I thought Yale folks were smart...

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://www.championshipsubdivisionnews.com/?title=either-go-big-bulldogs-or-just-go-home&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1


The theory behind Yale’s residential-college system, which creates “microcosms of the University as a whole,” shows no signs of social imbalance. When asked about athletes, University officials are quick to point out that Yale does not recruit, does not offer athletic scholarships and does not waver from standards of high academic excellence. The truth of the matter, as many freshmen discover, is the contrary: Yale coaches recruit. But unable to offer athletic scholarships, they cannot recruit anyone with any real talent. While other schools justify these kinds of scholarships by pointing to sold-out stadiums, the Ivy League persists under the weight of its own academic standards.

xnutsx

This does, however, show the whole problem with how the Ivy League "brands" itself as a non-scholarship (essentially false, especially now) league that doesn't recruit (false) and that only takes students that have 4.0 GPAs (false). It feeds jokers like the student above.

[DRocksDad]

http://www.championshipsubdivisionnews.com/?title=either-go-big-bulldogs-or-just-go-home&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1



xnutsx

This does, however, show the whole problem with how the Ivy League "brands" itself as a non-scholarship (essentially false, especially now) league that doesn't recruit (false) and that only takes students that have 4.0 GPAs (false). It feeds jokers like the student above.

I agree on only the second and third points you make. What exactly do you mean they aren't non-scholly. They are purely need based. If you are saying most talented athletes are also needy financially then your a bigot.

My youngest WILL PLAY in either the Patriot or Ivy League and he has a 4.2 and he will (hopefully) get some grant money.

[Franks Tanks]

I agree on only the second and third points you make. What exactly do you mean they aren't non-scholly. They are purely need based. If you are saying most talented athletes are also needy financially then your a bigot.

My youngest WILL PLAY in either the Patriot or Ivy League and he has a 4.2 and he will (hopefully) get some grant money.

Dude your way out of line with that comment. LFN has written extensively and intillegently about the subject. At least have a clue what you are talking about before name calling.

[DRocksDad]

I realized I had missed a long forum topic AFTER I wrote my comment. It was all under another topic. However, I thought I protected myself when I intentionally started with a big "IF....." Because his statement gave no reason why he looks at the Ivy being virtually a scholly league.

[bonarae]

Where was the thread full of posts you were talking about?

Hmmm...

The Ivy League is already far behind the other schools with good programs (e.g. those in the FBS like Northwestern, Stanford) in terms of athletic performance. Stanford does get a high-rated recruit every now and then... (he did mention Stanford in his column)


This does, however, show the whole problem with how the Ivy League "brands" itself as a non-scholarship (essentially false, especially now) league that doesn't recruit (false) and that only takes students that have 4.0 GPAs (false). It feeds jokers like the student above.

Not really true. The recruits do have some talent but the coaches aren't doing enough to let them perform well. Also consider the schedule the Ivies have, almost no real teams (read: Montana, Appalachian State and Georgia Southern). So that's what I mean by far behind.

But take a look at Duke, that's beyond me. If any Ivy president would approve of any of our teams playing an FBS, Duke would be it. It should be a real battle if any Ivy team will face this (Duke).

[Franks Tanks]

Where was the thread full of posts you were talking about?

Hmmm...

The Ivy League is already far behind the other schools with good programs (e.g. those in the FBS like Northwestern, Stanford) in terms of athletic performance. Stanford does get a high-rated recruit every now and then... (he did mention Stanford in his column)



Not really true. The recruits do have some talent but the coaches aren't doing enough to let them perform well. Also consider the schedule the Ivies have, almost no real teams (read: Montana, Appalachian State and Georgia Southern). So that's what I mean by far behind.

But take a look at Duke, that's beyond me. If any Ivy president would approve of any of our teams playing an FBS, Duke would be it. It should be a real battle if any Ivy team will face this (Duke).

What are you talking about? The Ivy legaue schools intentionally seperated themselves from the athletics arm race. Harvard, Yale, Princeton would be just as good in football as Stanford and Northwestern today IF THE WANTED TO.

Despite all this Ivy football still attracts talented players, as they have as many NFL players as any other FCS league. The statement of the IVies playing no real teams is just wrong--they may not play the typical top 10 FCS teams but it is again of their own choosing and design.


You can berate the position your school has taken, but at least understand why it is that way. But the bottom line is that

1.)the Ivies do recruit, and they recruit some very good players on ocassion.
2.) Yes they do not give scholarships, but they find a way to make school afforbale to athletes through one means or the next and thats what really matters.

[DRocksDad]

OK so we agree they are non-scholly but I now know they "package" aid special for athletes. I am OK with the fairness of less or no work study as the kid is sacrificing 20-30 hours a week to athletics. Packaging more grants and less loans I would say IS questionable practice. But I am not going to complain until my son gets into somewhere in a few years.

[Franks Tanks]

OK so we agree they are non-scholly but I now know they "package" aid special for athletes. I am OK with the fairness of less or no work study as the kid is sacrificing 20-30 hours a week to athletics. Packaging more grants and less loans I would say IS questionable practice. But I am not going to complain until my son gets into somewhere in a few years.

Why? It will be a mute point perhaps anyway with the Ivies as many of the schools have announced they will largely be replacing loans with grants for students below certain income levels. This will make the aid to athletes and regular students virtually similar.

[HIU 93]

Why are we arguing when schools are giving kids the opportunity for education, however they do it?

[Franks Tanks]

Why are we arguing when schools are giving kids the opportunity for education, however they do it?

I am trying to correct what I understand is some mis-conceptions.

[DRocksDad]

Why? It will be a mute point perhaps anyway with the Ivies as many of the schools have announced they will largely be replacing loans with grants for students below certain income levels. This will make the aid to athletes and regular students virtually similar.

If loans vs grants is done based on financial need thats perfect but i thought i read his quote as saying they package in more grants than loans to athletes and THAT would not be fair.

[Franks Tanks]

If loans vs grants is done based on financial need thats perfect but i thought i read his quote as saying they package in more grants than loans to athletes and THAT would not be fair.

Even though it is not the case why would it not be fair? Saying that is the same as saying that true athletic scholarships is also not fair either as the regular students arent talented enough to earn them.

[DRocksDad]

That IS the case according to the quote you provided in this or another post.

Your comparing apples and oranges. Athletic scholarships are offset by academic or other talent scholarships throughout the student body. But giving a grant over a loan to a specific group of students seems unfair to me in an aid program that is supposedly need based only. Don't get me wrong, my kids are athletes so I am all for it.

[Franks Tanks]

That IS the case according to the quote you provided in this or another post.

Your comparing apples and oranges. Athletic scholarships are offset by academic or other talent scholarships throughout the student body. But giving a grant over a loan to a specific group of students seems unfair to me in an aid program that is supposedly need based only. Don't get me wrong, my kids are athletes so I am all for it.


The aid recieved by student-athletes at Lafayette comes from a seperate area specifically earmarked as such. It does not draw away funds from academic aid or regular student aid.

http://www.lafayette.edu/news.php/view/11885

In fact check out the link. Lafayette has recently announced that they will be virtually eliminatng loans to students from families who make less than 100k. This is for all students.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://www.championshipsubdivisionnews.com/?title=yale-football-players-sound-off-at-edito&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1

Two Yale football players ripped this yahoo a new one... xlolx


Given the current campus climate toward offensive speech, it is surprising that Fulmer ignorantly buys into generalizations about student-athletes. We doubt that administrators at numerous New Haven elementary and middle schools would call us “disrespectful” or “disruptive.” Rather, the hundreds of athlete volunteers at these schools are role models for their students.

While Fulmer considers our non-scholarship status as indicative of mediocrity, the stunning successes of Yale’s athletes and teams presents an entirely different picture. In our four years at Yale, we have seen 12 teams become Ivy League champions. Currently, Bulldog rosters are filled with academic/athletic All-Americans, national champions, Olympic qualifiers and potential professional athletes, as well as many athletes who turned down scholarships to attend Yale on their own dime.

[Franks Tanks]

http://www.championshipsubdivisionnews.com/?title=yale-football-players-sound-off-at-edito&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1

Two Yale football players ripped this yahoo a new one... xlolx

Nice--the best part about it is that the piece by the student-athletes was written and researched better than teh one by the nerd calling the athletes dumb--Priceless

[Cleets]

This has been an interesting (although somewhat feisty) thread... xnodx


(Harvard 37 - Yale 7)



xcoffeex

[DRocksDad]

Nice--the best part about it is that the piece by the student-athletes was written and researched better than teh one by the nerd calling the athletes dumb--Priceless

...and as a parent I find it exhilarating to see quality writing (better than I could do) coming from a couple athletes. I can only imagine the difference in a football program within the PL or Ivy compared to the more typical competitive meat market programs full of kids that only made it through the Clearinghouse becuase of our school systems tendency to pass them on to the next grade simply because its easier and gives the school a better report card within their district.

No student left behind = lower the measuring stick. There are NFL players that literally can't read. I digress.

[Franks Tanks]

...and as a parent I find it exhilarating to see quality writing (better than I could do) coming from a couple athletes. I can only imagine the difference in a football program within the PL or Ivy compared to the more typical competitive meat market programs full of kids that only made it through the Clearinghouse becuase of our school systems tendency to pass them on to the next grade simply because its easier and gives the school a better report card within their district.

No student left behind = lower the measuring stick. There are NFL players that literally can't read. I digress.

I cant speak for Ivy teams but I can say that we had a few guys during my years at Lafayette that really made you wonder. They were perfectly acceptable students overall, but it was obvious they couldnt really handle the course work all that well, and typically struggled mightly. So I guess you can say that even at the schools with the "smartest" athletes you still get some guys who really cant handle the work. However making general strokes like the Kid who wrote the original article is just plain lazy and uninformed.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

So I guess you can say that even at the schools with the "smartest" athletes you still get some guys who really cant handle the work.

Ah, but MOST students couldn't handle the work! It's supposed to be hard!

That's the problem with the athletic stigma. If they succeed, it's because they got special treatment and/or they cheated. If they struggle, it's because they're athletes and they're dumb. It's a ridiculous argument.

I think differently when a kid can't make it academically at a PL school. It's not that he's dumb or anything. The courses are hard, and he couldn't hack it and play D-I sports. Let him quit and get his grades up, or transfer to a different school and get a scholarship if they want. No disrespect needed! A PL education simply is not for everybody.

And those that go through with it should be applauded!

[Franks Tanks]

Ah, but MOST students couldn't handle the work! It's supposed to be hard!

That's the problem with the athletic stigma. If they succeed, it's because they got special treatment and/or they cheated. If they struggle, it's because they're athletes and they're dumb. It's a ridiculous argument.

I think differently when a kid can't make it academically at a PL school. It's not that he's dumb or anything. The courses are hard, and he couldn't hack it and play D-I sports. Let him quit and get his grades up, or transfer to a different school and get a scholarship if they want. No disrespect needed! A PL education simply is not for everybody.

And those that go through with it should be applauded!


I agree. Those that couldnt handle the work certainly werent the majority, but as you say it is a big commitment with athletics and most of these kids can transfer and do well or stop playing sports and do better.