Lafayette adopting new financial aid policy

[Franks Tanks]

http://www.lafayette.edu/news.php/view/11885/

Eliminating loans for students from families with < 100k in annual income. Good news!

[Lehigh Football Nation]

So the first domino falls in the PL aid race, following the Ivy League's lead. Watch for Lehigh to make a similar announcement very soon. My bet? By next week.

[Franks Tanks]

So the first domino falls in the PL aid race, following the Ivy League's lead. Watch for Lehigh to make a similar announcement very soon. My bet? By next week.

I would bet Lehigh, Colgate, Holy Cross and Bucknell may have very similar policies in the works.

[MplsBison]

So what does that actually mean?


Students who are admitted and their families make less than 100k (is that before or after taxes?) now won't be allowed to accept Stafford Loans?



How are they going to make up for what the Pell Grant doesn't cover?

[danefan]

I would bet Lehigh, Colgate, Holy Cross and Bucknell may have very similar policies in the works.


Then what happens to G-town?

They are going to fall even further down the line.

[danefan]

So what does that actually mean?


Students who are admitted and their families make less than 100k (is that before or after taxes?) now won't be allowed to accept Stafford Loans?



How are they going to make up for what the Pell Grant doesn't cover?


with their HUGE endowments.

Make less then $100K and your student loans will be offset with grants.

Right?

[MplsBison]

Grants from where?


Obviously the Pell Grant won't cover the full financial need.

[danefan]

Grants from where?


Obviously the Pell Grant won't cover the full financial need.

The way I understand it the grants come from the schools endowments.

[Franks Tanks]

So what does that actually mean?


Students who are admitted and their families make less than 100k (is that before or after taxes?) now won't be allowed to accept Stafford Loans?



How are they going to make up for what the Pell Grant doesn't cover?

Im not privy to any other details than this release. It basically just means more financial aid to students from families of less than 100k,. In the past in aid packages they would say well you are 5k short get a loan, now the school is pledging aid to cover that. Not really sure any other details

[Franks Tanks]

with their HUGE endowments.

Make less then $100K and your student loans will be offset with grants.

Right?

Correct --many schools have larger endowments than Lafayette, but our endowment to student ratio is very high considering the small size of the school.

[RAMS83]

Does this help athletic recruiting? As long as your family makes less than 100k - you are not responsible to pay any additional monies? Does that translate to - we want you to play football here at Lafayette and as long as your folks make less than 100k - you can come to school here for free (similar athletic scholarship). sorry this whole aid thing is still a bit confusing to me

[Franks Tanks]

Does this help athletic recruiting? As long as your family makes less than 100k - you are not responsible to pay any additional monies? Does that translate to - we want you to play football here at Lafayette and as long as your folks make less than 100k - you can come to school here for free (similar athletic scholarship). sorry this whole aid thing is still a bit confusing to me

In our "need based aid" world of the Patriot League this will mean in a nutshell that potentially even a recruited athlete will pay less to go to school. Athletically it helps us keep pace, somewhat, with the Ivies.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Does this help athletic recruiting? As long as your family makes less than 100k - you are not responsible to pay any additional monies? Does that translate to - we want you to play football here at Lafayette and as long as your folks make less than 100k - you can come to school here for free (similar athletic scholarship). sorry this whole aid thing is still a bit confusing to me

With non-revenue sports, the answer is yes. If you play men's soccer and your family makes under $100K a year, you were never likely to get scholarship money. Now if you do, your financial aid basically will all come in the form of work study and grant instead of having a loan portion.

With football, it's less clear. Schools already offer grants instead of loans to a lot of kids with demonstrated need.

[Franks Tanks]

With non-revenue sports, the answer is yes. If you play men's soccer and your family makes under $100K a year, you were never likely to get scholarship money. Now if you do, your financial aid basically will all come in the form of work study and grant instead of having a loan portion.

With football, it's less clear. Schools already offer grants instead of loans to a lot of kids with demonstrated need.

True-- I guess it still remains to be seen if these policies will result in any additional actual aid to football recruits

[ngineer]

So the first domino falls in the PL aid race, following the Ivy League's lead. Watch for Lehigh to make a similar announcement very soon. My bet? By next week.

Surprised you didn't mention in LFN about Lehigh's policy change LAST WEEK. Was on the front page of the Morning Call. Not sure it is exactly the same as LC's...may be limited to $75k or below, but there may be permutations. So Lafayette is reacting to Lehigh's move, not the other way.

[DFW HOYA]

Then what happens to G-town?


Georgetown can't afford to offer that kind of money.

[danefan]

Georgetown can't afford to offer that kind of money.

What does that mean for a program already having trouble competing? A move to the PFL for football? Probalby far fetched, but how long will a university allow its football to live in obscurity before it moves either to another conference or, god forbid, says goodbye altogether?

[Lehigh74]

So the first domino falls in the PL aid race, following the Ivy League's lead. Watch for Lehigh to make a similar announcement very soon. My bet? By next week.

You're two weeks late. The announcement was posted on the Lehigh website on March 13, 2008. Here's the link:

ttp://www3.lehigh.edu/News/V2news_story.asp?iNewsID=2654&strBack=&#37;2Fdefault%2Easp

[carney2]

Listen closely. Do you hear it?

A drop in the bucket.

[DFW HOYA]

What does that mean for a program already having trouble competing? A move to the PFL for football? Probalby far fetched, but how long will a university allow its football to live in obscurity before it moves either to another conference or, god forbid, says goodbye altogether?

Georgetown has been playing football since 1887 (or 1881, or even 1874, depending on the source). It is not interested in the Pioneer.

Financial issues affect not just sports but the school as a whole, and no one is saying Georgetown ought not compete there, either. No school in the PL competes across the board against H-Y-P and the Ancient Eight as Georgetown does for students at large, so it's a larger issue when you're battling for students getting much better offers at Penn or Brown.

The PL isn't that big a tent. If Lafayette wants to price Fordham and Georgetown out of the market, they do so at their own risk.

[Franks Tanks]

Georgetown has been playing football since 1887 (or 1881, or even 1874, depending on the source). It is not interested in the Pioneer.

Financial issues affect not just sports but the school as a whole, and no one is saying Georgetown ought not compete there, either. No school in the PL competes across the board against H-Y-P and the Ancient Eight as Georgetown does for students at large, so it's a larger issue when you're battling for students getting much better offers at Penn or Brown.

The PL isn't that big a tent. If Lafayette wants to price Fordham and Georgetown out of the market, they do so at their own risk.

This policy may have an effect on PL football, but specifically it was more of what was needed to continue to attract top level students in light of similar policies being instituted by nearly all of our competitors

[LBPop]

If I completely understand this...and that's a longshot, this policy will allow Lafayette to throw more money at the kids whose familys earn more than $100K, but who still qualify for financial aid. Here's my thinking:

Currently in the PL they use the same system (ostensibly) as the Ivies to compute financial need. The financial aid awarded can be in the form of loans, grants or workships. In the PL (unlike the Ivies) the football program can "buy out" the loan and workship portion using their own resources. That's where Georgetown has been at a disadvantage because the program has the least amount of money in the league.

So, it appears that for football players whose parents earn less than $100K, the school will grant all the aid in the form of scholarships. Thus for those players, the Lafayette football program won't have to tap into their "buy out" pool of money for them. And that would likely increase the amount available for buying out the loans for the kids from the $100K+ families.

[DC 'gater]

In our "need based aid" world of the Patriot League this will mean in a nutshell that potentially even a recruited athlete will pay less to go to school. Athletically it helps us keep pace, somewhat, with the Ivies.

Hasn't this always been the case with athletics? That was part of the deal when I was recruited (1987). No Loans and no work/study. Everything my family qualified for was a grant in aid.

[Franks Tanks]

Hasn't this always been the case with athletics? That was part of the deal when I was recruited (1987). No Loans and no work/study. Everything my family qualified for was a grant in aid.

True, but we may be able to give more to more kids. Say the football team right now has x amount of aid to give to athletes. Maybe they use up that money on 20 kids and right now recruit 10 more kids who are "walk-ons" and arent getting aid. This will allow some of those kids without aid to now potentially afford and attend the school. Not sure how plausible this is just throwing it out there as a possible benefit to athletics

[Franks Tanks]

If I completely understand this...and that's a longshot, this policy will allow Lafayette to throw more money at the kids whose familys earn more than $100K, but who still qualify for financial aid. Here's my thinking:

Currently in the PL they use the same system (ostensibly) as the Ivies to compute financial need. The financial aid awarded can be in the form of loans, grants or workships. In the PL (unlike the Ivies) the football program can "buy out" the loan and workship portion using their own resources. That's where Georgetown has been at a disadvantage because the program has the least amount of money in the league.

So, it appears that for football players whose parents earn less than $100K, the school will grant all the aid in the form of scholarships. Thus for those players, the Lafayette football program won't have to tap into their "buy out" pool of money for them. And that would likely increase the amount available for buying out the loans for the kids from the $100K+ families.

Well said--this is my understanding as well, but not sure we are 100% accurate

[MplsBison]

I have a question:

how does the NCAA differentiate between money that is counted toward the equivalency limit and money that isn't?




So, for example, lets say that the Lafayette general endowment is giving grants to 90 players on the team that would total 30 full ride scholarships worth of money. Then the Lafayette athletic department provides grants to 70 players that would total 50 full ride scholarships worth of money.


Would that make Lafayette's equivalencies 50 or 80, according to the NCAA?



What about federal money?

Say that 40 Lafayette players receive federal pell grants that would total 10 full ride scholarships worth of money. Where does that fit in?

[Franks Tanks]

I have a question:

how does the NCAA differentiate between money that is counted toward the equivalency limit and money that isn't?




So, for example, lets say that the Lafayette general endowment is giving grants to 90 players on the team that would total 30 full ride scholarships worth of money. Then the Lafayette athletic department provides grants to 70 players that would total 50 full ride scholarships worth of money.


Would that make Lafayette's equivalencies 50 or 80, according to the NCAA?



What about federal money?

Say that 40 Lafayette players receive federal pell grants that would total 10 full ride scholarships worth of money. Where does that fit in?

Im not completely sure, but I think they count whatever aid the school gave to athletes as equivalincies and the pell grants for example are not counted.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

First of all, everyone's right: Lehigh did propose something in regards to financial aid a week before. And yes, I did miss it.

Second of all, Lehigh's and Lafayette's programs are in essence the same program.

Third, there is less to this than meets the eye.

For any student whose family is making less than $50,000, there are no more loans for them. (Hard to believe that this group of students ever had to pay anything in the first place, athlete or no.)

For families making $50K to $100K a year (most of us), the amount of "loan portion" for financial aid packages is capped at $3,000 per year for Lehigh, $2,500 for Lafayette. However, Lehigh has expanded work-study in paying off the loans as well, so essentially this appears to be a wash.

This is similar to what Davidson has done for years in terms of aid, incidentally. They had capped everyone's loan portion at a maximum at $3,000, I believe. Last year, they eliminated that altogether and made it 100% grant.

The "unknown unknown" here is how much loan portion was available before this year in financial aid for students. For football players, certainly some grants were available - how much is unclear.

For football, most likely there will be a reduction in the loan numbers across sports that are "paid" by grants. If you had (say) 30 students with grants-in-aid and there were $5,000 per year in grants and that's now $3,000, that's not insignificant. On the other hand, it's not going to wreck the system either, and you're just dipping in another "community" pot to get the money to pay the aid.

This is nothing like what Harvard is doing. They are eliminating loans completely up to families that make $100,000, while limiting the damage to 10% of income above that. Can the Ivy League survive in the face of that type of policy? Only H-Y-P can realistically afford it. This is the debate facing that league.

Of course, athletics are not why the Harvard, the Ivy League and Patriot Leagues would do it. They're doing it to make education more affordable for everyone, not just athletes. The principle is great: making college more affordable for everyone. It's up to the leagues to figure out how to make athletics work in this environment.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I tried to weigh in on this somewhat on the blog.

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com

[ngineer]

This policy may have an effect on PL football, but specifically it was more of what was needed to continue to attract top level students in light of similar policies being instituted by nearly all of our competitors

Agreed. I don't see this as having much of an impact on football recruiting.

[Franks Tanks]

Conicidentially Deandre Morrow , one of our tailbacks, was interviewed by the morning call today and asked about the new policy. He said that he had to take out a small loan this year, and hopes he wont have to do that next year with this policy. So it may have a small effect on some athletes by eliminating 2-3 grand in loans a year. Dont think this really gives us much of a competitive advantage however

[carney2]

Does anyone else see this as a potential roadblock to true athletic scholarships for football?

"We have now done something, so football scholarships are no longer a burning issue. Besides, we have done our version of the 'Ivy way,' and have been true to our founding principles. Let's wait a [long] while and see how this plays out."

Frankly, I don't see a whole lot of good coming out of this. It really isn't enough to make a huge difference when you put it up against what some of the Ivys have announced, and up against free ride athletic scholarships. Perhaps it plays well enough for a kid or two who was considering the NEC, but pretty well assures that we will stay near the bottom of the true FCS pecking order.

Many of these schools are now priced in the mid to upper $40,000 range and this is, as I said earlier, a drop in the bucket.

[DFW HOYA]

Many of these schools are now priced in the mid to upper $40,000 range and this is, as I said earlier, a drop in the bucket.

Perhaps, but some schools have a much bigger bucket.

The core PL schools are more stable financially, do not subsidize post-graduate perograms, and are generally in a better position to offer generous undergraduate grants than their associate brethren.

Endowment per FTE
====================
1. Lafayette $305.5K
2. Colgate $253.2K
3. Holy Cross $233.6K
4. Bucknell $168.5K
5. Lehigh $158.7K
...
6. Georgetown $74.8K
7. Fordham $28.4K

[carney2]

Perhaps, but some schools have a much bigger bucket.

The core PL schools are more stable financially, do not subsidize post-graduate perograms, and are generally in a better position to offer generous undergraduate grants than their associate brethren.

Endowment per FTE
====================
1. Lafayette $305.5K
2. Colgate $253.2K
3. Holy Cross $233.6K
4. Bucknell $168.5K
5. Lehigh $158.7K
...
6. Georgetown $74.8K
7. Fordham $28.4K

Excellent point. It underscores how the Patriot League announcements, leaking out one by one, are not unlike the Ivy situation where Harvard, Yale and Princeton used their vastly superior resources to stake out individual positions to the potential detriment of the others. At the very least, the others are forced to scramble to stake out some sort of ground where they are perceived as "doing something."

I realize that all of these announcements are "universal" in that they are intended to cover all applicants and not just athletes. This, however, is a football board and you will have to pardon me if I focus my comments to this little piece of the academic pie. The Patriot League needs to get proactive sooner rather than later to level out the playing field here. Athletic grants in aid for football will not solve all of the problems, both real and imagined, but it appears to be about as level as we can get at this point.