Most overrated NBA player

[813Jag]

Just to keep the overrated discussions going. Who's the most overrated NBA player.
This guy gets my vote:
http://www.hoopsvibe.com/IMG/dirk_nowitzki-arton21118-240x240.jpg

[Go...gate]

Ever or at present?

[813Jag]

Ever or at present?
Both, just like the football thread.

[Go...gate]

Elvin Hayes
Scottie Pippen

[Cleets]

Danny Ainge without any argument..!!!!!
xlolx

[Gil Dobie]

Michael Jordan, I really don't think he was better than Dr J or Elgin Baylor. He played in an era when most teams had one or two stars, the Bulls had 3. Some of the teams Dr J and Baylor played against had 5 hall of famers on the court at the same time. Jordan is a top 10, but not best of all-time. And that just my opinion. xoopsx xlolx

[proasu89]

Elvin Hayes
Scottie Pippen

I think Go...gate has game, set, and matched this thread.

No way Pippen belongs on the 50 greatest list.


Got to give Gil props for sticking his neck out. I believe your wrong, but a gutsy pick.


I'll throw out Bill Walton

[I Bleed Purple]

Michael Jordan, I really don't think he was better than Dr J or Elgin Baylor. He played in an era when most teams had one or two stars, the Bulls had 3. Some of the teams Dr J and Baylor played against had 5 hall of famers on the court at the same time. Jordan is a top 10, but not best of all-time. And that just my opinion. xoopsx xlolx
Uh...no...Unless you count Phil Jackson as a star. Rodman was no better a third star than Detlef Shrempf, Jeff Hornacek, Terry Porter, etc. It was Jordan who rose above all other players of that decade. I think 10 of 12 games in the two Jazz-Bulls finals were within two points with 10 seconds left. Bulls won both series. Ugh...opens old wounds. $@$%@#$(@*

[seantaylor]

Kobe Bryant

[Gil Dobie]

Uh...no...Unless you count Phil Jackson as a star. Rodman was no better a third star than Detlef Shrempf, Jeff Hornacek, Terry Porter, etc. It was Jordan who rose above all other players of that decade. I think 10 of 12 games in the two Jazz-Bulls finals were within two points with 10 seconds left. Bulls won both series. Ugh...opens old wounds. $@$%@#$(@*

Anyone that gets 15 RPG is a stud in today's game. Even with 2 stars, the Bulls still played against teams with 1 or 2 stars, not 5 or 6 per team that Dr J and Baylor played against. All 3 are in my top 10, but none is the best of all-time.

[spelunker64]

all of them...

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Patrick Ewing....

[Eyes of Old Main]

I agree with Gil. Jordan was a great player. One of the best, but such a big part of his mystique was wrapped up in his commercial persona it's hard to say his reputation was all earned on the court.

[bodoyle]

John Starks

[gmoney55]

David Robinson, just look at the series against Hakeem. Agree on Pippen and Ewing. Current I agree with Nowitzki and I'd say Nash too. Nash is solid but he didn't deserve multiple MVPs and plays so-so at best defense.

[AshevilleApp2]

Michael Jordan, I really don't think he was better than Dr J or Elgin Baylor. He played in an era when most teams had one or two stars, the Bulls had 3. Some of the teams Dr J and Baylor played against had 5 hall of famers on the court at the same time. Jordan is a top 10, but not best of all-time. And that just my opinion. xoopsx xlolx

Agreed. MJ benefited from being on top of his game in the 1990's; a relatively down time for the NBA competition-wise. Imagine if the Doc had been on Sports Center throughout his career? Or Oscar Robertson?

[Seahawks Fan]

Stephon Marbury - Overrated and disruptive. xnodx

[andy7171]

David Robinson, just look at the series against Hakeem. Agree on Pippen and Ewing. Current I agree with Nowitzki and I'd say Nash too. Nash is solid but he didn't deserve multiple MVPs and plays so-so at best defense.

xeekx OH NO! I know you didn't just call out the Admiral! xeekx


Scottie Pippen is by far the most overrated player in ANY sport!

[Appaholic]

Michael Jordan, I really don't think he was better than Dr J or Elgin Baylor. He played in an era when most teams had one or two stars, the Bulls had 3. Some of the teams Dr J and Baylor played against had 5 hall of famers on the court at the same time. Jordan is a top 10, but not best of all-time. And that just my opinion. xoopsx xlolx

Gutsy pick Gil.....and I am a Carolina homer so of course I'll disagree. But to me what made Jordan such a great player was not his scoring (Baylor, Big O, Dr J all better scorers IMO), it was his defense.......you know that aspect of the NBA game which is non-existent in today's game. Jordan would shut players down and most of his highlight reel plays were pre-empted by him creating a turnover with his defense. No one listed in the top 10 All Time greatest (except the 7 footers) could hold a candle to Jordan's defense.....xthumbsupx

[Appaholic]

Ralph Sampson......Stephon Marbury.....Larry Johnson.....Dirk Nowitzki......Shawn Kemp

[Peems]

Instead of congratulating people on sticking their necks out, I will call them what they are...CRAZY. What makes Jordan overrated? Also please tell me who these "5 stars' were that Dr. J had to play against on one team?

[Appaholic]

Instead of congratulating people on sticking their necks out, I will call them what they are...CRAZY. What makes Jordan overrated? Also please tell me who these "5 stars' were that Dr. J had to play against on one team?

Accurate retort (I'm in a giving mood today).....have to agree with Peems on this one.....who were the all star 5 that Dr J had to beat.....Jordan faced Pistons, Lakers, Celtics all in their era's....and all had all stars all over the court......Who did Dr J play? His team won one title (w/ Moses Malone) ad there was only the Lakers who were dominate at the time.....you can't knock Jordan's 6 straight titles (when he played full seasons).....with Bill Cartwright? Scott Williams? BJ Armstrong? Grant and Rodman? Jordan wasn't the greatest scorer of all time, but he wasthe greatest player of our generation and during the most tatlented NBA era ever....

[AshevilleApp2]

Accurate retort (I'm in a giving mood today).....have to agree with Peems on this one.....who were the all star 5 that Dr J had to beat.....Jordan faced Pistons, Lakers, Celtics all in their era's....and all had all stars all over the court......Who did Dr J play? His team won one title (w/ Moses Malone) ad there was only the Lakers who were dominate at the time.....you can't knock Jordan's 6 straight titles (when he played full seasons).....with Bill Cartwright? Scott Williams? BJ Armstrong? Grant and Rodman? Jordan wasn't the greatest scorer of all time, but he wasthe greatest player of our generation and during the most tatlented NBA era ever....

I think the Julius Erving reference was to the Lakers and the Celtics of the early 1980's. Your right that Jordan played against the Lakers, Celtics and Pistons during their eras, but he (and his team) never won a championship until these teams were past their primes. The 1990's was not the most talented era ever.

That said, Jordan was one of the greatest players ever. But to say that he was the greatest ever is a stretch. Of course I hate Carolina basketball, and he carries that taint.

[AshevilleApp2]

Accurate retort (I'm in a giving mood today).....have to agree with Peems on this one.....who were the all star 5 that Dr J had to beat.....Jordan faced Pistons, Lakers, Celtics all in their era's....and all had all stars all over the court......Who did Dr J play? His team won one title (w/ Moses Malone) ad there was only the Lakers who were dominate at the time.....you can't knock Jordan's 6 straight titles (when he played full seasons).....with Bill Cartwright? Scott Williams? BJ Armstrong? Grant and Rodman? Jordan wasn't the greatest scorer of all time, but he wasthe greatest player of our generation and during the most tatlented NBA era ever....

I think the Julius Erving reference was to the Lakers and the Celtics of the early 1980's. Your right that Jordan played against the Lakers, Celtics and Pistons during their eras, but he (and his team) never won a championship until these teams were past their primes. The 1990's was not the most talented era ever.

That said, Jordan was one of the greatest players ever. But to say that he was the greatest ever is a stretch. Of course I hate Carolina basketball, and he carries that taint. :D

[Touchdown Yosef]

I think the Julius Erving reference was to the Lakers and the Celtics of the early 1980's. Your right that Jordan played against the Lakers, Celtics and Pistons during their eras, but he (and his team) never won a championship until these teams were past their primes. The 1990's was not the most talented era ever.

That said, Jordan was one of the greatest players ever. But to say that he was the greatest ever is a stretch. Of course I hate Carolina basketball, and he carries that taint.

He did beat Stockton and Malone in their prime, two first ballot hall of famers.

[AshevilleApp2]

He did beat Stockton and Malone in their prime, two first ballot hall of famers.

The Jazz were a good team, no question about it. Houston had some good teams in the '90's as well.

But the '87 Lakers had
Magic Johnson - James Worthy - Byron Scott - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - Michael Cooper - A.C. Green - Kurt Rambis - Mychal Thompson (the Great Eight.

Again I'm not saying Jordan wasn't great, but it seems that some want to put him head and shoulders above other stars. I can't agree.

[Marcus Garvey]

The Jazz were a good team, no question about it. Houston had some good teams in the '90's as well.

But the '87 Lakers had
Magic Johnson - James Worthy - Byron Scott - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - Michael Cooper - A.C. Green - Kurt Rambis - Mychal Thompson (the Great Eight.

Again I'm not saying Jordan wasn't great, but it seems that some want to put him head and shoulders above other stars. I can't agree.

I think Jordan was clearly the greatest player of his era, and as such, elevated the NBA's profile. Whether or not he's the greatest ever his very arguable, and will never be decided.

But easily one of the most overrated players of the current era is Stephan Marbury. This guy has great numbers, but you can't deny the fact that every team he plays for gets worse once he arrives.

[Gil Dobie]

The Jazz were a good team, no question about it. Houston had some good teams in the '90's as well.

But the '87 Lakers had
Magic Johnson - James Worthy - Byron Scott - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - Michael Cooper - A.C. Green - Kurt Rambis - Mychal Thompson (the Great Eight.

Again I'm not saying Jordan wasn't great, but it seems that some want to put him head and shoulders above other stars. I can't agree.

Lakers also had Robert McAdoo (HOF), Jamal Wilkes, Jim Chones, earlier in the 1980's, and Kareem was on his 17 or 18th year in 1987. Celtics had Bird, Dennis Johnson, Robert Parrish, Cedric Cornbread Maxwell, Bill Walton, Danny Ainge, Nate Archibald, Kevin McHale on some of those 1980's teams. McHale was 6th man when Maxwell was on the team. Philly also had Bobby Jones, Caldwell Jones and Mo Cheeks during their run.

The early 1970's Knicks had Walt Frazier, Earl Monroe, Bill Bradley, Jerry Lucas, Dave DeBuschere and Willis Reed, all in the Hall of Fame. Lakers only had Jerry West and Elgin Baylor to battle them, later West & Chamberlain.

[Seahawks Fan]

.........

But easily one of the most overrated players of the current era is Stephan Marbury. This guy has great numbers, but you can't deny the fact that every team he plays for gets worse once he arrives.

Completely agree. Despite his $20 million salary this year, he slowed it down once Isiah Thomas started bringing him in off the bench. The Knicks play better in his absence.

[AshevilleApp2]

Completely agree. Despite his $20 million salary this year, he slowed it down once Isiah Thomas started bringing him in off the bench. The Knicks play better in his absence.

Can't argue with that.

[seantaylor]

How people can say Dirk is overrated is beyond me. He is only the 3rd player ever to shoot 50% from the floor, 40% from 3, and 90% from the line in the same season. Larry Legend and Steve Nash were the other 2.

[813Jag]

How people can say Dirk is overrated is beyond me. He is only the 3rd player ever to shoot 50% from the floor, 40% from 3, and 90% from the line in the same season. Larry Legend and Steve Nash were the other 2.
That's all fine and dandy, but where does he go in the postseason. When you're an MVP you're supposed to make plays in the playoffs.

[seantaylor]

That's all fine and dandy, but where does he go in the postseason. When you're an MVP you're supposed to make plays in the playoffs.

You don't remember the And One dunk he had over San Antonio in game 7 to send the Mavs to the finals?

[I Bleed Purple]

The Jazz were a good team, no question about it. Houston had some good teams in the '90's as well.

But the '87 Lakers had
Magic Johnson - James Worthy - Byron Scott - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - Michael Cooper - A.C. Green - Kurt Rambis - Mychal Thompson (the Great Eight.

Again I'm not saying Jordan wasn't great, but it seems that some want to put him head and shoulders above other stars. I can't agree.

And pre-prime Stockton and Malone took them to 7 games with Thurl Bailey as their third best player.

[813Jag]

You don't remember the And One dunk he had over San Antonio in game 7 to send the Mavs to the finals?
So one play makes him not overrated? If that's the case what happened in the Finals?

[lucchesicourt]

Cunningham , a perennial all star, also played for the 76ers.
As far as Jordan goes, I don't consider him close to the greatest player ever. There are too many others that had a greater impact than Jordan. To name a few, Bill Russell (12 time NC), Kareem Abdul Jabbar (Lew Alindor), Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Jerry West, Oscar Robertson, etc. To be considered one of the greatest of all time, I think you not only have to perform well yourself, but you need to make the players around you better too, something all of the guys above have done. I am not so sure Jordan made others better.

[Peems]

Cunningham , a perennial all star, also played for the 76ers.
As far as Jordan goes, I don't consider him close to the greatest player ever. There are too many others that had a greater impact than Jordan. To name a few, Bill Russell (12 time NC), Kareem Abdul Jabbar (Lew Alindor), Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Jerry West, Oscar Robertson, etc. To be considered one of the greatest of all time, I think you not only have to perform well yourself, but you need to make the players around you better too, something all of the guys above have done. I am not so sure Jordan made others better.

xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx

This is the most absurd statement one can make about Jordan. If there is one thing that Jordan did, it was make everyone around him better. People on this forum have been saying that Pippen was overrated and that the only reason he was good was because of Jordan. Jordan made guys like Luc Longley and Horace Grant household names. Ron Harper, Steve Kerr, they all were made great because of Jordan. Jordan made people better because of his will and work ethic. He wanted to win more than anyone else, and his teammates didn't want to disappoint him. He controlled the most temperamental personality in the league in Dennis Rodman he won all those championships without a dominant big man. Name one other team in the current era that has won without a great big man. It's impossible. Toni Kukoc for christ's sake was a feared player on the Bulls! When he went to the Bucks...not so much. JORDAN MADE ME A BETTER PLAYER.

One thing I'm glad most people aren't saying is that Lebron is the greatestxrolleyesx xrolleyesx

[NE MT GRIZZ]

I don't understand all the hate for Scottie Pippin.
He would have been the #1 guy for most other NBA teams at the time.

He played incredible defense, and according to MJ, finishes plays better than anybody in the league.

If Pippin wasn't with the Bulls, they would have 2-3 titles at best, instead of 6. Jordan never won a title without Pippin, just like Gretzky never won a title without Mark Messier.

[Peems]

I don't understand all the hate for Scottie Pippin.
He would have been the #1 guy for most other NBA teams at the time.

He played incredible defense, and according to MJ, finishes plays better than anybody in the league.

If Pippin wasn't with the Bulls, they would have 2-3 titles at best, instead of 6. Jordan never won a title without Pippin, just like Gretzky never won a title without Mark Messier.

Thank you for this. The full year that Jordan was out they lost to the Magic(who had Shaq and Penny). But Pippen averaged 22 pts a game 5.6 assts 8.7 rbs, 3 stls a game in that year and the year that Jordan first came back averaged pretty much the exact same stats. Pippen was good...real good. With Jordan he was great.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html

[proasu89]

Cunningham , a perennial all star, also played for the 76ers.
As far as Jordan goes, I don't consider him close to the greatest player ever. There are too many others that had a greater impact than Jordan. To name a few, Bill Russell (12 time NC), Kareem Abdul Jabbar (Lew Alindor), Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Jerry West, Oscar Robertson, etc. To be considered one of the greatest of all time, I think you not only have to perform well yourself, but you need to make the players around you better too, something all of the guys above have done. I am not so sure Jordan made others better.

Peems said it for mexchinscratchx xnutsx

[Reed Rothchild]

Rickey Davis - I have no idea why he is still gettig paid in the association

[Ivytalk]

Allen Iverson
Yao Ming

[UMass922]

I can understand if people want to say that MJ isn't the greatest of all time, but it just doesn't seem right to put his name in the "overrated" category.

My nominee: Dominique Wilkins. Great scorer, but not quite a Hall of Famer, IMHO.

[seantaylor]

Dirk with 37 and 12 tonight.xnodx

[lucchesicourt]

Let's see. Luc Longley was the center for the Bulls for most of Jordan's career? I seem to remeber someone else being there who WAS a STAR:

"On June 27, 1988, the Bulls obtained Cartwright from the New York Knicks in exchange for Charles Oakley in a trade that propelled the Bulls to their first three NBA World Championships. Finally armed with an interior defensive presence to battle the centers of the NBA while providing a low-post scoring threat, Cartwright helped the Bulls to at least 55 victories in each of his final five seasons in Chicago, including the first back-to-back 60+ win seasons in Bulls history (1990-92). Cartwright appeared in 397 games with the Bulls, averaging 9.2 ppg and 5.5 rpg, shooting .475 from the floor and .735 from the free throw line. "

Without Cartwright do the Bulls have the same success with Jordan? I think not!!

As to making others better around them, I am not saying Jordan didn't. I am saying not to the same level as the ones I mentioned. The ones I mentioneed all had more assists/game to go along with other great numbers such as rebounds and career shooting percentages.
IMO magic was the best of all time at making others better around him and I am a Celtic fan. Bird a close second. And as for competetive nature, Jordan was far from alone in that aspect. Bird, Magic, Russell, Cowens, were all of the same intensity or greater than Jordan. I don't think anyone had more intensity on the court than Dave Cowens.

[lucchesicourt]

Jordan is not overrated. he is definitely one of the best of all time, but not in the top five IMO. How do you judge who is the grestest of all time? Is it championships? If so Jordan is down the list a ways. Is it overall individual performance? If so Jordan is very near the top. Or is it overall composite statistics in several categories? Jordan is farther down the list here. Or is it just how the public and media make someone out to be? Nike did great here with MJ.
People judge QB's by he number of championships rather than their statistics?
If NBA player's are judged by the same level then Jordan isn't in the top 3.
Jordan was great, just not the greatest of all time, IMO.
That would be Bill Russell.

[Gil Dobie]

The reason I say Jordan is overrated is the amount of people that think he is the best of all-time. He is one of the best, but not the best, or even top 5, imo. xthumbsupx

[Peems]

Jordan is not overrated. he is definitely one of the best of all time, but not in the top five IMO. How do you judge who is the grestest of all time? Is it championships? If so Jordan is down the list a ways. Is it overall individual performance? If so Jordan is very near the top. Or is it overall composite statistics in several categories? Jordan is farther down the list here. Or is it just how the public and media make someone out to be? Nike did great here with MJ.
People judge QB's by he number of championships rather than their statistics?
If NBA player's are judged by the same level then Jordan isn't in the top 3.
Jordan was great, just not the greatest of all time, IMO.
That would be Bill Russell.


Bill has the most rings at 11. Next is Sam Jones at 10. After that every single person who is ahead of Jordan was part of the Celtics dynasty back in the 60s. The only exception is Robert Horry, who I don't think anyone would say is better than Jordan.

Gil and a few others have stated that Jordan is not in their top 5. Please tell me who is. Jordan is the greatest basketball player of all time. Please just go watch him play, bust out some old game tapes and watch him just completely take over a game. He did it ALL

[813Jag]

The problem with calling someone the greatest of all time is that you would have to see them all play. And we all know it's hard to compare eras. Therefore I refer to Jordan as the greatest that I've seen, being that I'm only 31, and I don't think watching clips of someone would give me a great impression of that person.

I'm biased I'm a Jordan fan, his game changed over his career, one thing you can't take from him is that he won titles with less than spectacular casts. Pete Myers? Bobby Hansen? Randy Brown? all these guys played good minutes.

[Marcus Garvey]

Bill has the most rings at 11. Next is Sam Jones at 10. After that every single person who is ahead of Jordan was part of the Celtics dynasty back in the 60s. The only exception is Robert Horry, who I don't think anyone would say is better than Jordan.

Gil and a few others have stated that Jordan is not in their top 5. Please tell me who is. Jordan is the greatest basketball player of all time. Please just go watch him play, bust out some old game tapes and watch him just completely take over a game. He did it ALL

xlolx xlolx xlolx
Robert "Right Place, Right Time" Horry

[813Jag]

Let's see. Luc Longley was the center for the Bulls for most of Jordan's career? I seem to remeber someone else being there who WAS a STAR:

"On June 27, 1988, the Bulls obtained Cartwright from the New York Knicks in exchange for Charles Oakley in a trade that propelled the Bulls to their first three NBA World Championships. Finally armed with an interior defensive presence to battle the centers of the NBA while providing a low-post scoring threat, Cartwright helped the Bulls to at least 55 victories in each of his final five seasons in Chicago, including the first back-to-back 60+ win seasons in Bulls history (1990-92). Cartwright appeared in 397 games with the Bulls, averaging 9.2 ppg and 5.5 rpg, shooting .475 from the floor and .735 from the free throw line. "
Without Cartwright do the Bulls have the same success with Jordan? I think not!!

As to making others better around them, I am not saying Jordan didn't. I am saying not to the same level as the ones I mentioned. The ones I mentioneed all had more assists/game to go along with other great numbers such as rebounds and career shooting percentages.
IMO magic was the best of all time at making others better around him and I am a Celtic fan. Bird a close second. And as for competetive nature, Jordan was far from alone in that aspect. Bird, Magic, Russell, Cowens, were all of the same intensity or greater than Jordan. I don't think anyone had more intensity on the court than Dave Cowens.
Cartwright was an intregal part of that team but his numbers were down in each of the 3 Finals the Bulls played in with him.

You would expect these guys to have better rebounding numbers than Jordan and Magic's position meant he had to make players better around him.

The Bulls won titles with Scott Williams and Brian Williams playing Center as well.

[NE MT GRIZZ]

Gil and a few others have stated that Jordan is not in their top 5. Please tell me who is. Jordan is the greatest basketball player of all time. Please just go watch him play, bust out some old game tapes and watch him just completely take over a game. He did it ALL


MJ is not the best IMO because of the competition he played against.
He is in my top 5 though.

1. Kareem
2. Magic
3. Bill Russell
4. Wilt
5. MJ

You could argue the placement for all these guys.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

MJ is not the best IMO because of the competition he played against.
He is in my top 5 though.

1. Kareem
2. Magic
3. Bill Russell
4. Wilt
5. MJ

You could argue the placement for all these guys.

Jordan did more with less around him then any player on that list except perhaps Wilt. IMO, Jordan did play against very good competition especially during the first 3 peat. The Lakers, Blazers and Suns were all very good teams and probably 3 of the best runner ups in the last 20 years. He basically beat the Blazers by himself in that series. The second go around the league was pretty watered but the Jazz still had two HOF'ers.

[lucchesicourt]

Wilt had some very good players ariound him too. Let's face it, to win in the NBA you need more than one great player (3 is ideal), even if your name is Jordan. The fact is, when Jordan was playing he got all the media hype, just like Tiger Woodsis getting it now, but with ONE great exception.And that is, golf IS an individual sport while basketball is a team sport that cannot be won by one great player. In the entire history of the NBA, only one scoring champion has gone on to win the NBA champioship. It seems having the highest scoring player on a team is not the way to win a championship. The best way to win is to have contributions from an entire team. And from what I have learned over the past 40+ years is that the team that plays defense, and rebounds the best will win the majority of the time. Scoring is not as important as the defense and rebounding. If someone was to ask me who was the best one on one player. my vote would go to Pete Maravich. The hardest scorer to stop would be Kevin McHale, IMO. But neither would be in my top five players of all time.