LFN: Marist, We Hardly Knew Ye

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I think the PL fans have been waiting for this one:

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com

[Go...gate]

Great discussion.

[dgreco]

love the article, I haven't read many lately, but one correction. Bentley is in Waltham which is part of the Boston Metro.

[Seawolf97]

Really good article. I never thought about the Coast Guard Academy moving up or even the Merchant Marine Academy at Kingspoint NY. Im sure their academics are pretty solid. Their athletics are D-3 which would be a quantum leap.

[Go...gate]

I still think VMI is going to be given consideration by the PL. They do not seem to be a great fit (except regionally, of course) in the Big South. Whether VMI will consider joining the conference is another question.

As far as Villanova, Richmond, W&M, etc., it will never happen, IMO. I don't see Hopkins moving up to Division I, either.

Given the direction in which the Ivy League is moving in terms of aid, etc. recruiting is going to get a great deal harder. We may see a return to a league-wide struggle to succeed outside the conference, as existed in the early-mid 1990's. I, for one, don't care to see that again.

[Husky Alum]

Before leaving the America East for the CAA, Northeastern inquired about membership to the PL and we were politely told "thanks but no thanks". While our academic profile has increased, the 100+ year reputation of being a safety school, and a 14,000 student body were cited as major inhibitors.

Bentley's a very good school, if you study accounting or finance. If you study almost anything else, you're wasting your time and money

[ngineer]

Very good article, but as I posted there, until the PL decides what it is going to do, long term, about scholarships no other decisions will be made.

[Dane96]

Great article.

The writing has been on the wall for sometime. Be pro-active or the PL will fall. Sad because of all the hard work they have put in to move up.

Times change-- the PL needs to change with it.

[carney2]

Great article.

The writing has been on the wall for sometime. Be pro-active or the PL will fall. Sad because of all the hard work they have put in to move up.

Times change-- the PL needs to change with it.

"Fall" is a bit much. There are 4 schools in the League that are joined at the hip: Bucknell, Colgate, Lafayette and Lehigh. Now, one of them could do something really stupid - it wouldn't be the first time - but as long as there are (is?) intercollegiate athletics, these four need each other and should stay together. That's a pretty stable core for a league to survive, if not thrive.

[carney2]

Nice job, LFN. When I asked you to get on this, I didn't necessarily mean today.

[TheValleyRaider]

I understand the desire for expansion. I think the League would benefit from an 8th member in Football, possibly 9th overall. I would love forward movement on the issue of scholarships.

What I don't get, however, is the constant need some people feel to grab whatever school is out there for the purposes of expansion. I've always been an advocate of taking Marist, if that were the case. It appears that it will not be, Marist now having found another home, and I'm okay with that.

Despite the mild awkwardness of having 7 members, the Patriot League is still a relatively stable conference. There are the 5 core members, plus the two affiliates who like being in the League for football, continue to say so, and I honestly have a hard time seeing them leave.

Without the real concern of a school jumping ship, I don't see the pressing need to expand. Expansion should be a secondary concern.

[DFW HOYA]

While no one mourns the MAAC, the seeds for its demise were planted in an era of inaction and protecting its own.

In the mid-1990's, the MAAC was making strides--expansion, larger crowds, even an ESPN2 game when I-AA football was still rare on national TV. There was Internet discussion that a pair of struggling PL programs, Fordham and Holy cross, were potential candidates, as well as the Eastern independents like Wagner and Monmouth. Fairfield was about to add football, while it was discussed at at least two other MAAC schools.

The MAAC leadership tacitly rejected change. To protect its core base that did not invest in football (schools like Canisius, Siena, Iona, and St. Peter's) it took a hard line against expanding financial aid, going so far as to declare St. John's and Fairfield ineligible for the MAAC title for doing so. It did not pursue expansion when other schools would have been good candidates, and thus these schools opted to form under the NEC banner instead.

So what happened? St. John's left. Georgetown left. One by one, teams left or quit and the league had no response. The league pursued a policy of treading water instead of building a lifeboat.

The PL is not the MAAC and never was. But for all the handwringing that state schools or D-II step-ups or schools south of the Mason-Dixon line aren't good fits for the PL model, or that scholarship talk can be deferred indefinitely beause it's good for relations with the Ivies may lead to a time when no one is a good fit anymore, because they've all gone elsewhere. And like the MAAC, the trajectory then becomes all too apparent.

[LUHawker]

In corporate America, many CEOs get caught up in the mergers and acquisitions game because there is a lot of activity happening around them and they feel like they need to do something, anything so that they don't look like they are sitting idle. However, many mergers are ill-conceived, poorly-timed and take focus off of their own business and strategy. I feel like we have an analagous situation here with some PL posters. I for one have not, and am not an advocate of expansion of the PL with Marist, so let me state that upfront. (Although LFN, you already know that.) I think that the PL already has a solid foundation. Would I like to see another school or two? Absolutely. But I want the league to expand with suitable choices. At this time, there doesn't appear to be many, if any, suitable candidate. So, like the CEO who is confident in his stratey and understands that when there isn't a good fit, you shouldn't force something, I think the PL is in a similar place. The League has made steps in recent years by adding schollies to other sports. It is currently working through adjustments to the Academic Index and contemplating true scholarships for football. In essence, it is working on strengthening itself organically. Knowing that conference affiliations are often in a state of flux, if it can accomplish these improvements to football, the PL will be in a solid position to take advantage of future opportunities that may not be even remotely conceivable today. It wasn't in a position a couple of years ago when Richmond was sniffing around, so hopefully the leadership has learned its lesson. At any rate, I think an approach that strengthens the league internally will yield future expansion opportunities. My personal best guess is a return of Fordham, but we'll see.

[DFW HOYA]

At any rate, I think an approach that strengthens the league internally will yield future expansion opportunities. My personal best guess is a return of Fordham, but we'll see.

Fordham is not coming back, for the same reasons Richmond alumni revolted when Bill Cooper floated the football-only concept: outside of the non-scholarship world, the PL is seen as a step back, not forward, for most programs. The perception is the league is not actively upgrading its teams across all sports and clings to the academic index when 30 other conferences do fine without it. Is the PL really going to spiral out of control without AI, or is it just another way to play nice with the Ivies?

Football may be the exception, but the PL image takes a beating around other sports. And maybe the League leadership would rather associate with an NJIT than UMass and URI, but the PL has to at least think beyond the box that they've built around themselves.

And while this is one person's opinion, but Fordham (and perhaps even Holy Cross) will be an expansion target of another league in the next few years. Then what?

[Dane96]

You are missing a very important point here. A few school leave..if that did happen...would destroy the PL. It probably wont happen, however it could.

The autobid is a whole other animal.

[ngineer]

Now that the PL gives scholarships in basketball, I'm surprised Fordham isn't interested in returning as a full fledged member. They have little chance of making the 'big dance' in the A-10, but would be a perennial challenger in the PL.

[Franks Tanks]

Fordham is not coming back, for the same reasons Richmond alumni revolted when Bill Cooper floated the football-only concept: outside of the non-scholarship world, the PL is seen as a step back, not forward, for most programs. The perception is the league is not actively upgrading its teams across all sports and clings to the academic index when 30 other conferences do fine without it. Is the PL really going to spiral out of control without AI, or is it just another way to play nice with the Ivies?

Football may be the exception, but the PL image takes a beating around other sports. And maybe the League leadership would rather associate with an NJIT than UMass and URI, but the PL has to at least think beyond the box that they've built around themselves.

And while this is one person's opinion, but Fordham (and perhaps even Holy Cross) will be an expansion target of another league in the next few years. Then what?

No one in the PL wants to associate with NJIT. A public technical university is about as far away from the core PL schools as you can get. They are terrible in basketball, have no football team, and are mediocre academic wise.

[DFW HOYA]

No one in the PL wants to associate with NJIT. A public technical university is about as far away from the core PL schools as you can get. They are terrible in basketball, have no football team, and are mediocre academic wise.

I think there's an issue worthy of discussion. No one is arguing NJIT's case, but if the PL is self-limited to northeastern Div. I liberal arts colleges of under 5,000 students that play football under the Ivy philosophy, there simply aren't enough out of them there anymore.

The MAAC was once happy with its schools, too, and didn't leverage football to its advantage. There are 6-8 strong I-AA eastern schools with football that the PL needs to be looking at, but they don't all fit the current mold.

[Franks Tanks]

I think there's an issue worthy of discussion. No one is arguing NJIT's case, but if the PL is self-limited to northeastern Div. I liberal arts colleges of under 5,000 students that play football under the Ivy philosophy, there simply aren't enough out of them there anymore.

We have 8 members in other sports--well most others-- and I think PL leadership is pretty satisfied with that. Football is the Gap where 8 will be nice, but not absolutely necessary at this point. I just dont think we have to settle for just anyone at this point. Even if we did "settle" I would be happier with a school like Monmouth over NJIT

[danefan]

I think there's an issue worthy of discussion. No one is arguing NJIT's case, but if the PL is self-limited to northeastern Div. I liberal arts colleges of under 5,000 students that play football under the Ivy philosophy, there simply aren't enough out of them there anymore.

The NESCAC.....that's about it though.

[Go...gate]

I understand the desire for expansion. I think the League would benefit from an 8th member in Football, possibly 9th overall. I would love forward movement on the issue of scholarships.

What I don't get, however, is the constant need some people feel to grab whatever school is out there for the purposes of expansion. I've always been an advocate of taking Marist, if that were the case. It appears that it will not be, Marist now having found another home, and I'm okay with that.

Despite the mild awkwardness of having 7 members, the Patriot League is still a relatively stable conference. There are the 5 core members, plus the two affiliates who like being in the League for football, continue to say so, and I honestly have a hard time seeing them leave.

Without the real concern of a school jumping ship, I don't see the pressing need to expand. Expansion should be a secondary concern.

Eight core members for all sports save FB.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I understand the desire for expansion. I think the League would benefit from an 8th member in Football, possibly 9th overall. I would love forward movement on the issue of scholarships.

What I don't get, however, is the constant need some people feel to grab whatever school is out there for the purposes of expansion. I've always been an advocate of taking Marist, if that were the case. It appears that it will not be, Marist now having found another home, and I'm okay with that.

Despite the mild awkwardness of having 7 members, the Patriot League is still a relatively stable conference. There are the 5 core members, plus the two affiliates who like being in the League for football, continue to say so, and I honestly have a hard time seeing them leave.

Without the real concern of a school jumping ship, I don't see the pressing need to expand. Expansion should be a secondary concern.

I disagree about the argument about the "stability" of the conference.

Army and Navy have FBS football programs even though they are "core" members. So what if the Big East breaks apart into two conferences and Army and Navy decide they have more in common with Rutgers, Syracuse, Louisville and the football-playing members of the Big East? Would the lure of playing in the Big East in all sports be too great?

What if Georgetown decides that football is folly, and decide to join a national non-scholarship conference in the PFL?

What if Holy Cross decides to join the A-10 for hoops?

What if an America East conference is dying for a 6th member for football, and they give Fordham an offer they can't refuse to join in all sports?

Any of these realistic hypotheticals would tear the league apart, put the football autobid in jeopardy, and some would also endanger the autobid in basketball as well.

Not all that long ago Holy Cross threatened to leave the PL over basketball scholarships. That's not a "stable" conference. The membership may not have moved much over the last eight years. But it would take only one move to cause a crisis.

That's why the Patriot League needs to expand. Insurance against disaster before something happens.

[Fordham]

Now that the PL gives scholarships in basketball, I'm surprised Fordham isn't interested in returning as a full fledged member. They have little chance of making the 'big dance' in the A-10, but would be a perennial challenger in the PL.

Unfortunately (to me), Fordham's not coming back (anytime soon at least). PL is a damaged brand in most Fordham fans' minds only because hoops is the marquee sport and the PL move is associated with decimating our program back when PL hoops was non-scholly.

Further, although hoops is having a disappointing season, we've become competitive in the A10 the past few seasons and have a very good recruiting class coming in. Given that the A10 is having an outstanding season overall and should have multiple NCAA bids, it's going to be tough to convince Fordham hoops fans that a move to the PL would be an improvement.

[Franks Tanks]

I disagree about the argument about the "stability" of the conference.

Army and Navy have FBS football programs even though they are "core" members. So what if the Big East breaks apart into two conferences and Army and Navy decide they have more in common with Rutgers, Syracuse, Louisville and the football-playing members of the Big East? Would the lure of playing in the Big East in all sports be too great?

What if Georgetown decides that football is folly, and decide to join a national non-scholarship conference in the PFL?

What if Holy Cross decides to join the A-10 for hoops?

What if an America East conference is dying for a 6th member for football, and they give Fordham an offer they can't refuse to join in all sports?

Any of these realistic hypotheticals would tear the league apart, put the football autobid in jeopardy, and some would also endanger the autobid in basketball as well.

Not all that long ago Holy Cross threatened to leave the PL over basketball scholarships. That's not a "stable" conference. The membership may not have moved much over the last eight years. But it would take only one move to cause a crisis.

That's why the Patriot League needs to expand. Insurance against disaster before something happens.


Army and Navy have trouble competing in the Patriot League in non-revenue sports, and basketball in Army's case, they will get killed in the Big East. Also remember Army's disaster that was C-USA membership, I dont think there going anywhere. The other scenarios are possibilites, but I dont think we should totally disrupt what the league is until we have to.

[Franks Tanks]

Unfortunately (to me), Fordham's not coming back (anytime soon at least). PL is a damaged brand in most Fordham fans' minds only because hoops is the marquee sport and the PL move is associated with decimating our program back when PL hoops was non-scholly.

[B]Further, although hoops is having a disappointing season,we've become competitive in the A10 the past few seasons and have a very good recruiting class coming in. Given that the A10 is having an outstanding season overall and should have multiple NCAA bids, it's going to be tough to convince Fordham hoops fans that a move to the PL would be an improvement.

cough-- 0-29.. cough, cough...





:) --dont get mad just a joke

[carney2]

Army and Navy have trouble competing in the Patriot League in non-revenue sports, and basketball in Army's case, they will get killed in the Big East. Also remember Army's disaster that was C-USA membership, I dont think there going anywhere. The other scenarios are possibilites, but I dont think we should totally disrupt what the league is until we have to.

I hate to be taking sides with...well, with one of them, but LFN is right on this one. He and DFW enumerate some very good points regarding potential problems for the Patriot League. No one of these scenarios is a high probability, but as a group they present something in the moderate risk range. Borrowing a term from an Albany poster to this thread, the League needs to get proactive on this front - and sooner, rather than later. The MAAC sat on its butt and look what happened to them.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I hate to be taking sides with...well, with one of them, but LFN is right on this one. He and DFW enumerate some very good points regarding potential problems for the Patriot League. No one of these scenarios is a high probability, but as a group they present something in the moderate risk range. Borrowing a term from an Albany poster to this thread, the League needs to get proactive on this front - and sooner, rather than later. The MAAC sat on its butt and look what happened to them.

Agreeing with me twice in a 15-day span Carney? I'd better check for the temperature down in the Bad Place... is it getting frosty? :D

[401ks]

What if Georgetown decides that football is folly, and decide to join a national non-scholarship conference in the PFL?

I don't understand this comment. xconfusedx

Please explain.

[Dane96]

Not sure what is difficult to understnad- The PFL is THE national (based on territory) non-scholarship conference.

There is no other non-scholarship conference. We have hashed through this numerous times--- Call them what you want, but the PL's and IVY's get their kids money.

[Fordham]

cough-- 0-29.. cough, cough...





:) --dont get mad just a joke

xlolx xbawlingx a funny one, actually. and i was clearly showing my gender bias there when writing about hoops.

[Model Citizen]

I don't understand this comment. xconfusedx

Please explain.

He means "real" football, like what they play in the Patriot League. Not like the kind they play at USD or Dayton. xrotatehx

[Franks Tanks]

I hate to be taking sides with...well, with one of them, but LFN is right on this one. He and DFW enumerate some very good points regarding potential problems for the Patriot League. No one of these scenarios is a high probability, but as a group they present something in the moderate risk range. Borrowing a term from an Albany poster to this thread, the League needs to get proactive on this front - and sooner, rather than later. The MAAC sat on its butt and look what happened to them.

True-- I'm not totally at odds with LFN on this but I dont want NJIT or Manhattan as others have mentioned. Marist would have been ok if they came along in all sports, but that apparently wouldnt happen. I would be good with Monmouth if they agreed to move over in all sports and they promised to schedule the Lafayette game the first week of the year so I can get in some quick beach time.

[401ks]

Not sure what is difficult to understnad- The PFL is THE national (based on territory) non-scholarship conference.

There is no other non-scholarship conference. We have hashed through this numerous times--- Call them what you want, but the PL's and IVY's get their kids money.

The "football is folly..." part... xeyebrowx

[401ks]

He means "real" football, like what they play in the Patriot League. Not like the kind they play at USD or Dayton. xrotatehx

xlolx Yeah, we got that attitude from one of the Patriot League coaches during the recruiting process. Only, he wasn't talking about USD or Dayton. He was talking about G'Town! xrolleyesx

[401ks]

Call them what you want, but the PL's and IVY's get their kids money.

Georgetown gets their kids money? xconfusedx xconfusedx xconfusedx

I don't know about other folks' experiences, but Butler has come up with far more money than Georgetown was talking about, and the Lafayette coaches basically told my son, "Don't expect too much money from us."

One family's very recent experience. Take it for what it's worth. xcoolx

[danefan]

Georgetown gets their kids money? xconfusedx xconfusedx xconfusedx

I don't know about other folks' experiences, but Butler has come up with far more money than Georgetown was talking about, and the Lafayette coaches basically told my son, "Don't expect too much money from us."

One family's very recent experience. Take it for what it's worth. xcoolx

Exactly. Good friend of mine played at Lehigh. Paid $3000 a year for his education at Lehigh. And that wasn't academic money either!xthumbsupx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I don't understand this comment. xconfusedx

Please explain.

I should have said "What if Georgetown decides that spending so much money on football is folly, and decide to join a national non-scholarship conference in the PFL?"

I didn't mean to say that the PFL isn't football. It is - it's just deeper cost-containment than the PL.

[Model Citizen]

OK. I'll buy that.

[TheValleyRaider]

Eight core members for all sports save FB.

I was just talking about Football. I know there are 8 schools, but only 5 of them are Core schools when we're talking Football xpeacex


Army and Navy have FBS football programs even though they are "core" members. So what if the Big East breaks apart into two conferences and Army and Navy decide they have more in common with Rutgers, Syracuse, Louisville and the football-playing members of the Big East? Would the lure of playing in the Big East in all sports be too great?

As Tanks mentioned earlier, I'd be hard-pressed to see Army and Navy join a conference, especially after Army's brief sojourn in C-USA. Those two schools, plus Notre Dame, can play national schedules, get just about any opponent they want, and can do it all without the tie-ins of a conference. What's the benefit in joining for Football? And if we take Football out of the equation, what's the benefit of joining for other sports? Army and Navy don't exactly qualify as big national names in non-Football sports (except Lacrosse, but the Big East doesn't have Lacrosse).


What if Georgetown decides that football is folly, and decide to join a national non-scholarship conference in the PFL?

What if Holy Cross decides to join the A-10 for hoops?

What if an America East conference is dying for a 6th member for football, and they give Fordham an offer they can't refuse to join in all sports?

Not all that long ago Holy Cross threatened to leave the PL over basketball scholarships. That's not a "stable" conference. The membership may not have moved much over the last eight years. But it would take only one move to cause a crisis.

And if we expand, but these things still happen, then what? Are we really any more stable? Georgetown and Fordham have made a committment to the PL, like being in the PL, and don't exactly have great options outside of it. Georgetown's other choice is the Pioneer League. That's it. Unless they're seriously willing to step up their football money, they benefit from an association with our membership (especially HC and Fordham)

What exactly qualifies as "an offer they [Fordham] can't refuse when comparing the A-10 to America East? The A-10 gets considered for 2 bids, sometimes more, every season. If the Patriot League is a step down for them, America East isn't any better of an option.

Yeah Holy Cross threatened to leave over scholarships, almost a decade ago. It's not as if this happened yesterday. The entire League's gone scholarship since then, and added American who was already whole-hog for scholarships.

Do I support expansion? Yes. Without a doubt. Would I have taken Marist? Yes. I understand that some people didn't want to, but I would have. We didn't? Well, I'm glad Marist found a good place for themselves. There is nothing shameful about Pioneer membership in my eyes. But, the Patriot League survived without them, and I can't believe we won't now. Is this some sort of permanent position? No. Change is the only constant in our world. Will there be other options? Yes. Should we be discriminating in our selection? Indeed. I just don't see the immediacy in any of the doomsday scenarios coming to light. Maybe after the movement ban is lifted, but in that case, we will undoubtedly see other options arise xtwocentsx