Patsy (Recruiting) Ratings - Georgetown

[carney2]

I took my time this afternoon with this one. I wanted to savor it. God knows that many of us (me, more than most) have repeatedly piled on the Hoyas for their pigskin ineptitude and their failure to show even one little sign that someone/anyone inside the Beltway cares even a little about football. This is a giant step out of the darkness. Are they contenders? No. Is there reason to believe that the sleeping giant is awakening? Definitely.

GEORGETOWN TOTAL = 78

QUALITY = 31: Overall, 12 (36%) were rated by Rivals and/or Scout. Last year, 3 (14%) of the recruits were rated. The really impressive thing here is that four recruits received 2 stars from Rivals. It is easy to get mentioned (with no stars) from Rivals, but very difficult to get star ratings. For example, only two other recruits this year in the entire Patriot League received stars from Rivals. In addition, all 4 of these recruits were “verified” in that they also received stars from Scout (3 of them receiving the same 2 stars). Neither of the other Patriot League recruits who received stars this year from Rivals were “verified” by Scout. It should be noted that 3 of the 4 recruits who received 2 stars from Rivals (and who were “verified” by Scout) are QBs. Since QB is where you start to build a college football team,…

CLASS SIZE = 7: 33 recruits.

DISTRIBUTION = 9: At least one recruit in each of the 9 positions considered in this system.

SPEED = 13: Six recruits earned speed points based on the limited information available.

TRIGGER = 6: Something of an embarrassment of riches here, with 7 recruits listed as QBs. As pointed out above, 3 of the 7 appear to have above average potential.

JUMBO = 3: Probably the biggest disappointment in this group. Only two OL recruits, with only one weighing 275+. The other, however is a 2-star recruit (both services) and doesn’t miss by much. Four DL recruits, with only 1 @ 250+. Three recruits are listed as OL/DL, and all are in the 260-270 range. My guess is that Kelly will need them on the offensive side of the ball. Anyway, I arbitrarily awarded one point for this trio.

NEEDS = 9:

Rated Prospects (at least 5 or 6) = 5 (of 5): They got 12. Personally, I would like to see more ratings for the big uglies, but considering where they’ve been, this is extraordinary.
Offensive Line = 2 (of 4): Only 2 recruits specifically for the OL. Not impressive size.
Defensive Line = 2 (of 3): Not much of note here unless we assume that at least one of those OL/DL prospects ends up on the defense.

Final Results:

1. Georgetown 78
2. Lehigh 74
3. Fordham 71
4. Holy Cross 66
5. Colgate 64
6. Lafayette 58
7. Bucknell 53

[colorless raider]

I know some of their recruits and they are better than what they have been getting. HOWEVER, I will be shocked if this class turns out to be # 1 in the Patriot League.

[carney2]

I know some of their recruits and they are better than what they have been getting. HOWEVER, I will be shocked if this class turns out to be # 1 in the Patriot League.

You are probably right. This group of recruits is, shall we say, unbalanced. Lots of "quality" QBs and a bit of hit and miss elsewhere. 28 of the total Patsy Points awarded (36%) were for the QB position.

Still, it's great for the League to see the bottom feeder beginning to stir.

[Seawolf97]

It would be good to see the Hoyas win a few this season. They played us tough last year at Stonybrook and were driving from mid field when time ran out.
Hopefully 5 or 6 wins this seasons would get them going.

[bison137]

Final Results:

1. Georgetown 78
2. Lehigh 74
3. Fordham 71
4. Holy Cross 66
5. Colgate 64
6. Lafayette 58
7. Bucknell 53



Not that it matters much, but if you include the five recruits that Bucknell added after your initial rankings, I believe it raises the final Bucknell point total to 67.

Three more points under quality (a 2-star and a 1-star), two more for size, eight more for speed, and one more for trigger.

Having said that, I imagine some of the teams with the earlier press releases also added more.

[colorless raider]

Not that it matters much, but if you include the five recruits that Bucknell added after your initial rankings, I believe it raises the final Bucknell point total to 67.

Three more points under quality (a 2-star and a 1-star), two more for size, eight more for speed, and one more for trigger.

Having said that, I imagine some of the teams with the earlier press releases also added more.

The addition of David Noshay alone would bump you up. He Is a player!

[DFW HOYA]

God knows that many of us (me, more than most) have repeatedly piled on the Hoyas for their pigskin ineptitude and their failure to show even one little sign that someone/anyone inside the Beltway cares even a little about football.

Rather than make unfounded claims, some specifics to this point are welcome.

[bison137]

The addition of David Noshay alone would bump you up. He Is a player!



Yes, he definitely seems to be a player. He only got 1 star from Scout, but part of that was due to him playing for an under-the-radar prep school until his senior year when he transferred to a 6A public school in Broward County. He went on to make Class 6A All-State First Team, throwing for 1,809 yards and 16 touchdowns, and running for 1,239 yards and 16 touchdowns. He was named Nike South Florida Player of the Year and first team All-Broward County. Also MVP of the Nike South Florida Dade vs. Broward all-star game During the year, he had a 289-yard rushing game.

Ironically - and this shows the limitations on any point system - Noshay only adds 1 point to the Bucknell Patsy ratings. Three other late signees actually added more. A juco LB from Utah, who is supposed to be very good, added no points since he had no Scout/Rivals rating back in 2004 when he graduated from H.S. (Did two-year Mormon mission right after that.)

In any event, better to see him in a Bucknell jersey than a Colgate one. :)

[carney2]

Rather than make unfounded claims, some specifics to this point are welcome.

At this point I'm giving Kelly an "A" for effort based on this recruiting class. It's a start. The rest of that crew down there still grades out at an "F" as they continue to sit on their hands - or cassocks.

Now, if the aforementioned Coach Kelly can figure a way for his super QBs to score loads of points without all that much support from most of the other 21 regulars, you're "in the hunt." I sure don't see this crew providing that 5 or 6 wins that someone mentioned.

I say again: the first good pigskin news to come out of Hoyaland in years. Let's smile, give them a pat on the back, and leave it at that.

[Andy]

Rather than make unfounded claims, some specifics to this point are welcome.

The League held off release of the Spring Pospectus until late April; still, GT couldn't provide what every other program had--a "squad breakdown" and a recruit list. I can understand financial difficulties, but that just smacks of carelessness or disinterest.

That being said, this looks like a strong class with a number of stud QBs. Quotes in the press indicate several feel they have a chance to win the job as freshmen. With two sophs already in the program, will Coach Kelly have a problem keeping all these QBs happy?

Not sure if true, but there's a perception out there that GT has attracted their share of exceptional players in the recent past, but has had a problem with retention.

[DFW HOYA]

The League held off release of the Spring Pospectus until late April; still, GT couldn't provide what every other program had--a "squad breakdown" and a recruit list. I can understand financial difficulties, but that just smacks of carelessness or disinterest.


A list of Georgetown recruits has been out on the Web since at least February if Carney or other fans had wanted to check it. The official list waits until players have sent in deposits, not just commit, due to some instances where players commit to Georgetown and then end up taking offers with other teams, the most famous of which having now All-American tackle Greg Isdaner listed on Georgetown's 2004 summer roster, only to see West Virginia sign him to a scholarship before the start of classes. From a program standpoint, it does no good to post 29 names on day one and lose them over the next three months.

That's neither "carelessness" nor "disinterest", two adjectives better used to how this league seems to view Georgetown over the years. More on that in a later post.

[carney2]

A list of Georgetown recruits has been out on the Web since at least February if Carney or other fans had wanted to check it.

"Checked it" and did the appropriate research weeks ago. Do not ever "publish" until the official press release from the athletic department.

Note to 137 and others: do not re-do without official info from athletic department.

[DFW HOYA]

Understood, Carney. My other points were to those others who questioned why Georgetown wouldn't announce a list.

[colorless raider]

Yes, he definitely seems to be a player. He only got 1 star from Scout, but part of that was due to him playing for an under-the-radar prep school until his senior year when he transferred to a 6A public school in Broward County. He went on to make Class 6A All-State First Team, throwing for 1,809 yards and 16 touchdowns, and running for 1,239 yards and 16 touchdowns. He was named Nike South Florida Player of the Year and first team All-Broward County. Also MVP of the Nike South Florida Dade vs. Broward all-star game During the year, he had a 289-yard rushing game.

Ironically - and this shows the limitations on any point system - Noshay only adds 1 point to the Bucknell Patsy ratings. Three other late signees actually added more. A juco LB from Utah, who is supposed to be very good, added no points since he had no Scout/Rivals rating back in 2004 when he graduated from H.S. (Did two-year Mormon mission right after that.)

In any event, better to see him in a Bucknell jersey than a Colgate one. :)

You can thank your financial aid office for that one.

[Andy]

Understood, Carney. My other points were to those others who questioned why Georgetown wouldn't announce a list.

DFW, every other team provided a "squad breakdown" for the PL spring prospectus comprised of returning O, D, + ST starters, with their height and weight. GT's section was noted "not available at press time." This had to annoy the league info people.

Regarding recruits, every other team was able to wing it by April 24 with a list. I don't think GT is in a unique position, all programs lose a recruit or two at times. As far as finding the list on a fan site, isn't the prospectus produced as a convenient compendium of info for interested parties for the coming season? It's supposed to make it easy, eliminate the research. GT didn't fulfill their obligation to the PL to provide their info.

I just think carney was right. For a program that's being called out in some quarters for continued ineptitude, (and I mentioned the understandable financial factor which stems from the hospital losses, I believe) you'd think they'd want to at least be forthcoming on a timely basis with info that the league is looking for.

With the new staff, increased funding (read that somewhere), and this new class, things are looking up.

[bison137]

Note to 137 and others: do not re-do without official info from athletic department.



Not asking for a re-do, but the five new commits do show up in the BU press release on the signing class. The release was revised to change the overall number from 25 to 30. I will have KenZ contact you with further info.

The five names that were added:

David Noshay - listed earlier in this thread; QB from Broward County, Florida.
Jamil Crews - RB from the Tampa area.
Saron Hood - WR/DB from San Diego area.
Josh Andersen - LB from juco in Utah that was #1 ranked juco in final regular season poll.
Gabe Skwara - WR from North Carolina.

[TheValleyRaider]

DFW, every other team provided a "squad breakdown" for the PL spring prospectus comprised of returning O, D, + ST starters, with their height and weight. GT's section was noted "not available at press time." This had to annoy the league info people.

It might, but how much does that really matter? Colgate is notoriously tight-lipped about anything involving Athletics, and it goes across sports too. Last year, star basketball player Kyle Roemer injured himself early in the year, yet no one outside of the team knew about it until Colgate showed up at the League's media day without their best player and an explanation was in order. Granted, Colgate is one of the core schools (and it doubtful the rest of the League would kick us out), but still, I wonder...

As far as our perception of Georgetown's program goes, I think it stems mostly from what we see from Hoya fans. Love the Hoya team though you may, you have hardly expressed satisfaction with the emphasis the school's administration and athletic department have given football, especially when compared to the monstrous cash-cow that is Georgetown Basketball. All of us Patriot League fans, Hoya and non-Hoya, see a tiny stadium called "Multi-Sport Field", little financial support, and a team that has yet to win more than 2 League games in a season since joining. Georgetown is the sleeping giant, I think, but until this point has been pulling a Rip Van Winkle on us all xpeacex

[DRocksDad]

I am pretty sure there are NCAA rules that govern recruit lists. Something like they can only do a formal press release one time. I was told this by the HC of an FCS team when they held off the list to wait for a recruit to decide to commit.

[Fordham]

xthumbsupx

Good stuff Hoyas! Congrats on what sounds like a class that could turn things around at G-town.

Also, thanks for the work & effort put in once again this year, carney. Very much appreciated and great, great stuff for those of us that love to get into the details of all things PL-football related. xbowx

[carney2]

Not asking for a re-do, but the five new commits do show up in the BU press release on the signing class. The release was revised to change the overall number from 25 to 30. I will have KenZ contact you with further info.

The five names that were added:

David Noshay - listed earlier in this thread; QB from Broward County, Florida.
Jamil Crews - RB from the Tampa area.
Saron Hood - WR/DB from San Diego area.
Josh Andersen - LB from juco in Utah that was #1 ranked juco in final regular season poll.
Gabe Skwara - WR from North Carolina.

As we all know, and has been pointed out many times, this system has many flaws. The lack of "re-dos" I guess is one that has not come up before. The fact that Georgetown ended up number one this year largely on the strength of 3 top notch QB recruits is another. Still, I contend that it is the only (almost) objective thing going on in this area.

Everyone is convinced that their group is special. For instance, Lafayette has, to the best of my knowledge, not added anyone to the original list. If we were to count the Buffalo recruits detailed above, Lafayette would drop into last place in the Patsy Ratings. This, after finishing number one last year and building the Taj MaFootball that is suppoised to be an irresistible recruiting magnet. Still, the Pard faithful are convinced that their group is really good. How do they know? Because they're sure. Frankly, I think that the ratings prove that Tavani and company didn't do so well this year. Are they dead last? Maybe not. But they are certainly not near the top.

In summary, this whole rating thing is a crapshoot at best. I contend that until someone takes the time and trouble to come up with something better, this is the best we've got. It sure beats gut feel, "I really like this group" quotes from the head coach, and "let's wait 4 years and see."

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Something needs to be mentioned about the signing day lists for the Patriot League.

First of all (and this is very important) the PL does NOT participate in the Letter Of Intent program. I don't think the League would be all that upset if G'Town announces later simply because they haven't demanded a single day that schools announce their recruits.

Second, just because a kid has signed a LOI, or a PL "likely letter", doesn't mean that they can't decide to go somewhere else. There are lots of cases of this type of thing happening - I can rattle off the top of my head two from Lehigh in the past two years (one of whom signed at Holy Cross) - but LOI students do it all the time as well.

This means that no school HAS to announce on signing day if they don't want to. Lafayette can announce on LOI day (and that seems to be their preference), Lehigh can announce a week later so both Lehigh and Lafayette get good press coverage of their incoming classes, and Georgetown can choose to announce when most of the Ivy League schools do (which is, indeed, what they've done).

Personally, I wish everyone would spread out their signing day lists the way the Patriot League has done.

*******

As for G'Town not providing the PL prospectus with 2008 season information, that is a pain for me when I'm trying to do previews, that's for certain - though I'm smart enough to find the information, too, elsewhere. I agree that can't endear anyone with the League office.

[carney2]

I'm smart enough

Those of us who have always thought of you and your fellow alums as spoons in the knife drawer beg to differ.

[jimbo65]

The fact that Georgetown ended up number one this year largely on the strength of 3 top notch QB recruits is another.
"What is the logic of GU recruiting three QBs. What is the logic of the three going there knowing that barring injury etc., two will be disappointed. Perhaps they are not all that top notch.

[carney2]

What is the logic of GU recruiting three QBs. What is the logic of the three going there knowing that barring injury etc., two will be disappointed. Perhaps they are not all that top notch.

Try 7! The 3 in question are merely the ones with the "prize recruit" credentials. Oh yeah, and by the way, the 3 do appear to be "top notch" by Patriot League recruiting standards.

[Fordham]

jimbo, I'm guessing that it's similar to the way that Masella loves to recruit QB's and then put them in the defensive backfield or at WR or wherever. I know I've heard him say that in High School the best athletes are typically the QB's, so it's always good to get them and then find a spot for them somewhere else on the field.

[TheValleyRaider]

jimbo, I'm guessing that it's similar to the way that Masella loves to recruit QB's and then put them in the defensive backfield or at WR or wherever. I know I've heard him say that in High School the best athletes are typically the QB's, so it's always good to get them and then find a spot for them somewhere else on the field.

That was my thought too. In HS, most schools rarely have an abundance of athletes, so they obvious answer for the coach that wants to win is to give the ball to his best player as many times as possible. How do you do that? Make him QB, where he'll handle every snap per game. At this level, when teams are better able to select their membership, you can be more discriminating on your QB tastes, and put athletes in position to make better use of their skills xtwocentsx

[Lehigh74]

The idea about the best high school athletes being quarterbacks is very true. Adam Bergen, Lehigh's great tight end from a few years back was recruited as a quarterback and switched to tight end by the Lehigh coaching staff. So it looks like Georgetown may have some great skill position players in this recruiting class. The question is, however, do they have anyone to block for them?

[Tribe4SF]

QBs often find the field at other positions. When W&M takes the field this Fall, former QBs RJ Archer (still working some at QB), Chase Hill and David Houff will see action at WR, H-Back and Safety. The most successful QB transformation at W&M has to be Darren Sharper, who pleaded with Jimmye Laycock to allow him to remain a signal caller during his freshman year.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Try 7! The 3 in question are merely the ones with the "prize recruit" credentials. Oh yeah, and by the way, the 3 do appear to be "top notch" by Patriot League recruiting standards.

Personally, I think coach Kelly said to the G'town AD, 'Look at our Patsy ratings! We need to get that up, pronto! Quick, what's the best QB prospects in Fairfield County, CT?'

Nothing like gaming the rating system... xlolx

[carney2]

Personally, I think coach Kelly said to the G'town AD, 'Look at our Patsy ratings! We need to get that up, pronto! Quick, what's the best QB prospects in Fairfield County, CT?'

Nothing like gaming the rating system... xlolx

I refer one and all to my earlier comment about a spoon in the knife drawer.

[bison137]

I refer one and all to my earlier comment about a spoon in the knife drawer.


Just out of curiousity, to which drawer would you assign KenZ? :)

[LBPop]

I have read this thread with great interest despite my new status as "AlumLBPop". Let me offer a few observations about points made:

For a while now Georgetown has been strong behind the line of scrimmage--both sides. From Dads recently on the recruiting trail I have heard that opposing PL coaches affirm that. They all say that if the Hoyas could beef up their lines, they could compete very well.

This idea of recruiting a bunch of QBs concerns me. I doubt that any of them have been told that they should consider another position if they don't earn the #1 or #2 QB slot. The result is that this summer in a period of about two weeks Coach Kelly will have to pick a #1 and #2. Then five other QB candidates will have to come to terms with the idea of riding the bench and likely missing the bus for four years. It breeds discontent and that is very contagious on a program that has won three games in two years.

As for commitment to football, almost any criticism of the University in this area is IMO justified. The promise of a new stadium is like (this is a reference for the other old guys on this board) the 5 year plans of the Soviet Union. Every year they would issue a new 5 year plan.

I think Coach Kelly is making a real effort within the limitations forced upon him. While I have questioned some of his decisions, I have never doubted his commitment. My fear is that the 2008 Hoyas will be very young and that includes a freshman starting QB. With some key losses of talent and leadership plus a really tough schedule, another 1-10 season is in sight. I hope Coach and the staff can survive that long enough for the kids to develop.

[DFW HOYA]

Hard to argue anything LBPop said, although 1-10 is no guarantee without some help up front. The roster hasn't been released so it's unclear who's back at this point.

Eight years into this Patriot thing, no one could have thought it would gone like this. Both sides share blame--Georgetown for not landing the players to make a difference, and the league for largely ignoring the fact that they even have a 7th school. Had the PL seen the strategic importance of a competitive program, things would have been different.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Hard to argue anything LBPop said, although 1-10 is no guarantee without some help up front. The roster hasn't been released so it's unclear who's back at this point.

Eight years into this Patriot thing, no one could have thought it would gone like this. Both sides share blame--Georgetown for not landing the players to make a difference, and the league for largely ignoring the fact that they even have a 7th school.

It's hard to quantify how a school can legitimately recruit around the Multi-Sport Field, whose very name suggests a temporary name unrtil something better comes along. And if Georgetown recruited seven QB's, it's not at the expense of turning down seven linemen.

Then again, the PL has shown very little interest whether Georgetown is stuck at 1-10 for the next two seasons or the next 20. In some ways, it's becoming like the ACC and Duke football. How many games does Duke have to lose for the ACC to sit up and expect results? Well, none, because the ACC doesn't have to.

I don't think that's totally fair, DFW. I know you don't like the changes to the AI, but that, IMO, that will benefit Georgetown more than any other school in the conference. If (and this is a big if) Georgetown ramps up spending on the program to go with a new-and-improved AI, you will see a difference.

Personally? I think it will happen.

[DFW HOYA]

I've said before I don't understand the need for an AI for the PL, but if it was maintained would support a conference wide index that would truly provide a level playing field where one does not currently exist.

[Fordham]

Dopey AI question from a guy who doesn't completely 'get it' with regard to the AI discussion.

Given that we're the caboose of the league's AI, is it possible that a move to a conference-wide index would actually force us to recruit kids who are better academically than the rest of our student body?

[carney2]

Eight years into this Patriot thing, no one could have thought it would gone like this. Both sides share blame--Georgetown for not landing the players to make a difference, and the league for largely ignoring the fact that they even have a 7th school. Had the PL seen the strategic importance of a competitive program, things would have been different.

I know that we've been down this road before, but my memory isn't what it used to be and, in fact, it never was. Could you please give another tour of your logic in this area. Detailed and with examples would be very helpful.

[DFW HOYA]

Could you please give another tour of your logic in this area. Detailed and with examples would be very helpful.

I thought about this over the weekend and came up with two words not associated with the Patriot League: Old Dominion.

Old Dominion, as everyone on this board knows, adds football in 2009. While they conceivably could have jumped straight into the CAA, they would have been mauled. The CAA opted to let ODU ramp up to CAA play in its recruiting and build a fan base ready to take its lumps once its schedule reflects the heavy hitters of that league. Put another way, the CAA is taking the long view with ODU.

Flash back to 2001, where the PL sees the writing on the wall with Towson and sees a Georgetown program looking to follow St. John's lead and move out of the MAAC. (The St. John's story is a case study onto itself-- the Redmen were in no shape to join the NEC and finished its final days back in the MAAC, a mortally wounded program.)

Georgetown was not St. John's or ODU--it had been playing almost 100 seasons and enjoyed considerable success in the woebegone MAAC, though playing on the now infamous roof that was Kehoe Field. But for a team with no equivalencies and a $300,000 budget, the PL had to know that a MAAC team would be cannon fodder in the PL. While all parties were for a rapid entrance for the Hoyas, the PL misssed an opportunity to build up a program that could get it some more national recognition south of I-78.

Had the PL considered a three year period where Georgetown could have built up its budget, its schedule, and finalized its ongoing quest for a home field while Towson was moving to the A-10/CAA, Georgetown could have entered the league in 2003 with a little more momentum behind it than it did in 2001, where they were 2-8, outscored 316-160, and losing all its league games by an average margin of 23 points. The 2007 numbers, as we know, were little better.

Maybe if the league had invested a little more in new members like Georgetown (and the massive losses for Fordham before that) the results for the league as a whole would have surely improved. Georgetown and Fordham are national schools that can bring recognition to the league. It needs both of them to be successful so that everyone in the league can be successful.

[bison137]

While all parties were for a rapid entrance for the Hoyas, the PL misssed an opportunity to build up a program that could get it some more national recognition south of I-78.

Had the PL considered a three year period where Georgetown could have built up its budget, its schedule, and finalized its ongoing quest for a home field while Towson was moving to the A-10/CAA, Georgetown could have entered the league in 2003 with a little more momentum behind it



Just out of curiousity, did Georgetown request such a 3-year waiting period or express any interest in it?

[Fordham]

Dopey AI question from a guy who doesn't completely 'get it' with regard to the AI discussion.

Given that we're the caboose of the league's AI, is it possible that a move to a conference-wide index would actually force us to recruit kids who are better academically than the rest of our student body?

At the risk of going blind, quoting myself here to see if anyone with better AI understanding can answer the ?. LFN, DFW ... Bueller?

[TheValleyRaider]

At the risk of going blind, quoting myself here to see if anyone with better AI understanding can answer the ?. LFN, DFW ... Bueller?

The only thing I could think of would be to set the AI on a League-wide basis rather than school-by-school. Get a composite of all PL members, find the AI range there and allow all recruitment within that. As it stands now, I believe, each school has to recruit within their range (or at least above their minimum). This kind of change would in effect lower everyone to Fordham's AI level (which isn't meant to be as condescending as it might sound) and put us all on the same playing field while still maintaining some kind of minimum standard above what most other schools will do xtwocentsx

[ngineer]

jimbo, I'm guessing that it's similar to the way that Masella loves to recruit QB's and then put them in the defensive backfield or at WR or wherever. I know I've heard him say that in High School the best athletes are typically the QB's, so it's always good to get them and then find a spot for them somewhere else on the field.

A number of schools do the same. Lehigh has two others on the roster who were QB's in high school, but are now in the secondary...Not uncommon.

[Fordham]

The only thing I could think of would be to set the AI on a League-wide basis rather than school-by-school. Get a composite of all PL members, find the AI range there and allow all recruitment within that. As it stands now, I believe, each school has to recruit within their range (or at least above their minimum). This kind of change would in effect lower everyone to Fordham's AI level (which isn't meant to be as condescending as it might sound) and put us all on the same playing field while still maintaining some kind of minimum standard above what most other schools will do xtwocentsx I can follow that but my question then still stands. Is it possible that the new league-wide AI would result in Fordham (no offense taken, by the way, since it is what it is), as the lowest AI contributor, possibly being forced to recruit kids who are actually higher academically than the rest of our student body?

[Fordham]

The only thing I could think of would be to set the AI on a League-wide basis rather than school-by-school. Get a composite of all PL members, find the AI range there and allow all recruitment within that. As it stands now, I believe, each school has to recruit within their range (or at least above their minimum). This kind of change would in effect lower everyone to Fordham's AI level (which isn't meant to be as condescending as it might sound) and put us all on the same playing field while still maintaining some kind of minimum standard above what most other schools will do xtwocentsx First off, no offense taken - it is what it is when it comes down to our AI position. The piece that I'm not following is how getting a league-wide composite results in everyone being able to recruit within Fordham's current band. There's no need for any composite results to be done if that's the case. All the league would have to do is simply state that the entire league could recruit within the AI band of the lowest ranked AI school in the conference. I don't see them letting that happen, so I still ask how this stuff is calculated.

Again, LFN, I'd very much appreciate your take here as you seem to be more in the "in the know" category than others when it comes to AI imo.

[Fordham]

First off, no offense taken - it is what it is when it comes down to our AI position. The piece that I'm not following is how getting a league-wide composite results in everyone being able to recruit within Fordham's current band. There's no need for any composite results to be done if that's the case. All the league would have to do is simply state that the entire league could recruit within the AI band of the lowest ranked AI school in the conference. I don't see them letting that happen, so I still ask how this stuff is calculated.

Again, LFN, I'd very much appreciate your take here as you seem to be more in the "in the know" category than others when it comes to AI imo.

Another shot at LFN (or anyone else as knowledgable on the topic as I think he is). Thanks.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Dopey AI question from a guy who doesn't completely 'get it' with regard to the AI discussion.

Given that we're the caboose of the league's AI, is it possible that a move to a conference-wide index would actually force us to recruit kids who are better academically than the rest of our student body?

Not really since the AI is supposed to (in theory) ensure that the quality of FB recruits are representative of the rest of their class (read: they can be a little below). For Fordham, the strictest of AIs would mean that they are the same as the rest of the class (i.e., "more selective" if you beleive US News and World Report).

A conference-wide index that everyone is talking about - I think everyone is referring to an Ivy-like approach to the AI where there is a league-wide floor, and there are are "bands" where everyone can recruit a certain academic number in each band. Theoretically, the "floor" could be above that of the average student body, meaning Fordham would have to recruit students above that floor and be above the average of the general student population. But in practice I'd see this as highly unlikely to happen, especially because Fordham is an associate member and could bail to any number of leagues (the CAA, NEC, or maybe even the BSC) if that happened. I don't think anyone is looking to punish Fordham in any way, shape or form.

However, if a league-wide index and a banding system is what the PL does - and I think that it is - this favors the "high-academic" schools since now they can recruit that one or two difference-makers a year in the lower "bands", while for Fordham it would still be business as usual (i.e., recruiting around the predetermined "floor" of the league). Of course there are other factors - but the tools would be there.

Hope this helps (and sorry for the late response, Fordham, I have a lot of writing to do! :) )

[Fordham]

Not really since the AI is supposed to (in theory) ensure that the quality of FB recruits are representative of the rest of their class (read: they can be a little below). For Fordham, the strictest of AIs would mean that they are the same as the rest of the class (i.e., "more selective" if you beleive US News and World Report).

A conference-wide index that everyone is talking about - I think everyone is referring to an Ivy-like approach to the AI where there is a league-wide floor, and there are are "bands" where everyone can recruit a certain academic number in each band. Theoretically, the "floor" could be above that of the average student body, meaning Fordham would have to recruit students above that floor and be above the average of the general student population. But in practice I'd see this as highly unlikely to happen, especially because Fordham is an associate member and could bail to any number of leagues (the CAA, NEC, or maybe even the BSC) if that happened. I don't think anyone is looking to punish Fordham in any way, shape or form.

However, if a league-wide index and a banding system is what the PL does - and I think that it is - this favors the "high-academic" schools since now they can recruit that one or two difference-makers a year in the lower "bands", while for Fordham it would still be business as usual (i.e., recruiting around the predetermined "floor" of the league). Of course there are other factors - but the tools would be there.

Hope this helps (and sorry for the late response, Fordham, I have a lot of writing to do! :) )

Thanks LFN. Sorry to be a pest about the whole thing but it's only because I respect your take on it and knew you'd know more than I did about it.

After reading the above, the only area I disagree with you on is that it's not punitive for us. Now, perhaps it's not meant to punitive, so you're technically correct ... but it most certainly will have the greatest negative impact on us. If we're trying to ape the Ivy model here, it's also clear that before they made this AI change that schools like Dartmouth, Cornell, Brown were having their days in the sun while Harvard plummeted to the bottom ranks. Once the switch was made, though, it's been all H-Y-P with the "P" sometimes standing for Princeton and other times for Penn. Not sure why we shouldn't expect this to have a similar effect on Fordham and the PL in general.

I think more than anything what will frustrate most Fordham fans (myself included) is that the league went into their bunker this past year to discuss competitiveness and instead of coming out and addressing the scholarship issue, they instead chose to implement the AI issue. They could have lifted all boats and made us more competitive with the rest of the FCS but instead chose to just do some navel gazing and address only competitiveness within the league. It's very telling to a Fordham fan who can only be left with the fact that the league is either a) interested in acting only when other schools infringe upon the Big 3's dominance or b) they're much more concerned with trying to emulate all things Ivy regardless of the fact that other priorities are going unaddressed.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Thanks LFN. Sorry to be a pest about the whole thing but it's only because I respect your take on it and knew you'd know more than I did about it.

After reading the above, the only area I disagree with you on is that it's not punitive for us. Now, perhaps it's not meant to punitive, so you're technically correct ... but it most certainly will have the greatest negative impact on us. If we're trying to ape the Ivy model here, it's also clear that before they made this AI change that schools like Dartmouth, Cornell, Brown were having their days in the sun while Harvard plummeted to the bottom ranks. Once the switch was made, though, it's been all H-Y-P with the "P" sometimes standing for Princeton and other times for Penn. Not sure why we shouldn't expect this to have a similar effect on Fordham and the PL in general.

I think more than anything what will frustrate most Fordham fans (myself included) is that the league went into their bunker this past year to discuss competitiveness and instead of coming out and addressing the scholarship issue, they instead chose to implement the AI issue. They could have lifted all boats and made us more competitive with the rest of the FCS but instead chose to just do some navel gazing and address only competitiveness within the league. It's very telling to a Fordham fan who can only be left with the fact that the league is either a) interested in acting only when other schools infringe upon the Big 3's dominance or b) they're much more concerned with trying to emulate all things Ivy regardless of the fact that other priorities are going unaddressed.

I generally agree with your statements above. I think in this case it's more b) than a), especially in the sense that it seems like the Presidents don't seem at times to want to bother with athletics that much or that they perceive that there isn't really a problem that needs fixing, just "tweaking". When bold, groundbreaking initiatives to increase minority involvement and diversify the composition of the teams economically (and, by extension, the student body) are required to field competitive teams, the unfortunate knee-jerk reaction seems to be to ask instead: "What are the Ivies doing?"

I think at the Patriot League and Ivy League levels, you have to ask the coaches what they think. And Yale head coach Jack Sidlecki's interview with ESPN tells an interesting story:

http://www.championshipsubdivisionnews.com/?title=yale-s-jack-sidlecki-talks-bcs-recruitin&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1


What are your keys to get the kind of recruits that make your program successful and allow you to succeed within the context of the university that your represent?

Siedlecki: Our biggest advantage is also our biggest disadvantage. Say the word, 'Yale,' I can go into almost any high school in the country and they know who we are. We are a nationally known school. It's a tremendous educational opportunity.

But as a football coach, that's also one of the tougher parts of it: how selective we are. Academically, the type of kid that we have to recruit is off the charts. Honestly, our average SATs at the school are 1490. It's ridiculous. When we go out and recruit football players, one of the reasons our kids are from all over the country is there are very few kids who have the academic qualifications and are good enough football players. That is definitely our biggest challenge, to go out and find those guys.

I say to my assistant coaches all the time, 'You can talk to the greatest high school players in the country and many times that isn't doing us any good at all.' We've got to find the guys who are recruitable for Yale and then bust our ass to get those guys. If we get the best of that group, we'll be competitive in our league and we'll be able to put a team on the field every year that can contend for the championship.

Remember: This is YALE's head football coach talking. Everyone knows who Yale is. Yale, with the billion-dollar endowment. HE'S saying that there are very few kids with the football skills and the academics required. If Yale is having a tough time, what hope can any of the non-H-Y-P schools have, let alone the rest of the PL?

[carney2]

Thanks LFN. Sorry to be a pest about the whole thing but it's only because I respect your take on it and knew you'd know more than I did about it.

After reading the above, the only area I disagree with you on is that it's not punitive for us. Now, perhaps it's not meant to punitive, so you're technically correct ... but it most certainly will have the greatest negative impact on us. If we're trying to ape the Ivy model here, it's also clear that before they made this AI change that schools like Dartmouth, Cornell, Brown were having their days in the sun while Harvard plummeted to the bottom ranks. Once the switch was made, though, it's been all H-Y-P with the "P" sometimes standing for Princeton and other times for Penn. Not sure why we shouldn't expect this to have a similar effect on Fordham and the PL in general.

I think more than anything what will frustrate most Fordham fans (myself included) is that the league went into their bunker this past year to discuss competitiveness and instead of coming out and addressing the scholarship issue, they instead chose to implement the AI issue. They could have lifted all boats and made us more competitive with the rest of the FCS but instead chose to just do some navel gazing and address only competitiveness within the league. It's very telling to a Fordham fan who can only be left with the fact that the league is either a) interested in acting only when other schools infringe upon the Big 3's dominance or b) they're much more concerned with trying to emulate all things Ivy regardless of the fact that other priorities are going unaddressed.

Sounds like a hint of paranoia at work. You guys need to get back in the League with both feet so you can stop feeling like an "outsider.":) xnodx :D xrolleyesx

[JoltinJoe]

Sounds like a hint of paranoia at work. You guys need to get back in the League with both feet so you can stop feeling like an "outsider.":) xnodx :D xrolleyesx

I wonder what the agenda of the new A-10 commissioner is? I'm guessing there is a behind the scenes warning that Fordham's facilities must be upgraded right away ...

And, unless things have changed, I have heard that a new basketball facility is down on the list of planned improvements, behind a new law school, a new science center, a new dorm, a new student center, and a new student recreation facility.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I wonder what the agenda of the new A-10 commissioner is? I'm guessing there is a behind the scenes warning that Fordham's facilities must be upgraded right away ...

And, unless things have changed, I have heard that a new basketball facility is down on the list of planned improvements, behind a new law school, a new science center, a new dorm, a new student center, and a new student recreation facility.

My impression of the new A-10 commissioner is: of basketball, by basketball, for basketball. Oh yeah, and her mission is to re-brand A-10 basketball to not be considered "mid-major". Good luck with all that.

Did I mention she's focused on basketball?

[Fordham]

Sounds like a hint of paranoia at work. You guys need to get back in the League with both feet so you can stop feeling like an "outsider.":) xnodx :D xrolleyesx

Likely more than a hint of paranoia. I really think that LFN nailed it very well. What this amounts to is either a complete lack of leadership at the PL headquarters level or else a completely impotent leadership who's hands are tied by athletically ambivalent Presidents. Neither option warms the cockles.

Either way, I wouldn't be surprised if there were a small window after the AI changes are made for the league to act on scholarships before Fordham starts looking at alternatives. The fact that the PL huddled up and teased us on scholarships and then just came back only with AI changes leaves me stunned and it's tough to argue that we shouldn't get more bang for the $3+MM we're spending on the program.

I've actually been in the pro-PL camp for a long time and have been in the vast minority on the issue and had even held out hope for our all-sports return some day. Seeing this move is very disheartening. As much as I love the PL, I have trouble arguing with the anti-PL people at Fordham that the PL has good (or strong) enough leadership to move the league in the direction it needs to go in. Again, just my opinion but again it's very disheartening imo since the hope I had held out that the league could see and capitalize on the incredible brand possibilities of having an "Athletic Ivies" conference that was clear and distinct from the Ivy league is now replaced with a realization that we're more than happy to simply be the 'Ivies Goomah'.

[carney2]

Likely more than a hint of paranoia. I really think that LFN nailed it very well. What this amounts to is either a complete lack of leadership at the PL headquarters level or else a completely impotent leadership who's hands are tied by athletically ambivalent Presidents. Neither option warms the cockles.

Either way, I wouldn't be surprised if there were a small window after the AI changes are made for the league to act on scholarships before Fordham starts looking at alternatives. The fact that the PL huddled up and teased us on scholarships and then just came back only with AI changes leaves me stunned and it's tough to argue that we shouldn't get more bang for the $3+MM we're spending on the program.

I've actually been in the pro-PL camp for a long time and have been in the vast minority on the issue and had even held out hope for our all-sports return some day. Seeing this move is very disheartening. As much as I love the PL, I have trouble arguing with the anti-PL people at Fordham that the PL has good (or strong) enough leadership to move the league in the direction it needs to go in. Again, just my opinion but again it's very disheartening imo since the hope I had held out that the league could see and capitalize on the incredible brand possibilities of having an "Athletic Ivies" conference that was clear and distinct from the Ivy league is now replaced with a realization that we're more than happy to simply be the 'Ivies Goomah'.

Most of the PL presidents really see football as the 2,000 pound gorilla that they would love to see leave their party. I say again, don't expect action on football scholarships anytime soon. My bet is that the academic poohbahs see some of the recent "me too" changes in financial aid policy as a "solution" that needs time to be evaluated. I do hope you're wrong about the potential for the Rams cutting the final ties with the League over the AI/scholarship issues. This would be a lose-lose scenario.

[ngineer]

Most of the PL presidents really see football as the 2,000 pound gorilla that they would love to see leave their party. I say again, don't expect action on football scholarships anytime soon. My bet is that the academic poohbahs see some of the recent "me too" changes in financial aid policy as a "solution" that needs time to be evaluated. I do hope you're wrong about the potential for the Rams cutting the final ties with the League over the AI/scholarship issues. This would be a lose-lose scenario.

Agreed. That is why the PL (nee Colonial) was originally hatched in the 1980's. Likins, and others, saw the growing monster that needed feeding and felt that creating an 'Ivy-like' model the monster could be kept happy while he played in his own playpen and would be appeased by some intermittent forays with some other outside teams. However, as time passed, and maybe "unfortunately" with Lehigh's tremendous run from 1998-2004, we began believing we can play with the 'big boys' and want more of taste of that....It all comes down to philosophy and where the institutions want to be. Right now, we're trying to have it 'both ways' and we know that rarely occurs.

[colorless raider]

Administrative leadership at the PL headquarters is truly lacking. She just wants to keep her sweetheart job. We must rely on the presidents' and that is not a uplifting thought. I am afraid by the time they see"it"(losing) it will be too late. I sure hope I am wrong.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Either way, I wouldn't be surprised if there were a small window after the AI changes are made for the league to act on scholarships before Fordham starts looking at alternatives. The fact that the PL huddled up and teased us on scholarships and then just came back only with AI changes leaves me stunned and it's tough to argue that we shouldn't get more bang for the $3+MM we're spending on the program.

As much as I love the PL, I have trouble arguing with the anti-PL people at Fordham that the PL has good (or strong) enough leadership to move the league in the direction it needs to go in. Again, just my opinion but again it's very disheartening imo since the hope I had held out that the league could see and capitalize on the incredible brand possibilities of having an "Athletic Ivies" conference that was clear and distinct from the Ivy league is now replaced with a realization that we're more than happy to simply be the 'Ivies Goomah'.


Most of the PL presidents really see football as the 2,000 pound gorilla that they would love to see leave their party. I say again, don't expect action on football scholarships anytime soon. My bet is that the academic poohbahs see some of the recent "me too" changes in financial aid policy as a "solution" that needs time to be evaluated.


Agreed. That is why the PL (nee Colonial) was originally hatched in the 1980's. Likins, and others, saw the growing monster that needed feeding and felt that creating an 'Ivy-like' model the monster could be kept happy while he played in his own playpen and would be appeased by some intermittent forays with some other outside teams. However, as time passed, and maybe "unfortunately" with Lehigh's tremendous run from 1998-2004, we began believing we can play with the 'big boys' and want more of taste of that....It all comes down to philosophy and where the institutions want to be. Right now, we're trying to have it 'both ways' and we know that rarely occurs.

Great points all. There is one inconvenient fact, though, about this. Why would the PL insist on getting a bid to the playoffs if they didn't care about football? Shouldn't they have been more than content to play the Ivies every year in football with "non-scholarship" football? There has to be some level of hyper-competitor in the football "playpen" - more so than even the Ivy League. And when you change the words from "football" to "basketball" it makes even more sense. Heck, the League even allowed scholarships in basketball just to keep the League together and keep the NCAA autobid!

I don't know what is in the mind of the presidents, but I think it is very easy for them to fall back into the same old stigmas: football players are dumb, football players are a compromise to the academic integrity of the school. Remember, they're not reading Magic On The Mountain: The Appalachian State story (http://astore.amazon.com/lehifootnati-20/detail/1933251336/102-4587387-3642523). They're much more likely to be reading Dr. Bowen's book about how "elite" institutions should drop to D-III or the Rutgers faculty member's quixotic attempt to downgrade athletics. More to the point, athletics to them can (I'm not saying it is, but it can) seem like a distraction from their main goals.

Like Fordham said, it's a shame that the presidents can't get together and form a powerful vision about what Patriot League athletics is and should be - including guarantees of academic integrity, being the best students, playing the best schools, and winning championships. (I've done my best to articulate a PL vision here. (http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2008/05/patriot-league-call-to-action.html)) I really think that really needs to be done. Wouldn't that reassure some Fordham people that they won't be left at the altar? What about Georgetown if/when the Big East breaks up? I think Georgetown joining in all sports except men's and women's basketball would be a coup for the League. And maybe Villanova joins them, too - and maybe they bring football with them.

If schools can't agree on what they want the PL to be, how can they agree on football scholarships?

[DFW HOYA]

Like Fordham said, it's a shame that the presidents can't get together and form a powerful vision about what Patriot League athletics is and should be - including guarantees of academic integrity, being the best students, playing the best schools, and winning championships...I really think that really needs to be done. Wouldn't that reassure some Fordham people that they won't be left at the altar? What about Georgetown if/when the Big East breaks up? I think Georgetown joining in all sports except men's and women's basketball would be a coup for the League. And maybe Villanova joins them, too - and maybe they bring football with them.


In the early 2000's, with the Big East on shaky ground, there was talk that some in Georgetown saw the PL as a safe harbor for some sports, but the PL leadership rejected the idea of associate members in Olympic sports, so that ship has sailed. Georgetown and Villanova are not in the discussion.

The issue about the NEC going to 40 scholarships ought to be an alarm bell going off in Center Valley. Let's be clear about this: Fordham can play Stony Brook, Albany and Monmouth just as easily as Bucknell, Colgate, and Lafayette, and they are not spending close to $4 million a year in a vacuum.

[Ken_Z]

relax, all is well.