5 years eligibility for football student athletes is heating up again

[MplsBison]

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=3405784


Big 12 commissioner Dan Beebe has repeatedly heard football coaches complain about the attrition caused by dwindling scholarship limits and longer seasons. And he wants to do something about it.

Beebe has proposed a plan that would provide five years of eligibility for college football players. He hopes to gain support before eventually taking his idea to the NCAA Management Council for action.

The proposal would end redshirting in college football and cease the current practice of four seasons of eligibility during a five-year window.

Beebe said that college football differs than other sports because of the widespread practice of redshirting freshmen.

"The thought would be why we would give them an extra year in that sport," Beebe said. "But you're talking about a sport with more redshirts than any other sport. And it's a sport where youngsters play a physical, very tough game with a lot of hard practices."


The bold heads off any would be naysayers comparing other sports off at the pass.

Don't even try it. It's a red herring.


Football is unlike any other sport, so you don't get to compare it to any other sport.





Bottom line is that 5 years eligibility is guaranteed to happen. Nothing you can do to stop it.

So either get on board now or get on board when it passes soon. Your choice.

[Hoyadestroya85]

wow... will every kid be doing double majors then?

[DFW HOYA]

So either get on board now or get on board when it passes soon. Your choice.

Or simply stay with four years and leave it at that.

(And no, that isn't a call for you to send such nonconformists to Division II.)

[MplsBison]

From the article since you didn't read it:


NCAA statistics indicate that Division I-A college football players take an average of 4.7 years to graduate.



I don't care if takes the average Gtown or Nova football player only 4 years to graduate.


No one is forcing them to take 5 years to graduate. They can choose to graduate in 4 years and simply leave a year of eligibility unused. Nothing would have changed.

[Hoyadestroya85]

they should be held to the same standard as other students... i

[MplsBison]

No students are forced to graduate in 4 years either. They can if they choose to. But certainly they can take as long as they need to compile the necessary credits.


At NDSU the pharmacy program is a 6 year program, for example.

[MplsBison]

There is no possible argument against 5 years eligibility.


Only old traditionalists who get scared and feel insecure at the possibility of any change.

[Hoyadestroya85]

There is no possible argument against 5 years eligibility.


Only old traditionalists who get scared and feel insecure at the possibility of any change.

hmm let me think..
Cost? that might be a thought

[slostang]

hmm let me think..
Cost? that might be a thought

I hate to defend Mplsbison, but you are still only paying for 85 (FBS) or 63 (FCS) scholarships a year so there would be no additional cost.

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

I hate to defend Mplsbison, but you are still only paying for 85 (FBS) or 63 (FCS) scholarships a year so there would be no additional cost.

But usually about 60% or so of the players on a typical Division I roster have had a redshirt year. Now instead of just paying for 5 years worth of scholarships to the players that have had redshirt years, you are paying for 5 years for nearly all of the players.

[Syntax Error]

I graduated in three years, with a double major. 5 years=pro sports.

[GannonFan]

There is no possible argument against 5 years eligibility.


Only old traditionalists who get scared and feel insecure at the possibility of any change.

Of course, there's the people who feel that football is already too far apart from the rest of the university and has developed into a de facto pro sports league with no real connection to the university for whom they supposedly play. Granted, FBS football is already past that point anyway, so going to 5 years of eligibility is probably a no brainer - heck, they'll be paying them pretty soon anyway. Wouldn't be shocked that with a 5 year eligibility they could even lower the amount of credits a person needs to take in order to be eligible. Doesn't mean it's a good thing and it doesn't mean any level other than FBS will adpot it, and truth be told, this is far from the sure thing you make it out to be. Time will tell of course.

[JayJ79]

There is no possible argument against 5 years eligibility.


Only old traditionalists who get scared and feel insecure at the possibility of any change.


Ah yes, resorting to name calling. The mark of an argument with true merit... or not.

"And it's a sport where youngsters play a physical, very tough game with a lot of hard practices." Yes, that is true for football. But also for many of the other sports as well.

If they move to 5 years, than sooner or later, people will be clamoring for 6 years, for which there will be "no possible argument against" that either.....

- That's good. Unless, of course, somebody comes up with 6-Minute Abs. Then you're in trouble, huh?
- No! No, no, not 6! I said 7. Nobody's comin' up with 6. Who works out in 6 minutes? You won't even get your heart goin, not even a mouse on a wheel.

[slostang]

But usually about 60% or so of the players on a typical Division I roster have had a redshirt year. Now instead of just paying for 5 years worth of scholarships to the players that have had redshirt years, you are paying for 5 years for nearly all of the players.

What you do not understand is that in any given year you are only paying for 85 (FBS) and 63 (FCS) scholarships. It does not matter how long each player use his scholarship, you can only offer so many in a given year.

[GOKATS]

I graduated in three years, with a double major. 5 years=pro sports.

Did you play FB?xeyebrowx

[Hoyadestroya85]

What you do not understand is that in any given year you are only paying for 85 (FBS) and 63 (FCS) scholarships. It does not matter how long each player use his scholarship, you can only offer so many in a given year.

Yes, but the college would have to develop some kind of program based on a 5th year, or have the students pursue masters degrees and in many cases masters programs are more expensive to run because of smaller class sizes and sometimes more qualified professors

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

What you do not understand is that in any given year you are only paying for 85 (FBS) and 63 (FCS) scholarships. It does not matter how long each player use his scholarship, you can only offer so many in a given year.

Then why do most FCS schools have a good bit more than 63 players on their rosters?

Shows how much I know, I guess xoopsx .

[GannonFan]

Yes, but the college would have to develop some kind of program based on a 5th year, and in many cases masters programs are more expensive to run because of smaller class sizes and sometimes more qualified professors

Like I said, there's no guarantee that a request to lower the amount of credits a player needs to be considered full-time won't come along with this proposal too. Wouldn't want to be burden with actual classes during the season.

[JackTwice]

What percentage of the students at your schools don't redshirt?

At SDSU there has only been 1 or 2 Freshman a year that don't redshirt.

[Hoyadestroya85]

Like I said, there's no guarantee that a request to lower the amount of credits a player needs to be considered full-time won't come along with this proposal too. Wouldn't want to be burden with actual classes during the season.

oh exactly.. how does 6 during the fall semester and 9 during the spring sound?

[slostang]

Then why do most FCS schools have a good bit more than 63 players on their rosters?

Shows how much I know, I guess xoopsx .

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but FCS teams have up to 63 scholarships to spread amoung up to 85 players. FBS teams can not split scholarships. There are also walk-ons.

[AppFan61]

It gives the advantage to the student athlete. They can actually play 5 years. Couple this rule with the one added last year that allows a non-penalized transfer for the last year of eligibility, if the student graduates on time. This allows the student to pursue the graduate program of his choice. With the current system, the kids that play right away, as true freshman, are at somewhat of a disadvantage academically. That extra year makes a huge difference.

There is one down side to the 5-year rule - kids that do graduate in 4 or less years can transfer at will. This adds another dimension to the recruiting process.

[Hoyadestroya85]

It gives the advantage to the student athlete. They can actually play 5 years. Couple this rule with the one added last year that allows a non-penalized transfer for the last year of eligibility, if the student graduates on time. This allows the student to pursue the graduate program of his choice. With the current system, the kids that play right away, as true freshman, are at somewhat of a disadvantage academically. That extra year makes a huge difference.

There is one down side to the 5-year rule - kids that do graduate in 4 or less years can transfer at will. This adds another dimension to the recruiting process.

that rule has been done away with.. only down a level

[AppFan61]

that rule has been done away with.. only down a level
I missed that one. Thanks. Then there is no down side.

[McTailGator]

wow... will every kid be doing double majors then?


OR a coach can pull a scholarship once a player completes his undergrad degree if that coach feels that scholarship would be better used for recruiting purposes, or to award another walk on who is performing better.

They also could use it to help fund slower learning players that need 4.5 or even 5 years to graduate, which will help a schools APR.

IMO, it really won't matter much other than to allow kids to get into some games a little earlier and start the learning process.

Given the fact that FCS schools are allowed to give partials, this might help us compete in the 4th quarter a little better against FBS schools. Espeically against the bottom feeding FBS's like the Slum Belch and the MAC who will do even more now to avoid playing the traditional FCS post season teams.

[McTailGator]

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but FCS teams have up to 63 scholarships to spread among up to 85 players. FBS teams can not split scholarships. There are also walk-ons.

You are correct.


IMO, this will help FCS more than it will help FBS.


Every FCS team will now have a Little more depth, which will help toward the end of the season and into the playoffs.


Now we just need the NCAA to eliminate the Limited Playoff Rosters so we can use that new found depth into the playoffs.

It sucks that kids can play all year, and then have to sit in the stands for the playoffs, and even worse, be left behind while traveling and even not allowed to go with their team to Chattanooga.

Those players that don't make the playoff rosters have to fund their own travel and hotel to Chattanooga and even buy a freaking ticket to the game all on their own. That's just not right.

[McTailGator]

Yes, but the college would have to develop some kind of program based on a 5th year, or have the students pursue masters degrees and in many cases masters programs are more expensive to run because of smaller class sizes and sometimes more qualified professors


They already have programs for that...

It's called, TAKE FEWER CLASSES, make better grades, and use that extra semester to play ball.

The NCAA requires athletes to be full time students and pass a minimum of 24 hours a year toward their declared majors. That's only 12 hours per semester. And most schools define full time as 15 hours per semester. Athletics is a class and counts for 2 hours. Freshmen Foundations and Orientation, which is a requirement at McNeese and probably most schools for in coming freshmen, are worth another couple of hours.

After the freshman year, another class or lab will give an athlete another hour or so to get to 15 - 17 hours per semester. But only 24 hours wen toward the degree program, while still knocking down the schools Core Curriculum and elective requirements. So bottom line is, unless a student takes 18 to 20 hours a semester, and or goes to summer school once or twice, it will be difficult to finish in 4 years anyway. They will need an extra semester or two.


I have 2 kids in college. Part of my requirement (if they wanted any of my money), was that I help them make their schedules out.

I didn't care what they scheduled (as long as it went toward the schools Core Curriculum AND toward their selected major requirements), but I did influence WHEN they took their classes.

I tended to make them schedule the math and sciences as early in the mornings as possible so their brains were fresh. But I also made them schedule a free period between each class so they have time to complete the assignments they just received in class, or simply just to review what was just discussed.

I know a lot of coaches and councilors advise their students to do the same. That way, they are free to practice, work, or simply go hang out with friends and team mates at the end of the day, unless that hour between classes was not enough.

My Kids schedules typically look like this.

* MWF 08:00-08:50 Class
* MWF 09:00-09:50 Study Period
* MWF 10:00-10:50 Class
* MWF 11:00-11:50 Study Period (and eat)
* MWF 1:00- 1:50 Class
* MWF 1:00- 1:50 Study Period

Tu/Thur 08:00-09:15 Class
Tu/Thur 09:20-10:45 Study Period
Tu/Thur 08:00-09:15 Class
Tu/Thur 10:50-12:05 Study Period (and eat)
Tu/Thur 12:15- 1:30 Class
Tu/Thur 1:40-2:55 Study Period

That's 18 hours a semester for my kids. Athletes can take a couple less on MWF in the fall so their travel schedule doesn't interfere with classes. and they have plenty of time to study. I always encouraged my kids to load up on Tue and Thur. because Mondays suck and they are ready to haul @$$ come Friday like I always was.

[MplsBison]

But usually about 60% or so of the players on a typical Division I roster have had a redshirt year. Now instead of just paying for 5 years worth of scholarships to the players that have had redshirt years, you are paying for 5 years for nearly all of the players.

A FCS team is paying 63 scholarships a year. Every year.



Think on that and then get back to us.

[MplsBison]

I graduated in three years, with a double major.

Irrelevant.


Fact: the average DI football player takes 4.7 years to graduate. The rules should be based on the majority, not extraordinary cases like yours.

[MplsBison]

"And it's a sport where youngsters play a physical, very tough game with a lot of hard practices." Yes, that is true for football. But also for many of the other sports as well.

Read the OP. You are not allowed to compare football's situation to any other sport's situation.


If they move to 5 years, than sooner or later, people will be clamoring for 6 years, for which there will be "no possible argument against" that either.....


Slippery slope fallacy.


MY argument is for 5 years. I have not said peep about 6 years. You trying to bring that point up is a strawman argument.



Besides that, there is a factual argument for 5 years and not 6 years.


As I said, the average DI football player graduates in 4.7 years. That warrants 5 years of eligibility.

If they averaged 5.7 years, that would warrant 6 years eligibility.

[MplsBison]

Yes, but the college would have to develop some kind of program based on a 5th year, or have the students pursue masters degrees and in many cases masters programs are more expensive to run because of smaller class sizes and sometimes more qualified professors

Purely false.


As I said, there is not a single school that forces a student to complete the coursework in 4 years. You have X credits that must be completed.

How long you take to complete them is up to you.


That's not just football players or student athletes, that's any student.


Say a degree requires 125 credits.

You can complete 113 credits, leave school for 25 years, then come back and complete the last 12 and get your degree.

[Syntax Error]

Purely false.
You can complete 113 credits, leave school for 25 years, then come back and complete the last 12 and get your degree.Not true at my D-I school. Credits expire.

[MplsBison]

Not true at my D-I school. Credits expire.

But it's beyond questioning that they do not expire within 5 years.

[McTailGator]

Not true at my D-I school. Credits expire.



While I have not checked McNeese's policy I do know that hours are good for at least 25 years.

That kind of Sucks if you ask me. Why would something someone learned 20 years prior not be good enough today? Why wouldn't a degree expire after so many years?


BUT on another note:

I went to McNeese with NBA Hall of Famer Joe Dumars of the Pistons while he was playing basketball at McNeese. He was drafted in 1983 after his 4th year of eligibility, and left for Detroit right away. I was a Freshman when Joe was a Senior.

He was only 6 hours (a couple of summer school classes) short of graduating when he was the Pistons Number One draft choice and they gave him a lot of money not to hang around Lake Charles to graduate.

2 weeks ago, he finally received his Bachelors degree in Business management from McNeese after taking some INTERNET based classes to earn his final 6 hours.

Joe is 3 years older than I am. He and my sister are the same age. What is really weired here is that my sister did not start going to college until 8 years ago when she decided to enroll with my 18 year old niece that had just graduated high school. My sister, who is a single mom, works full time and had to take classes at night, and during her lunch hour, but 8 years later she finally graduated with honors! xthumbsupx

So, EVEN THOUGH I WENT TO COLLEGE WITH DUMARS MORE THAN 25 YEARS AGO, MY OLDER SISTER WAS IN THE SAME GRADUATING CLASS WITH HIM. ;) Go figure. xrotatehx


Someone on the McNeese board asked if this would help our APR out. (;

[EmeryZach]

I think if you are going to do it for football you have to do it for all sports.

[McTailGator]

But usually about 60% or so of the players on a typical Division I roster have had a redshirt year. Now instead of just paying for 5 years worth of scholarships to the players that have had redshirt years, you are paying for 5 years for nearly all of the players.

It really would not increase costs that much.

I know the McNeese coaches have been pushing this for years. If our coaches could, they would redshirt EVERY incoming freshman regardless of talent, just because they feel they need to concentrate more on life transition and their studies more in year one than football.

A RS year allows the coaches to let them work with a player one on one before he is tossed in with the big boy's. MOST of the time these RS freshmen are ready to play by the middle of October or early November.

Coaches did not want to burn a year of eligibility on just 2 or 3 games, so they did not play them even if they were ready to go and could contribute. This would change that and the long time starters and veterans will get a little help late in the season when they are all black and bruised.

BUT, like I said in another post. If the NCAA does not expand the rosters for playoff participation, this will not help the playoff teams when they need it most.

I really hope the NCAA increases the amount of players that can be on the roster. In fact, I say that if teams can split 63 scholarships among 85 players, than they should at a minimum allow all of those 85 players to travel and dress. The plane is going anyway, they may as well fill it with players.

[MplsBison]

Beano is bringing this up again. He'll probably bring it up every year until they pass it or he passes, lol!

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/index (look for it in the top right, football videos)


His deal is that medical redshirts get abolished and higher graduation rates are enforced in return for 5 years of eligibility. The only exception would be a 5th year senior who suffers an injury that would cause him to miss the entire year.



I like the idea and I hope it gets passed soon.

[bonarae]

Of course, there's the people who feel that football is already too far apart from the rest of the university and has developed into a de facto pro sports league with no real connection to the university for whom they supposedly play. Granted, FBS football is already past that point anyway, so going to 5 years of eligibility is probably a no brainer - heck, they'll be paying them pretty soon anyway. Wouldn't be shocked that with a 5 year eligibility they could even lower the amount of credits a person needs to take in order to be eligible. Doesn't mean it's a good thing and it doesn't mean any level other than FBS will adpot it, and truth be told, this is far from the sure thing you make it out to be. Time will tell of course.

That's probably the reason why the Ivy Presidents pulled us out of the bowls and later the road to Chattanooga, which we have never been to. :( At the time the League was formed in 1956, football was on its way to becoming too commercialized by the NFL. And for this same reason (focus on academics), there is no redshirting in ANY sport in the Ivy League. But some of our players are granted a 5th year for some reasons (Chris Pizzotti will start at QB for the Crimson this year, even if O'Hagan graduated already.)

I think only the FBS will adopt the five-year rule because there are schools here in the FCS that are against it (e.g. Patriot League, Ivies).

[UD77]

Doesn't a Red Shirt keep his scholarship for the redshirt year? If true then this change only means that a player could actually play five years. The cost to the school is the same, 63 scholarships.

[andy7171]

Doesn't a Red Shirt keep his scholarship for the redshirt year? If true then this change only means that a player could actually play five years. The cost to the school is the same, 63 scholarships.

Correct. And if a player graduates on time in 4 years, his last year of scholarship would cover Grad School course work. A couple teammates of mine did took that route, I thought 12 credits pre semester was just enought for my brain. :D

[DFW HOYA]

Correct. And if a player graduates on time in 4 years, his last year of scholarship would cover Grad School course work.

This assumes that the player could be admitted to grad school, not always a sure thing. Of course, some I-AA schools don't even have a grad school option.

Bottom line, what works for McNeese might not work at Colgate, and vice versa. But some schools will use it and others will not.