Fighting Sioux Told To Change Name

[GeauxLions94]

Give 'em hell UND! Love the comment from Donna Brown near the end of the article.

NCAA Tells North Dakota To Get New Nickname (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/other/2005-09-28-ncaa-und-rejection_x.htm?POE=SPOISVA)

[Gil Dobie]

Here is a link to what the Sioux fans are saying.

SiouxSports.com (http://siouxsports.com/forums/index.php?showforum=2)

[89Hen]

That would suck if it were my school. We need to have a rename UND contest. How about the Scalpers?

http://www.amren.com/986issue/scalped.gif

[catbob]

UND Savages. Has a nice ring to it.

Or if you want something that will offend nobody, how about:
UND Tumbleweeds

[catbob]

Or to make matters worse, they could be the UND Fighting Cavalry!

[blur2005]

Honestly, though I'm all for political correctness, this is getting ridiculous. I will say that the fact the Sioux aren't big fans of the nickname is troublesome, which might make this move okay, but really, when does political correctness when it comes to team nicknames end? I mean, we still have the Indians and Braves in baseball, the Redskins in football. People have complained about that for years, but nothing ever happens. So, likewise, people need to give it a rest about college sports nicknames. I wouldn't be offended if some team was nicknames Whities, or White Crackers. I think that would be funny. Anyway, the representations of Native Americans in sports are far from negative: the Fighting Sioux. It's just gotten out of hand, and the NCAA is horribly hypocritical anyway, as they let Florida State and some others off, while continuing to attack various other schools for this. Enough already.

[89Hen]

Or to make matters worse, they could be the UND Fighting Cavalry!
UND Reservations

[WYOBISONMAN]

I actually agree with the NCAA on this one. The nickname has little to no support among the tribes in North Dakota. Further, a survey of UNDs own Indian students found that 67% of them opposed the nickname. I think it is reasonable to accord them some respect by not using thier race as a nickname. Here is the link to a very good article by Sports Illustrated columnist Seth Davis that discussed why the NCAA ruling against UND is the right way to go.

Sports Illustrated Column (http://sports.yahoo.com/ncaab/news;_ylt=AuH_sFdR6aS3ex1RHIU6s905nYcB?slug=cnnsi-loudandclear&prov=cnnsi&type=lgns)

[henfan]

Personally, I can see how "Fighting Sioux" could be construed as offensive. There's no good reason though why "Sioux" shouldn't be OK.

Ah, heck, just change the name to "Fight 'n' Sue", adopt an attorney mascot and be done with it.

[WYOBISONMAN]

Personally, I can see how "Fighting Sioux" could be construed as offensive. There's no good reason though why "Sioux" shouldn't be OK.

Ah, heck, just change the name to "Fight 'n' Sue", adopt an attorney mascot and be done with it.

As a Bison fan.....I kinda like "Fight 'n' Sue" or perhaps just the "Susans"..... :D

[blur2005]

How 'bout the North Dakota Dragoons...their sort of like cavalry...and it's alliterative.

[GrizFoo]

http://www.und.edu/president/html/statements/NCAAletter.html

[jimbo65]

If the "Fightin Sioux" is not politically correct how about the Lazy Susans.

Apparently the NCAA values the Sioux more than the Irish or are they going to tell Notre Dame to scrap the Fighting Irish?

[WYOBISONMAN]

To be honest....most of the hostile and abusive use of the name has come from opposing fans (myself not excluded). When I was in undergrad school we all would wear shirts to the UND/NDSU games that said "Sioux Suck" on them and had a picture on an indian underneath a Bison....sucking.....

Here is another image that was seen at many UND/NDSU games....

http://wat.midco.net/traci20011/insider/HTML/images/centuryofsucking.gif

UND has tried to ban such things, but it is difficult to police, especially with opposing fans.

[WestRiverBison]

In a cost saving move, they need only drop the I and O from the Sioux name. This sums up UND quite well :D

[BETCHGRIZ]

Re name them the "Fighting Sue's" Perhaps the hemet logo could be a purse.

[Husky Alum]

This just in...

The American Bar Association has formally petitioned the NCAA to request that Brandeis University (located outside of Boston) change its nickname from the "Judges".

The ABA is opposed to the use of the name as Brandeis' athletic teams have "performed poorly on the field and do not represent the interests of the judicial bar in America. Brandeis loses more than they win, and judges are supposed to be impartial. The utilization of this nickname, while honoring Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis, is not consistent with the message we want to send about judges in America," said ABA representative Howie Cheatem.

On a personal note, as a jew, I'm opposed with anything to do with Ralph, so the more agony at UND the better. They made a deal with the devil, so let them reap the pains of it.

[ChickenMan]

http://www.north-america.de/images/x13.jpg


Welcome to the new Amerika... home of the brave and land of the politically correct...

[Ivytalk]

Personally, I can see how "Fighting Sioux" could be construed as offensive. There's no good reason though why "Sioux" shouldn't be OK.

Ah, heck, just change the name to "Fight 'n' Sue", adopt an attorney mascot and be done with it.

Just Sioux the bastards! :D

[bison95]

Sue Who? :confused:

[ChickenMan]

This just in...

http://dekkermckeever.tripod.com/hcsword.gif


Al Qaeda has petitioned the NCAA to have Holy Cross remove 'CRUSADERS' as their nickname. A spokesperson for Osama bin Laden reports that the term 'Crusader' is highly offensive to many in the Muslim world.

[TheValleyRaider]

Seriously, could someone actually explain to me how North Dakota calling themselves the "Fighting Sioux" is really offensive? I've just never understood how that was the case. I mean, should I be offended as a Protestant that Syracuse calls itself the Orange? Really, this sounds rediculous because I haven't heard anything that remotely makes sense on the issue.

[Husky Alum]

Does ANYTHING the NCAA does make sense???

There's no I-A playoff because they don't want the players "Missing class" in December for the playoffs, yet the basketball teams can do it for the whole month of March, and every other division can do it as well.

Funny, but most classes end and exams are done the week before X-Mas, so what are we talking, an extra week or two while the players are in class?

A kid can throw a touchdown pass before he takes a class, and can miss the whole month of March to play in the basketball tournament, but he can't partake in a football tournament??? Please.

Funny, when I worked with the basketball team at NU, we played Carolina in the First Round in Syracuse during exam week in March.

The NCAA provided a proctor for all exams to be taken. The professors sent the exam to the proctor, the proctor gave the exam within the proscribed time limits, and sent the exam back to the professor. Worked pretty well, except that my Advanced Accounting class never had 6 cheerleaders from UCLA, and 12 from Mississippi State in it to distract me. ;)

[WYOBISONMAN]

Seriously, could someone actually explain to me how North Dakota calling themselves the "Fighting Sioux" is really offensive? I've just never understood how that was the case. I mean, should I be offended as a Protestant that Syracuse calls itself the Orange? Really, this sounds rediculous because I haven't heard anything that remotely makes sense on the issue.

Check out my previous post and read the SI article I refered to. It puts the argument far more eloquently than I can....

[Hansel]

siouxage

[Gil Dobie]

Originally the natives called it "les grande fourche".

The name could be changed to UND Grande Fourchers :) :D ;)

[Bub]

Perhaps if UND had or establishes the same relationship with the Sioux that Florida State has with the Seminoles they wouldn't be having this problem?

[WYOBISONMAN]

Perhaps if UND had or establishes the same relationship with the Sioux that Florida State has with the Seminoles they wouldn't be having this problem?

Right on....that is the truth....

[Baldy]

How about the UND Fighting Casino Owners? :D

[TheValleyRaider]

Check out my previous post and read the SI article I refered to. It puts the argument far more eloquently than I can....

I've read the SI article, and I'm not really convinced. It's one thing for someone to say they are offended, and call something racist, but I really don't see how North Dakota calling itself the "Fighting Sioux" is the promotion of some racist agenda or holds Indians down in some fashion. For that matter, I don't see how "Fighting Sioux" or "Seminoles" or "Utes" or whatever, is analogous to calling a team "White Crackers" or "N******". It's not even as if the logo is a characterization or cartoony image (a la the Cleveland Indians). It looks more realistic, IMO, than NDSU's bison logo. And, honestly, I think this whole argument is people with too much time on their hands taking something way too seriously. It's a game, for crying out loud, why should we care what the teams are called.

Just my :twocents:

[bisonguy]

Perhaps if UND had or establishes the same relationship with the Sioux that Florida State has with the Seminoles they wouldn't be having this problem?

They already tried that. Supposedly, one of the tribes took an official neutral stance, neither condemning nor approving the nickname, in exchange for some concessions to be made by UND to the tribe. UND officials never held up their part of the bargain. This is the same tribe that the UND president said supported the nickname.

[WYOBISONMAN]

They already tried that. Supposedly, one of the tribes took an official neutral stance, neither condemning nor approving the nickname, in exchange for some concessions to be made by UND to the tribe. UND officials never held up their part of the bargain. This is the same tribe that the UND president said supported the nickname.


In the opinions of many of us from North Dakota the current President of UND has some major credibility issues.....

[ChickenMan]

In the opinions of many of us from North Dakota the current President of UND has some major credibility issues.....


maybe it's the 'President' rather than the name that needs to be changed... ;)

[colgate13]

It's probably no surprise to folks here, but I'm completely in favour of the NCAA here. It is one thing to use the name of a people as a nickname/mascot IF the people are OK with it. If they are not, then it is flat out not OK.

The Sioux are actually not the 'Sioux'. They are the Lakota (and Dakota and Nakoda) tribes. It is widely accepted that the history of the name 'Sioux' is itself derogatory; it has just continued to be used.

These people were subjected to genocide, had one of their principle sources of food taken away (Bison) and had their sacred land spoiled by the U.S. Government (the Black Hills) even after a treaty was signed exempting the Black Hills from settlement EVER. That is, until gold was found there.

So they're supposed to be 'OK' when the local, state run university chooses to use an offensive name to of their tribe and a silly rendition of a Lakota warrior just because it's "Fighting" or because it's supposed to honor them? Honor them by respecting their wishes and move on.

Bury my heart at Wounded Knee.

[Tod]

It's probably no surprise to folks here, but I'm completely in favour of the NCAA here. It is one thing to use the name of a people as a nickname/mascot IF the people are OK with it. If they are not, then it is flat out not OK.

The Sioux are actually not the 'Sioux'. They are the Lakota (and Dakota and Nakoda) tribes. It is widely accepted that the history of the name 'Sioux' is itself derogatory; it has just continued to be used.

These people were subjected to genocide, had one of their principle sources of food taken away (Bison) and had their sacred land spoiled by the U.S. Government (the Black Hills) even after a treaty was signed exempting the Black Hills from settlement EVER. That is, until gold was found there.

So they're supposed to be 'OK' when the local, state run university chooses to use an offensive name to of their tribe and a silly rendition of a Lakota warrior just because it's "Fighting" or because it's supposed to honor them? Honor them by respecting their wishes and move on.

Bury my heart at Wounded Knee.


Right on. :nod: :nod: :nod:

[TheValleyRaider]

The Sioux are actually not the 'Sioux'. They are the Lakota (and Dakota and Nakoda) tribes. It is widely accepted that the history of the name 'Sioux' is itself derogatory; it has just continued to be used.

Now, that's a little different. I had been under the impression that Sioux was simply the name of the tribe. No one had brought this point to my attention until now. With this in mind, I'll have to reconsider with a slightly different perspective.

I guess it takes a pair of Colgate men to ask the good questions and give the good answers, eh 13? :nod: ;)

[WYOBISONMAN]

These people were subjected to genocide, had one of their principle sources of food taken away (Bison)

Now just a minute here.......the BISON were never a food source for UND.....further more, we were not taken away.....we move up a division and the Sioux were scare to move up.................and thats the rest of the story.......Good Day. ;) ;) :D

[Gil Dobie]

It's probably no surprise to folks here, but I'm completely in favour of the NCAA here. It is one thing to use the name of a people as a nickname/mascot IF the people are OK with it. If they are not, then it is flat out not OK.
The above part is not debatable, they do not have support.


The Sioux are actually not the 'Sioux'. They are the Lakota (and Dakota and Nakoda) tribes. It is widely accepted that the history of the name 'Sioux' is itself derogatory; it has just continued to be used.

The derogatory meaning is debatable.

Sioux Link (http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/Sioux)

The name Sioux was created by the Canadian French, who abbreviated the Algonquin compound Nadou鳳ioux (from nadowe ("Iroquois") plus siu ("snake"/the massasauga rattler)), by which a neighboring Ojibwa tribe, or the Ottawa, referred to the Dakota to the west and south. This term is popularly interpreted as an insult but it could refer to a time when the Dakota people, like other southeastern tribes, were known to revere serpents (see Serpent Mounds in Ohio, feathered serpent, water serpents - unktehi/uktena, etc.) Today many of the tribes continue to officially call themselves 'Sioux' which the Federal Government of the United States applied to all Dakota/Lakota/Nakoda people in the 19th and 20th centuries.

The Dakota, Lakota and Nakoda have names for their own subdivisions. The "Santee" received this name from camping for long periods in a place where they collected stone for making knives. The "Yankton" received this name which meant people from the villages of far away. The "Tetonwan" were known as people who moved west with the coming of the horse to live and hunt buffalo on the prairie. From these three principal groups, came seven sub-tribes.

[Bub]

Wow, a lot of information, even for a guy who considers himself the king of worthless information.

I'm with the "gate boys", if the tribes aren't for it, then debate over. New name, "The Fighting Sharptails", in reference to the sharptail grouse, a denizen of the great plains, whom the natives of the great plains used as a model for some of their dances.


BTW, I like the UND campus and the city of Grand Forks. Of course I was there in August, not January. :)

[Gil Dobie]

Wow, a lot of information, even for a guy who considers himself the king of worthless information.

I'm with the "gate boys", if the tribes aren't for it, then debate over. New name, "The Fighting Sharptails", in reference to the sharptail grouse, a denizen of the great plains, whom the natives of the great plains used as a model for some of their dances.


BTW, I like the UND campus and the city of Grand Forks. Of course I was there in August, not January. :)

I am with the 'gaiters too, if you don't have support, the NC$$ wins.

[89Hen]

Now just a minute here.......the BISON were never a food source for UND.....further more, we were not taken away.....we move up a division and the Sioux were scare to move up.................and thats the rest of the story.......Good Day. ;) ;) :D
:lmao: :beerchug: Nice post Bisonman!

[89Hen]

BTW, where is buckp when you need him?! Isn't he part Sioux? I always forget if he is or isn't.

[AmsterBison]

Some quotes from involved parties:

From the Grand Forks Herald - they ask the question that I've been dying to ask - of course, President Kupchella will never acknowledge that he had ever decided to drop the nickname:

"Why is Kupchella [The President of UND] so adamantly opposed to the NCAA's decision when indications were that he was going to drop the Sioux nickname several years ago before the Higher Ed Board made the decision.[?]"

-------

From the Fargo Forum from a typical nickname supporter as he chastises the real Sioux for opposing the nickname (I've lost count of how many times I've heard this same argument from pro-nickname supporters, including UND administrators, who in the very next breath claim to be honoring the Sioux):

"Teen pregnancies, drug and alcohol problems, weight problems, crime, etc., and the Sioux are worried about some goofy nickname? Unbelievable. I’m not being insensitive or racist. I’m just being realistic."

You know, replace "the Sioux" with "UND graduates" or "Grand Forks residents", and nickname supports might have a point :)

[Hansel]

whioux?

[AZGrizFan]

Wow, a lot of information, even for a guy who considers himself the king of worthless information.

I'm with the "gate boys", if the tribes aren't for it, then debate over. New name, "The Fighting Sharptails", in reference to the sharptail grouse, a denizen of the great plains, whom the natives of the great plains used as a model for some of their dances.


BTW, I like the UND campus and the city of Grand Forks. Of course I was there in August, not January. :)

Hopefully, with a name like that, UND wouldn't end up in court fighting the grouse...

[colgate13]

:lmao: :beerchug: Nice post Bisonman!

I agree. That was some funny post. xlolx