PL Scholarships & The Status Quo

[DFW HOYA]

From the winter edition of Holy Cross' alumni magazine:

Clark Booth (moderator): "...Would you like to have football scholarships?"

Richard Regan, A.D: "In a perfect world, sure. But, as things stand, I’m not pushing for them. I was a CFO for a good part of my career. I have a feel for the financial issues we’re seeing right now. So sure, I’d love to have football scholarships, but I don’t think it’s practical or realistic right now...For that reason, I can live with the status quo as long as our peers do."

http://www.holycross.edu/departments/publicaffairs/hcm/winter08/features/feature1a.html

Taking Fordham and Georgetown out of the picture, the need for PL scholarships can't progress without unanimity from its core members. With quotes like this, HC isn't on board.

[Uncle Buck]

I don't think you will see scholly's happen anytime soon in the PL. Like you said, everyone has to be on board and that statement from the HC AD leads you to believe that it just isn't going to happen.

[MplsBison]

No doubt the line "I’d love to have football scholarships" seals the deal on HC's complete lack of desire for scholarships.

[DetroitFlyer]

I just do not understand.... It seems as though the PL spends a fortune on football already, more than almost any other FCS conference. How can this possibly be a primarily financial concern? Very confusing IMHO.

[colorless raider]

From the winter edition of Holy Cross' alumni magazine:

Clark Booth (moderator): "...Would you like to have football scholarships?"

Richard Regan, A.D: "In a perfect world, sure. But, as things stand, I’m not pushing for them. I was a CFO for a good part of my career. I have a feel for the financial issues we’re seeing right now. So sure, I’d love to have football scholarships, but I don’t think it’s practical or realistic right now...For that reason, I can live with the status quo as long as our peers do."

http://www.holycross.edu/departments/publicaffairs/hcm/winter08/features/feature1a.html

Taking Fordham and Georgetown out of the picture, the need for PL scholarships can't progress without unanimity from its core members. With quotes like this, HC isn't on board.

I say let Holy Cross walk and play Tufts. They really only care about hoops and Gilmore will be gone soon-probably to Penn.

[MplsBison]

I just do not understand.... It seems as though the PL spends a fortune on football already, more than almost any other FCS conference. How can this possibly be a primarily financial concern? Very confusing IMHO.


They spend less in equivalencies than all the other autobid conferences.


It's equivalencies that count in the NCAA's eyes.




It's not anyone's fault but themselves for jacking up the cost of their tuition in order to keep non elites from applying.

[carney2]

From the winter edition of Holy Cross' alumni magazine:

Clark Booth (moderator): "...Would you like to have football scholarships?"

Richard Regan, A.D: "In a perfect world, sure. But, as things stand, I’m not pushing for them. I was a CFO for a good part of my career. I have a feel for the financial issues we’re seeing right now. So sure, I’d love to have football scholarships, but I don’t think it’s practical or realistic right now...For that reason, I can live with the status quo as long as our peers do."

http://www.holycross.edu/departments/publicaffairs/hcm/winter08/features/feature1a.html

Taking Fordham and Georgetown out of the picture, the need for PL scholarships can't progress without unanimity from its core members. With quotes like this, HC isn't on board.

No surprises here. The word has been for a few years that

Colgate: gung ho and ready to go.

Lafayette and Lehigh: could be convinced.

Bucknell and Fordham: would need some convincing.

Georgetown and Holy Cross: no way, Jose.

The landscape has changed, however. With some of the schools announcing new financial aid policies, I'm guessing that the topic of football scholarships goes to the back burner while the academics adopt a wait and see attitude.

[DFW HOYA]

I think it's a misconception that Georgetown automatically opposes scholarships when it it sponsors scholarships (few though they may be) in most of its 28 other sports (the most of any Big East school, BTW). However, as an associate member in the PL, Georgetown has no say in it anyway.

Another quote from the HC magazine article may be more telling. A Holy Cross VP said that "I think that there is some sense that the original vision we had (emphasis added) as to how the League would develop has not come true. There are certainly some very positive things about the Patriot League. But there are some negative things about it, too."

This speaks to the Rev. John Brooks philosophy which would have made the Patriot League the NESCAC of Division I instead of a I-AA/FCS playoff conference. Deep down, I think there are still those up in Worcester who would like it that way--see the letters page at the end of the article for this.

Bottom line, if the scholarship issue isn't resolved, this conference is going to face some tough times from outside and from within.

[Dane96]

I have to wonder if this view changes after June-- The NEC is voting to increase rides to a number rumored to be in the 40-45 range.

I think those on this board realize that CCSU, Monmouth, and Albany are on board. I would put the Dukes in the middle-ground with Sacred Heart and St. Francis in the no-go category.

I am not sure if Albany has a vote (and Bryant does not)...but I would think both Albany and Bryant will be "consulted." I do not think that CCSU or Monmouth want to see Albany go. I think Bryant is gung-ho to be a player.

So...if the vote passes, the PL will be hard-pressed to take a look at its athletic ride policy because a 45 scholarship NEC is going to be a real challenge to the PL's current place in the Northeastern football pecking order.

[bison137]

They spend less in equivalencies than all the other autobid conferences.


It's equivalencies that count in the NCAA's eyes.




It's not anyone's fault but themselves for jacking up the cost of their tuition in order to keep non elites from applying.



Another incredibly stupid comment, considering that the PL schools have need-blind admission. PL schools meet 100% of demonstrated financial need, as opposed to many FCS schools who only meet a fraction of its applicants' needs. (NDSU, for example, meets 32% of demonstrated need.) Between 40% and 50% of the students at all PL schools receive financial aid (mostly grants) with the amounts averaging between $23,000 and $32,000 depending on the school.

[MplsBison]

Oh sure, if you are an elite then it's easy to demonstrate that your need is minuscule compared with the real world that public schools deal with. It's not hard to meet 100% of a small demonstrated need.


But, as you say, it's all just smoke and mirrors designed to scare the blue collar kids away from those applications. Once the sweater vests actually get into school, there are plenty of inner circle grants to be had to make the cost of the country club more reasonable.

[TheValleyRaider]

From the winter edition of Holy Cross' alumni magazine:

Clark Booth (moderator): "...Would you like to have football scholarships?"

Richard Regan, A.D: "In a perfect world, sure. But, as things stand, I’m not pushing for them. I was a CFO for a good part of my career. I have a feel for the financial issues we’re seeing right now. So sure, I’d love to have football scholarships, but I don’t think it’s practical or realistic right now...For that reason, I can live with the status quo as long as our peers do."

http://www.holycross.edu/departments/publicaffairs/hcm/winter08/features/feature1a.html

That seems to be the most interesting part of the quote. Without that, it's plain and simple that HC won't be pushing scholarships. But, put that in, and what if you can swing Bucknell and the affiliates to the idea? HC won't push, but can they be pushed? Or is it a chicken/egg argument, that is, HC will only go scholarships if the rest of the PL does, but the PL won't go scholarship without HC? xchinscratchx

Or am I simply reading too much into this? xconfusedx

[TheValleyRaider]

Once the sweater vests actually get into school, there are plenty of inner circle grants to be had to make the cost of the country club more reasonable.

Sweater vests? I though Tressel coached at Gateway and Big 10 schools? xconfusedx xcoolx xrolleyesx

http://www.ysusports.com/traditions/tresseltraditions.jpg

[JoltinJoe]

No surprises here. The word has been for a few years that

Colgate: gung ho and ready to go.

Lafayette and Lehigh: could be convinced.

Bucknell and Fordham: would need some convincing.

Georgetown and Holy Cross: no way, Jose.

The landscape has changed, however. With some of the schools announcing new financial aid policies, I'm guessing that the topic of football scholarships goes to the back burner while the academics adopt a wait and see attitude.

I think Fordham is closer to the "gung ho and ready to go" category.

[MDFAN]

And that $23,000 to $32,000 would easily exceed the equvalent scholarship at many FCS schools. So I don't believe the question of scholarships in the PL are financially driven.

[Fordham]

This is actually very positive news imo. The one school that was the most fervently in the 'no how, no way' category re: PL football schollies just had their AD go on public record that they could be convinced to implement them as long as the rest of the league agreed. That's a far cry from being the major obstacle to making this happen. Not perfect, for sure, but did anyone really expect the most staunch supporter of remaining non-scholly to not only agree to them but actually lead the charge?

... and that's the real question - who will lead that charge? Fordham is definitely in the pro-scholly camp. I am 100% positive of that. Being an affiliate member means that we can only cheer it on and push other PL schools to do so, though. Who from the core pack is going to lead that charge? 13 always felt it would be 'Gate. Is that still the case?

[carney2]

This is actually very positive news imo. The one school that was the most fervently in the 'no how, no way' category re: PL football schollies just had their AD go on public record that they could be convinced to implement them as long as the rest of the league agreed. That's a far cry from being the major obstacle to making this happen. Not perfect, for sure, but did anyone really expect the most staunch supporter of remaining non-scholly to not only agree to them but actually lead the charge?

... and that's the real question - who will lead that charge? Fordham is definitely in the pro-scholly camp. I am 100% positive of that. Being an affiliate member means that we can only cheer it on and push other PL schools to do so, though. Who from the core pack is going to lead that charge? 13 always felt it would be 'Gate. Is that still the case?

In my opinion, yes. The "problem," as I pointed out earlier, is that the latest Ivy-lite developments in financial aid will delay this for a while longer as the powers that be congratulate themselves that they've done something and sit back with their brandy to see how it all plays out.

[DFW HOYA]

The "problem," as I pointed out earlier, is that the latest Ivy-lite developments in financial aid will delay this for a while longer as the powers that be congratulate themselves that they've done something and sit back with their brandy to see how it all plays out.

Another concern out there is that a 40-45 scholarship NEC might start appealing to a restless Fordham program and throw the league into a period of instability.

Finally, the Holy Cross VP also said in the article that "geographically, the league is somewhat problematic for us." Any idea what he's talking about, or is HC beginning to lay the groundwork to start looking somewhere else?

[Franks Tanks]

Oh sure, if you are an elite then it's easy to demonstrate that your need is minuscule compared with the real world that public schools deal with. It's not hard to meet 100% of a small demonstrated need.


But, as you say, it's all just smoke and mirrors designed to scare the blue collar kids away from those applications. Once the sweater vests actually get into school, there are plenty of inner circle grants to be had to make the cost of the country club more reasonable.

Again you dont know what your talking about. I grew up about as blue collar as you get. Both of my grandfathers were anthracite coal miners. My father has been a foreman/supervisor at various factories over the years, and my mom in an LPN. I recieved interest from wand was accepted into a few Patriot League Schools. At Lafayette most of the guys on the team had much more in commom with me than the sweather vest types you speak of. Your inferiority complex shines again, what school did yo get rejected by that still hurts--Northwestern? U 0f Chicago???

[breezy]

DFW wrote --

Finally, the Holy Cross VP also said in the article that "geographically, the league is somewhat problematic for us." Any idea what he's talking about, or is HC beginning to lay the groundwork to start looking somewhere else?

***

In the PL, HC is the only New England team. Travel time, and missed class time, is an issue for some at HC. For sports other than football, the travel problem is compounded when you consider Navy and American, although Army is not a bad distance. An ideal situation for HC would be to add another New England team to the league, but no situation has developed that would permit that to happen as yet.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the problem that always seem to be raised when scholarships are discussed -- Title IX and the need to offer an equivalent number of scholarships for women's sports.

[JoltinJoe]

Another concern out there is that a 40-45 scholarship NEC might start appealing to a restless Fordham program and throw the league into a period of instability.

This is not likely. Fordham wants scholarships, but also values its rivalries with its most played opponents, Holy Cross and Georgetown. One gridiron club member, with close ties to the inner thoughts of the athletic department, described Fordham as pro-scholarship, but ultimately "joined at the hip" with Georgetown and Holy Cross for football.

[Tribe4SF]

Another concern out there is that a 40-45 scholarship NEC might start appealing to a restless Fordham program and throw the league into a period of instability.

Finally, the Holy Cross VP also said in the article that "geographically, the league is somewhat problematic for us." Any idea what he's talking about, or is HC beginning to lay the groundwork to start looking somewhere else?


This is what I have been wondering about. The league's identity would seem fragile enough that defections could become a real possibility. With only five full members playing football, the loss of Fordham could spell the end of the Patriot as an auto-bid conference.

I think some shakeup in the CAA will eventually happen, with some of the New England schools, and possibly Villanova looking for new conference affiliation. With the current aid policies, the Patriot won't be attractive to anyone, and would be at risk of falling apart as a football league.

[Tribe4SF]

This is not likely. Fordham wants scholarships, but also values its rivalries with its most played opponents, Holy Cross and Georgetown. One gridiron club member, with close ties to the inner thoughts of the athletic department, described Fordham as pro-scholarship, but ultimately "joined at the hip" with Georgetown and Holy Cross for football.

Times change, and programs find themselves with changing priorities. Will Fordham be willing to forgo remaining a competitive FCS program in order to retain a shared identity with two schools it has only a football league membership with? W&M had long rivalries with Va Tech, Hampden-Sydney and Randolph Macon, but the four schools are world's apart now when it comes to football.

[MplsBison]

At Lafayette most of the guys on the team had much more in commom with me than the sweather vest types you speak of.

"On the team" being the key phrase.

Would you and your fellow teammates have been able to afford the costs of the school without your football skills? Doubtful.


The socioeconomic discrimination shown by these schools via their overly high tuition costs is disturbing.




The ideal situation, IMHO, for schools like the Patriot would be for the government to force 25% of the undergrad enrollment to be from families that make 30k a year or less. All of their costs would be paid for by the government.


That would get some real socioeconomic diversity into the school!

[Tribe4SF]

"On the team" being the key phrase.

Would you and your fellow teammates have been able to afford the costs of the school without your football skills? Doubtful.


The socioeconomic discrimination shown by these schools via their overly high tuition costs is disturbing.




The ideal situation, IMHO, for schools like the Patriot would be for the government to force 25% of the undergrad enrollment to be from families that make 30k a year or less. All of their costs would be paid for by the government.


That would get some real socioeconomic diversity into the school!

So, basically, you want to do away with private schools? Haven't learned the lessons about socialism, I guess.xrolleyesx

Many top colleges are doing what you suggest (W&M for one, with its Gateway Program). The difference is that these programs are being funded with private money.

[ngineer]

And that $23,000 to $32,000 would easily exceed the equvalent scholarship at many FCS schools. So I don't believe the question of scholarships in the PL are financially driven.


I agree. It's not the issue of more money, it's how the money is to be spent. It comes down to a philosophical view of the original intent of the PL. If that is going to change it will/must come from the respective BOD's and the Presidents.

I also viewed the comments attributable to Holy Cross as being more of a 'follower' of whatever the 'Core Four' want to do. (Bucknell, Colgate, Lafayette, and Lehigh).

[DTSpider]

Back to football talk...

I agree that the CAA shake-up will have an influence on the Patriot, but from a different perspective.

I see Nova & UR as remainin in the new CAA for the long haul. The pressure for the Patriot will be that Maine, UNH, URI & maybe UMass will be looking for a new home and the NEC will be probably the most appealing option. Would Fordham still want to stay in the Patriot then? I'm not so sure that they would.

Then again, the A10 (not football, but basketball & other sports) appears headed towards a shake-up as well as 14 teams is just too many for a mid-major conference (CAA has the same issue brewing). Fordham may choose to fully align itself with the Patriot.

[Go...gate]

That is a GREAT article. I wish Colgate would do something similar.

[bison137]

.


The socioeconomic discrimination shown by these schools via their overly high tuition costs is disturbing.


That would get some real socioeconomic diversity into the school!


It's obvious that you threw your money away going to NDSU - if you really did - since It's apparent that you never learned basic reading comprehension.

Almost half of the student body at these schools are getting significant financial aid - an average of close to $28,000 per student, most of which are outright grants. And since admission is need-blind, no qualified student is being turned away, and all are getting 100% of demonstrated need met. I was certainly not upper class - nor were any of my friends at BU. A significant percentage were sons and daughters of blue collar workers, farmers, and standard middle class occupations.

Maybe you should address the problems at your own school - where only 32% of demonstrated need is being met, according to the school's statistics. It's clear that you don't understand any of the issues of the Patriot League schools or any of the issues regarding how financial aid is measured.

[JoltinJoe]

Times change, and programs find themselves with changing priorities. Will Fordham be willing to forgo remaining a competitive FCS program in order to retain a shared identity with two schools it has only a football league membership with? W&M had long rivalries with Va Tech, Hampden-Sydney and Randolph Macon, but the four schools are world's apart now when it comes to football.

There is one other thing that joins Georgetown, Holy Cross and Fordham: their identity as Jesuit universities. Not only do they share this same common identity, they are three of the flagship Jesuit higher institutions. Jesuit educators who are taught at one of these schools often become faculty or administrators at one of the other. The connections among the schools run very deep at the highest levels.

[Go...gate]

Times change, and programs find themselves with changing priorities. Will Fordham be willing to forgo remaining a competitive FCS program in order to retain a shared identity with two schools it has only a football league membership with? W&M had long rivalries with Va Tech, Hampden-Sydney and Randolph Macon, but the four schools are world's apart now when it comes to football.

It is awfully hard to overvalue the shared, Jesuit values and academic philosopies of the three schools. I think it is odds-on that they would place a great value on sticking together - I certainly hope it is in the Patriot League.

[Go...gate]

Back to football talk...

I agree that the CAA shake-up will have an influence on the Patriot, but from a different perspective.

I see Nova & UR as remaining in the new CAA for the long haul. The pressure for the Patriot will be that Maine, UNH, URI & maybe UMass will be looking for a new home and the NEC will be probably the most appealing option. Would Fordham still want to stay in the Patriot then? I'm not so sure that they would.

Then again, the A10 (not football, but basketball & other sports) appears headed towards a shake-up as well as 14 teams is just too many for a mid-major conference (CAA has the same issue brewing). Fordham may choose to fully align itself with the Patriot.

I agree as to your comments on Richmond and Villanova. I see them as CAA members in the long term.

[Franks Tanks]

"On the team" being the key phrase.

Would you and your fellow teammates have been able to afford the costs of the school without your football skills? Doubtful.


The socioeconomic discrimination shown by these schools via their overly high tuition costs is disturbing.



The ideal situation, IMHO, for schools like the Patriot would be for the government to force 25% of the undergrad enrollment to be from families that make 30k a year or less. All of their costs would be paid for by the government.


That would get some real socioeconomic diversity into the school!


Yes it would have been a major struggle to afford Lafayette without the football aid, but I would probably still have been able to attend if I chose.


There is no descrimination going on. In fact Lafayette has programs like Posse where they hope to attact minority students. Posse program members are many times given more lee-way in admissions and more aid-Lafayette goes out of its way to attract these students. Also you are not restricting eduacation to the rich--there are plenty of fine public instiutions out there that are both affordable and provide a fine education. Your assertion would be akin to forcing BMW to drop the price of their cars to equal Chevrolet, because its just not fair that those less fortunate people cant afford a BMW.

[MplsBison]

So, basically, you want to do away with private schools?


I guess that depends on your definition of private schools.


If your definition is a school that receives no public money, then no school in the NCAA DI membership is a private school.


They all have students who pay their school bills at least partially with government money. That's no different than a public school that gets money appropriated by the state, just slightly less direct.


Most of them also are into research and receive many millions of dollars in public money via research grants.




This is why "private" schools are subject to title IX gender discrimination laws. They receive government money.



And the fact is that not a single DI school, "public" or "private" would survive without the government money they receive.

[MplsBison]

Almost half of the student body at these schools are getting significant financial aid - an average of close to $28,000 per student, most of which are outright grants. And since admission is need-blind, no qualified student is being turned away, and all are getting 100% of demonstrated need met.


Seeing that the per year costs of attending Bucknell are $50k a year, what you've just said is that the average BU student's family is capable of paying $22k a year.

Life must be hard for them.



If only Bucknell couldn't cherry pick applicants from well off families, then I wonder how quickly those numbers would go down.


If 25% of BU students had a need of $45k a year, it might be a little different.

[MplsBison]

Yes it would have been a major struggle to afford Lafayette without the football aid, but I would probably still have been able to attend if I chose.

I'm sure you could've gotten private loans if you had needed them.

And you would've been in debt.



But that's the name of the game for colleges like yours, isn't it? Get kids signed up for big loans, right?



In fact Lafayette has programs like Posse where they hope to attact minority students.


What do minority students have to do with socioeconomic discrimination?


Last I checked there were poor whites and rich minorities.


Your assertion would be akin to forcing BMW to drop the price of their cars to equal Chevrolet, because its just not fair that those less fortunate people cant afford a BMW.


BMW gets no government aid.


Patriot schools get millions and millions of dollars from the government every year, both in research and in tuition payments made via federal aid.

[MplsBison]

I see socioeconomic discrimination no differently than I see gender discrimination.


Title IX was made for a specific reason.


And for the same reasons, unless the government does something these schools will never change.


We have to force them.

[Go...gate]

Seeing that the per year costs of attending Bucknell are $50k a year, what you've just said is that the average BU student's family is capable of paying $22k a year.

Life must be hard for them.



If only Bucknell couldn't cherry pick applicants from well off families, then I wonder how quickly those numbers would go down.


If 25% of BU students had a need of $45k a year, it might be a little different.

What, precisely, do you mean by this statement?

[Go...gate]

In my opinion, yes. The "problem," as I pointed out earlier, is that the latest Ivy-lite developments in financial aid will delay this for a while longer as the powers that be congratulate themselves that they've done something and sit back with their brandy to see how it all plays out.

Did anybody other than Lafayette and Lehigh change their financial aid policies? Did Bucknell? I think the status quo holds as to Colgate.

[Franks Tanks]

xlolx
I'm sure you could've gotten private loans if you had needed them.

And you would've been in debt.



But that's the name of the game for colleges like yours, isn't it? Get kids signed up for big loans, right?





What do minority students have to do with socioeconomic discrimination?


Last I checked there were poor whites and rich minorities.




BMW gets no government aid.


Patriot schools get millions and millions of dollars from the government every year, both in research and in tuition payments made via federal aid.


Private schools (both college and high school) save the govt plenty of money by removing many students from the public education system. Also buddy the term socioeconomic means both economic and "social" background--so it relevant to speak about race and other factors. You used the word--you should know what it means.

[MplsBison]

What, precisely, do you mean by this statement?

What I mean is simple.


Even if Susie Q. Poorfamily wants to go to Bucknell, her parents will stop her dead in her tracks from applying.

Bucknell weeds out the poor by scaring them out of applying in the first place by jacking the cost of tuition up.



They don't sit in the admission office and say "lets see...good ACT score...good GPA...oh wait, the family only makes 40k a year NEXT".

They don't have to do that. Those kids never apply in the first place. They know they could never afford it.

[MplsBison]

Private schools (both college and high school) save the govt plenty of money by removing many students from the public education system.


Indeed, the government should be so grateful for the service private schools provide.


They pluck the richest and brightest off the top and leave "the system" to babysit the rest of the unworthy.




If private schools are indeed "blind" to economic status, then they won't care in the slightest if 25% of the undergraduate enrollment was forced to come from poor kids, would they?

What do they care if the government pays for those student's costs? They get their money.




Consider it a form of wealth redistribution.

[DFW HOYA]

A flaw in your logic is that some competitive private schools have many more applicants across economic bands than public schools due to the Common Application, which allows students to apply to numerous schools quite easily.

Not all schools use the Common Application (Georgetown, for one, does not due to school-specific essays which are not supported in the CA) but for those that do it extends their reach to lots of kids who would never have considered them in the first place. For example, Boston College had 31,000 applicants this year--a generation ago, they might have had 5,000.

[DTSpider]

I can't speak for every school, but I think that most outside of the Ivies are focused on trying to provide affordable options.

UR has free tuition to any student in Virginia whose parents earn less than $40k/year. In addition, every student is guaranteed to have a financial aid package that limits students to a maximum of $4k/year in debt.

One way this happens is that UR has recently jacked up tuition. The small percentage of students who can afford it pay the full amount and subsidize other students. In addition, UR has significant amounts of money locked up in scholarship programs to complement yearly donations.

[DFW HOYA]

I can't speak for every school, but I think that most outside of the Ivies are focused on trying to provide affordable options. UR has free tuition to any student in Virginia whose parents earn less than $40k/year. In addition, every student is guaranteed to have a financial aid package that limits students to a maximum of $4k/year in debt.


A number of PL schools are going in this direction (Lafayette, for one).

[Franks Tanks]

Indeed, the government should be so grateful for the service private schools provide.


They pluck the richest and brightest off the top and leave "the system" to babysit the rest of the unworthy.




If private schools are indeed "blind" to economic status, then they won't care in the slightest if 25% of the undergraduate enrollment was forced to come from poor kids, would they?

What do they care if the government pays for those student's costs? They get their money.




Consider it a form of wealth redistribution.


Because the whole point is to admit the best students without relation to need--and this is usually bad new for the "rich" kids. How do you not understand what Bison 137 cleary stated? Admissions is need blind, you get in then the next step is financial aid.

[MplsBison]

Saying that you will admit a poor kid based on his academic ability alone has nothing to do with the fact that you price your education out of his family's ability to pay.

[Franks Tanks]

Saying that you will admit a poor kid based on his academic ability alone has nothing to do with the fact that you price your education out of his family's ability to pay.

That kid will get plenty of aid, and it can be highly affordable. Most guidance counselors are aware of these financial aid programs and wouldnt persuade a poor kid to not apply as they understand their need may be met. Lafayette offers academic scholarships as well as need based aid. You would be shocked at how affordable PL schools can be with the generous aid packages offered to bright students.

[USDFAN_55]

Saying that you will admit a poor kid based on his academic ability alone has nothing to do with the fact that you price your education out of his family's ability to pay.

Do you feel like the private school tuition is inflated? From my point of view it is very justified. My avergae class size in my major at USD was ~18 students, and there was a cap of no more than 35 students allowed in general education classes such as math, english, history, sociology, and etc. These small class sizes are not cheap. You get what you pay for.... at private institutions the student has a name, and not just a number like many public universities. The education is very personal. Well worth the moneyxthumbsupx

Now I could understand your argument if these schools were cramming in over 100 students per class, but that is not the case. Maybe you can explain to me why you think private school's tuition is inflated.

[MplsBison]

My avergae class size in my major at USD was ~18 students, and there was a cap of no more than 35 students allowed in general education classes such as math, english, history, sociology, and etc. These small class sizes are not cheap. You get what you pay for.... at private institutions the student has a name, and not just a number like many public universities. The education is very personal. Well worth the moneyxthumbsupx

I understand and I agree with you very much. If you can afford it, then it is worth it.


If you can afford it.





My idea is simply to increase the access that poor kids have to great schools like yours.


Why shouldn't they have access to these schools too? Just because their parents don't make as much money as yours do?

[ngineer]

What I mean is simple.


Even if Susie Q. Poorfamily wants to go to Bucknell, her parents will stop her dead in her tracks from applying.

Bucknell weeds out the poor by scaring them out of applying in the first place by jacking the cost of tuition up.



They don't sit in the admission office and say "lets see...good ACT score...good GPA...oh wait, the family only makes 40k a year NEXT".

They don't have to do that. Those kids never apply in the first place. They know they could never afford it.


Broad brush assumptions not supported by fact. I know, personally, a number of families with combined incomes of about $40-50K whose kids went to Bucknell, Lafayette and Lehigh. They were good students and got a lot of financial aid so that the amount they would have paid to have them go to one of the state schools (i.e. Kutztown, East Stroudsburg, etc) was about the same they had to pay to have them got to the PL.

[kardplayer]

BMW gets no government aid.



Of course it does... I don't know about you, but the only expense that I have that is tax deductible is my mortgage, BMW has almost all of its expenses tax deductible (like every other company).

Not to mention that their corporate HQ is considered (or at least was until a few years ago, I can't find an article to say it was overturned) "farmland" so for 20 acres they pay <$500 a year in property tax, while folks with less than an acre in the same town pay thousands.

[USDFAN_55]

I understand and I agree with you very much. If you can afford it, then it is worth it.


If you can afford it.





My idea is simply to increase the access that poor kids have to great schools like yours.


Why shouldn't they have access to these schools too? Just because their parents don't make as much money as yours do?

Where are the facts that say they don't have access? The money is there to help pay for these kids' education, they just need to be informed about how to go about getting it. That falls back on the high school counselors and parents.

By the way, my parents didn't make much at all when I was attending USD. Thank god for need based money, as well as academic merit.

[DRocksDad]

Give it a rest already. The majority of students in the elite academic institutions (PL, Ivy etc.) come from middle class families. No institution is out of reach to even low-income students these days. They just need to research a little bit, suck it up and work hard and be prepared to responsibly work for the grants, scholarships and loans that the MAJORITY of students receive to some degree.

I am the only 1 of 7 siblings of a low income familiy to go to college. I did so buy getting the military to help me via the College Fund. A 4 year sacrifice to graduate from PSU owing less than 10K. Need based aid is just about handed to those who need it so stop with the haves and have nots. YOu gotta work for it to some degree. Im tired of hearing woah is me stories. Face it, if you don't study and prepare yourself for admission you sure as hell ain't gonna have it handed to you over harder working, more deserving applicants. If a student meets the admissions requirements they have worked to get there. If they got that far then they likely are smart enough to have a plan for funding their education even if it relies highly on aid.

[Go...gate]

Give it a rest already. The majority of students in the elite academic institutions (PL, Ivy etc.) come from middle class families. No institution is out of reach to even low-income students these days. They just need to research a little bit, suck it up and work hard and be prepared to responsibly work for the grants, scholarships and loans that the MAJORITY of students receive to some degree.

I am the only 1 of 7 siblings of a low income family to go to college. I did so buy getting the military to help me via the College Fund. A 4 year sacrifice to graduate from PSU owing less than 10K. Need-based aid is just about handed to those who need it so stop with the haves and have nots. You gotta work for it to some degree. Im tired of hearing woe is me stories. Face it, if you don't study and prepare yourself for admission you sure as hell ain't gonna have it handed to you over harder working, more deserving applicants. If a student meets the admissions requirements they have worked to get there. If they got that far then they likely are smart enough to have a plan for funding their education even if it relies highly on aid.

Agreed. The argument that the poor don't have access to a good private school education died after World War II and we're never going back.

[Go...gate]

I just do not understand.... It seems as though the PL spends a fortune on football already, more than almost any other FCS conference. How can this possibly be a primarily financial concern? Very confusing IMHO.

IMO, Regan is talking out of both sides of his mouth. This is the same brilliant thinking by HC's overall leadership which kept them out of the ECAC Hockey League, and it was a lose-lose situation for all involved - HC ended up in Atlantic Hockey and the ECACHL ended up with Quinnipiac.

Colgate and Holy Cross have a friendly athletic relationship which goes back nearly 75 years, and I very much want it to continue in the context of the PL. But HC really seems to be reckless sometimes when it comes to its conference relationships.

[Franks Tanks]

IMO, Regan is talking out of both sides of his mouth. This is the same brilliant thinking by HC's overall leadership which kept them out of the ECAC Hockey League, and it was a lose-lose situation for all involved - HC ended up in Atlantic Hockey and the ECACHL ended up with Quinnipiac.

Colgate and Holy Cross have a friendly athletic relationship which goes back nearly 75 years, and I very much want it to continue in the context of the PL. But HC really seems to be reckless sometimes when it comes to its conference relationships.

I agree his commnets dont make much sense. Holy Cross beat the door down for B-ball scholly's and now they would be against them for FB? The whole reason for the non-scholarship approach has always been that of philosophy, not necessarily funding. Detroit Flyer is correct in saying that most likely PL schools wouldnt really spend that much more in adding scholly's. This is what makes the comments really bizarre IMO.

[carney2]

This is a ridiculous "conversation." MPLS has a state school attitude and a state school outlook. Consequently he has lost contact with reality. Applicants and their families submit the FAFSA and out of it comes the EFC, or Expected Family Contribution. Most of the schools in question here are almost literally guaranteeing that the remainder will be made up for qualified applicants in financial aid of some sort. Example:

The EFC for little Johnny Undergrad is determined to be $10,000.
Tuition and fees at Ivy U. is $50,000.
Tuition and Fees at State U. is $20,000.

Ivy U. is very heavily endowed and thru grants, loans, work study and what have you offers a financial aid package to Johnny and his family of $40,000. (Not a ridiculous number in this case.) Johnny's family has to come up with $10,000.

State U. is not so well endowed. They come up with a financial aid package that totals $8,000. (Not a ridiculous assumption for many large state schools.) Johnny's family has to come up with $12,000.

Johnny and his family have three decisions to make:

1. Will Johnny be accepted by Ivy U.?

2. Would they prefer that Johnny have the "other name" on his diploma as Ivy U. or State U.?

3. Is the extra $2,000 to attend State U. worth it?

Wake up and smell the coffee and move on to productive arguments. Please.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I'm going to weigh in on this on the blog - an important piece.

But I think the picture on the first page speaks volumes, don't you?

http://www.holycross.edu/departments/publicaffairs/hcm/winter08/issue-images/winter08_feat1.jpg

A big basketball - and no football.

[Go...gate]

I agree his commnets dont make much sense. Holy Cross beat the door down for B-ball scholly's and now they would be against them for FB? The whole reason for the non-scholarship approach has always been that of philosophy, not necessarily funding. Detroit Flyer is correct in saying that most likely PL schools wouldnt really spend that much more in adding scholly's. This is what makes the comments really bizarre IMO.

I love HC as a school and a PL member, but old farts like me remember that they dicked around with the PL on dropping FB scholarships for six years after joining the league, threatened to leave the league over the issue (they loved winning championships every year with essentially an FBS roster) and then threatened to leave the PL over the basketball scholarship issue. Indeed, a small cadre of their alumni and fans have always openly derided the PL. What is also funny is that they flirted with the Big East for awhile in 1978-79 before the BE was formed; however, Dave Gavitt and the BE's founding fathers finally got exasperated and went in another direction. I'm sure it is not Regan's fault; the administration essentially has him tied hand and foot and gagged on all issues, which is why HC continually faces these problems. They don't negotiate well - they want their way or don't want to play. The ECACHL fiasco is the most recent manifestation of this "policy".

[MDFAN]

Indeed, the government should be so grateful for the service private schools provide.


They pluck the richest and brightest off the top and leave "the system" to babysit the rest of the unworthy.




If private schools are indeed "blind" to economic status, then they won't care in the slightest if 25% of the undergraduate enrollment was forced to come from poor kids, would they?

What do they care if the government pays for those student's costs? They get their money.




Consider it a form of wealth redistribution.


Ahh a Democrat that wants to give away the store

[DFW HOYA]

What is also funny is that they flirted with the Big East for awhile in 1978-79 before the BE was formed; however, Dave Gavitt and the BE's founding fathers finally got exasperated and went in another direction.

As discussed earlier, Rev. John Brooks flatly turned down the Big East offer. BC was glad to take the spot.

[Go...gate]

As discussed earlier, Rev. John Brooks flatly turned down the Big East offer. BC was glad to take the spot.

I guess I recall it differently, that there was some more flirting by HC before Brooks said "NO!"

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I finally finished my reaction:

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/

Overall, it was a really great discussion of all these issues at the heart of Patriot League athletics. I had some nit-picks, but overall it was fascinating and required multiple readings.

More and more I think the problem with the "debate" over scholarships is the "either you're with us or with the terrorists" framing of the argument. Either you have scholarships OR grants. Why not simply offer up to 20 "conventional" scholarships and keep grants-in-aid for everyone else? That won't break the bank or Title IX, but you never hear that discussed as an option anywhere.

[Go...gate]

I finally finished my reaction:

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/

Overall, it was a really great discussion of all these issues at the heart of Patriot League athletics. I had some nit-picks, but overall it was fascinating and required multiple readings.

More and more I think the problem with the "debate" over scholarships is the "either you're with us or with the terrorists" framing of the argument. Either you have scholarships OR grants. Why not simply offer up to 20 "conventional" scholarships and keep grants-in-aid for everyone else? That won't break the bank or Title IX, but you never hear that discussed as an option anywhere.

A great discussion, LFN. I also took the opportunity to read the responses to the Holy Cross Magazine forum from HC alumni. Clearly there are a lot of differences but I can't help noting that HC seems to be reaching the position that competing in Division I will be increasingly difficult. There is also a cadre of NESCAC xeekx xbangx xsplatx xnutsx advocates, which appears to be a more recent HC "interest group", as it is at Colgate. I hope that neither Colgate nor Holy Cross ever go in that direction.

[MplsBison]

If a New England area university that is currently in Division I and doesn't give any athletic merit aid wants to go down to DIII and a conference that supports that philosophy, wouldn't that be the best for everyone?

[Go...gate]

If a New England area university that is currently in Division I and doesn't give any athletic merit aid wants to go down to DIII and a conference that supports that philosophy, wouldn't that be the best for everyone?

You are assuming that a small group of individuals is representative of all of the stakeholders of the school. This is not the case. There is a similar misperception at Colgate.

[MplsBison]

Adding athletic merit aid would go a long way in diffusing those misconceptions while at the same time bring the athletic department inline with the DI philosophy.

[DFW HOYA]

If a New England area university that is currently in Division I and doesn't give any athletic merit aid wants to go down to DIII and a conference that supports that philosophy, wouldn't that be the best for everyone?

Hey, don't say that about Boston College... xlolx

[TheValleyRaider]

Adding athletic merit aid would go a long way in diffusing those misconceptions while at the same time bring the athletic department inline with the DI philosophy.

Just because you're confused doesn't mean everyone else is

And what, pray tell, is the "DI philosophy" that we're not following? xeyebrowx

[MplsBison]

Just because you're confused doesn't mean everyone else is

And what, pray tell, is the "DI philosophy" that we're not following? xeyebrowx

It's outlined specifically in the NCAA DI manual.

[MplsBison]

Hey, don't say that about Boston College... xlolx

They give 85 scholarships in football to players based solely on football merit.

[TheValleyRaider]

It's outlined specifically in the NCAA DI manual.

Well, I've got a list of D-I requirements right here: http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/resources/file/eba6994a0d770f7/chart_memreq.pdf?MOD=AJPERES (warning, it's a PDF)

Here's the requirements for being a member of the Division I-Football Championship Subdivision:
Sports Sponsorship: Seven male/mixed and seven female, including two team sports per gender and not more than two emerging sports. (Or six male/mixed and eight female).
Check
Football Attendance Requirements: N/A
Check
Scheduling Requirements (Football): At least 50 percent of games scheduled and played against Football Bowl Subdivision or NCAA Football Championship Subdivison.
Check
Financial Aid Minimums: Fifty percent of max grants in 14 sports; or aggregate expenditure of $964,700 ($482,350 for women) on 38 full grants (19 for women) exclusive of football and basketball; or 50 of full grants (25 for women) excluding football and basketball; or exception for institutions with exceptional reliance on federal assistance for student’s needs.
Check
Emphasis Added

I only included the stuff that pertained here, but there's scheduling requirements for basketball, track and other sports as well. Those are all in the file if you're curious xrulesx

Now, what are we doing wrong, again? xeyebrowx

[CrusaderBob]

I'm going to weigh in on this on the blog - an important piece.

But I think the picture on the first page speaks volumes, don't you?

http://www.holycross.edu/departments/publicaffairs/hcm/winter08/issue-images/winter08_feat1.jpg

A big basketball - and no football.

LFN,

No I don't becasue I also saw the cover of the magazine

http://www.holycross.edu/departments/publicaffairs/hcm/winter08/issue-images/winter08_frontcover.jpg

Also, since HC reinstated scholarships in basketball only, not only did teh action speak volumes, but it was stated explictly and publicly that basketball is our marquee sport.

[CrusaderBob]

I'm going to weigh in on this on the blog - an important piece.

But I think the picture on the first page speaks volumes, don't you?

http://www.holycross.edu/departments/publicaffairs/hcm/winter08/issue-images/winter08_feat1.jpg

A big basketball - and no football.

LFN,

No I don't becasue I also saw the cover of the magazine (available on-line) and all of the pictures that accompanied the print version of the article.

http://www.holycross.edu/departments/publicaffairs/hcm/winter08/issue-images/winter08_frontcover.jpg

Also, since HC reinstated scholarships in basketball only, not only did the action speak volumes, but it was stated explictly and publicly that basketball is our marquee sport. The forum was on the place for athletics not the place for football and football scholarships.

With regard to geography, when you are located in the center of New England surrounded by many schools and your closest league member is 160+ miles and 3+ hours away in West Point, that presents a geographical problem for travel, missed classes, etc.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Agree completely on the real geographic challenges, and what you said on the other board in regards to pumping up the Jesuit rivalry(ies) too.

I fixed the part about the coach taking his own life.

You wonder if - just maybe - the PL had put some effort in getting Bryant to join that maybe that could have helped. Yes, they're not the same type of school Holy Cross is at all, but at least it would seem like somewhat of a regional rival.

Odd, too, that Holy Cross, Brown and Dartmouth haven't emerged into bigger rivalries since all three are pretty close by. Maybe Harvard will emerge into one since both teams are now so much better.

[DFW HOYA]

I think the geographic constraints may be overstated. Georgetown's closest PL opponent is in what, Easton? And Eastern schools can't complain given the distances Pioneer schools commit to.

As to Jesuit connections, the three schools are in different Jesuit provinces (districts) and the ties that bid aren't there as some might think. Sports-wise, Georgetown hasn't played HC in basketball in 30 years, so that rivalry has long since passed.

[MplsBison]

Well, I've got a list of D-I requirements right here

This is what I was talking about:

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/stan/genrel/auto_pdf/2007-08_d1_manual.pdf

(page 324)





DIVISION I PHILOSOPHY STATEMENT

....

A member of Division I:

....


(b) Strives in its athletics program for regional and national excellence and prominence. Accordingly, its recruitment
of student-athletes and its emphasis on and support of its athletics program are, in most cases, regional
and national in scope;

....



So there you have it. Key phrase is "support of its athletics program are national in scope".


That means scholarships and no other possible meaning exists.

[MplsBison]

since HC reinstated scholarships in basketball only, not only did the action speak volumes, but it was stated explictly and publicly that basketball is our marquee sport.


And you can really tell it by the facility commitment that HC has made to bball:

http://graphics.fansonly.com/photos/schools/holy/sports/m-baskbl/auto_original/716879.jpeg

(capacity 3600)

That's barely a half step below NBA level facilities!

Or a half step above middle school gym.


One of those two.




Now, looking at the football stadium:


http://publish.netitor.com/photos/schools/holy/galleries/facilities/fittongameday-lg.jpg

(capacity 23,500)





You're right.


It's obvious that basketball is king at HC and football, with its puny facilities, is a mere afterthought.

[Franks Tanks]

This is what I was talking about:

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/stan/genrel/auto_pdf/2007-08_d1_manual.pdf

(page 324)





So there you have it. Key phrase is "support of its athletics program are national in scope".


That means scholarships and no other possible meaning exists.

How do you get "you must have scholarships" from that statement, that is really ridicilious. If you want to use the National Scope argument look at the roster of NDSU and compare it to pretty much any Ivy/Patriot team. Most of NDSU's team is from North Dakota or neighboring states--not very national is scope now it is. Patriot and especially Ivy rosters have kids from all over the country... that is a national presence.

[Franks Tanks]

And you can really tell it by the facility commitment that HC has made to bball:

http://graphics.fansonly.com/photos/schools/holy/sports/m-baskbl/auto_original/716879.jpeg

(capacity 3600)

That's barely a half step below NBA level facilities!

Or a half step above middle school gym.


One of those two.




Now, looking at the football stadium:


http://publish.netitor.com/photos/schools/holy/galleries/facilities/fittongameday-lg.jpg

(capacity 23,500)





You're right.


It's obvious that basketball is king at HC and football, with its puny facilities, is a mere afterthought.


Holy Cross has a bigger football stadium than NDSU--what the h*ll are you talking about?

[MplsBison]

I don't believe for a second that you actually think that I think that HC's high school basketball gym is a great facility and it's giant football stadium is a puny facility.

[DFW HOYA]

This is what I was talking about:
So there you have it. Key phrase is "support of its athletics program are national in scope". That means scholarships and no other possible meaning exists.

The original quote was "regional or national" , not solely national. Clearly there are schools that recruit on a regional basis that are successful, others national. No one is saying your school has to do one or the other, only that there are those that do.

And if you check the top 10 I-AA/CS schools in the NACDA (all-sports) competition (2006-07), there's a fair mix of both merit and need based scholarship programs.


53. Cornell
63. Princeton
64. Harvard
76. Georgetown
77. Pennsylvania
77. Southern Illinois
83. Columbia
84. Cal Poly
86. Northern Iowa
87. Hofstra

[MplsBison]

Either way you look at it, regional or national, DI schools offer scholarships to support their athletic departments, both in the NE region and nationally.


That's the DI philosophy.

[TheValleyRaider]

So there you have it. Key phrase is "support of its athletics program are national in scope".

Nice splicing xrolleyesx

It says "regional and national in scope," and our aid certainly is within regional, if not national reason



That means scholarships and no other possible meaning exists.

My goodness, you may actually have become a caricature of yourself xlolx

[Franks Tanks]

Either way you look at it, regional or national, DI schools offer scholarships to support their athletic departments, both in the NE region and nationally.


That's the DI philosophy.


The Patriot League does give scholarships in other sports

[MplsBison]

So then, and I'm sure you already agree, there is no possible argument against giving scholarships in football except that those in power don't like the game of football.

[Franks Tanks]

So then, and I'm sure you already agree, there is no possible argument against giving scholarships in football except that those in power don't like the game of football.

Some PL schools seem to oppose the idea for reasons not entirely clear--this has been discussed ad nasuem here.

[MplsBison]

It's obvious.


The think that people who play the game of football are stupid barbarians. Not fit for a gentleman's society.

[DUPFLFan]

there is no possible argument against giving scholarships in football except that those in power don't like the game of football.

How does Title IX fit in your world?

[MplsBison]

In my perfect world, football would be excluded from title IX laws as there is no other equivalent female sport to add.

The only thing you can do is drop other men's sports, which is not what T IX was designed to do.

[Franks Tanks]

It's obvious.


The think that people who play the game of football are stupid barbarians. Not fit for a gentleman's society.

The small minority of people who think like that are opposed to sports in general--FB would get the brunt of the criticism however.

[Go...gate]

In my perfect world, football would be excluded from title IX laws as there is no other equivalent female sport to add.

The only thing you can do is drop other men's sports, which is not what T IX was designed to do.

Not trying to be a spoilsport here, but let's keep this in the present world. Certainly, the HC discussion cannot be said to give a warm feeling about HC's possible adoption of FB scholarships. Assuming this is true, we have a hell of a split among members. What is the PL to do?

[USDFAN_55]

In my perfect world, football would be excluded from title IX laws as there is no other equivalent female sport to add.


WOW, I actually agree with you on this one.xrotatehx

[Go...gate]

DFW wrote --

Finally, the Holy Cross VP also said in the article that "geographically, the league is somewhat problematic for us." Any idea what he's talking about, or is HC beginning to lay the groundwork to start looking somewhere else?

***

In the PL, HC is the only New England team. Travel time, and missed class time, is an issue for some at HC. For sports other than football, the travel problem is compounded when you consider Navy and American, although Army is not a bad distance. An ideal situation for HC would be to add another New England team to the league, but no situation has developed that would permit that to happen as yet.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the problem that always seem to be raised when scholarships are discussed -- Title IX and the need to offer an equivalent number of scholarships for women's sports.

The Ivies have survived for years with Penn and Dartmouth at the fringes, and ECAC Hockey has thrived as well with similar travel challenges.

[Go...gate]

That seems to be the most interesting part of the quote. Without that, it's plain and simple that HC won't be pushing scholarships. But, put that in, and what if you can swing Bucknell and the affiliates to the idea? HC won't push, but can they be pushed? Or is it a chicken/egg argument, that is, HC will only go scholarships if the rest of the PL does, but the PL won't go scholarship without HC? xchinscratchx

Or am I simply reading too much into this? xconfusedx

I don't believe you are reading too much into it, at all.

[DRocksDad]

PL should go at least partial scholly. soemthing like the NEC. Screw HC. Let em leave if they dont like it.

[MplsBison]

Indeed.

Let them join the NESCAC if that is who they identify with in mission and philosophy.

[USDFAN_55]

PL should go at least partial scholly. soemthing like the NEC. Screw HC. Let em leave if they dont like it.

Aren't the academic merit grants that they do give enough? What does going partial scholly accomplish, besides possibly lowering the teams GPA? That really is the only difference I see with scholarships and merit grants. Merit grants are given to good STUDENT ATHLETES, while scholarships are genrally for the good athletes (some being good students as well). Have we lost touch with what college sports is all about? Most treat them as a minor league farm system for professional sports, when in actuality they are for the further development of the students.

[bison137]

Aren't the academic merit grants that they do give enough? What does going partial scholly accomplish, besides possibly lowering the teams GPA? That really is the only difference I see with scholarships and merit grants. Merit grants are given to good STUDENT ATHLETES, while scholarships are genrally for the good athletes (some being good students as well). Have we lost touch with what college sports is all about? Most treat them as a minor league farm system for professional sports, when in actuality they are for the further development of the students.


When PL schools went to athletic scholarships in basketball, the academic profile of the recruits went up and I imagine the overall GPA's went up also. The PL is not giving merit grants now - it is giving need-based grants.

[USDFAN_55]

When PL schools went to athletic scholarships in basketball, the academic profile of the recruits went up and I imagine the overall GPA's went up also. The PL is not giving merit grants now - it is giving need-based grants.

Ok, so then what's the need for scholarships? Money is being given to the players, it's just not called a scholarship. A grant is a form of a scholarship isn't it?

What do you mean by academic profile for the recruits? You mean high school GPA, SAT scores, and etc.?

[Go...gate]

Ok, so then what's the need for scholarships? Money is being given to the players, it's just not called a scholarship. A grant is a form of a scholarship isn't it?

What do you mean by academic profile for the recruits? You mean high school GPA, SAT scores, and etc.?

Yes, as well as graduation rates (except at American, which is still struggling with this issue).

[MplsBison]

Ok, so then what's the need for scholarships? Money is being given to the players, it's just not called a scholarship. A grant is a form of a scholarship isn't it?


An athletic scholarship is a grant given from the athletic department of the school to a player for no other reason than the player's athletic ability in his particular sport.

The fact that he also meets certain minimum academic standards is but an NCAA enforced formality.



They are being paid to play a sport.

That's the basic fact of the matter.

No other way to analyze it.





That's not what the Ivy League, Patriot League and Pioneer League do.


Those three won't give a player any money based on his athletic ability. They only give a player money if he also has the academic ability to be accepted to the school based on academic merit alone.

[TheValleyRaider]

That's not what the Ivy League, Patriot League and Pioneer League do.


Those three won't give a player any money based on his athletic ability. They only give a player money if he also has the academic ability to be accepted to the school based on academic merit alone.

Because that's really the point of college....right? xconfusedx xeyebrowx

[MplsBison]

Like I said: it's a difference in philosophy.


DIII philosophy: no scholarships because college is about learning stuff

DI philosophy: scholarships to the best players based on athletic merit because college athletics are a business and you succeed in business by providing your customers with the best product you can produce

[Model Citizen]

An athletic scholarship is a grant given from the athletic department of the school to a player for no other reason than the player's athletic ability in his particular sport.The fact that he also meets certain minimum academic standards is but an NCAA enforced formality.

They are being paid to play a sport.

That's the basic fact of the matter.

No other way to analyze it.

That's not what the Ivy League, Patriot League and Pioneer League do.


Those three won't give a player any money based on his athletic ability. They only give a player money if he also has the academic ability to be accepted to the school based on academic merit alone.

Am I going to agree with this poster for the first time in my life? xrotatehx

Not entirely. The Patriot League is different from the Ivy and PFL.

The Patriot League gives football players aid that WILL BE taken away if the player quits the team. That is indeed giving money based on athletic ability, which is why most Patriot programs are up around 50 equivalencies. Not the case with the Ivy and PFL, which offer zero equivalencies.

Carry on.

[DFW HOYA]

Those three won't give a player any money based on his athletic ability. They only give a player money if he also has the academic ability to be accepted to the school based on academic merit alone.

Not quite.

The Patriot League apportions aid because of need and athletic ability and does factor athletic status into the admissions decision.

The Ivy League does not apportion aid because of athletic ability and does not, officially anyway, factor athletic ability into the admissions decision.

The Pioneer League apportions aid solely by need and does not factor athletic ability into the admissions decision.

[MplsBison]

Yes and that is what differentiates the PL from the IL and PFL somewhat.

But a high school football player will not be offered money and automatic acceptance to a Patriot League school based solely on his football ability.


He has to demonstrate advanced academic ability to be considered.

[Franks Tanks]

Yes and that is what differentiates the PL from the IL and PFL somewhat.

But a high school football player will not be offered money and automatic acceptance to a Patriot League school based solely on his football ability.


He has to demonstrate advanced academic ability to be considered.

WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH THAT, THATS WHY IT IS COLLEGE. NOT EVERYONE GETS IN OR SHOULD GET IN.

[Model Citizen]

The Ivy League does not apportion aid because of athletic ability and does not, officially anyway, factor athletic ability into the admissions decision.

Wait a minute. What about the admissions slots? Do they not allow coaches to take people below the average AI of recent freshman classes? Low band recruits most definitely have athletic ability factored in. All very official, too.


The Pioneer League apportions aid solely by need and does not factor athletic ability into the admissions decision.

That's the theory, at least. I'm beginning to think that Kerwin Bell pulls some strings with admissions at Jacksonville.

[MplsBison]

WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH THAT, THATS WHY IT IS COLLEGE. NOT EVERYONE GETS IN OR SHOULD GET IN.

For the general student body, that's all fine and good.


If you're a gifted athlete and you can help a university make money via athletics, you should get special consideration despite of sub standard academics.

[Franks Tanks]

For the general student body, that's all fine and good.


If you're a gifted athlete and you can help a university make money via athletics, you should get special consideration despite of sub standard academics.

Please tell me which FCS teams actually make money on football??? I would venture to guess less than 10 actually do---so all the other FCS schools should just disband their teams because they arent making any money. You would disband a buisness losing money, and college athletics are just a business right.

[MplsBison]

I didn't mean make money in the sense of turning a profit.

I literally meant, make money. IE, take in more than zero dollars revenue.

[Go...gate]

I didn't mean make money in the sense of turning a profit.

I literally meant, make money. IE, take in more than zero dollars revenue.

Nearly all FCS and many FBS take in less revenue then they spend, so that would be less than zero dollars revenue. xconfusedx xconfusedx

[Franks Tanks]

I didn't mean make money in the sense of turning a profit.

I literally meant, make money. IE, take in more than zero dollars revenue.

That makes no sense. You could set-up a lemonade stand behind the bleachers and take in some revenue, so whats your magic revenue number that makes a legitimate FCS squad? You say that D-I is just a business, and any business that doesnt turn a profit long enough goes away.

[DRocksDad]

.......What does going partial scholly accomplish, besides possibly lowering the teams GPA? That really is the only difference I see with scholarships and merit grants. Merit grants are given to good STUDENT ATHLETES, while scholarships are genrally for the good athletes (some being good students as well).......

Lets assume a family of an athlete makes $100-$200K a year. They can afford the PL and likley wouldn't get much aid. But given a choice between a quality PL program and a public in-state school of similar quality (lets say W&M or UVA for example) wouldn't they choose the latter based on the $20-30K cost difference per year? Now throw even a partial scholly at the kid and you can cut the difference in cost in half or more.

I think athletes and families choosing the PL are doing so becuase of academic quality and not necessarily the league. I also think many great student-athletes dismiss the leagues from their college search right from the start because they are "non-scholarship". I think the PA PL schools could very quickly steal recruits from W&M, UVA, Richmond, Villanova and others.

[Franks Tanks]

Lets assume a family of an athlete makes $100-$200K a year. They can afford the PL and likley wouldn't get much aid. But given a choice between a quality PL program and a public in-state school of similar quality (lets say W&M or UVA for example) wouldn't they choose the latter based on the $20-30K cost difference per year? Now throw even a partial scholly at the kid and you can cut the difference in cost in half or more.

I think athletes and families choosing the PL are doing so becuase of academic quality and not necessarily the league. I also think many great student-athletes dismiss the leagues from their college search right from the start because they are "non-scholarship". I think the PA PL schools could very quickly steal recruits from W&M, UVA, Richmond, Villanova and others.

Exactly--the eternal paradox my friend!

[Go...gate]

Lets assume a family of an athlete makes $100-$200K a year. They can afford the PL and likley wouldn't get much aid. But given a choice between a quality PL program and a public in-state school of similar quality (lets say W&M or UVA for example) wouldn't they choose the latter based on the $20-30K cost difference per year? Now throw even a partial scholly at the kid and you can cut the difference in cost in half or more.

I think athletes and families choosing the PL are doing so becuase of academic quality and not necessarily the league. I also think many great student-athletes dismiss the leagues from their college search right from the start because they are "non-scholarship". I think the PA PL schools could very quickly steal recruits from W&M, UVA, Richmond, Villanova and others.

Agreed.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Wait a minute. What about the admissions slots? Do they not allow coaches to take people below the average AI of recent freshman classes? Low band recruits most definitely have athletic ability factored in. All very official, too.

Let's see the Division I school that only takes students that are equal to the AI of the rest of the freshmen class. You can't name them since they don't exist. Harvard, Yale, Georgetown, NDSU, Dayton.. doesn't exist.


That's the theory, at least. I'm beginning to think that Kerwin Bell pulls some strings with admissions at Jacksonville.

Your accusation cannot be substantiated, but this illustrates perfectly the riddle of the perceptions of teams with need-based aid. If they get a good class, they're "cheating since they're getting around restrictions". If they stink, then it's because they're "good programs since they're graduating future leaders". It's almost as if the coaching staff is punished for winning within the restrictions (since it's assumed they're cheating) and punished for losing (since everyone hates losing).

[DRocksDad]

I'm reading a book titled Playing the Game by Chris Lincoln. Its a look inside athletic recruiting in the Ivy League. My understanding is the standard is that the AI average of all sports combined cannot exceed 1 standard deviation from the remaining student body all years combined.

[ngineer]

Lets assume a family of an athlete makes $100-$200K a year. They can afford the PL and likley wouldn't get much aid. But given a choice between a quality PL program and a public in-state school of similar quality (lets say W&M or UVA for example) wouldn't they choose the latter based on the $20-30K cost difference per year? Now throw even a partial scholly at the kid and you can cut the difference in cost in half or more.

I think athletes and families choosing the PL are doing so becuase of academic quality and not necessarily the league. I also think many great student-athletes dismiss the leagues from their college search right from the start because they are "non-scholarship". I think the PA PL schools could very quickly steal recruits from W&M, UVA, Richmond, Villanova and others.

Agreed...I know a number of students who have played at Lehigh, Lafayette and Bucknell who chose those schools over some very good state schools, but because of receiving significant grants that narrowed the gap between the PL schools and the lower tuition state schools, they chose the PL.

[MplsBison]

Nearly all FCS and many FBS take in less revenue then they spend, so that would be less than zero dollars revenue. xconfusedx xconfusedx


Revenue is any money you take in.


Profit is costs subtracted from revenue.

[MplsBison]

so whats your magic revenue number that makes a legitimate FCS squad?


Legitimacy has nothing to do with the amount of revenue taken in.


Only with how many scholarships given.

[MplsBison]

Lets assume a family of an athlete makes $100-$200K a year. They can afford the PL and likley wouldn't get much aid. But given a choice between a quality PL program and a public in-state school of similar quality (lets say W&M or UVA for example) wouldn't they choose the latter based on the $20-30K cost difference per year? Now throw even a partial scholly at the kid and you can cut the difference in cost in half or more.

I think athletes and families choosing the PL are doing so becuase of academic quality and not necessarily the league. I also think many great student-athletes dismiss the leagues from their college search right from the start because they are "non-scholarship". I think the PA PL schools could very quickly steal recruits from W&M, UVA, Richmond, Villanova and others.


Great post!


You've shown why scholarships are the correct choice.

[DRocksDad]

Agreed...I know a number of students who have played at Lehigh, Lafayette and Bucknell who chose those schools over some very good state schools, but because of receiving significant grants that narrowed the gap between the PL schools and the lower tuition state schools, they chose the PL.

I agree completely. My 16 year old's short list of schools (with football) includes those 3 PA PL schools, THE 3 Ivys, UVA, Gtown and Richmond.

[TheValleyRaider]

Legitimacy has nothing to do with the amount of revenue taken in.


Only with how many scholarships given.

Ask full scholarship UMass (http://www.i-aa.org/article.asp?articleid=51106), Western Illinois (http://www.i-aa.org/article.asp?articleid=51377) and Florida Atlantic (http://www.i-aa.org/article.asp?articleid=51604) how "legitimate" Colgate's football team is xrolleyesx xoopsx

[Franks Tanks]

Revenue is any money you take in.


Profit is costs subtracted from revenue.


Yes but if you are in the red, you technically didnt generate any money

[Franks Tanks]

MPLS Bison if you went to NDSU you got shafted and you should get your money back as you seriously didnt learn one thing.

Please take this piece of advice. If you wish to argue that one of your statements or opinions are correct you must present facts and well reasoned points to support your case. Presently you make assertions and statement and do not back them up with anything valid. You make points that are senseless or trot out evidence that is at best very poor support of your point.

If you heed my advice maybe someone will actually take you seriously. Then you can actually quit that job at McDonalds and get a better one. This will allow you to finally move out of your parents basement, and maybe actually get laid for the first time ever. See how charitable I am, helping someone I dont even know better their life.

[Ken_Z]

MPLS Bison if you went to NDSU you got shafted and you should get your money back as you seriously didnt learn one thing.


MB must have been one of those football players who NDSU let in to help the school "make money" rather than to receive an education.

[MplsBison]

Yes but if you are in the red, you technically didnt generate any money


Irrelevant as I am talking strictly about revenue and you're just trying to cover up your mistake.

[MplsBison]

If you heed my advice maybe someone will actually take you seriously. Then you can actually quit that job at McDonalds and get a better one. This will allow you to finally move out of your parents basement, and maybe actually get laid for the first time ever. See how charitable I am, helping someone I dont even know better their life.

I can see you got your second degree from the AGS school of message board posting.


Rule I: when you've lost the argument, the best thing to do is revert to ad homs.

[Franks Tanks]

Irrelevant as I am talking strictly about revenue and you're just trying to cover up your mistake.

Revenue is essentially useless if your expenses greatly outpace it. Lets put it this way. If its a slow day and you made 100 Hamburgers and only sold 10, thus having to throw away the other 90. You may have taken in some revenue on those 10 sold burgers, but by throwing away the other 90 you are in the red overall. You put out a large investment, 100 burgers, for little return on the 10 sold. Is that easier to understand in your tearms

[Franks Tanks]

I can see you got your second degree from the AGS school of message board posting.


Rule I: when you've lost the argument, the best thing to do is revert to ad homs.

You argue like a child. If you were to discuss rationally like an educated adult I would continue to listen to your points, but I dont really have time for your junk.

[DRocksDad]

I am loving the banter. The PL (Bucknell, Lehigh and Lafayette) are now another rung higher on MY shortlist for my son. But I have to admit, they still are a fallback if he doent make it into Harvard, Princeton or Yale.

So come on guys, sell me on the your respective 3 PL schools and/or football programs cause I likely will share it all wtih him before he comes to some of the summer camps and campus visits next year. You may want to start another thread though.

[Go...gate]

Ask full scholarship UMass (http://www.i-aa.org/article.asp?articleid=51106), Western Illinois (http://www.i-aa.org/article.asp?articleid=51377) and Florida Atlantic (http://www.i-aa.org/article.asp?articleid=51604) how "legitimate" Colgate's football team is xrolleyesx xoopsx


You might also want to add Maine, Towson, Army, Rutgers, and a host of others over many years.

[Go...gate]

I can see you got your second degree from the AGS school of message board posting.


Rule I: when you've lost the argument, the best thing to do is revert to ad homs.


No ad hominems here. I am struggling to find the foundation of your argument, but your explanations are a bit wanting.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

You might also want to add Maine, Towson, Army, Rutgers, and a host of others over many years.

And you can add Richmond, Delaware, Villanova on the Lehigh side... and of course we both can add FBS Buffalo too xnodx

[MplsBison]

I've never said that the PL teams (or IL and PFL for that matter) don't have and can't get good players.



I simply advocate that the philosophy of DI football should be that money and admission are offered up front to a potential player based on his football ability.

If he's good in the classroom, that's icing.



The idea that a player should have to prove an advanced academic ability before he will be considered athletically should not be the philosophy of DI football.

[Franks Tanks]

I've never said that the PL teams (or IL and PFL for that matter) don't have and can't get good players.



I simply advocate that the philosophy of DI football should be that money and admission are offered up front to a potential player based on his football ability.

If he's good in the classroom, that's icing.



The idea that a player should have to prove an advanced academic ability before he will be considered athletically should not be the philosophy of DI football.

Notre Dame has relatively stringent admission standards for athletes so I guess they should move to Division III as well.

[andy7171]

I am loving the banter. The PL (Bucknell, Lehigh and Lafayette) are now another rung higher on MY shortlist for my son. But I have to admit, they still are a fallback if he doent make it into Harvard, Princeton or Yale.

So come on guys, sell me on the your respective 3 PL schools and/or football programs cause I likely will share it all wtih him before he comes to some of the summer camps and campus visits next year. You may want to start another thread though.
I was really heavily recruited by Bucknell, I really wanted to go there. But I was a lazy idiot in high school and the coach couldn't get me in. I would say today Bucknell is at the bottom of those PA three competitive wise. All three are in the middle of nowhere PA. Lafayette has an incredible brand new facility and stadium complex. Any of them would be quality school to play for. Good luck!
Oh! Don't leave out Towson, just because it's public! xthumbsupx


You might also want to add Maine, Towson, Army, Rutgers, and a host of others over many years.

Witness xbawlingx

[USDFAN_55]

I've never said that the PL teams (or IL and PFL for that matter) don't have and can't get good players.



I simply advocate that the philosophy of DI football should be that money and admission are offered up front to a potential player based on his football ability.

If he's good in the classroom, that's icing.



The idea that a player should have to prove an advanced academic ability before he will be considered athletically should not be the philosophy of DI football.

That may just be the craziest thing you've posted!xlolx These are academic institutions, are they not? With your logic, maybe they should do away with the NCAA Clearinghouse? Who cares if these players are academically eligible? If a player can't make it academically at the tougher academic school, there is always public educationxthumbsupx

[Go...gate]

I've never said that the PL teams (or IL and PFL for that matter) don't have and can't get good players.



I simply advocate that the philosophy of DI football should be that money and admission are offered up front to a potential player based on his football ability.

If he's good in the classroom, that's icing.



The idea that a player should have to prove an advanced academic ability before he will be considered athletically should not be the philosophy of DI football.

So what you are saying is that athletic ability should be considered in lieu of academic ability as the basis for financial aid?

[andy7171]

So what you are saying is that athletic ability should be considered in lieu of academic ability as the basis for financial aid?

He has argued that NCAA standards be applied for athletes. A 2.0 and 700SAT? That wouldn't even fly at Towson!

[Franks Tanks]

I was really heavily recruited by Bucknell, I really wanted to go there. But I was a lazy idiot in high school and the coach couldn't get me in. I would say today Bucknell is at the bottom of those PA three competitive wise. All three are in the middle of nowhere PA. Lafayette has an incredible brand new facility and stadium complex. Any of them would be quality school to play for. Good luck!
Oh! Don't leave out Towson, just because it's public! xthumbsupx



Witness xbawlingx

Hey -- the Lehigh Valley is the 62nd largest metro area in the US just below places like Omaha and above El Paso, Knoxville etc. We are only about 45 minutes from Philly and 1 1/2 from NYC. So it is certainly not a metropolis but also not middle of no-where. Bucknell is however.

[TheValleyRaider]

And you can add Richmond, Delaware, Villanova on the Lehigh side... and of course we both can add FBS Buffalo too xnodx

Hey, I'm trying to make us look good here :p

[andy7171]

Hey -- the Lehigh Valley is the 62nd largest metro area in the US just below places like Omaha and above El Paso, Knoxville etc. We are only about 45 minutes from Philly and 1 1/2 from NYC. So it is certainly not a metropolis but also not middle of no-where. Bucknell is however.

Bethlehem is podunk as they get! xsmiley_wix xpeacex

An hour and a half to NYC, my arse! xrolleyesx

[USDFAN_55]

He has argued that NCAA standards be applied for athletes. A 2.0 and 700SAT? That wouldn't even fly at Towson!

Actually D-I has a sliding scale dependant on your GPA.

NCAA DIVISION I SLIDING SCALE
CORE GRADE-POINT AVERAGE/
TEST-SCORE
New Core GPA / Test Score Index
Core GPA SAT ACT
Verbal and Math ONLY
3.550 & above 400 37
3.525 410 38
3.500 420 39
3.475 430 40
3.450 440 41
3.425 450 41
3.400 460 42
3.375 470 42
3.350 480 43
3.325 490 44
3.300 500 44
3.275 510 45
3.250 520 46
3.225 530 46
3.200 540 47
3.175 550 47
3.150 560 48
3.125 570 49
3.100 580 49
3.075 590 50
3.050 600 50
3.025 610 51
3.000 620 52
2.975 630 52
2.950 640 53
2.925 650 53
2.900 660 54
2.875 670 55
2.850 680 56
2.825 690 56
2.800 700 57
2.775 710 58
2.750 720 59
2.725 730 59
2.700 730 60
2.675 740-750 61
2.650 760 62
2.625 770 63
2.600 780 64
2.575 790 65
2.550 800 66
2.525 810 67
2.500 820 68
2.475 830 69
2.450 840-850 70
2.425 860 70
2.400 860 71
2.375 870 72
2.350 880 73
2.325 890 74
2.300 900 75
2.275 910 76
2.250 920 77
2.225 930 78
2.200 940 79
2.175 950 80
2.150 960 80
2.125 960 81
2.100 970 82
2.075 980 83
2.050 990 84
2.025 1000 85
2.000 1010 86

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Bethlehem is podunk as they get! xsmiley_wix xpeacex

An hour and a half to NYC, my arse! xrolleyesx

It is possible... if you don't stop at any traffic lights and ignore all mileage limits.

I'd give you negative rep points, but your new Av pic is so great... I just can't bring myself to do it. xeekx

[DRocksDad]

....The idea that a player should have to prove an advanced academic ability before he will be considered athletically should not be the philosophy of DI football.

What the heck are you talking about? Its what sets the IVY and PL apart from the rest of DI. These schools should be commended for setting a higher standard not ridiculed. And when they beat teams out of conference they truely have overcome a huge barrier. These teams are playing with one armed tied behind their back becuase they put academics over athletics unlike the rest of the FCS.

I consider the CAA the top IAA (scholarship) conference with a huge gap between them and any other conference. Add schollys to these two leagues and within a few years they will be beating the CAA regularly. Why? Becuase everything else being equal (i.e. skill level) intelligence makes the difference. Having every position on the field as smart as the top kid (academically) on a squad in a non-AI measured conference makes all the difference.

[MplsBison]

These teams are playing with one armed tied behind their back becuase they put academics over athletics unlike the rest of the FCS.


There is nothing morally or ethically wrong with this, of course.


It's simply, as I have been saying forever now, a difference in philosophy.




And that philosophy which the PL, IL and PFL share, which again there's nothing wrong with it in of itself, should not be the philosophy of DI FCS football, IMO.

[Franks Tanks]

Actually D-I has a sliding scale dependant on your GPA.

NCAA DIVISION I SLIDING SCALE
CORE GRADE-POINT AVERAGE/
TEST-SCORE
New Core GPA / Test Score Index
Core GPA SAT ACT
Verbal and Math ONLY
3.550 & above 400 37
3.525 410 38
3.500 420 39
3.475 430 40
3.450 440 41
3.425 450 41
3.400 460 42
3.375 470 42
3.350 480 43
3.325 490 44
3.300 500 44
3.275 510 45
3.250 520 46
3.225 530 46
3.200 540 47
3.175 550 47
3.150 560 48
3.125 570 49
3.100 580 49
3.075 590 50
3.050 600 50
3.025 610 51
3.000 620 52
2.975 630 52
2.950 640 53
2.925 650 53
2.900 660 54
2.875 670 55
2.850 680 56
2.825 690 56
2.800 700 57
2.775 710 58
2.750 720 59
2.725 730 59
2.700 730 60
2.675 740-750 61
2.650 760 62
2.625 770 63
2.600 780 64
2.575 790 65
2.550 800 66
2.525 810 67
2.500 820 68
2.475 830 69
2.450 840-850 70
2.425 860 70
2.400 860 71
2.375 870 72
2.350 880 73
2.325 890 74
2.300 900 75
2.275 910 76
2.250 920 77
2.225 930 78
2.200 940 79
2.175 950 80
2.150 960 80
2.125 960 81
2.100 970 82
2.075 980 83
2.050 990 84
2.025 1000 85
2.000 1010 86


Is it even possible to get 400 on the SAT?. The lowest scores I have ever witnessed were in the high 600's

[DRocksDad]

I was really heavily recruited by Bucknell, I really wanted to go there. But I was a lazy idiot in high school and the coach couldn't get me in. I would say today Bucknell is at the bottom of those PA three competitive wise. All three are in the middle of nowhere PA. Lafayette has an incredible brand new facility and stadium complex. Any of them would be quality school to play for. Good luck!
Oh! Don't leave out Towson, just because it's public! xthumbsupx



Witness xbawlingx

Im orignally from Wilkes-Barre area in NEPA. I know exactly where each is and i think they all are awesome location wise but thats just my opinion.

[DRocksDad]

He has argued that NCAA standards be applied for athletes. A 2.0 and 700SAT? That wouldn't even fly at Towson!

Good for you if that avitar is your hottie girlfriend. she is smoking. Must have went PL too.

[DRocksDad]

Actually D-I has a sliding scale dependant on your GPA.

Let's confess. So does the Ivy and PL when it comes to AI. While recruiting my middle son, who unfortunately would not hang in the PL academically, I learned that "banding" or AI tiers helps and was actually told by Bucknell, Lehigh and COlumbia believe it or not that 500s across the board is doable for a high skilled athlete. They likely only get to have one or two though in that band.

[Franks Tanks]

Let's confess. So does the Ivy and PL when it comes to AI. While recruiting my middle son, who unfortunately would not hang in the PL academically, I learned that "banding" or AI tiers helps and was actually told by Bucknell, Lehigh and COlumbia believe it or not that 500s across the board is doable for a high skilled athlete. They likely only get to have one or two though in that band.

Thats is very plauible and in line with what we understand here. It is certainly not impossible, but there are very few slots in that Band level so you must be one of the top few recruits to be slotted for admission. Natually the better admission stats the better chance of getting in, even if you are below the average admit.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Let's confess. So does the Ivy and PL when it comes to AI. While recruiting my middle son, who unfortunately would not hang in the PL academically, I learned that "banding" or AI tiers helps and was actually told by Bucknell, Lehigh and COlumbia believe it or not that 500s across the board is doable for a high skilled athlete. They likely only get to have one or two though in that band.

"Banding" is a part of the Ivy League system of doing the AI, so that would be Columbia. The PL currently does not, though that may change next year for football.

Without going into too much detail, the Ivy League has an AI "floor" below which no school can recruit. Above that, any school can get 2 athletes from the "floor" to the lower edge of the band. For football, only two players can be from the "lowest" band per year.

The PL just says that the AI has to be one standard deviation against the 4-year average of the entire freshman incoming class. (Which is, incidentally, the way the Ivies used to do it until the late 1990s.)

The Ivy system is actually more flexible for the higher-academic schools. To me, the PL AI system is a major reason why Georgetown has struggled so mightily. Furthermore, the change to "bands" (not coincidentally, IMO) has corresponded to H-Y-P having teams that are consistently competing for football championships every year. It's a complex relationship, though.

[Franks Tanks]

"Banding" is a part of the Ivy League system of doing the AI, so that would be Columbia. The PL currently does not, though that may change next year for football.

Without going into too much detail, the Ivy League has an AI "floor" below which no school can recruit. Above that, any school can get 2 athletes from the "floor" to the lower edge of the band. For football, only two players can be from the "lowest" band per year.

The PL just says that the AI has to be one standard deviation against the 4-year average of the entire freshman incoming class. (Which is, incidentally, the way the Ivies used to do it until the late 1990s.)

The Ivy system is actually more flexible for the higher-academic schools. To me, the PL AI system is a major reason why Georgetown has struggled so mightily. Furthermore, the change to "bands" (not coincidentally, IMO) has corresponded to H-Y-P having teams that are consistently competing for football championships every year. It's a complex relationship, though.

I think some PL schools use an "informal" banding system if you will. The admission office may say --"Oh ok you can let those kids in, but only those 3." Of course there are always rumors abound that certain schools dip below the floor on ocassion and I think that may happen.

[USDFAN_55]

Is it even possible to get 400 on the SAT?. The lowest scores I have ever witnessed were in the high 600's

Isn't it a common myth that you get 400 for getting your name right?

[Franks Tanks]

Isn't it a common myth that you get 400 for getting your name right?

Yes, thats how it goes

[DRocksDad]

Of the 3 PA PL teams I mentioned, which is the better program for an upcoming ('10 grad) who is a WR/DB? i.e who passes more? or has an upcoming quality QB. I dont really care about wins and losses. As a parent care more about the education but its a nice bonus if the kid gets to play football while he is at it. The 3 are equal education wise IMO.

[Franks Tanks]

Of the 3 PA PL teams I mentioned, which is the better program for an upcoming ('10 grad) who is a WR/DB? i.e who passes more? or has an upcoming quality QB. I dont really care about wins and losses. As a parent care more about the education but its a nice bonus if the kid gets to play football while he is at it. The 3 are equal education wise IMO.

Bucknell runs the triple option flexbone stuff, so I doubt you would want to play WR for the Bison until Landis is gone. Lehigh and Lafayette both run pretty traditional pro style offenses. Lehigh is traditionally more pass happy but Coen has expressed an emphasis on running the ball. Lafayette has historically been more of a smash mouth team, but recently hired a spead guy to be the new QB coach so I expect his influence to be felt somewhat. D is all pretty much the same, I believe all run a 4-3.

[Go...gate]

Of the 3 PA PL teams I mentioned, which is the better program for an upcoming ('10 grad) who is a WR/DB? i.e who passes more? or has an upcoming quality QB. I dont really care about wins and losses. As a parent care more about the education but its a nice bonus if the kid gets to play football while he is at it. The 3 are equal education wise IMO.

I know a nice little school in upstate NY that plays a little FCS football too. xwhistlex

[Franks Tanks]

I know a nice little school in upstate NY that plays a little FCS football too. xwhistlex

Yes but think of how cold it gets in the winter :o

[DRocksDad]

I know a nice little school in upstate NY that plays a little FCS football too. xwhistlex

yeah but i intend to semi-retire and move back to NEPA the second the last rugrat is out the door so the commute to games is a key factor (for me anyway)

[Fordham]

Im orignally from Wilkes-Barre area in NEPA. I know exactly where each is and i think they all are awesome location wise but thats just my opinion.

Good stuff - what high school in WB? Meyers grad here.

Oh, and get Fordham on that list. In an amazing coincidence, if you start out around 4pm on a weekday from our beautiful Bronx campus ... it too is about a 1 1/2 hour drive from downtown NYC. xsmiley_wix

[Go...gate]

Yes but think of how cold it gets in the winter :o

Yeah, but winter is only ONE season!






Nobody needs to know it lasts about 10 months

[DRocksDad]

Good stuff - what high school in WB? Meyers grad here.

Oh, and get Fordham on that list. In an amazing coincidence, if you start out around 4pm on a weekday from our beautiful Bronx campus ... it too is about a 1 1/2 hour drive from downtown NYC. xsmiley_wix

Me personally WVW and then WSTech '83. I'm also a Penn State grad '94 (I did a stint in the ARmy in between HS and college) I've lived away for almost 25 years now though. My kids dont think of PA as home.

Why does everyone compare distance to NYC? How often do students actually go there? If that was a big deal I would push him on Columbia which is on his list albeit not that high.....yet.

[Go...gate]

Good stuff - what high school in WB? Meyers grad here.

Oh, and get Fordham on that list. In an amazing coincidence, if you start out around 4pm on a weekday from our beautiful Bronx campus ... it too is about a 1 1/2 hour drive from downtown NYC. xsmiley_wix

xlolx

[Fordham]

Me personally WVW and then WSTech '83. I'm also a Penn State grad '94 (I did a stint in the ARmy in between HS and college) I've lived away for almost 25 years now though. My kids dont think of PA as home.

Why does everyone compare distance to NYC? How often do students actually go there? If that was a big deal I would push him on Columbia which is on his list albeit not that high.....yet.

Nice - a Jim Fennel coached guy, huh? A bunch of WVW guys played at Fordham with me and I think I know a few WVW 'old timers' from way back when you played (just a few years before me). The weird part of the Fennel story is that years ago I found my mother's Kingston High School (now part of WVW) yearbook and who was the coach? Yep, Jim Fennell. Seemed to have coached there longer than Paterno.

[Franks Tanks]

Nice - a Jim Fennel coached guy, huh? A bunch of WVW guys played at Fordham with me and I think I know a few WVW 'old timers' from way back when you played (just a few years before me). The weird part of the Fennel story is that years ago I found my mother's Kingston High School (now part of WVW) yearbook and who was the coach? Yep, Jim Fennell. Seemed to have coached there longer than Paterno.

Did you play with "the Rocket" at Myers?

[TheValleyRaider]

Isn't it a common myth that you get 400 for getting your name right?


Yes, thats how it goes

The SAT scoring system starts at 200 for each section (Math and Verbal). Presumably it's the same for the new Writing section, but I'm old enough to have taken it with only 2 sections. Technically, if you answered every question wrong, you could get a 200. You might have to actually try and do that poorly, but you never know. The score has to be based on a scale in part because you don't have to answer every question. I'm not 100% on the details, but basically the sliding scale works better than a percentage, otherwise, you'd probably be able to get an 800 by only answering the questions you were completely sure about


Yes but think of how cold it gets in the winter :o

Yes, but think of how much nicer it can make 40 feel

Everything's tropical after you've been below 0 xlolx :D

[crusader11]

Forget those 3 schools in PA. Come up to Worcester where we pass the ball 40+ times a game.

[CrusaderBob]

Let me help you out with that font problem there Go...gate!


Yeah, but winter is only ONE season!






Nobody needs to know it lasts about 10 months

Winter is only about 4.5 - 5 months long in Worcester. And we actually throw the ball!

[DRocksDad]

Nice - a Jim Fennel coached guy, huh? A bunch of WVW guys played at Fordham with me and I think I know a few WVW 'old timers' from way back when you played (just a few years before me). The weird part of the Fennel story is that years ago I found my mother's Kingston High School (now part of WVW) yearbook and who was the coach? Yep, Jim Fennell. Seemed to have coached there longer than Paterno.

I didnt play. In fact, I went to WVW the year it opened then transferred to Tech my last two years where they canceled football in my senior year due to lack of participation. I live vicariously through my kids. My older brother played for the Wyoming Valley Giants (and old semi-pro team) He played with Joe Pesarchik (sp?) from the Eagles who at one time supposedly was my bro's back-up. I also went to O'Reilly for middle school and was classmates with Dave Popson who i think played bball at UNC or another decent program.

I believe the Rocket and his brother graduated right around me maybe 82.

[Go...gate]

Let me help you out with that font problem there Go...gate!



Winter is only about 4.5 - 5 months long in Worcester. And we actually throw the ball!

xlolx xlolx xlolx :)

[Go...gate]

Forget those 3 schools in PA. Come up to Worcester where we pass the ball 40+ times a game.

Crusader 11, tell your prexy and Richie Regan to give some football scholarships, for the love of God! HC has to stay in the Patriot League. Hell, Colgate's been playing you guys since Roosevelt was in the White House! You don't want to be in the damned NESCAC, do you?

[DFW HOYA]

Crusader 11, tell your prexy and Richie Regan to give some football scholarships, for the love of God! HC has to stay in the Patriot League. Hell, Colgate's been playing you guys since Roosevelt was in the White House! You don't want to be in the damned NESCAC, do you?

What was the last Division I team to drop to III, Birmingham Southern? Catholic dropped out in the 1980's, but there haven't been many others.

[Go...gate]

What was the last Division I team to drop to III, Birmingham Southern? Catholic dropped out in the 1980's, but there haven't been many others.

I believe it was Birmingham Southern. xnodx

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Yes, but think of how much nicer it can make 40 feel

Everything's tropical after you've been below 0 xlolx :D

Ain't that the truth!! I remember going to Florida on a semester break in late January of 1970 or 1971. We're out on Clearwater Beach in bathing suits with the temps in the low 60's. People thought we were nutz. Of course we had just spend 3-4 days in Durham where the daytime high never topped 0 and the lows were about -25. Both accompanied by a nice brisk north wind of course for some lovely wind chill factors. 60 degrees felt like 85!!!!!! xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx

[TheValleyRaider]

Ain't that the truth!! I remember going to Florida on a semester break in late January of 1970 or 1971. We're out on Clearwater Beach in bathing suits with the temps in the low 60's. People thought we were nutz. Of course we had just spend 3-4 days in Durham where the daytime high never topped 0 and the lows were about -25. Both accompanied by a nice brisk north wind of course for some lovely wind chill factors. 60 degrees felt like 85!!!!!! xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx

I hadn't even gotten to the wind xlolx

There's usually at least one week during the year at Colgate where it's below zero every day. One year, the next week was in the high 30s-low 40s, so everyone on campus broke out the shorts and sandals. The bundled-up tour groups of prospective students and their parents had the funniest looks on their faces xlolx

[crusader11]

Crusader 11, tell your prexy and Richie Regan to give some football scholarships, for the love of God! HC has to stay in the Patriot League. Hell, Colgate's been playing you guys since Roosevelt was in the White House! You don't want to be in the damned NESCAC, do you?

If it was up to me we would give scholarships in football, and move to the CAA for football and A10 for basketball. The move will never happen, or at least not in the near future, but I think scholarships are inevitable. Once the NEC schools begin to pass by the PL, HC will be forced to go scholarships, or at least I hope.

[andy7171]

Good stuff - what high school in WB? Meyers grad here.

Oh, and get Fordham on that list. In an amazing coincidence, if you start out around 4pm on a weekday from our beautiful Bronx campus ... it too is about a 1 1/2 hour drive from downtown NYC. xsmiley_wix
xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx
1 1/2 HOURS MY ARSE!!!

[Lehigh Football Nation]

You can go to Colgate and freeze your n*ts off, you can go to Bucknell and spend lots of "quality time" with cows, or you can go to the Cross and hear the fans talk about how they used to play BC.

Or you can play in... The Rivalry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehigh-Lafayette_football_games_(The_Rivalry)).

Ain't no rivalry better in college football. And when your son comes to Lehigh and delivers us some wins over "that school in Easton" and some Patriot League championships, you have the opportunity to become... legendary.

Plus, there's this guy who writes a blog, (http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com) too.

[DRocksDad]

You can go to Colgate and freeze your n*ts off, you can go to Bucknell and spend lots of "quality time" with cows, or you can go to the Cross and hear the fans talk about how they used to play BC.

Or you can play in... The Rivalry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehigh-Lafayette_football_games_(The_Rivalry)).

Ain't no rivalry better in college football. And when your son comes to Lehigh and delivers us some wins over "that school in Easton" and some Patriot League championships, you have the opportunity to become... legendary.

Plus, there's this guy who writes a blog, (http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com) too.

Not knocking the schools but I would have to disagree on the top rivalry and suggest that it would be whatever the oldest rivalry is which is likely an IVY and/or VA school.

[Franks Tanks]

Not knocking the schools but I would have to disagree on the top rivalry and suggest that it would be whatever the oldest rivalry is which is likely an IVY and/or VA school.

It is THE most played Rivalry is college football and the longest uninterupted match-up. Lafayette and Lehigh have met more times on the college gridiron than any other. Some schools is New England Harard and Yale or something like that are the oldest

[DFW HOYA]

But back to scholarships...

It's numbers like these that underscore the narrowing pool of Patriot-eligible (much less Patriot-interested) available recruits, as measured by high school applicants to Georgetown in 2008:

“Class rank has risen to about 97.1 percent, while the SAT percentage rate has risen to the 96.6 national percentile,” Deacon said. “SAT scores are up from last year to about a 1421 average, about an eight point increase.”

http://www.thehoya.com/node/15924

[DRocksDad]

But back to scholarships...

It's numbers like these that underscore the narrowing pool of Patriot-eligible (much less Patriot-interested) available recruits, as measured by high school applicants to Georgetown in 2008:

“Class rank has risen to about 97.1 percent, while the SAT percentage rate has risen to the 96.6 national percentile,” Deacon said. “SAT scores are up from last year to about a 1421 average, about an eight point increase.”



http://www.thehoya.com/node/15924


are you sure these are based on applicants or accepted applicants?

[DFW HOYA]

are you sure these are based on applicants or accepted applicants?

Per the article, it is applicants.