Any other Griz fans worried about this

[Grizzaholic]

First off, I am sorry to all of those that do not want to read about Griz related topics but to the others and Griz fans alike this seems to me to be very disturbing. I have never really gone one way or the other about Hauck's coaching style but this puts me in the dislike catagory.

http://missoulian.com/articles/2008/04/09/sports/sports03.txt

“Not unless we have a change of personality, which I don't think we're going to do,” Hauck said. “Sometimes change is born out of necessity. But in the last five years we've won more games than anybody in I-AA football. If something's not broken there's no need to fix it.”

[nwFL Griz]

First off, I am sorry to all of those that do not want to read about Griz related topics but to the others and Griz fans alike this seems to me to be very disturbing. I have never really gone one way or the other about Hauck's coaching style but this puts me in the dislike catagory.

http://missoulian.com/articles/2008/04/09/sports/sports03.txt

“Not unless we have a change of personality, which I don't think we're going to do,” Hauck said. “Sometimes change is born out of necessity. But in the last five years we've won more games than anybody in I-AA football. If something's not broken there's no need to fix it.”

I'll agree with you....I'm leaning toward dislike. His statement about winning more games in 1-AA may be true, but he obviously isn't focusing enough on playoffs vs. regular season games.

[AshevilleApp2]

First off, I am sorry to all of those that do not want to read about Griz related topics but to the others and Griz fans alike this seems to me to be very disturbing. I have never really gone one way or the other about Hauck's coaching style but this puts me in the dislike catagory.

http://missoulian.com/articles/2008/04/09/sports/sports03.txt

“Not unless we have a change of personality, which I don't think we're going to do,” Hauck said. “Sometimes change is born out of necessity. But in the last five years we've won more games than anybody in I-AA football. If something's not broken there's no need to fix it.”

No need to apologize for Griz related topics. One reason we're on this site is to learn more about other teams. What kind of non-conference schedule have you played in the last five years?

[montanafan]

First off, I am sorry to all of those that do not want to read about Griz related topics but to the others and Griz fans alike this seems to me to be very disturbing. I have never really gone one way or the other about Hauck's coaching style but this puts me in the dislike catagory.

http://missoulian.com/articles/2008/04/09/sports/sports03.txt

“Not unless we have a change of personality, which I don't think we're going to do,” Hauck said. “Sometimes change is born out of necessity. But in the last five years we've won more games than anybody in I-AA football. If something's not broken there's no need to fix it.”


I am sure you guys will agree that part of the problem is not Bobby specifically but the play calling of our Offensive Coordinater. He gets to complacent in his calls and then the next thing you know we play a good team and forget how to win (aka Wofford). Is it so hard to learn 2 maybe 3 new plays a week? by the end of the year we have 20-30 new plays at our disposal. Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

[montanafan]

No need to apologize for Griz related topics. One reason we're on this site is to learn more about other teams. What kind of non-conference schedule have you played in the last five years?

Cupcake, except one FBS game against Iowa in 2006. All the rest of the OOC games were wins before we took the field.

[Appaholic]

No need to apologize for Griz related topics. One reason we're on this site is to learn more about other teams. What kind of non-conference schedule have you played in the last five years?

You are correct AA2, I've learned alot about the Griz since I joined this site. Here is a listing of some of the Griz non-conference opponents....

[Grizzaholic]

You are correct AA2, I've learned alot about the Griz since I joined this site. Here is a listing of some of the Griz non-conference opponents....

I am sure Ronbo will be on soon and list every game we ever played so I will just think about.....



mmmmmmmmm cupcakes

[AshevilleApp2]

Cupcake, except one FBS game against Iowa in 2006. All the rest of the OOC games were wins before we took the field.

It might help to schedule some teams from the Gateway, CAA or SoCon to better prepare for the playoffs. Nothing against the Big Sky, but it would give the team a feel for how others play.

And I'm sure a lot of people would love to have an excuse to travel to Montana anyway.

[nwFL Griz]

You are correct AA2, I've learned alot about the Griz since I joined this site. Here is a listing of some of the Griz non-conference opponents....

Would you App guys please let it go....cough, cough...Lenoir-Ryhne. Everyone plays cupcakes. Besides, I think the point has been made clear in this thread that winning all those games is not important to most Griz fans if it is followed by losing playoff games that should be wins.

[AshevilleApp2]

Would you App guys please let it go....cough, cough...Lenoir-Ryhne. Everyone plays cupcakes. Besides, I think the point has been made clear in this thread that winning all those games is not important to most Griz fans if it is followed by losing playoff games that should be wins.

Actually I was asking the question out of ignorance. And yeah, Lenoir-Rhyne was cupcake. Not to mention Gardener Webb and Mars Hill. Everybody needs to pad the schedule somewhat.

[Grizzaholic]

Would you App guys please let it go....cough, cough...Lenoir-Ryhne. Everyone plays cupcakes. Besides, I think the point has been made clear in this thread that winning all those games is not important to most Griz fans if it is followed by losing playoff games that should be wins.

Reading minds again??? You know that is illegal, except when it comes to our OC, then everybody in the stands, watching at home, the other team, everybody can read his mind.

Play one: Run up the middle
I could really use a cup of gatorade

Play two: long pass out of bounds
This is some amazing gatorade

Penality for not getting the play in

Play three: run up the middle on 3rd and long
mmmmmm cupcakes, I need to get me on of them

Play four: we will punt here so I can get a cupcake.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Actually I was asking the question out of ignorance. And yeah, Lenoir-Rhyne was cupcake. Not to mention Gardener Webb and Mars Hill. Everybody needs to pad the schedule somewhat.

I'm pretty sure that was directed at appaholic and not you. Appaholic is a very bright and funny guy but for some reason he gets kinda stuck in a rut and keeps recycling the ol' cupcake thing for some reason even though a majority of Griz fans have said frequently that we have had some problems to work through lately and would very much like to be able to play some of the other top tier teams buy due to mismanagement of finances needed the home games and had to lower the quality and buy out of some games to meet this need. He is successful in his endeavors though because he gets me to recite my same old line in defense of what has gone on the last few years. You were only guilty of asking the question that gives him the chance to throw in the oft overused "Cupcake" analogy. Grizzaholic pointed this out already.

[AshevilleApp2]

I'm pretty sure that was directed at appaholic and not you. Appaholic is a very bright and funny guy but for some reason he gets kinda stuck in a rut and keeps recycling the ol' cupcake thing for some reason even though a majority of Griz fans have said frequently that we have had some problems to work through lately and would very much like to be able to play some of the other top tier teams buy due to mismanagement of finances needed the home games and had to lower the quality and buy out of some games to meet this need. He is successful in his endeavors though because he gets me to recite my same old line in defense of what has gone on the last few years. You were only guilty of asking the question that gives him the chance to throw in the oft overused "Cupcake" analogy. Grizzaholic pointed this out already.

Fair enough. Hope you work out the financial problems. I'd still like an excuse to catch a game there. xpeacex

Oh, by the way did you hear that ASU is playing LSU this year. xsmiley_wix

(Sorry, couldn't resist) :o

[Ronbo]

OOC last 5 years. If you are on this list some Griz fans think you are a cupcake.xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx

Maine
North Dakota State
Sam Houston State
Idaho
Cal Poly
Maine
Hofstra
Sam Houston State
Northern Colorado
Fort Lewis
Oregon
South Dakota State
Cal Poly
Iowa
South Dakota State
Cal Poly
Southern Utah
Fort Lewis
Albany

[Thunderstruck84]

Cupcake, except one FBS game against Iowa in 2006. All the rest of the OOC games were wins before we took the field.
Did you forget (a D2) NDSU... September 6th, 2003?


:D xpeacex

[Grizzaholic]

Did you forget (a D2) NDSU... September 6th, 2003?


:D xpeacex

I believe Ronbo has it on the list

[Thunderstruck84]

I believe Ronbo has it on the list
I was referring to the fact that all OOC games except Iowa in the last 5 years were supposedly won before the Griz took the field.

[Grizzaholic]

Fair enough. Hope you work out the financial problems. I'd still like an excuse to catch a game there. xpeacex

Oh, by the way did you hear that ASU is playing LSU this year. xsmiley_wix

(Sorry, couldn't resist) :o

So you need an excuse, or is it that you have to convince (sp) your spouse to let you off of your leash to go to a game in Montana?

Here are your way out of both

Excuse: Buuut honey, the team really needs me to do this reconossance (sp) on Montana because we might get to play them this year in the playoffs and we really want to beat them because if we don't we will never hear the end of it and the program might have to go back to NAIA and start at the bottom again.

Convince: Honey, you know how you love the outdoors and would really like to go on a second honeymoon. Well we could go out to Montana and take in the fall colors and Yellowstone and Glacier Parks. While we are out there we could attend a football game in Missoula. They have great food at the tailgates and cater to all out of staters that attend their home games. It would be really fun for both of us.

[Grizzaholic]

I was referring to the fact that all OOC games except Iowa in the last 5 years were supposedly won before the Griz took the field.

Gotcha.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Fair enough. Hope you work out the financial problems. I'd still like an excuse to catch a game there. xpeacex

Oh, by the way did you hear that ASU is playing LSU this year. xsmiley_wix

(Sorry, couldn't resist) :o

Holy crap LSU! How did I miss that one. I hope that ASU shocks the world again in this one. On the other topic we are out of our million dollar debt hole at this point and the schedule this year has come a long way compared to the last couple of years. We still have one d2 for another home money maker but that is at least acceptable. It would seem unlikely that wouldn't have an opportunity in the near future not to get together due to the success of both teams. It is more likely to be in Boone than Missoula if it were to happen next year, so you probably won't get the chance to visit until after the next couple of years.

[Ronbo]

Stupid rookie coach Bobby Hauck gets a 20 somethin' point lead with our 2nd string QB at half. Ochs never played in the NDSU game. Then in the 2nd half he takes his foot off the gas and starts putting in the scubs. By the time he realizes what he has done NDSU has caught us and has all the momentum.

Worst Coaching job in a game I have ever seen. Hauck's first game ever.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Stupid rookie coach Bobby Hauck gets a 20 somethin' point lead with our 2nd string QB at half. Ochs never played in the NDSU game. Then in the 2nd half he takes his foot off the gas and starts putting in the scubs. By the time he realizes what he has done NDSU has caught us and has all the momentum.

Worst Coaching job in a game I have ever seen. Hauck's first game ever.

I agree with you that it was some real bad let off the gas and cruise mentality and it would have worked out fine if we hadn't been playing a team that had some real grit. After letting up in the second half they just were a more physical team once the Griz let up and NDSU got the momentum going. It was a major flaw to let them off the mat.

[Appaholic]

I'm pretty sure that was directed at appaholic and not you. Appaholic is a very bright and funny guy but for some reason he gets kinda stuck in a rut and keeps recycling the ol' cupcake thing for some reason even though a majority of Griz fans have said frequently that we have had some problems to work through lately and would very much like to be able to play some of the other top tier teams buy due to mismanagement of finances needed the home games and had to lower the quality and buy out of some games to meet this need. He is successful in his endeavors though because he gets me to recite my same old line in defense of what has gone on the last few years. You were only guilty of asking the question that gives him the chance to throw in the oft overused "Cupcake" analogy. Grizzaholic pointed this out already.

GUILTY!

[AZGrizFan]

OOC last 5 years. If you are on this list some Griz fans think you are a cupcake.xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx

Maine
North Dakota State
Sam Houston State
Idaho
Cal Poly
Maine
Hofstra
Sam Houston State
Northern Colorado
Fort Lewis
Oregon
South Dakota State
Cal Poly
Iowa
South Dakota State
Cal Poly
Southern Utah
Fort Lewis
Albany

12/19.

[Ronbo]

In 2003 and 2004 Maine was a favorite in th A10. SDSU was 6-5 in 2005 and 7-4 in 2006. Cal Poly was 7-4 in 2003. Idaho is I-A and it doesn't matter what their record is in I-A they would be a top 10 team in I-AA.

[AZGrizFan]

In 2003 and 2004 Maine was a favorite in th A10. SDSU was 6-5 in 2005 and 7-4 in 2006. Cal Poly was 7-4 in 2003. Idaho is I-A and it doesn't matter what their record is in I-A they would be a top 10 team in I-AA.

xconfusedx xconfusedx xconfusedx xconfusedx xconfusedx xconfusedx

I don't think Idaho could have beaten 3 teams in the top 25 I-AA poll last year. And a teams RECORD has nothing to do with whether they're a cupcake, Ronbo.

[Ronbo]

xconfusedx xconfusedx xconfusedx xconfusedx xconfusedx xconfusedx

I don't think Idaho could have beaten 3 teams in the top 25 I-AA poll last year. And a teams RECORD has nothing to do with whether they're a cupcake, Ronbo.

1-11 Idaho beat #5 ranked Cal Poly last season. You're full of bull.

[AZGrizFan]

1-11 Idaho beat #5 ranked Cal Poly last season. You're full of bull.

xlolx xlolx xlolx

touche.

Appparently Cal Poly was one of the 3 then. xlolx xlolx xlolx

[ursus arctos horribilis]

AZ you had it at 12/19? I went and counted them up and I have it at a 15-4 record.

Wins:

Maine
Sam Houston State
Idaho
Cal Poly

Maine
Hofstra
Northern Colorado

Fort Lewis
South Dakota State
Cal Poly

South Dakota State
Cal Poly

Southern Utah
Fort Lewis
Albany



Losses:

North Dakota State

Sam Houston State

Oregon

Iowa

[AZGrizFan]

AZ you had it at 12/19? I went and counted them up and I have it at a 15-4 record.

Wins:

Maine
Sam Houston State
Idaho
Cal Poly

Maine
Hofstra
Northern Colorado

Fort Lewis
South Dakota State
Cal Poly

South Dakota State
Cal Poly

Southern Utah
Fort Lewis
Albany



Losses:

North Dakota State

Sam Houston State

Oregon

Iowa

I meant 12/19 were cupcakes.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Got it.

[AppStFan76]

"But in the last five years we've won more games than anybody in I-AA football. "

Since 2003 both Montana and App have won 52 games each so how could the Griz have won more games than any other 1-AA team, when they have the same # as App?

[ursus arctos horribilis]

I'm pretty sure the Black Bears were just outside of the top 10 when they came to play and I couldn't put SDSU or Cal Poly in the cupcake field. But to each his own.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

"But in the last five years we've won more games than anybody in I-AA football. "

Since 2003 both Montana and App have won 52 games each so how could the Griz have won more games than any other 1-AA team, when they have the same # as App?

We use different math for our strategery.

[Appaholic]

I thought 52 was the number of home games Montana has had in the last two years....xwhistlex

[AZGrizFan]

"But in the last five years we've won more games than anybody in I-AA football. "

Since 2003 both Montana and App have won 52 games each so how could the Griz have won more games than any other 1-AA team, when they have the same # as App?

Apparently Bobby's only counting REGULAR season games. xcoolx xcoolx xcoolx

[ursus arctos horribilis]

I thought 52 was the number of home games Montana has had in the last two years....xwhistlex

You're overstating it just a little bit. The actual number of home games over a three or four year period is a lot closer to number of rushing yds. that App put up against the Griz. If we are lucky then we will get closer to the number of attempts than the yards.

http://web.montanagrizzlies.com/mtgriz/files/stats_content/football_men/2000/FB_Men_12092000_App.htm

[chuges1]

I was referring to the fact that all OOC games except Iowa in the last 5 years were supposedly won before the Griz took the field.

Ya you forgot Oregon. I highly doubt that most griz fans thought that they would take out Oregon at home.

[Green26]

UM has won the 3rd most playoffs games (5) in the past 5 years, according to my quick compilations done by hand. App St has 12 and Delaware 8. I believe No Iowa, UMass, JMU and So Ill have won 4. If I've missed a win or two for some of those teams, I assume my error will corrected by someone.

UM's strength of schedule rating (184 using Sagarin) was low in '07, but has been relatively high in the 4 other years of Hauck's tenure.

In '06, UM's SofS rating (139) was higher than App St's, as well as any team in the Southern conference and perennial powers like Delaware and No Iowa. UMass was 135.

In '05, UM's SofS rating was 127, higher than any A-10 conference team. App St was 124.

In '04, UM's SofS rating was 134, higher than any Gateway conference team. App St was 161.

In '03, UM's SofS was 140, higher than any Southern conference team and ahead of App St's 161.

Ronbo has posted the OCC list for the past 5 years. Overall, that's a more than credible schedule, and certainly not a cupcake schedule. There are only 3 D-II/NAIA games on the list, including No Dak St. UM's strength of schedule was higher than App St's in 3 of the past 5 years.

I previously analyzed some stats regarding conference strengths of schedule in I-AA, using Sagarin over various periods of time. The methodology was to use the actual ranking in the year, i.e. 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc, and average them. Below are some of the stats from memory.

While the Big Sky conference was down at 7th in '07, in the prior 4 and 5 year-periods (i.e. '03 - '06 and '02 - '06), the Big Sky was the top ranked conference. In the last 5 year period, i.e. '02 - '07, the Big Sky was the no. 3 ranked conference.

In my view, those who harp on cupcake schedule for UM, or weak conference--except perhaps in '07--are showing their ignorance of I-AA football.

[GOKATS]

UM has won the 3rd most playoffs games (5) in the past 5 years, according to my quick compilations done by hand. App St has 12 and Delaware 8. I believe No Iowa, UMass, JMU and So Ill have won 4. If I've missed a win or two for some of those teams, I assume my error will corrected by someone.

UM's strength of schedule rating (184 using Sagarin) was low in '07, but has been relatively high in the 4 other years of Hauck's tenure.

In '06, UM's SofS rating (139) was higher than App St's, as well as any team in the Southern conference and perennial powers like Delaware and No Iowa. UMass was 135.

In '05, UM's SofS rating was 127, higher than any A-10 conference team. App St was 124.

In '04, UM's SofS rating was 134, higher than any Gateway conference team. App St was 161.

In '03, UM's SofS was 140, higher than any Southern conference team and ahead of App St's 161.

Ronbo has posted the OCC list for the past 5 years. Overall, that's a more than credible schedule, and certainly not a cupcake schedule. There are only 3 D-II/NAIA games on the list, including No Dak St. UM's strength of schedule was higher than App St's in 3 of the past 5 years.

I previously analyzed some stats regarding conference strengths of schedule in I-AA, using Sagarin over various periods of time. The methodology was to use the actual ranking in the year, i.e. 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc, and average them. Below are some of the stats from memory.

While the Big Sky conference was down at 7th in '07, in the prior 4 and 5 year-periods (i.e. '03 - '06 and '02 - '06), the Big Sky was the top ranked conference. In the last 5 year period, i.e. '02 - '07, the Big Sky was the no. 3 ranked conference.

In my view, those who harp on cupcake schedule for UM, or weak conference--except perhaps in '07--are showing their ignorance of I-AA football.

It's FCS stupid.xnodx

[FCS Go!]

First off, I am sorry to all of those that do not want to read about Griz related topics but to the others and Griz fans alike this seems to me to be very disturbing. I have never really gone one way or the other about Hauck's coaching style but this puts me in the dislike catagory.

http://missoulian.com/articles/2008/04/09/sports/sports03.txt

“Not unless we have a change of personality, which I don't think we're going to do,” Hauck said. “Sometimes change is born out of necessity. But in the last five years we've won more games than anybody in I-AA football. If something's not broken there's no need to fix it.”

Any Griz team that doesn't win the NC is a failure to many Griz fans. What is he supposed to say?

Would Griz fans be happier with this: "Yeah, all our RBs suck so we're going to have to throw the ball 60 times a game." Or "We've had some pretty poor teams in the last five years. We've only been to one championship game for Christ sakes. App St has been to three and everyone knows that they suck." How about "If only we had some players who would put in a decent effort we could have beat those pussies at Oregon."

Quit your whining guys and start a thread about the Griz moving to the WAC.

[mvemjsunpx]

I don't know why anyone would consider a comment like this worrisome (other than the fact that the Griz are tied for first with App State in wins since '03, not alone in first). It's not like there's some sort of magic to winning postseason games. They're just like most any other game against a tough opponent. You try to exploit weaknesses & take away strengths just like against any other opponent. The Griz are 5-5 in the playoffs under Hauck. It looks mediocre when compared to Joe Glenn's 8-2 mark, but it's still better than the vast majority of FCS coaches.

A lot of people have blamed Montana's loss to Wofford on things such as a weak schedule or some sort of postseason choke mentality on Hauck's part. That's ridiculous. It'd be one thing if the Griz hadn't beaten anyone good in the regular season last year, but they did beat quarterfinalist EWU, won at NAU (a team App State had some trouble with at home), & crushed the Bobcats in Bozeman. The Griz also convincingly beat near-playoff caliber Albany at home. So, in other words, the schedule was relatively weak, but not in the ways that would hurt come time for a playoff game. I personally blame the loss to Wofford on Kraig Paulson's complete inability to gameplan the triple option. He obviously didn't learn much in the 9 years following that horrible Southern Utah loss.

[mvemjsunpx]

Quit your whining guys and start a thread about the Griz moving to the WAC.





FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, NO!!!!!!!!

[Jerbearasu]

UM has won the 3rd most playoffs games (5) in the past 5 years, according to my quick compilations done by hand. App St has 12 and Delaware 8. I believe No Iowa, UMass, JMU and So Ill have won 4. If I've missed a win or two for some of those teams, I assume my error will corrected by someone.

UM's strength of schedule rating (184 using Sagarin) was low in '07, but has been relatively high in the 4 other years of Hauck's tenure.

In '06, UM's SofS rating (139) was higher than App St's, as well as any team in the Southern conference and perennial powers like Delaware and No Iowa. UMass was 135.

In '05, UM's SofS rating was 127, higher than any A-10 conference team. App St was 124.

In '04, UM's SofS rating was 134, higher than any Gateway conference team. App St was 161.

In '03, UM's SofS was 140, higher than any Southern conference team and ahead of App St's 161.

Ronbo has posted the OCC list for the past 5 years. Overall, that's a more than credible schedule, and certainly not a cupcake schedule. There are only 3 D-II/NAIA games on the list, including No Dak St. UM's strength of schedule was higher than App St's in 3 of the past 5 years.

I previously analyzed some stats regarding conference strengths of schedule in I-AA, using Sagarin over various periods of time. The methodology was to use the actual ranking in the year, i.e. 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc, and average them. Below are some of the stats from memory.

While the Big Sky conference was down at 7th in '07, in the prior 4 and 5 year-periods (i.e. '03 - '06 and '02 - '06), the Big Sky was the top ranked conference. In the last 5 year period, i.e. '02 - '07, the Big Sky was the no. 3 ranked conference.

In my view, those who harp on cupcake schedule for UM, or weak conference--except perhaps in '07--are showing their ignorance of I-AA football.

Agree with you and also good job on the research. The only thing I will say is how many of those OOC games are away games. Wa-Griz is a tough place to win and I think the perception is that you only play games at home (even buying out games and scheduling lower tier competition) unless you are forced to by conference mandate.

[Green26]

Most UM OCC games are played at home. Obviously, the I-A games are played on the road, although UM had a 3-2 series with Idaho which ended 4 seasons ago. In recent memory, UM has had home-and-homes with Sam Houston, Maine and Hofstra. UM bought out of a second home-and-home with Hofstra during its million dollar budget crisis. UM also has played Cal Poly on the road on occasion, but the majority of those games have been in Missoula.

UM is playing Cal Poly on the road this year, and has signed a home-and-home (perhaps a 2-1) with Cal-Davis. Note that So Utah is the only OOC I-A that UM is able to bus to. This impacts OOC scheduling.

I see no reason to apologize (and I know you're weren't suggesting that) for UM being in position to play most of its OOC games at home. UM nets almost $400,000 per home game, even against D-II's. The gameday atmosphere is incredibly fun.

The debt for UM's 4,000-seat north endzone addition is about to be paid off. Thus, if this revenue stream is not diverted, this will result in a much higher net income per game. UM is also adding 2,000 new seats as of this fall, most of which are higher revenue seats. Thus, while UM should have more revenue to travel with (which is both travel costs of "loss" of home game revenue) in coming years, it "costs" UM alot to give up a home game.

Since part of this thread is about strength of schedule, I will also mention a phenomena that has developed over the years. Both with conference games and some OOC games, it has been noted by coaches and players, as well as some fans, that UM almost always gets opponents' best shots, including not-infrequently the opponent's best game of the season. This phenomena tends to offset the advantage of playing at home.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Agree with you and also good job on the research. The only thing I will say is how many of those OOC games are away games. Wa-Griz is a tough place to win and I think the perception is that you only play games at home (even buying out games and scheduling lower tier competition) unless you are forced to by conference mandate.

You say this just after commenting on the SOS #'s that Green 26 puts up. So if this is the perception and it has been refuted but you still ask the question then what can be done about the perception? The couple of games that were bought of have been defended with very believable and reasonable explanations, but the question is brought up again. Since this has been explained ad nauseum as well and the question still persists what can be done about others perceptions? There were no games bought out of before 2005 but this track record doesn't mean anything?

Just using ASU vs. U of M as an example of home games for OOC, ASU averages 2/yr, and U of M averages 3/yr. over the last 5 years. Not a huge difference but I would rather watch the game in Wa-Griz anyway so I'm not gonna complain about losing this one to ASU for arguments sake. Home field in the NFL is generally accepted at 3 pts., in college football it is fair to say it's 4-5 points for a good program with a good atmosphere. Just to be fair let's say at Montana it is worth 6 points. With that in mind Montana would have 2 wins taken away in the last 5 years, both of them to Cal Poly which we beat once by 3, and another by 1 point. U of M's avg. margin of victory in those 14 wins over the 5 year period was 19.8/ppg.

[mvemjsunpx]

Agree with you and also good job on the research. The only thing I will say is how many of those OOC games are away games. Wa-Griz is a tough place to win and I think the perception is that you only play games at home (even buying out games and scheduling lower tier competition) unless you are forced to by conference mandate.

That isn't really true. Montana bought out DII Western Washington twice in order to play I-A opponents.

[Green26]

To my knowledge, games were bought out only during, and due to, the million dollar budget crisis--except perhaps those D-II games which were sorta scheduled as placeholders pending finding a better game.

Hofstra was bought in the second home-and-home. Was South Dak St bought out? A road Cal Poly game was moved to a later year, and may or may not have involved a payment.

In addition to the budget problems, OOC scheduling was easier during the years of 12 allowed games each year and when the Big Sky had only 8 teams. There were always one and sometimes two more OOC games to schedule. Thus, with 4 or 5 games, UM had more Saturdays to use to find suitable games and could more easily "give up" home game revenue to play on the road.

Now that UM's budget deficit is paid off, UM appears to be scheduling I-AA home and homes again.

The common problem is that too many fans, both UM and AGS, tend to be myopic (by focusing on only one thing or one year)--and then they use the one thing or one year as the general rule. They are either incapable of or too biased to look at the big picture and look at all the facts.

[SoCon48]

I'll agree with you....I'm leaning toward dislike. His statement about winning more games in 1-AA may be true, but he obviously isn't focusing enough on playoffs vs. regular season games.

If the AD would honor the home and away deals, they can pick up more challenging nationally ranked FCS opponents thus better preparing them for the play-offs and the Wofford debacles in Griz stadium wouldn't happen.

App fans would have loved a home-away deal with Montana last year or in the coming season. Montana at ASU would have set records in attendance and interest and maybe vice versa at Griz..

[SoCon48]

To my knowledge, games were bought out only during, and due to, the million dollar budget crisis--except perhaps those D-II games which were sorta scheduled as placeholders pending finding a better game.

Hofstra was bought in the second home-and-home. Was South Dak St bought out? A road Cal Poly game was moved to a later year, and may or may not have involved a payment.


Now that UM's budget deficit is paid off, UM appears to be scheduling I-AA home and homes again.

The common problem is that too many fans, both UM and AGS, tend to be myopic (by focusing on only one thing or one year)--and then they use the one thing or one year as the general rule. They are either incapable of or too biased to look at the big picture and look at all the facts.

It's going to be hard to get quality programs to fall for the home-away deals again unless the opponent gets the first home part. With the griz gates over the past few years, it's hard to imagine how they got into any shortfall. If the scheduling is only one year apart on the return trip, a smart AD would have banked much of the proceeds to make up for the one less home revenue and maybe travel costs the next year.
Needless to say, many programs aren't buying the deficit excuse and may be gunshy and not take the chance. Not saying at all that it wasn't legit. It's just a pattern creates a rep.
Wasn't Montana still making plans for expansion and improvements the whole time this was going on? Just asking.

[Grizzaholic]

Any Griz team that doesn't win the NC is a failure to many Griz fans. What is he supposed to say?

Would Griz fans be happier with this: "Yeah, all our RBs suck so we're going to have to throw the ball 60 times a game." Or "We've had some pretty poor teams in the last five years. We've only been to one championship game for Christ sakes. App St has been to three and everyone knows that they suck." How about "If only we had some players who would put in a decent effort we could have beat those pussies at Oregon."

Quit your whining guys and start a thread about the Griz moving to the WAC.

He is supposed to say pretty much everything you said but the exact opposite.

And on a side note, Who **** in your cereal this morning? And why did you go ahead and eat it anyway?

[SoCon48]

....... won at NAU (a team App State had some trouble with at home), & crushed the Bobcats in Bozeman. The Griz also convincingly beat near-playoff caliber Albany at home. So, in other words, the schedule was relatively weak, but not in the ways that would hurt come time for a playoff game. I personally blame the loss to Wofford on Kraig Paulson's complete inability to gameplan the triple option. He obviously didn't learn much in the 9 years following that horrible Southern Utah loss.

You might say App had trouble with NAU in the Mountaineers 13 point win, but considering the ASU back up QB played the whole game, it wasn't that big of a deal. Plus ASU's defense was its weakest link in '07 yet only gave up 1 TD in the first three quarters.
No doubt though, NAU is a formidable program.

[Ronbo]

Most UM OCC games are played at home. Obviously, the I-A games are played on the road, although UM had a 3-2 series with Idaho which ended 4 seasons ago. In recent memory, UM has had home-and-homes with Sam Houston, Maine and Hofstra. UM bought out of a second home-and-home with Hofstra during its million dollar budget crisis. UM also has played Cal Poly on the road on occasion, but the majority of those games have been in Missoula.

UM is playing Cal Poly on the road this year, and has signed a home-and-home (perhaps a 2-1) with Cal-Davis. Note that So Utah is the only OOC I-A that UM is able to bus to. This impacts OOC scheduling.

I see no reason to apologize (and I know you're weren't suggesting that) for UM being in position to play most of its OOC games at home. UM nets almost $400,000 per home game, even against D-II's. The gameday atmosphere is incredibly fun.

The debt for UM's 4,000-seat north endzone addition is about to be paid off. Thus, if this revenue stream is not diverted, this will result in a much higher net income per game. UM is also adding 2,000 new seats as of this fall, most of which are higher revenue seats. Thus, while UM should have more revenue to travel with (which is both travel costs of "loss" of home game revenue) in coming years, it "costs" UM alot to give up a home game.

Since part of this thread is about strength of schedule, I will also mention a phenomena that has developed over the years. Both with conference games and some OOC games, it has been noted by coaches and players, as well as some fans, that UM almost always gets opponents' best shots, including not-infrequently the opponent's best game of the season. This phenomena tends to offset the advantage of playing at home.


According to a conversation I had with the AD the net will go way up this season because the N. End Zone is paid off and the new expansion revenue. We'll be netting over $550,000 a game now for FCS OOC games, over $600,000 on DII, and $900,000 on the MSU game.

[FargoBison]

Hofstra was bought in the second home-and-home. Was South Dak St bought out? A road Cal Poly game was moved to a later year, and may or may not have involved a payment.
s.

You did buy SDSU out of a 2 for 1, that infuriated me to no end to see a quality program like SDSU get treated like that. Playing at Cal Poly this year is a good step in the right direction, keep on honoring contracts and in a few years fans won't be so hard on you guys.

[trouthunter]

Most UM OCC games are played at home. Obviously, the I-A games are played on the road, although UM had a 3-2 series with Idaho which ended 4 seasons ago. In recent memory, UM has had home-and-homes with Sam Houston, Maine and Hofstra. UM bought out of a second home-and-home with Hofstra during its million dollar budget crisis. UM also has played Cal Poly on the road on occasion, but the majority of those games have been in Missoula.

UM is playing Cal Poly on the road this year, and has signed a home-and-home (perhaps a 2-1) with Cal-Davis. Note that So Utah is the only OOC I-A that UM is able to bus to. This impacts OOC scheduling.

I see no reason to apologize (and I know you're weren't suggesting that) for UM being in position to play most of its OOC games at home. UM nets almost $400,000 per home game, even against D-II's. The gameday atmosphere is incredibly fun.

The debt for UM's 4,000-seat north endzone addition is about to be paid off. Thus, if this revenue stream is not diverted, this will result in a much higher net income per game. UM is also adding 2,000 new seats as of this fall, most of which are higher revenue seats. Thus, while UM should have more revenue to travel with (which is both travel costs of "loss" of home game revenue) in coming years, it "costs" UM alot to give up a home game.

Since part of this thread is about strength of schedule, I will also mention a phenomena that has developed over the years. Both with conference games and some OOC games, it has been noted by coaches and players, as well as some fans, that UM almost always gets opponents' best shots, including not-infrequently the opponent's best game of the season. This phenomena tends to offset the advantage of playing at home.

The scuttlebutt I heard after the Eastern Washington game was that the Eagles dedicated one practice every week for the entire season to get ready to play the Griz. But scuttlebutt is just that...

[Green26]

SoCon48, you are the epitome of someone who refuses to listen to the facts.

To my knowledge, UM has bought out of two I-AA games in its history--and both were absolutely tied to the budget deficit. After the budget crisis came to light, the president of the university and the state board of regents stepped in to impose a plan for paying off the deficit in a certain period of time and in a certain manner.

While some AD's may have been wary about scheduling UM a couple years ago in a home and home, UM scheduled two home and homes starting next fall. I don't believe UM currently has problems scheduling home and homes. The reason for the prior buy-outs is a pretty easy explanation for anyone who listens.

App St and UM talked about a game in Missoula for last fall. However, dates weren't completely lined up and App St wanted more money than UM was willing to pay. Also, coach Hauck has said that he prefers to play playoff caliber teams in the playoffs. The players, however, like the good I-AA games. Hauck also doesn't believe that playing a top quality OOC schedule is necessary or helpful for being successful in the playoffs.

Trying to take the one-point Wofford loss and make it into some big deal is another example of the myopic views of some fans. in my view. The Wofford loss was a loss, a bad loss. Nothing more. It could have been won by any of a dozen of plays in the 4th quarter, including the last second FG by the all-american kicker. When the game was on the line in the 4th quarter, Wofford made more plays than the Griz. Wofford deserved the win. Playing Iowa or App St in the early season, would not have assured victory over Wofford.

[Green26]

FargoBison, maybe SDS needs to learn how to read and negotiate its contracts. If during a million dollar budget deficit, UM can pay a $50,000 buyout in order to net $400,000 at home, it's really an easy decision. It may be about honor to you, but it's about dollars and cents, and keeping the program afloat, to the powers that be in the president's office and board of regents when an extra million dollars needs to be found. Also, with all due respect, keeping the fans of South and North Dakota happy is not a goal of the UM athletic department.

[FargoBison]

FargoBison, maybe SDS needs to learn how to read and negotiate its contracts. If during a million dollar budget deficit, UM can pay a $50,000 buyout in order to net $400,000 at home, it's really an easy decision. It may be about honor to you, but it's about dollars and cents, and keeping the program afloat, to the powers that be in the president's office and board of regents when an extra million dollars needs to be found. Also, with all due respect, keeping the fans of South and North Dakota happy is not a goal of the UM athletic department.

Dollars and cents are important but there is a point where having honor is also important, buying out games is a double edged sword to say the least. With that said whats done is done, with the deficit gone and even more seats in your stadium this shouldn't be much of an issue anymore.

[RazorEdge19]

Trying to take the one-point Wofford loss and make it into some big deal is another example of the myopic views of some fans. in my view. The Wofford loss was a loss, a bad loss. Nothing more. It could have been won by any of a dozen of plays in the 4th quarter, including the last second FG by the all-american kicker. When the game was on the line in the 4th quarter, Wofford made more plays than the Griz. Wofford deserved the win. Playing Iowa or App St in the early season, would not have assured victory over Wofford.

I'm glad you are a level headed fan. I really think, when it came down to it, Wofford's offense was simply faster then anything Montana had seen before. They prepared well for it, on defense, played well on offense, and lost a tight game against a quality opponent. Wofford played a tight game against a quality opponent as well, and was fortunate enough to have your kicker miss a FG. Montana has nothing to be ashamed of after that game.

[AZGrizFan]

I'm glad you are a level headed fan. I really think, when it came down to it, Wofford's offense was simply faster then anything Montana had seen before. They prepared well for it, on defense, played well on offense, and lost a tight game against a quality opponent. Wofford played a tight game against a quality opponent as well, and was fortunate enough to have your kicker miss a FG. Montana has nothing to be ashamed of after that game.

I agree in principle, but not with that statement. It's the misdirection and deceptiveness of the offense that Montana hadn't seen, not the "speed". We play lots of fast teams....just never one where any one of 5 different guys can get the ball on any given play....that misdirection and deception is a killer. xoopsx xoopsx xoopsx xoopsx

[uofmman1122]

I'm glad you are a level headed fan. I really think, when it came down to it, Wofford's offense was simply faster then anything Montana had seen before. They prepared well for it, on defense, played well on offense, and lost a tight game against a quality opponent. Wofford played a tight game against a quality opponent as well, and was fortunate enough to have your kicker miss a FG. Montana has nothing to be ashamed of after that game.I disagree. We played alright, but definitely not to our ability. Also, having zero points off of three turnovers didn't help us much. And I agree with AZGrizFan, in that we've dealt with fast teams before, but weren't well prepared for that style of offense.

All in all, going back to the original topic, I'm not worried, really. Some Griz fans may be calling this the End of Days, but I think that even though we're a little Green and thin, most teams would kill to have the talent that we do right now for next year. Our boys will play their hearts out next year, and I think we'll win a lot, and we might lose a few, but I'm not about to call this the end of Griz football. xrolleyesx xlolx

[SoCon48]

SoCon48, you are the epitome of someone who refuses to listen to the facts.

To my knowledge, UM has bought out of two I-AA games in its history--and both were absolutely tied to the budget deficit. After the budget crisis came to light, the president of the university and the state board of regents stepped in to impose a plan for paying off the deficit in a certain period of time and in a certain manner.

While some AD's may have been wary about scheduling UM a couple years ago in a home and home, UM scheduled two home and homes starting next fall. I don't believe UM currently has problems scheduling home and homes. .

App St and UM talked about a game in Missoula for last fall. However, dates weren't completely lined up and App St wanted more money than UM was willing to pay. Also, coach Hauck has said that he prefers to play playoff caliber teams in the playoffs. The players, however, like the good I-AA games. Hauck also doesn't believe that playing a top quality OOC schedule is necessary or helpful for being successful in the playoffs.

Trying to take the one-point Wofford loss and make it into some big deal is another example of the myopic views of some fans. in my view. The Wofford loss was a loss, a bad loss. Nothing more. It could have been won by any of a dozen of plays in the 4th quarter, including the last second FG by the all-american kicker. When the game was on the line in the 4th quarter, Wofford made more plays than the Griz. Wofford deserved the win. Playing Iowa or App St in the early season, would not have assured victory over Wofford.

Facts? A better word is rationalization.

As to App, can you blame them for wanting a good payday to travel all the way out there just to play another FCS team? I'm sure given the history a home and home wasn't discussed without Monty showing up in Boone first or ponying up enough dough..
As to: The reason for the prior buy-outs is a pretty easy explanation for anyone who listens.
You mean anyone with wool over their eyes. When something happens that often with Montana already collecting on their end..few will listen.xrolleyesx

Hauck also doesn't believe that playing a top quality OOC schedule is necessary or helpful for being successful in the playoffs
Can't blame him for saying that, but just how well has it worked so far???:(

UM scheduled two home and homes starting next fall. I don't believe UM currently has problems scheduling home and homes. .

Not surprising, but I bet the buyout clause amount is astronomical, unless of course the first of the home and home is at the opponent's facility or they were so desperate in scheduling.xthumbsupx

[Green26]

AZGriz fan, I agree with you about the precision and deception of the Wofford option being more important than the speed in the Wofford team. Had UM played Wofford or a similar option team in the past couple years, we would have been able to be more prepared for Wofford. Wofford was the only team in the playoff field that UM preferred not to play--and that was because of the difficulty of preparing for their option offense.

I once looked at an article discussing Wofford's speed, both on offense and defense. Except for a receiver who caught perhaps one pass, UM had as much or more speed. The biggest speed (and ability) issue was the Wofford qb. He was very fast, hard to tackle, made very good and difficult pitches, and made good decisions. In my view, he was the difference maker. Also note the Wofford had scored only 1 TD prior to the 4th quarter, when they got 2 more. Wofford just made more plays in the 4th quarter than UM did.

[SoCon48]

FargoBison, maybe SDS needs to learn how to read and negotiate its contracts. If during a million dollar budget deficit, UM can pay a $50,000 buyout in order to net $400,000 at home, it's really an easy decision. It may be about honor to you, but it's about dollars and cents, and keeping the program afloat, to the powers that be in the president's office and board of regents when an extra million dollars needs to be found. Also, with all due respect, keeping the fans of South and North Dakota happy is not a goal of the UM athletic department.

Good point. $$$ does mean more to some.

Keeping the program afloat might should start with being able to pay for renovations and expansions without cheating people. xnonox Unless of course that was the strategy in the first place.

Also, with all due respect, keeping the fans of South and North Dakota happy is not a goal of the UM athletic department
Obviously. Maybe it won't bite UM in the butt in the future.xnonox

[Green26]

SonCon48, like I said, you are the epitome of someone who won't listen. You have your view, and you will stick to it without regard to the facts.You act like buying out two I-AA games to help pay off a budget deficit is something beyond belief and dishonorable, and something UM can never recover from. Teams are welcome to negotiate the buyouts clauses just like App St is welcome to ask for whatever guarantee they want. Was anyone blaming App St for wanting a good payday? I've noticed that people who can't defend their positions often come back trying to create a strawman or trying to divert the discussion to something that wasn't being discussed.

UM's scheduling has worked well enough under Hauck to win the 3rd most playoff games during the period, to get to the national championship game, to get to the seminfinals twice, and be the only (I believe) to get to the playoffs in each of the last 5 years. I would say that UM's scheduling is working quite well. I suppose SoCon won't let these facts get in the way of his view, tho.

[uofmman1122]

Facts? A better word is rationalization.

As to App, can you blame them for wanting a good payday to travel all the way out there just to play another FCS team? I'm sure given the history a home and home wasn't discussed without Monty showing up in Boone first or ponying up enough dough..
As to: The reason for the prior buy-outs is a pretty easy explanation for anyone who listens.
You mean anyone with wool over their eyes. When something happens that often with Montana already collecting on their end..few will listen.xrolleyesx

Hauck also doesn't believe that playing a top quality OOC schedule is necessary or helpful for being successful in the playoffs
Can't blame him for saying that, but just how well has it worked so far???:(

UM scheduled two home and homes starting next fall. I don't believe UM currently has problems scheduling home and homes. .

Not surprising, but I bet the buyout clause amount is astronomical, unless of course the first of the home and home is at the opponent's facility or they were so desperate in scheduling.xthumbsupxxlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx

Take off your green-tinted glasses for a second. You assume so much about the Griz, and know so little. As I'm sure you haven't heard, since you're assuming almost everything in your post, Montana just got into a 5-year deal with Cal Poly, in which we play the first game at Cal Poly this year, have 3 home games the next 3 years, and then end the series at Cal Poly. OH NOES! 3 home games! Those Bastards! xlolx

Your breath stinks of Griz hate, yet it's so shallow that you use your own prejudices to back up your assumptions. xnodx

It's a stupid issue that's been beaten to death on this board.

[GrizzlyEdd]

It's FCS stupid.xnodx

Another in a long line of "intelligent" comments by a Montana State College Bobcat fan....xnodxxlolx

[mvemjsunpx]

Good point. $$$ does mean more to some.

Keeping the program afloat might should start with being able to pay for renovations and expansions without cheating people. xnonox Unless of course that was the strategy in the first place.


Uh, how exactly is exercising a buyout clause that's in the contract cheating someone? xeyebrowx


Also, with all due respect, keeping the fans of South and North Dakota happy is not a goal of the UM athletic department
Obviously. Maybe it won't bite UM in the butt in the future.xnonox


When did it ever "bite UM in the butt"? What the hell are you even talking about?

[ursus arctos horribilis]

SonCon48, like I said, you are the epitome of someone who won't listen. You have your view, and you will stick to it without regard to the facts.You act like buying out two I-AA games to help pay off a budget deficit is something beyond belief and dishonorable, and something UM can never recover from. Teams are welcome to negotiate the buyouts clauses just like App St is welcome to ask for whatever guarantee they want. Was anyone blaming App St for wanting a good payday? I've noticed that people who can't defend their positions often come back trying to create a strawman or trying to divert the discussion to something that wasn't being discussed.

UM's scheduling has worked well enough under Hauck to win the 3rd most playoff games during the period, to get to the national championship game, to get to the seminfinals twice, and be the only (I believe) to get to the playoffs in each of the last 5 years. I would say that UM's scheduling is working quite well. I suppose SoCon won't let these facts get in the way of his view, tho.


xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx

Take off your green-tinted glasses for a second. You assume so much about the Griz, and know so little. As I'm sure you haven't heard, since you're assuming almost everything in your post, Montana just got into a 5-year deal with Cal Poly, in which we play the first game at Cal Poly this year, have 3 home games the next 3 years, and then end the series at Cal Poly. OH NOES! 3 home games! Those Bastards! xlolx

Your breath stinks of Griz hate, yet it's so shallow that you use your own prejudices to back up your assumptions. xnodx

It's a stupid issue that's been beaten to death on this board.

Fellas, you gotta let up on SoCon 48, he's not the sharpest knife. He doesn't believe the deficit existed, even though it was a top headline in almost all the Montana papers and every 1AA site at the time. He believes that buying out of 2 or 3 FCS games is a what we are instead of the fact that it happened during a couple of year period so that constitutes our history, you can't take the other 100+ years into account. Leave the poor guy alone, he is uninformed and is not interested in your opinion or facts he is still a douchebag, the name change did nothing to change this fact. Although App has had success the last few years he still has "Daddy" issues with the Griz. The 19-16 loss was so painful to him that he can't let the bashing go. It probably has something to do with the fact that App had to come here to play the game that makes him so stuck in the Griz having home games issue. He is broken and you will very likely be unable to have a reasonable discussion with him. I would concentrate on the other App fans that still possess an ability to reason. Trying to have a discussion based on fact with him is akin to having a reasoned discussion with the "Loose Change" lunatics.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Uh, how exactly is exercising a buyout clause that's in the contract cheating someone? xeyebrowx



When did it ever "bite UM in the butt"? What the hell are you even talking about?

Sorry mvemjsunpx, see the post above and include yourself to this list.

[Jerbearasu]

He doesn't believe the deficit existed, even though it was a top headline in almost all the Montana papers and every 1AA site at the time. He believes that buying out of 2 or 3 FCS games is a what we are instead of the fact that it happened during a couple of year period so that constitutes our history, you can't take the other 100+ years into account. Leave the poor guy alone, he is uninformed and is not interested in your opinion or facts he is still a douchebag, the name change did nothing to change this fact. Although App has had success the last few years he still has "Daddy" issues with the Griz. The 19-16 loss was so painful to him that he can't let the bashing go.

This isn't anything against Montana but right now the perception is that you have a bad OOC and you buy out of games. I was surprised when I read that it was only 2 or 3 that's how bad the perception is. I knew that the athletic program was in deficit but it is still IMO bad business to back out of deals (I still hate it when athletes want to renegotiate after they have a good season). I know it is in the contract that they can but it is still cheap to do so and more teams will be wary when you want to put together a series because of it.

Montana does have a great program and history but this is what other fans think of it at this moment. They can make the playoffs every year because the Big Sky isn't regarded as the deepest conference so they receive the auto bid and their OOC is so weak they can easily have an 8-3 season and be an at-large. I personnally like having an OOC schedule with a cupcake, a money FBS game, and a quality FCS team. That to me is a good mix that keeps fans interested and also keeps the team prepared for the conference schedule and hopefully if the season goes well the playoffs.

I am really looking forward to the Cal Poly series you've put together. I doubt it will be on TV here in North Carolina so I will have to listen to it online.

Also, that '00 semifinal game in Missoula still haunts me today so it isn't just SoCon48. In hindsight, even though I still hat it, it was a great game!

[ursus arctos horribilis]

This isn't anything against Montana but right now the perception is that you have a bad OOC and you buy out of games. I was surprised when I read that it was only 2 or 3 that's how bad the perception is. I knew that the athletic program was in deficit but it is still IMO bad business to back out of deals (I still hate it when athletes want to renegotiate after they have a good season). I know it is in the contract that they can but it is still cheap to do so and more teams will be wary when you want to put together a series because of it.

Montana does have a great program and history but this is what other fans think of it at this moment. They can make the playoffs every year because the Big Sky isn't regarded as the deepest conference so they receive the auto bid and their OOC is so weak they can easily have an 8-3 season and be an at-large. I personnally like having an OOC schedule with a cupcake, a money FBS game, and a quality FCS team. That to me is a good mix that keeps fans interested and also keeps the team prepared for the conference schedule and hopefully if the season goes well the playoffs.

I am really looking forward to the Cal Poly series you've put together. I doubt it will be on TV here in North Carolina so I will have to listen to it online.

Also, that '00 semifinal game in Missoula still haunts me today so it isn't just SoCon48. In hindsight, even though I still hat it, it was a great game!

The greatest thing about this board to me is that I get an insiders view into the views and so forth of guys that support other teams. I can get a flavor and gain insight into what the true story is concerning what is going on with their team. It gives me a greater knowledge base to be taught these intricacies by fans of the team. The perception of the Duke Lacrosse team was once of a bunch of young rich kids that got out of control and raped a girl. The facts show something quite different. Your perception of any issue is guided in large part to your initial gut reaction. Once you get some more information on it shouldn't you make an adjustment to your perception based on the newly acquired information? You possess this ability and are showing so by the statements you have made in your post. Things aren't what you thought they were as far as the game buyouts and you are surprised by that. I am sure that by surprised you mean that with the new information your outlook on the issue is now different.

The contracts were honored. There was a buyout in those contracts and the schools that were bought out cashed checks thus fulfilling the contracts. Was this perfect? I would say no but the fact is the schools got a check and were then able to go out and schedule another game for their home crowd and keep the money that they bargained for fair and square with U of M. It did not put those schools in a good position and I wish it hadn't happened those couple of times but acting like the schools didn't have a game in place of the UM game is not accurate. I don't know what line of work you are in but for analogy sake let's say you were in sales at a local level. You suddenly have a good year or two and you get a big raise and other perks from the company you are working for. If another company were to come along and offer to double your salary will your honor still be with the first company or will your honor lie with yourself and what is best for your family? I personally would fulfill my commitment to the company and move on to the better job as fast as I could make it happen.

I would like to thank you for having the discussion so you know a little more as to what the story is instead of just trying to make it an adversarial back and forth argument. Nothing can be learned from that type of thing. I get into a lot of arguments with local folks that have misguided information about many teams outside of the Big Sky Conference. They have many misguided ideas about why App should have been ranked where they were after losing a couple last year, or that they think the CAA wasn't that good, or why McNeese was this or that. I always bury these dolts due to the fact that I get a better perspective and much more information than they do via my discussions on this board with the fans of those teams. So thank you, for the opportunity to learn something, to all of you.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Oh yeah, and I forgot to tell you about that App game. I became a real fan of App that day, they were a great team and had true guts. They couldn't run the ball at all and could have easily layed down and died like so many other teams have, but they fought every second of the day. Both defenses were physical and punishing. I would have thought it was a great game if we hadn't won it but I am glad we pulled it out against that team of salty bastards. From that day on I was a fan of the Mountaineers.

[Green26]

Jerbearasu:

1. Again, UM has exercised its buyout provision to get out of only two I-AA games. It also postponed playing Cal Poly. You acknowledged being surprised by this.

2. The Big Sky slipped to a no. 7 rating in 2007. However, in the prior four-year period, as well as the prior five-year period, the Big Sky was the no. 1rated conference, according to Sagarin rankings over that time period. How can anyone be saying the Big Sky is a weak conference?

3. UM's strength of schedule has been better than App St's in 3 of the past 5 years, including 2006, according to Sagarain. How can anyone be saying UM's schedule is weak? Jeez, look at Ronbo's list of teams we've played. It includes 2 games against D-II's plus No Dak St over the five-year period. If UM wanted to play a bodybag game against a top I-A every year, UM's strength of schedule would be considerably higher.

4. Fans are welcome to think what they want about Montana exercising its buyout clauses a couple times (to help pay off the deficit). However, they are not welcome to make up their own facts about strength of conference or strength of schedule.

5. Perhaps some of you need to start getting your information from sources other than certain (no nothing) posters on AGS.

[eaglesrthe1]

Good point. $$$ does mean more to some.

Keeping the program afloat might should start with being able to pay for renovations and expansions without cheating people. xnonox Unless of course that was the strategy in the first place.

Also, with all due respect, keeping the fans of South and North Dakota happy is not a goal of the UM athletic department
Obviously. Maybe it won't bite UM in the butt in the future.xnonox

Seems to me that the terms of the contract were met when UM paid the $$$. Contract filled in full, no bitchin allowed. If anyone is to blame because some feel slighted, then the finger should be pointed at the party that negotiated the contract, not the party that fulfilled it.

It is definitely NOT nor should it be a goal of the UM athletic department to keep the fans of South and North Dakota happy. That's the job of those respective schools ADs.

[Jerbearasu]

The greatest thing about this board to me is that I get an insiders view into the views and so forth of guys that support other teams. I can get a flavor and gain insight into what the true story is concerning what is going on with their team. It gives me a greater knowledge base to be taught these intricacies by fans of the team. The perception of the Duke Lacrosse team was once of a bunch of young rich kids that got out of control and raped a girl. The facts show something quite different. Your perception of any issue is guided in large part to your initial gut reaction. Once you get some more information on it shouldn't you make an adjustment to your perception based on the newly acquired information? You possess this ability and are showing so by the statements you have made in your post. Things aren't what you thought they were as far as the game buyouts and you are surprised by that. I am sure that by surprised you mean that with the new information your outlook on the issue is now different.

The contracts were honored. There was a buyout in those contracts and the schools that were bought out cashed checks thus fulfilling the contracts. Was this perfect? I would say no but the fact is the schools got a check and were then able to go out and schedule another game for their home crowd and keep the money that they bargained for fair and square with U of M. It did not put those schools in a good position and I wish it hadn't happened those couple of times but acting like the schools didn't have a game in place of the UM game is not accurate. I don't know what line of work you are in but for analogy sake let's say you were in sales at a local level. You suddenly have a good year or two and you get a big raise and other perks from the company you are working for. If another company were to come along and offer to double your salary will your honor still be with the first company or will your honor lie with yourself and what is best for your family? I personally would fulfill my commitment to the company and move on to the better job as fast as I could make it happen.

I would like to thank you for having the discussion so you know a little more as to what the story is instead of just trying to make it an adversarial back and forth argument. Nothing can be learned from that type of thing. I get into a lot of arguments with local folks that have misguided information about many teams outside of the Big Sky Conference. They have many misguided ideas about why App should have been ranked where they were after losing a couple last year, or that they think the CAA wasn't that good, or why McNeese was this or that. I always bury these dolts due to the fact that I get a better perspective and much more information than they do via my discussions on this board with the fans of those teams. So thank you, for the opportunity to learn something, to all of you.

The bolded sentence is my main point. Even you as a fan want to fulfill the contract by playing not paying the school. The economics of the matter don't always allow that and we as fans get upset over that matter.

As far as the sales analogy, I don't agree with that because in sales you don't have a contract. You get an annual salary but you are expendable at any time without too much recourse from your company. To me a better analogy is with something like a radio DJ. If I had a five year contract and in year 2 someone comes and offers more money, yeah it may be better for my family and I may take the job but I personnally don't like it. If I did this a few times other employers may just stop giving me long contracts and then I could end up being expendable without any long-term security.

[Jerbearasu]

Jerbearasu:

1. Again, UM has exercised its buyout provision to get out of only two I-AA games. It also postponed playing Cal Poly. You acknowledged being surprised by this.

2. The Big Sky slipped to a no. 7 rating in 2007. However, in the prior four-year period, as well as the prior five-year period, the Big Sky was the no. 1rated conference, according to Sagarin rankings over that time period. How can anyone be saying the Big Sky is a weak conference?

3. UM's strength of schedule has been better than App St's in 3 of the past 5 years, including 2006, according to Sagarain. How can anyone be saying UM's schedule is weak? Jeez, look at Ronbo's list of teams we've played. It includes 2 games against D-II's plus No Dak St over the five-year period. If UM wanted to play a bodybag game against a top I-A every year, UM's strength of schedule would be considerably higher.

4. Fans are welcome to think what they want about Montana exercising its buyout clauses a couple times (to help pay off the deficit). However, they are not welcome to make up their own facts about strength of conference or strength of schedule.

5. Perhaps some of you need to start getting your information from sources other than certain (no nothing) posters on AGS.

I am not disagreeing with your facts but the truth is that perception is reality. When GSU was 3-8 in 2006 they were still a team you were scared to play because the perception of Georgia Southern football is really good.

I really have never been a big fan of the Sagarin ratings personnally. To me, they just depend too much on things that are outside of your control. When you schedule programs like McNeese, NDSU and Maine it raises your perception even if one of those teams were to have a bad year. Just like my Ga Southern reference from above but this past year even you have to admit that the OOC was pretty bad.

I was never trying to make a dig at Montana but if you asked most fans would classify the Big Sky as a lot like the SoCon was just a few years ago being pretty top heavy. There has really never been a contender outside of UM in the NC hunt in the past ten years.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

The bolded sentence is my main point. Even you as a fan want to fulfill the contract by playing not paying the school. The economics of the matter don't always allow that and we as fans get upset over that matter.

As far as the sales analogy, I don't agree with that because in sales you don't have a contract. You get an annual salary but you are expendable at any time without too much recourse from your company. To me a better analogy is with something like a radio DJ. If I had a five year contract and in year 2 someone comes and offers more money, yeah it may be better for my family and I may take the job but I personnally don't like it. If I did this a few times other employers may just stop giving me long contracts and then I could end up being expendable without any long-term security.

Whatever analogy works for you is fine with me. The point doesn't change...some decisions aren't cut and dried and easily made. If you have a decision that clearly will help you out then that is the decision that will be made by any person, business, or school that has any concerns with it's remaining functionality. I won't fault any entity for doing what is best for their survival and well being.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

I am not disagreeing with your facts but the truth is that perception is reality. When GSU was 3-8 in 2006 they were still a team you were scared to play because the perception of Georgia Southern football is really good.

It is up to you to change your perception when the facts dictate that. If you don't, again I will ask what can we do about it. Your perception is your reality, it is not what is really going on though.


I really have never been a big fan of the Sagarin ratings personnally. To me, they just depend too much on things that are outside of your control. When you schedule programs like McNeese, NDSU and Maine it raises your perception even if one of those teams were to have a bad year. Just like my Ga Southern reference from above but this past year even you have to admit that the OOC was pretty bad.

OK, it looks like you are discounting some of the facts due to the system that is being used (Sagarin). What criteria would you find more palatable? It is possible that our OOC doesn't look as flattering in comparison with another system so which do you suggest? I would be willing to bet that Green 26 would plug the data in and see how it comes out. We can't plug emotions into a system as they don't give very good answers in the debate because they are based on how you feel. We need to base these issues on actual performance. I may be wrong here but I do not remember the Sagarin ratings being poo-poo'd when they reflect kindly on App State.


I was never trying to make a dig at Montana but if you asked most fans would classify the Big Sky as a lot like the SoCon was just a few years ago being pretty top heavy. There has really never been a contender outside of UM in the NC hunt in the past ten years.

This one I can agree with you on. You have to be honest with yourself as far as the Big Sky teams that you have face in the last few years. They were more challenging than you thought they would be. If you were surprised by the fact that they were not pushovers then that means that your perception was wrong. If this is the case you should let substance win out over perception.

[Proud Griz Man]

Stupid rookie coach Bobby Hauck gets a 20 somethin' point lead with our 2nd string QB at half. Ochs never played in the NDSU game. Then in the 2nd half he takes his foot off the gas and starts putting in the scubs. By the time he realizes what he has done NDSU has caught us and has all the momentum.

Worst Coaching job in a game I have ever seen. Hauck's first game ever.

Actually, I believe the Grizzlies played at Maine his first game.

8/30/2003 @ Maine (Orono) 4:00 PM MT W 30-20
9/6/2003 North Dakota State 1:05 PM MT L 24-25
9/13/2003 Sam Houston State 1:05 PM MT W 38-14
9/20/2003 OPEN
9/27/2003 Idaho 1:07 PM MT W 41-28
10/4/2003 Cal Poly (Homecoming) 1:05 PM MT W 17-14
10/11/2003 Weber State * 1:05 PM MT W 12-7
10/18/2003 @ Idaho State * 2:05 PM MT L 40-43
10/25/2003 Portland State * 12:35 PM MT W 42-14
11/1/2003 @ Northern Arizona * 3:35 PM MT W 59-21
11/8/2003 @ Sacramento State * 7:05 PM MT W 26-0
11/15/2003 Eastern Washington * 12:05 PM MT W 41-10
11/22/2003 @ Montana State (103rd) * 12:05 PM MT L 20-27
11/29/2003 I-AA Playoffs First Round vs. Western Illinois # L 40-43

Oh, and for the record:
I like Bobby Hauck. I support him. I don't agree with all his methods, or all his decisions. I am glad my alma mater has him as HC. UM has a good program, that graduates most kids on time, most are good citizens, most are really good players, and we have a fairly nice stadium. xthumbsupx A fall saturday in Missoula is great, and few other options compete in my opinion.

Those of you complaining, are entitled to your opinions. I think many of you are needing some of this:

http://www.preparationh.com/images/Product_Ointment_12.jpg

xlolx xlolx xrotatehx xrotatehx xlolx xlolx xnodx xnodx

[Green26]

Jerbearasu:

1. "Perception is reality"? Are you kidding me? So, if you or non-Big Sky fans perceive the Big Sky to be weak, or UM to play a weak schedule each year, then it is weak? That seems like a dumb comment.

2. I don't understand the comment about someone being afraid to play GSU in '06. Is that just a hypothetical?

3. Except for '07, Sagarin rated the Big Sky conference above the Southern Conference in every year from '99 - '06. I just checked my old stats. In '07, the SoCon was ranked no. 1. The SoCon is ranked no. 4 in the 5 and 8-years periods from '03 - '07 and '99 - '07.

4. The Sagarin is what it is. Feel free to use another comparative system. I would take Sagarin over the opinions and perceptions of AGS posters.

5. East Washington has been capable of going deep in the playoffs in several years, including last year. EWU came within a few points of App St last year. EWU knocked off no. 1 seed So Ill a few years ago. NAU and Montana St have had pretty good teams in a few years. MSU beat Furman in '06.

6. I hope your realize that I am not intending to pick on you at all. I'm fine with your comments. However, I also enjoy hitting some of the cream puffs out of the ballpark.

[Tod]

Jerbearasu:

1. "Perception is reality"? Are you kidding me? So, if you or non-Big Sky fans perceive the Big Sky to be weak, or UM to play a weak schedule each year, then it is weak? That seems like a dumb comment.

2. I don't understand the comment about someone being afraid to play GSU in '06. Is that just a hypothetical?

3. Except for '07, Sagarin rated the Big Sky conference above the Southern Conference in every year from '99 - '06. I just checked my old stats. In '07, the SoCon was ranked no. 1. The SoCon is ranked no. 4 in the 5 and 8-years periods from '03 - '07 and '99 - '07.

4. The Sagarin is what it is. Feel free to use another comparative system. I would take Sagarin over the opinions and perceptions of AGS posters.

5. East Washington has been capable of going deep in the playoffs in several years, including last year. EWU came within a few points of App St last year. EWU knocked off no. 1 seed So Ill a few years ago. NAU and Montana St have had pretty good teams in a few years. MSU beat Furman in '06.

6. I hope your realize that I am not intending to pick on you at all. I'm fine with your comments. However, I also enjoy hitting some of the cream puffs out of the ballpark.

I think was Jerbearasu meant was; "Things perceived as real are real in their affects".

Some perceive the Montana program to be less than honorable, though not dishonorable. Unfortunately, killing that perception is difficult, because many want that perception, and nothing you or I say will change that.

:( :(

[Jerbearasu]

I hope your realize that I am not intending to pick on you at all. I'm fine with your comments. However, I also enjoy hitting some of the cream puffs out of the ballpark.

I know you aren't picking on me and I am willing to listen to people's perspectives on this issue. I like the top programs (ie: Montana, YSU, GSU, FU, etc) being on top and having people look up to them. I think if you would ask most App fans who they'd want to face in the championship the majority of us would say Montana because Montana is perceived to be a juggernaut in our division even in the years that they weren't supposed to be top dog.

Your #2 point about GSU that I didn't state clearly was supposed to be an analogy.

I think right now ASU's fan base has a bad reputation. I think people view us as cocky jerks that think we are untouchable even though we hadn't reached the championship until recently. I think that is partly true because you will always have the arrogant fans coming out when things are going well but they disappear as soon as the roller coaster is in its valley. The truth is that most of the fans are good but the perception is something else. Hope I made sense with this. It's 3 AM here and I'm not the most sober person in the world...

[Green26]

J,

I have noticed more of the cocky-fan type posters from ASU in the last year or two (and it reminds me of what happened to some Griz fans over time), but I still have a very positive view of the ASU fan base. I like Delaware and (some) McNeese fans too. ASU has alot to be excited about in the past 3 years, and I assume prospects for the future are very bright. I hope most of your fans are enjoying the ride, and not yet picking at the success (like some Griz fans started doing to their program over the years).

Both on AGS and egriz, there are some very knowledgeable and reasonable ASU posters. I particularly like a couple who post on egriz from time to time.

Thanks for the discussion. You were a good sport.