Montana AD Expresses Concerns About Playoff Expansion

[Green26]

The Montana athletic director, Jim O'Day, has expressed some concerns about playoff expansion.

"I don't know at this point that I'm real in support of this,” O'Day said Friday. “One of the major concerns for us is how are we going to fit this into our schedule. And for us, selfishly, it could mean changes to the Montana-Montana State game being at the end of the year.

“There are teams that are well into scheduling for 2010, so you might have to make buyouts. It also could mean more class time away, which I'm not in favor of.”

The expansion also means the FCS season will remain at 11 games over 12 weeks, allowing for a bye week. The Big Sky, which increased from eight to nine teams in 2006, has been able to keep a bye at the end of the season, and that has allowed the Griz-Cat game to be played as a regular-season finale."

"In the end the pros outweigh the cons, said [Big Sky commissioner] Fullerton. The Division I FCS increased its playoff field from 12 to 16 teams in 1987. Since then the FCS, formerly Division I-AA, has added 28 teams and now numbers 122."

“I actually think longterm, the growth in Division I football is going to be at our level,” Fullerton said. “I think our level is much more efficient.”

http://missoulian.com/articles/2008/05/03/sports/sports02.txt

[Grizzaholic]

I have the exact same concern about the final game of the regular season. I would like for it to stay the same but in a couple of years....who knows.

[Jerbearasu]

“There are teams that are well into scheduling for 2010, so you might have to make buyouts. It also could mean more class time away, which I'm not in favor of.”

At least now we've been warned... Any excuse for a buyout...
















I am completely joking but I couldn't let that one go!xlolx xlolx xlolx

[Ronbo]

Montana wanted a 12 game season. Defeated.

Montana opposed playoff expansion. Passed.

Montana gets the 3rd seed and has to play the SoCon Champions in the 1st round.

I'll tell you the AD is on the verge of becoming dissolutioned with the FCS. And so is the Griz Nation, 53% to 46% for a move up in the latest poll on eGriz. In 2002 it would have been 90% to 10% against.

In four years I wonder how many top programs will announce they are bailing?

[Ronbo]

Montana wanted a 12 game season. Defeated.

Montana opposed playoff expansion. Passed.

Montana gets the 3rd seed and has to play the SoCon Champions in the 1st round.

I'll tell you the AD is on the verge of becoming dissolutioned with the FCS. And so is the Griz Nation, 53% to 46% for a move up in the latest poll on eGriz. In 2002 it would have been 90% to 10% against.

In four years I wonder how many top programs will announce they are bailing?

[Eyes of Old Main]

In four years I wonder how many top programs will announce they are bailing to become also-rans in the Sun Belt?

Fixed it for you, Ronbo. :D

I understand why Montana would want a 12th game (more revenue), I understand why they don't want the playoffs expanded (more competition), I understand why they could be mad about last years playoff draw (Wofford could say the same thing) and I understand why they want to keep their game with MSU as the last game of the season (tradition).

What I don't understand, is why the grass is so much greener on the other side. How did the move up go for Idaho?

[blueballs]

Montana wanted a 12 game season. Defeated.

Montana opposed playoff expansion. Passed.

Montana gets the 3rd seed and has to play the SoCon Champions in the 1st round.

I'll tell you the AD is on the verge of becoming dissolutioned with the FCS. And so is the Griz Nation, 53% to 46% for a move up in the latest poll on eGriz. In 2002 it would have been 90% to 10% against.

In four years I wonder how many top programs will announce they are bailing?

You'll find many of the same concerns among the GSU faithful... especially after the draw GSU got in 2001, 2004 and 2005 and UNH getting in ahead of GSU in 2007. In GSU's case it is not necessarily the AD, it is the fan base and the major boosters.

Facility upgrades are ongoing, the study has been commissioned... it is just a matter of time.

[Dane96]

xviolinx xblahblahx

Wait until they see the monstrous budgets and even BIGGER deficit that would await them in BCS football for NO SHOT....REPEAT NO SHOT...and a NATIONAL TITLE UNDER THE CURRENT ARRANGEMENT, barring entry into the PAC-10, whic is unlikely.


Montana wanted a 12 game season. Defeated.

Montana opposed playoff expansion. Passed.

Montana gets the 3rd seed and has to play the SoCon Champions in the 1st round.

I'll tell you the AD is on the verge of becoming dissolutioned with the FCS. And so is the Griz Nation, 53% to 46% for a move up in the latest poll on eGriz. In 2002 it would have been 90% to 10% against.

In four years I wonder how many top programs will announce they are bailing?

[McNeese_beat]

Any policy that encourages your most successful program to move up is bad policy. It assures a future of losing your top programs.

Unless the FCS wants to become simply a stepping stone for programs progressing towards the FBS, it has to identify what is ideal about being in the FCS and accentuate those characteristics. One, you have to be able to allow top programs that draw well to play the maximum number of games to maximize their draw. Two, you have to find a way for the post-season to be financially rewarding, giving power programs somethign to show for their on-field success.

Otherwise, the FCS is what the small-time FBS programs say it is, legislated mediocrity.

[CopperCat]

Montana wanted a 12 game season. Defeated.

Montana opposed playoff expansion. Passed.

Montana gets the 3rd seed and has to play the SoCon Champions in the 1st round.

I'll tell you the AD is on the verge of becoming dissolutioned with the FCS. And so is the Griz Nation, 53% to 46% for a move up in the latest poll on eGriz. In 2002 it would have been 90% to 10% against.

In four years I wonder how many top programs will announce they are bailing?

You griz fans have gotten everything you wanted and more, and still you find room to complain about something. Good lord, just shutup and enjoy it. I know I would be. xblahblahx

Egriz is the biggest xbandwagonx of griz fans out there, I put absolutely no stock in those numbers. This really has very little to do with the AD, and everything to do with how the Griz play. A first round exit in the 07' playoffs says that the Griz are nowhere near ready to go to FBS. I repeat, the Griz WILL NOT BE MOVING UP ANYTIME SOON. You may think you have the stadium and the allure, which you might, but the team doesn't get the superstar athletes that it needs to move up. Not to mention the budgeting problems and crappy conference the Griz would end up in.

[Dane96]

For Griz and GSU fans:

10,000 students and a 14 million dollar TOTAL ATHLETICS budget- Montana (5mm on football).
14,500 students and a 7 million dollar TOTAL ATHLETICS budget- Georgia Southern (2.4mm on football).

26,000 students and a 16 million dollar....FOOTBALL BUDGET- GEORGIA
26,000 students and a 16 million dollar.....FOOTBALL BUDGET- LSU
22,000 students and a 26 million dollar....FOOTBALL BUDGET- VA TECH
16,000 students and a 18 million dollar....FOOTBALL BUDGET- Oklahoma
11,000 students and a 9 million dollar....FOOTBALL BUDGET- BOISE STATE
8,000 Students and a 4 million dollar....FOOTBALL BUDGET- IDAHO
15,000 Students and a 8 million dollar...FOOTBALL BUDGET- UTAH
15,000 Students and a 12 million dollar....FOOTBALL BUDGET- UCONN
9,000 Students and a 16 million dollar....FOOTBALL BUDGET- BC

The bolded figures are important. You are more similar to these schools in size. However, much different results among the group Idaho...clearly where they are because they spend crap on Football. Boise State and Utah...they are going to get in the rankings and do ok...but never play for a title. BC, IS PLAYING FOR KEEPS...and they are at best going to be a top 15 team perennially. UCONN...will upgrade significantly.

As the budgets increase (most of the top 10 big-time football programs are at or over 100mm in funding for total athletics), the Boise States, UTAH's, and Idaho's will have a much bigger road to climb. THE BC's and UCONNS will find it difficult but have the resources to compete.

[Ronbo]

Football made 7.5 million in 2006-2007. With expenses of 4.8 million. So I guess you could say the budget is 5 million in expenses. But we make 7.5 million.

[ButlerGSU]

For Griz and GSU fans:

10,000 students and a 14 million dollar TOTAL ATHLETICS budget- Montana (5mm on football).
14,500 students and a 7 million dollar TOTAL ATHLETICS budget- Georgia Southern (2.4mm on football).

26,000 students and a 16 million dollar....FOOTBALL BUDGET- GEORGIA
26,000 students and a 16 million dollar.....FOOTBALL BUDGET- LSU
22,000 students and a 26 million dollar....FOOTBALL BUDGET- VA TECH
16,000 students and a 18 million dollar....FOOTBALL BUDGET- Oklahoma
11,000 students and a 9 million dollar....FOOTBALL BUDGET- BOISE STATE
8,000 Students and a 4 million dollar....FOOTBALL BUDGET- IDAHO
15,000 Students and a 8 million dollar...FOOTBALL BUDGET- UTAH
15,000 Students and a 12 million dollar....FOOTBALL BUDGET- UCONN
9,000 Students and a 16 million dollar....FOOTBALL BUDGET- BC

The bolded figures are important. You are more similar to these schools in size. However, much different results among the group Idaho...clearly where they are because they spend crap on Football. Boise State and Utah...they are going to get in the rankings and do ok...but never play for a title. BC, IS PLAYING FOR KEEPS...and they are at best going to be a top 15 team perennially. UCONN...will upgrade significantly.

As the budgets increase (most of the top 10 big-time football programs are at or over 100mm in funding for total athletics), the Boise States, UTAH's, and Idaho's will have a much bigger road to climb. THE BC's and UCONNS will find it difficult but have the resources to compete.

How old is that data? Georgia Southern reported 16,490 students as of 2007...

[FCS Go!]

Every year that Montana doesn't go to the NC, the move up folks pick up more support. First round losses are especially hard on the Griz faithful as we look forward to the playoffs so much.

The playoff expansion will probably hurt the Griz in the pocketbook but Montana will still get their homegame barring a disastrous regular season.

[Dane96]

Football made 7.5 million in 2006-2007. With expenses of 4.8 million. So I guess you could say the budget is 5 million in expenses. But we make 7.5 million.

Ronbo-- the numbers I give are what your school reported as expenses. I am not making them up.

All those schools make money on football (exept Idaho).

[Dane96]

How old is that data? Georgia Southern reported 16,490 students as of 2007...

The data is LAST YEAR...and what the school reported. It does not include graduate students in the figure. Not sure if that changes your number.

Either way, it doesn't matter. There is A MASSIVE FINANCIAL COMPONENT TO BECOME SOMEWHAT OF A FBS PLAYER. To have a chance at doing anything near the TOP 15 on a regular basis is AN ASTRONOMICAL COMMITTMENT.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Football made 7.5 million in 2006-2007. With expenses of 4.8 million. So I guess you could say the budget is 5 million in expenses. But we make 7.5 million.

I think the point that D96 is trying to make is that the football expenses alone from some of the newer/lower FBS teams are as much or more than the expenses of the entire Montana Athletic Department.

[Dane96]

Bingo. UNH Alumn with the assist.

BTW, some sick hockey being played right now between Pittsburgh and the Rangers...totally irrelevant to the conversation but for the assist remark.

[Jerbearasu]

The data is LAST YEAR...and what the school reported. It does not include graduate students in the figure. Not sure if that changes your number.

Either way, it doesn't matter. There is A MASSIVE FINANCIAL COMPONENT TO BECOME SOMEWHAT OF A FBS PLAYER. To have a chance at doing anything near the TOP 15 on a regular basis is AN ASTRONOMICAL COMMITTMENT.

Boise State was in the FCS 10 years ago. Their budget jumped tremendously when they moved up because they got more support from the community. If Montana were to move up people would get behind them. There have been a lot of flops in the move up but some have had pretty good success as well. Troy State never even appeared in a NC game in the FCS level and they are having pretty good success in the FBS. They may never win a National Championship at the FBS level but it is possible you could see them one day in the Tostitos Fiesta Bowl beating the likes of an Oklahoma...

[Dane96]

Ok..agree to an extent...but riddle me this:

1- How is Montana going to come up with at least 9 million more JUST to be competitive in Football. Remember, Boise is at 9....but the number seems to be around 14 to be competitve. They will have to keep up with the JONESES, as would Montana.

2- What industry is in Boise that allows for HUGE INFLUX of $$$?

Answer-- NANOTECH, SEMICONDUCTORS, and COMPUTER SCIENCE CORPS-- Sun Microsysems, Oracle, etc.

Boise was voted as one of the top places to work and live in the US. With a 120mm tax cut for businesses, more will be moving there. That translates into more $$$ that could be influxed into BSU. More $$$ for more fans...more concessions...etc.
Boise ranks 6th in the Nation for Corporate headquarters of national companies located in one city. Micron, Albertson's, are among others mentioned above. (The ones mentioned above have MAJOR facilities in Boise but are not corporate headquarters).
Bottom line-- THEY HAVE MORE $$$ to play with in the State of Idaho with all the people coming in, living, and spending $$$ in the city of Boise.

Where is Montana coming up with the $$$. Stadium expansion can only bring in so much money.

As for Troy, going 27-21 having most of those wins come in the SUN BELCH or against FCS teams isnt exactly doing "WELL." They have horrid attendance (not listed....but actual). Granted they have a few upsets or two.

You are also missing one big thing-- Football talent rich areas they recruit from. Where will Montana be getting FBS level players? California. Join the club.

[uofmman1122]

You are also missing one big thing-- Football talent rich areas they recruit from. Where will Montana be getting FBS level players? California. Join the club.Well, considering we had 3 Native Montanans go to the NFL from the Griz just this season (4 most likely if Bagley hadn't gotten hurt), I'd say we're not doing too bad with our Montana boys.

I also didn't realize the subject of Montana moving up was such a heated topic for an Albany Fan. xlolx

[Dane96]

First, I could care less about whether you move up or not. I like Montana-- we have a nice relationship with you guys.

What I do argue against is the thought that FBS world is better for a school because the FCS Playoffs may cause you guys to lose tremendous $$. The conversation is about SPENDING, TALENT, and POTENTIAL.

The potential to FAIL IS GREATER THAN THE POTENTIAL TO SUCCEED. SEE: MARSHALL, FAU, and TROY. They are all far from a huge success. SEE: IDAHO, FIU, THE REST OF THE SUN BELCH.

The few that have succeeded were UNIQUE EXCEPTIONS: UCONN, UCF, USF, and BOISE STATE. The first two will be joined by FAU and FIU eventually because of SHEER TALENT they can recruit. UCONN-- hoops supported. Boise...lots of $$$ to throw around.

Montana, at best, becomes a BOISE. That, however will take a MASSIVE FINANCIAL COMMITMENT in scholarships, facilities, coaching, recruiting, etc.; Most will occur outside the state (e.g. getting recruits and coaches).

Guy...every state has NFL talent. Most would agree, however, more football talent resides in Texas, Georgia, Florida, California, Alabama, Louisiana, and Pennsylvania than any other states. Some on that list are arguable, however the point is....Montana will be recruiting out-of-state for FBS talent if they want to compete in the TOP 20.

Anything said otherwise is a to be taken with a grain of salt.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

For one thing I can't see Montana moving up without our brothers from Bozeman. If both institutions were to move up together to a conference then it would seem possible. If La Tech were to move over to the Sun Belt and make a spot then I think that PSU would be vying hard for one spot and a move up. If two opened up in the WAC then it would be possible that the MT schools would make the trip to the WAC. If the WAC were to go to 12 teams though then I think it would all over and the move up would be inevitable.

[Dane96]

I can see that happening!

[ursus arctos horribilis]

I can see that happening!

WTF? Are you just trying to fvdking argue today or what es eating at you? You couldn't tell from the tone of my post that I was saying that it seems pretty improbable considering the way things would have to break for this all to come about? Sit back and take a chill pill instead of the dismissive tone. Nothing will be done at UofM without the Athletic Dept. thoroughly thinking out all of the issues you have brought up here along with what is sure to be a host of others that you have not considered.

[Dane96]

I meant I seriously think I could see it happening. I wasnt being a dick on that. If the WAC opens up...it would probably be a yes vote for both Montana and Montana State to move up.

I was serious.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

I meant I seriously think I could see it happening. I wasnt being a dick on that. If the WAC opens up...it would probably be a yes vote for both Montana and Montana State to move up.

I was serious.

Oh, well then excuse me while I take my chill pill. I thought you were trying to bloody my nose there. I should have known better you are passionate in you arguments but reasonable man nonetheless.

[Jerbearasu]

Guy...every state has NFL talent. Most would agree, however, more football talent resides in Texas, Georgia, Florida, California, Alabama, Louisiana, and Pennsylvania than any other states. Some on that list are arguable, however the point is....Montana will be recruiting out-of-state for FBS talent if they want to compete in the TOP 20.

All of those states have a lot of competition to get the top prospects too... Texas: UT, A&M, TTU, TCU, etc, plus dealing with OU, OSU, and other out of state schools coming in. Same goes with all of the other states that you mentioned. In Montana, the Grizzlies are THE show. It is all relative in that aspect... Your point is taken though

Also, I don't really count Marshall as a bust. After the move up they have had a few Heisman hopefuls, a few all-americans, I think they won 5 or 6 bowl games in a row, went in to play a good KSU team and won. Yeah they aren't doing so well right now but they will turn it around, every program goes through ups and downs...

[CopperCat]

All of those states have a lot of competition to get the top prospects too... Texas: UT, A&M, TTU, TCU, etc, plus dealing with OU, OSU, and other out of state schools coming in. Same goes with all of the other states that you mentioned. In Montana, the Grizzlies are THE show. It is all relative in that aspect... Your point is taken though

Also, I don't really count Marshall as a bust. After the move up they have had a few Heisman hopefuls, a few all-americans, I think they won 5 or 6 bowl games in a row, went in to play a good KSU team and won. Yeah they aren't doing so well right now but they will turn it around, every program goes through ups and downs...

Since when is an ASU fan the resident expert on FCS football in the state of Montana? This may have been the case some years ago, but that has changed and is still changing.

[MACHIAVELLI]

The Montana athletic director, Jim O'Day, has expressed some concerns about playoff expansion.

"I don't know at this point that I'm real in support of this,” O'Day said Friday. “One of the major concerns for us is how are we going to fit this into our schedule. And for us, selfishly, it could mean changes to the Montana-Montana State game being at the end of the year.


http://missoulian.com/articles/2008/05/03/sports/sports02.txt

Sounds familiar.

[uofmman1122]

Since when is an ASU fan the resident expert on FCS football in the state of Montana? This may have been the case some years ago, but that has changed and is still changing.I agree, the Bobcats are coming back, and I'd defend the Cats over any other team trying to bring them down, but don't kid yourself! xlolx:pxsmiley_wix

All jokes aside, FTG06' is right. Jerbearasu doesn't have a clue as to how it is in Montana. There are just as many kids that dream of growing up and playing for the Griz as there are that dream of being a Bobcat. The Griz may have had much more success, but at least in MT, the Cats aren't far behind. At least not anymore, now that the series over the last 6 years is dead even.

[Green26]

Montana is not going to move up, and isn't even considering it. The President opposes it, as does the AD. The vast majority of the fans are not in favor of it. If FCS or the playoffs were to start falling apart, or D-I divisions were to change, then, of course, Montana would look at other options.

The "poll" Ronbo cites is an egriz poll conducted recently. 69 votes have been cast for moving up. This number presumably includes Bobcat and other fans, as well as people with multiple accounts. At this time of the year, a higher percentage of the fanatics are looking at the cite, and many fans won't be looking until pre-season practice starts. It is true, however, that there is probably some small amount of increased sentiment for moving us.

In terms of FCS viability, I found the comment of the Big Sky commissioner to be interesting:

“I actually think longterm, the growth in Division I football is going to be at our level,” Fullerton said. “I think our level is much more efficient.”

Personally, I would oppose moving up for multiple reasons, the most important of which is the risk that moving up would ultimately result in less success, lost attendance and eventually lost atmosphere.

[Ronbo]

Green26 has been arguing against any move for as long as I've known him. As much as I like him he has a terrible fear of playing up and losing. If we were NAIA Green would be afraid to move to Division II as we might lose a couple games. He needs to be that BIG FISH. There is a small percentage of Griz fans that love bragging rights so much by bullying the Big Sky that they can't imagine not being the 12 year old bully in the 6 year old's sandbox.

By the way Green, a poll is usually a PRETTY GOOD indicator of the general population. If it wasn't they wouldn't be used.

The anti move boys LOVED the poll when it was 70% to 30% against a move up. Now that more people like the idea the poll means nothing.xlolx xlolx


Personally, I would oppose moving up for multiple reasons, the most important of which is the risk that moving up would ultimately result in less success, lost attendance and eventually lost atmosphere

This is the weakest argument they use. xlolx They think playing Fort Lewis and beating them 49-0 is better atmosphere than having Hawaii, Fresno State, Boise State, Wyoming, Utah, BYU, Washington State, etc. etc. coming into the stadium. It's hilarious.

[AZGrizFan]

Oh, well then excuse me while I take my chill pill. I thought you were trying to bloody my nose there. I should have known better you are passionate in you arguments but reasonable man nonetheless.

Jesus, Ursus. It's no wonder you and your brothers get into such fistfights....you react like frog legs on a lightening rod!xeyebrowx xeyebrowx xeyebrowx

[Green26]

Ronbo, your "poll", in which there were 69 votes in favor of moving up, is not an indicator of anything. There's no way of knowing how many of the participants were even Griz fans. There are 23,000 Griz fans in the stadium every Saturday in the fall. There are tens of thousands of other Griz fans who don't go to the games. 6900 in favor of moving up might be meaningful; 69 isn't. For the record, Ronbo, you have been the person advocating for moving up for years, and you have made 100's of posts in favor of it over the years.

Moving up or not has nothing to do with fear of the competition. It's a risk analysis. What's the risk of messing up a great thing by chasing something that probably isn't attainable, or may not be attainable, or is perhaps even a windmill. It's also a financial analysis. It costs alot of money to get a program in position to move up, and to move up successfully, unless you're okay with being a crappy FCS team like Idaho. I don't think Montana has the population or corporations to allow the raising of enough money to become a successful I-A team.

Montana has such a great thing going and great atmosphere, that there are now alot of soft or bandwagon fans. Those fans are not going to attend every game, or attend at all, if Montana isn't winning most of its games, in my view. Jeez, lots of fans complain now about only being 11-1 last year, and not winning by a high enough scoring margin, or not winning with a passing offense. Most Montana fans love the playoffs. It would be an awful downer to give up the playoffs.

Montana has over 50 Montana kids on the roster every year, and lots of starters from Montana. In I-A, Montana would have few starters and far fewer Montana kids on the roster. This would reduce fan interest, and would also cause issues with the state legislature's funding of UM and UM athletics. I have talked to various members of the board of regents over the years. They say moving up to I-A would be a non-starter. Way too much financial risk.

I think moving up for Montana, and Montana State not moving up, would create a huge political problem, at the board of regents and state legislature level. Alot of people agree with me. Don't know that for sure, tho.

Moving to I-A would result in Montana playing far fewer home games. Montana usually has 7 home games plus 1 - 3 playoff games, i.e. sometimes 10 home games. Having only 5 or 6 home games would be less fun for fans, plus would significantly reduce revenue for the program. The loss of those home games would likely offset conference revenue, even after Montana was in position to get conference revenue, which is usually a number of years after the transition.

On the financial side, a prior AD said it would cost $3-5 million per year in additional revenue to get in position to move up, and almost that much more annually for the foreseeable future after moving up. More sports, more scholarships, more title IX sports and scholarships, more out of state scholarships, more and higher coaches salaries, more and better facilities, bigger recruiting budgets, fewer home games, etc.

I don't see this as being feasible, and I don't see the board of regents or the state legislature taking the risk.

As for Montana's success, I think they could compete in I-A, but I don't see them being a top conference team every year--even after the transition years. Even Boise St was not successful and had losing records in its first 4 years. Boise has done well since then, but I wouldn't trade what Montana has now for what Boise has.

For every fan that is mad about a weak OOC schedule, the conference or a playoff loss, there are 4 standing in line to get that fan's season ticket.

Lastly, I think college sports should be more about how it's done at the lowel levels. I-A is too professional and money-oriented. Sport should not dominate the university; academics should. I-AA, as well as the lower divisions, is more what sport should be.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Jesus, Ursus. It's no wonder you and your brothers get into such fistfights....you react like frog legs on a lightening rod!xeyebrowx xeyebrowx xeyebrowx

HEY, **** YIOU AND THE HORSE YOU RODE IN ON1 WHAT ARE YOU...oh, wait a minute. The doctor told me that situations like this might occur. Now what were the instructions from those nice men in those fancy white suits at the hospital again?

Oh yeah...
1
2
3
3
3
3
3
3
3
3

I sure wish I woulda learned to count to ten.

[Proud Griz Man]

Green26 has been arguing against any move for as long as I've known him. As much as I like him he has a terrible fear of playing up and losing. If we were NAIA Green would be afraid to move to Division II as we might lose a couple games. He needs to be that BIG FISH. There is a small percentage of Griz fans that love bragging rights so much by bullying the Big Sky that they can't imagine not being the 12 year old bully in the 6 year old's sandbox.

By the way Green, a poll is usually a PRETTY GOOD indicator of the general population. If it wasn't they wouldn't be used.

The anti move boys LOVED the poll when it was 70% to 30% against a move up. Now that more people like the idea the poll means nothing.xlolx xlolx



This is the weakest argument they use. xlolx They think playing Fort Lewis and beating them 49-0 is better atmosphere than having Hawaii, Fresno State, Boise State, Wyoming, Utah, BYU, Washington State, etc. etc. coming into the stadium. It's hilarious.

Weak smack Ronbo. Truthfully, you post these things but refuse to answer the question about UM finding the necessary $2-3 million annually to move up to a WAC or Mountain West. Its not hilarious. xnonono2x

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Ronbo is off his rocker with this one. A poll on egriz having some validity as to what the majority of the Griz fans think is absolutely ludicrous. I don't think I actually know one Griz that has ever said moving up seems like a good idea to them. Doesn't mean I don't know one but everyone that I talk to is always talking about the playoffs and seeds and so on. Even if there was a majority of fans that wanted to move up what the hell does that have to do with what the university is going to do. Not a whole lot.

[Ronbo]

You guys want to see the program collapse? Wait till the Griz go 5-6 for 3 years straight in the Big Sky and miss the playoffs. The attendance will go to 12,000 if we are lucky. You'll get seats on the 40-50 yard line and the ticket prices will drop to $12 because they will be begging people to attend the games.

It's not if, it's when. The program will decline. Every dominate program in the Big Sky always has. It only takes one bad coach. Ask the basketball program "What happened?"

MINOR LEAGUE sports work as long as you are winning. They fail miserably when you start losing. Look at the average attendance thoughout the FCS. Schools brag when they get 10,000 fans at a game.

[FCS Go!]

Green and Proud Griz:

Y'all need to stop talking sense. Facts and finances don't mean a thing to the WACheads.

FCS= small-penised cowards.
WAC= brawny, two-fisted, manly Hercules!

Good luck talking them out of that paradigm.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

You guys want to see the program collapse? Wait till the Griz go 5-6 for 3 years straight in the Big Sky and miss the playoffs. The attendance will go to 12,000 if we are lucky. You'll get seats on the 40-50 yard line and the ticket prices will drop to $12 because they will be begging people to attend the games.

It's not if, it's when. The program will decline. Every dominate program in the Big Sky always has. It only takes one bad coach. Ask the basketball program "What happened?"

MINOR LEAGUE sports work as long as you are winning. They fail miserably when you start losing. Look at the average attendance thoughout the FCS. Schools brag when they get 10,000 fans at a game.

Same old dumb ass argument that I've heard from a couple of guys for the last 10 years or so. Of course they are usually bitching about the ticket prices. It don't hold any water and is total BS. I've been in that stadium since there were 6-7k people going to the games. In 1992 when we started off the season at 2-5 I didn't notice a big drop off in the attendance for the last four games that year. I also didn't notice that it affected the attendance in the 1993 season if you are trying to say that there is a lag effect. If we had a few bad years and it pulled the numbers down I would expect that. I would think the 5-6 years that you are talking about would be a lot more likely with a move to 1A. Wouldn't you?

[I-AA Fan]

Jim O'Day:

We are not in favor of the idiotic banner of FCS either, but you and your HC took his payola & went around preaching ...now our new moniker is "the division formerly known as I-AA". So you no longer have the right to express concerns over anything.

[ncbears]

You guys want to see the program collapse? Wait till the Griz go 5-6 for 3 years straight in the Big Sky and miss the playoffs. The attendance will go to 12,000 if we are lucky. You'll get seats on the 40-50 yard line and the ticket prices will drop to $12 because they will be begging people to attend the games.

It's not if, it's when. The program will decline. Every dominate program in the Big Sky always has. It only takes one bad coach. Ask the basketball program "What happened?"

MINOR LEAGUE sports work as long as you are winning. They fail miserably when you start losing. Look at the average attendance thoughout the FCS. Schools brag when they get 10,000 fans at a game.

Minor league sports? Are you refering to FCS as minor league?? If so you're a pompous ****. Get the **** off this board you ass.

[89Hen]

In four years I wonder how many top programs will announce they are bailing?
My guess.... none.

[Green26]

I find it interesting that Ronbo (who by the way is my friend) seems to be using the same argument as I am--only he's using it to say Montana needs to move up from I-AA and I'm using it to say Montana can't and shouldn't risk moving to I-A.

To me, the risk of the program declining significantly, and losing its fan base, would increase significantly by moving to I-A. It is highly unlikely that UM could avoid significant numbers of losses and even losing seasons if it went I-A. While the newness of I-A and new and better competition would hold the crowds, and new I-A fans would offset the loss of some I-AA diehards, for some number of years, I believe the fan base would start to decline.

Where UM now is, the fan base is increasing and the level of excitement continues to be very high. While a season with more than 3 losses is bound to come, and while the complaining would be huge, I don't think 4 or 5 loss seasons are likely to occur very often (at least in the foreseeable future), the number of losses would quickly go back down, and the fan base would be firm.

The population of the Missoula area and western Montana, is increasing, and expected to increase significantly, in the coming years. This will create more demand for seats. Montana has a huge number of fans who drive 2 - 5 hours and even more, to attend every game. I don't see this aspect of the fan base increasing much under any circumstances. This part of the fan base would decrease with large numbers of losses, whether at I-A or I-AA--as well as with fewer Montana kids playing and on the roster.

One of the negative things that has developed at UM in the past 5 years or so--and it is both unpleasant and causes me some concern--is the amount of complaining by fans. Complaints about losses, complaints about playoff losses, complaints about coaches, complaints about some players, complaints about style of play, and complaints about margin of victory. Some of this is ugly and hurtful, and some of this involves alot of the fan base.

For the most part, the expectations are unrealistic, and many of the complaints are offbase in my view. For example, to hear some Griz fans talk, you would think the Griz haven't won a playoff game in Hauck's 5 years and the program has declined. The facts are that UM and Hauck have won more playoff games in that period than any teams except App St and Delaware. I believe UM and App St have won the most games during that period too. UM has won the conference and been to the playoffs all 5 years, been to Chattanooga and been in the semifinals.

I think I've noticed that some of this type of complaining is starting to occur at App St. It's not (yet) about not winning playoff games, but there seem to be more fans (judged by AGS) complaining about parking lot prices, ticket prices, the administration, etc.

[McNeese_beat]

I find it interesting that Ronbo (who by the way is my friend) seems to be using the same argument as I am--only he's using it to say Montana needs to move up from I-AA and I'm using it to say Montana can't and shouldn't risk moving to I-A.

To me, the risk of the program declining significantly, and losing its fan base, would increase significantly by moving to I-A. It is highly unlikely that UM could avoid significant numbers of losses and even losing seasons if it went I-A. While the newness of I-A and new and better competition would hold the crowds, and new I-A fans would offset the loss of some I-AA diehards, for some number of years, I believe the fan base would start to decline.

Where UM now is, the fan base is increasing and the level of excitement continues to be very high. While a season with more than 3 losses is bound to come, and while the complaining would be huge, I don't think 4 or 5 loss seasons are likely to occur very often (at least in the foreseeable future), the number of losses would quickly go back down, and the fan base would be firm.

The population of the Missoula area and western Montana, is increasing, and expected to increase significantly, in the coming years. This will create more demand for seats. Montana has a huge number of fans who drive 2 - 5 hours and even more, to attend every game. I don't see this aspect of the fan base increasing much under any circumstances. This part of the fan base would decrease with large numbers of losses, whether at I-A or I-AA--as well as with fewer Montana kids playing and on the roster.

One of the negative things that has developed at UM in the past 5 years or so--and it is both unpleasant and causes me some concern--is the amount of complaining by fans. Complaints about losses, complaints about playoff losses, complaints about coaches, complaints about some players, complaints about style of play, and complaints about margin of victory. Some of this is ugly and hurtful, and some of this involves alot of the fan base.

For the most part, the expectations are unrealistic, and many of the complaints are offbase in my view. For example, to hear some Griz fans talk, you would think the Griz haven't won a playoff game in Hauck's 5 years and the program has declined. The facts are that UM and Hauck have won more playoff games in that period than any teams except App St and Delaware. I believe UM and App St have won the most games during that period too. UM has won the conference and been to the playoffs all 5 years, been to Chattanooga and been in the semifinals.

I think I've noticed that some of this type of complaining is starting to occur at App St. It's not (yet) about not winning playoff games, but there seem to be more fans (judged by AGS) complaining about parking lot prices, ticket prices, the administration, etc.

Ronbo's point is valid for this reason: If the NCAA keeps giving the top teams in the FCS reason to leave the FCS, they will, eventually. If you are a program like Montana, Delaware, McNeese or App. that draws well and can sell enough tickets to be profittable, you want to A. get as many home games as you can (i.e., the 12-game schedule) and B. Profit off the gate you draw in the playoffs.

The NCAA is making it impossible for programs that draw well to do A and they've done nothing to make B happen either. To me, they are tying the hands of teams that are just trying to maximize their product. Right now, if you are Montana, you are saying "geesh, if we were in an FBS league, we'd get money for that extra home game PLUS we would get the bowl money distributed to our league.

Of course, the clear-headed response to that is "yeah, but you also incur all the extra expense of 22 more football scholarships, extra women's sports, the demand for higher pay across the board to match your conference competitors, etc" and for the short-term, Montana would stay FCS.

But the point is, eventually, if the FCS doesn't take the approach of "how do we best reward our best teams" then those best teams are destined to continue to explore the move up option until they find reason to leave.

[Dane96]

Move up to FBS....and you wont have 7 home games. You will be lucky to get 6.

[CopperCat]

Move up to FBS....and you wont have 7 home games. You will be lucky to get 6.

Or 5 for that matter.

[AZGrizFan]

Move up to FBS....and you wont have 7 home games. You will be lucky to get 6.


Or 5 for that matter.

Sure we would. There will always be Big Sky teams looking for a little gravy that'll come to Wa-Griz and get their asses handed to them for a little payola.

[OB55]

I personally feel Montana is where it is best for them, their fans, and their state. Take a look at Wyoming and their situation and the FCS world of Montana and Montana State looks great.

[Green26]

McNeese, I'm not aware that Montana has any significant gripes against the NCAA. Also, as others have pointed out, Montana will have fewer, and probably far fewer, homes games if it were I-A.

[JBB]

D2 drove out there top programs with a screwed up playoff situation and I say downright rigged playoff hosting decisions. It got so bad that some of the mediocre programs are even leaving now. It could happen here too.

[MplsBison]

It got so bad that some of the mediocre programs are even leaving now.

None of those were from the Dakotas, though.

[catdaddy2402]

Move up to FBS....and you wont have 7 home games. You will be lucky to get 6.


Or 5 for that matter.

Montana would be assured of at-minimum 5 home games as a FBS team.

The minute Montana announced they wanted to make the jump the WAC would be working to get them in the conference. Working with a 8 conference game schedule (4 home 4 away) assures they have 4 games at home. Add in the inevitable rent a win game vs a FCS team and that's 5. The only reason they wouldn't have at least 5 home games every year would be if they screwed up their scheduling, or had an opportunity at more money.

[eaglesrthe1]

Montana would be assured of at-minimum 5 home games as a FBS team.

The minute Montana announced they wanted to make the jump the WAC would be working to get them in the conference. Working with a 8 conference game schedule (4 home 4 away) assures they have 4 games at home. Add in the inevitable rent a win game vs a FCS team and that's 5. The only reason they wouldn't have at least 5 home games every year would be if they screwed up their scheduling, or had an opportunity at more money.

You have to have 5 against IA competition as a requirement for being IA, though a neutral site can count. The FCS games can't count towards that.

[catdaddy2402]

You have to have 5 against IA competition as a requirement for being IA, though a neutral site can count. The FCS games can't count towards that.
You only have to have four home games vs FBS competition.

http://www1.ncaa.org/membership/governance/division_I/DI_Membership_Info/Information/chart_memreq.pdf