LFN: What Does NEC Autobid Mean For Patriot League?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com

So what happens now that the NEC gets an autobid, and will likely increase the number of schollies? Will the Patriot League react?

[Go...gate]

My guess is that they will do nothing until the PL's automatic bid is placed in jeopardy. The PL leadership, unfortunately, is showing a bit of the fossilization which plagues that of the Ivy League with respect to major change.

[DetroitFlyer]

The scholarship question is most interesting.... One has to wonder if there was some back door lobbying by the NEC promising to increase the number of athletic scholarships offered. Of course we have heard the messageboard banter about the NEC going to 40 or 45 athletic scholarships, but at this point it is pretty much just banter. If you can receive an automatic bid with 30 athletic scholarships, I'm thinking that some NEC members may be reluctant to fund more....

So, I think the only threat at all to the PL is if the NEC has to promise to provide more scholarships to get the bid. More NEC scholarships means more competition for PL recruits.

I'm telling you, the PL, the PFL and the Ivy League would do well to all pretend we are a unique level of college football, band together, and develop our own playoff system.... Maybe the A-Sun could join down the road....


What about the impact on the PFL? I for one an not too thrilled about maintaining the Gridiron Classic so the PFL champion can play the second place team of the NEC.... I guess that we have to hope for PFL expansion so that we can play in divisions and then play with ourselves for a "championship" or hope that the A-Sun starts football by 2010 so we can continue the Gridiron Classic with them....

[danefan]

NEC increase in scholarships is not banter.

The vote has been publicized and will happen in June.

It's likely to pass (based on what our AD has indicated).

[Go...gate]

The scholarship question is most interesting.... One has to wonder if there was some back door lobbying by the NEC promising to increase the number of athletic scholarships offered. Of course we have heard the messageboard banter about the NEC going to 40 or 45 athletic scholarships, but at this point it is pretty much just banter. If you can receive an automatic bid with 30 athletic scholarships, I'm thinking that some NEC members may be reluctant to fund more....

So, I think the only threat at all to the PL is if the NEC has to promise to provide more scholarships to get the bid. More NEC scholarships means more competition for PL recruits.

I'm telling you, the PL, the PFL and the Ivy League would do well to all pretend we are a unique level of college football, band together, and develop our own playoff system.... Maybe the A-Sun could join down the road....


What about the impact on the PFL? I for one an not too thrilled about maintaining the Gridiron Classic so the PFL champion can play the second place team of the NEC.... I guess that we have to hope for PFL expansion so that we can play in divisions and then play with ourselves for a "championship" or hope that the A-Sun starts football by 2010 so we can continue the Gridiron Classic with them....

Flyer, IMO, this is certainly one possibility if, under such an option, the NCAA permits the schools to stay Division I and the PL leadership continues to do nothing vis-a-vis football. But if it meant D-III long term, as some in the Patriots and Ivies seemingly long for, it would be a non-starter. Our schools would essentially become the "grandfather" group in Division I football and likely the last of our kind in the Division.

OTOH, if the magic number is 40 scholarships as opposed to 50-55 equivaliencies, I can see the PL going in this direction, because as Colgate 13 so often has pointed out, the cost of scholarships will be comparable to equivalencies and Colgate could sell this to its administrative as being a "limited scholarship" model.

[MplsBison]

I'm telling you, the PL, the PFL and the Ivy League would do well to all pretend we are a unique level of college football, band together, and develop our own playoff system.... Maybe the A-Sun could join down the road....

The best option would be if the NCAA created the DI Football Nonscholarship Series (DI FNS).

[Go...gate]

The best option would be if the NCAA created the DI Football Nonscholarship Series (DI FNS).

That has been discussed off-and-on since the 1960's, but it was hard to create a consensus. IMO, if you had this, you might have a number of teams who would step up. Ithaca, Gettysburg, Union, Dickinson, Catholic, Marquette, Beloit and others come to mind.

[MplsBison]

In my perfect world, you'd have the FNS created and football would be taken out of the title IX calculation.



I think you'd see a lot more DI nonscholarship teams start.

[Franks Tanks]

The best option would be if the NCAA created the DI Football Nonscholarship Series (DI FNS).

Then what would we do when the PFL and IVY's get mad when the PL dominates. :) One thing that is certain however is that the Ivies dont let just anyone join their party. They surely would have no issue associating with schools like Davidson, but may have an issue with the Moreheads on the world.

But overall this point is mute as long as the PL continues to be competitve and Lafayette, Lehigh, Colgate, and Fordham continue to be serious about winning FB games.

[carney2]

As I've said before, my guess is that the ivory tower folks who run the Patriot League think that they have already done something when a number of schools announced revised financial aid programs mimicking the Ivy announcements of earlier this year. In fact, the Patriot League model is so weak that it can't even be called Ivy Lite. It's like a Starbucks, using half the beans

In any event, these folks will now wait - and wait - and wait - to see how it plays out. Best guess from this chair with an obstructed view is that, without any new earthquakes to drastically change the landscape, no movement until 2013 or later. Going even further out on that limb, here's another guess: only one Patriot League playoff victory before 2013, and that will only occur when/if they get that dream cupcake pairing like Richmond-Hampton a few years ago.

[DFW HOYA]

But overall this point is mute as long as the PL continues to be competitve and Lafayette, Lehigh, Colgate, and Fordham continue to be serious about winning FB games.

Last I checked, this was not a four team league. What says Colgate is more "serious" than Holy Cross? Fordham over Georgetown?

Some teams may be better at winning, sure, and others are better in recruiting, but if you're in the league, you have some level of seriousness about the sport; else, you'd be sitting alongside American watching soccer games on Saturdays.

But to answer the question, nothing appears to be on the horizon. The PL becomes a one-bid league for the foreseeable future.

[Tribe4SF]

Going even further out on that limb, here's another guess: only one Patriot League playoff victory before 2013, and that will only occur when/if they get that dream cupcake pairing like Richmond-Hampton a few years ago.

Since I doubt you saw the Richmond-Hampton game two years ago, I would also doubt you're qualified to pass judgement on the Pirates being a cupcake that year. This past season they we're not a playoff team, but managed to beat Princeton by 21, at Princeton.

Hope of the PL drawing a cupcake is truly a dream. They are likely to be paired against a CAA opponent for the forseeable future. If not that, then probably Youngstown State.

[Franks Tanks]

Last I checked, this was not a four team league. What says Colgate is more "serious" than Holy Cross? Fordham over Georgetown?

Some teams may be better at winning, sure, and others are better in recruiting, but if you're in the league, you have some level of seriousness about the sport; else, you'd be sitting alongside American watching soccer games on Saturdays.

But to answer the question, nothing appears to be on the horizon. The PL becomes a one-bid league for the foreseeable future.


I just meant some teams seem to desire scholly's while others dont. I think a few schools would not be that satisfied with this non-scholly division business.

[Ivytalk]

Then what would we do when the PFL and IVY's get mad when the PL dominates. :) One thing that is certain however is that the Ivies dont let just anyone join their party. They surely would have no issue associating with schools like Davidson, but may have an issue with the Moreheads on the world.
But overall this point is mute as long as the PL continues to be competitve and Lafayette, Lehigh, Colgate, and Fordham continue to be serious about winning FB games.

I don't know, Franks...when I was in school, I would have welcomed a lot Morehead than I actually got! Most Harvard men feel the same way!xnodx

[Hansel]

means the PL season will end in the play-in round instead of the first round

;)

[Dane96]

Ummmm....there is no play-in round unless I am mistaken. The FIRST round...is 8 teams...the second round is 16 teams...back to 8...down to 4...down to 2...Champion.

Am I missing something here.

[Pard4Life]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com

So what happens now that the NEC gets an autobid, and will likely increase the number of schollies? Will the Patriot League react?

Well I can see Tavani being increasingly uneasy and the Pards having to go across the country to attract overlooked talent. The schools with the resources and will to do this, Colgate, Lafayette, Lehigh, Fordham will follow and thrive based on finding the hidden gems... whereas Bucknell does not care, Holy Cross is geographically diverse in terms of talent but finanical dedication is questionable, and G'town has too many other issues/programs to worry about.

We did not build an immaculate facility just to let the league and our prospects flounder... lobby hard for those schollies. Tavani is going to be around until he retires, so I can see this being his last remaining hurdle to try and win the Big Cookie in Chattanooga.

Furthermore, the more our league's schools go farther afield, average income of the American household declines (unless you go to California). Most of our recruits would then likely qualify for our aid and grants etc. which is akin to a scholarship.

And then there are those special cases, like Bard Maurer and Morrow, who qualify for a full-need scholarship on academic merits.

As for us being a one-bid league? Not necesarily... if we have a 9-2 non-league champion, that equals a bid. We play Ivy teams and some other OOCs to warrant a look. Lafayette made it at 8-3 a few years ago.

And skeptical carney, our league has nearly beaten Delaware, ASU, and UMass three of the past four seasons... they were top seeds too. Your and many other's beliefs that we cannot win a playoff game post-Colgate is based upon some very heavily weighted teams.

[Franks Tanks]

means the PL season will end in the play-in round instead of the first round

;)


OHHH-- come talk to us when NDSU actually plays a D-I playoff game.

[DFW HOYA]

Well I can see Tavani being increasingly uneasy and the Pards having to go across the country to attract overlooked talent. The schools with the resources and will to do this, Colgate, Lafayette, Lehigh, Fordham will follow and thrive based on finding the hidden gems... whereas Bucknell does not care, Holy Cross is geographically diverse in terms of talent but finanical dedication is questionable, and G'town has too many other issues/programs to worry about.

I dispute the contention that some schools "will thrive" on national recruiting while Georgetown "has too many other issues/programs to worry about." Georgetown recruits nationally as a university, more than any other PL school by far (outside the Academies).

This is also the case in football. Next season, there could be only four local kids left on the roster. Local kids don't commit because they see the poor record and go elsewhere, including a lot of PL schools. The fall recruiting class has no local signees at present. To be successful, GU has to rely on national recruiting, plain and simple.

As to "too many programs", I don't understand this line of reasoning. Georgetown has 29 sports programs and that's a measure of strength, not weakness.

[Seawolf97]

OHHH-- come talk to us when NDSU actually plays a D-I playoff game.

They beat Big 10 Minniesota last year as a transistion team .I think the Bison will have no problems going deep into the playoffs. xcoffeex

[Franks Tanks]

They beat Big 10 Minniesota last year as a transistion team .I think the Bison will have no problems going deep into the playoffs. xcoffeex

I am fully aware of NDSU's performance last year, they just are not yet in a position to throw stones.

[Franks Tanks]

Realistically, what's Tavani going to do about it? Leave their own league?

More to the point, I dispute the contention that some schools "will thrive" on national recruiting while Georgetown "has too many other issues/programs to worry about." Georgetown recruits nationally as a university, more than any other PL school by far (outside the Academies). Only 3% of its students are local.

Sadly, this is also the case in football. Next season, there could be only four local kids left on the roster. Local kids don't commit because they see the poor record and go elsewhere, including a lot of PL schools. The fall recruiting class has no local signees at present. To be successful, GU has to rely on national recruiting, plain and simple.

As to "too many programs", I don't understand this line of reasoning. Georgetown has 29 sports programs and that's a measure of strength, not weakness.


Holy Cross pushed the PL into B-ball schollies by getting tough. I can see a situation led by Lehigh, Lafayette, Colgate or Fordham that may also force the league hand. Lets face it PL leadership isnt the most proactive, they tend to react to situation when needed.

[ngineer]

Holy Cross pushed the PL into B-ball schollies by getting tough. I can see a situation led by Lehigh, Lafayette, Colgate or Fordham that may also force the league hand. Lets face it PL leadership isnt the most proactive, they tend to react to situation when needed.

I think Weiss will have to take the lead if this is to happen. From what I've seen of Gast,to date, she's academic foremost and I don't see her 'leading' on this issue.

[carney2]

I think Weiss will have to take the lead if this is to happen. From what I've seen of Gast,to date, she's academic foremost and I don't see her 'leading' on this issue.

Lafayette will follow. Colgate will lead.

[carney2]

Well I can see Tavani being increasingly uneasy and the Pards having to go across the country to attract overlooked talent. The schools with the resources and will to do this, Colgate, Lafayette, Lehigh, Fordham will follow and thrive based on finding the hidden gems... whereas Bucknell does not care, Holy Cross is geographically diverse in terms of talent but finanical dedication is questionable, and G'town has too many other issues/programs to worry about.

We are only weeks - possibly days - away from Georgetown taking a GIANT step forward.

[Franks Tanks]

We are only weeks - possibly days - away from Georgetown taking a GIANT step forward.

Please do tell

[Go...gate]

We are only weeks - possibly days - away from Georgetown taking a GIANT step forward.

And what is that giant step?

[carney2]

And what is that giant step?

You only need wait a little longer. Hold your pants on.

[DFW HOYA]

We are only weeks - possibly days - away from Georgetown taking a GIANT step forward.

Hmmm...

A gift for 63 scholarships?
Finishing the unnamed Multi-Sport Field?
A three year series with Navy?
Adding 6-10 Greg Monroe as a tight end?

No, it must be the recruiting analysis, where he'll be asking how 20% of its recruitng class ended up as quarterbacks, one of whom will likely be starting in week 1.

Oh, and a great pick-up at RB.

[carney2]

Hmmm...

A gift for 63 scholarships?
Finishing the unnamed Multi-Sport Field?
A three year series with Navy?
Adding 6-10 Greg Monroe as a tight end?

No, it must be the recruiting analysis, where he'll be asking how 20% of its recruitng class ended up as quarterbacks, one of whom will likely be starting in week 1.

Oh, and a great pick-up at RB.

And OL.

[Franks Tanks]

Hmmm...

A gift for 63 scholarships?
Finishing the unnamed Multi-Sport Field?
A three year series with Navy?
Adding 6-10 Greg Monroe as a tight end?

No, it must be the recruiting analysis, where he'll be asking how 20% of its recruitng class ended up as quarterbacks, one of whom will likely be starting in week 1.

Oh, and a great pick-up at RB.


Great call-- we have been waiting for the monster G-town class for years, perhaps this is it?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/

I finally put up what it "really" means (and no, it's not Georgetown's recruits) :D

Basically, though, if the Patriot League presidents and their ADs aren't shaking in their boots, they ought to be.

[LBPop]

I don't know, Franks...when I was in school, I would have welcomed a lot Morehead than I actually got! Most Harvard men feel the same way!xnodx

Don't worry Ivy...I caught it. I guess this thread is just too serious. ;)

[Ivytalk]

Don't worry Ivy...I caught it. I guess this thread is just too serious. ;)

Thanks, Pop! I knew the Hoyas would get it!:)

[Fordham]

Thanks, Pop! I knew the Hoyas would get it!:)

not married, huh fellas?

[Go...gate]

I agree with LFN but at a loss to see how the PL will ever gain a consensus on scholarships....

[Seawolf97]

The article was right on the money as it usually is. I know just being in the Big South helped greatly with recruiting this year. Having a shot at the playoffs should only help all the Big South teams.

[carney2]

I agree with LFN but at a loss to see how the PL will ever gain a consensus on scholarships....

There will never be a "consensus." It needs to go the way it went with Holy Cross and basketball scholarships (without the "or we're taking our ball and leaving" bullsquiggle) where them that wants to do it, move forward, and them what wants to bury their heads in the sand (mentioning no names, you moron, Artie Rothkopf) can bury away. Someone needs to take the lead and I'm betting it will be Colgate. Let's go Raiders!

[Ken_Z]

i think some sort of news has to break this summer. Marist not joining the league at a time when need for league expansion has been acknowledged by several presidents indicates that a decision was made in one of two directions:

1) academic strength over athletics i.e look for D3 upgrades to join e.g. RPI, Rochester
2) the league is willing to do what is necessary to appeal to more attractive candidates than Marist i.e. add scholarships in some form

of course the third possibility, the league continues to wander aimlessly is possible, but i think Marist would have been invited (and accepted) in that case.

[danefan]

RPI is building and moving fast in Troy.

I'm not so sure they are willing to be DI in all sports though.

An older newsletter on construction:
http://www.rpi.edu/campaign/newsletter/stadium.pdf

[TheValleyRaider]

RPI is building and moving fast in Troy.

I'm not so sure they are willing to be DI in all sports though.

An older newsletter on construction:
http://www.rpi.edu/campaign/newsletter/stadium.pdf

The unfortunate thing is, if the Patriot League wanted them for football, they'd have to be....

[LUHawker]

i think some sort of news has to break this summer. Marist not joining the league at a time when need for league expansion has been acknowledged by several presidents indicates that a decision was made in one of two directions:

1) academic strength over athletics i.e look for D3 upgrades to join e.g. RPI, Rochester
2) the league is willing to do what is necessary to appeal to more attractive candidates than Marist i.e. add scholarships in some form

of course the third possibility, the league continues to wander aimlessly is possible, but i think Marist would have been invited (and accepted) in that case.

KenZ - I think that both 1 & 2 probably applied. Despite the acceptance of American, I believe that the PL still holds academic stature as one of, if not the top criteria in selection. The AI will be adjusted and perhaps scholarships on are their way also.

I think if RPI committed to upgrading, the PL would take them in a heartbeat. Right size, right academics, good geography, good reputation. I do wonder, though, if RPI would be willing to jettison its tradition with Union to do so.

[danefan]

KenZ - I think that both 1 & 2 probably applied. Despite the acceptance of American, I believe that the PL still holds academic stature as one of, if not the top criteria in selection. The AI will be adjusted and perhaps scholarships on are their way also.

I think if RPI committed to upgrading, the PL would take them in a heartbeat. Right size, right academics, good geography, good reputation. I do wonder, though, if RPI would be willing to jettison its tradition with Union to do so.

The have tradition, but its nothing a new rivalry couldn't replace.

They would still play in the sport that really matters to them - hockey.

Listen, I don't think it will happen, and to be frank, I hope it doesn't. We are trying to build a fan-base. We don't need any Division I football competition in the area. We've got it monoplized right now and I'd like to see it stay that way.

[Go...gate]

Another FCS Upstate NY rival will never hurt, danefan. IMO, it will serve to increase interest in College FB in that region.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Are you guys talking about Rochester Institute of Technology or University of Rochester?

RIT doesn't play football. Do you think you could entice U of Rochester to leave the University Athletic Association? At least they play football.

[Franks Tanks]

Are you guys talking about Rochester Institute of Technology or University of Rochester?

RIT doesn't play football. Do you think you could entice U of Rochester to leave the University Athletic Association? At least they play football.

Neither--RPI or Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute

[danefan]

Another FCS Upstate NY rival will never hurt, danefan. IMO, it will serve to increase interest in College FB in that region.

Normally I would agree with you. Maybe I'll feel a little different in a few years once we have an established FCS squad.

But now there are too many potential negatives for us:

1. RPI has money and lots of it. We don't have any money.
2. RPI has better academics (sans Nano).
3. RPI has Joe Bruno on its jock (its in his district). We have no one in the NYS Legis. worth their salt.
4. RPI is seen (like Union) in the region as being a good school where good kids want to go. We are seen as being the school full of drunken long island kids (which is a generalization based on fact). That, unfortunately, effects town/gown relationships, which in turn hurts our attendance.

In five years, I'm all for it. In fact, I'm all for it once we go to 63 rides (which should happen in less then 5 years). Then it shouldn't be too difficult to pass RPI in DI off as UA's "little brother" across the river.

We need to be the only show in town for a while, especially when our stadium gets built. IMO

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

i think some sort of news has to break this summer. Marist not joining the league at a time when need for league expansion has been acknowledged by several presidents indicates that a decision was made in one of two directions:

1) academic strength over athletics i.e look for D3 upgrades to join e.g. RPI, Rochester
2) the league is willing to do what is necessary to appeal to more attractive candidates than Marist i.e. add scholarships in some form

of course the third possibility, the league continues to wander aimlessly is possible, but i think Marist would have been invited (and accepted) in that case.


Neither--RPI or Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute

KenZ mentioned Rochester.

[Ken_Z]

well, since you ask, i'm not really sure what i was talking about (if there was ever an invite for a carney attack, this is it). i was thinking UofR as a quality school about which i thought i recalled some talk of having interest in moving up to D1 for hockey. however, after investigating i see it is RIT, and not UofR, that has a hockey team.

while RPI is a name we have heard a fair amount and makes as much sense as any, i was primarily avoiding listing JHU and going down that path again. the point i was trying to make is that i believe the league made a decision, the unknown is, is the focus on academics over athletics in a manner we don't have to succumb to the evils of scholarships (D3s upgrading), or are they ready to move into the real world and do what it takes to get both (scholarships).

what differentiates my position from most is that i actually believe the league has actually made a decision on the direction they will take to expand membership.

[Go...gate]

i think some sort of news has to break this summer. Marist not joining the league at a time when need for league expansion has been acknowledged by several presidents indicates that a decision was made in one of two directions:

1) academic strength over athletics i.e look for D3 upgrades to join e.g. RPI, Rochester
2) the league is willing to do what is necessary to appeal to more attractive candidates than Marist i.e. add scholarships in some form

of course the third possibility, the league continues to wander aimlessly is possible, but i think Marist would have been invited (and accepted) in that case.


I hope you are right, but I'm not sure the PL leadership thinks any urgency is needed on this. They could not be more wrong.

[carney2]

well, since you ask, i'm not really sure what i was talking about (if there was ever an invite for a carney attack, this is it).

what differentiates my position from most is that i actually believe the league has actually made a decision on the direction they will take to expand membership.

Would love to attack. Need to attack. Must attack to preserve my sanity. You have, however, set yourself up as the little metal duck in the shooting gallery. Too easy. Not sporting.

On your more important position that "the League has made a decision," I would be really surprised if that is true. It would require cohesion and planning, neither of which - and certainly not the two together - seem(s) to be strengths for this gang that can't shoot straight. I doubt if they've done anything more than "talk" and ask the perpetual academic question "What are the other conferences doing?" The "talk" is almost certainly meaningless jabber going 40 directions at once. These guys do not have a history of being proactive. They have always been reactionaries and there is no reason to expect them to change now. I say again, someone must force their hand. I'm betting on Colgate.

[LBPop]

not married, huh fellas?

xlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolx

[ngineer]

U of Rochester would fit PL academic profile to a 'T'. They have a nice little football stadium already. Don't know how they've done recently in the University Association in D-III over the past few years, but I was up there 10 years ago when my daughter and I were doing the 'college tour' and was impressed with the campus and the city.

[carney2]

In all this smoke and mirrors day dreaming that's going on, someone needs to explain why any school would move from D-III to D-I in football. Basketball I understand. But football? It's an incredibly expensive proposition with a low expectation of a payoff. In all of the ridiculous discussions of Patriot League expansion on this site over the past few years, this one crosses the line into the lunatic fringe.

[Franks Tanks]

In all this smoke and mirrors day dreaming that's going on, someone needs to explain why any school would move from D-III to D-I in football. Basketball I understand. But football? It's an incredibly expensive proposition with a low expectation of a payoff.

You are correct Carney. The only reason I can generate is that the lure of D-I B-ball is so strong they can live with the FB expense. It would also have to be a team with strong FB tradition so they would fight to keep it and do well in FCS.

[Fordham]

In all this smoke and mirrors day dreaming that's going on, someone needs to explain why any school would move from D-III to D-I in football. Basketball I understand. But football? It's an incredibly expensive proposition with a low expectation of a payoff. In all of the ridiculous discussions of Patriot League expansion on this site over the past few years, this one crosses the line into the lunatic fringe.

Huzzah for the shopkeep! <I agree w/carney>

[DFW HOYA]

In all this smoke and mirrors day dreaming that's going on, someone needs to explain why any school would move from D-III to D-I in football. Basketball I understand. But football? It's an incredibly expensive proposition with a low expectation of a payoff. In all of the ridiculous discussions of Patriot League expansion on this site over the past few years, this one crosses the line into the lunatic fringe.

Agreed.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

In all this smoke and mirrors day dreaming that's going on, someone needs to explain why any school would move from D-III to D-I in football. Basketball I understand. But football? It's an incredibly expensive proposition with a low expectation of a payoff. In all of the ridiculous discussions of Patriot League expansion on this site over the past few years, this one crosses the line into the lunatic fringe.

Rep points for Carney. He's not right often, but a broken watch is always right twice a day. :p

Seriously, I 100% agree with this. Philosophically, getting an RPI to join the PL is a no-brainer due to their proximity to Colgate, academic prowess, etc. But if you thought there was moaning about G'Town taking so long to be competitive in football, just imagine how much time it will take RPI to do so IN ALL SPORTS.

It's only my own gut feelings, but I feel the following way about expansion. First, the PL seems to be shooting for bigger game than a D-III academic powerhouse that might want to move up in lacrosse or hockey and, oh yeah, football and basketball are way down the priority list. Second, they'd be more than willing to ditch the academic side of the argument to get another school that would strengthen the league as long as they were willing to play ball on an academic index.

People laugh when I bring up LaSalle, but I could really see this happening, especially now that they don't sponsor football.

Maybe I'll blog about this later today...

[Franks Tanks]

Rep points for Carney. He's not right often, but a broken watch is always right twice a day. :p

Seriously, I 100% agree with this. Philosophically, getting an RPI to join the PL is a no-brainer due to their proximity to Colgate, academic prowess, etc. But if you thought there was moaning about G'Town taking so long to be competitive in football, just imagine how much time it will take RPI to do so IN ALL SPORTS.

It's only my own gut feelings, but I feel the following way about expansion. First, the PL seems to be shooting for bigger game than a D-III academic powerhouse that might want to move up in lacrosse or hockey and, oh yeah, football and basketball are way down the priority list. Second, they'd be more than willing to ditch the academic side of the argument to get another school that would strengthen the league as long as they were willing to play ball on an academic index.

People laugh when I bring up LaSalle, but I could really see this happening, especially now that they don't sponsor football.

Maybe I'll blog about this later today...

But what is the point of adding LaSalle without football? We are more desperate to solidify the football side, so I dont think we should add another member without a FB program unless they are a phenomonial school (thats not Lasalle)

[Lehigh Football Nation]

But what is the point of adding LaSalle without football? We are more desperate to solidify the football side, so I dont think we should add another member without a FB program unless they are a phenomonial school (thats not Lasalle)

Two all-sports members, one with football, and one without, makes 10 basketball teams and 8 football teams.

Another option is St. Bonaventure getting booted from the A-10, which is conceivable, but it's not clear how it helps the PL - definitely not in football.

Here's a thought: Richmond joins in football, and LaSalle and St. Bonnie join in all sports? Of course, with 3 affiliates it doesn't really help football too much unless the Explorers of Bonnies want to play football again.

[Franks Tanks]

Two all-sports members, one with football, and one without, makes 10 basketball teams and 8 football teams.

Another option is St. Bonaventure getting booted from the A-10, which is conceivable, but it's not clear how it helps the PL - definitely not in football.

Here's a thought: Richmond joins in football, and LaSalle and St. Bonnie join in all sports? Of course, with 3 affiliates it doesn't really help football too much unless the Explorers of Bonnies want to play football again.

I know we disagree on this so no point of going through it again really. LaSalle and St. Bonny may be options, but they will get no one excited and really only help in B-Ball. Their Academic Index would be much lower then even American I believe.

[DFW HOYA]

Question: Why does the PL even need an Index?

[Go...gate]

I know we disagree on this so no point of going through it again really. LaSalle and St. Bonny may be options, but they will get no one excited and really only help in B-Ball. Their Academic Index would be much lower then even American I believe[/B].

Your belief would be resoundingly accurate.

[Franks Tanks]

Question: Why does the PL even need an Index?

Since the league was set-up in the model of the Ivy league the athletes are suspossed to be academically reprsentative of the entire student body. Now I highly doubt any of the league schools will move too far from the average student anyhow when admitting athletes, but just a way to ensure this happens.

[Franks Tanks]

Your belief would be resoundingly accurate.

Lasalle and St. Bonny have more in common with the schools in the A-10 anyway. Their academics and size are in line with A-10 schools like St. Joes's, Dayton, and Duquense. The A-10 is probably the best fit for these schools so they already are where they should be.

[andy7171]

Just curious, how did Towson rank in the PL academic index?

I know it was hard for Towson to compete in recruiting for the same type of athletes because of the historical prestige of attending a PL school.

[Franks Tanks]

Just curious, how did Towson rank in the PL academic index?

I know it was hard for Towson to compete in recruiting for the same type of athletes because of the historical prestige of attending a PL school.

No offense but they did stick out like a sore thumb. Towson defintily had some very good athletes when in the league and it seems some of the admission libertties you were able to take counteracted other disadvantages (if you want to call it that)

[andy7171]

No offense but they did stick out like a sore thumb. Towson defintily had some very good athletes when in the league and it seems some of the admission libertties you were able to take counteracted other disadvantages (if you want to call it that)

No offense taken, we knew we were out of place. But getting the screw job in '93 and '94, we realized the value of being in a league. Being an independant makes it practically impossible to make the post season.

And yes the fact that our tuition, even for out of staters, was 1/4 sometimes 1/4 of what other schools were, helped.

[carney2]

Rep points for Carney. He's not right often, but a broken watch is always right twice a day.

Et tu, Burton? Et tu?!

[carney2]

Here's a thought: Richmond joins in football,

That ship has sailed. If you're determined to stand on the dock and wait for it to return, bring a tent and lots of provisions, because it's going to be a long, long wait.

[Go...gate]

No offense taken, we knew we were out of place. But getting the screw job in '93 and '94, we realized the value of being in a league. Being an independant makes it practically impossible to make the post season.

And yes the fact that our tuition, even for out of staters, was 1/4 sometimes 1/4 of what other schools were, helped.

IMO, the Patriot League should always be grateful to Towson; they helped the football league hold together in the mid-late 1990's when it appeared that Fordham might leave in conjunction with its move to the A-10. I remember going to the Colgate-Towson game in 1996 at your old ballpark, which was a lot of fun.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

That ship has sailed. If you're determined to stand on the dock and wait for it to return, bring a tent and lots of provisions, because it's going to be a long, long wait.

I'm not so sure about that anymore. IMO there is some genuine turmoil in the CAA with their affiliates and a 14 team conference without a championship game. The chance that one or two affiliates may peel off the CAA and join a new-and-improved Patriot League with scholarships in football increases daily.

Of course, importantly they would not be *all-sports* members. If the Patriot League could somehow, some way get Richmond and William & Mary to join the league in all sports, we would be a force. But I cannot see that ever happening due to basketball considerations.

The "dream Patriot League" would probably be something like this:

Most Sports:
American
Army
Navy
Holy Cross
Lafayette
Lehigh
Bucknell
Colgate
William & Mary
Boston U.

Football:
Fordham
Holy Cross
Bucknell
Lehigh
Lafayette
Georgetown
Colgate
Richmond
William & Mary
Boston U.

In football, the PL would have the "oldest Rivalry in the South" and an even slate of games for the end of the year: Lehigh/Lafayette, Richmond/W&M, HC/BU, G'Town/Bucknell, and Fordham/Colgate. In basketball, we'd have a mouth-watering array of private schools (the notable exception being W&M) and real mid-major clout.

Again, this is a dream scenario. I'm not holding my breath. But I'm desperately hoping that the league office has something like this up their sleeve.

Notably, the only way this happens is with football scholarships with an academic index.

[ngineer]

I'm not so sure about that anymore. IMO there is some genuine turmoil in the CAA with their affiliates and a 14 team conference without a championship game. The chance that one or two affiliates may peel off the CAA and join a new-and-improved Patriot League with scholarships in football increases daily.

Of course, importantly they would not be *all-sports* members. If the Patriot League could somehow, some way get Richmond and William & Mary to join the league in all sports, we would be a force. But I cannot see that ever happening due to basketball considerations.

The "dream Patriot League" would probably be something like this:

Most Sports:
American
Army
Navy
Holy Cross
Lafayette
Lehigh
Bucknell
Colgate
William & Mary
Boston U.

Football:
Fordham
Holy Cross
Bucknell
Lehigh
Lafayette
Georgetown
Colgate
Richmond
William & Mary
Boston U.

In football, the PL would have the "oldest Rivalry in the South" and an even slate of games for the end of the year: Lehigh/Lafayette, Richmond/W&M, HC/BU, G'Town/Bucknell, and Fordham/Colgate. In basketball, we'd have a mouth-watering array of private schools (the notable exception being W&M) and real mid-major clout.

Again, this is a dream scenario. I'm not holding my breath. But I'm desperately hoping that the league office has something like this up their sleeve.
Notably, the only way this happens is with football scholarships with an academic index.

...or maybe their skirts.

[Dane96]

Not trying to be a dick here, but where is this "real mid-major" clout coming from in hoops-- by adding Boston U?

BU averages less than a 900 fans a game and hasn't been near the top of the America East for 6 years now. Very good program...but they are not going to bring you over some magical hump.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

I'm not so sure about that anymore. IMO there is some genuine turmoil in the CAA with their affiliates and a 14 team conference without a championship game. The chance that one or two affiliates may peel off the CAA and join a new-and-improved Patriot League with scholarships in football increases daily.


You must have some contacts within CAA schools, because I've yet to see a CAA poster on this forum state there is "genuine turmoil" within the ranks. I've read a few who don't like the 14 team league, but nothing close to "genuine turmoil". And frankly, everybody knows you don't have a league championship game in FCS especially if you want to compete in the playoffs. It doesn't bother us in a 12 team league. Making the playoffs and going for the national championship is what it is all about.

If there is so much "genuine turmoil", then why aren't like-minded schools like Richmond, William & Mary and Villanova clamoring to join your ranks? xconfusedx Especially Villanova who one poster on this forum has stated would sell more tickets, increase fan interest, decrease expenses (less travel), continue a Big East rivalry with Georgetown, etc. by playing a Patriot schedule. Playing at the highest level of FCS is a very, very strong unifying force.

And, by the way, BU doesn't have a football program nor have imminent plans to restore one.

[Fordham]

UNH, I think part of it is that this is dream scenario type stuff combined with the thought that something has to give with the size of the CAA ... and the addition of ODU football and possibly other full sport members adding it as well.

To answer your question about why they aren't clamoring to join our ranks - it's certainly possible that the answer is the lack of football scholarships. Add them and we'd all find out how marketable the league really is. I personally think a PL with scholarships could be an incredibly attractive option for CAA affiliate schools. Could find out that I'm wrong, though, and the allure of playing in the top FCS conference outweighs the benefits of a smaller conference of more like minded schools, etc.

[URMite]

I'm not so sure about that anymore. IMO there is some genuine turmoil in the CAA with their affiliates and a 14 team conference without a championship game. The chance that one or two affiliates may peel off the CAA and join a new-and-improved Patriot League with scholarships in football increases daily.

Of course, importantly they would not be *all-sports* members. If the Patriot League could somehow, some way get Richmond and William & Mary to join the league in all sports, we would be a force. But I cannot see that ever happening due to basketball considerations.

The "dream Patriot League" would probably be something like this:

Most Sports:
American
Army
Navy
Holy Cross
Lafayette
Lehigh
Bucknell
Colgate
William & Mary
Boston U.

Football:
Fordham
Holy Cross
Bucknell
Lehigh
Lafayette
Georgetown
Colgate
Richmond
William & Mary
Boston U.

In football, the PL would have the "oldest Rivalry in the South" and an even slate of games for the end of the year: Lehigh/Lafayette, Richmond/W&M, HC/BU, G'Town/Bucknell, and Fordham/Colgate. In basketball, we'd have a mouth-watering array of private schools (the notable exception being W&M) and real mid-major clout.

Again, this is a dream scenario. I'm not holding my breath. But I'm desperately hoping that the league office has something like this up their sleeve.

Notably, the only way this happens is with football scholarships with an academic index.

There would definitely need to be some major change for Richmond to consider the PL again, mainly due to the way the transition was handled by the administration last time, as well as their motivation for it in the first place. (Trying to move without telling anyone, having a goal of not being sucessful with equivalencies so they could drop the sport because sports in general distract students from studying xrolleyesx ) The current administration would have a big job convincing everyone it was going to be different this time.

As CAA football grows it should get very interesting. There is still a lot of bitterness about us leaving the CAA as an all sports member (more accurately about the way the former administration left). However if our former AD continues to run CAA football that should help our cause in staying a football only member.

If we did have to leave CAA football, I think our "dream" situation would be to join the SoCon as a football only member. Something I don't see the SoCon accepting. Which would bring us full circle, since the proposal to bring some of the less sucessful SoCon programs into the CAA for basketball is what started our contemplating leaving in the first place. (Of course, then CAA expansion went in a total different direction).

Sorry, didn't mean to sidetrack your thread. It just seemed you gave a me a good place to rant.:D Now back to the main topic, the future of the PL...

[Franks Tanks]

There would definitely need to be some major change for Richmond to consider the PL again, mainly due to the way the transition was handled by the administration last time, as well as their motivation for it in the first place. (Trying to move without telling anyone, having a goal of not being sucessful with equivalencies so they could drop the sport because sports in general distract students from studying xrolleyesx ) The current administration would have a big job convincing everyone it was going to be different this time.

As CAA football grows it should get very interesting. There is still a lot of bitterness about us leaving the CAA as an all sports member (more accurately about the way the former administration left). However if our former AD continues to run CAA football that should help our cause in staying a football only member.

If we did have to leave CAA football, I think our "dream" situation would be to join the SoCon as a football only member. Something I don't see the SoCon accepting. Which would bring us full circle, since the proposal to bring some of the less sucessful SoCon programs into the CAA for basketball is what started our contemplating leaving in the first place. (Of course, then CAA expansion went in a total different direction).

Sorry, didn't mean to sidetrack your thread. It just seemed you gave a me a good place to rant.:D Now back to the main topic, the future of the PL...

Why did you leave the SoCon in the first place? Or did you only play FB in that League.

[URMite]

You must have some contacts within CAA schools, because I've yet to see a CAA poster on this forum state there is "genuine turmoil" within the ranks. I've read a few who don't like the 14 team league, but nothing close to "genuine turmoil". And frankly, everybody knows you don't have a league championship game in FCS especially if you want to compete in the playoffs. It doesn't bother us in a 12 team league. Making the playoffs and going for the national championship is what it is all about.

If there is so much "genuine turmoil", then why aren't like-minded schools like Richmond, William & Mary and Villanova clamoring to join your ranks? xconfusedx Especially Villanova who one poster on this forum has stated would sell more tickets, increase fan interest, decrease expenses (less travel), continue a Big East rivalry with Georgetown, etc. by playing a Patriot schedule. Playing at the highest level of FCS is a very, very strong unifying force.

And, by the way, BU doesn't have a football program nor have imminent plans to restore one.

There is definitely no "turmoil" from the football only schools wanting to leave. At most there are some fans of all sports members, who would like to expel the affiliate members. But even that is not widespread and is not originating from the conf administration in any way that I can see.

As we grow from 12 to 14 or even 16, there may be some thought of attempting to split the conf, but only if 2 autobids can be acheived. Aside from that the only major change may come when there is a shake up in the BCS conferences for basketball.

[URMite]

Why did you leave the SoCon in the first place? Or did you only play FB in that League.

We were in the SoCon as an all sports member but left before there was I-AA football ('36-'75). I'm not sure why we left, especially to become an independent. Perhaps it was because basketball started to grow in importance and we joined the CAA (ECAC) as an all sports member (CAA had no football) in '79. Nearly a decade later, we dropped down to I-AA football because of the attendance/capacity requirements. Once the transistion was complete, we joined the yankee conf for football (later A10 now CAA) in '86. In some ways we didn't change our thinking about football recruiting from what we had done in 1-A until very recently. But with that change from being able to "play with anybody" to being able to "beat anybody", we now have a chance for consistent sucess instead of the sporatic sucess of the past. Being so small we had to think defensively as a program in I-A (Don't get blown out) in I-AA we can compete on a more even footing.

Remember that the SoCon spun off the SEC in '32 and the ACC in '52 (and 1/2 the original basketball CAA in '75-'76 formed in '82), maybe they will do it again in 2012 for symetry.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

There is definitely no "turmoil" from the football only schools wanting to leave. At most there are some fans of all sports members, who would like to expel the affiliate members. But even that is not widespread and is not originating from the conf administration in any way that I can see.

As we grow from 12 to 14 or even 16, there may be some thought of attempting to split the conf, but only if 2 autobids can be acheived. Aside from that the only major change may come when there is a shake up in the BCS conferences for basketball.

I understand URMite, it is LFN that needs to acknowledge this.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

You must have some contacts within CAA schools, because I've yet to see a CAA poster on this forum state there is "genuine turmoil" within the ranks... If there is so much "genuine turmoil", then why aren't like-minded schools like Richmond, William & Mary and Villanova clamoring to join your ranks?

I don't need to go very far to find this.

http://www.championshipsubdivisionnews.com/?title=caa-football-in-growth-spurt&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1


The Colonial Athletic Association tried for years to put together a football league.

Now the CAA is growing again and might become too big for its own good in a few years.

...

Q: Is 14 too many teams for football in the CAA?

Yeager: “I don’t know. Nobody else has it, so nobody else has really been through that scenario. It’s something we’ll have to spend some time talking about.”

Q: When will the league’s athletic directors begin discussing how to deal with 14 teams?

Yeager: “We’ll have our annual meeting the first week in June in Hilton Head [South Carolina] and the football part of it will be June 1-2, I believe.”

Q: Any idea yet how the scheduling will be done with that many schools?

Yeager: “It’s going to present some interesting scenarios because you start getting fractured. It’s likely that, with two, seven-team divisions, some players could go their entire career without playing some teams in the opposite division. It raises some issues like that, and we’ll have to sort them all out.”

Q: Is it possible that some schools could be asked to leave the conference under these circumstances?

Yeager: “That’s not usually something you do. It doesn’t work that way.”

Note the responses. When asked about kicking out affiliate members it was answered that it's not something you usually do. Not NO, NEVER, what the heck are you talking about, just that, well, it's unusual.

When asked about scheduling, the commissioner acknowledged issues and "fracture" (his words). Not "scheduling will be great with 14 teams," - there's an ISSUE and it needs to be DEALT WITH. You're telling me that this is the sign of a conference that is just fine with 14 teams?

When asked specifically if 14 is too many, he didn't say NO, it's not too many. He said (quote): "I don't know. Nobody else has it."

If I'm a CAA fan, I'm reading this interview with an astounding amount of interest, especially if I'm an affiliate in an over-crowded CAA South like Richmond. If you choose to ignore this interview, fine, that's your prerogative. But please, do me a favor and abstain from pretending everything is fine and that there are no issues that have been acknowledged by the COMMISSIONER HIMSELF.

As for Richmond, W&M or anyone else joining the Patriot League, teams are not willing to put up with the perception of "stepping down" in athletics which is, unfortunately, the stigma of the League overall (no matter how untrue that is, especially in basketball). More than anything, that's been hurting recruiting to the PL cause.

It is PL fans' hope that adding scholarships in some way to football will help diminish the stigma that the PL is only concerned about academics. And if the League makes some sort of announcement about scholarships in some fashion, a school like (say) Richmond might be more willing to go to an academically-oriented conference with an appropriate commitment to athletics - not, as it was floated before, as a way to contain costs and de-emphasize the program.

IMO, a 14 team CAA without a championship game cannot stand, and the CAA commish himself has acknowledged these issues and doesn't seem to have ruled out expelling members. If members are expelled, pushed or whatever, out, where would they go? For some schools, the Patriot League would be an option possibly made more palatable with football scholarships.

[Ruler]

Does this mean AE Football is alive and well ???????

[URMite]

I don't need to go very far to find this.

http://www.championshipsubdivisionnews.com/?title=caa-football-in-growth-spurt&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1



Note the responses. When asked about kicking out affiliate members it was answered that it's not something you usually do. Not NO, NEVER, what the heck are you talking about, just that, well, it's unusual.

When asked about scheduling, the commissioner acknowledged issues and "fracture" (his words). Not "scheduling will be great with 14 teams," - there's an ISSUE and it needs to be DEALT WITH. You're telling me that this is the sign of a conference that is just fine with 14 teams?

When asked specifically if 14 is too many, he didn't say NO, it's not too many. He said (quote): "I don't know. Nobody else has it."

If I'm a CAA fan, I'm reading this interview with an astounding amount of interest, especially if I'm an affiliate in an over-crowded CAA South like Richmond. If you choose to ignore this interview, fine, that's your prerogative. But please, do me a favor and abstain from pretending everything is fine and that there are no issues that have been acknowledged by the COMMISSIONER HIMSELF.

As for Richmond, W&M or anyone else joining the Patriot League, teams are not willing to put up with the perception of "stepping down" in athletics which is, unfortunately, the stigma of the League overall (no matter how untrue that is, especially in basketball). More than anything, that's been hurting recruiting to the PL cause.

It is PL fans' hope that adding scholarships in some way to football will help diminish the stigma that the PL is only concerned about academics. And if the League makes some sort of announcement about scholarships in some fashion, a school like (say) Richmond might be more willing to go to an academically-oriented conference with an appropriate commitment to athletics - not, as it was floated before, as a way to contain costs and de-emphasize the program.

IMO, a 14 team CAA without a championship game cannot stand, and the CAA commish himself has acknowledged these issues and doesn't seem to have ruled out expelling members. If members are expelled, pushed or whatever, out, where would they go? For some schools, the Patriot League would be an option possibly made more palatable with football scholarships.

Actually I was a bit reassured when this article came out. Especially if you read the second part of his last answer instead of the first. "It doesn’t work that way.”

I know there is a contingent at all of the all sport VA schools that felt betrayed when we left and would like to see us left without a conference affiliation. So I was expecting the worse, and it could still be forthcoming.

But as for the commissioner, it appears he does see UR football as an asset, but he rarely saw eye to eye with our former president or our current AD. I think that is part of the reason he hired our former AD to head CAA football operations as a buffer. I see the commissioner as shrewd not devious, maybe that is why I don't read his comments as that ominious.

I concede that scheduling is going to be a nightmare and that is why the conference is searching for a way to make two divisions (maybe even two affilated conferences) work. I see his comments as saying that they are still looking for a better scheduling scheme.

Of course, a lot could still happen at individual schools over the next 2 to 3 years without any prompting from the conference.

And to be clear, I agree that the PL as a "step down" is more perception than reality. I just believe our former president wasn't planning on making any realistic provisions for equivalents, which would have meant we would be playing in the PL as a true non-scholarship program.

[MplsBison]

When asked about kicking out affiliate members it was answered that it's not something you usually do. Not NO, NEVER, what the heck are you talking about, just that, well, it's unusual.

That's because the aforementioned schools usually see the writing on the wall and decide themselves to leave the conference rather than face the shame and embarrassment of actually having to be asked to leave.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

LFN, I'm with URMite on this one, I too think you're extrapolating his comments way too far. And the opinions you stated earlier today are pretty extreme if you're basing it only on that interview with Mr. Yeager. That's JMHO.

BTW, that's twice you quoted Mr. Yeager and have chosen to omit or ignore the same sentence.


Yeager: “That’s not usually something you do. It doesn’t work that way.”

I'm sorry, but I read that to mean that jettisoning teams is less likely to happen. No, it's not a guarantee, but it sure doesn't mean that kicking teams out is the game plan.

BTW, I know everything isn't fine, but I also know it isn't as catastrophic as the picture you're trying to paint. And even with "the issues", I prefer them to the alternatives. Even if it goes to two affiliated conferences under the same administrative umbrella.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

That's because the aforementioned schools usually see the writing on the wall and decide themselves to leave the conference rather than face the shame and embarrassment of actually having to be asked to leave.

Seriously, when have any schools chosen to leave a conference on their own? I can think of VMI and Davidison, but they wanted to go a different direction. I don't think the SoCon was pushing them out. Temple sure didn't, they had to be asked.

[MplsBison]

Seriously, when have any schools chosen to leave a conference on their own?

NDSU and SDSU left the GWFC on their own just this year.

[Go...gate]

Seriously, when have any schools chosen to leave a conference on their own? I can think of VMI and Davidison, but they wanted to go a different direction. I don't think the SoCon was pushing them out. Temple sure didn't, they had to be asked.

Fordham checked out of the Patriot League as a full member.

[Dane96]

How about the CAA-FOUR?

[CrusaderBob]

Boston College, Virginia Tech, and Miami left the Big East.

[DFW HOYA]

And to be clear, I agree that the PL as a "step down" is more perception than reality. I just believe our former president wasn't planning on making any realistic provisions for equivalents, which would have meant we would be playing in the PL as a true non-scholarship program.

Unless you're coming from the MAAC or Pioneer, it probably is a step down. The PL leadership continues to think that this model, an underpublicized one at that, is going to draw interest from W&M and UR when, as presently constituted, it won't.

[Fordham]

I think there's enough in those comments that any affiliate member is going to be updating contingency plans. Now throw in a scholarship football PL and I think that would be pretty compelling for some schools to either jump at or at least have at the top of their alternatives list.

That said, I can say that our full sport experience with the PL on the first go-round has made it infinitely more difficult to ever see that happening again. Right or wrong, that move has been viewed by most Fordham faithful as a disasterous one and there would be mutiny if it were proposed again anytime soon; whereas if we had never been full sport members and then had come in AFTER the league had agreed to hoops schollies or even further after Bucknell's good hoops' runs, I think there would be a great chance of us joining for all sports. I write this b/c I wonder how much the failed effort of 2 - 3 years ago by UR's president is going to influence UR's ability to revisit the PL as an alternative (w or w/out schollies)?

[Jackman]

Seriously, when have any schools chosen to leave a conference on their own?

Many times, but most of the recent ones involve the Big East in some way. Just about everyone there came from someone else's conference.

[89Hen]

Seriously, when have any schools chosen to leave a conference on their own?
I-AA: Jacksonville State, Samford, Youngstown, EIU, NDSU, SDSU, Towson, Stony Brook, Austin Peay...

I-A: South Carolina, Boston College, Virginia Tech, Miami, FSU, Cincy, Louisville, UTEP, SMU, TCU, Tulsa...

[DetroitFlyer]

Unless you're coming from the MAAC or Pioneer, it probably is a step down. The PL leadership continues to think that this model, an underpublicized one at that, is going to draw interest from W&M and UR when, as presently constituted, it won't.

As an entire conference, the PFL may not yet be on the PL level, but trust me, we are gaining. The top of the PFL, ( Dayton, San Diego, Drake, Morehead State ), could hang with any and all PL teams now I think.... The "mid-tier", Davidson and maybe JU could pull an upset once in a while, but the lower tier, Butler, Valparaiso, and Campbell have a ways to go.... Butler has had some very good recruiting classes last year and this year, so I expect them to move into the mid-tier. Valpo is working hard to build their program and expects to be competitive with YSU in a few years. Who know how Campbell will turn out....

If the PL maintains the status quo, I expect the PFL to "catch up" in the next few years....

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I think there's enough in those comments that any affiliate member is going to be updating contingency plans. Now throw in a scholarship football PL and I think that would be pretty compelling for some schools to either jump at or at least have at the top of their alternatives list.

That said, I can say that our full sport experience with the PL on the first go-round has made it infinitely more difficult to ever see that happening again. Right or wrong, that move has been viewed by most Fordham faithful as a disasterous one and there would be mutiny if it were proposed again anytime soon; whereas if we had never been full sport members and then had come in AFTER the league had agreed to hoops schollies or even further after Bucknell's good hoops' runs, I think there would be a great chance of us joining for all sports. I write this b/c I wonder how much the failed effort of 2 - 3 years ago by UR's president is going to influence UR's ability to revisit the PL as an alternative (w or w/out schollies)?

This is an excellent point. This is why I've always in the past pooh-poohed the idea of Richmond coming to the PL - the well was far too poisoned. To a lesser extent, the same issue is in play at W&M too - long, long ago, they floated the idea about joining and also shot it down for similar reasons.

Having said all that, my impression is that the PL leadership has their sights on some "big fish". Think of it this way: Marist, rightly or wrongly, was seen as "small fish". That's why I think the PL has their sights on another D-I school - all D-IIIs, with the possible exception of RPI or Johns Hopkins (or, until recently, Hobart), are simply too small potatoes to consider.

The PL has an excellent product on the field. They are competitive; they have proven that they can compete for NCAA championships in FCS football and are a strong mid-major conference in men's basketball. They suffer needlessly because the perception is that they don't care about fielding good athletic teams.

I'll be posting about this today.

[jcf5445]

I-AA: Jacksonville State, Samford, Youngstown, EIU, NDSU, SDSU, Towson, Stony Brook, Austin Peay...

I-A: South Carolina, Boston College, Virginia Tech, Miami, FSU, Cincy, Louisville, UTEP, SMU, TCU, Tulsa...

Honestly, I can only think of 2 examples of Division I teams getting kicked out of their conference - Temple and Texas-Pan American. Temple was given plenty of chances to meet Big East standards before they were given the boot, and UTPA violated almost every rule in the book before the Sun Belt waved goodbye.

Basically, I think a conference would be stupid to ever kick a team out without good reason, or else who would want to join? Temple drawing 15000 fans per game was plenty of reason for them not to belong in a BCS conference, and UTPA living on probation year after year also warranted expulsion. I seriously doubt the CAA kicks anyone out, but I would not be surprised at all to see the conference split, especially if George Mason decides to add a team pushing the number to 15. The A10 or the America East would probably decide to sponsor the CAA affiliates.

[MplsBison]

No, I don't think it will come to the CAA having to ask teams to leave.

They'll leave on their own.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

No, I don't think it will come to the CAA having to ask teams to leave.

They'll leave on their own.

If this is true (and the consensus seems to be that this is true), the PL leadership had better be LOBBYING to get them in the PL fold... not just sitting back and waiting for some school president to approach them.

And everyone knows the track record for the Patriot League on that... How long have we been at seven FB members?

[MplsBison]

I can only assume you're talking about Richmond?

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

OK, you got me, many have left their conferences, but I thought it was implied that we're talking about when in similar situations as today's CAA Football League. For example, multitudes of people have yakked about the A-10 all sports league being too big and how certain members don't belong. Yet, not one has moved to a new conference on their own nor has any school been expelled from the league.

One other thing, in every example given, the schools that left took a step upward or to join more like-minded schools. I'm going to stay out of the Patriot League evaluation, but every scenario for AE Football that I've seen is clearly a step down. Schools don't voluntarily take a step down unless there is a change in philosophy similar to Davidison going to the non-scholarship model. So far I haven't seen any philosophy changes at any of the CAA affiliate schools.

[JoltinJoe]

I think there's enough in those comments that any affiliate member is going to be updating contingency plans. Now throw in a scholarship football PL and I think that would be pretty compelling for some schools to either jump at or at least have at the top of their alternatives list.

That said, I can say that our full sport experience with the PL on the first go-round has made it infinitely more difficult to ever see that happening again. Right or wrong, that move has been viewed by most Fordham faithful as a disasterous one and there would be mutiny if it were proposed again anytime soon; whereas if we had never been full sport members and then had come in AFTER the league had agreed to hoops schollies or even further after Bucknell's good hoops' runs, I think there would be a great chance of us joining for all sports. I write this b/c I wonder how much the failed effort of 2 - 3 years ago by UR's president is going to influence UR's ability to revisit the PL as an alternative (w or w/out schollies)?

This is an excellent point. And as a follow up ...

At the time the PL formed, Fordham wanted to be included as an associate, football only member. Fordham was a member of the Metro Atlantic Athletic Conference at the time, and wanted to retain all-sports membership in the MAAC specifically because of basketball scholarships.

But the PL wanted Fordham as an all-sports member, and Fordham relented.

If Fordham had originally joined as a football-only member, it is conceivable that Fordham's move to the A-10 never would have happened. Fordham started looking for a new all-sports association in the mid-1990s, after the fortunes of its basketball took a nose dive. The A-10 was seeking new members right around the same time, and the deal was struck. If Fordham had not been so eagerly looking, however, perhaps that A-10 move never would have happened.

So consider this: years go by, Fordham is still in the MAAC. Suddenly the PL goes scholarship, and invites Fordham as a full-member. Fordham's options are to stay in the MAAC, or join a full scholarship PL which has seen a number of its teams play competitively in the NCAA tournament.

I think, under these hypothetical facts, Fordham jumps at the PL offer and considers it a step up.

So, yes, perhaps the mistake was to force Fordham into full membership before it was willing to do so.

[89Hen]

Basically, I think a conference would be stupid to ever kick a team out without good reason, or else who would want to join?
Unless it already has enough teams who play all sports. xsmiley_wix I don't necessarily want the CAA to kick teams out, but I wouldn't mind if the football only left if we got to 8+ all sport members with football. I still wouldn't mind seeing Albany added to make it 9.

Northeastern
Hofstra
Delaware
Towson
William and Mary
James Madison
Old Dominion
Georgia State

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Honestly, I can only think of 2 examples of Division I teams getting kicked out of their conference - Temple and Texas-Pan American. Temple was given plenty of chances to meet Big East standards before they were given the boot, and UTPA violated almost every rule in the book before the Sun Belt waved goodbye.

Basically, I think a conference would be stupid to ever kick a team out without good reason, or else who would want to join? Temple drawing 15000 fans per game was plenty of reason for them not to belong in a BCS conference, and UTPA living on probation year after year also warranted expulsion. I seriously doubt the CAA kicks anyone out, but I would not be surprised at all to see the conference split, especially if George Mason decides to add a team pushing the number to 15. The A10 or the America East would probably decide to sponsor the CAA affiliates.

The A-10 held the auto-bid but chose not to continue sponsoring football a short while ago. If they REALLY wanted to sponsor football, they could have pushed all sports members Fordham or Duquesne to come aboard. They could have offered all sports membership to Hofstra and/or Northeastern to shift the balance of power. I think most CAA folks feel that one year of CAA administration has exposed how poorly the A-10 administered the league.

America East screwed the pooch years ago when Delaware pushed them to sponsor football (Towson and Hofstra were in AE then too). The current AD is the former Maine AD who allegedly got the job by promising that he would add ice hockey and football to AE. Ice hockey was undermined by an all sports member of AE (Boston University) that plays ice hockey! xeekx Even Big East members BC and PC didn't have a problem with their teams playing under the America East banner!! So far AE Football hasn't shown any legs at all. BU wouldn't cooperate on ice hockey which they play, why would they cooperate with football? xconfusedx UMBC allegedly had an offer from the Ravens that would have built facilities and basically given them FCS Football but it was turned down. UVM dropped football in 1974. Hartford and Binghamton have shown no interest or ability to sponsor football.

Both of these leagues have one thing in common, well actually two -- a mix of football (minority) and non-football (majority) schools as well as mediocre leadership. Based on these two factors, why is it that so many people think either league will sponsor football?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

OK, you got me, many have left their conferences, but I thought it was implied that we're talking about when in similar situations as today's CAA Football League. For example, multitudes of people have yakked about the A-10 all sports league being too big and how certain members don't belong. Yet, not one has moved to a new conference on their own nor has any school been expelled from the league.

One other thing, in every example given, the schools that left took a step upward or to join more like-minded schools. I'm going to stay out of the Patriot League evaluation, but every scenario for AE Football that I've seen is clearly a step down. Schools don't voluntarily take a step down unless there is a change in philosophy similar to Davidison going to the non-scholarship model. So far I haven't seen any philosophy changes at any of the CAA affiliate schools.

Very true. The affiliate schools for the CAA were looking forward to see what an active commissioner could do with the CAA brand on what was the A-10 as opposed to the laissez-faire basketball-first Linda Bruno. Give the CAA commissioner credit. He brilliantly convinced Northeastern to become a full-member, effectively dividing the Northern affiliate contingent of the A-10 and in effect forcing them all to come along to the CAA.

Now, leaving the CAA for an AE conference, what sort of leadership is the AE commissioner going to offer the Northern schools? How will they keep UMass from trying to jump to FBS? How actively will they pursue an autobid? Is their time in regards to dithering about football over? It's simply too uncertain. Why give up an autobid unwillingly if you're not getting anything in return?

The PL's pitch in there is that you will be basically even with the CAA (with some form of scholarships) competitively, while being a gateway academically to become a national/global institution - with close academic ties as well to the Ivy League. That can be a compelling pitch for a private school with high academics like Villanova or Richmond, who right now are private schools in a state school conference. But it will never work with a perceived "downgrade" in an important sport like football.

[jcf5445]

The A-10 held the auto-bid but chose not to continue sponsoring football a short while ago. If they REALLY wanted to sponsor football, they could have pushed all sports members Fordham or Duquesne to come aboard. They could have offered all sports membership to Hofstra and/or Northeastern to shift the balance of power. I think most CAA folks feel that one year of CAA administration has exposed how poorly the A-10 administered the league.

America East screwed the pooch years ago when Delaware pushed them to sponsor football (Towson and Hofstra were in AE then too). The current AD is the former Maine AD who allegedly got the job by promising that he would add ice hockey and football to AE. Ice hockey was undermined by an all sports member of AE (Boston University) that plays ice hockey! xeekx Even Big East members BC and PC didn't have a problem with their teams playing under the America East banner!! So far AE Football hasn't shown any legs at all. BU wouldn't cooperate on ice hockey which they play, why would they cooperate with football? xconfusedx UMBC allegedly had an offer from the Ravens that would have built facilities and basically given them FCS Football but it was turned down. UVM dropped football in 1974. Hartford and Binghamton have shown no interest or ability to sponsor football.

Both of these leagues have one thing in common, well actually two -- a mix of football (minority) and non-football (majority) schools as well as mediocre leadership. Based on these two factors, why is it that so many people think either league will sponsor football?


I don't have any inside information on the A10 or the America East, so any prediction on my part that either of the two will sponsor football is purely speculation. However, I do believe the CAA will split and somebody will sponsor those that split off, whether it be the A10, America East, or whoever.

One problem leading to the split will be unbalanced scheduling. At 12, this is already a small problem, but it will get much worse with 14 members. Heck, unbalanced scheduling was the real reason the WAC split up almost 10 years ago (I know BYU and the 7 dwarfs claim it was due to a "compromise in the athletic integrity of WAC members" or some nonsense, but the real reason is that they wanted to play - for the most part - the same conference teams every year instead of shuffling 4 in and 4 out every other year). I don't think it will be any different in the CAA.

Another problem unique to FCS is that if the CAA averages 4 bids per year in a 14 team league, then there will probably be 2 or 3 schools every year that will feel as though they were given a much tougher row to hoe than some of the teams that got in.

Therefore, I personally believe the CAA will split. They may make it a little while at 14, but if membership hits 15, that will be the breaking point.

[URMite]

A little more on my perspective...

We left the CAA because the CAA commissioner always wanted CAA football and therefore was looking to expand with any team that had both FCS football and Div-I basketball, no matter how bad they were at both. It didn't matter, he needed 6 teams to qualify. Our current AD came from the ACC and always thinks basketball first and will continue to look for ways to move that sport closer to the BCS level. Therefore we moved to the A10 (no need to bore you with the double flip/flop that angered the rest of the CAA). The 2 biggest problems with the A10 are the patchwork of schools involved and the lack of coherent leadership. We never had an issue with the quality of CAA admin just a different goal. A10 Admin is going to change, to what I have no idea.

I think one of the reasons that I don't see the CAA commissioner interview as that negative is because I saw how bad relations with the CAA were right after the move. It may not be completely repaired but it has steadily improved since CAA football became inevitable in 2005. Actually I believe we were asked to lead the affiliates into accepting playing under the CAA banner, our former AD is head of CAA football operations, and we are playing more CAA teams in sports other than football.

As for Richmond and the PL, There is a faction that has always been asking to join a conference with more academically inclined athletes. Our own academics have not always been on the level of the PL but when our academics were good not excellent our athletes blended in with the student body. I am not sure if the athletes have kept up with the improvement of the student body as a whole. So in some ways it would seem like a fit, but our former president first attempted to take our conference change to a trustee vote without disclosing it to the school community at large, then after it was discovered spoke to the football team stating that this move is for your own good because you can not compete in the CAA. Therefore it would be difficult to join as long as that incident is still in most people's memory, unless they can be convinced that something has changed.

Lastly as for our program, I think we are moving in the right direction. Our recruiting has taken a more modern flavor, instead of looking for players who would fit into playing schemes from the 70s. We restored our full compliment of scholarships after temporarily dipping into the low 50s while adjusting for title IX. And our former coaches experience with equivalencies seems to have shown us how to add even further to our depth. Finally our current president seems to see the value of all sports and is even willing to get personally involved.

[89Hen]

A little more on my perspective...

We left the CAA because the CAA commissioner always wanted CAA football and therefore was looking to expand with any team that had both FCS football and Div-I basketball, no matter how bad they were at both.

Our current AD came from the ACC and always thinks basketball first and will continue to look for ways to move that sport closer to the BCS level. Therefore we moved to the A10
I'm not sure I agree with your first point, but agree that that second point was the real impetus.

The perception was that the A10 was better at basketball and increasing the gap. Unfortunately for UR, the CAA ended up closing a lot of that gap instead of falling further behind. If fear of football and bad programs were the real reason, UNC-W, VCU, GMU and ODU would have bolted before UR.

[URMite]

I'm not sure I agree with your first point, but agree that that second point was the real impetus.

The perception was that the A10 was better at basketball and increasing the gap. Unfortunately for UR, the CAA ended up closing a lot of that gap instead of falling further behind. If fear of football and bad programs were the real reason, UNC-W, VCU, GMU and ODU would have bolted before UR.

I wasn't talking about who the CAA eventually added when UR, AU, & ECU left. I was talking about fear of adding teams that were unsucessful at both football & basketball.

In our last years, the CAA wanted to add VMI, East Tennessee, Tenn-Chatt among others. Our AD didn't see that as improving the basketball profile of the conference. But the commissioner seemed determined to do it so that with UR, JMU, W&M the CAA would qualify as a football conference. Then a spot in the A10 opened up, and the A10 appeared much more likely to become a BCS conference than what was the CAA at that time did.

After we left, the CAA found much better options from the top of the AE than the bottom of the SoCon. The schools that were added aided both sports, bringing more FCS football to the CAA, and solidifying the CAA as one of the best mid-major basketball conf.

I don't want to get into too much discussion of A10/CAA basketball on football board, but I will say I miss the feeling of solidarity that we had in the CAA but also think there is more potential upside in the A10 (even if it is unlikely to be reached).

[Fordham]

This is an excellent point. And as a follow up ...

At the time the PL formed, Fordham wanted to be included as an associate, football only member. Fordham was a member of the Metro Atlantic Athletic Conference at the time, and wanted to retain all-sports membership in the MAAC specifically because of basketball scholarships.

But the PL wanted Fordham as an all-sports member, and Fordham relented.

If Fordham had originally joined as a football-only member, it is conceivable that Fordham's move to the A-10 never would have happened. Fordham started looking for a new all-sports association in the mid-1990s, after the fortunes of its basketball took a nose dive. The A-10 was seeking new members right around the same time, and the deal was struck. If Fordham had not been so eagerly looking, however, perhaps that A-10 move never would have happened.

So consider this: years go by, Fordham is still in the MAAC. Suddenly the PL goes scholarship, and invites Fordham as a full-member. Fordham's options are to stay in the MAAC, or join a full scholarship PL which has seen a number of its teams play competitively in the NCAA tournament.

I think, under these hypothetical facts, Fordham jumps at the PL offer and considers it a step up.

So, yes, perhaps the mistake was to force Fordham into full membership before it was willing to do so.

Now THAT is an excellent point (Fordham mutual admiration society required beginning of post). The big question there is whether or not HC would have been successful getting hoops schollies implemented if we had not left over that issue just prior. Losing us at that point was likely a huge disappointment but losing HC soon after may have been catastrophic and would have likely put a bullet in the league.

When did HC issue their 'hoops schollie or go home' ultimatum? Wondering how closely it matched with Fr. Gerry Reedy's tenure as President? I believe he was President from '94 until '98 and he was both a Fordham guy (and still is and is a great, great guy) and close friends with our then-president Joseph O'Hare, S.J. I think that this right around the time we were leaving and HC then made their departure and it's surprising to me that we wouldn't have worked more in concert on the issue.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Now, leaving the CAA for an AE conference, what sort of leadership is the AE commissioner going to offer the Northern schools? How will they keep UMass from trying to jump to FBS? How actively will they pursue an autobid? Is their time in regards to dithering about football over? It's simply too uncertain. Why give up an autobid unwillingly if you're not getting anything in return?


Can't believe that Husky Alum hasn't pounced all over that! Couldn't ask for a better set up line from a straight man!! Still, things are much better since the Tan Man and his newspaper reading moved on.

So far, the answers to your questions (JMHO) are:

1. Still waiting to see it.
2. Jump to FBS, you've got to be kidding, not enough influence to be a factor. You should have asked about influence to get UMass to align with the AE schools, but even that is a stretch.
3. It's going to take more than an auto bid for them to pull off AE Football, but I have to give them at least enough credit to know that an auto bid is a mandatory starting point.
4. Not sure the issue is dithering when non-football schools are in the majority and having enough football schools in your all sports league would probably negatively impact that majority.
5. Exactly, besides I haven't seen any AE Football scenario that provides enough in return for UNH even with an auto bid. Especially until we see if the Big East implodes over football and if all sports CAA members Northeastern, Towson, Hofstra and William & Mary have different visions for their football future than JMU, ODU, and GA State. (I left out Delaware because I'm not sure which course they'd take if JMU, ODU and GA State opted for associating with similar schools that could attract 25K+ crowds.)