Patsy (Recruiting) Ratings - Lafayette

[carney2]

LAFAYETTE TOTAL = 56 Patsy Points

QUALITY = 25: Nine players received one star from Scout. Seven were rated by Rivals, but none received stars. Overall, 10 recruits (36%) were rated by Rivals and/or Scout. This is down from 15 (50%) in last year's class.

CLASS SIZE = 6: 28 recruits.

DISTRIBUTION = 8: No kicker (and they need a kicker).

SPEED = 5: Only two (both linebackers) with enough speed to get noted by the recruiting services.

TRIGGER = 0: Only one QB, and not rated by either service.

JUMBO =5: All three of the OL recruits are 275 or greater; two of the six DL recruits make it into the 250+ range.

NEEDS = 7:

Offensive Line = 4: As noted, all 3 OL recruits hit 275+ and two are rated. Looks like a very good group. Three however, seems a little light to award all 5 potential points for the number one need.
Running Back = 2: Did not get that baby bull that Tavani needs to make his leather helmet offense go. Did however, land the heir apparent to Joe Russo at fullback.
Wide Receiver = 1: Four rather small wideouts without ratings. Look a lot like the recently graduated group that they will be replacing, many of whom reached their senior year without earning a letter.

[carney2]

REVISED.

I put down my single barrel bourbon long enough to look again. All revisions are due to the fact that I miscounted the OL recruits, all of whom are jumbos.

This is a work in progress and you should expect revisions every now and again as information comes available and I (occasionally) sober up.

LAFAYETTE TOTAL = 58 Patsy Points

QUALITY = 25: Nine players received one star from Scout. Seven were rated by Rivals, but none received stars. Overall, 10 recruits (36%) were rated by Rivals and/or Scout. This is down from 15 (50%) in last year's class.

CLASS SIZE = 6: 28 recruits.

DISTRIBUTION = 8: No kicker (and they need a kicker).

SPEED = 5: Only two (both linebackers) with enough speed to get noted by the recruiting services.

TRIGGER = 0: Only one QB, and not rated by either service.

JUMBO =6: All four of the OL recruits are 275 or greater; two of the six DL recruits make it into the 250+ range.

NEEDS = 8:

Offensive Line = 5: As noted, all 4 OL recruits hit 275+ and two are rated. Looks like a very good group.
Running Back = 2: Did not get that baby bull that Tavani needs to make his leather helmet offense go. Did however, land the heir apparent to Joe Russo at fullback.
Wide Receiver = 1: Four rather small wideouts without ratings. Look a lot like the recently graduated group that they will be replacing, many of whom reached their senior year without earning a letter, but who played well at the end of their careers.

Patsy Points to date:

1. Fordham 71
2. Lafayette 58

[Lehigh74]

Based on the revised Patsy Rating system, how does this years Lafayette class compare with last years?

[Andy]

REVISED.

I put down my single barrel bourbon long enough to look again. All revisions are due to the fact that I miscounted the OL recruits, all of whom are jumbos.

This is a work in progress and you should expect revisions every now and again as information comes available and I (occasionally) sober up.

LAFAYETTE TOTAL = 58 Patsy Points

QUALITY = 25: Nine players received one star from Scout. Seven were rated by Rivals, but none received stars. Overall, 10 recruits (36%) were rated by Rivals and/or Scout. This is down from 15 (50%) in last year's class.

CLASS SIZE = 6: 28 recruits.

DISTRIBUTION = 8: No kicker (and they need a kicker).

SPEED = 5: Only two (both linebackers) with enough speed to get noted by the recruiting services.

TRIGGER = 0: Only one QB, and not rated by either service.

JUMBO =6: All four of the OL recruits are 275 or greater; two of the six DL recruits make it into the 250+ range.

NEEDS = 8:

Offensive Line = 5: As noted, all 4 OL recruits hit 275+ and two are rated. Looks like a very good group.
Running Back = 2: Did not get that baby bull that Tavani needs to make his leather helmet offense go. Did however, land the heir apparent to Joe Russo at fullback.
Wide Receiver = 1: Four rather small wideouts without ratings. Look a lot like the recently graduated group that they will be replacing, many of whom reached their senior year without earning a letter, but who played well at the end of their careers.

Patsy Points to date:

1. Fordham 71
2. Lafayette 58

carney, I'm not looking to affect the ratings, just to present a different opinion on the WRs. Through the grapevine (a very short one), the coaches are very high on this receiver group which is characterized by speed and athleticism. Gould is perhaps the best of the group, Stripe set his HS sprint record, and Tandy is also very fast. Their videos (on the occasions when I've been able to get them to run) IMO support the staff's assessment.

True, none is taller than 5'10". Their size, speed, and athleticism reminds me much more of our celebrated recruits of the past few years, Adair and Layton, than of the just graduated group, a group which included a converted HS fullback in Dixon, a possession receiver in Roeder who had great hands but not much speed, and a 6'2" 190 pounder in Logan. These kids IMO will have much more impact on the program and soon.

Oh and BTW, I guess I cost LC some ratings points in convincing you that DL was a lesser priority. You were right in step with the coaching staff it seems, as they brought in six DLmen, more than I thought they needed. Good job.

[carney2]

Based on the revised Patsy Rating system, how does this years Lafayette class compare with last years?

There was a lot of discussion on the Lafayette board about the perceived quality of this group. Three opinions at the moment:

1. The coaches say that they got what they wanted: OL and LBs.

2. Many (most) of the faithful say that this is a good group, with OL, DL, LB and now as Andy points out in this thread (he is one of the half dozen or so on this and other boards whose opinions I take very seriously), WR being very serviceable.

3. A vocal minority says that this group will keep the Pards in the hunt in the Patriot League, but does little about moving the program to the next level.

In my mind a telling statistic: there were 15 Rated recruits in last year's class and only 10 in this year's. Say what you will about the recruiting systems (and few have anything good to say), but a drop of 33% is significant when you are talking about kids that we know other schools were after. Tavani says that 75% of the kids who visited - and, I assume, were offered - signed. The new facilities were supposed to be a magnet for recruits so, despite the high signing rate, I rate this group as mildly disappointing.

[Fordham]

There was a lot of discussion on the Lafayette board about the perceived quality of this group. Three opinions at the moment:

1. The coaches say that they got what they wanted: OL and LBs.

2. Many (most) of the faithful say that this is a good group, with OL, DL, LB and now as Andy points out in this thread (he is one of the half dozen or so on this and other boards whose opinions I take very seriously), WR being very serviceable.

3. A vocal minority says that this group will keep the Pards in the hunt in the Patriot League, but does little about moving the program to the next level.

In my mind a telling statistic: there were 15 Rated recruits in last year's class and only 10 in this year's. Say what you will about the recruiting systems (and few have anything good to say), but a drop of 33% is significant when you are talking about kids that we know other schools were after. Tavani says that 75% of the kids who visited - and, I assume, were offered - signed. The new facilities were supposed to be a magnet for recruits so, despite the high signing rate, I rate this group as mildly disappointing.

I know you're the curmudgeon, carney, but still ...

what your argument really says is that they didn't target the right kids right from the get-go since it sounds like whatever kids they targeted pretty much all signed. That's a remarkable stat (75%). Combine that with the fact that at this level Rivals, Scout and others are a hair above worthless imo and I think you should be VERY pleased as a Lafayette fan. Or at least the non-curmudgeonly Pard fans should be pleased.

[Franks Tanks]

REVISED.

I put down my single barrel bourbon long enough to look again. All revisions are due to the fact that I miscounted the OL recruits, all of whom are jumbos.

This is a work in progress and you should expect revisions every now and again as information comes available and I (occasionally) sober up.

LAFAYETTE TOTAL = 58 Patsy Points

QUALITY = 25: Nine players received one star from Scout. Seven were rated by Rivals, but none received stars. Overall, 10 recruits (36%) were rated by Rivals and/or Scout. This is down from 15 (50%) in last year's class.
CLASS SIZE = 6: 28 recruits.

DISTRIBUTION = 8: No kicker (and they need a kicker).

SPEED = 5: Only two (both linebackers) with enough speed to get noted by the recruiting services.

TRIGGER = 0: Only one QB, and not rated by either service.

JUMBO =6: All four of the OL recruits are 275 or greater; two of the six DL recruits make it into the 250+ range.

NEEDS = 8:

Offensive Line = 5: As noted, all 4 OL recruits hit 275+ and two are rated. Looks like a very good group.
Running Back = 2: Did not get that baby bull that Tavani needs to make his leather helmet offense go. Did however, land the heir apparent to Joe Russo at fullback.
Wide Receiver = 1: Four rather small wideouts without ratings. Look a lot like the recently graduated group that they will be replacing, many of whom reached their senior year without earning a letter, but who played well at the end of their careers.

Patsy Points to date:

1. Fordham 71
2. Lafayette 58

This rival and scout stuff is useless, you can create your own profile on these websites so it takes nothing to have one. I agree with Fordham the only number you can assign to this class is 75%, the number of kids we wanted that we got, and you know this staff aims high with recruits.

[carney2]

This rival and scout stuff is useless, you can create your own profile on these websites so it takes nothing to have one. I agree with Fordham the only number you can assign to this class is 75%, the number of kids we wanted that we got, and you know this staff aims high with recruits.


I know you're the curmudgeon, carney, but still ...

what your argument really says is that they didn't target the right kids right from the get-go since it sounds like whatever kids they targeted pretty much all signed. That's a remarkable stat (75%). Combine that with the fact that at this level Rivals, Scout and others are a hair above worthless imo and I think you should be VERY pleased as a Lafayette fan. Or at least the non-curmudgeonly Pard fans should be pleased.

All true - particularly the curmudgeon part. My meager defense is that I am attempting to use objective, verifiable data as much as possible. If it comes down to homer opinions of how well each team did, all seven get 100 Patsy Points and we all go home.

By the way, if you check last year and the way things are starting out this year you will find

Those with lesser numbers of Patsy Points state that "the recruiting services are worthless and everyone knows it."

while

Those at the top say "See how well we did - and the recruiting service stars prove it."

Funny how that works.

[Fordham]

...Combine that with the fact that at this level Rivals, Scout and others are a hair above worthless imo and I think you should be VERY pleased as a Lafayette fan ...



By the way, if you check last year and the way things are starting out this year you will find

Those with lesser numbers of Patsy Points state that "the recruiting services are worthless and everyone knows it."

while

Those at the top say "See how well we did - and the recruiting service stars prove it."

Funny how that works.

xconfusedx

btw, fair enough on the objective/verifiable date comment. It's just very tough to do that/rely on it at a top 20 BCS program level, let alone an FCS-PL one. The thing I would ask is how accurate do you think the 75% number is? If he's a complete, no-bs, tell it like it is guy, that's an incredible success rate. Otherwise, it would obviously be easy to put out numbers like that since there's no way to check them. Assuming you guys feel you can trust that number, that would be enough for me (if I were a Pard fan) to label this class a run-away success.

[carney2]

xconfusedxThe thing I would ask is how accurate do you think the 75% number is? If he's a complete, no-bs, tell it like it is guy, that's an incredible success rate. Otherwise, it would obviously be easy to put out numbers like that since there's no way to check them. Assuming you guys feel you can trust that number, that would be enough for me (if I were a Pard fan) to label this class a run-away success.

Over the past few years I think that Uncle Frankie has learned how to talk in CoachSpeak. In other words, He can now duck a question with the best of them.

On the other hand, he has always been a tell-it-like-it-is straight shooter. I, for one, am taking his 75% statement to the bank as 100% accurate and I doubt if you will find anyone familiar with Leopard football who would not say the same.

The 75% statement may or may not raise this group to a new level, but it is not part of the Patsy Ratings methodology. To change things to include coach's statements, information from sources not considered for all schools and/or opinions from well placed sources is not only changing the rules in the middle of the game, but is unfair to the schools that do not have an Andy, a RichH or a Fordham trumpeting their cause.

[Franks Tanks]

Over the past few years I think that Uncle Frankie has learned how to talk in CoachSpeak. In other words, He can now duck a question with the best of them.

On the other hand, he has always been a tell-it-like-it-is straight shooter. I, for one, am taking his 75% statement to the bank as 100% accurate and I doubt if you will find anyone familiar with Leopard football who would not say the same.

The 75% statement may or may not raise this group to a new level, but it is not part of the Patsy Ratings methodology. To change things to include coach's statements, information from sources not considered for all schools and/or opinions from well placed sources is not only changing the rules in the middle of the game, but is unfair to the schools that do not have an Andy, a RichH or a Fordham trumpeting their cause.

This is true Carney who knows what the real number is, but if nothing else you do a good job attempting to quantify something that is really more art than science. Recruits have to have the proper measurables such as proper height, weight, speed, and strength but after that its a lot about a coaches gut feeling and the kind of impression the young man makes on him--somthing that is just impossible to rank or measure.

[colorless raider]

Not to jump the gun but I am impressed by the youtube films put up by LFN. Could it be that the Mtn hawks:D out did the Pards???

[Uncle Buck]

Alex Rivas from Long Island is a heck of a player. I would have loved to see Hofstra land him as a FB. He is strong as an ox and a heck of an athlete on offense or defense.

[Fordham]

The 75% statement may or may not raise this group to a new level, but it is not part of the Patsy Ratings methodology. To change things to include coach's statements, information from sources not considered for all schools and/or opinions from well placed sources is not only changing the rules in the middle of the game, but is unfair to the schools that do not have an Andy, a RichH or a Fordham trumpeting their cause.
Not challenging the Patsie rating ... just your personal opinion on the class.

[Franks Tanks]

Not to jump the gun but I am impressed by the youtube films put up by LFN. Could it be that the Mtn hawks:D out did the Pards???

If you judge recruits on 30 second youtube clips xeyebrowx

[Andy]

Alex Rivas from Long Island is a heck of a player. I would have loved to see Hofstra land him as a FB. He is strong as an ox and a heck of an athlete on offense or defense.

Sounds great, Uncle Buck! We're real happy Alex chose the Pards. So far they've slotted him at fullback which has a traditional blocking role in the LC offense. He may be an upgrade in rushing capability, in which case an increase in carries may be in order. He'll definitely be thrown to a couple times a game. I'm looking forward to watching him on STs this fall.

[colorless raider]

If you judge recruits on 30 second youtube clips xeyebrowx

Well it's all we have to go on for now. The real verdict is usually in by their junior year.

[carney2]

Not to jump the gun but I am impressed by the youtube films put up by LFN. Could it be that the Mtn hawks:D out did the Pards???

It's possible. Don't count out 'gate and even, rumor has it, Georgetown at this point.

[Tribe4SF]

The ratings are fine as a way to compare teams within the Patriot League, but the larger concern has to be how the league is stacking up against others in FCS. On that front, the PL appears to be continuing to lose ground.

[Franks Tanks]

The ratings are fine as a way to compare teams within the Patriot League, but the larger concern has to be how the league is stacking up against others in FCS. On that front, the PL appears to be continuing to lose ground.

Well with AI's continuing to rise and no change in our aid structure things arent going to change overnight. I would love to see how the so called experts ranked some of the classes that turned out to be some of the best PL team such as the Lehigh teams of the late 90's or 2003 Colgate. The PL seems to get more kids who are projects. Such as linemen who need to gain some weight or skill guys deemed to slow or small. It is near impossible to take a quick look at our recruiting classes as make an educated decision on how good they are. But one thing is sure we need a playoff win this year!!!

[Tribe4SF]

Well with AI's continuing to rise and no change in our aid structure things arent going to change overnight. I would love to see how the so called experts ranked some of the classes that turned out to be some of the best PL team such as the Lehigh teams of the late 90's or 2003 Colgate. The PL seems to get more kids who are projects. Such as linemen who need to gain some weight or skill guys deemed to slow or small. It is near impossible to take a quick look at our recruiting classes as make an educated decision on how good they are. But one thing is sure we need a playoff win this year!!!

You're right that it's difficult to project how good a class will be, but the talent disparity is undeniable. As far as that playoff win goes, with the PL champ likely to continue drawing one of the better CAA teams, the job ain't getting any easier.

The AI is a real factor, but most top prospects in the Northeast and Mid-Atlantic who could qualify don't seem to even be considering PL schools these days. Time was that many W&M targets would have a PL school or two on their short list, and that's not the case anymore. The league needs to address the aid structure pronto.

[carney2]

Not challenging the Patsie rating ... just your personal opinion on the class.

I understand, but KenZ has beat on me long and hard, so I have a thick skin. The abuse that I have gotten on this board for my opinions of this class pale next to what I have endured on the Lafayette site.

One more (I wish that I could say last) time, let me elaborate on my opinion:

This is not a bad group. I have been accused of totally denigrating and bad mouthing the class of 2012. Not true.

The pluses:

The biggest need was OL. This appears to be a very good group and in my opinion, this need has been filled.

The coaches say that they were looking for linebackers. This confirms a suspicion that many of us had last year when the superb starting three played almost non-stop. The LBs may be the best position group in this class.

Although the DL recruits bring the total number at this position to something like 16, there are 3 or 4 in this group who could easily rise above the pack.

Andy says that this is a good, although smallish, group of WRs, although there is nothing in the more objective portions of the Patsy Ratings criteria to bear this out. Realistically, this group only needs to fill in around the 3 top notch WRS in last year's class, so...maybe.

Minuses:

Frank did not get that large, mobile running back a'la Jonathon Hurt or Joe McCourt that he needs to make his smash mouth offense go. Average to undersized backs between the tackles make those OL recruits even more critical.

IMO they need a kicker and did not get one. Last year's punter graduated and the field goal kicker has questionable range.

No 2-star recruits. There is no one who leaps off the page and looks really a cut above special coming out of the gate.

33% fewer Rated recruits than last year. I realize that the recruiting services are flawed, but you would like to believe that your team got a lot of guys that were truly coveted by others. When that number goes down by 33% it can't be good.

So what:

They only got one QB. Some people on the Lafayette board love him, but again there is nothing in the Patsy Points criteria to justify that level of affection. Realistically, he starts at number six on the depth chart and none of the 5 in front of him will be seniors.

SUMMARY:

If you think that the Pards stubbed their toe and will be turning south in future Patriot League races, think again. This group will keep them in the hunt. Squawks, Raiders, Rams, beware: you are still going to have to fight your way through Easton if you want to put your hands on the trophy.

And now for the point that everyone seems to blow right by when they pick up their lead pipes, rebar and baseball bats to beat me about the head and shoulders over this:

This group, though good enough to maintain the Leopards at or near the top of the Patriot League is, in my opinion, not good enough to take them to the next level.

Next level? What is the next level?

Pretty simple, really. Tavani has talked about it frequently and my fellow alums and I have beaten it to death on the Lafayette board. It comes down to three things:

CLOSE THE GAP WITH THE IVIES! It is a well known fact that Lafayette is the whipping boy, the guaranteed homecoming game if you will, for most Ivy League schools not located in Manhattan. Four wins in over 125 years of trying vs. Princeton is only the tip of the iceberg. It is long past being an embarrassment, particularly when you note that many of our Patriot League brethren seem to hold their own against these same teams. Not only does this recruiting class not show any promise of bridging that gap, but with the new "don't need no stinkin' football scholarships" financial aid policy beginning at many Ivy schools the gulf just got wider. Declining quantities of 1-star recruits ain't gonna get it done when the Ivies regualrly steal recruits from legitimate FBS powers.

BECOME COMPETITIVE IN THE FCS PLAYOFFS! Before my fellow Pards begin the "we hung tough against Delaware and Appalachian State a few years ago" mantra, I point out that the record is a not surprising 0-3. Most football observers consider the Patriot League a one-and-done conference when it comes to the playoffs. Frank Tavani has stated a goal of winning some playoff games, and he has done it more than once. Does this group of 1-star and no-star recruits stand a reasonable chance of going toe to toe with the FCS large state university big kids that sign very few high school kids that are not rated as a big deal by the recruiting services, and feast on FBS leftovers and transfers? Get real.

FISHER STADIUM! The Taj maFootball was supposed to be a can't miss recruiting tool that would attract the best and brightest in pads. We find however, that the first class recruited with the 100% completed facilities contains few, if any, obvious "stars," and is of leser quality than the previous year based on the objective criteria used in the Patsy Ratings. Someone on the Lafayette board responded to this comment with "So we shouldn't have built it then?!" An obvious case of someone who hadn't actually read what was written and digested the information. My point is that I expected better. Frank says that he closed 75% of the kids who visited. A remarkable statistic. I guess that I'm saying, and based on the objective information available, the wrong kids visited.

I am reminded of two football coaches in years past:

Bill Russo of Lafayette entered every season with a goal of having a winning season. 6-5 was a good year for Billy. Tavani has raised the bar. Being competitive in the Patriot League, although a dream only 5 or 6 years ago, is just no longer good enough.

Back in the 70s Joe Paterno got a solicitation from the football program at Brown, his alma mater. They wanted him to join them in making the program "competitive." He threw it away. "If being competitive is all they want to achieve, I won't be a part of it."

Paraphrasing Robert Browning: "A man's reach should exceed his grasp." The Pards have thankfully gotten to the point where Patriot League competitiveness is now within their grasp. It's time to focus on the reach thing.

[Franks Tanks]

I understand, but KenZ has beat on me long and hard, so I have a thick skin. The abuse that I have gotten on this board for my opinions of this class pale next to what I have endured on the Lafayette site.

One more (I wish that I could say last) time, let me elaborate on my opinion:

This is not a bad group. I have been accused of totally denigrating and bad mouthing the class of 2012. Not true.

The pluses:

The biggest need was OL. This appears to be a very good group and in my opinion, this need has been filled.

The coaches say that they were looking for linebackers. This confirms a suspicion that many of us had last year when the superb starting three played almost non-stop. The LBs may be the best position group in this class.

Although the DL recruits bring the total number at this position to something like 16, there are 3 or 4 in this group who could easily rise above the pack.

Andy says that this is a good, although smallish, group of WRs, although there is nothing in the more objective portions of the Patsy Ratings criteria to bear this out. Realistically, this group only needs to fill in around the 3 top notch WRS in last year's class, so...maybe.

Minuses:

Frank did not get that large, mobile running back a'la Jonathon Hurt or Joe McCourt that he needs to make his smash mouth offense go. Average to undersized backs between the tackles make those OL recruits even more critical.

IMO they need a kicker and did not get one. Last year's punter graduated and the field goal kicker has questionable range.

No 2-star recruits. There is no one who leaps off the page and looks really a cut above special coming out of the gate.

33% fewer Rated recruits than last year. I realize that the recruiting services are flawed, but you would like to believe that your team got a lot of guys that were truly coveted by others. When that number goes down by 33% it can't be good.

So what:

They only got one QB. Some people on the Lafayette board love him, but again there is nothing in the Patsy Points criteria to justify that level of affection. Realistically, he starts at number six on the depth chart and none of the 5 in front of him will be seniors.

SUMMARY:

If you think that the Pards stubbed their toe and will be turning south in future Patriot League races, think again. This group will keep them in the hunt. Squawks, Raiders, Rams, beware: you are still going to have to fight your way through Easton if you want to put your hands on the trophy.

And now for the point that everyone seems to blow right by when they pick up their lead pipes, rebar and baseball bats to beat me about the head and shoulders over this:

This group, though good enough to maintain the Leopards at or near the top of the Patriot League is, in my opinion, not good enough to take them to the next level.

Next level? What is the next level?

Pretty simple, really. Tavani has talked about it frequently and my fellow alums and I have beaten it to death on the Lafayette board. It comes down to three things:

CLOSE THE GAP WITH THE IVIES! It is a well known fact that Lafayette is the whipping boy, the guaranteed homecoming game if you will, for most Ivy League schools not located in Manhattan. Four wins in over 125 years of trying vs. Princeton is only the tip of the iceberg. It is long past being an embarrassment, particularly when you note that many of our Patriot League brethren seem to hold their own against these same teams. Not only does this recruiting class not show any promise of bridging that gap, but with the new "don't need no stinkin' football scholarships" financial aid policy beginning at many Ivy schools the gulf just got wider. Declining quantities of 1-star recruits ain't gonna get it done when the Ivies regualrly steal recruits from legitimate FBS powers.

BECOME COMPETITIVE IN THE FCS PLAYOFFS! Before my fellow Pards begin the "we hung tough against Delaware and Appalachian State a few years ago" mantra, I point out that the record is a not surprising 0-3. Most football observers consider the Patriot League a one-and-done conference when it comes to the playoffs. Frank Tavani has stated a goal of winning some playoff games, and he has done it more than once. Does this group of 1-star and no-star recruits stand a reasonable chance of going toe to toe with the FCS large state university big kids that sign very few high school kids that are not rated as a big deal by the recruiting services, and feast on FBS leftovers and transfers? Get real.

FISHER STADIUM! The Taj maFootball was supposed to be a can't miss recruiting tool that would attract the best and brightest in pads. We find however, that the first class recruited with the 100% completed facilities contains few, if any, obvious "stars," and is of leser quality than the previous year based on the objective criteria used in the Patsy Ratings. Someone on the Lafayette board responded to this comment with "So we shouldn't have built it then?!" An obvious case of someone who hadn't actually read what was written and digested the information. My point is that I expected better. Frank says that he closed 75% of the kids who visited. A remarkable statistic. I guess that I'm saying, and based on the objective information available, the wrong kids visited.

I am reminded of two football coaches in years past:

Bill Russo of Lafayette entered every season with a goal of having a winning season. 6-5 was a good year for Billy. Tavani has raised the bar. Being competitive in the Patriot League, although a dream only 5 or 6 years ago, is just no longer good enough.

Back in the 70s Joe Paterno got a solicitation from the football program at Brown, his alma mater. They wanted him to join them in making the program "competitive." He threw it away. "If being competitive is all they want to achieve, I won't be a part of it."

Paraphrasing Robert Browning: "A man's reach should exceed his grasp." The Pards have thankfully gotten to the point where Patriot League competitiveness is now within their grasp. It's time to focus on the reach thing.

I agree with you carney--we cant expect fundamental changes in who we recruit unless we make fundamental changes in our policies. A PL team gets "lucky" now and then and put together a Colgate type run in the playoffs, or the Lehigh string of seasons from a few years ago. These are more exceptions than the norm. I think our recruits have remained pretty consistent over the last 20 years on a league wide basis. Was any given team in the league more or less competetive against the likes of a Delware or Umass 10 or 15 or 20 years ago--Im not so sure (except full scholly Holy Cross of course)

[Uncle Buck]

Sounds great, Uncle Buck! We're real happy Alex chose the Pards. So far they've slotted him at fullback which has a traditional blocking role in the LC offense. He may be an upgrade in rushing capability, in which case an increase in carries may be in order. He'll definitely be thrown to a couple times a game. I'm looking forward to watching him on STs this fall.

Like i said, i was really disappointed that Hoftsra didn't land him. We had a great Long Island recruiting class and he would have made an ideal FB. Once he is acclimated to college ball, i think the kid will be a bull for you.

[PLLB]

The AI is a real factor, but most top prospects in the Northeast and Mid-Atlantic who could qualify don't seem to even be considering PL schools these days. Time was that many W&M targets would have a PL school or two on their short list, and that's not the case anymore. The league needs to address the aid structure pronto.

thanks captain obvious

[Tribe4SF]

The AI is a real factor, but most top prospects in the Northeast and Mid-Atlantic who could qualify don't seem to even be considering PL schools these days. Time was that many W&M targets would have a PL school or two on their short list, and that's not the case anymore. The league needs to address the aid structure pronto.

thanks captain obvious

Burr in your saddle there, pal?

[ngineer]

I understand, but KenZ has beat on me long and hard, so I have a thick skin. The abuse that I have gotten on this board for my opinions of this class pale next to what I have endured on the Lafayette site.

One more (I wish that I could say last) time, let me elaborate on my opinion:

This is not a bad group. I have been accused of totally denigrating and bad mouthing the class of 2012. Not true.

The pluses:

The biggest need was OL. This appears to be a very good group and in my opinion, this need has been filled.

The coaches say that they were looking for linebackers. This confirms a suspicion that many of us had last year when the superb starting three played almost non-stop. The LBs may be the best position group in this class.

Although the DL recruits bring the total number at this position to something like 16, there are 3 or 4 in this group who could easily rise above the pack.

Andy says that this is a good, although smallish, group of WRs, although there is nothing in the more objective portions of the Patsy Ratings criteria to bear this out. Realistically, this group only needs to fill in around the 3 top notch WRS in last year's class, so...maybe.

Minuses:

Frank did not get that large, mobile running back a'la Jonathon Hurt or Joe McCourt that he needs to make his smash mouth offense go. Average to undersized backs between the tackles make those OL recruits even more critical.

IMO they need a kicker and did not get one. Last year's punter graduated and the field goal kicker has questionable range.

No 2-star recruits. There is no one who leaps off the page and looks really a cut above special coming out of the gate.

33% fewer Rated recruits than last year. I realize that the recruiting services are flawed, but you would like to believe that your team got a lot of guys that were truly coveted by others. When that number goes down by 33% it can't be good.

So what:

They only got one QB. Some people on the Lafayette board love him, but again there is nothing in the Patsy Points criteria to justify that level of affection. Realistically, he starts at number six on the depth chart and none of the 5 in front of him will be seniors.

SUMMARY:

If you think that the Pards stubbed their toe and will be turning south in future Patriot League races, think again. This group will keep them in the hunt. Squawks, Raiders, Rams, beware: you are still going to have to fight your way through Easton if you want to put your hands on the trophy.

And now for the point that everyone seems to blow right by when they pick up their lead pipes, rebar and baseball bats to beat me about the head and shoulders over this:

This group, though good enough to maintain the Leopards at or near the top of the Patriot League is, in my opinion, not good enough to take them to the next level.

Next level? What is the next level?

Pretty simple, really. Tavani has talked about it frequently and my fellow alums and I have beaten it to death on the Lafayette board. It comes down to three things:

CLOSE THE GAP WITH THE IVIES! It is a well known fact that Lafayette is the whipping boy, the guaranteed homecoming game if you will, for most Ivy League schools not located in Manhattan. Four wins in over 125 years of trying vs. Princeton is only the tip of the iceberg. It is long past being an embarrassment, particularly when you note that many of our Patriot League brethren seem to hold their own against these same teams. Not only does this recruiting class not show any promise of bridging that gap, but with the new "don't need no stinkin' football scholarships" financial aid policy beginning at many Ivy schools the gulf just got wider. Declining quantities of 1-star recruits ain't gonna get it done when the Ivies regualrly steal recruits from legitimate FBS powers.

BECOME COMPETITIVE IN THE FCS PLAYOFFS! Before my fellow Pards begin the "we hung tough against Delaware and Appalachian State a few years ago" mantra, I point out that the record is a not surprising 0-3. Most football observers consider the Patriot League a one-and-done conference when it comes to the playoffs. Frank Tavani has stated a goal of winning some playoff games, and he has done it more than once. Does this group of 1-star and no-star recruits stand a reasonable chance of going toe to toe with the FCS large state university big kids that sign very few high school kids that are not rated as a big deal by the recruiting services, and feast on FBS leftovers and transfers? Get real.

FISHER STADIUM! The Taj maFootball was supposed to be a can't miss recruiting tool that would attract the best and brightest in pads. We find however, that the first class recruited with the 100% completed facilities contains few, if any, obvious "stars," and is of leser quality than the previous year based on the objective criteria used in the Patsy Ratings. Someone on the Lafayette board responded to this comment with "So we shouldn't have built it then?!" An obvious case of someone who hadn't actually read what was written and digested the information. My point is that I expected better. Frank says that he closed 75% of the kids who visited. A remarkable statistic. I guess that I'm saying, and based on the objective information available, the wrong kids visited.

I am reminded of two football coaches in years past:

Bill Russo of Lafayette entered every season with a goal of having a winning season. 6-5 was a good year for Billy. Tavani has raised the bar. Being competitive in the Patriot League, although a dream only 5 or 6 years ago, is just no longer good enough.

Back in the 70s Joe Paterno got a solicitation from the football program at Brown, his alma mater. They wanted him to join them in making the program "competitive." He threw it away. "If being competitive is all they want to achieve, I won't be a part of it."

Paraphrasing Robert Browning: "A man's reach should exceed his grasp." The Pards have thankfully gotten to the point where Patriot League competitiveness is now within their grasp. It's time to focus on the reach thing.

Enjoy your analysis..My only query regards the 'pards problems with the Ivies over the years..Why, when you guys have established yourselves as one of the powers? Your personnel is the same that kicked our butt for four years, now, yet we beat the Ivies with regularity...and frequently the same teams you lose to (i.e. Harvard, Princeton...) So is it really the players, or is it the way the opponents are approached?

[Pards Rule]

Ngineer...I am still trying to figure that out. So is Frank, I'm sure. I'm with Carney on this kick and his analysis is spot on! Hey we won 50% of the Ivy games last year. I know, one was against the Lions...

[Franks Tanks]

Enjoy your analysis..My only query regards the 'pards problems with the Ivies over the years..Why, when you guys have established yourselves as one of the powers? Your personnel is the same that kicked our butt for four years, now, yet we beat the Ivies with regularity...and frequently the same teams you lose to (i.e. Harvard, Princeton...) So is it really the players, or is it the way the opponents are approached?

There is a curse over us, especially with Princeton I cant explain it. We beat Penn last year (somehow) and Harvard has been really strong lately so you can blame that on matchup problems perhaps. Princeton is the most perplexing--they spank us even when we have the better team in most peoples estimation and end up having a better season. We see those damm orange and black Michigan wanna be helmets (jk i know thay had em first) and we freeze.

[carney2]

My only query regards the 'pards problems with the Ivies over the years..Why, when you guys have established yourselves as one of the powers? Your personnel is the same that kicked our butt for four years, now, yet we beat the Ivies with regularity...and frequently the same teams you lose to (i.e. Harvard, Princeton...) So is it really the players, or is it the way the opponents are approached?

I have contended for years that it is the Curse of Lord Cornwallis. He looked out his window at Yorktown and saw the French fleet, the French troops and the marquis de Lafayette. He cursed the last of these by saying "...a curse on you, your descendants and anything that bears your name." The rest, as they say, is history. My Pard brethren call me lunatic and curmudgeon, but I think that the facts speak for themselves.

[Franks Tanks]

I have contended for years that it is the Curse of Lord Cornwallis. He looked out his window at Yorktown and saw the French fleet, the French troops and the marquis de Lafayette. He cursed the last of these by saying "...a curse on you, your descendants and anything that bears your name." The rest, as they say, is history. My Pard brethren call me lunatic and curmudgeon, but I think that the facts speak for themselves.

I'm starting to agree with this more and more every year--we just always seem to find a way to lose or come out seemingly unprepared for the Ivy games.

[Pard4Life]

Ngineer...I am still trying to figure that out. So is Frank, I'm sure. I'm with Carney on this kick and his analysis is spot on! Hey we won 50% of the Ivy games last year. I know, one was against the Lions...

We don't beat the Ivies because:

1) We always do something stupid to lose us the game
2) Coaches do something stupid (i.e. Tavani taking blame for playing maurer vs. princeton in 2005)
3) The other team is coming into the game with some intangible.

The Red Sox never won the World Series because they were poorly run and had poor management at the helm. Once you got a dedicated owner with a talented GM, they started dominating. And stupidity. Once you think there is a curse, it affects your line of thinking and decisions. Same thing with the Cubs (although that 2003 meltdown was bizzare).

Frankly it's annoying we lose to them but I am not that obsessed with it as crazy carney. It should not be our goal to beat them. Diminish our games with them, which we should, and play other regional opponents. The goal is to win the PL, beat Lehigh, win playoff games.

[carney2]

I am not that obsessed with it as crazy carney.

It's not easy being me.

[Pard4Life]

I understand, but KenZ has beat on me long and hard, so I have a thick skin. The abuse that I have gotten on this board for my opinions of this class pale next to what I have endured on the Lafayette site.

One more (I wish that I could say last) time, let me elaborate on my opinion:

This is not a bad group. I have been accused of totally denigrating and bad mouthing the class of 2012. Not true.

The pluses:

The biggest need was OL. This appears to be a very good group and in my opinion, this need has been filled.

The coaches say that they were looking for linebackers. This confirms a suspicion that many of us had last year when the superb starting three played almost non-stop. The LBs may be the best position group in this class.

Although the DL recruits bring the total number at this position to something like 16, there are 3 or 4 in this group who could easily rise above the pack.

Andy says that this is a good, although smallish, group of WRs, although there is nothing in the more objective portions of the Patsy Ratings criteria to bear this out. Realistically, this group only needs to fill in around the 3 top notch WRS in last year's class, so...maybe.

Minuses:

Frank did not get that large, mobile running back a'la Jonathon Hurt or Joe McCourt that he needs to make his smash mouth offense go. Average to undersized backs between the tackles make those OL recruits even more critical.

IMO they need a kicker and did not get one. Last year's punter graduated and the field goal kicker has questionable range.

No 2-star recruits. There is no one who leaps off the page and looks really a cut above special coming out of the gate.

33% fewer Rated recruits than last year. I realize that the recruiting services are flawed, but you would like to believe that your team got a lot of guys that were truly coveted by others. When that number goes down by 33% it can't be good.

So what:

They only got one QB. Some people on the Lafayette board love him, but again there is nothing in the Patsy Points criteria to justify that level of affection. Realistically, he starts at number six on the depth chart and none of the 5 in front of him will be seniors.

SUMMARY:

If you think that the Pards stubbed their toe and will be turning south in future Patriot League races, think again. This group will keep them in the hunt. Squawks, Raiders, Rams, beware: you are still going to have to fight your way through Easton if you want to put your hands on the trophy.

And now for the point that everyone seems to blow right by when they pick up their lead pipes, rebar and baseball bats to beat me about the head and shoulders over this:

This group, though good enough to maintain the Leopards at or near the top of the Patriot League is, in my opinion, not good enough to take them to the next level.

Next level? What is the next level?

Pretty simple, really. Tavani has talked about it frequently and my fellow alums and I have beaten it to death on the Lafayette board. It comes down to three things:

CLOSE THE GAP WITH THE IVIES! It is a well known fact that Lafayette is the whipping boy, the guaranteed homecoming game if you will, for most Ivy League schools not located in Manhattan. Four wins in over 125 years of trying vs. Princeton is only the tip of the iceberg. It is long past being an embarrassment, particularly when you note that many of our Patriot League brethren seem to hold their own against these same teams. Not only does this recruiting class not show any promise of bridging that gap, but with the new "don't need no stinkin' football scholarships" financial aid policy beginning at many Ivy schools the gulf just got wider. Declining quantities of 1-star recruits ain't gonna get it done when the Ivies regualrly steal recruits from legitimate FBS powers.

BECOME COMPETITIVE IN THE FCS PLAYOFFS! Before my fellow Pards begin the "we hung tough against Delaware and Appalachian State a few years ago" mantra, I point out that the record is a not surprising 0-3. Most football observers consider the Patriot League a one-and-done conference when it comes to the playoffs. Frank Tavani has stated a goal of winning some playoff games, and he has done it more than once. Does this group of 1-star and no-star recruits stand a reasonable chance of going toe to toe with the FCS large state university big kids that sign very few high school kids that are not rated as a big deal by the recruiting services, and feast on FBS leftovers and transfers? Get real.

FISHER STADIUM! The Taj maFootball was supposed to be a can't miss recruiting tool that would attract the best and brightest in pads. We find however, that the first class recruited with the 100% completed facilities contains few, if any, obvious "stars," and is of leser quality than the previous year based on the objective criteria used in the Patsy Ratings. Someone on the Lafayette board responded to this comment with "So we shouldn't have built it then?!" An obvious case of someone who hadn't actually read what was written and digested the information. My point is that I expected better. Frank says that he closed 75% of the kids who visited. A remarkable statistic. I guess that I'm saying, and based on the objective information available, the wrong kids visited.

I am reminded of two football coaches in years past:

Bill Russo of Lafayette entered every season with a goal of having a winning season. 6-5 was a good year for Billy. Tavani has raised the bar. Being competitive in the Patriot League, although a dream only 5 or 6 years ago, is just no longer good enough.

Back in the 70s Joe Paterno got a solicitation from the football program at Brown, his alma mater. They wanted him to join them in making the program "competitive." He threw it away. "If being competitive is all they want to achieve, I won't be a part of it."

Paraphrasing Robert Browning: "A man's reach should exceed his grasp." The Pards have thankfully gotten to the point where Patriot League competitiveness is now within their grasp. It's time to focus on the reach thing.

I don't agree with much of what you say here. Our class is fine and the facilities are doing their job. When coach invited 39 players and 28 accepted offers, that's pretty good. He apparently had a focus area and got it done. Perhaps we did not get many of the impact players you are looking for is because we are primed at many of our positions. We have plenty of RBs, powerful and fast. When we need a bruiser, we get a dominating fullback (i.e. this year for instance). McCourt chewed up yards, but he also was not very fast, remember. Instead we rotate 4-5 guys in, dispensing the beatings, and who have more speed, agility.

Our kicker is FINE. Remember, he missed many kicks early because he is a freshman. AND he did hit a clutch FG down the middle at Penn after missing two earlier. Sounds like our guy to me. Punter is fine too.

We have plenty of QBs.

I don't care how many highly-rated prospects we get. Look at Notre Dame this year!! I don't think Maurice Bennett was highly rated, nor Blake Costanzo.. and look how well they did. And McCourt..

As for the Ivies, who cares... see my above post.

The most important thing is 1) the character of the players... we have NO way of rating that 2) how well they play together as a team... we will not know that for awhile 3) leadership.. again, not for awhile.. and we can't rate that 4) coaching... we have an excellent staff that prepares the team well... heck we beat Lehigh!.. though you do have to shake your head at some of the running calls.

We can win a playoff game with our team... we just need not get an extremely high-seeded team. Appalachian St. won the title that year... UMass went to the final... and Delaware, we were just happy to be there.. These are ELITE teams... the envy of FCS.. we are not going to topple them easily... and nobody really has the past few years. I think we can avoid this scenario by going 9-2 and winning the PL.

We are not Florida, USC, or LSU, where we can get 4-5 star recruits at every position, every year. Players desperately want to play there. You are not going to see that at this level.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

You're right that it's difficult to project how good a class will be, but the talent disparity is undeniable. As far as that playoff win goes, with the PL champ likely to continue drawing one of the better CAA teams, the job ain't getting any easier.

The AI is a real factor, but most top prospects in the Northeast and Mid-Atlantic who could qualify don't seem to even be considering PL schools these days. Time was that many W&M targets would have a PL school or two on their short list, and that's not the case anymore. The league needs to address the aid structure pronto.

I really question these two statements. First of all, the "top prospects" aren't considering PL, Ivy OR CAA teams at all - they're considering Pitt, Penn State, Rutgers, BC, and UConn. I cannot emphasize enough that the emergence of two credible FBS teams in the backyard of our recruiting area and how that has affected everyone in our area. Walking on at Rutgers at one time was seen as laughable. Now, it's something kids actually want to do - and that affects things.

Second, I see NO evidence that kids are flocking to CAA teams over PL teams. It's basically the same-old same-old: they go head-to-head on some recruits, sometimes they go with the CAA team, other times with the PL team.

Where I do see a difference is the Ivies, and not just at H-Y-P. As they've opened up their checkbooks, recruits have flocked to their schools. The PL has always had problems recruiting from the Ivies, but this year it seems worse than usual. Additionally, H-Y-P are poaching better and better athletes from the Duke's, Stanford's, and Rice's of the world too.

I count 4 NJ players and 2 PA recruits on your recruiting list in 2008, and two are 5'11 runningbacks and a third is a 5'11 WR/DB. I'm sorry, but I don't see how that can be considered an "undeniable" talent gap - especially after seeing Fordham's strong class, and how at least two more good-looking classes in Lehigh and Colgate haven't even declared yet.

[ngineer]

Good points about the rise of Rutgers and UConn in recent years. We used to go head to head with these 'bigger schools' over many prospects. Additionally, Temple is starting to make noise-(3 Bethlehem Liberty players going to the Owls this year--one picking TU over JMU). Furthermore, the NEC teams, with their new scholarship programs are creating greater competition. Like I've said before, the pond we used to always fish in is getting smaller; therefore, we've had to go to other lakes down south, midwest, southwest..and even CA.

[Franks Tanks]

I really question these two statements. First of all, the "top prospects" aren't considering PL, Ivy OR CAA teams at all - they're considering Pitt, Penn State, Rutgers, BC, and UConn. I cannot emphasize enough that the emergence of two credible FBS teams in the backyard of our recruiting area and how that has affected everyone in our area. Walking on at Rutgers at one time was seen as laughable. Now, it's something kids actually want to do - and that affects things.

Second, I see NO evidence that kids are flocking to CAA teams over PL teams. It's basically the same-old same-old: they go head-to-head on some recruits, sometimes they go with the CAA team, other times with the PL team.

Where I do see a difference is the Ivies, and not just at H-Y-P. As they've opened up their checkbooks, recruits have flocked to their schools. The PL has always had problems recruiting from the Ivies, but this year it seems worse than usual. Additionally, H-Y-P are poaching better and better athletes from the Duke's, Stanford's, and Rice's of the world too.

I count 4 NJ players and 2 PA recruits on your recruiting list in 2008, and two are 5'11 runningbacks and a third is a 5'11 WR/DB. I'm sorry, but I don't see how that can be considered an "undeniable" talent gap - especially after seeing Fordham's strong class, and how at least two more good-looking classes in Lehigh and Colgate haven't even declared yet.

Agree 100% tried to give you some rep but it didnt work xeyebrowx, but your right on

[LBPop]

Agree 100% tried to give you some rep but it didnt work xeyebrowx, but your right on

xeekx xeekx xeekx Do I detect agreement between LU and LC fans???? Next you'll be telling me that Roger Clemens sent a Valentine to Brian McNamee...without Anthrax in the envelope. ;)

[Franks Tanks]

xeekx xeekx xeekx Do I detect agreement between LU and LC fans???? Next you'll be telling me that Roger Clemens sent a Valentine to Brian McNamee...without Anthrax in the envelope. ;)

HaHa--we are really only true adversaries once a year, otherwise mutual respect (sometimes)

[LUHawker]

HaHa--we are really only true adversaries once a year, otherwise mutual respect (sometimes)

It's a love-hate relationship. We love to hate LC and they love to hate us back. The funny thing about it is that without each other, there would be no Rivalry, so we have collectively figured out how to respectfully "hate" each other.

Just a quick funny story: I was at a church meeting regarding the baptism of my son and all of the attendees gave a quick background on themselves. One woman casually mentioned that she was affiliated with Lafayette. I just vicerally grunted and she immediately asked, Lehigh? We then shared a chuckle. It's fun to be part of such a special Rivalry.

[Tribe4SF]

I really question these two statements. First of all, the "top prospects" aren't considering PL, Ivy OR CAA teams at all - they're considering Pitt, Penn State, Rutgers, BC, and UConn. I cannot emphasize enough that the emergence of two credible FBS teams in the backyard of our recruiting area and how that has affected everyone in our area. Walking on at Rutgers at one time was seen as laughable. Now, it's something kids actually want to do - and that affects things.

Second, I see NO evidence that kids are flocking to CAA teams over PL teams. It's basically the same-old same-old: they go head-to-head on some recruits, sometimes they go with the CAA team, other times with the PL team.

Where I do see a difference is the Ivies, and not just at H-Y-P. As they've opened up their checkbooks, recruits have flocked to their schools. The PL has always had problems recruiting from the Ivies, but this year it seems worse than usual. Additionally, H-Y-P are poaching better and better athletes from the Duke's, Stanford's, and Rice's of the world too.

I count 4 NJ players and 2 PA recruits on your recruiting list in 2008, and two are 5'11 runningbacks and a third is a 5'11 WR/DB. I'm sorry, but I don't see how that can be considered an "undeniable" talent gap - especially after seeing Fordham's strong class, and how at least two more good-looking classes in Lehigh and Colgate haven't even declared yet.

I'm not sure what being 5'11" has to do with anything, but you're talking about Jonathan Grimes, Omar Francis and Brian Thompson. Grimes was the South Jersey RB of the Year, and an all-state pick, gaining just shy of 2,000 yards, and scoring 33 tds. He's a good example of a kid who, historically, I would have expected to be looking at PL teams. High GPA and test scores...concert pianist.

Francis is another kid I would have expected to be looking Patriot. He did consider Georgetown, but they weren't part of his final decision. Two-time all Jersey DB with great size and speed, and 1850 on SAT.

That covers the three 5'11" guys, all of whom are very fast. The other three from up your way are Mike Salazar, 6'5" 296 OT from Jersey (All-State/ Governor's Bowl/ North-South Game); Rob Gumbita, 6'4" 290 OT from PA (All-State/Big 33 Team); and Nolan Kearney, 6'4" 230 QB from PA (All-State/ All S.E. PA). Not sure if being over 5'11" makes them any better than the other three, but they each have top credentials, and would be likely PL qualifiers.

Moreover, my comments were not just about W&M, but rather the CAA as a whole. When all is out on the PL classes we can take a look, and I expect we will find a more than discernable talent gap.

[Pard94]

I'm not sure what being 5'11" has to do with anything, but you're talking about Jonathan Grimes, Omar Francis and Brian Thompson. Grimes was the South Jersey RB of the Year, and an all-state pick, gaining just shy of 2,000 yards, and scoring 33 tds. He's a good example of a kid who, historically, I would have expected to be looking at PL teams. High GPA and test scores...concert pianist.

Francis is another kid I would have expected to be looking Patriot. He did consider Georgetown, but they weren't part of his final decision. Two-time all Jersey DB with great size and speed, and 1850 on SAT.

That covers the three 5'11" guys, all of whom are very fast. The other three from up your way are Mike Salazar, 6'5" 296 OT from Jersey (All-State/ Governor's Bowl/ North-South Game); Rob Gumbita, 6'4" 290 OT from PA (All-State/Big 33 Team); and Nolan Kearney, 6'4" 230 QB from PA (All-State/ All S.E. PA). Not sure if being over 5'11" makes them any better than the other three, but they each have top credentials, and would be likely PL qualifiers.

Moreover, my comments were not just about W&M, but rather the CAA as a whole. When all is out on the PL classes we can take a look, and I expect we will find a more than discernable talent gap.

Wow Carney...five pages of comments with only two teams complete at this point. Quite the can of worms you have opened up here.xnodx

[LBPop]

Just a quick funny story: I was at a church meeting regarding the baptism of my son and all of the attendees gave a quick background on themselves. One woman casually mentioned that she was affiliated with Lafayette. I just vicerally grunted and she immediately asked, Lehigh? We then shared a chuckle. It's fun to be part of such a special Rivalry.

I have told this one before on this board, but a while back. My close friend and colleague is a Lehigh Alumnus. When LBKid went to Georgetown I asked my Lehigh friend for advice on the best route to Easton to see a game at Lafayette. His response: "Lafayette Sucks!" I told him that he did not answer my question and he responded, "That's all you're getting from me...Lafayette Sucks!" xlolx

[carney2]

Wow Carney...five pages of comments with only two teams complete at this point. Quite the can of worms you have opened up here.xnodx

I live to serve.

[ngineer]

It's a love-hate relationship. We love to hate LC and they love to hate us back. The funny thing about it is that without each other, there would be no Rivalry, so we have collectively figured out how to respectfully "hate" each other.

Just a quick funny story: I was at a church meeting regarding the baptism of my son and all of the attendees gave a quick background on themselves. One woman casually mentioned that she was affiliated with Lafayette. I just vicerally grunted and she immediately asked, Lehigh? We then shared a chuckle. It's fun to be part of such a special Rivalry.

I was at a mediation a few months ago and sat down across from opposing counsel, who was a woman. We had never met and to 'break the ice', so to speak, she commented on my "beautiful class ring" and asked to see it. I extended my hand and when she looked closer, I saw her eyes widen..I immediately said to her, "Lafayette?" To which she somewhat smiled and nodded. I sighed and said, "This is going to be long day", and we all chuckled....but the case did get settled, regardless. True professionals, able to put aside our personal jousts for the good our our clients!!

[carney2]

Personally, I find this whole Lafayette vs. Lehigh thing to be a bonding experience. Whenever I meet someone new who is of the Brown persuasion, we go through the usual jab and counter-jab routine, but somehow we have established a bond, a commonality of experience, that places our new acquaintanceship above the others that we will establish that day. Each of these institutions would be less without the other. It is a very special "hate."

[Lehigh74]

Personally, I find this whole Lafayette vs. Lehigh thing to be a bonding experience. Whenever I meet someone new who is of the Brown persuasion, we go through the usual jab and counter-jab routine, but somehow we have established a bond, a commonality of experience, that places our new acquaintanceship above the others that we will establish that day. Each of these institutions would be less without the other. It is a very special "hate."

Carney, as is usually the case, your comments are on the money. There are approximately 2000 colleges in the US and only a handful have a rivalry that compares to Lehigh / Lafayette. Alumni of the two schools are lucky to have the opportunity to be associated with such a special rivalry.