LFN: The Ivy "Arms Race" And What It Could Mean

[Lehigh Football Nation]

A humorous look at what's happening in the Ivy League, and how it affects the Patriot League:

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com

It's worth asking if Cornell, Brown, or Columbia can hang with the "big three", and if the new aid policies will end up breaking up the first-ever sports conference.

[DFW HOYA]

For what it's worth, the article cited was not an editorial of the Columbia Spectator, but an opinion piece.

This gentlemen's opinion is about as practical as Prof. William Dowling's quixotic effort in the 1990's for Rutgers to renounce major college athletics and join the Patriot League.

[Franks Tanks]

A humorous look at what's happening in the Ivy League, and how it affects the Patriot League:

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com

It's worth asking if Cornell, Brown, or Columbia can hang with the "big three", and if the new aid policies will end up breaking up the first-ever sports conference.

Nice job

[the last indian]

"Nation's" piece is well done. Worth a read. I wish the PL would get on with scholarships and stop screwing around. They are inevitably coming so why the wait. I also believe that the addition of scholarships will encourage several other university programs with similar academics to join the league. That will be a big win for all concerned.

[bulldog10jw]

[They also won an Ivy League co-championship in 1996 - oops, there goes that theory - LFN]

I don't think so.

[Franks Tanks]

One thing I did realize is that the author of the article on Columbia said they cant compete because of there small undergrad population. After a quick serch it appears that only Penn and Cornell have more undergrads than Columbia. WTF is he talking about?

[Go...gate]

I don't think so.

Right. Columbia had a few very nice years in '94, '95 and '96, when they got some special AI exceptions (and, conveniently, the Patriot OOC opponents they were facing were struggling desperately) but did not win a title. They slipped back thereafter, but seemed to re-affirm their commitment to D-I and FCS athletics the last couple years, at least from an administrative and policy standpoint.

Very good and intriguing article, LFN, including the references to the possible obsolence of the Ivy League in favor of competition with some international schools. Princeton, Harvard, Yale, Oxford, Cambridge, perhaps the University of Dublin, The Sorbonne, McGill University in Canada, etc. would make for a very "International" Ivy League. But what of the other members? Would they surrender to NESCAC status, join the Patriot League, or, in the case of Pennsylvania, the Big East (just imagine the added gravitas they would give that league, while finally having a suitable conference for their historically "bigger time" basketball and football programs)?

[Green26]

The new financial aid policies of the wealthiest Ivies will have a significant impact on athletic recruiting, especially in the major sports. However, the tail (athletics) is not going to wag the dog (academics) in the Ivies.

Columbia wasn't co-champion of the Ivies in '96. Dartmouth was undefeated that year, and obviously undefeated in and champion of the Ivies. Looks like Columbia was co-champion back in '61, it's only Ivy championship since the formal founding of the conference.

Undergraduate enrollments of Ivies:

Dartmouth - 4000
Columbia - 4200
Princeton - 4800
Yale - 5300
Brown - 5800
Harvard - 6700
Penn - 9500
Cornell - 13,500

http://www.go4ivy.com/ivy.asp

[ngineer]

One could envision the Ivy breaking up over this in the not too distant future if they are not able to come to grips with the discrepancies.

[Franks Tanks]

The new financial aid policies of the wealthiest Ivies will have a significant impact on athletic recruiting, especially in the major sports. However, the tail (athletics) is not going to wag the dog (academics) in the Ivies.

Columbia wasn't co-champion of the Ivies in '96. Dartmouth was undefeated that year, and obviously undefeated in and champion of the Ivies. Looks like Columbia was co-champion back in '61, it's only Ivy championship since the formal founding of the conference.

Undergraduate enrollments of Ivies:

Dartmouth - 4000
Columbia - 4200
Princeton - 4800
Yale - 5300
Brown - 5800
Harvard - 6700
Penn - 9500
Cornell - 13,500

http://www.go4ivy.com/ivy.asp


Interesting on the enrollment numbers on this site. Wikipedoa, I understand it is Wikipedia, showed similar number but had Columbia more like 5900 undergrads.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Thanks for the fixes - I made the changes to the blog posting. I thought Columbia were co-champs in 1996 (the team with Marcelius Wiley on it), but they came a very close second.

Penn joining the Big East? If the Ivy did indeed break up, I sure as rain could see that happening. Franklin Field has been a Big East venue before (to Temple), and Penn and Villanova would play each other in two "Big 5" matchups every year... It would be a Big East slam-dunk.

Of the eight Ivies, if one were to bail, my money would be on Brown - and they would probably join the Patriot League.

Realistically it's hard to see any Ivy League endowment get anywhere close to Harvard, Yale or Princeton. In 2005, Columbia's endowment was fourth - and it was *half* of what Princeton's was and *1/5th* of what Harvard's was.

Honestly, I can't really see any way to solve the problem without athletic scholarships.

[DFW HOYA]

One could envision the Ivy breaking up over this in the not too distant future if they are not able to come to grips with the discrepancies.

The Patriot League would break up before the Ivy does.

And does anyone expect anything to change on the PL scholarship question at this point? Or does some press release get buried in the middle of May with a quote along the lines of "at this time, the Council of Presidents does not recommend changes to policies that have provided our student-athletes with such outstanding academic and athletic opportunities..."

[Ivytalk]

I'll believe in this "arms race" stuff when it bails Harvard out of its historically bad showing in men's hoops!xsmhx At that rate, I'll be waiting a LONG time!

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I'll believe in this "arms race" stuff when it bails Harvard out of its historically bad showing in men's hoops!xsmhx At that rate, I'll be waiting a LONG time!

Don't expect things to get much better with Tommy Amaker. ;)

[Ivytalk]

Don't expect things to get much better with Tommy Amaker. ;)

It's been all downhill for Tommy after Harvard beat Michigan.xsmhx Now how much of that $35 billion would it take to buy him out of his contract?xreadx I think the "arms race" stuff won't shrink the Ivies at all.

[Husky Alum]

It's been all downhill for Tommy after Harvard beat Michigan.xsmhx Now how much of that $35 billion would it take to buy him out of his contract?xreadx I think the "arms race" stuff won't shrink the Ivies at all.

I don't think a guy like Tom Stemberg puts his backing (and money) behind Harvard Basketball for it to fail. Stemberg hasn't failed at many ventures in life.

I'm just waiting for Harvard hoops to become dominant. I think that once Stemberg got the ear of the folks at Harvard, they started to listen a bit more.

Amaker may not be the guy to do it, but if not him, it will be the next person.

====

Anyone think that the reason for Columbia's lack of success has to do with facilities/location of the stadium?

I was recruited by half the Ivy League, really wanted to go to Columbia (I wanted to go to school in NYC, and I had an incredibly memorable recruiting trip), but the one thing the other schools kept telling me was how far the field was from campus and how inconvenient it was to play football there, and how no one went to the games because of the location of the field.

So where do I wind up? Northeastern - where the field was far from campus, how invonvenient it was to get to the field, and no one went to the games.

[Franks Tanks]

I don't think a guy like Tom Stemberg puts his backing (and money) behind Harvard Basketball for it to fail. Stemberg hasn't failed at many ventures in life.

I'm just waiting for Harvard hoops to become dominant. I think that once Stemberg got the ear of the folks at Harvard, they started to listen a bit more.

Amaker may not be the guy to do it, but if not him, it will be the next person.

====

Anyone think that the reason for Columbia's lack of success has to do with facilities/location of the stadium?

I was recruited by half the Ivy League, really wanted to go to Columbia (I wanted to go to school in NYC, and I had an incredibly memorable recruiting trip), but the one thing the other schools kept telling me was how far the field was from campus and how inconvenient it was to play football there, and how no one went to the games because of the location of the field.

So where do I wind up? Northeastern - where the field was far from campus, how invonvenient it was to get to the field, and no one went to the games.


Very true. Columbia's field and facilites are actually pretty nice, but they are about 200 NYC blocks from campus. The field is on the upper tip of Manhattan and not close. They either must take a train to the field through some neighborhoods that may freak out a 18 year old rural kid, or a bus that must take an hour to get to and from campus during afternoon communting hours.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I'll believe in this "arms race" stuff when it bails Harvard out of its historically bad showing in men's hoops!xsmhx At that rate, I'll be waiting a LONG time!

I can't believe that Ammaker has struggled so badly after beating Michigan.

On a more serious note, you know what would help Ivy League hoops? Getting rid of those back-to-back games on Friday and Saturday. They're brutal and kids are much less likely to burn a Friday night watching a game of hoops, especially in Harvard and Columbia where the night life is active.

If the Ivy League put their minds to it, it could be similar to football: either Harvard, Yale or Princeton is pretty much in it every year. And it sounds like Harvard is starting to get serious about it.

********

Back on topic: folks seems a little incredulous about the idea of the Ivy League breaking up, but with the breakup of the collusion in 1991 and Justice department lawsuits mandating that schools need to distribute 5% of their endowment a year, the pressure on the Ivy League model is greater than ever. I'd disagree that the PL would break up before the Ivy: the discrepancy between top and bottom isn't nearly as great money-wise, Georgetown to me is closing the gap quickly in football, and in other sports there are no schools that are totally outclassed.

The forces that could break up the PL are philosophical, and the PL (recently) has proven when push comes to shove they have been pragmatic (e.g., Holy Cross on scholarships). The forces that could break up the Ivy League are structural, e.g. three universities have all the money, resources and recruiting prestige. It's hard to see how they fix this short of the real solution, which is athletic scholarships.

[MplsBison]

At this point, the debate isn't whether H-Y-P will have football scholarships in 10 years.


The debate is whether they want to be middle of the pack BCS schools ala Stanford or if they want to be top tier FCS schools ala the Patriot League.

[Ivytalk]

Harvard FB hasn't had a losing season in a long time, but I take nothing for granted. The Crimson went from 8-2 and the Ivy "penthouse" in '87 to 2-8 "in the outhouse" the very next year. The way things have been going lately, however, it's hard to pick them to finish worse than 6-4 in any given year, and I'm sure the resources have a lot to do with it. Coach Murphy is officially the Thomas F. Stephenson '64 Family Foundation (or trust, or fund, or something) football coach. A very well endowed position!xnodx

[Fordham]

put me down in the "incredulous" crowd when it comes to Ivy break up, unless I'm missing something here. I certainly could be reading through this too quickly to have missed a particularly salient point.

Great article overall but in terms of the follow-up discussion here, every Ivy 'bottom feeder' would trade weekly beatings AND title hopes to H-Y-P in return for the "Ivy" label; arguably the best brand in higher learning in the world. If not, there's an endless supply of schools who would trade places with them.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Fair points, but nobody likes to be beat up in *every* sport over a long period of time.

[JoltinJoe]

put me down in the "incredulous" crowd when it comes to Ivy break up, unless I'm missing something here. I certainly could be reading through this too quickly to have missed a particularly salient point.

Great article overall but in terms of the follow-up discussion here, every Ivy 'bottom feeder' would trade weekly beatings AND title hopes to H-Y-P in return for the "Ivy" label; arguably the best brand in higher learning in the world. If not, there's an endless supply of schools who would trade places with them.

Agreed. I don't see this happening at all.

I could be wrong, but I'll believe it only when I see it.

[LBPop]

Undergraduate enrollments of Ivies:

Dartmouth - 4000
Columbia - 4200
Princeton - 4800
Yale - 5300
Brown - 5800
Harvard - 6700
Penn - 9500
Cornell - 13,500


If the Ivys wanted to compete at the upper levels, enrollment would not be the problem. As just one of many likely examples, Wake Forest does just fine as an ACC competitor and they boast about 4,400 undergrads. It simply takes dollars--i.e scholarships, facilities (see "dollars"), a quality reputation, and a committed admissions policy. I guess that last one could be a problem...xrolleyesx

[MplsBison]

Pop, I bet you could've used a pro scholarship policy at Gtown!

[bulldog10jw]

If the Ivys wanted to compete at the upper levels, enrollment would not be the problem. As just one of many likely examples, Wake Forest does just fine as an ACC competitor and they boast about 4,400 undergrads. It simply takes dollars--i.e scholarships, facilities (see "dollars"), a quality reputation, and a committed admissions policy. I guess that last one could be a problem...xrolleyesx


That IS a problem.

[Seawolf97]

Instead of a break up would the Ivy step up and go FBS with all schools? Maybe draw in UMass as a 9th school? Plenty of local FBS competition in the Northeast- Army, Navy, Uconn etc. They would over time be stronger than the MAC with better brand recognition, and a big media market between Boston and Philly to showcase their teams.

[Franks Tanks]

Instead of a break up would the Ivy step up and go FBS with all schools? Maybe draw in UMass as a 9th school? Plenty of local FBS competition in the Northeast- Army, Navy, Uconn etc. They would over time be stronger than the MAC with better brand recognition, and a big media market between Boston and Philly to showcase their teams.

They wouldnt add Umass no matter what.

[LBPop]

Pop, I bet you could've used a pro scholarship policy at Gtown!

Of course at Georgetown it's a two-headed problems--no scholarships and no money. Sounds a little like my high school scouting report:

"Small for his position, but he makes up for it by being slow."
xlolx :( xbawlingx

[Go...gate]

Instead of a break up would the Ivy step up and go FBS with all schools? Maybe draw in UMass as a 9th school? Plenty of local FBS competition in the Northeast- Army, Navy, Uconn etc. They would over time be stronger than the MAC with better brand recognition, and a big media market between Boston and Philly to showcase their teams.

If they were to do this, it would be with Army and Navy, IMHO.

[TheValleyRaider]

Instead of a break up would the Ivy step up and go FBS with all schools? Maybe draw in UMass as a 9th school? Plenty of local FBS competition in the Northeast- Army, Navy, Uconn etc. They would over time be stronger than the MAC with better brand recognition, and a big media market between Boston and Philly to showcase their teams.

I can't imagine the Ivies going FBS, forget even the addition of UMass.

The real problem here for the non-HYP Ivies is their continued desire to avoid the truly open, committed support to their athletic departments, while at the same time they now have no way to counterbalance the fact that recruits can suddenly get an HYP education for free (or at least, a good percentage of them can). Unfortunately for them, unless they match the contributions (and they do have substantial endowments themselves), they won't commit to going the other direction, which is more support for the athletic department overall.

If anything else, I expect the to continue to string along as they are, with HYP probably gaining a general advantage in the long run. They're not sacrificing their status as being "above the rest" for the sake of competitiveness xtwocentsx

[YaleFootballFan]

If they were to do this, it would be with Army and Navy, IMHO.

No doubt. Anyone remember the old EIBL (Eastern Intercollegiate Baseball League) from 15-20 years ago? It was the eight Ivies plus Army and Navy in baseball. This was before the Patriot League was formed.

Today Navy competes with the Ivies in swimming (EISL) and at one time Army was a member of ECAC Hockey along with the Ivy schools.

I've always liked the idea of a football conference (EIFL?) with Army, Navy and the Ivies. Maybe even throw in Notre Dame. Unfortunately, I don't think it'll ever happen.

[Go...gate]

No doubt. Anyone remember the old EIBL (Eastern Intercollegiate Baseball League) from 15-20 years ago? It was the eight Ivies plus Army and Navy in baseball. This was before the Patriot League was formed.

Today Navy competes with the Ivies in swimming (EISL) and at one time Army was a member of ECAC Hockey along with the Ivy schools.

I've always liked the idea of a football conference (EIFL?) with Army, Navy and the Ivies. Maybe even throw in Notre Dame. Unfortunately, I don't think it'll ever happen.


There was an EIBL for basketball, too, which included the academies. This is why I believe it could happen. The historical relationships make a big difference here. Air Force would be left out in the wild blue yonder, but USMA and USNA would probably not lose too mcuh sllep over it.

[DFW HOYA]

The Ivies aren't going anywhere. If they did, it would have happened during the I-A/I-AA split, where Harvard, Yale, and Princeton had the attendance to stay while Columbia and Brown couldn't come close.

The biggest change in Ivy football over those years has been the decline of Dartmouth, the last ranked AP Top 25 program in the league (#19 in 1971). Downscaling Momorial Field to Columbia-sized dimensions was a message that the Green Indians are no longer a major program in New England as they once were.

H-Y-P will get better and better while the rest will take their medicine and accept it.

[Go...gate]

IMHO, the change will not really have a big long-term effect, because the Ivies are also reducing roster size (no more freshman teams and small JV squads, if any at all) and number of slots for FB players (I believe it is 25-30 per class, but I would be happy for some clarification on this number) This reduction in numbers really makes a difference in the course of a season and may artificially impose more parity.

Also, I have to say that, at least with respect to Princeton, all these so-called advantages, in recent years, have produced a last-place basketball team (which was in the AP/UPI top 10 only ten years ago) and a solid, occasionally very good, but hardly dominant FCS football program.

[MplsBison]

There was an EIBL for basketball, too, which included the academies. This is why I believe it could happen. The historical relationships make a big difference here. Air Force would be left out in the wild blue yonder, but USMA and USNA would probably not lose too mcuh sllep over it.


Why do we even have the Air Force in the first place?


The Navy and Marines have jets. The Army has helicoptors.

[Green26]

DFW Hoya, it's true that Dartmouth was the last ranked D-I Ivy, but the '71 team was not ranked 19th or at all (to my recollection). The Dartmouth '70 team was undefeated, ranked 14th and won the Lambert Trophy. The '71 team was 8-1 and co-champs with Cornell--having lost to Columbia but having beaten Cornell (Marinaro's senior year) in a televised game covered by ABC's number one crew of Wilkenson, Schenkel and Fleming. Yale was also ranked for a while during the '70 season, but dropped out of the top 20 after losing to Dartmouth in the Bowl--in front of over 60,000 people. Dartmouth won or shared 17 Ivy championships from 1956 - 1996. Green26, get it?