged the league's reputation with some of these losses and some of the total blow-outs in league games. And ironically, Bucknell has done themselves no favor by losing to the Hoyas twice in three years (although that's kind of a cyclical argument xchinscratchx ).

The "fix" to this is the same "fix" that Georgetown has needed for years. And it's the obvious answer. Quoting that football sage, Al Davis, "Just win." Win some big OOC games; win a playoff game; just win. Sure, it's not easy and everyone is trying (even the Hoyas), but winning is all that people want to see. Sure, I know the hurdles that the PL must "jump"--academic requirements; no scholarships; etc. But if the members of the PL cannot overcome those problems, then maybe the league should not be seen as a contender.

Heck, playoff contention has never been a concern of mine since LBKid entered Georgetown--I was just hoping for a little success and a little respect (just like the PL). Oh yeah, I know, I know, Georgetown is an excellent academic institution. Sure...and that blind date of yours has a great personality, she can really cook, and all the girls love her. But all we care about on a blind date is what she looks like (keeping it clean, guys) and all we care about as football fans are W's. Just like that blind date, the league has a wonderful academic reputation, but after the ball is kicked off it's not a written exam--it's a serious lab exercise and the PL needs to step it up. I sure hope they can, because I have become a real fan. xnodx

Think you hit the nail on the head. Good summaryxpeacex

[colorless raider]

I agree as well but the disturbing and perplexing part is that the league had tremendous upward momentum in the late 90's early 00's that culminated in the Colgate 2003 run. Lehigh had some great teams in that era that were often ranked in the top 10 and won some playoff games. We all know about Colgate and Fordham beat Northeastern in 2002 in the !st round. Therefore I feel its not a case of whether or not it can be done (as it somewhat has) but moreso what the hell happened since 2003??

It's simple, a fast rising AI has hurt us all.

[Franks Tanks]

It's simple, a fast rising AI has hurt us all.

I understand and agree fundamentally. But also consider that AI doesnt go up in a vacuum meaning that theoretically the AI of the FB we are recruiting should be going up as well. For example student x today is ranked top 10% in his class but has like a 1340 SAT and a 3.9. 10 years ago a similar student who was ranked in the same slot at the same high school probably had a 3.7 and a 1270 or something. Point is I believe their is grade inflation going on at the HS level as well, therefore the grades of our recruits shoud also be comparably inflated.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Mike McLeod is a great back. However, the best back in my lifetime (my first Yale game was in 1959) is current Buffalo Bills coach Dick Jauron. Others in the top 5 besides Calvin Hill are Rich Diana (later a Dolphin), John Pagliaro, and Chuck Mercein (played in the Ice Bowl for the Packers).

I also must add that Yale had a running back in the '30's named Clint Frank. All he did was win the Heisman Trophy.

That's quite a top six 10jw!!!!!! Unless McLeod completely obliterates the Yale rushing record, I think he won't be considered the best Eli RB by "old timers" because of this "top six" and the higher level played by Yale back in the day of Hill, Jauron and Mercein. Is that the view of most of the long time Yale fans?

And I've got to give myself a couple xoopsx xoopsx xoopsx xoopsx :o because I should have remembered Dick Jauron because I saw him play once in HS when Swampscott (MA) played Newburyport (MA).

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

There was an interlocking schedule agreement which expired earlier this decade. Most Ivies and Patriots play each other OOC, which at least some of us like a great deal. I know I do. It certainly has not hampered Colgate, which is, I believe, the Ivies' most-played non-conference opponent. through the years.

It is a bit of a dilemma. Everyone wants their school to play like minded institutions within a geographic proximity. National Championship playoffs throw another factor into the mix. Obviously, with the AQ the Patriot will be a participant. But as long as the Ivy doesn't schedule OOC games with "power" conferences nor FBS teams, it is difficult to accurately gauge Patriot teams on the national scale for at large bids unless the PL teams schedule some games with other AQ leagues.

Right or wrong, a lot of opinions get based on just a few games like UNH-Dartmouth, Rhode Island-Brown, Rhode Island-Fordham, Penn-Villanova, Lehigh-Villanova, Colgate-UMass/Stony Brook, Holy Cross-UMass, etc. And many times when the discussion for the last couple of at large berths goes on, the committee must be looking for a game that distinguishes one team over another. When you've only scheduled one game against a "power" conference, a lot of eggs are in the basket of that one game. I just think that having two OOC games against other FCS leagues would help any Patriot team's resume come committee time.

[ngineer]

I agree that the PL has to cut down the number of Ivy games to about 2 (and no more than 3) each year and replace with teams from the CAA, SoCon, and Gateway if possible. Scheduling, though is easier said than done in conjunction with costs of travel. Remember the Ivies are also geographically similar and close by which makes scheduling easier and cheaper. But in order to get 'respect' come bubble time with the Committee, the strength of competition will be a significant factor..as it should.

[Seawolf97]

Fordham could schedule both Stonybrook and Hofstra both full scholarship programs and travel is only an hour. Add to that a good fan base to go with each game -could be a nice rivalry.

[Fordham]

Fordham could schedule both Stonybrook and Hofstra both full scholarship programs and travel is only an hour. Add to that a good fan base to go with each game -could be a nice rivalry.

xthumbsupx agree completely. i'd also love to see 'nova added in there with some degree of regularity.

[DFW HOYA]

I agree that the PL has to cut down the number of Ivy games to about 2 (and no more than 3) each year and replace with teams from the CAA, SoCon, and Gateway if possible.

Don't look for that. The 2009 schedules for Lehigh and Colgate contain three Ivies, four at Holy Cross, and an astounding five on the slate at Lafayette (Columbia, Penn, H, Y, and P).

And at Georgetown? One. If it wasn't for Towson leaving, one wonders if Georgetown would have got any Ivies to this point.

[Fordham]

Don't look for that. The 2009 schedules for Lehigh and Colgate contain three Ivies, four at Holy Cross, and an astounding five on the slate at Lafayette (Columbia, Penn, H, Y, and P).

And at Georgetown? One. If it wasn't for Towson leaving, one wonders if Georgetown would have got any Ivies to this point.

We're in a similar boat, DFW. The most common refrain is that our poor facilities as well as the fact that they play in NYC every other year when playing league foe Columbia are why they won't play us.

I really can't figure out why you guys wouldn't be one of their top choices, though, although the facilities argument clearly stands against you guys as well. Nonetheless, the opportunity to play in DC, where so many of every Ivy league schools' alumni are as well as the academic prestige of G-town seems like it should be a slam dunk to me.

[Go...gate]

Fordham could schedule both Stonybrook and Hofstra both full scholarship programs and travel is only an hour. Add to that a good fan base to go with each game -could be a nice rivalry.

Hofstra has not scheduled the PL much since the PL (stupidly, IMO) turned it down for membership in the early 1990's. There may still be some hard feelings, understandably.

[ngineer]

Hofstra has not scheduled the PL much since the PL (stupidly, IMO) turned it down for membership in the early 1990's. There may still be some hard feelings, understandably.

Yes, we played years before I-AA..Since then, our only games were the playoffs in 1999 and 2001. But now that Stony Brook and Albany are going with scholarships, that opens some more opportunities.
I don't know why the facilities issue plays as an excuse for not traveling to G'town or Fordham..The Ivies do not travel well at all. When we play Princeton at Goodman (little more than an hour trip) they rarely have more than 1,000 fans on the visitors side. Penn brings a few more, but regardless both venues for G'town and Fordham are sufficient for their attendance.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Yes, we played years before I-AA..Since then, our only games were the playoffs in 1999 and 2001. But now that Stony Brook and Albany are going with scholarships, that opens some more opportunities.
I don't know why the facilities issue plays as an excuse for not traveling to G'town or Fordham..The Ivies do not travel well at all. When we play Princeton at Goodman (little more than an hour trip) they rarely have more than 1,000 fans on the visitors side. Penn brings a few more, but regardless both venues for G'town and Fordham are sufficient for their attendance.

When you add add the other factors - plus this huge one that ng has accurately pointed out - doesn't the PL have to step back and re-evaluate what the Ivy games really buy the league?

[DFW HOYA]

When you add add the other factors - plus this huge one that ng has accurately pointed out - doesn't the PL have to step back and re-evaluate what the Ivy games really buy the league?

It buys these schools a seat at the Ivy table, at least for a weekend. And the PL leadership is fine with that. Meanwhile, NEC schools like Monmouth have already lined up Villanova on its future schedules.

I would not be surprised if the Ivy started pushing for unbalanced schedules going forward, along the lines of Yale getting four of the next five games with Georgetown in New Haven. If Princeton wants to play three of four at home instead of traveling to Easton or Lewisburg, do we really see those schools turning Old Nassau down?

[Hoyadestroya85]

The patriot league definitely doesn't get the respect it deserves in any sport

[TheValleyRaider]

I would not be surprised if the Ivy started pushing for unbalanced schedules going forward, along the lines of Yale getting four of the next five games with Georgetown in New Haven. If Princeton wants to play three of four at home instead of traveling to Easton or Lewisburg, do we really see those schools turning Old Nassau down?

Some already do. Colgate plays 3 of 4 years at Cornell, but as of right now I can't believe we'd just drop them from the schedule. They're our most-played opponent, the local rivalry is good, and really, we've been beating them pretty regularly in Ithaca anyway (well, until recently xmadx)

[carney2]

Don't look for that. The 2009 schedules for Lehigh and Colgate contain three Ivies, four at Holy Cross, and an astounding five on the slate at Lafayette (Columbia, Penn, H, Y, and P).

The last time I saw it there were "only" four (Columbia, Penn, Harvard and Yale). Even this is in doubt because a press release from Liberty says that they are scheduled to finish their home and home with Lafayette in 2009. Unless 2009 is one of those 12 game years like we had back in the 90s, something has to give.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Some already do. Colgate plays 3 of 4 years at Cornell, but as of right now I can't believe we'd just drop them from the schedule. They're our most-played opponent, the local rivalry is good, and really, we've been beating them pretty regularly in Ithaca anyway (well, until recently xmadx)

This is horrifying.

[carney2]

It buys these schools a seat at the Ivy table, at least for a weekend. And the PL leadership is fine with that. Meanwhile, NEC schools like Monmouth have already lined up Villanova on its future schedules.


Well stated. There was so much excitement about this "arrangement" on the PL side when it started that you had to step back in wonder and say, "Get hold of yourselves. It's not like they're letting you use the library." Time to end this worship of academic elitism and move on. You do not become "Ivy League" by spending 3 hours or so with a few of them once a year on Saturday afternoons.

If you've got a "traditional" Ivy rival, stick with it, but 3, 4, 5 - ugh! Here are some traditionals (and I'm stretching that term a little since I see only one real traditional rivalry here in that people really care about it (Colgate-Cornell) and one more with a long, if not storied, history). Help me out.

Bucknell and (I have no idea)
Colgate and Cornell
Fordham and Columbia If this isn't obvious,...
Georgetown and (probably no one)
Holy Cross and Harvard or Brown Pick one.
Lafayette and Penn They have played 84 times.
Lehigh and (again, no idea)

[ngineer]

Well stated. There was so much excitement about this "arrangement" on the PL side when it started that you had to step back in wonder and say, "Get hold of yourselves. It's not like they're letting you use the library." Time to end this worship of academic elitism and move on. You do not become "Ivy League" by spending 3 hours or so with a few of them once a year on Saturday afternoons.

If you've got a "traditional" Ivy rival, stick with it, but 3, 4, 5 - ugh! Here are some traditionals (and I'm stretching that term a little since I see only one real traditional rivalry here in that people really care about it (Colgate-Cornell) and one more with a long, if not storied, history). Help me out.

Bucknell and (I have no idea)
Colgate and Cornell
Fordham and Columbia If this isn't obvious,...
Georgetown and (probably no one)
Holy Cross and Harvard or Brown Pick one.
Lafayette and Penn They have played 84 times.
Lehigh and (again, no idea)

Agreed the need to downplay the Ivies and get better regional/national competition from a national perspective By that, I think the top 4/5 of the Ivies do give very good competition and can hold their own in any FCS competition (Harvard, Yale, Penn, and usually Princeton). Columbia, Brown, Dartmouth have been weak sisters for a long time. Cornell changes every 10 years or so.

Lehigh, due to proximity has had a good series with Princeton and a more ferocious one with Penn...Penn dropped us several years ago. That is one Ivy game that Lehigh people get 'up' for...plus there are a good number of Penn alums in the area that add interest.

[DFW HOYA]

I think the top 4/5 of the Ivies do give very good competition and can hold their own in any FCS competition (Harvard, Yale, Penn, and usually Princeton). Columbia, Brown, Dartmouth have been weak sisters for a long time. Cornell changes every 10 years or so.


Both the Ivy and the PL would like to think that, but in 2007 this was not the case.

The Ancient Eight played just six games outside its league and the PL. Its two wins came against MAAC teams (Duquesne, Marist), with Brown giving up 49 to URI, Dartmouth losing 52-31 to UNH, Princeton losing 48-27 to Hampton, and Penn falling to Villanova 34-14.

And that's part of the gilded cage both conferences have created. If Harvard was routed by McNeese, if Yale is getting stomped on by an App State, or if Montana is dropping half a hundred on Princeton, suddenly the Ivy doesn't look so good. But a fat schedule of PL teams provides the means for H-Y-P to keep the alumni happy and sell the idea that Ivy football is just as good as days of yore.

[crusader11]

Columbia, Brown, Dartmouth have been weak sisters for a long time. Cornell changes every 10 years or so.



Brown won the league a few years ago.

[Go...gate]

Some already do. Colgate plays 3 of 4 years at Cornell, but as of right now I can't believe we'd just drop them from the schedule. They're our most-played opponent, the local rivalry is good, and really, we've been beating them pretty regularly in Ithaca anyway (well, until recently xmadx)

I'm one of the minority on this issue - I like the Ivy games because many of the Ivy schools are among our most-played opponents dating back many, many years.

[Go...gate]

This is horrifying.

It's gone on for 50-60 years now. Back in the day, it was a great road trip!

[ngineer]

I'm one of the minority on this issue - I like the Ivy games because many of the Ivy schools are among our most-played opponents dating back many, many years.

I agree from a traditionalist point of view, the Ivies are our natural competitors..Most of us have series going back to the late 1800's. I also enjoy going to Harvard, Yale, Cornell, etc. My only point is that IF if it is our (PL) intent to build a case for getting more than one team in the playoffs and get more respect from the rest of the country, then we have to change our scheduling philosophy as a league. Lehigh has tried to 'mix it up' with a smattering of teams from elsewhere over the years (Wofford, Buffalo, UConn, Villanova, Delaware), but we need to plays schools from these leagues more frequently than once a year if we're going to make a stronger case to the rest of FCS.

[TheValleyRaider]

I'm one of the minority on this issue - I like the Ivy games because many of the Ivy schools are among our most-played opponents dating back many, many years.

I don't particularly mind the Ivy games either. If I'm writing up Colgate's schedule, Cornell is the first call I make after the PL tells us when those games are. After them, I'd maybe take 1 or 2 more. Some combination of Dartmouth/Princeton/Yale might be nice, given we've played them more often than the others (for some reason). But I'd also like some expansion with the schedule. With only 6 League games, we have room for some nice OOC opponents along with a handful of Ivy games.

I do wish SUNY-Ithaca would grow a pair and play us in Hamilton a bit more often though...

[Go...gate]

I agree from a traditionalist point of view, the Ivies are our natural competitors..Most of us have series going back to the late 1800's. I also enjoy going to Harvard, Yale, Cornell, etc. My only point is that IF if it is our (PL) intent to build a case for getting more than one team in the playoffs and get more respect from the rest of the country, then we have to change our scheduling philosophy as a league. Lehigh has tried to 'mix it up' with a smattering of teams from elsewhere over the years (Wofford, Buffalo, UConn, Villanova, Delaware), but we need to plays schools from these leagues more frequently than once a year if we're going to make a stronger case to the rest of FCS.

Let's face it - if and when the PL goes to football scholarships, things are going to change because the Ivy will feel the competitive balance has been altered. Who they will play at that point is anybod's guess, but I could see them playing more games against the Pioneer and abandoning non-traditional rivalry games with Patriot schools. I believe you will then see some Ivies playing 1-2 Patriots a year interspersed (rarely) with a CAA, SoCon or MEAC in the case of Brown, Dartmouth, Penn, Harvard and Princeton, with the remainder of the Ivy OOC games coming against Pioneer teams such as Davidson, Butler, Marist, San Diego and Dayton.

Just my xtwocentsx

[bison137]

Here are some traditionals (and I'm stretching that term a little since I see only one real traditional rivalry here in that people really care about it (Colgate-Cornell) and one more with a long, if not storied, history). Help me out.

Bucknell and (I have no idea)
Colgate and Cornell
Fordham and Columbia If this isn't obvious,...
Georgetown and (probably no one)
Holy Cross and Harvard or Brown Pick one.
Lafayette and Penn They have played 84 times.
Lehigh and (again, no idea)


Bucknell does not have a traditional rival equivalent to Colgate-Cornell or Lafayette-Penn. However, Bu has played Cornell frequently over the years, with the first game taking place in 1888. They played throughout the 80's into the early 90's when the Ivy-Patriot rotational play started. They have played each other every year for the past decade.

With the two being reasonably close geographically, BU and Cornell have rivalries in many sports.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I don't particularly mind the Ivy games either. If I'm writing up Colgate's schedule, Cornell is the first call I make after the PL tells us when those games are. After them, I'd maybe take 1 or 2 more. Some combination of Dartmouth/Princeton/Yale might be nice, given we've played them more often than the others (for some reason). But I'd also like some expansion with the schedule. With only 6 League games, we have room for some nice OOC opponents along with a handful of Ivy games.

I do wish SUNY-Ithaca would grow a pair and play us in Hamilton a bit more often though...

I know Cornell is a good rivalry, but why on earth would Colgate ink a 3-for-1 deal to preserve it? It doesn't take much cohones to propose a 3-for-1 deal - that takes something else. Chutzpah. Especially since Cornell has one exactly win in the Dick Biddle era.

This illustrates what I mean. Are we as a league so desperate for Ivy games that we're willing to schedule badly to preserve it? Take away the rivalry/road trip aspect of it. What does it buy Colgate? If they win, it means nothing to the general FCS community. If they lose - like they did last year - it takes an extra bid away from the conference. They would have been better off playing Stony Brook, win or lose - and they might have even got a 2-for-1 deal in the bargain.

I refuse to believe that the schools of our league has this little bargaining power. If that's the case, why are we a league at all?

[TheValleyRaider]

I know Cornell is a good rivalry, but why on earth would Colgate ink a 3-for-1 deal to preserve it? It doesn't take much cohones to propose a 3-for-1 deal - that takes something else. Chutzpah. Especially since Cornell has one exactly win in the Dick Biddle era.

This illustrates what I mean. Are we as a league so desperate for Ivy games that we're willing to schedule badly to preserve it? Take away the rivalry/road trip aspect of it. What does it buy Colgate? If they win, it means nothing to the general FCS community. If they lose - like they did last year - it takes an extra bid away from the conference. They would have been better off playing Stony Brook, win or lose - and they might have even got a 2-for-1 deal in the bargain.

I refuse to believe that the schools of our league has this little bargaining power. If that's the case, why are we a league at all?

Cornell is actually off our Future Schedules starting in 2011 (after they come to visit in 2010), but it could just be because we're negotiating

Really, what do we gain from getting them to visit us? The money from the gate? We can't be making that much anyway. Home-field advantage? The advantage we get from Hamilton is being so darn far away from everything, which is pretty much what you get when you travel to Ithaca. Besides, as we've proven, we can win games there.

Colgate doesn't have a long tradition of playing lots of home games. Go...gate will regale you of the days when we regularly had 2 each season (not so much "Red Raiders" as "Road Raiders" in those days). Our new AD (who isn't really even that new anymore) is really pushing our schedule as is with 6 home games.

I see what you're saying, and I tend to agree that we ought to be getting more home games in these deals. But, getting home games against the Ivies doesn't get us very much, as a League. They willl still be games that carry less weight nationally than games against other conferences do. We sign deals with them for reasons that go beyond playoff positioning. History does matter at our schools, and certainly at Colgate, given the long history we have with the Ivies.

[OL FU]

Both the Ivy and the PL would like to think that, but in 2007 this was not the case.

The Ancient Eight played just six games outside its league and the PL. Its two wins came against MAAC teams (Duquesne, Marist), with Brown giving up 49 to URI, Dartmouth losing 52-31 to UNH, Princeton losing 48-27 to Hampton, and Penn falling to Villanova 34-14.

And that's part of the gilded cage both conferences have created. If Harvard was routed by McNeese, if Yale is getting stomped on by an App State, or if Montana is dropping half a hundred on Princeton, suddenly the Ivy doesn't look so good. But a fat schedule of PL teams provides the means for H-Y-P to keep the alumni happy and sell the idea that Ivy football is just as good as days of yore.

Again, right on the moneyxthumbsupx

[OL FU]

Thanks postersxthumbsupx

This has been an interesting read.

Three conclusions (from my perspective).

1. The PL needs to keep the historic ties to the IVY league.
2. While keeping number 1 and as long as the IVY's are content to stay out of the playoffs, the PL teams should schedule at least one game a year with the CAA, SoCon, Gateway, etc.
3. Whether or not the PL or IVYs should have more respect in the polls can be debated all day, but until the regular season schedules change and/or the PL wins some games in the playoffs, it is understandable why pollsters (whether posters or sports writers) are hesitant to give the conference more credit that it now receives.

[carney2]

Let's face it - if and when the PL goes to football scholarships, things are going to change because the Ivy will feel the competitive balance has been altered.

Time to click forward into 2008. The competitive balance already has been altered. The new financial aid landscape in the Ivy League means that for many of the Ivy schools football scholarships are no longer in the discussion because many (most) of the football types already qualify for a free ride. I was amazed this year in researching for the Patsy Ratings how many really well rated kids would be considering lists of schools like this

Considering: Texas, LSU, UCLA, Princeton

Let's face it, some of the Ivys have bumped up their recruiting and are now frequently going head to head with BCS schools for recruits. Princeton stole a RB this year from Urban Meyer and Florida. Even if/when they approve scholarships, the Patriot League will find it increasingly difficult to compete with much of the Ivy League in football - particularly Harvard, Yale and Princeton. Yet another reason to reconsider this whole arrangement and maybe ratchet it down a notch.

As an aside - and a completely different topic - all of this "action" in Ivy recruiting has created a problem in the ivory tower. Ivy League football is quickly separating into the "haves" and the "have-nots." The haves are the schools with the $$$ to pull off this financial aid giveaway. They include the aforementioned holy trinity of Harvard, Yale and Princeton and, believe it or not, Brown. The other four are forced to play their own brand of "me too," but, to one degree or another, are the Have-nots in this game. In effect, if something isn't done to level the Ivy playing field, it is headed for a two tier league. What does this mean for the Patriot League? It means that with or without football scholarships, you are probably going to get your butts kicked by the haves. You may, however, continue to be competitive with the have-nots.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Thanks postersxthumbsupx

This has been an interesting read.

Three conclusions (from my perspective).

1. The PL needs to keep the historic ties to the IVY league.
2. While keeping number 1 and as long as the IVY's are content to stay out of the playoffs, the PL teams should schedule at least one game a year with the CAA, SoCon, Gateway, etc.
3. Whether or not the PL or IVYs should have more respect in the polls can be debated all day, but until the regular season schedules change and/or the PL wins some games in the playoffs, it is understandable why pollsters (whether posters or sports writers) are hesitant to give the conference more credit that it now receives.

I could have saved you time and called this "the status quo". And all this does is perpetuate the problems of recognition of the League. Ivy wins will still mean nothing. Lehigh will beat Villanova occasionally, Colgate will beat Towson, and Holy Cross will upset UMass at some point - but so much is riding on these games. Colgate beats Towson? Big deal- they're 3-8. Lehigh beats Villanova? They were 6-5. With one autobid OOC a year, it's a complete crapshoot on whether it's a "quality win" for playoff contention or just another OOC game.

I'm sure the PL thinks that the Ivy games somehow keep us all "close". But it's high time to call them what they are right now: albatrosses around our necks come playoff time, with not particularly good away presence at PL venues, and also not particularly good deals (3-for-1... ecch).

The only really compelling reason I'm hearing is proximity and tradition. The question is, how much will the League pay in order to keep this up? With a 3-for-1 deal with Cornell, you have to believe that it is costing Colgate dearly, and I'll bet that it's costing every school in terms of box-office.

Get rid of it entirely? I'm not proposing that. But what's the value beyond two games a year?

[kardplayer]

I think you're all missing one major point here - when was the last time a Patriot League team got "Woofed" - 5 years ago? It happens to every conference, and I don't think the Patriot is not getting our fair share of at larges, based on final regular season records.

I'm pretty sure there was an at large bid 2 years ago (maybe 3), but its not like the league is tearing up the OOC games we have today. Ivy scheduling isn't the issue - if we were beating them, we'd get at larges.

[Go...gate]

Time to click forward into 2008. The competitive balance already has been altered. The new financial aid landscape in the Ivy League means that for many of the Ivy schools football scholarships are no longer in the discussion because many (most) of the football types already qualify for a free ride. I was amazed this year in researching for the Patsy Ratings how many really well rated kids would be considering lists of schools like this

Considering: Texas, LSU, UCLA, Princeton

Let's face it, some of the Ivys have bumped up their recruiting and are now frequently going head to head with BCS schools for recruits. Princeton stole a RB this year from Urban Meyer and Florida. Even if/when they approve scholarships, the Patriot League will find it increasingly difficult to compete with much of the Ivy League in football - particularly Harvard, Yale and Princeton. Yet another reason to reconsider this whole arrangement and maybe ratchet it down a notch.

As an aside - and a completely different topic - all of this "action" in Ivy recruiting has created a problem in the ivory tower. Ivy League football is quickly separating into the "haves" and the "have-nots." The haves are the schools with the $$$ to pull off this financial aid giveaway. They include the aforementioned holy trinity of Harvard, Yale and Princeton and, believe it or not, Brown. The other four are forced to play their own brand of "me too," but, to one degree or another, are the Have-nots in this game. In effect, if something isn't done to level the Ivy playing field, it is headed for a two tier league. What does this mean for the Patriot League? It means that with or without football scholarships, you are probably going to get your butts kicked by the haves. You may, however, continue to be competitive with the have-nots.

Carney, you are on target, but not entirely. The Ivies are also determined to further reduce roster sizes for football (there was discussion re: this on the Ivy VoyForums Board) and this will hamper their competitiveness, IMO. Also, let's face it - it is getting harder and harder to gain admission to the Ivies and especially the Big Three. Princeton accepted less than 10% of its applicants for this year's incoming class.

[Go...gate]

Cornell is actually off our Future Schedules starting in 2011 (after they come to visit in 2010), but it could just be because we're negotiating

Really, what do we gain from getting them to visit us? The money from the gate? We can't be making that much anyway. Home-field advantage? The advantage we get from Hamilton is being so darn far away from everything, which is pretty much what you get when you travel to Ithaca. Besides, as we've proven, we can win games there.

Colgate doesn't have a long tradition of playing lots of home games. Go...gate will regale you of the days when we regularly had 2 each season (not so much "Red Raiders" as "Road Raiders" in those days). Our new AD (who isn't really even that new anymore) is really pushing our schedule as is with 6 home games.

I see what you're saying, and I tend to agree that we ought to be getting more home games in these deals. But, getting home games against the Ivies doesn't get us very much, as a League. They willl still be games that carry less weight nationally than games against other conferences do. We sign deals with them for reasons that go beyond playoff positioning. History does matter at our schools, and certainly at Colgate, given the long history we have with the Ivies.


And attendance has not improved, either.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I think you're all missing one major point here - when was the last time a Patriot League team got "Woofed" - 5 years ago? It happens to every conference, and I don't think the Patriot is not getting our fair share of at larges, based on final regular season records.

I'm pretty sure there was an at large bid 2 years ago (maybe 3), but its not like the league is tearing up the OOC games we have today. Ivy scheduling isn't the issue - if we were beating them, we'd get at larges.

I disagree. All our OOC games with the Ivy suffer this branding problem. When PL schools have to shop their playoff resume by saying "we beat Harvard", does the committee shrug their shoulders? The answer, clearly, is yes. Just look at the AGS voting this year. Despite winning the Ivy last year, Harvard isn't even ranked, while Yale is on the out reaches of the Top 25. Despite going 9-0 in their first 9 games last year, Yale couldn't even crack the Top 10 during the course of the season.

Let's say Fordham beats Rhode Island this year. What will this mean? If Rhody goes on and wins the CAA it means a lot, but in past years it hasn't meant much at all. If you're going to hang your hat on one CAA/SoCon/Gateway/whatever win, you have better be awful lucky to pick a team that will be great: otherwise, like Colgate's win over Towson last year, it will be met with a big shrug. In the preseason that looked like a great test for the League: when it happened, it was barely an afterthought.

Wouldn't 2 Ivy, 2 autobid conference, and 1 NEC/BSC game make more sense (and 2/2/2 in 12-game years)? A win over a (say) 6-5 Furman team ends up pulling a lot more weight than a win over an 8-1 Harvard or Yale.

[OL FU]

I could have saved you time and called this "the status quo". And all this does is perpetuate the problems of recognition of the League. Ivy wins will still mean nothing. Lehigh will beat Villanova occasionally, Colgate will beat Towson, and Holy Cross will upset UMass at some point - but so much is riding on these games. Colgate beats Towson? Big deal- they're 3-8. Lehigh beats Villanova? They were 6-5. With one autobid OOC a year, it's a complete crapshoot on whether it's a "quality win" for playoff contention or just another OOC game.

I'm sure the PL thinks that the Ivy games somehow keep us all "close". But it's high time to call them what they are right now: albatrosses around our necks come playoff time, with not particularly good away presence at PL venues, and also not particularly good deals (3-for-1... ecch).

The only really compelling reason I'm hearing is proximity and tradition. The question is, how much will the League pay in order to keep this up? With a 3-for-1 deal with Cornell, you have to believe that it is costing Colgate dearly, and I'll bet that it's costing every school in terms of box-office.

Get rid of it entirely? I'm not proposing that. But what's the value beyond two games a year?


OK You got me. I would agree only play two IVY's a year. And quite scheduling Marist, Duquense, Robert Morris's two or three games a yearxnodx

[DFW HOYA]

Two thoughts about at-large bids and the Patriot:

1. They're gone for the forseeable future.

2. At large bids are all about perception. A school like Southern Illinois could be in the market for an at-large bid almost every year because AD's have brand awareness for SIU, where a 7-4 finish for Holy Cross wouldn't get that second look.

So how does the SoCon or Gateway combat this? Tougher out of conference scheduling. How does the PL combat this? Well, it doesn't.

[Fordham]

I disagree. All our OOC games with the Ivy suffer this branding problem. When PL schools have to shop their playoff resume by saying "we beat Harvard", does the committee shrug their shoulders? The answer, clearly, is yes. Just look at the AGS voting this year. Despite winning the Ivy last year, Harvard isn't even ranked, while Yale is on the out reaches of the Top 25. Despite going 9-0 in their first 9 games last year, Yale couldn't even crack the Top 10 during the course of the season.

Let's say Fordham beats Rhode Island this year. What will this mean? If Rhody goes on and wins the CAA it means a lot, but in past years it hasn't meant much at all. If you're going to hang your hat on one CAA/SoCon/Gateway/whatever win, you have better be awful lucky to pick a team that will be great: otherwise, like Colgate's win over Towson last year, it will be met with a big shrug. In the preseason that looked like a great test for the League: when it happened, it was barely an afterthought.

Wouldn't 2 Ivy, 2 autobid conference, and 1 NEC/BSC game make more sense (and 2/2/2 in 12-game years)? A win over a (say) 6-5 Furman team ends up pulling a lot more weight than a win over an 8-1 Harvard or Yale.

I agree with your overall point about playing less of the Ivies.

One quick comment here is that your point about us knocking off Rhody and a team knocking off a .500ish Furman seem to contradict one another. I read your 2nd paragraph about Rhody saying that we need to not just play one of the teams from a better conference but pick a better team from one of the better conferences. Then you mention beating a 6 - 5 Furman team as though that's going to help and you lost me a bit.

Again, though, I agree overall that a 1 - 2 Ivy, 1 - 2 CAA/Southern/Gateway and 1 - 2 NEC schedule seems optimal.

On a personal note, schedule-wise, I think things should really be picking up for us and it'll be a shame if we can't put together some nice games that also are easy on the travel expenses. Albany, Stony Brook and Hofstra are all very solid programs and games that I'd feel great about having every year (if not all 3, then 2 of those 3 every year). Add in our rivalry with Columbia and that's 4 OOC slots easily taken up with pretty quick trips.

[OL FU]

Two thoughts about at-large bids and the Patriot:

1. They're gone for the forseeable future.

2. At large bids are all about perception. A school like Southern Illinois could be in the market for an at-large bid almost every year because AD's have brand awareness for SIU, where a 7-4 finish for Holy Cross wouldn't get that second look.

So how does the SoCon or Gateway combat this? Tougher out of conference scheduling. How does the PL combat this? Well, it doesn't.

My answer above was a little smart ass. Sorry to LFN, but that is part of it. I know that the Marist, Robert Morris, etc are DI, but the perception (right or wrong) is that they may not be as good as the DIIs on many SoCon schedules. Look at the following:

Furman 2008 OOC
Va Tech
Colgate
Delaware
Mars Hill

Citadel

Clemson
Florida
Princeton
Weber International

Bottom of the league last year Western Carolina

Shorter
Florida State
Liberty
Presbyterian

Georgia Southern
Georgia
Austin Peay
Northeastern

As I said, my answer that LFN didn't like was probably too short. It it simply too many IVY's, too many non-schollies and and not enough conferences that people can use to rate you.

Most of the SoCon's play a DII or below. But how many of the PL teams play four IVYs and a non-schollie. Or two IVYs and three non-schollies.

Everyone of those schedules has an FBS, and a variety of conferences within FCS. CAA, PL, OVC, BSouth, Ivys. I doubt seriously you would get that type of variety in the typical PL schedule unless you like counting lower level NEC and PFL teams.

[OL FU]

I agree with your overall point about playing less of the Ivies.

One quick comment here is that your point about us knocking off Rhody and a team knocking off a .500ish Furman seem to contradict one another. I read your 2nd paragraph about Rhody saying that we need to not just play one of the teams from a better conference but pick a better team from one of the better conferences. Then you mention beating a 6 - 5 Furman team as though that's going to help and you lost me a bit.

Again, though, I agree overall that a 1 - 2 Ivy, 1 - 2 CAA/Southern/Gateway and 1 - 2 NEC schedule seems optimal.

On a personal note, schedule-wise, I think things should really be picking up for us and it'll be a shame if we can't put together some nice games that also are easy on the travel expenses. Albany, Stony Brook and Hofstra are all very solid programs and games that I'd feel great about having every year (if not all 3, then 2 of those 3 every year). Add in our rivalry with Columbia and that's 4 OOC slots easily taken up with pretty quick trips.


I imagine the comment about Furman relates more to tradition. Beating a team that has been in the playoffs 15 or so times and is consistently rated in the top 25. However, I agree with you. In thinking about this thread, if Colgate beats Furman this year they will get some creds but if Furman is 1-3 after the first four games, it will discrease significantly and quickly. If Furman beats UD the next week and performs well in the SoCon, then the win looks better and better.

[Fordham]

Two thoughts about at-large bids and the Patriot:

1. They're gone for the forseeable future.
2. At large bids are all about perception. A school like Southern Illinois could be in the market for an at-large bid almost every year because AD's have brand awareness for SIU, where a 7-4 finish for Holy Cross wouldn't get that second look.

So how does the SoCon or Gateway combat this? Tougher out of conference scheduling. How does the PL combat this? Well, it doesn't.
Really? I disagree. If Colgate had only beaten Cornell 17 - 14 instead of losing to them by that score, they'd have been in imo and in a year when I don't think the league had been getting a ton of respect.

Getting an at-large is clearly some combination of record, strength of schedule and strength of conference ... but out of those I'd argue that wins are clearly the most important. Better to beat a (perceived) crappy team than lose to a (perceived) strong team from a good conference imo.

[LUHawker]

As I said, my answer that LFN didn't like was probably too short. It it simply too many IVY's, too many non-schollies and and not enough conferences that people can use to rate you.

Most of the SoCon's play a DII or below. But how many of the PL teams play four IVYs and a non-schollie. Or two IVYs and three non-schollies.

Everyone of those schedules has an FBS, and a variety of conferences within FCS. CAA, PL, OVC, BSouth, Ivys. I doubt seriously you would get that type of variety in the typical PL schedule unless you like counting lower level NEC and PFL teams.

In general, the PL does schedule too many Ivies. However, the PL overall, does not over-schedule the non-schollies and/or the NEC/PFL teams; rateher,there are a couple of teams that over-schedule these teams. Bucknell, G'Town and Fordham have been the more egregious schedulers of this class of competition. Lehigh, Colgate and Lafayette have typically scheduled one of these per year, which to me is very acceptable and equivalent to App. St. and Ga. Southern scheduling a D-II like Lenoir-Rhyme or Delaware scheduling West Chester or Montana taking on Fort Lewis. The perception problem arises when a Bucknell schedules 2-3 of these teams per year (losing doesn't help either). This combined with the heavy fare of Ivy teams weakens overll perception. Lehigh and Colgate have historically (at least recently) had the most diverse schedules. Lehigh has had two teams from scholly conferences in the past few years on the schedule (Villanova and VMI, for example) while Colgate has had UMass. Geographically and traditionally, playing the Ivies make a ton of sense, so it would be difficult to eliminate too many of these games. I'd be happy with no more than two per year on Lehigh's schedule, opening up another slot for a Gateway, SoCon or CAA team.

[OL FU]

In general, the PL does schedule too many Ivies. However, the PL overall, does not over-schedule the non-schollies and/or the NEC/PFL teams; rateher,there are a couple of teams that over-schedule these teams. Bucknell, G'Town and Fordham have been the more egregious schedulers of this class of competition. Lehigh, Colgate and Lafayette have typically scheduled one of these per year, which to me is very acceptable and equivalent to App. St. and Ga. Southern scheduling a D-II like Lenoir-Rhyme or Delaware scheduling West Chester or Montana taking on Fort Lewis. The perception problem arises when a Bucknell schedules 2-3 of these teams per year (losing doesn't help either). This combined with the heavy fare of Ivy teams weakens overll perception. Lehigh and Colgate have historically (at least recently) had the most diverse schedules. Lehigh has had two teams from scholly conferences in the past few years on the schedule (Villanova and VMI, for example) while Colgate has had UMass. Geographically and traditionally, playing the Ivies make a ton of sense, so it would be difficult to eliminate too many of these games. I'd be happy with no more than two per year on Lehigh's schedule, opening up another slot for a Gateway, SoCon or CAA team.

I agree. Last year it seemed worse because the conference champion is one of the schools that has such a schedule. xnodx Personally, I think the most harm to the perception of weakness in 07 came from Fordham getting beat by Bucknell. I will be the first to admit that you guys know how good or bad of a loss that was but I think many outside of the league simply wentxeyebrowx

[Fordham]

I agree that our scheduling has been horrendous. Fortunately we seem to improving on that year by year and this year's is pretty good.

I also agree that our loss to Bucknell didn't help league perception but there's no way that it was a seminal moment in FCS' perception of the PL.

I still say that Gate winning at Cornell puts them in last year and then we would have had our at large and then I wonder if this thread would have been started? In a nutshell, our league champ needs to go 8 - 3 if they have a good OOC like Colgate or HC did last year or likely 9 - 2 if they have a perceived very weak OOC like we did last year and they'll get an at large. I actually don't have a problem with that.

[carney2]

Also, let's face it - it is getting harder and harder to gain admission to the Ivies and especially the Big Three. Princeton accepted less than 10% of its applicants for this year's incoming class.

I'm betting that Hughes made sure that "enough" guys with marginal SATs and grades barely cracking the top quartile of their graduating class, but who run 4.4 40s, or weigh 290 as an all-state tackle, or threw for 2,800 yards as a senior are in that 10%.

I'm betting that the talk about reducing roster size is just that - talk. Let's say they cut from 100 to 85. What's the big deal?

[carney2]

For an at large, a PL runner up must be 9-2, or at worst 8-3, with at least one quality win over a non-Ivy OOC.

[danefan]

For an at large, a PL runner up must be 9-2, or at worst 8-3, with at least one quality win over a non-Ivy OOC.

At 8-3 with no marquee OOC wins, a PL would have to hope that other teams don't hit the 7 DI win mark. Just like last year. Had Georgia Southern won 7 DI games Colgate wouldn't have made it even had they not lost to Cornell.

[OL FU]

I
I also agree that our loss to Bucknell didn't help league perception but there's no way that it was a seminal moment in FCS' perception of the PL.




Not to beat a dead horse and it certainly wasn't the only thing, but I seem to remember it being mentioned more than once when people were discussing last year's polls.xnodx

PS, as a point of clarification. I would not put the PL near the bottom of the conferences. Leaving the IVYs out of the conversation since they don't participate in the playoffs, I would probably put the PL 6th most years below the CAA, SoCon, Gateway, Big Sky and in previous years the GWFC.

So while I may sound like it I am one that thinks the PL is a low level conference, I'm really not. I suppose I have been standing up for the pollsters who have a difficult time gauging the strength of the conference due to scheduling.

Edited because I forgot the Southland:o

[Go...gate]

I'm betting that Hughes made sure that "enough" guys with marginal SATs and grades barely cracking the top quartile of their graduating class, but who run 4.4 40s, or weigh 290 as an all-state tackle, or threw for 2,800 yards as a senior are in that 10%.

I'm betting that the talk about reducing roster size is just that - talk. Let's say they cut from 100 to 85. What's the big deal?


The reality is that it is not happening as much as you think. That is why Steve Tosches was fired. Hughes has hung around because he is willing to accept not getting as many "slots" as he would like.

[DFW HOYA]

However, the PL overall, does not over-schedule the non-schollies and/or the NEC/PFL teams; rateher,there are a couple of teams that over-schedule these teams. Bucknell, G'Town and Fordham have been the more egregious schedulers of this class of competition.

The three schools you mention also share the distinction for the fewest Ivy games--Georgetown and Fordham will soon be down to one a year, Bucknell two. So who can they realistically schedule?

I-A? Realistically, no.

CAA? The league has a limited number of non-conference games, ten of which annually go to I-A schools. And as the NEC now has picked up more non-conference games (7) against the CAA than the Patriot did in 2007 (6), there are simply fewer games available, and considerably fewer if schools want home and away series.

How about the Gateway, OVC, or Southland? See "CAA" above, and add a few $ for travel.

To Georgetown's credit, they have added Howard (4 games), Old Dominion (4 games) and Richmond (2 games) for future series, but also had to backfill with two with Davidson and one with Marist.

[Seawolf97]

I agree with your overall point about playing less of the Ivies.

One quick comment here is that your point about us knocking off Rhody and a team knocking off a .500ish Furman seem to contradict one another. I read your 2nd paragraph about Rhody saying that we need to not just play one of the teams from a better conference but pick a better team from one of the better conferences. Then you mention beating a 6 - 5 Furman team as though that's going to help and you lost me a bit.

Again, though, I agree overall that a 1 - 2 Ivy, 1 - 2 CAA/Southern/Gateway and 1 - 2 NEC schedule seems optimal.

On a personal note, schedule-wise, I think things should really be picking up for us and it'll be a shame if we can't put together some nice games that also are easy on the travel expenses. Albany, Stony Brook and Hofstra are all very solid programs and games that I'd feel great about having every year (if not all 3, then 2 of those 3 every year). Add in our rivalry with Columbia and that's 4 OOC slots easily taken up with pretty quick trips.

It would be beneficial to both Stonybrook and Fordham to play home and away. I think this will be our 11th or 12 th game against Hofstra coming up and I know it will continue going forward. Those games always draw good crowds even in our lean years , I dont see any reason why a Fordham -Stonybrook matchup would be any different.
Looking at Colgate their shcedule looks solid this season as always. Stonybrook, Coastal Carolina and Furman .

[401ks]

To Georgetown's credit, they have added Howard (4 games), Old Dominion (4 games) and Richmond (2 games) for future series, but also had to backfill with two with Davidson and one with Marist.

"backfill"? xcoffeex

Georgetown is "backfilling" with PFL teams? (Marist is PFL in 2009)

Georgetown??? xconfusedx

(No disrespect to Georgetown or its football program is implied here. My son was heavily recruited by G'town, and but for short-of-spectacular SAT scores might have been a Hoya next season.)

And so many folks here on the AGS board scream that PFL teams need to schedule more "top tier" FCS teams in order to be taken seriously.

Might I ask where the PFL teams are supposed to find all of these games vs. "top tier" FCS programs if programs like Georgetown are seemingly lowering themselves to "backfill" with PFL teams? xeyebrowx


However, the PL overall, does not over-schedule the non-schollies and/or the NEC/PFL teams; rateher,there are a couple of teams that over-schedule these teams. Bucknell, G'Town and Fordham have been the more egregious schedulers of this class of competition.


The three schools you mention also share the distinction for the fewest Ivy games--Georgetown and Fordham will soon be down to one a year, Bucknell two. So who can they realistically schedule?

I-A? Realistically, no.

CAA? The league has a limited number of non-conference games, ten of which annually go to I-A schools. And as the NEC now has picked up more non-conference games (7) against the CAA than the Patriot did in 2007 (6), there are simply fewer games available, and considerably fewer if schools want home and away series.

"Yeah, PFL! Hoist yourselves up by your bootstraps and make something of yourselves! (But "your kind" is not welcome here. Your entrance is around the back. And don't think of drinking out of a "top tier" drinking fountain!) xnonono2x

In order to "play up", other teams have to be willing to "play down". Yet, teams that "play down" are "backfilling" and being "egregious schedulers of this class of competition".

I cheer Appalachian State and Jacksonville for their scheduled game in 2008! Jacksonville is stepping up their game, and ASU is giving "the little guy" an opportunity just like Michigan gave them. xthumbsupx

More "top tier" FCS programs need to put their scheduling books where their fans' mouths are! (And more "bottom tier" - for lack of a better term - programs need to lift up their heads, throw off their inferiority complexes, and stop scheduling three or four sub-DI teams every year.) xsmiley_wix

[OL FU]

"backfill"? xcoffeex

Georgetown is "backfilling" with PFL teams? (Marist is PFL in 2009)

Georgetown??? xconfusedx

(No disrespect to Georgetown or its football program is implied here. My son was heavily recruited by G'town, and but for short-of-spectacular SAT scores might have been a Hoya next season.)

And so many folks here on the AGS board scream that PFL teams need to schedule more "top tier" FCS teams in order to be taken seriously.

Might I ask where the PFL teams are supposed to find all of these games vs. "top tier" FCS programs if programs like Georgetown are seemingly lowering themselves to "backfill" with PFL teams? xeyebrowx





"Yeah, PFL! Hoist yourselves up by your bootstraps and make something of yourselves! (But "your kind" is not welcome here. Your entrance is around the back. And don't think of drinking out of a "top tier" drinking fountain!) xnonono2x

In order to "play up", other teams have to be willing to "play down". Yet, teams that "play down" are "backfilling" and being "egregious schedulers of this class of competition".

I cheer Appalachian State and Jacksonville for their scheduled game in 2008! Jacksonville is stepping up their game, and ASU is giving "the little guy" an opportunity just like Michigan gave them. xthumbsupx

More "top tier" FCS programs need to put their scheduling books where their fans' mouths are! (And more "bottom tier" - for lack of a better term - programs need to lift up their heads, throw off their inferiority complexes, and stop scheduling three or four sub-DI teams every year.) xsmiley_wix


I believe the problem discussed above wasn't teams playing one PFL team but playing three in a year is a little much. xnodx

I personally would prefer to beat the snot out of Davidson any day than to be playing Mars Hill:D

[401ks]

I believe the problem discussed above wasn't teams playing one PFL team but playing three in a year is a little much. xnodx

Which team plays three PFL teams in a year? Even if you were to count the future-PFL team Marist, I don't believe that there is any team in the PL that plays more than one PFL team next year.

And is there a SINGLE CAA team (for example) that lowers itself to play a PFL team next year?


I personally would prefer to beat the snot out of Davidson any day than to be playing Mars Hill:D

Take care for what you wish, for it may come true! :D

[RabidRabbit]

I am very surprised that the Pioneer teams managed to skip South Dakota and UND this year.

Except that after NDSU and SDSU cleaned up on Valpo two years in a row, I seem to remember an edict from Pioneer powers that they would not play the schollie teams.

Obviously USD Toreros ignored that, and we would love to see other Pioneers stretching out, but no luck for the UxDs.

[OL FU]

Which team plays three PFL teams in a year? Even if you were to count the future-PFL team Marist, I don't believe that there is any team in the PL that plays more than one PFL team next year.

And is there a SINGLE CAA team (for example) that lowers itself to play a PFL team next year?



Take care for what you wish, for it may come true! :D

Counting Marist, Fordham played two PFLs and one NEC, same thing

As far as Davidson, please let it happen. Please let it happenxnodx

[OL FU]

Bucknell played Duquesne (NEC), Stony Brook ( I know big south now) and Marist ( to be PFL)

[LBPop]

"backfill"? xcoffeex

Georgetown is "backfilling" with PFL teams? (Marist is PFL in 2009)

Georgetown??? xconfusedx



I think the reference is not to the level of football being played by Georgetown, but to the level of opponent that they have been trying to schedule. Nobody associated with Georgetown football is looking down on anyone. Heck, in an earlier post I put the over/under for Hoya victories in 2008 at 1 and DFW is considering taking the "under"...(me too...:o xbawlingx ).

[DFW HOYA]

The reference referred to the need to fill games that appeared to be set for another opponent--whether it's Davidson or Delaware, it's still a replacement game.

[JoltinJoe]

Personally, I think the most harm to the perception of weakness in 07 came from Fordham getting beat by Bucknell. I will be the first to admit that you guys know how good or bad of a loss that was but I think many outside of the league simply wentxeyebrowx

How much stock do you in put into a meaningless game at the end of the season? Fordham was coming off a huge win against Holy Cross, which locked up the PL title and the autobid. It was undefeated at that point in league play, with its next meaningful game being the first round of the playoffs. It was a young team which had, at that point, accomplished everything it needed to do in the regular season. Fordham wasn't the first team ever to be caught looking ahead.

No disrespect intended toward Bucknell, but if Fordham needed to win that game, I suspect it would have done so.

I think, perhaps, more weight should be put on the game with UMass.

[PLLB]

I'm betting that the talk about reducing roster size is just that - talk. Let's say they cut from 100 to 85. What's the big deal?


Thats a huge deal. You have never coached football huh?

[OL FU]

How much stock do you in put into a meaningless game at the end of the season? Fordham was coming off a huge win against Holy Cross, which locked up the PL title and the autobid. It was undefeated at that point in league play, with its next meaningful game being the first round of the playoffs. It was a young team which had, at that point, accomplished everything it needed to do in the regular season. Fordham wasn't the first team ever to be caught looking ahead.

No disrespect intended toward Bucknell, but if Fordham needed to win that game, I suspect it would have done so.

I think, perhaps, more weight should be put on the game with UMass.

The same could be said for the UMass game in reverse. UMass been to the playoffs many times expecting to win, over looking a Fordham team that just got beat by Bucknell. I'm not saying that is the case, but if that is the rationale it works both ways. xnodx

It is the entire season that counts ( unless you win the entire thing). My point was simply, that loss did a lot of harm. You still made the top 25 so it didn't wipe you out but I can't imagine people didn't think about it.

Also, this goes to the heart of the argument about PL ratings in the polls.

Fordham played well but didn't win the UMass game.

[JoltinJoe]

The same could be said for the UMass game in reverse. UMass been to the playoffs many times expecting to win, over looking a Fordham team that just got beat by Bucknell. I'm not saying that is the case, but if that is the rationale it works both ways. xnodx


Not buying this. You're saying UMass may have viewed its first-round playoff game as a "meaningless game."

Big difference.

[OL FU]

Not buying this. You're saying UMass may have viewed its first-round playoff game as a "meaningless game."

Big difference.

I am saying the rationale you provided makes as much sense as the one I did.

I understand that teams get up and down for different games. I also understand that teams sometimes don't get up for playoff games when they think it is in the bag. (edit) and the point is again, it was another loss for the PL. It is getting harder to argue the "it was a good loss" perspective.

Now let's get back to my original point. We were talking about why the leagues is perceived weaker than it might really be. I may have stretched the point of the Bucknell loss but if you think it doesn't have an impact then you need to think again. Add it to a loss to Dayton and a loss to Albany and the perception increases.

I am not arguing whether it is right or wrong but I think I understand the perception and you can twist it and turn it anyway you want. But the perception that LFN is discussing in the start of the tread exists (whether justified or not), and it isn't helped when the champion gets beat by the bottom of the conference.

[ngineer]

I am saying the rationale you provided makes as much sense as the one I did.

I understand that teams get up and down for different games. I also understand that teams sometimes don't get up for playoff games when they think it is in the bag. (edit) and the point is again, it was another loss for the PL. It is getting harder to argue the "it was a good loss" perspective.

Now let's get back to my original point. We were talking about why the leagues is perceived weaker than it might really be. I may have stretched the point of the Bucknell loss but if you think it doesn't have an impact then you need to think again. Add it to a loss to Dayton and a loss to Albany and the perception increases.

I am not arguing whether it is right or wrong but I think I understand the perception and you can twist it and turn it anyway you want. But the perception that LFN is discussing in the start of the tread exists (whether justified or not), and it isn't helped when the champion gets beat by the bottom of the conference.

I agree with OL's point...all teams get caught 'napping' at one time or another..some are able to still squeak out a win despite the egg being laid, while others suffer the 'huge upset' or major spanking (Exhibit A being Holy Cross's embarrassment of Lehigh last year). The "perception" is what is crucial to the PL's acceptance, or lack thereof, around the national FCS community. Those of us who see us play every week and have seen our competition know that it is, generally, very good; including the Ivy League. But when we trip up, it is magnified because we don't have enough 'cred' (in today vernacular) to make up for the faux pas. So it's two steps forward, one step back. That's why we have to play more national/regional teams from the SoCon, CAA, Gateway, et al., to build up our League. If Fordham had had a win over an upper level team from one of those leagues during the season, the 'trip' against Bucknell would not have been so magnified.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

[/B]

I agree with OL's point...all teams get caught 'napping' at one time or another..some are able to still squeak out a win despite the egg being laid, while others suffer the 'huge upset' or major spanking (Exhibit A being Holy Cross's embarrassment of Lehigh last year). The "perception" is what is crucial to the PL's acceptance, or lack thereof, around the national FCS community. Those of us who see us play every week and have seen our competition know that it is, generally, very good; including the Ivy League. But when we trip up, it is magnified because we don't have enough 'cred' (in today vernacular) to make up for the faux pas. So it's two steps forward, one step back. That's why we have to play more national/regional teams from the SoCon, CAA, Gateway, et al., to build up our League. If Fordham had had a win over an upper level team from one of those leagues during the season, the 'trip' against Bucknell would not have been so magnified.

Fordham didn't help their cause with their three losses - two to conferences that have never even qualified for the playoffs (Albany, Dayton) and the other to a 3-8 team in their own league - all at home, too, incidentally. I remember thinking at the time that I could live with the Albany and Dayton losses since they were league champs and pretty good teams (all upper third of the GPI, I think). But the Bucknell loss was an absolute killer - they had only beaten two nonscholarship teams in Duquesne and Marist all year! There was no excuse to lose to that team, "looking ahead" or no.

This illustrates the "crapshoot" of scheduling one playoff team a year. URI suffered through a tough year, and Fordham's win over them elicited a huge shrug from the rest of FCS. Same with their wins over Columbia (admittedly a crosstown rival) and Marist. The rest of FCS really doesn't know what to think about how good they are. So, I broadly agree with Ol FU on that.

What is interesting is that this discussion has exposed the difference in scheduling within the PL. Fordham only plays Columbia, and Georgetown has had to fight and claw to play any Ivy League schools. Bucknell only has one Ivy this year. The only teams that have been loading up on Ivy opponents are the four other core members, with Holy Cross being the absolute worst (four last year, four this year) followed closely by Lafayette (four last year, three this year).

Back to the original point: let's say Lafayette sweeps the three Ivies this year, and Holy Cross sweeps their four games. What does this do for the League, aside from giving PL fans a little chest-bump for beating the Ivy League teams? If Harvard or Yale loses their PL slate but goes 7-3, would they even be ranked? Would anyone nationally know what to make to those wins? They wouldn't. But if Colgate beats Furman, they would, even if the Paladins only go 6-5.

At the end of the year, a PL team is going to go hat in hand to the playoff committee with a team that says, "We beat (Harvard/Yale/Princeton)". And a SoCon team is going to have a resume that says, "We beat Appalachian State." The PL will lose that battle every time.

[OL FU]

One other point is consistency makes people over look a weak year for a conference. Take the SoCon in 2006. We put two teams in the playoffs, ASU and FU. Hindsight, being as powerful as it is, requires that I acknowledge that Furman probably should not have been included. 2006 was not a strong year for the Socon. We were basically ASU and everybody else. Why did Furman get in? We had a 8-3 record from a conference that the year before had two teams finish in the top four of the playoffs. The year before that two teams consistently rated in the top four (before getting surprised by the CAA). Looking at the year afterwards, 2007 may have been one of the best years ever, top to bottom, for the Socon. As mentioned many times, the SoCon has consistently placed teams either in the champ game or winning the champ game. When you have that resume you get the benefit of the doubt even in years that you don't deserve it. Fair, maybe, maybe not.

Unfortunately, the consistency for the PL since 2003 has been in the other direction. Going back to 2006, many discuss how well Lafayette played ASU, but the flip side is how badly Colgate was blown out by UNH. (that was 2006 wasn't it:o )

Not to state the obvious again, but the trend will only change when the close games against UMass, etc become wins. xnodx