Can the Pioneer even have an AQ?

[gophoenix]

Misleading title, but the question stands.

I was wondering when putting together my site for the fight songs.....

Since this expansion leaves the Pioneer as the only conference available without an auto-bid (excluding SWAC and Ivy).... I was wondering, can they even have one? Since the Gateway and Pioneer are both run by the same conference overall, does that mean the Pioneer can never get an automatic bid even if they wanted one because the physical controlling conference (MVC I Think) already has one for the Gateway champ? Only 1 autobid has ever been granted to any conference in any sport.....

Just was something I was wondering about this when I realized they were both run by the same conference.

[TheValleyRaider]

I doubt it matters, because the only relationship the two seem to have is sharing the same commissioner. There doesn't appear to be any kind of scheduling arrangement between the leagues, or any other concrete evidence of a connection

[Syntax Error]

I think if the PFL asked for one they would get it these days.

[gophoenix]

I doubt it matters, because the only relationship the two seem to have is sharing the same commissioner. There doesn't appear to be any kind of scheduling arrangement between the leagues, or any other concrete evidence of a connection

But they share more than just the commish. They share the entire MVC staff with the Gateway conference. It just seems to me that a case could be made that the MVC can't get another automatic bid because of this.

[Syntax Error]

But they share more than just the commish. They share the entire MVC staff with the Gateway conference. It just seems to me that a case could be made that the MVC can't get another automatic bid because of this.I think it is just the commish they share. They have different sports information directors and the PFL one does not work in the MVC office.

[DetroitFlyer]

The PFL is one confused league IMHO. The last I checked, the PFL information service, ( including the website ), was still being run by a guy at Austin Peay, now of the OVC. If you want to know how well that is working out, check out the official PFL site to see when it was last updated.... I think you can still vote for who you think will be the 2007 PFL champion. I went with Dayton, LOL!! Any mention of the first player ever drafted by the NFL out of the PFL? Well, check for yourself....

The PFL is still under the delusion that they are blazing a trail for a new division of college football, non-scholarship, Division I football. In their collective twisted view, ( again IMHO ), some day the NCAA will recognize this new, unique division, and set up a separate playoff structure outside of the current FCS system.... One would think that after 15 seasons, even the most blind PFL administrator would have a clue that this approach is not going to work.... The MAAC is completely gone, the NEC has gone scholarship, leaving only the PFL.... Am I missing something here? Yeah, there is always talk about some school or another signing up to play non-scholarship, Division I football, heck there is even talk that the A-Sun might even form another league.... So, let's take what might be the best case situation.... The A-Sun forms a league, Detroit Mercy starts football, and enough teams exist for two non-scholarship conferences.... OK, for many years there were three non-scholarship conferences.... How did that work out PFL admins? Did the NCAA step up and create a new, unique level of college football, that validates your "pioneering" vision? Easy enough to answer, NO! So, if we get back to two conferences, what will be different? Another easy answer, NOTHING!!!!! The best one could hope for is maybe a replacement for the NEC champion for the Gridiron Classic. Yipee!!!!!

As a fan of the PFL, this frustrates me more than I can put into words. I am not alone, but to be honest, most of the fans at any PFL contest have no clue as to the details behind the PFL or FCS. To them, a PFL game is simply small college football, just like ANY OTHER non-FBS game. So, outside of what would appear to be a handful of rabble rousers in the PFL, there is no public pressure at all to change the status quo. Again, it simply makes my blood boil!

The only even remotely rational reason I have ever heard for the league's head in the sand strategy, ( as in not requesting an AQ ), is a potentially real fear that the Old Guard would use that to ram through an "OVC rule" type of minimum scholarship or funding requirement just to remain in FCS. If something like that came about, most if not all of the PFL schools just might fold up shop, not a risk the league is willing to take at this time....

This problem could be solved if the NCAA would simply offer an AQ to the PFL rather than trying to force the league's hand by making them request an AQ. Many here salivate over the prospect of an Ivy or SWAC champion receiving an AQ. I doubt that there would be much negative talk if the NCAA were to formally extend an AQ offer to either conference. Unfortunately, there would be an uproar by the Old Guard here if the same offer were extended to the PFL....

There is obviously some disagreement in the league relative to the playoffs. If the thoughts were all in agreement, then the PFL would take a stance like the Ivy or SWAC and simply refuse any and all bids. But, the PFL remains open to an at large, should one ever be extended. This would seemingly indicate that Jim Harbaugh's legacy in the PFL is still causing dissension in the ranks.

Of course Patty Viverito is very comfortable staying on the sidelines of the discussion and drawing her PFL paycheck. She has an AQ for the Gateway, and is happy to view the PFL as an inferior FCS conference, not worthy of an AQ.... Would things be different if the PFL had an independent leader, that really wanted to promote the PFL on an equal level as any FCS conference? Tough question to answer.... Patty has remained employed by the league, so a leader that did not take her view might end up getting fired.... Or, a leader like this might be able to build on the dissension in the league and overcome the status quo that is a huge disservice to the league, again IMHO!

And.... Before you ask, I have expressed my opinions to EVERY PFL AD and even the AD's of potential PFL members.... One lone voice in the wilderness fighting a very steep, uphill battle....

[gophoenix]

Why doesn't the Pioneer disband?

Davidson could come to the SoCon where they belong.
Jacksonville and Campbell to the Big South.
Morehead State to the OVC.
Marist to the NEC.
Drake, Dayton, Valpo, San Diego, Butler to Great West?

I just don't understand the viability of the Pioneer to be honest.

[jcf5445]

Why doesn't the Pioneer disband?

Davidson could come to the SoCon where they belong.
Jacksonville and Campbell to the Big South.
Morehead State to the OVC.
Marist to the NEC.
Drake, Dayton, Valpo, San Diego, Butler to Great West?

I just don't understand the viability of the Pioneer to be honest.

Because then those schools you mentioned would have to offer football scholarships.

[DetroitFlyer]

As I understand it, ALL league members are firmly committed to the non-scholarship model. It is the primary glue that bonds the league together. If a PFL school were to offer athletic scholarships for football, they would all play closer to home, ( USD in the Great West, Davidson in the SoCon, etc. ).

The PFL has a good deal going in many respects. The national footprint of the league is a big recruiting tool! Traveling to San Diego, Jacksonville, North Carolina and next year, New York, is very appealing for many student athletes. Granted, not as exciting as traveling to Dayton, but you get the point! Bussing around the Northeast or Midwest is not all that exciting for many kids.... The PFL also has a number of excellent academic schools, Davidson, Dayton, San Diego, Drake, Butler, Valparaiso, all have very good name recognition and academic reputations. Marist & maybe Campbell will help a bit as well, ( don't know much yet about Campbell )! JU and MSU have some work to do IMHO. For the most part, the facilities are top notch or will be shortly. Coaching is absolutely on a par with ANY FCS conference.

About the only thing lacking is the lack of an AQ....

[gophoenix]

Because then those schools you mentioned would have to offer football scholarships.

No they wouldn't. They would just struggle without them.

[DetroitFlyer]

No they wouldn't. They would just struggle without them.


I doubt that any athletic scholarship FCS conference would allow a member to join as a non-scholarship team.

[UAalum72]

Marist to the NEC.
Marist (or at least their fans) think they belong in the Patriot, not the NEC. I don't think the feelings are mutual.

[aceinthehole]

The PFL is one confused league IMHO. The last I checked, the PFL information service, ( including the website ), was still being run by a guy at Austin Peay, now of the OVC. If you want to know how well that is working out, check out the official PFL site to see when it was last updated.... I think you can still vote for who you think will be the 2007 PFL champion. I went with Dayton, LOL!! Any mention of the first player ever drafted by the NFL out of the PFL? Well, check for yourself....

The PFL is still under the delusion that they are blazing a trail for a new division of college football, non-scholarship, Division I football. In their collective twisted view, ( again IMHO ), some day the NCAA will recognize this new, unique division, and set up a separate playoff structure outside of the current FCS system.... One would think that after 15 seasons, even the most blind PFL administrator would have a clue that this approach is not going to work.... The MAAC is completely gone, the NEC has gone scholarship, leaving only the PFL.... Am I missing something here? Yeah, there is always talk about some school or another signing up to play non-scholarship, Division I football, heck there is even talk that the A-Sun might even form another league.... So, let's take what might be the best case situation.... The A-Sun forms a league, Detroit Mercy starts football, and enough teams exist for two non-scholarship conferences.... OK, for many years there were three non-scholarship conferences.... How did that work out PFL admins? Did the NCAA step up and create a new, unique level of college football, that validates your "pioneering" vision? Easy enough to answer, NO! So, if we get back to two conferences, what will be different? Another easy answer, NOTHING!!!!! The best one could hope for is maybe a replacement for the NEC champion for the Gridiron Classic. Yipee!!!!!

As a fan of the PFL, this frustrates me more than I can put into words. I am not alone, but to be honest, most of the fans at any PFL contest have no clue as to the details behind the PFL or FCS. To them, a PFL game is simply small college football, just like ANY OTHER non-FBS game. So, outside of what would appear to be a handful of rabble rousers in the PFL, there is no public pressure at all to change the status quo. Again, it simply makes my blood boil!

The only even remotely rational reason I have ever heard for the league's head in the sand strategy, ( as in not requesting an AQ ), is a potentially real fear that the Old Guard would use that to ram through an "OVC rule" type of minimum scholarship or funding requirement just to remain in FCS. If something like that came about, most if not all of the PFL schools just might fold up shop, not a risk the league is willing to take at this time....

This problem could be solved if the NCAA would simply offer an AQ to the PFL rather than trying to force the league's hand by making them request an AQ. Many here salivate over the prospect of an Ivy or SWAC champion receiving an AQ. I doubt that there would be much negative talk if the NCAA were to formally extend an AQ offer to either conference. Unfortunately, there would be an uproar by the Old Guard here if the same offer were extended to the PFL....

There is obviously some disagreement in the league relative to the playoffs. If the thoughts were all in agreement, then the PFL would take a stance like the Ivy or SWAC and simply refuse any and all bids. But, the PFL remains open to an at large, should one ever be extended. This would seemingly indicate that Jim Harbaugh's legacy in the PFL is still causing dissension in the ranks.

Of course Patty Viverito is very comfortable staying on the sidelines of the discussion and drawing her PFL paycheck. She has an AQ for the Gateway, and is happy to view the PFL as an inferior FCS conference, not worthy of an AQ.... Would things be different if the PFL had an independent leader, that really wanted to promote the PFL on an equal level as any FCS conference? Tough question to answer.... Patty has remained employed by the league, so a leader that did not take her view might end up getting fired.... Or, a leader like this might be able to build on the dissension in the league and overcome the status quo that is a huge disservice to the league, again IMHO!

And.... Before you ask, I have expressed my opinions to EVERY PFL AD and even the AD's of potential PFL members.... One lone voice in the wilderness fighting a very steep, uphill battle....

Your best post yet! Pretty fair and informed.

My only disagreement with you is that you are putting too much blame on Patty and not enough on the individual schools. If the PFL membership really, really wanted an AQ all they have to do is tell Patty to ask for it! She works for them.

All the schools in the PFL believe in this non-scholly format and have no interest in uppsetting the apple cart and asking for the AQ. It sucks, but its the truth.

(Also, the NCAA is not handing out AQs like Halloween candy. You must ask for it! They aren't giving it to the Ivy or SWAC either unless they make a request. The NCAA has NO REASON to be proactive on this matter)

[Franks Tanks]

Marist (or at least their fans) think they belong in the Patriot, not the NEC. I don't think the feelings are mutual.

If they would come over in all sports we can talk. They bring nothing to the table as a FB only member IMO

[OL FU]

Why doesn't the Pioneer disband?

Davidson could come to the SoCon where they belong.



Oh please, just one year. That's all I askxmadx xmadx xasswhipx xasswhipx xnodx xnodx

[gophoenix]

I doubt that any athletic scholarship FCS conference would allow a member to join as a non-scholarship team.

Why not? Charleston Southern and UT-Martin used to be much like that. I'd be willing to bet the Great West would take any D-I team to help them get to a stable 6 members. Scholarship or not.


Oh please, just one year. That's all I askxmadx xmadx xasswhipx xasswhipx xnodx xnodx

I think most of us in the SoCon are right there with you.

[Model Citizen]

One lone voice in the wilderness fighting a very steep, uphill battle....

If a Flyer crashes in cyberspace with no one to hear him, does he make a sound?

[Model Citizen]

When I read the title of this thread, I thought it might be about the technical requirements of an automatic bid. Aside from the fact that an automatic bid will require regime change in St. Louis, does the PFL qualify?

Isn't there something in the rules about FULL round robin play for single-division conferences? It's my understanding that when Marist becomes the league's 10th member next year, the PFL schedule will remain at eight games per team. Would this be a problem for an AQ?

http://goredfoxes.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/022808aaa.html

[UAalum72]

Isn't there something in the rules about FULL round robin play for single-division conferences? It's my understanding that when Marist becomes the league's 10th member next year, the PFL schedule will remain at eight games per team. Would this be a problem for an AQ?

http://goredfoxes.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/022808aaa.html
If there is, the CAA and OVC don't qualify, unless two divisions make it unnecessary, or if there's a waiver to apply for

[danefan]

If there is, the CAA and OVC don't qualify, unless two divisions make it unnecessary, or if there's a waiver to apply for



Additional Football Criteria. Conferences must conduct regular-season, round-robin play among the members to determine the champion. The Division I football committee may grant exceptions to the round-robin requirement subject to approval of the NCAA Executive Committee.


Page 12:
http://www.collegesportingnews.com/articles/artfiles/89142_2007_d1_football_playoff_handbook.pdf

[Model Citizen]

Ok, I think I see the provision for a waiver. Yet this may provide cover for Viverito, who doesn't want the PFL to apply for an AQ.

[danefan]

Ok, I think I see the provision for a waiver. Yet this may provide cover for Viverito, who doesn't want the PFL to apply for an AQ.

It's Viverito's (sp?) agenda, which means, in turn, that its the Presidents of the PFL schools' agenda.

In fact, the agenda is quite clear that they want nothing to do with the playoffs by the fact that employ a part-time commissioner. No way could two conferences with playoff aspirations share a commissioner. It is a total conflict of interest. No playoffs - no problem.

I think the PFL would be better off (recruiting and otherwise) if they renounced the playoff system because of academic concerns (read "We are following the IVY"). It gives a little more credibility to the league's "student first, athlete second" mission than their behind-the-scenes avoidance policy.

[DetroitFlyer]

It's Viverito's (sp?) agenda, which means, in turn, that its the Presidents of the PFL schools' agenda.

In fact, the agenda is quite clear that they want nothing to do with the playoffs by the fact that employ a part-time commissioner. No way could two conferences with playoff aspirations share a commissioner. It is a total conflict of interest. No playoffs - no problem.

I think the PFL would be better off (recruiting and otherwise) if they renounced the playoff system because of academic concerns (read "We are following the IVY"). It gives a little more credibility to the league's "student first, athlete second" mission than their behind-the-scenes avoidance policy.


Maybe, but.... The PFL will never be the Ivy League. The Patriot League tried to copy the Ivy League and it looks to me like it has caused them nothing but trouble. The PL at least has good geography and fairly like minded academic missions. The PFL, not so much. I also disagree that the agenda is clear.... If the agenda were in fact clear, the PFL would not remain open to an at large bid. This tells me that some in the PFL want to remain open to the possibility of playoff participation. As for the commish status.... Of course I would like to have a dedicated, full time commish.... But, unlike the NEC, the PFL is not an all sports league, it is only football.... Being as the PFL exists to minimize costs, ( as does all of FCS by the way ), I doubt that the league wants to pay NEC like wages to a commish that would really only have a part time job.... Maybe some retired person or a rich person looking for something to do.... A dedicated commish could be found, but I do not think it is as easy as it sounds....

Of course the current structure results in a conflict of interest, especially from a die hard fan's perspective. A PFL AQ could easily suck up a Gateway at large. Of course a PFL at large could do the same...! Now, when is the last time you remember Patty campaigning for a PFL at large bid? If you answered "never", I think you are correct. Jim Harbaugh campaigned hard in 2006 and one would have to think that the USD administration was behind him.... Rob Ash indicated that one of the reasons he left Drake after many years to join a very troubled Montana State program was playoff access.... Of course both of those "advocates" are gone.... Are there others in the PFL? Probably, but I'm not certain who they are these days....

[Model Citizen]

Right...only one Ivy League, but the PFL should make its playoff position clear. And it is OUT of the playoffs. That's reality. Don't let some committee remind everyone, every single freaking year.

Just say, "we don't participate in the playoffs."

If the leadership ever wants to go for an AQ, then things would change.

[DetroitFlyer]

Right...only one Ivy League, but the PFL should make its playoff position clear. And it is OUT of the playoffs. That's reality. Don't let some committee remind everyone, every single freaking year.

Just say, "we don't participate in the playoffs."

If the leadership ever wants to go for an AQ, then things would change.


Why do you think this is better for the league? I have heard various thoughts on this topic and I am interested in what you think.

[Model Citizen]

Pretty simple, really. How may times do you want to read something like this?

http://www.i-aa.org/section_front.asp?arttypeid=561

A PFL team isn't going to get an at-large bid, and the NCAA doesn't respect our league schedule. This looks bad.

W/o an automatic bid, the only honorable thing to do is withdraw from the playoff discussion.

[BearsCountry]

Why doesn't the Pioneer disband?
Drake to Great West?


If Drake went with schollys they would go to the Gateway and the MVC would be back as a football conference.