Which Conference Title is The Hardest to Win?

[elcid96]

Big Sky

Colonial

Gateway

Great West

MEAC

Northeast

Ohio Valley

Patriot

Southern

Southland

[DetroitFlyer]

The Pioneer Football League, hands down!

[Tilldog40]

I'm gonna go with the gateway, Colonial, and Southern as the toughest to win. I think those 3 are very tough conferences top to bottom.

[Dane96]

All in all, I think the CAA has the most depth from top-to-bottom, hence making it the toughest title to win. The sheer amount of teams is also a reason.

And no, this is not E. Coast bias.

I would put the Gateway as a close second.

[TheBisonator]

It would be the Gateway, hands down, with the Dakota schools now in.

The Gateway could seriously be considered the 9th or 10th best football conference in all divisions.

[AZGrizFan]

Big Sky

Colonial

Gateway

Great West

MEAC

Northeast

Ohio Valley

Patriot

Southern

Southland

Only for teams not named "Montana". xlolx xlolx xlolx


I voted Gateway. Always seems like there's 4-5 teams who could be #1 in that conference.

[danefan]

CAA definitely.

Tough teams and.......you have to rely on a coin-toss.xlolx

[AZGrizFan]

CAA definitely.

Tough teams and.......you have to rely on a coin-toss.xlolx


Ouch. :D

[gophoenix]

No offense, but any conference that doesn't havea full round robin shouldn't be an option. It's not a real title unless you test yourself against everyone.

[elcid96]

No offense, but any conference that doesn't havea full round robin shouldn't be an option. It's not a real title unless you test yourself against everyone.

You bring up a good point. How can you know for sure you are best, if you don't play the rest.xrolleyesx

[danefan]

You bring up a good point. How can you know for sure you are best, if you don't play the rest.xrolleyesx

Duh silly......you flip a coin.xthumbsupx

[citdog]

It would be the Gateway, hands down, with the Dakota schools now in.

The Gateway could seriously be considered the 9th or 10th best football conference in all divisions.


PERHAPS Y'ALL SHOULD WAIT TO PLAY A MEANINGFUL DOWN IN THE FCS BEFORE MAKING THAT CLAIM?

[Ivytalk]

All in all, I think the CAA has the most depth from top-to-bottom, hence making it the toughest title to win. The sheer amount of teams is also a reason.

And no, this is not E. Coast bias.

I would put the Gateway as a close second.

Agreed about the CAA. I might put SoCon in 2nd.

[elcid96]

It would be the Gateway, hands down, with the Dakota schools now in.

The Gateway could seriously be considered the 9th or 10th best football conference in all divisions.

A little early to be talking smack, seeing that you not played in the conference before.xrulesx

[SoCon48]

All in all, I think the CAA has the most depth from top-to-bottom, hence making it the toughest title to win. The sheer amount of teams is also a reason.

And no, this is not E. Coast bias.

I would put the Gateway as a close second.

I'd have to say the CAA and the Southern. App won both of them last year.xeyebrowx

A nod to the SoCon. ASU lost 2 SoCon games last year and no CAA losses.

[JMU2K_DukeDawg]

I agree Dane, and all you have to do is look at past champions. The list is a veritable smorgasbord of great football teams over the years:

07 - UMass / UR
06 - UMass
05 - UNH / UR
04 - UD / JMU / W&M
03 - UD / UMass
02 - NU / Maine
01 - Villanova / UR / Hofstra / W&M
00 - UD / UR
99 - JMU / UMass
98 - UR
97 - Villanova
96 - W&M
95 - UD
94 - UNH
93 - Boston U
92 - UD
91 - UD / Villanova / UNH
90 - UMass
Etc.

And even URI won it a couple times in the 80s! ('81,'84,and '85)

[JMU2K_DukeDawg]

And Richmond beat Wofford and Hofstra beat Furman... blah blah blah... that is not what this thread is about.

[OL FU]

For the last three years the toughest hands down has been the SoCon unless your name is Appalachian State. xnodx



So kudos to Woffordxthumbsupx

[mcveyrl]

I actually went with Gateway because of the issue of consistency mentioned above, but the top three by far are the Colonial, Gateway and Southern.

For those that have mentioned the CAA's scheduling format, please keep in mind that the number of teams has a bearing on HOW you win, not necessarily the difficulty in winning. But, depending on who you draw (if you're in the North:D ), it could have a bearing on difficulty.

[stevdock]

Only for teams not named "Montana". xlolx xlolx xlolx


I voted Gateway. Always seems like there's 4-5 teams who could be #1 in that conference.

I was gonna say Big Sky too if you weren't Montana. I think also the CAA because you can only control getting a share. You have to hope for some help to win the conference outright.

[elcid96]

Same for the SOCON

1990 Furman 6 1 0 .857
1991 Appalachian State 6 1 0 .857
1992 The Citadel 6 1 0 .857
1993 Georgia Southern 7 1 0 .875
1994 Marshall 7 1 0 .875
1995 Appalachian State 8 0 0 1.000
1996 Marshall 8 0 0 1.000
1997 Georgia Southern 7 1 0 .875
1998 Georgia Southern 8 0 0 1.000
1999 Furman 7 1 0 .875
Georgia Southern 7 1 0 .875
& Appalachian State 7 1 0 .875
2000 Georgia Southern 7 1 0 .875
2001 Georgia Southern & 7 1 0 .875
Furman 7 1 0 .875
2002 Georgia Southern 7 1 0 .875
2003 Wofford 8 0 0 1.000
2004 Furman 6 1 0 .857
Georgia Southern 6
2005 Appalachian State 6-1-0
2006 Appalachian State 7-0-0
2007 Wofford / Appalachian State 5-2-0

The difference is that we didn't use a coin to determine the overall winner.

[elcid96]

I found this on Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Conference

The SoCon is considered one of the strongest football conferences in the Football Championship Subdivision, and is considered a mid-major conference in basketball. It has also garnered considerable national attention from its recent success in these sports: in particular, from the now three-peat Division I-FCS champion Appalachian State Mountaineers, who stunned the #5 Michigan Wolverines 34-32 on September 1, 2007; and from the Davidson Wildcats, who reached the Elite Eight in the 2008 NCAA Men's Basketball Tournament by upsetting power programs Gonzaga, Georgetown and Wisconsin. --

[OL FU]

I found this on Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Conference

The SoCon is considered one of the strongest football conferences in the Football Championship Subdivision, and is considered a mid-major conference in basketball. It has also garnered considerable national attention from its recent success in these sports: in particular, from the now three-peat Division I-FCS champion Appalachian State Mountaineers, who stunned the #5 Michigan Wolverines 34-32 on September 1, 2007; and from the Davidson Wildcats, who reached the Elite Eight in the 2008 NCAA Men's Basketball Tournament by upsetting power programs Gonzaga, Georgetown and Wisconsin. --

Well Damn it must be true thenxwhistlex

[OL FU]

The question isn't who is the strongest from top to bottom. The question isn't which conference has the most different champions. The question is which is the hardest to win and with the conference champion winning three national championships in a row, the answer is about as obvious as you can get unless you won't to spin your life away. xnodx


SoCon

[Dane96]

No...you are interpreting facts to support your argument ;)

National Titles are great and an indicator of the best team, however that is NOT THE OPERATIVE FACT FOR THE QUESTION.

The question is: which is the TOUGHEST CONFERENCE TO WIN. IMHO, that relies on a simplistic fact-- week in and week out...the team that WON THE CHAMPIONSHIP (or hopes to win it)...how must they perform against their conference mates.

Now, IMHO, the CAA is a much bigger battle from the last to first place team each week than any other conference. In fact, you can arguably say, one of the NON-TITLE contending conferences could get the nod here.

Why? Parity.

This question comes down to parity-- which conference has the toughest PARITY. How many losses could that first place team actually have. It is easy to say, "It is hard to win X conference because the best team is unstoppable." That, however, doesnt tell the whole story. IN fact, you can use the same argument to say the conference is weak.

[CharlestonAppFan]

The title of this thread is hardest to win, so I interpret this as it's literal meaning. The CAA is the hardest IMO because you can have teams finish with the same record in each of the two divisions. This leaves no one really knowing who is better than the other, mainly because they haven't played all the teams in the conference.....does someone smell BCS? xeyebrowx xsmiley_wix Who determines the title? I thought the FCS's montra is deciding it's champions on the field... xeyebrowx xlolx not among it's athletic department chairs or dare I say, a coin?

Come on now my CAA bretheren, this isn't meant to be smack. But if a team can't play every other team in the entire conference, how can anyone decide or really say they are the best? xrulesx

[JMU2K_DukeDawg]

I agree Charleston App.

You'll probably see some interesting changes in the CAA in the coming years given that Georgia St. and ODU will be joining in football (already in basketball).

These pissing matches really do get old though, yet we have the same threads and arguments year after year. Guess you have to do something this time of year if you're a football fan.

[OL FU]

No...you are interpreting facts to support your argument ;)

National Titles are great and an indicator of the best team, however that is NOT THE OPERATIVE FACT FOR THE QUESTION.

The question is: which is the TOUGHEST CONFERENCE TO WIN. IMHO, that relies on a simplistic fact-- week in and week out...the team that WON THE CHAMPIONSHIP (or hopes to win it)...how must they perform against their conference mates.

Now, IMHO, the CAA is a much bigger battle from the last to first place team each week than any other conference. In fact, you can arguably say, one of the NON-TITLE contending conferences could get the nod here.

Why? Parity.

This question comes down to parity-- which conference has the toughest PARITY. How many losses could that first place team actually have. It is easy to say, "It is hard to win X conference because the best team is unstoppable." That, however, doesnt tell the whole story. IN fact, you can use the same argument to say the conference is weak.

Not at all you are making the simple complicated.

IF we agree that the NC is the best team in the country then the odds of any team outside of a Southern Conference team winning the SoCon championship is practically nil, therefore it is the toughest to win. It is really quite simple:D

[mcveyrl]

The title of this thread is hardest to win, so I interpret this as it's literal meaning. The CAA is the hardest IMO because you can have teams finish with the same record in each of the two divisions. This leaves no one really knowing who is better than the other, mainly because they haven't played all the teams in the conference.....does someone smell BCS? xeyebrowx xsmiley_wix Who determines the title? I thought the FCS's montra is deciding it's champions on the field... xeyebrowx xlolx not among it's athletic department chairs or dare I say, a coin?



So if you're not the conference champ, you shouldn't be in the playoffsxeyebrowx xeyebrowx ? I mean, if the conference champ is decided on the field, why let anybody else from the conference in?

I agree that the CAA's hard and not really a conference champ, but the fact of the matter is, and a few UD posters have convinced me of this (gawd that was hard to say), it really doesn't matter. You think UD cared that they weren't the conference champion last year? The bottom line is that you're going to get into the playoffs if you're even involved in "the coin flip." Then you get to decide it on the field.

[SideLine Shooter]

Not at all you are making the simple complicated.

IF we agree that the NC is the best team in the country then the odds of any team outside of a Southern Conference team winning the SoCon championship is practically nil, therefore it is the toughest to win. It is really quite simple:D

That makes perfect sense. How could it be construed any other way?xnodx xnodx

[OL FU]

That makes perfect sense. How could it be construed any other way?xnodx xnodx

And if you look at it any other way, then the PFL probably has an argument. They fly all over the country and at least a few teams are competitive in the conference. But then again looking at that way who gives a crap. Pick a SoCon or CAA team at random, put them in that conference and you have the new PFL champion. That does not define difficulty to me. If that is the standard, then I will take the MAAC cause no body can with itxlolx

[Dane96]

Not at all you are making the simple complicated.

IF we agree that the NC is the best team in the country then the odds of any team outside of a Southern Conference team winning the SoCon championship is practically nil, therefore it is the toughest to win. It is really quite simple:D

AH HA Watson- Here is where we disagree! While GENERALLY the National Champ is the best team in the country (and clearly UD and Appy have really taken people to the shed in recent years), it is NOT A GIVEN that the National Champ winner would be the best team in the nation.

Generally...yes...and that is why we have playoffs, however if Colgate had upset Delaware, I doubt anyone would say they were clearly the best team in the nation. Congrats to them...but many would have questioned if they were truly the best team.

And what about two evenly matched teams in the title game...one of which didnt win their conference title.

[OL FU]

AH HA Watson- Here is where we disagree! While GENERALLY the National Champ is the best team in the country (and clearly UD and Appy have really taken people to the shed in recent years), it is NOT A GIVEN that the National Champ winner would be the best team in the nation.

Generally...yes...and that is why we have playoffs, however if Colgate had upset Delaware, I doubt anyone would say they were clearly the best team in the nation. Congrats to them...but many would have questioned if they were truly the best team.

And what about two evenly matched teams in the title game...one of which didnt win their conference title.

We can have that argument all day but that is why we have the playoffs. Whether or not you think the nc is the best team in the country or not is unimportant, we deem them to be so. Otherwise, the point is moot.

And I qualified my statement for the last three years so the question of a nc that is not a conference champion does not apply

[Dane96]

I am just being lawyer like here.

But...you have taken your own argument out of the equation-- if you take out the WINNER OF THE NATIONAL TITLE GAME as the weighted factor in choosing the "winner" of this poll, you then have to look at the "toughness" or "SOS" of the conferences. Overall, I argue that the teams in the CAA are more evenly matched....but more important, they are evenly matched at a VERY HIGH LEVEL.

I think the bottom of the Gateway and Southern are not quite as strong. I feel Appy and other top tier teams can waltz into a lower Southern Conference team's house and come out unscathed.

I do not feel the same about the CAA teams.

Either way...this is a silly argument...all three (Gateway, Southern, CAA) conferences are very tough.

[OL FU]

I am just being lawyer like here.

But...you have taken your own argument out of the equation-- if you take out the WINNER OF THE NATIONAL TITLE GAME as the weighted factor in choosing the "winner" of this poll, you then have to look at the "toughness" or "SOS" of the conferences. Overall, I argue that the teams in the CAA are more evenly matched....but more important, they are evenly matched at a VERY HIGH LEVEL.

I think the bottom of the Gateway and Southern are not quite as strong. I feel Appy and other top tier teams can waltz into a lower Southern Conference team's house and come out unscathed.

I do not feel the same about the CAA teams.

Either way...this is a silly argument...all three (Gateway, Southern, CAA) conferences are very tough.

IT is a silly argument that is why we are having it. Who can talk Presidential politics all day. But to continue the logical argument ( I am obviously not a lawyer) you have to go back to the question. Which conference is the hardest to win. Not which is the most competitive, which is the most balance, simply the hardest to win and given the facts and circumstances of the last three years, unless you are ASU, for any team in the FCS, the answer is the SoCon.

If you want to change the argument to parity among the top teams, I would say year in and year out the CAA with the Gateway making a good argument the last few years. That isn't the question. For the last three years, every other FCS team has been bested by the SoCon Champ and therefore winning that title is the most difficult.

[OL FU]

I am just being lawyer like here.

But...you have taken your own argument out of the equation-- if you take out the WINNER OF THE NATIONAL TITLE GAME as the weighted factor in choosing the "winner" of this poll, you then have to look at the "toughness" or "SOS" of the conferences. Overall, I argue that the teams in the CAA are more evenly matched....but more important, they are evenly matched at a VERY HIGH LEVEL.

I think the bottom of the Gateway and Southern are not quite as strong. I feel Appy and other top tier teams can waltz into a lower Southern Conference team's house and come out unscathed.

I do not feel the same about the CAA teams.

Either way...this is a silly argument...all three (Gateway, Southern, CAA) conferences are very tough.


PS, As I said I am not a lawyer but I have had lots of "discussions" with many of them. I can't be the lawyer and argue both sides, but the dog with a bone analogy works for me when I think I am rightxthumbsupx

[bluehenbillk]

I don't even think it's close - the CAA is the strongest league from top to bottom. 12 teams & soon to be more... the Southern is close but let's face it, it's a top-heavy league & has always been so. The others are the same old subjects xwhistlex Montana - Big Sky xwhistlex or bottom feeder leagues.

[mcveyrl]

IT is a silly argument that is why we are having it. Who can talk Presidential politics all day. But to continue the logical argument ( I am obviously not a lawyer) you have to go back to the question. Which conference is the hardest to win. Not which is the most competitive, which is the most balance, simply the hardest to win and given the facts and circumstances of the last three years, unless you are ASU, for any team in the FCS, the answer is the SoCon.

If you want to change the argument to parity among the top teams, I would say year in and year out the CAA with the Gateway making a good argument the last few years. That isn't the question. For the last three years, every other FCS team has been bested by the SoCon Champ and therefore winning that title is the most difficult.

I follow what you're saying, and it makes sense, but didn't Wofford win the SoCon over ASU last year? Then lost in the first round of the playoffs. So, I don't know that the fact that the national champion is in your conference necessarily makes it the toughest to win if Wofford pulled it off (no offense to Wofford fans).

[OL FU]

I follow what you're saying, and it makes sense, but didn't Wofford win the SoCon over ASU last year? Then lost in the first round of the playoffs. So, I don't know that the fact that the national champion is in your conference necessarily makes it the toughest to win if Wofford pulled it off (no offense to Wofford fans).

They lost in the second round. The were co-champions which is why I gave the kudos. One of only three FCS teams to beat ASU in the last three years. Wofford GaSouthern and Furmanxsmiley_wix No JMUs, No UDs and No UMass:D

[Dane96]

Thank you. mcveyrl gets the booby prize.

Set and match.

The operative fact IS PARITY. The team that wins more games wins the title (or flips a coin for it ;) ).

So...in a conference HAS MORE PARITY AND HAS BETTER TEAMS THAN AVERAGE NATIONALLY (as a whole conference...based on SOS)...then you have your toughest league.

Arguably, the CAA is going to be 6-8 teams who, depending on breaks and wins in mid-season, could quite possibly be the Conference champ.

Whereas, I argue the Southern is not so as deep...consistently. So, yeah, the top-4 teams in the Southern are very strong...but they are much stronger than the bottom. You are not going to find as many teams who have a LEGIT shot at the title.

Now, you can say any conference that has parity fits the bill, however that is false; It is not simply parity that makes it tougher to win the title, it is the additional aspect of SOS compared to a national average.

[OL FU]

I don't even think it's close - the CAA is the strongest league from top to bottom. 12 teams & soon to be more... the Southern is close but let's face it, it's a top-heavy league & has always been so. The others are the same old subjects xwhistlex Montana - Big Sky xwhistlex or bottom feeder leagues.

Another one that didn't read the questionxlolx

[james_lawfirm]

For the last three years the toughest hands down has been the SoCon unless your name is Appalachian State. xnodx



So kudos to Woffordxthumbsupx


OL FU:

It has not been exactly the cakewalk for ASU either!!!

[AppGrad06]

I said Southern, because of the way conference play went this past season, with what like 6 of 8 teams in the hunt down the stretch. their was no 1 or 2 dominate teams. Now had this been last year my answer might have been different.

[Dane96]

Sorry OL...reading the question and interpreting it as the writer meant it are two completely different acts.

I think, and the author would have to correct me if I am wrong, the question asks "Over a full-season...what is the toughest route to a title." Arguably, the toughest route is where you have the Champ of a conference who quite possibly HAVE LOST EACH AND EVERY WEEK IT PLAYED.

[mcveyrl]

They lost in the second round. The were co-champions which is why I gave the kudos. One of only three FCS teams to beat ASU in the last three years. Wofford GaSouthern and Furmanxsmiley_wix No JMUs, No UDs and No UMass:D

That hurts...that really, really hurts...xbawlingx

I had the Montana game reversed in my head (thinking that Montana made the field goal or Wofford missed one, I don't know what I was thinking). Anyway, I don't know how the SoCon does it, but isn't Wofford the champion by virtue of beating App. in the regular season?

Regardless, I think that shows that the premise of your argument is a little off since having the national champion in your conference does not mean that the national champion will win the conference. But, I do get what you're saying.

[OL FU]

Sorry OL...reading the question and interpreting it as the writer meant it are two completely different acts.

I think, and the author would have to correct me if I am wrong, the question asks "Over a full-season...what is the toughest route to a title." Arguably, the toughest route is where you have the Champ of a conference who quite possibly HAVE LOST EACH AND EVERY WEEK IT PLAYED.

effing lawyersxlolx Don't go pulling a different contract on me nowxlolx


What thread are you reading? All he did was list the conferences in the first post and the questions is immediately above in the title of the thread.

[aust42]

Isn't there a 48 page Homer Thread every couple months arguing about who the toughest conference is?

It's the CAA hands down!!

[gophoenix]

I don't even think it's close - the CAA is the strongest league from top to bottom. 12 teams & soon to be more... the Southern is close but let's face it, it's a top-heavy league & has always been so. The others are the same old subjects xwhistlex Montana - Big Sky xwhistlex or bottom feeder leagues.

There isn't enough play of the CAA against other I-AA leagues for that to be an accurate statement.

In fact, there isn't enough play between the CAA, SoCon and Gateway period to say who is better. In fact, the CAA has such a small sample set to measure against the rest of I-AA. They play 9 conference games, then most play a I-A. So you end up with 12 teams basically playing one measuring stick game against all the rest of I-AA, counting the NEC.

That's not enough to measure the CAA as being better top to bottom or not at all.

The SoCon and Gateway not only play each other in conference, of which the last two years have been relatively close with more than just the handful of "top" teams.... they also get a wider sample set with the rest of I-AA with 3-4 OOC games against I-A, DII and I-AA opponents.

Having 12 teams doesn't mean anything, and adding more means even less. Especially since one team doesn't play every other every year now, so adding more only further dilutes and confuses matters.

[OL FU]

That hurts...that really, really hurts...xbawlingx

I had the Montana game reversed in my head (thinking that Montana made the field goal or Wofford missed one, I don't know what I was thinking). Anyway, I don't know how the SoCon does it, but isn't Wofford the champion by virtue of beating App. in the regular season?

Regardless, I think that shows that the premise of your argument is a little off since having the national champion in your conference does not mean that the national champion will win the conference. But, I do get what you're saying.

Nope they were co-champions. Wofford got the auto bid but as far as the conference is concerned they are co-champions. and the answer to your question is .....................NO:)

[AppGrad06]

All in all, I think the CAA has the most depth from top-to-bottom, hence making it the toughest title to win. The sheer amount of teams is also a reason.

And no, this is not E. Coast bias.

I would put the Gateway as a close second.

I feels like with the number of teams you guys have, you need to have a title game between the CAA south and north teams with the best record.

...and YES I know this is not actually feasible since we go straight into playoffs.

[OL FU]

Isn't there a 48 page Homer Thread every couple months arguing about who the toughest conference is?

It's the CAA hands down!!

The questions wasn't which conference is the toughest. READ THE QUESTION

[Dane96]

I feels like with the number of teams you guys have, you need to have a title game between the CAA south and north teams with the best record.

...and YES I know this is not actually feasible since we go straight into playoffs.


I am giddy now. HEY...UALUM...Danefan...Ruler...we are in the CAA now....maybe we can get a stadium.xsmiley_wix

Ummmmm....Albany plays in the NEC...but you are definitely on my Christmas card list.xthumbsupx

[mcveyrl]

There isn't enough play of the CAA against other I-AA leagues for that to be an accurate statement.

In fact, there isn't enough play between the CAA, SoCon and Gateway period to say who is better. In fact, the CAA has such a small sample set to measure against the rest of I-AA. They play 9 conference games, then most play a I-A. So you end up with 12 teams basically playing one measuring stick game against all the rest of I-AA, counting the NEC.

That's not enough to measure the CAA as being better top to bottom or not at all.

The SoCon and Gateway not only play each other in conference, of which the last two years have been relatively close with more than just the handful of "top" teams.... they also get a wider sample set with the rest of I-AA with 3-4 OOC games against I-A, DII and I-AA opponents.

Having 12 teams doesn't mean anything, and adding more means even less. Especially since one team doesn't play every other every year now, so adding more only further dilutes and confuses matters.

Just so you know, the CAA plays 8 conference games and has 3-4 OOC. JMU's OOC schedule this year includes Duke, ASU and North Carolina Central.

Also, what does the bolded section mean? EDIT: Nevermind. I see what you're saying.

[CharlestonAppFan]

So if you're not the conference champ, you shouldn't be in the playoffsxeyebrowx xeyebrowx ? I mean, if the conference champ is decided on the field, why let anybody else from the conference in?

I agree that the CAA's hard and not really a conference champ, but the fact of the matter is, and a few UD posters have convinced me of this (gawd that was hard to say), it really doesn't matter. You think UD cared that they weren't the conference champion last year? The bottom line is that you're going to get into the playoffs if you're even involved in "the coin flip." Then you get to decide it on the field.

I don't think I stated or implied that nor was the point of my argument xeyebrowx . I think the basis of this is the conference title and not a discussion of the playoffs and who's in or out. That's for another debate...(see below)

IMO, I don't think that the CAA should crown a true champion or say they have a true champion xsmhx without:
1) a championship game between the two divisions
or
2) each team playing against one another

But neither will occur because there is no need in the FCS for a conference championship and the CAA is way to large to have everybody play each other. Until this happens, the conference will continue to get 4-6 teams a year into the playoffs, which dramatically increases the odds of a CAA team reaching the finals every year.

Your superconference impedes on some of the other team's chances (such as in the SoCon, Gateway, and Big Sky) of making it into the playoffs, which IMO, is part (not all) of the reason it is expanding in the next few years. Until then, do any of you think these teams that are borderline in the CAA deserve a playoff invite? As opposed to other schools who have to challenge the dominant teams in their conference every year? Even though in some years, some teams in the CAA have more of an advantage because they don't play the true contenders? xcoffeex Just a thought....

[Dane96]

effing lawyersxlolx Don't go pulling a different contract on me nowxlolx


What thread are you reading? All he did was list the conferences in the first post and the questions is immediately above in the title of the thread.

Ok...let's try to make this easier. The question is: Which conference title is hardest to win. Conversely, the question implies that the toughest conference to win also cannot be the easiest to get through. They mirror each other.


Delaware
at William and Mary
Rhode Island
at Towson
at 14 New Hampshire
Northeastern
at #12 JMU
#5 Richmond
at #26 Villanova

ASU
at #6 Wofford
at #23 Elon
#17 Georgia Southern
at Furman
at @27 The Citadel
Western Carolina
Chattanooga

Arguable, but a wash.

[OL FU]

Ok...let's try to make this easier. The question is: Which conference title is hardest to win. Conversely, the question implies that the toughest conference to win also cannot be the easiest to get through. They mirror each other.


Delaware
at William and Mary
Rhode Island
at Towson
at 14 New Hampshire
Northeastern
at #12 JMU
#5 Richmond
at #26 Villanova

ASU
at #6 Wofford
at #23 Elon
#17 Georgia Southern
at Furman
at @27 The Citadel
Western Carolina
Chattanooga

Arguable, but a wash.

But the argument is which is the toughest to WIN. Realizing we can cry without proof that the national champion is not the best team, put Delaware in the SoCon and ASU is still the champion, put JMU in the Socon and App is still the champion and based on the playoff results, put APP in the CAA and App is the champion.

I will say it again, you want to post a thread on which conference is the best from top to bottom I agree it is the CAA ( although I still argue who cares about the bottom except for the teams that are there) but the hardest to win is a specific argument and the facts of the last three years make it clear to all except the hardheaded or the homer. :D


SOCON

[UMass922]

Come on now my CAA bretheren, this isn't meant to be smack. But if a team can't play every other team in the entire conference, how can anyone decide or really say they are the best? xrulesx

I don't think any honest CAA fan will disagree with you on this. The unbalanced schedule absolutely does diminish the meaning of the conference championship. Personally I don't take much stock in UMass's CAA title last year, because we didn't have to play some of the best teams: Delaware, Richmond, and James Madison.

The only problem some of us have is when people use the unbalanced schedule to disparage the quality of the CAA in general. Our conference has produced three different national champions in the last ten years; that speaks for itself. (Not saying that makes the CAA the hardest conference to win; I'm abstaining from answering the poll question.)

[89Hen]

(Big Sky) Only for teams not named "Montana". xlolx xlolx xlolx


CAA definitely.

Tough teams and.......you have to rely on a coin-toss.xlolx
Bingo x 2. Again, thinking the same thing as AZ. And in the CAA you can face up to five ranked teams, go undefeated, and still not win the conference. How much tougher can it get? :p

[89Hen]

But the argument is which is the toughest to WIN. Realizing we can cry without proof that the national champion is not the best team, put Delaware in the SoCon and ASU is still the champion, put JMU in the Socon and App is still the champion and based on the playoff results, put APP in the CAA and App is the champion.
This may be nitpicking, but App State did not win the SoCon last year so your point is kinda lost. xeyebrowx

[mcveyrl]

I thought the FCS's montra is deciding it's champions on the field... xeyebrowx xlolx not among it's athletic department chairs or dare I say, a coin?



I don't think I stated or implied that nor was the point of my argument xeyebrowx .

IMO, I don't think that the CAA should crown a true champion or say they have a true champion xsmhx without:
1) a championship game between the two divisions
or
2) each team playing against one another

But neither will occur because there is no need in the FCS for a conference championship and the CAA is way to large to have everybody play each other. Until this happens, the conference will continue to get 4-6 teams a year into the playoffs, which dramatically increases the odds of a CAA team reaching the finals every year.

Your superconference impedes on some of the other team's chances (such as in the SoCon, Gateway, and Big Sky) of making it into the playoffs, which IMO, is part (not all) of the reason it is expanding in the next few years. Until then, do any of you think these teams that are borderline in the CAA deserve a playoff invite? As opposed to other schools who have to challenge the dominant teams in their conference every year? Even though in some years, some teams in the CAA have more of an advantage because they don't play the true contenders? xcoffeex Just a thought....

First of all, your previous post did imply that. You stated that the FCS mantra was to decide it on the field, implying that the conference champion was, without a doubt, as decided on the field, the best team in the conference. By that reasoning, to let anybody other than Wofford have a chance at the national championship is an afront to their conference championship.

But, as this thread has revealed, Wofford, despite "winning it on the field" was not the SoCon Champion, they were the co-champion. So, the SoCon was not better than the CAA last year in "crowning" a champion.

As far as your last two paragraphs, the amount of teams in the playoffs has nothing to do with conference champions. I will grant you that the more teams in your conference the more you will catch a down team, but that could also work to your detriment. UNH played Delaware, Richmond and JMU from the South last year. That probably helped. But if they go 4-4 in the CAA and play Towson, Villanova and W&M, they are probably out.

[OL FU]

I don't think any honest CAA fan will disagree with you on this. The unbalanced schedule absolutely does diminish the meaning of the conference championship. Personally I don't take much stock in UMass's CAA title last year, because we didn't have to play some of the best teams: Delaware, Richmond, and James Madison.

The only problem some of us have is when people use the unbalanced schedule to disparage the quality of the CAA in general. Our conference has produced three different national champions in the last ten years; that speaks for itself. (Not saying that makes the CAA the hardest conference to win; I'm abstaining from answering the poll question.)

An Honest Poster. His point should be read and comprehended. And I will firmly state that I agree that the unbalanced schedule should not diminish the quality of the CAA which is truly a power conference in every sense of the word.

I repeat that the question is about winning the conference championshipxnodx

[OL FU]

This may be nitpicking, but App State did not win the SoCon last year so your point is kinda lost. xeyebrowx

IT is nitpicking and you are wrong, they were co-champions:p

[Cap'n Cat]

SWAC.

[89Hen]

IT is nitpicking and you are wrong, they were co-champions:p

The automatic bids to conference champions were won by Delaware State (MEAC), Eastern Kentucky (Ohio Valley), Fordham (Patriot) McNeese State (Southland), Montana (Big Sky), Northern Iowa (Gateway), UMass (CAA) and Wofford (Southern).
xcoffeex :p

[OL FU]

xcoffeex :p

So whatxrolleyesx Look on the SoCon web site and it will tell you clearly Wofford and ASU were co-champions. When they hang the flag at Wofford it won't say SoCon champion and yeah we got the auto bidxrolleyesx

[CharlestonAppFan]

First of all, your previous post did imply that. You stated that the FCS mantra was to decide it on the field, implying that the conference champion was, without a doubt, as decided on the field, the best team in the conference. By that reasoning, to let anybody other than Wofford have a chance at the national championship is an afront to their conference championship.

But, as this thread has revealed, Wofford, despite "winning it on the field" was not the SoCon Champion, they were the co-champion. So, the SoCon was not better than the CAA last year in "crowning" a champion.

As far as your last two paragraphs, the amount of teams in the playoffs has nothing to do with conference champions. I will grant you that the more teams in your conference the more you will catch a down team, but that could also work to your detriment. UNH played Delaware, Richmond and JMU from the South last year. That probably helped. But if they go 4-4 in the CAA and play Towson, Villanova and W&M, they are probably out.

Sorry but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this. It was meant that if each of the CAA teams don't play each other on the field, how do you determine a true conference champion? I said nothing about the playoffs xconfusedx xconfusedx

The reason Wofford was not the outright champion is because they lost to teams ASU beat and vice versa. As you know, this happens very frequently, but the point is each team played each team. So yes, IMO, co-champions were "crowned" and deservedly so.

I agree with your last paragraph xnodx

[JayJ79]

They lost in the second round. The were co-champions which is why I gave the kudos. One of only three FCS teams to beat ASU in the last three years. Wofford GaSouthern and Furmanxsmiley_wix No JMUs, No UDs and No UMass:D

The official so-con press releases (http://www.soconsports.com/pdf4/97428.pdf?ATCLID=1178393&SPSID=31927&SPID=1781&DB_OEM_ID=4000) make no mention of co-champs. They list Wofford as the Southern Conference champion, and ASU as an at-large.

[elcid96]

SWAC.

Not eligible. Try a different message board. This board is for conferences that qualify for an automatic bidxrulesx xrulesx

[EKU05]

How is this question different from "which conference is the best?" If you get down to it since the teams are all competing within leagues that partially define what kinds of players and coaches they have access to then it would seem that, statistically, the hardest conference title to win would be whichever conference has the most teams...at least in a sense.

Or look at it this way...

Conference A might be a clearly better conference than Conference B. But the recruits and potential coaches know that, so it is inherently easier for teams in Conference A to collect quality personnel. Each team is competing directly agaisnt their peers within their own conference with various levels of resource availability. So in that sense what makes it any easier to win conference B than conference A? it's probably harder because you have to sell recruits on playing in a lesser league.

For my money the hardest conference to win probably is one like the PFL. In that league you don't have a scholarship offer to sell a player on...you have only your program, your school, and your staff. When you look at it that way it may be harder to build an PFL champ than an SEC champ.

[mcveyrl]

Sorry but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this. It was meant that if each of the CAA teams don't play each other on the field, how do you determine a true conference champion? I said nothing about the playoffs xconfusedx xconfusedx

The reason Wofford was not the outright champion is because they lost to teams ASU beat and vice versa. As you know, this happens very frequently, but the point is each team played each team. So yes, IMO, co-champions were "crowned" and deservedly so.
I agree with your last paragraph xnodx


Well, you know better what you meant, mine was just a misinterpretation.xthumbsupx FWIW, I agree that the CAA doesn't crown a true champion, but short of a championship game (which is not possible) I don't know what to do about it. Ultimately, the teams that are at the top (whether it's two or three) get into the playoffs.

But, on the last point, doesn't the crowning of co-champions operate kind of the same way as the problem in the CAA (in a different way)? It completely discounts Wofford's win over ASU.

[OL FU]

The official so-con press releases (http://www.soconsports.com/pdf4/97428.pdf?ATCLID=1178393&SPSID=31927&SPID=1781&DB_OEM_ID=4000) make no mention of co-champs. They list Wofford as the Southern Conference champion, and ASU as an at-large.

STandings if you can read them it is pretty clear
http://www.soconsports.com/standings/Standings.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4000&SPID=1781

The comment you mentioned was specifically related to the playoff where ASU was the at-large. But that is ok, you can think what you want. xnodx

[89Hen]

So whatxrolleyesx Look on the SoCon web site and it will tell you clearly Wofford and ASU were co-champions. When they hang the flag at Wofford it won't say SoCon champion and yeah we got the auto bidxrolleyesx
My point still stands. Wofford were the "co-champ" (even thought they beat App and got the auto xrolleyesx ) but lost to Richmond. So for you to say that any team from the CAA wouldn't win the SoCon... xeyebrowx

[AppGrad06]

I am just being lawyer like here.

But...you have taken your own argument out of the equation-- if you take out the WINNER OF THE NATIONAL TITLE GAME as the weighted factor in choosing the "winner" of this poll, you then have to look at the "toughness" or "SOS" of the conferences. Overall, I argue that the teams in the CAA are more evenly matched....but more important, they are evenly matched at a VERY HIGH LEVEL.

I think the bottom of the Gateway and Southern are not quite as strong. I feel Appy and other top tier teams can waltz into a lower Southern Conference team's house and come out unscathed.

I do not feel the same about the CAA teams.

Either way...this is a silly argument...all three (Gateway, Southern, CAA) conferences are very tough.


only problem is that by your own logic, which also happens to be how I made my choice, is that in the end only 3 out of 12 CAA teams where in contention (within one loss of the champs) where as the SoCon had 5 of 8 and the Patriot had 4 of 7. So based on this last year, which is the current state of the conferences, #1 and #2 would be the SoCon and Patriot and you could argue either one for the top difficulty spot.

[OL FU]

There are obviously two different ways of looking at this.

1) Each Conference stand alone considering all the teams in that conference and no other teams. That way you can debate all day and every conference will have their argument.

2) What if your team moved a different conference and competing therein. Clearly in that instance, the SoCon wins.

Now you may say number two is not practical because it isn't reality. But I would say number 1 is irrelevant. As I said before any Pee wee league could make the argument that we are the most competitive just don't make us play any one outside of our conference. If the SoCon wins number two and if 125 teams then would not win the SoCon because of number two, then the answer once again is clear. The SoCon is the hardest to win

[OL FU]

My point still stands. Wofford were the "co-champ" (even thought they beat App and got the auto xrolleyesx ) but lost to Richmond. So for you to say that any team from the CAA wouldn't win the SoCon... xeyebrowx

Your point stands on your head. Richmond did not get crowned the best team in the landxrolleyesx

[OL FU]

Homers and Hardheads. xlolx Gotta go but it was funxthumbsupx

[CharlestonAppFan]

Well, you know better what you meant, mine was just a misinterpretation.xthumbsupx FWIW, I agree that the CAA doesn't crown a true champion, but short of a championship game (which is not possible) I don't know what to do about it. Ultimately, the teams that are at the top (whether it's two or three) get into the playoffs.

But, on the last point, doesn't the crowning of co-champions operate kind of the same way as the problem in the CAA (in a different way)? It completely discounts Wofford's win over ASU.

I see what you're saying xthumbsupx but taking into cosideration their loss to Elon and App's win over Elon, does this factor into the equation? FYI, I don't think anything can be done about the current scheduling format of the CAA; just one of them thangs (like in Ohio State's case, who BTW isn't arguing over their format either xsmhx xlolx ) That's why these threads are so highly debated in the off-season...what else do we have to do?

[OL FU]

My point still stands. Wofford were the "co-champ" (even thought they beat App and got the auto xrolleyesx ) but lost to Richmond. So for you to say that any team from the CAA wouldn't win the SoCon... xeyebrowx

PS, just for yucks read the post from the auto bid winner in the CAA above. xthumbsupx A post of infinite significance in this threadxnodx

[AppGrad06]

IT is a silly argument that is why we are having it. Who can talk Presidential politics all day. But to continue the logical argument ( I am obviously not a lawyer) you have to go back to the question. Which conference is the hardest to win. Not which is the most competitive, which is the most balance, simply the hardest to win and given the facts and circumstances of the last three years, unless you are ASU, for any team in the FCS, the answer is the SoCon.

If you want to change the argument to parity among the top teams, I would say year in and year out the CAA with the Gateway making a good argument the last few years. That isn't the question. For the last three years, every other FCS team has been bested by the SoCon Champ and therefore winning that title is the most difficult.


I don't agree with your logic I agree with Dane's but by his logic the SoCon and PFL are the most difficult at for the past season which I think with so many teams transitioning and developing it is really only a fair estimate to look at the current state of things.

[AppGrad06]

I am giddy now. HEY...UALUM...Danefan...Ruler...we are in the CAA now....maybe we can get a stadium.xsmiley_wix

Ummmmm....Albany plays in the NEC...but you are definitely on my Christmas card list.xthumbsupx

oops. overlooked that but it was a largely meaningless post anyway... so oh well

[89Hen]

2) What if your team moved a different conference and competing therein. Clearly in that instance, the SoCon wins.

if 125 teams then would not win the SoCon because of number two, then the answer once again is clear. The SoCon is the hardest to win
IF, IF, IF... IF Wofford can WIN the SoCon last year, so can a bunch of other teams. xnutsx

[crunifan]

Gotta go with the Gateway.

I won't even consider the CAA considering they don't play everyone. Watching UMass breeze through and easy schedule and UNH playing a super tough schedule showed how unfair it can be for teams in the same conference.

[Saint3333]

This may be nitpicking, but App State did not win the SoCon last year so your point is kinda lost. xeyebrowx

Actually ASU did as others have said, but it appears that you are making a point for the SoCon, as ASU would have won the CAA as evidence of the playoff results.

[DTSpider]

I'd argue that if you were to separate the CAA into 2 conferences that the CAA South is just as tough as any conference in the country.

[Saint3333]

I'd argue that if you were to separate the CAA into 2 conferences that the CAA South is just as tough as any conference in the country.

Delaware is the only consistent winner of that group. Last year they were good, but I think you have to include the CAA North members to make a claim to the best FCS conference (UMass and UNH).

[JBB]

Bisonator sure doesnt talk for all BISON fans, but my question: where is the GWFC?

[patssle]

I bet a Texas State fan voted for SLC! :D

[Mouse]

wow 3 votes for the MEAC

[appmountaineer]

I'd say its a toss up between CAA and Southern, with Gateway close behind. I believe last year Southern and CAA looked equally as strong even though the CAA had more teams get in the playoffs. The SoCon teams just beat up on one another.

[aust42]

There isn't enough play of the CAA against other I-AA leagues for that to be an accurate statement.

In fact, there isn't enough play between the CAA, SoCon and Gateway period to say who is better. In fact, the CAA has such a small sample set to measure against the rest of I-AA. They play 9 conference games, then most play a I-A. So you end up with 12 teams basically playing one measuring stick game against all the rest of I-AA, counting the NEC.

That's not enough to measure the CAA as being better top to bottom or not at all.

The SoCon and Gateway not only play each other in conference, of which the last two years have been relatively close with more than just the handful of "top" teams.... they also get a wider sample set with the rest of I-AA with 3-4 OOC games against I-A, DII and I-AA opponents.

Having 12 teams doesn't mean anything, and adding more means even less. Especially since one team doesn't play every other every year now, so adding more only further dilutes and confuses matters.

What are you talking about?

The CAA plays 8 Conference games and 3 OOC games.

The CAA has played and continues to play the So Con and Gateway in reg season games as well as several other Conferences. For example, just noting the Gateway and So Con OOC games: Delaware has recently played G-Southern, The Citadel, Youngstown, and plays Furman next year. We also play South Dakota State in a couple years at Delaware. Northeastern has played North Dakota St and Youngstown. Maine has played Youngstown, North Dakota St. Hofstra has played Furman. W&M played Furman. JMU plays Ap St in the final home/home series this year.

Other than South Dakota St playing G-Southern last year when has the So Con and Gateway played each other in reg season games?

[Retro]

Actually the SLC is the toughest to win, because everyone in the conference is trying to dethrown Mcneese, which only happens about once every 4 years... xcoolx

So it is the toughest for 7 of the 8 teams.xrulesx

[JohnStOnge]

I'm gonna go with the gateway, Colonial, and Southern as the toughest to win. I think those 3 are very tough conferences top to bottom.

I think the Southern is less balanced than the other two. I do not think it is all that tough "top to bottom." The top teams are obviously very good, but I do not think the "average" strength of teams in the Southern is typically as good as that in the Colonial and Gateway.

[JohnStOnge]

Actually the SLC is the toughest to win, because everyone in the conference is trying to dethrown Mcneese, which only happens about once every 4 years... xcoolx

So it is the toughest for 7 of the 8 teams.xrulesx

Yeah, but then what do you say about the Big Sky with Montana?

[Skjellyfetti]

I think the conferences strength fluctuates. I think the CAA and Southern were definitely the best last year. Pretty tough to say either one was noticeably better than the other.

[Bison101]

The Gateway's team are all of high caliber, if you take out Indiana State, of course. NDSU, SDSU, UNI, WIU, SIU, Youngstown, Ill. St., Missouri St. All very top notch teams.

[appstate38]

I am bias just a little towards the SoCon..... But in all honesty all of them are tough because you have to bring it week in and week out. Conference championships are hard to win and they are supposed to be that way. Great topic.

[Tribe4SF]

The Gateway is certainly stepping up a notch by adding the *DSUs. I think it's now a toss-up between the Gateway and the CAA. As to the Socon, until Armanti Edwards leaves, it's a one team league. If he's hampered (witness last season), the rest of the league can compete. If he's 100%, forget it.

[Frosty The Snowbuff]

Duh silly......you flip a coin.xthumbsupx

For some reason I can't stop laughing about that.....

I"ll take tails....

[Frosty The Snowbuff]

Not eligible. Try a different message board. This board is for conferences that qualify for an automatic bidxrulesx xrulesx

Please tell me you knew he was being sarcastic......right

[SideLine Shooter]

The Gateway is certainly stepping up a notch by adding the *DSUs. I think it's now a toss-up between the Gateway and the CAA. As to the Socon, until Armanti Edwards leaves, it's a one team league. If he's hampered (witness last season), the rest of the league can compete. If he's 100%, forget it.

You make a lot of sense..xthumbsupx

[RadMann]

I think the fact that UD was arguably the 5th best team in the CAA last year during the regular season answers the question. It is the toughest conference top to bottom which makes winning the title the toughest task. That said, the conference with the best single team the last few years has been the SoCon.

[Tod]

Only for teams not named "Montana". xlolx xlolx xlolx


I voted Gateway. Always seems like there's 4-5 teams who could be #1 in that conference.

I agree, and voted the same.

[AZGrizFan]

Are you serious? There's 5 people who voted "Big Sky"?


Must be 'Cat fans. xwhistlex xwhistlex xwhistlex

[OL FU]

IF, IF, IF... IF Wofford can WIN the SoCon last year, so can a bunch of other teams. xnutsx

I didn't say it wasn't possible I said it was the hardest.

I have provided a reasonable, objective and to some degree measureable method of determining the toughest to win. When you provide something close to that I will listen to your argument

[elcid96]

Who voted for the OVC?

[Eyes of Old Main]

The CAA maybe be tougher top to bottom, but since you never play everyone, you might get all the good teams one year and miss a few the next. In the SoCon you play everyone, and while some of the bottom teams might not be as strong, I think the road games are tougher since, outside of Delaware, the CAA doesn't have anything comparable to visiting Appalachian or Georgia Southern.

[Eyes of Old Main]

Who voted for the OVC?

Someone who wanted to provide living proof that crack is still an epidemic in this country.

[jmu_duke07]

The CAA maybe be tougher top to bottom, but since you never play everyone, you might get all the good teams one year and miss a few the next. In the SoCon you play everyone, and while some of the bottom teams might not be as strong, I think the road games are tougher since, outside of Delaware, the CAA doesn't have anything comparable to visiting Appalachian or Georgia Southern.

That's erronous... JMU is one of the toughest places to play in FCS.

[Black Saturday]

I'm gonna go with the gateway, Colonial, and Southern as the toughest to win. I think those 3 are very tough conferences top to bottom.

How does a team truly win the CAA when not every team plays each other?xconfusedx

[stevdock]

I don't even think it's close - the CAA is the strongest league from top to bottom. 12 teams & soon to be more... the Southern is close but let's face it, it's a top-heavy league & has always been so. The others are the same old subjects xwhistlex Montana - Big Sky xwhistlex or bottom feeder leagues.

The Gateway is a bottom feeder leaguexeyebrowx

[stevdock]

What are you talking about?

The CAA plays 8 Conference games and 3 OOC games.

The CAA has played and continues to play the So Con and Gateway in reg season games as well as several other Conferences. For example, just noting the Gateway and So Con OOC games: Delaware has recently played G-Southern, The Citadel, Youngstown, and plays Furman next year. We also play South Dakota State in a couple years at Delaware. Northeastern has played North Dakota St and Youngstown. Maine has played Youngstown, North Dakota St. Hofstra has played Furman. W&M played Furman. JMU plays Ap St in the final home/home series this year.

Other than South Dakota St playing G-Southern last year when has the So Con and Gateway played each other in reg season games?

First the NDSU/Maine game was cancelled by 9/11 and never was made up. NDSU did go down to Georgia Southern and then they are scheduled to come back up in 2009. Also App. St and NDSU were probably going to play last year if Michigan didn't ask App. to come up to Michigan.

[ChickenMan]

The question isn't who is the strongest from top to bottom. The question isn't which conference has the most different champions. The question is which is the hardest to win and with the conference champion winning three national championships in a row, the answer is about as obvious as you can get unless you won't to spin your life away. xnodx


SoCon



maybe not... if the same team can win it three times in a row... :p

[TheValleyRaider]

Patriot League and Big South

Hardest conference to win is the one with the fewest teams. You must be asking yourself, now how could that be? Well, it's quite simple really: margin of error. In a smaller conference, you have none (or at least very little). Take last year's Big South for example. Liberty went undefeated to win the title. But what if they had tripped up against Coastal? Suddenly, Coastal wins the title. Heck, what if they had lost to someone else along they way? Suddenly, they're tied for the title. Look at the mess in the SoCon last year. So many teams losing games. Wofford lost to Georgia Southern and Elon? No big deal, they still at least tied for the crown. Let's go even farther, take the Great West. NDSU, Top 5 team all year long, 4-0 in the GWFC going into that last game against SDSU. Suddenly, they stumble. Rabbits win the game and the Conference title. And if they had lost along the way to someone else? Way out of the picture

Now, as we could only vote for one conference, I did the honorable thing and voted for my own :D

Any Big South fan is free to do similarly xsmiley_wix

[89Hen]

I didn't say it wasn't possible I said it was the hardest.
You clearly stated that no CAA teams, actually NO other teams, would win the SoCon last year as long as App was in the conference...

125 teams then would not win the SoCon because of number two, then the answer once again is clear. The SoCon is the hardest to win

put Delaware in the SoCon and ASU is still the champion, put JMU in the Socon and App is still the champion... put APP in the CAA and App is the champion.
Again. App didn't even win the SoCon outright, so how does it make sense that UD or JMU or UMass or Richmond wouldn't at least share the SoCon title? You point out App's playoff wins, but what about Richmond over your automatic bid winner Wofford? The fact is, ASU would have the same difficulty winning the CAA as they do the SoCon. ASU got JMU and UR at home and Chatty was darn close to a home game for them too. If App had to travel to two of UD, JMU, UMass, UR.... they may not have even shared the CAA title. Do you think Wofford would have won the CAA last year?

I have provided a reasonable, objective and to some degree measureable method of determining the toughest to win. When you provide something close to that I will listen to your argument
I thought I did in my first post...

in the CAA you can face up to five ranked teams, go undefeated, and still not win the conference. How much tougher can it get?
I wasn't really kidding about how much tougher can it get. Because of the absurd size of the CAA, you don't necessarily control your own destiny. That alone may make it the most difficult to actually win. Throw in the fact that over half the conference is in the top 25 plus receiving votes at any given time, you're most likely going to face 5-6 ranked teams each year...

[OL FU]

Bingo x 2. Again, thinking the same thing as AZ. And in the CAA you can face up to five ranked teams, go undefeated, and still not win the conference. How much tougher can it get? :p

Is this your first postxeyebrowx


How much tougher can it get?

By having to beat the best team in the country to win the conferencexnodx

[OL FU]

Again. App didn't even win the SoCon outright, so how does it make sense that UD or JMU or UMass or Richmond wouldn't at least share the SoCon title? You point out App's playoff wins, but what about Richmond over your automatic bid winner Wofford? The fact is, ASU would have the same difficulty winning the CAA as they do the SoCon. ASU got JMU and UR at home and Chatty was darn close to a home game for them too. If App had to travel to two of UD, JMU, UMass, UR.... they may not have even shared the CAA title. Do you think Wofford would have won the CAA last year?

Again, this is not about impossibilities. Anything is possible. Richmond might have shared the title with APP. But when your conference has the best team in the country and that team wins the conference three years in a row, the argument for which conference is the hardest to win is really quite silly. If you guys had beaten ASU last year and UMass the year before, there would be no discussion. But you didn't. The team that has sat atop FCS has also set atop the socon. That fact that Wofford was co-champion last year means only that Wofford should be congratulated. The team that has sat atop FCS sits atop the SoCon by themselves for two years and then a shared title for three makes it clear which one is the hardest to win. All arguments are hypothetical on this subject, but at least this argument has the merit of a cold heart fact. the best of FCS has been the best of the SoCon.

[OL FU]

I wasn't really kidding about how much tougher can it get. Because of the absurd size of the CAA, you don't necessarily control your own destiny. That alone may make it the most difficult to actually win. Throw in the fact that over half the conference is in the top 25 plus receiving votes at any given time, you're most likely going to face 5-6 ranked teams each year...

As UMass proved last year you do not have to face 5-6 ranked teams to win the CAAxeyebrowx

[Blue Hen Nation]

Probably between the Colonial and Gateway IMO.

[89Hen]

By having to beat the best team in the country to win the conferencexnodx
You don't. Somebody else can beat them for you. And AppSt was the best team in the country the last three years, but before that the CAA had the best team in the country 3 out of 7 years.

[OL FU]

You don't. Somebody else can beat them for you. And AppSt was the best team in the country the last three years, but before that the CAA had the best team in the country 3 out of 7 years.

And my initial premise was "the last three years"xnodx

[89Hen]

That fact that Wofford was co-champion last year means only that Wofford should be congratulated.
ARGHHHRHHRHHRHH!!!!! NO... it means the SoCon can be WON by teams other than AppSt even though they are the best PLAYOFF team in the country the past three years. xbangx

[89Hen]

As UMass proved last year you do not have to face 5-6 ranked teams to win the CAAxeyebrowx
And that's why I said "most likely". If you can argue over "possible" then I can too.

[OL FU]

And that's why I said "most likely". If you can argue over "possible" then I can too.

At this point all you are doing is proving that you will argue with a rockxrolleyesx

















You can call me Mr Granitexlolx

[bandl]

At this point all you are doing is proving that you will argue with a rockxrolleyesx

You haven't figured that out by now?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!! xconfusedx xconfusedx :p :p

[OL FU]

ARGHHHRHHRHHRHH!!!!! NO... it means the SoCon can be WON by teams other than AppSt even though they are the best PLAYOFF team in the country the past three years. xbangx

Don't be such a butthole of course they can. The question is which is the hardest to win and if you think having the best team in the division for three years in your conference doesn't make it the hardest to win then you need to bang your head against the wall.

PLAYOFF, I suppose that means that you would now like to argue that a team that wins the the NC three years in a row is not the best team in the country. That is a slippery slope that many in the FBS will be more than happy to listen tooxnodx

[89Hen]

PLAYOFF, I suppose that means that you would now like to argue that a team that wins the the NC three years in a row is not the best team in the country.
Not at all, but they did lose twice in the regular season. When the Hens won in 2003 in a very dominating playoff run, they were less than spectacular in the regular season and also lost to a team that did not make the playoffs. But we ARE talking about the regular season conference championship.

[89Hen]

You haven't figured that out by now?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!! xconfusedx xconfusedx :p :p
No kidding. How long has OL known me? :D

[bandl]

No kidding. How long has OL known me? :D

I'm not sure so unfortunately that's not something I can argue with you about... :o

[OL FU]

Not at all, but they did lose twice in the regular season. When the Hens won in 2003 in a very dominating playoff run, they were less than spectacular in the regular season and also lost to a team that did not make the playoffs. But we ARE talking about the regular season conference championship.

I think all this going around in circles is making me dizzyxrotatehx

OK, I finally get it. The fact that the best team in the division for three years in a row sits atop ones' conference means absolutely nothing in the degree of difficulty in winning the conference championship. The fact that in the last three years no team (including three from the CAA) in the FCS has beaten that top team except for teams in their own conference means absolutely nothing. Obviously the fact that ASU beat at least one or two of the 6 or 7 conference champions the CAA has each yearxcoolx means nothing.

Obviously, if UD JMU, UR and UMASS had been in the SoCon, ASU would have been in fifth place and would never have even seen the playoffs much less the championships.




How could I be so blindxcoolx

[89Hen]

Obviously, if UD JMU, UR and UMASS had been in the SoCon, ASU would have been in fifth place and would never have even seen the playoffs much less the championships.
xrolleyesx Going right to the Hitler arguement. :p

[Monarch History]

Reading this thread has been more entertaining than watching the Jerry Springer Show!xlolx

[grizband]

Reading this thread has been more entertaining than watching the Jerry Springer Show!xlolx
Welcome to AGS...!

[OL FU]

Reading this thread has been more entertaining than watching the Jerry Springer Show!xlolx

Did I miss the chicks rasslin'xrotatehx

[89Hen]

Reading this thread has been more entertaining than watching the Jerry Springer Show!xlolx
I get into more useless arguements than the Southland, Gateway and MEAC combined. The only one who can argue until blue in the face like I can are Pioneer fans. :)

[89Hen]

Welcome to AGS...!
Hey band, pretty soon you're going to be in violation of signature size if you guys keep letting teams win in Wa-Griz. :p

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

The thing about playing in the SoCon is that you always seem to have to get out from under a giant in order to pull it off. Marshall was the giant in the early and mid 90s, GSU was the giant in the late 90s and early 00s, and now of course App. State has taken over. On top of that, Furman and Wofford have both (though Furman moreso than Wofford) had their years even though they are more spread out (look at how Wofford did in 2003 when the SoCon "big 3" all had off years - they were probably the second-best team in the playoffs that year).

And like I have said before, the SoCon teams outside of the "big 3" are not as bad as people think. I wonder how the SoCon's OOC record would look like if most of our OOC games were Patriot, Pioneer, NEC, and Ivy League teams.

Still, top to bottom the CAA probably is still better, but like gophoenix said, having a split conference can makes it easier.

[uofmman1122]

Hey band, pretty soon you're going to be in violation of signature size if you guys keep letting teams win in Wa-Griz. :pYou.......


You bastard......

I can't stop laughing! xlolxxlolx

Oh...Reps to that one.

[crimsonfootball]

well of course its the Ivy league, but since I must chose these, i say CAA

[Cap'n Cat]

Chortling at the Big Skam.


xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx

[ngineer]

I think it has to be a conference where the champion has to play and get through everyone. Same problem I have with the Big Ten..some years teams get to avoid some real hot competition..

[89Hen]

I think it has to be a conference where the champion has to play and get through everyone.
So the Pioneer is tougher than the CAA. :p

[OL FU]

So the Pioneer is tougher than the CAA. :p

Read the questions, hardest to winxrolleyesx :p xrotatehx xnodx xlolx

[89Hen]

Read the questions, hardest to winxrolleyesx :p xrotatehx xnodx xlolx
That's why I said "tougher" and not "better". read: The Pioneer is tougher (to win) than the CAA.

[Gil Dobie]

No offense, but any conference that doesn't havea full round robin shouldn't be an option. It's not a real title unless you test yourself against everyone.

Great Point xthumbsupx

[Maroon&White]

outside of Delaware, the CAA doesn't have anything comparable to visiting Appalachian or Georgia Southern.

UMass doesn't have the same atmosphere, but they do have a longer home winning streak then anyone else in the CAA or in the SoCon.

[89Hen]

I think the road games are tougher since, outside of Delaware, the CAA doesn't have anything comparable to visiting Appalachian or Georgia Southern.


UMass doesn't have the same atmosphere, but they do have a longer home winning streak then anyone else in the CAA or in the SoCon.
FWIW, Delaware is pretty comparable to AppSt and in all honest JMU has become pretty comparable to GSU... just fewer flags and not as much tradition yet. Once they finish their expansion, it will definitely be on par attendance wise and the atmosphere is pretty good. xpeacex

[AppGrad06]

The thing about playing in the SoCon is that you always seem to have to get out from under a giant in order to pull it off. Marshall was the giant in the early and mid 90s, GSU was the giant in the late 90s and early 00s, and now of course App. State has taken over. On top of that, Furman and Wofford have both (though Furman moreso than Wofford) had their years even though they are more spread out (look at how Wofford did in 2003 when the SoCon "big 3" all had off years - they were probably the second-best team in the playoffs that year).

And like I have said before, the SoCon teams outside of the "big 3" are not as bad as people think. I wonder how the SoCon's OOC record would look like if most of our OOC games were Patriot, Pioneer, NEC, and Ivy League teams.

Still, top to bottom the CAA probably is still better, but like gophoenix said, having a split conference can makes it easier.

Don't forget about Elon or that The Citadel (that's for citdog) always puts up a fight in conference play. Oh and for you GSUers lets not forget about Chattyxwhistlex.

[89Hen]

Don't forget about Elon or that The Citadel (that's for citdog) always puts up a fight in conference play. Oh and for you GSUers lets not forget about Chattyxwhistlex.
It's the same in most conferences. Don't forget that the Hens (10-1) lost to Northeastern in 2003 and JMU (9-2 with a I-A loss) lost to W&M in 2004 but won the NC.

[Maroon&White]

FWIW, Delaware is pretty comparable to AppSt and in all honest JMU has become pretty comparable to GSU... just fewer flags and not as much tradition yet. Once they finish their expansion, it will definitely be on par attendance wise and the atmosphere is pretty good. xpeacex

Don't know if this was in response to what I said, but I didn't mean that UD and JMU don't have greats atmospheres. Those two definitely have the best atmospheres in the CAA, but that doesn't mean UD is the only comparable road game in toughness to visiting App St or GSU. xthumbsupx

[elcid96]

Don't forget about Elon or that The Citadel (that's for citdog) always puts up a fight in conference play. Oh and for you GSUers lets not forget about Chattyxwhistlex.

Oh, lets not forget the chatty beatdown on GSU last year.

[89Hen]

Don't know if this was in response to what I said, but I didn't mean that UD and JMU don't have greats atmospheres. Those two definitely have the best atmospheres in the CAA, but that doesn't mean UD is the only comparable road game in toughness to visiting App St or GSU. xthumbsupx
I just included you since you answered first. I got your gist. xthumbsupx

Actually Northeastern has proven the most difficult road game in the CAA for the Hens. There is a somewhat logical explanation though... on astroturf with no fans, it's so foreign to anything else in the CAA...

[Saint3333]

FWIW, Delaware is pretty comparable to AppSt and in all honest JMU has become pretty comparable to GSU... just fewer flags and not as much tradition yet. Once they finish their expansion, it will definitely be on par attendance wise and the atmosphere is pretty good. xpeacex

I'd like to get a JMU or Richmond fan's comparison of ASU vs. Delaware gamedays, anyone out there?

[Grizalltheway]

Chortling at the Big Skam.


xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx

Are you going to punch me in the nuts like your esteemed panthers? xnonono2x

[mcveyrl]

I'd like to get a JMU or Richmond fan's comparison of ASU vs. Delaware gamedays, anyone out there?

I have not been to Delaware, but have been to ASU twice (last two times).

Our first trip to ASU was not good. Part of the problem was that the person who got our tickets got them from the ASU website. So, we were on the ASU side. Most of our trip to our seats was accompanied by multiple cursings at us (me, my wife, our 2 year old, and our two friends). In fairness, these were students, so that kind of thing happens everywhere. There were also some kind students that kidded around with us in the entrance-way to the stadium. We eventually moved over to the JMU side. After that, it was nice (although the game wasn't too exciting, I'm pretty sure that ASU led just about the whole way).


The playoff trip was better. No confusion over the seats (actually went with my cousin that goes to App.), and we had a pleasant time (despite the outcome). The only negative in this one is that on the way out a lot of ASU fans acted like they had completely dominated us and hung there head out the window yelling. Again, this type of stuff happens just about everywhere too.

Having said all that, I don't have a Delaware trip to compare that to.

[DetroitFlyer]

It is extremely hard to win any FCS conference, period. Dayton defeated Fordham and Albany last year. Dayton lost to Morehead State.... How many of you think that Morehead State would defeat either Fordham or Albany...? I'm thinking not too many....

Dayton and MSU have a pretty good rivalry going. Both schools have very experienced and skilled coaching staffs, and frankly, both schools football programs, ( and fans ), do not much care for one another. The Dayton fans were not treated well at MSU last season.... As they left, chants of f*** Dayton were easy to hear.... MSU knocking off Dayton is always a high point of the season when it occurs!

Winning any FCS conference is very tough and every conference game can be a battle. Going back to the PFL, in 2006 Butler defeated Dayton. In 2007, Dayton won 61-0.... Do you think that Mike Kelly and company had something to prove in 2007? Absolutely. Conference games, every single one of them matter, more than OOC IMHO!

This is yet another reason why I think that EVERY FCS champion of an eligible conference should receive a bid the the playoffs....

[TheValleyRaider]

It is extremely hard to win any FCS conference, period. Dayton defeated Fordham and Albany last year. Dayton lost to Morehead State.... How many of you think that Morehead State would defeat either Fordham or Albany...? I'm thinking not too many....

Wait, what happened? xeekx :p

[letsgopards04]

The Patriot League, while it is not a power conference loaded with top 25 teams, is always competitive and usually comes down to the last weekend of the regular season to decide its champion. Most of the league is within a game or two of each other.

[ericsaid]

I even said CAA because of the depth and because there are two divisions.

[Longhorn]

I'd like to get a JMU or Richmond fan's comparison of ASU vs. Delaware gamedays, anyone out there?


They're very similar, and both are excellent. ASU draws a younger, rowdier crowd, but there is more tradition and a true "gameday" feel happening at UD. My guess is that the expansion of ASU's facilities (coupled with the "threepeat") will take ASU's atmosphere this coming year to a higher level (for the moment). Eventually UD will make the investment in a new (or totally revamped) stadium, and that in turn will raise the bar once again.

[ASU]

HARDEST to WIN......THAT IS the Question!

1000 "Little Sisters of the Poor" beating up on each other does NOT make it the Hardest to Win. It does Not necessarily make them ANY good.

The Hardest to Win, Is determined by how hard it is to take down the Best Team in the Land. Has to be.

Certainly cannot be a good sign that in addition to the Best team for the last three years has won the conference (or shared as co-champions last year).....and the CAA has not.

Does Not really matter how the bottom or middle tier of the conference teams match up against each other.....ONLY matters in head to head which team has beaten the rest.....That makes it the Hardest to Win.

Sorry Charlie!....but the Southern Conference -aka- SoCon IS the Hardest to Win.....realistically it HAS to be.

(However, I have tremendous respect for andthe CAA, Montana (even though they have lost at home the last two years to UMass and Wofford)and the Big Sky, and the Gateway should be pretty good this year with the Dakotas.)

[laxVik]

Only for teams not named "Montana". xlolx xlolx xlolx


I voted Gateway. Always seems like there's 4-5 teams who could be #1 in that conference.Yup. Because of course Montana's like a 30 year old who lives at home still and enjoys beating up the kids. Time to grow up and move out eventually. No? ;)

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Yup. Because of course Montana's like a 30 year old who lives at home still and enjoys beating up the kids. Time to grow up and move out eventually. No? ;)

We (the members of the Big Sky Conference) should never have allowed little punks into our house that refuse to grow up in the first place. Therein lies the problem.

[SactoHornetFan]

Are you serious? There's 5 people who voted "Big Sky"?


Must be 'Cat fans. xwhistlex xwhistlex xwhistlex

Actually, I voted for the Big Sky. Until someone can knock Montana off its perch (and I don't mean shared titles), its the hardest one to win. All the other conferences the teams at the top are close to one another.