Georgetown Tops PL Academic Honor Roll

[DFW HOYA]

Hey, with the school's first one-win season in over 20 years, you have to look on the bright side, and here is one of them.

Patriot League Academic Honor Roll (players above a 3.2 average)

Georgetown: 36
Lafayette: 21
Bucknell: 20
Lehigh: 19
Holy Cross: 13
Fordham: 8
Colgate: 5

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/patr/sports/m-footbl/auto_pdf/FBallAHR12508.pdf

[JoltinJoe]

So those rumors about Georgetown's runaway grade inflation are true?xeyebrowx

[DetroitFlyer]

Congratulations to Georgetown!

[Seawolf97]

Congratulations Good Job !xthumbsupx

[Go...gate]

Hey, with the school's first one-win season in over 20 years, you have to look on the bright side, and here is one of them.

Patriot League Academic Honor Roll (players above a 3.2 average)

Georgetown: 36
Lafayette: 21
Bucknell: 20
Lehigh: 19
Holy Cross: 13
Fordham: 8
Colgate: 5

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/patr/sports/m-footbl/auto_pdf/FBallAHR12508.pdf


I wish our numbers were better than this.

[Franks Tanks]

I am always cautious with these lists. Does it really mean one school has much better student-athletes than another? Or does it mean that there is more grade inflation as some schools than others? I think a more useful stat is a comparison of the median GPA of the football team vs. the entire student population. If these numbers were close that is impressive. But overall good to see so many leopards on there.

[JoltinJoe]

I am always cautious with these lists. Does it really mean one school has much better student-athletes than another? Or does it mean that there is more grade inflation as some schools than others? I think a more useful stat is a comparison of the median GPA of the football team vs. the entire student population. If these numbers were close that is impressive. But overall good to see so many leopards on there.

I remember when I was a first-year law student becoming quite anxious about the number of students in my class with gaudy GPAs from some of America's best undergraduate schools (if you want to know how I knew what their undergraduate GPAs were, you never spent a day in law school).

Nonetheless, as the first semester progressed, I noticed that many of these perceived stars had pretty mediocre work habits: often unprepared for class and thus not capable of participating meaningfully in class discussions.

I frequently thought that if I had shown up to class for one of my undergraduate professors as unprepared as these students did in law school, I would have received a stern warning and a pretty poor grade.

And then after first semester exams, I realized that I was actually ranked higher than many of these students.

So, yes, I look at these lists with the same kind of suspicious eye that you do.

Edit -- Originally I thought that this was the honor roll for football only but the I saw this: "To be eligible for the Academic Honor Roll, a student-athlete must earn a 3.20 grade-point average in the fall semester and be awarded a varsity letter in one of the Patriot League's seven fall championship sports."

Since Georgetown and Fordham play football only in the PL, their numbers include football players only. This means all 36 Georgetown students on this list are football players; the runner-up, Lafayette, has 21 students coming from teams on all of its fall sports.

Sorry to be such a spoilsport but the Georgetown number just seems too high to me.

[Go...gate]

I remember when I was a first-year law student becoming quite anxious about the number of students in my class with gaudy GPAs from some of America's best undergraduate schools (if you want to know how I knew what their undergraduate GPAs were, you never spent a day in law school).

Nonetheless, as the first semester progressed, I noticed that many of these perceived stars had pretty mediocre work habits: often unprepared for class and thus not capable of participating meaningfully in class discussions.

I frequently thought that if I had shown up to class for one of my undergraduate professors as unprepared as these students did in law school, I would have received a stern warning and a pretty poor grade.

And then after first semester exams, I realized that I was actually ranked higher than many of these students.

So, yes, I look at these lists with the same kind of suspicious eye that you do.

Well said.

[LehighFan11]

To get a 3.2 GPA at georgetown is harder than getting a 3.2 GPA at lehigh, so that makes Georgetown's dominace even better. A better reflection of how strong the student athletes are at a school is to compare their GPA's to the total student population GPA. Either way you put it, congrats to Gtown.

[carney2]

Can they continue this however when they end up getting their brains smashed every Saturday in the fall?xsmiley_wix

[Franks Tanks]

To get a 3.2 GPA at georgetown is harder than getting a 3.2 GPA at lehigh, so that makes Georgetown's dominace even better. A better reflection of how strong the student athletes are at a school is to compare their GPA's to the total student population GPA. Either way you put it, congrats to Gtown.

Do you have emperical evidence of this? Also the Partiot League honor role is for a 3.2 GPA and a letter. Other schools could have also had guys with 3.2's that didnt get a letter.

Liek you said through the only way to really compare is FB team GPA vs general student GPA

[JoltinJoe]

To get a 3.2 GPA at georgetown is harder than getting a 3.2 GPA at lehigh, so that makes Georgetown's dominace even better. A better reflection of how strong the student athletes are at a school is to compare their GPA's to the total student population GPA. Either way you put it, congrats to Gtown.

That's probably not true.

I'm going to be blunt about this (or more blunt). I saw a Jesuit who taught me at Fordham, who later became President at two Jesuit colleges, at a Friendly Sons of St. Patrick Dinner a few years back.

He told me something startling: that 46% of the grades awarded at Georgetown were As or A-s. He was disappointed, because he felt Georgetown was the highest-ranked Jesuit institution and he said it should be demanding more of its talented students.

[Franks Tanks]

I remember when I was a first-year law student becoming quite anxious about the number of students in my class with gaudy GPAs from some of America's best undergraduate schools (if you want to know how I knew what their undergraduate GPAs were, you never spent a day in law school).

Nonetheless, as the first semester progressed, I noticed that many of these perceived stars had pretty mediocre work habits: often unprepared for class and thus not capable of participating meaningfully in class discussions.

I frequently thought that if I had shown up to class for one of my undergraduate professors as unprepared as these students did in law school, I would have received a stern warning and a pretty poor grade.

And then after first semester exams, I realized that I was actually ranked higher than many of these students.

So, yes, I look at these lists with the same kind of suspicious eye that you do.

Edit -- Originally I thought that this was the honor roll for football only but the I saw this: "To be eligible for the Academic Honor Roll, a student-athlete must earn a 3.20 grade-point average in the fall semester and be awarded a varsity letter in one of the Patriot League's seven fall championship sports."

Since Georgetown and Fordham play football only in the PL, their numbers include football players only. This means all 36 Georgetown students on this list are football players; the runner-up, Lafayette, has 21 students coming from teams on all of its fall sports.

Sorry to be such a spoilsport but the Georgetown number just seems too high to me.


Did you know everyone's GPA because they introduce themselves like this " Hi I am Joe Smith I went to Yale and graduated with a 3.9 in Political Science" ? I know those types.... xrolleyesx

[DC 'gater]

At least they're bringing it in the classroom.:D

[TheValleyRaider]

I wish our numbers were better than this.

Well, I can't speak to the other schools in the League, and I don't want to turn this into an academic difficulty contest, but I can say from recent experience that a 3.2 at Colgate is nothing to sneeze at. I worked rather hard in school (and am currently in a graduate program, so not a bad student if I do say so myself), and still came close to falling under a 3.2 for several semesters. My overall didn't get above a 3.2 fulltime until I was a Junior, and that's without having been a member of a varsity sport like Football.

Two of the guys on the list are SoAn, and if I remember correctly, the team's official tutor is a professor in that department, so you'll get a lot of SoAn majors on the team. Can't speak to the Art & Art History guy, but I can say it's something I wouldn't have had much success at. Even the two undeclared guys have been taking their CORE classes, which have the potential to be quite difficult.

The real point I'm trying to make is that it always seems as though Colgate has fewer people on these Academic Honor Roll lists than other schools in our conferences (Patriot League and ECAC), yet we still graduate a very high percentage of these kids. As much as I'd like to see more, I'd take this list only as a select group to whom I tip my proverbial cap for their fine work xpeacex

[Fordham]

Congrats G-town!

[Go...gate]

Well, I can't speak to the other schools in the League, and I don't want to turn this into an academic difficulty contest, but I can say from recent experience that a 3.2 at Colgate is nothing to sneeze at. I worked rather hard in school (and am currently in a graduate program, so not a bad student if I do say so myself), and still came close to falling under a 3.2 for several semesters. My overall didn't get above a 3.2 fulltime until I was a Junior, and that's without having been a member of a varsity sport like Football.

Two of the guys on the list are SoAn, and if I remember correctly, the team's official tutor is a professor in that department, so you'll get a lot of SoAn majors on the team. Can't speak to the Art & Art History guy, but I can say it's something I wouldn't have had much success at. Even the two undeclared guys have been taking their CORE classes, which have the potential to be quite difficult.

The real point I'm trying to make is that it always seems as though Colgate has fewer people on these Academic Honor Roll lists than other schools in our conferences (Patriot League and ECAC), yet we still graduate a very high percentage of these kids. As much as I'd like to see more, I'd take this list only as a select group to whom I tip my proverbial cap for their fine work xpeacex

Good observation.

[LehighFan11]

That's probably not true.

I'm going to be blunt about this (or more blunt). I saw a Jesuit who taught me at Fordham, who later became President at two Jesuit colleges, at a Friendly Sons of St. Patrick Dinner a few years back.

He told me something startling: that 46% of the grades awarded at Georgetown were As or A-s. He was disappointed, because he felt Georgetown was the highest-ranked Jesuit institution and he said it should be demanding more of its talented students.

I would venture to guess the reason that 46% of students at Georgetown get As is beacuse they are very smart students. Georgetown is easily the hardest school to get into out of the 8 teams that play PL football. Generally, highly selective schools are harder than other schools. Do you think Harvard and Lehigh's academics are equal? All im saying is for Georgetown to be leading the PL academic honor roll is really amazing for how good of a school it is.

[TheValleyRaider]

I would venture to guess the reason that 46% of students at Georgetown get As is beacuse they are very smart students. Georgetown is easily the hardest school to get into out of the 8 teams that play PL football. Generally, highly selective schools are harder than other schools. Do you think Harvard and Lehigh's academics are equal? All im saying is for Georgetown to be leading the PL academic honor roll is really amazing for how good of a school it is.

Not necessarily. If anything, accusations of grade inflation of regularly thrown at schools like Harvard, Princeton and others. Without attempting to cast doubt on the grades of some of AGS' finest Ivy grads, there's the grain of "accepted wisdom" that the hardest thing about a school like Harvard is getting in xpeacex

I agree that Georgetown is easily the hardest, but others like Holy Cross and Colgate are hardly slouches in that department (really, none of us are), and yet G'town's numbers are significantly better. Doesn't necessarily mean anything, but it doesn't necessarily mean nothing either

Oh yeah, and there's only 7 PL schools ;)

[Franks Tanks]

Not necessarily. If anything, accusations of grade inflation of regularly thrown at schools like Harvard, Princeton and others. Without attempting to cast doubt on the grades of some of AGS' finest Ivy grads, there's the grain of "accepted wisdom" that the hardest thing about a school like Harvard is getting in xpeacex

I agree that Georgetown is easily the hardest, but others like Holy Cross and Colgate are hardly slouches in that department (really, none of us are), and yet G'town's numbers are significantly better. Doesn't necessarily mean anything, but it doesn't necessarily mean nothing either

Oh yeah, and there's only 7 PL schools ;)


Very true Mr. Raider, Lehigh 11 is just a pup and has somthings to learn, just pay attention in stats and maybe take a few good sociology classes and you will be fine. Just because a given school is harder to get into doesnt mean it has a higher quality education. Now more often that not schools that are harder to get into will offer better and more challenging classes, but this doesnt occur with 100% certanity. Factors that have nothing to do with education like location, percieved prestige, and popularity of sports team can drive up applications and the selectivity of the incoming class without doing didly squat for improving the academic offerings. Now G-town is a great school anyway you slice it, but is it possible that Colgate's profs grade harder that G-town's? It most certainly can be the case, we just dont have proper raw data to make an accurate conclusion, it is just educated guess and hypothesis at this point. Oh but last time I checked Lafayette, Holy Cross, and Bucknell had virtually no difference amongst the ranking xsmiley_wix

[LBPop]

Well, I guess this is the only time of the year that the football Hoyas can get any legitimate praise, so I'm going to enjoy it a bit. This whole academic comparison thing is impossible to do. For starters, you need to ask what class average gets you an A, A-, B+, etc. I believe that Georgetown requires a 93 for an A-. Then you have the issue of grade inflation. I always heard that the Ivies did that. I can tell you that the Georgetown kids complain that they don't catch a break. Plus, being a football player gets you nothing at this basketball crazy University.

But here's what I can tell you for sure. Wall Street loves the kids at Georgetown. They pay big bucks for the privilege to come on campus and recruit. Plus, the pecking order to get the early shot at the best kids is based on the number of dollars that these firms contribute. So, while seeing Georgetown put a bunch of kids on the honor roll really pleases me, getting LBKid off the payroll is truly outstanding. xnodx

[TheValleyRaider]

Well, I guess this is the only time of the year that the football Hoyas can get any legitimate praise, so I'm going to enjoy it a bit. This whole academic comparison thing is impossible to do. For starters, you need to ask what class average gets you an A, A-, B+, etc. I believe that Georgetown requires a 93 for an A-. Then you have the issue of grade inflation. I always heard that the Ivies did that. I can tell you that the Georgetown kids complain that they don't catch a break. Plus, being a football player gets you nothing at this basketball crazy University.

But here's what I can tell you for sure. Wall Street loves the kids at Georgetown. They pay big bucks for the privilege to come on campus and recruit. Plus, the pecking order to get the early shot at the best kids is based on the number of dollars that these firms contribute. So, while seeing Georgetown put a bunch of kids on the honor roll really pleases me, getting LBKid off the payroll is truly outstanding. xnodx

Absolutely. Georgetown has nothing to be ashamed of with those kinds of academic numbers. Hats off to the Hoyas for their great efforts xsmileyclapx

Like you correctly point out, there is no way to really corrolate between schools what is a "difficult" school and which are "difficult" classes/majors. I only posted in response to go...'gate's concerns over our low numbers. Colgate is the only school I can claim to speak accurately for xpeacex

In perusing the G'town list, it's also fun to see someone from nearby get some credit. Nice going to Geoffrey Schnorr of the Mid-Hudson Valley xthumbsupx (even if he went to Ketcham :p)

[JoltinJoe]

Georgetown, as the highest-ranked Jesuit university, needs to set an example. It has always been the hallmark of a Jesuit education that a good grade results only from the hardest work. Here's what an executive faculty committee at Georgetown had to say about its grade-inflation issue about eight years ago:

Academic Standards at Georgetown (http://www9.georgetown.edu/executivefaculty/Documents/acad-stds-georgetown.pdf)

I also am aware that last year a re-constituted committee evaluated Georgetown's progrss toward the goals identified in this report, and concluded that Georgetown had not made significant enough progress.

Georgetown students are among the best and the brightest. They deserve to be challenged at the highest levels. I believe that Georgetown can do more as the nation's leading Jesuit institution.

This is not intended as knock on the students or the institution. It is simply a debate over what an "A" means. Some lay faculties today believe an "A" is an entitlement to giftted students, who receive an "A" simply by meeting expectations, and by doing nothing to affect their entitlement to that grade.

That's what an "A" is when nearly 50% of the class achieves that grade.

An "A", however, should be earned by the most gifted student who exceeds expectations.

Sorry for the soapbox. However, I am a big supporter of Jesuit education and I believe our flagship school should represent the very best of the Jesuit educational tradition.

[DFW HOYA]

Georgetown students are among the best and the brightest. They deserve to be challenged at the highest levels. I believe that Georgetown can do more as the nation's leading Jesuit institution. This is not intended as knock on the students or the institution...

The issue on grades is not easily defined nor easily applied to football.

The higher the course level, the smaller the class, the higher the proclivity to reward students for what is considered superior work. A 40 person class in econoimics will have a reasonable grade distribution, a five person seminar in East Asian political theory likely will not. This is a particular issue in liberal arts, but rest assured, no one is giving out A's for athletic reasons. Georgetown would not be a better place if the average GPA simply dropped to 2.5, but the responsibility ultimately rests with the faculty who design and evaluate the coursework.

As LBPop noted above, the time commitments of athletes and their academic expectations remain valued among prospective employers, and that still counts.

[jimbo65]

Well now we know why Gtown Fball has so little success, too much time on the schoolbooks and not enough time on the playbook.

[LehighFan11]

Very true Mr. Raider, Lehigh 11 is just a pup and has somthings to learn, just pay attention in stats and maybe take a few good sociology classes and you will be fine. Just because a given school is harder to get into doesnt mean it has a higher quality education. Now more often that not schools that are harder to get into will offer better and more challenging classes, but this doesnt occur with 100% certanity. Factors that have nothing to do with education like location, percieved prestige, and popularity of sports team can drive up applications and the selectivity of the incoming class without doing didly squat for improving the academic offerings. Now G-town is a great school anyway you slice it, but is it possible that Colgate's profs grade harder that G-town's? It most certainly can be the case, we just dont have proper raw data to make an accurate conclusion, it is just educated guess and hypothesis at this point. Oh but last time I checked Lafayette, Holy Cross, and Bucknell had virtually no difference amongst the ranking xsmiley_wix
Did I not say generally? Of course we can't conclude to any level of high certanity. I was just saying there is generally a correlation between admissions strength and strength of academics.

[Franks Tanks]

Did I not say generally? Of course we can't conclude to any level of high certanity. I was just saying there is generally a correlation between admissions strength and strength of academics.

Perhaps I mis-took your point, but one thing is certain. The Lehigh guys on the honor role either cheated, bribed profs, or took those ridiciliously classes offered at Lehigh xlolx

[LehighFan11]

Perhaps I mis-took your point, but one thing is certain. The Lehigh guys on the honor role either cheated, bribed profs, or took those ridiciliously classes offered at Lehigh xlolx

Haha. I didn't know there was ridicilious classes offered at lehigh, please let me know which ones so i can get those for next semester:)

[LBPop]

Well now we know why Gtown Fball has so little success, too much time on the schoolbooks and not enough time on the playbook.

xlolx xlolx I guess that's the school corollary to the business world assumption that if your golf game is too good, you must not be paying attention to your job.

[Go...gate]

Georgetown, as the highest-ranked Jesuit university, needs to set an example. It has always been the hallmark of a Jesuit education that a good grade results only from the hardest work. Here's what an executive faculty committee at Georgetown had to say about its grade-inflation issue about eight years ago:

Academic Standards at Georgetown (http://www9.georgetown.edu/executivefaculty/Documents/acad-stds-georgetown.pdf)

I also am aware that last year a re-constituted committee evaluated Georgetown's progrss toward the goals identified in this report, and concluded that Georgetown had not made significant enough progress.

Georgetown students are among the best and the brightest. They deserve to be challenged at the highest levels. I believe that Georgetown can do more as the nation's leading Jesuit institution.

This is not intended as knock on the students or the institution. It is simply a debate over what an "A" means. Some lay faculties today believe an "A" is an entitlement to giftted students, who receive an "A" simply by meeting expectations, and by doing nothing to affect their entitlement to that grade.

That's what an "A" is when nearly 50% of the class achieves that grade.

An "A", however, should be earned by the most gifted student who exceeds expectations.

Sorry for the soapbox. However, I am a big supporter of Jesuit education and I believe our flagship school should represent the very best of the Jesuit educational tradition.

I know the numbers say otherwise, but some of us old-timers think Fordham is also a Jesuit "flagship".