Realignment never ends… a new FCS is coming?

[bonarae]

More crufty than ever?

https://x.com/WinterSportsLaw/status/1836433175243084122

[Reign of Terrier]

so would this just make 3 d1 subdivisions? Not 2? I don’t see Wofford or most of the FCS throwing in with the G5. There’s still a big resource divide, albeit not as pronounced between and FCS

[mainejeff]

I think that most fan bases are ready for the madness to stop and things to settle out. The constant upheaval in conference membership really detracts from the game and is messing with longtime rivalries. Enough!

[Franks Tanks]

Well, we all know there is large divide between the P4 and the G6, except maybe for a few lower level P4 and higher level G6 schools that are pretty similar.

But, the non power conference schools have never been able to compete with the big boys or win a national championship. They however wanted to say they play at the “highest level”. Are they going to vote to divide themselves from that? All of these schools always had a level playing field available to them at the FCS level but they were “too good” for that.

[Reign of Terrier]

So i read the article the tweet quotes. It’s not a division one split that’s likely going to happen, but an FBS split. There’s basically 3 groups in D1: power conference schools that get lots of revenue from football, football playing non-power conference schools that don’t make $$$, and d1 basketball schools that don’t play football.

The intention is to preserve the NCAA basketball tournament, where the second and third group are dependent on revenue, but that tourney will probably be expanded, which will benefit the power conferences who will likely get more bids. The other intention is to basically formalize what p4 football and allow stuff like paying players, etc. Basically, all the stuff already happening but more regulation to improve competition within the p4 and within the g6.

the g6 or whatever it’s called would still have access to the CFP (because ratings), but the p4 would still get more $$$. Obviously, FCS wouldn’t. The implications for FCS (by my reading) is that it’s last call for the g6 teams to make a bull-run for the resources and positioning in a p4 conference. The Pac12 is kind of interesting - is it trying to get to the status where it can pay players like the p4? i have to think that may be the intention.

Anyway, for FCS, that means that the lower tier FBS teams will be much less about making money (not that they are now) and i think it seriously opens up the possibility of a Mountain west invite for the big FCS 4. I think you’ll see the G-whatever conferences pull a sun belt and really go more into regionality to reduce travel time and expenses, and where it doesn’t work, split big into divisions (again, like the sun belt). That’s where i see the big fcs 4 coming in.

All in all, Division one will be united by the NCAA basketball tournament, and I think that’s a good thing, and kind of where we already are anyway. What differentiates the 3 tiers will be overall athletic budget and how many teams, constrained by title IX, a program can support. I think the opportunities for heavily resourced FCS teams to move up will increase (especially with the big 4 moving up), but teams that have those resources won’t manifest for a little while, given the parity outside the big 4. The barrier right now seems to be “more teams means a smaller piece of the pie for everyone” but under the new format it’ll be “lower travel costs, better programs helps the G6 field a better playoff team.”

The FCS will basically be D2, but with better quality players, coaches, and product. You could argue it already is. As a fan of a team with a good basketball team (usually), i really want the NCAA tourney to stay intact, I want my team to provide 63 football scholarships still (dropping football or down to d2 is a non-starter), but I don’t want to even pretend we can match the resources of an arm’s race with state flagship colleges. The arm’s race started probably in the early 2010s IMO. So overall, i’d support whatever change keeps the NCAA tourney and allows clearly ambitious FCS teams to move up.

[JacksFan40]

I know it’s not popular to support a split between the P4 and the G5 but does anyone think we need a division where Alabama is competing for the same title as Eastern Michigan? The G5s that could actually compete with the P4 have been poached or are currently being poached by the PAC-12.

I’ve said it before but I think that D1 should be split into the current P4 and whatever additional G5 teams they grab, and then the G5 merged with the heavyweights of the FCS. Do away with the Dayton rule and let the remaining FCS teams put football in D2 or D3 (or even NAIA) while keeping all other sports in D1. It’s not like the FCS is full of parity either. Teams from the Pioneer, Patriot, or NEC trying to compete for the same title as SDSU/NDSU is no different than the Alabama/EMU example.

[Libertine]

More crufty than ever?

https://x.com/WinterSportsLaw/status/1836433175243084122


<Quick conjecture break:>

For context, this tweet (X-eet?) is the opinion of a lawyer based on a proposal to the Knight Commission which has no authority over or standing in college athletics. For all that it's worth, this may as well have come from PETA or the Canadian Girl Guides.

<resume conjecture>

[DFW HOYA]

Do away with the Dayton rule and let the remaining FCS teams put football in D2 or D3 (or even NAIA) while keeping all other sports in D1. It’s not like the FCS is full of parity either. Teams from the Pioneer, Patriot, or NEC trying to compete for the same title as SDSU/NDSU is no different than the Alabama/EMU example.

Richmond has entered the chat.

[wapiti]

I know it’s not popular to support a split between the P4 and the G5 but does anyone think we need a division where Alabama is competing for the same title as Eastern Michigan? The G5s that could actually compete with the P4 have been poached or are currently being poached by the PAC-12.

I’ve said it before but I think that D1 should be split into the current P4 and whatever additional G5 teams they grab, and then the G5 merged with the heavyweights of the FCS. Do away with the Dayton rule and let the remaining FCS teams put football in D2 or D3 (or even NAIA) while keeping all other sports in D1. It’s not like the FCS is full of parity either. Teams from the Pioneer, Patriot, MEAC, SWAC, or NEC trying to compete for the same title as SDSU/NDSU is no different than the Alabama/EMU example.
Added MEAC and SWAC to the list.

[KnightoftheRedFlash]

I know it’s not popular to support a split between the P4 and the G5 but does anyone think we need a division where Alabama is competing for the same title as Eastern Michigan? The G5s that could actually compete with the P4 have been poached or are currently being poached by the PAC-12.

I’ve said it before but I think that D1 should be split into the current P4 and whatever additional G5 teams they grab, and then the G5 merged with the heavyweights of the FCS. Do away with the Dayton rule and let the remaining FCS teams put football in D2 or D3 (or even NAIA) while keeping all other sports in D1. It’s not like the FCS is full of parity either. Teams from the Pioneer, Patriot, or NEC trying to compete for the same title as SDSU/NDSU is no different than the Alabama/EMU example.

No matter the situation, everyone has someone they look down upon.

Miss Marple called it. People are people everywhere you go.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Richmond has entered the chat.

As has Colgate and Lehigh who played for a 1-AA/FCS Championship. Colgate has 2 Payton Winners, Holy Cross finished #1 in the country one year despite the playoff ban and had a Heisman Finalist, Lehigh is home to an Eddie Robinson Award Winner and Payton Runner-up, Fordham has had numerous NFL guys, the PL's facilities are as good as those in the MVFC for the most part, budgets higher, etc.

The PL doesn't have to apologize for its place in the subdivision. Has it been great all the time? No, but what private program has? Given the composition of the institutions and some past/current policies there are naturally going to be some lean years. But they have been the exception....

[DFW HOYA]

As has Colgate and Lehigh who played for a 1-AA/FCS Championship. Colgate has 2 Payton Winners, Holy Cross finished #1 in the country one year despite the playoff ban and had a Heisman Finalist, Lehigh is home to an Eddie Robinson Award Winner and Payton Runner-up, Fordham has had numerous NFL guys, the PL's facilities are as good as those in the MVFC for the most part, budgets higher, etc.

People still consider the PL some sort of non-scholarship remnant. I won't speak for that team (...) but the PL in 2025 is going to be significantly more competitive with Richmond's arrival. These are fully funded 63 scholarship programs that can attract capable recruits. With a little better out of market scheduling and visibility (i.e, start scheduling west of I-95), the future PL is the equal or better than the Southern, the OVC, the MEAC, or SWAC; and on a good day, would give the CAA and Southland a run for its money.

[Reign of Terrier]

Getting teams that don't want to go FBS (85, soon to be 105 scholarship I think?) to drop from 63 or 60 or 45 scholarships (or whatever else the number is for the NEC/patriot are) to 23 (full d2 number) is a 100% non-starter.

There are maybe 120-130ish FCS teams and I would say (guess) no more than 20 could make the funding jump to 105 scholarship. I would guess that leaves 80ish schools that offer 63 or so scholarships. If they all went d2, that's basically reducing the equivalent of ~70 teams offering 43 scholarships. That's like 3000 scholarships that *won't* be taken up by FBS. Those players aren't going to be shuffled upward, the 25 or so "extra" players on FBS rosters (130ish members on a team currently) are going to be shuffled down. That's a back of the envelope calculation, but long story short the NCAA has 0, absolute 0 interest in *reducing* the number of opportunities for students to receive a free education. You can call the NCAA bad, inconsistent, or hypocritical, but that whole free education for athletes thing has been something they've been consistent on!

And when you talk about member institutions, there's title 9 considerations, as well as the fact that these schools see *social value* in giving scholarships to players. They're not going to cut the number of opportunities they give to students by almost 500 per decade because some state flagship institution somewhere that wants to be relevant says they aren't relevant.

I always find it really goofy when those types talk about relevancy and "how can they truly be d1 football program." I see this comment by (blank) Dakota State and Montana (State) fans and I'm not calling anyone out in particular, but I always find it goofy because it demonstrates why y'all need to move up. The whole point of this subdivision is to limit the arms race and provide those scholarship opportunities on a scale 3x D2. The fact that it seems to be a foreign concept demonstrates IMO why you don't belong.

Long story short, small FCS/mid major programs nowadays need to be d1 to support their social mission. They need access to the NCAA tournament, and the minute exposure it gives to us. We need to occasional FBS game. It's not for the sake of relevance, it's because we want to give scholarships, and these revenue streams are the best means for us to maintain that system. Take it away, and the negative consequence isn't us getting less exposure, as lots of schools (like Wofford) will be just fine, with endowments over 500 million. But you will have fewer scholarship opportunities, which are life changing opportunities for lots of young people

[Sitting Bull]

FCS will be fine. It would help if the Ivy League members became more proactive: play 11 games, diversify your OOC scheduling and most important, participate in the playoffs.

[DFW HOYA]

FCS will be fine. It would help if the Ivy League members became more proactive: play 11 games, diversify your OOC scheduling and most important, participate in the playoffs.

The Ivies pass on the playoffs in no small part to protect the Harvard-Yale game. The brahmin cannot imagine a world where the Crimson would win The Game and then go off to play Mercer on Thanksgiving Weekend.

[uofmman1122]

This has always been the ultimate inevitability. I think it's only a matter of time before the model of FCS/FBS is gone and we have something new and completely different.

[Sitting Bull]

The Ivies pass on the playoffs in no small part to protect the Harvard-Yale game. The brahmin cannot imagine a world where the Crimson would win The Game and then go off to play Mercer on Thanksgiving Weekend.

That’s one spin. Replace “Mercer” with “play for a National Championship”.

[FUBeAR]

The Ivies pass on the playoffs in no small part to protect the Harvard-Yale game. The brahmin cannot imagine a world where the Crimson would win The Game and then go off to play Mercer on Thanksgiving Weekend.
1) Princeton is ‘going off’ to the state of Georgia to play Mercer on October 12th, 2024, assuming Ivy students don’t protest and get the game canceled for reasons that shall not be discussed outside of the Politics Forum, other than to recall that the Commissioner (Cornell BS, Harvard JD) of MLB moved the All-Star game out of Georgia in 2021 because he did not like recently enacted Georgia State laws. Same state; same laws in 2024.

2) Mercer (5-6 that season) played @ Yale on 10/13/18 … lost by 7, but probably would have won if the Bears had more experience trying to play Football in a muddy sand pit.

3) 2024 Mercer would curb-stomp 2024 Harvard by at least 3 scores in the FCS Playoffs, so you’re probably correct.

[Reign of Terrier]

My hot FCS take is that the playoffs are extremely overrated and doing the equivalent of a BCS deal where we elevate like 4-5 games as prestigious (no playoff) and everyone else who wins 8 games is "bowl eligible" would be fine, reduce costs, and properly celebrate the season. If you're a good FCS team you have a 96% chance of ending your season on a bitter note and it sucks.

[POD Knows]

My hot FCS take is that the playoffs are extremely overrated and doing the equivalent of a BCS deal where we elevate like 4-5 games as prestigious (no playoff) and everyone else who wins 8 games is "bowl eligible" would be fine, reduce costs, and properly celebrate the season. If you're a good FCS team you have a 96% chance of ending your season on a bitter note and it sucks.
Participation trophies for all, screw that.

[DFW HOYA]

1) Princeton is ‘going off’ to the state of Georgia to play Mercer on October 12th, 2024, assuming Ivy students don’t protest and get the game canceled for reasons that shall not be discussed outside of the Politics Forum, other than to recall that the Commissioner (Cornell BS, Harvard JD) of MLB moved the All-Star game out of Georgia in 2021 because he did not like recently enacted Georgia State laws. Same state; same laws in 2024.

Again, I think it's less of an issue with other Ivy schools and more about the Harvard-Yale game being "the" conclusion of the season without fail, much like the Army-Navy game was before bowl money changed that conversation at the Pentagon.

One of the famous legends about the Harvard-Yale came from Hall of Fame coach Thomas A.D. ("Tad") Jones, who told his undefeated Yale team before the 1923 Harvard game: "Gentlemen, you are now going to play football against Harvard. Never again in your whole life will you do anything so important." (They won, 13-0.) The Ivies still buy into that and a coach today that says "Gentlemen, you are now going to play football against Harvard. If we win, next week we'll play at Albany" is anathema.

[Reign of Terrier]

Participation trophies for all, screw that.

Football is fun and 95% of programs at all levels have no reasonable expectation of winning a national title ever. Why let only the 5% end the season on a good note? Ask App State or Georgia Southern fans the most fun they’ve had with football games and bowl games after so-so seasons are ranked comparatively to national titles.

[uofmman1122]

My hot FCS take is that the playoffs are extremely overrated and doing the equivalent of a BCS deal where we elevate like 4-5 games as prestigious (no playoff) and everyone else who wins 8 games is "bowl eligible" would be fine, reduce costs, and properly celebrate the season. If you're a good FCS team you have a 96% chance of ending your season on a bitter note and it sucks.
Yeah, not gonna be a popular take here. We were one of the 96% of losers last year, but your model would have robbed us of unforgettable games against Furman and NDSU. I know the XDSU reign has made it seem otherwise, but winning it all is not the only thing that matters, nor the only satisfying conclusion to a football season.

[Reign of Terrier]

Also, apparently, after perusing some FCS forums/subreddits, there is this false perception that 2/3 of the subdivision are high spenders and 1/3 are low spenders…or something like that. And thus the solution is simple: lower third goes to D2, everyone else move up.

This is silly, because it’s really more of the case that there’s like 10 or so programs tops who are outspending everyone, and even then looking at expenditures isn’t helpful. Pre-pandemic, wofford was in the same spending ballpark as Montana State. The difference was that 1/3 of their budget went to financial aid for athletes, ours was 2/3.

FCS exists to play basketball, cap football expenditures, and maintain title 9 compliance for schools with less resources. It’s going to remain that way, and people searching for relevance or to not have caps should move up.

[Reign of Terrier]

Yeah, not gonna be a popular take here. We were one of the 96% of losers last year, but your model would have robbed us of unforgettable games against Furman and NDSU. I know the XDSU reign has made it seem otherwise, but winning it all is not the only thing that matters, nor the only satisfying conclusion to a football season.

Again: everyone who loves the playoffs is a beneficiary of the format (thankfully the format is changing and that will help). If you’re not a big 4 team you can expect a thanksgiving weekend game that dulls the atmosphere, at best one home game, and then you’ll get shipped across country to lose in the cold. Or to get curb stomped in Fargo. That’s literally how 5 of the last 7 non-covid seasons went. And as the teams like Kennesaw and Sam Houstom and Jacksonville state moved up (who didn’t fit this mold necessarily) the question arises: who cares?

I don’t mean that to be smug toward western low population states. Any random socon team will play you once a decade and without this format we would never and no one would think we were the worst for it.

It was certainly much different when the field was smaller, the geography more balanced, and the resources more at parity, but that’s not the world we live in anymore. It’s great that we’re 1-0 against Montana, for instance, but no one around the Wofford program outside of the color guy who went to that game cares. And some old guys and the half dozen ultras like me are the only fans who care. And we are technically orienting our entire program to win more of those games? Not gonna lie, most folks would find it cooler to beat Furman in a conference championship game or <shakes magic 8 ball> Elon in a tiny “bowl game”

[POD Knows]

Football is fun and 95% of programs at all levels have no reasonable expectation of winning a national title ever. Why let only the 5% end the season on a good note? Ask App State or Georgia Southern fans the most fun they’ve had with football games and bowl games after so-so seasons are ranked comparatively to national titles.
Pretty much the same thing with D1 basketball also, you have a handful of bluebloods and everybody else although I will acknowledge that the NCAA basketball tourney is somewhat more likely to have somebody come out of nowhere in BB than football at the fcs level.

[Sitting Bull]

Again, I think it's less of an issue with other Ivy schools and more about the Harvard-Yale game being "the" conclusion of the season without fail, much like the Army-Navy game was before bowl money changed that conversation at the Pentagon.

One of the famous legends about the Harvard-Yale came from Hall of Fame coach Thomas A.D. ("Tad") Jones, who told his undefeated Yale team before the 1923 Harvard game: "Gentlemen, you are now going to play football against Harvard. Never again in your whole life will you do anything so important." (They won, 13-0.) The Ivies still buy into that and a coach today that says "Gentlemen, you are now going to play football against Harvard. If we win, next week we'll play at Albany" is anathema.

Again - replace “Albany” with “for a National Championship”.

Army and Navy don’t turn down postseason play because of the Army/Navy game.

[Redbird 4th & short]

Participation trophies for all, screw that.

if my math serves me correctly, there will be 41 Bowl Games with 82 teams, which I believe includes the 12 teams, with 8 playing into 4 bowl games, that play into 2 bowl games, and then the title game, which isn't considered a bowl game. So basically 35 consolation bowl games for 70 teams, plus 12 teams playing into 6 more "bowl games". If I sort last years FBS team simply by record, there would be 12 playoff teams with 6-7 records by yearend. Meaning, the playoff cutoff would be any team 5-7 or worse. I know it's not record alone, but when you get to bottom of the barrell .. it is mostly 6-6 teams who wind up losing in playoffs, unless they face another 6-6 team.

So 82 of 134 FBS teams will be able to say they made the "playoffs" this year. And 35 of 70 will get to say they won their last game in the turtle wax bowl, etc. While just 1 of 12 in the real playoff will be able to say they won.

Show me the money, I guess ....

I'll take the FCS playoff structure every time. It's how all other sports at all other levels does it.

[uofmman1122]

Again: everyone who loves the playoffs is a beneficiary of the format (thankfully the format is changing and that will help). If you’re not a big 4 team you can expect a thanksgiving weekend game that dulls the atmosphere, at best one home game, and then you’ll get shipped across country to lose in the cold. Or to get curb stomped in Fargo. That’s literally how 5 of the last 7 non-covid seasons went. And as the teams like Kennesaw and Sam Houstom and Jacksonville state moved up (who didn’t fit this mold necessarily) the question arises: who cares?

I don’t mean that to be smug toward western low population states. Any random socon team will play you once a decade and without this format we would never and no one would think we were the worst for it.

It was certainly much different when the field was smaller, the geography more balanced, and the resources more at parity, but that’s not the world we live in anymore. It’s great that we’re 1-0 against Montana, for instance, but no one around the Wofford program outside of the color guy who went to that game cares. And some old guys and the half dozen ultras like me are the only fans who care. And we are technically orienting our entire program to win more of those games? Not gonna lie, most folks would find it cooler to beat Furman in a conference championship game or <shakes magic 8 ball> Elon in a tiny “bowl game”
I mean, we're in a lower sub-division on football. "People don't care" is always going to be a broad problem.

But I can almost guarantee you even less people are going to give a **** about FCS bowl games (that who exactly is going to fund?).

I also find it funny having lived through the 2000's when the Eastern FCS teams dominated to suddenly be "beneficiaries" of the system because we (collectively the Western FCS teams) are good now.

The system isn't the reason Wofford, or Furman, or Villanova isn't getting a top 4 seed, anymore.

"Football isn't as fun or exciting when your team isn't as good" is true at pretty much every level, regardless of what their postseason format looks like.

[aceinthehole]

Again - replace “Albany” with “for a National Championship”.

Army and Navy don’t turn down postseason play because of the Army/Navy game.

I think you (and this board) knows what DFW is saying - the point he is making.

Yale/Harvard football isn't playing for a National Championship. They are playing for some 2nd-tier playoff that crowns a NCAA Champion - very different than what Alabama or Ohio State football are playing for.

Ivy schools are playing for National Championship is Ice Hockey, Soccer and even Basketball, but not football. That's how they (and everyone else) looks at the FCS playoffs

[Go Green]

I can totally see Coach McCorkle telling the Dartmouth players "Gentlemen, you are about to play football against Brown. If you win, next weekend you will play Albany." And the players going "YEEEAAAHHHH!!!!!!"

:)

[Go Green]

Army and Navy don’t turn down postseason play because of the Army/Navy game.

Agreed, but no sane military academy coach is ever going to say "Gentlemen, you are about to play football against Army/Navy. Never in your life will you do anything so important."

I mean, defending the country against all enemies and all that...

[KnightoftheRedFlash]

FCS will be fine. It would help if the Ivy League members became more proactive: play 11 games, diversify your OOC scheduling and most important, participate in the playoffs.

Any Ivy League playoff participation won't move the national meter one iota.

FCS football exists at a regional level with scarce national recognition. Mostly when ESPN decides to throw a College GameDay bone and place the national championship on ABC. Otherwise, it is an afterthought. Princeton allowing a playoff trip to Fargo won't change that perspective.

[Sitting Bull]

I think you (and this board) knows what DFW is saying - the point he is making.

Yale/Harvard football isn't playing for a National Championship. They are playing for some 2nd-tier playoff that crowns a NCAA Champion - very different than what Alabama or Ohio State football are playing for.

Ivy schools are playing for National Championship is Ice Hockey, Soccer and even Basketball, but not football. That's how they (and everyone else) looks at the FCS playoffs

I get the point. But come on, there are other rivalries out there that carry the same if not greater meaning - Alabama/Auburn, Ohio State/Michigan, Army/Navy, Montana/Montana State. None of those are exceptions to the schools playing for a national championship. And there are 6 other schools in the Ivy. I really don’t buy that Dartmouth fans would be whining about playing UAlbany just because their last game was Brown.

I wonder if you asked all the players in the Ivy about playing for a national championship, would they be as nonchalant? Maybe it’s just a snobbery thing which is the other point I get about playing those examples, Mercer and UAlbany.

The Ivy League has sunk to averaging crowds of 5,000 or less to most of their games. You would think they might be open to some avenues on how to broaden fan interest. It certainly helps the other FCS programs that get in the playoffs and sometimes make a run.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Any Ivy League playoff participation won't move the national meter one iota.

FCS football exists at a regional level with scarce national recognition. Mostly when ESPN decides to throw a College GameDay bone and place the national championship on ABC. Otherwise, it is an afterthought. Princeton allowing a playoff trip to Fargo won't change that perspective.

I adamantly disagree that the Ivy league's participation wouldn't move the needle one iota. There has been CLEAR evidence the Ivy League moves the needle come March Madness because their long standinng history of being a tough out and/or winning a game, academic prestige, cultural influence, etc. ESPN and CBS have always played up the Ivy League angle during March. Social media always loves to get involved when the Ivy League is on the national stage. Hell, there's a reason IL football is on ESPNU/NBC Sports etc. It's football yes, but the real reason the Ivy League gets that platform is they move the needle culturally enough to justify the time and energy to broadcast. One also has to consider their geographical location in the Northeast where college football is already consumed differently/on a smaller scale than the rest of the country.

[bonarae]

I think you (and this board) knows what DFW is saying - the point he is making.

Yale/Harvard football isn't playing for a National Championship. They are playing for some 2nd-tier playoff that crowns a NCAA Champion - very different than what Alabama or Ohio State football are playing for.

Ivy schools are playing for National Championship is Ice Hockey, Soccer and even Basketball, but not football. That's how they (and everyone else) looks at the FCS playoffs


I get the point. But come on, there are other rivalries out there that carry the same if not greater meaning - Alabama/Auburn, Ohio State/Michigan, Army/Navy, Montana/Montana State. None of those are exceptions to the schools playing for a national championship. And there are 6 other schools in the Ivy. I really don’t buy that Dartmouth fans would be whining about playing UAlbany just because their last game was Brown.

I wonder if you asked all the players in the Ivy about playing for a national championship, would they be as nonchalant? Maybe it’s just a snobbery thing which is the other point I get about playing those examples, Mercer and UAlbany.

The Ivy League has sunk to averaging crowds of 5,000 or less to most of their games. You would think they might be open to some avenues on how to broaden fan interest. It certainly helps the other FCS programs that get in the playoffs and sometimes make a run.


I adamantly disagree that the Ivy league's participation wouldn't move the needle one iota. There has been CLEAR evidence the Ivy League moves the needle come March Madness because their long standinng history of being a tough out and/or winning a game, academic prestige, cultural influence, etc. ESPN and CBS have always played up the Ivy League angle during March. Social media always loves to get involved when the Ivy League is on the national stage. Hell, there's a reason IL football is on ESPNU/NBC Sports etc. It's football yes, but the real reason the Ivy League gets that platform is they move the needle culturally enough to justify the time and energy to broadcast. One also has to consider their geographical location in the Northeast where college football is already consumed differently/on a smaller scale than the rest of the country.


The Ivies pass on the playoffs in no small part to protect the Harvard-Yale game. The brahmin cannot imagine a world where the Crimson would win The Game and then go off to play Mercer on Thanksgiving Weekend.


Again, I think it's less of an issue with other Ivy schools and more about the Harvard-Yale game being "the" conclusion of the season without fail, much like the Army-Navy game was before bowl money changed that conversation at the Pentagon.

One of the famous legends about the Harvard-Yale came from Hall of Fame coach Thomas A.D. ("Tad") Jones, who told his undefeated Yale team before the 1923 Harvard game: "Gentlemen, you are now going to play football against Harvard. Never again in your whole life will you do anything so important." (They won, 13-0.) The Ivies still buy into that and a coach today that says "Gentlemen, you are now going to play football against Harvard. If we win, next week we'll play at Albany" is anathema.

I'm afraid it has come to the point that I'm probably ditching the Ivies for UC Davis/ETSU should the latter choose to commit to whatever they are in.

If the Ivies would allow playoff participation in football, what could be the factors at play?

Should "The Game" (of Harvard-Yale) become less significant? Can the Ivies make another scheduling pattern change to accommodate more out of region opponents?

[KnightoftheRedFlash]

I adamantly disagree that the Ivy league's participation wouldn't move the needle one iota. There has been CLEAR evidence the Ivy League moves the needle come March Madness because their long standinng history of being a tough out and/or winning a game, academic prestige, cultural influence, etc. ESPN and CBS have always played up the Ivy League angle during March. Social media always loves to get involved when the Ivy League is on the national stage. Hell, there's a reason IL football is on ESPNU/NBC Sports etc. It's football yes, but the real reason the Ivy League gets that platform is they move the needle culturally enough to justify the time and energy to broadcast. One also has to consider their geographical location in the Northeast where college football is already consumed differently/on a smaller scale than the rest of the country.

Sure. ESPNU games during the week fall under the same category as ESPN throwing a bone to the HBCU schools. It is a niche angle. Harvard-Yale, the most prestigious FCS rivalry, only obtains ESPNU. Which is third-tier ESPN coverage.

The first week of FCS playoffs occur during FBS Rivalry Week. Princeton's or Harvard's involvement isn't preventing their game from being shoved to ESPN+ while Alabama-Auburn play.

We, FCS fans, always overrate our influence. The Ivy League isn't some magical elixir.


March Madness is a different game where small schools have one window (the first weekend) of national attention.

[aceinthehole]

We, FCS fans, always overrate our influence. The Ivy League isn't some magical elixir.

March Madness is a different game where small schools have one window (the first weekend) of national attention.

Agreed. We all enjoy FCS, but the entire subdivision was created as a 2nd tier. Ivy or HBCU does not fix that. Even the G5 (whatever you want to call them) has more coverage and exposure due to more regular season games vs power schools and bowl games vs. P4. FCS doesn't get the same recognition from the media or public and it ain't changing with playoffs, a Yale/Harvard game or Celebration Bowl.

Basketball is a single division and while there are the haves and have nots, that first weekend is a level playing field. Same scholarships, neutral court, etc. Same goes with baseball, soccer, etc.

Villanova can be a National power in basketball and still be regarded as a lower-division football program. Nothing is going to change that. The actual subdivision and labels FBS vs FCS is a clear line that has financial and media implications.

[Reign of Terrier]

I mean, we're in a lower sub-division on football. "People don't care" is always going to be a broad problem.

But I can almost guarantee you even less people are going to give a **** about FCS bowl games (that who exactly is going to fund?).

I also find it funny having lived through the 2000's when the Eastern FCS teams dominated to suddenly be "beneficiaries" of the system because we (collectively the Western FCS teams) are good now.

The system isn't the reason Wofford, or Furman, or Villanova isn't getting a top 4 seed, anymore.

"Football isn't as fun or exciting when your team isn't as good" is true at pretty much every level, regardless of what their postseason format looks like.

People don’t care is a given, but down east, you have students at each school who applied to go to school against teams you compete against. At Wofford, people care a lot more about basketball because all the meaningful games are against teams everyone has a slight connection to. Among my college buddies, one is from Johnson City, one’s from Charleston, plenty got into Furman. No one has any connection out west.

The people who would have fun at a humble bowl game hosted by a school would be the fans and players celebrating a season, as opposed to playing a game over thanksgiving or being sent 2,000 miles away. The FCS playoffs doesn’t care about player or fan experience - if it ever did - just a championship that increasingly irrelevant.

At the end of the day, “national championship” and “playoff’ are status instruments. But it’s increasingly silly to say you’re the best at the third tier, because you undermine your own status. Why did Georgia Southern and App State move up and now the big 4 think of moving up? Because they’re used to their higher status here and winning it over and over again doesn’t hit the same way. For everyone else, we’ve been the washington generals for 15 years and IMO it’s changed a lot of people’s perception about what matters at the FCS level. And it’s not national championships. I thought I was an outlier, but I probably get the most rep nowadays by talking about this more than anything else.

[Reign of Terrier]

Also, again, hot take but both the HBCUs and the Ivys not caring about national titles shows a better understanding of what they value as institutions than most others. None of this matters in the end, so why care about where you stand in the so-called national picture? Do the thing that your fans care most about and which creates the most fun. That’s the reason, say, HBCU’s really only play somewhat local FCS teams, FBS, and D2 HBCUs. Sure it typically screws them for the second place team getting to the playoffs. They don’t care. The celebration bowl is cool.

[Sitting Bull]

At the end of the day, “national championship” and “playoff’ are status instruments. But it’s increasingly silly to say you’re the best at the third tier, because you undermine your own status. Why did Georgia Southern and App State move up .

Sorry, I think this is pretty ridiculous. Did you watch the FCS Championship game in Frisco last year? Did South Dakota State and their fans look ho-hum to you? The fan enthusiasm, a sold out stadium (btw, not even half filled for G5 bowl games), the response of the players, etc. does not support this theme that the National Championship was just some instrument or silky. It means something.

On Ga Southern and App State - yes, they both moved up but get serious, they didn’t move up to play each other. They were already doing that in the So Con. They moved up because they wanted to be on same level with the state flagship programs (P4). It’s a fools errand, the flagships have no interest in expanding their club. So you have all these schools stuck in the middle, spending and sacrificing at fans expense (midweek football games, etc) to reach for something that will never happen. UGA is never going to consider Ga Southern as a peer school, athletically or otherwise.

Whether G5 can accept a world where they compete among themselves and play for a divisional national championship remains to be seen. FCS has been successfully doing that for years now. If the Ivys included themselves in the process, it certainly wouldn’t hurt FCS but the Division is having no problem getting fan support, selling out their championship and getting the game on national TV.

[FUBeAR]

People don’t care is a given, but down east, you have students at each school who applied to go to school against teams you compete against. At Wofford, people care a lot more about basketball because all the meaningful games are against teams everyone has a slight connection to. Among my college buddies, one is from Johnson City, one’s from Charleston, plenty got into Furman. No one has any connection out west.

The people who would have fun at a humble bowl game hosted by a school would be the fans and players celebrating a season, as opposed to playing a game over thanksgiving or being sent 2,000 miles away. The FCS playoffs doesn’t care about player or fan experience - if it ever did - just a championship that increasingly irrelevant.

At the end of the day, “national championship” and “playoff’ are status instruments. But it’s increasingly silly to say you’re the best at the third tier, because you undermine your own status. Why did Georgia Southern and App State move up and now the big 4 think of moving up? Because they’re used to their higher status here and winning it over and over again doesn’t hit the same way. For everyone else, we’ve been the washington generals for 15 years and IMO it’s changed a lot of people’s perception about what matters at the FCS level. And it’s not national championships. I thought I was an outlier, but I probably get the most rep nowadays by talking about this more than anything else.Should thousands and thousands of less-than-the-highest-classification high schools not compete for their level’s State Championships?

This is not a “hot take.” It’s just, to use your word, the height of silliness.

The FCS Subdivision needs to ENTIRELY re-think the FCS Playoff System, as FUBeAR has strongly advocated. Seeding 16 vs. 8 is using a teaspoon to bail out the Titanic, but at least it’s something.


And, really, your entire post really should be disregarded because as soon as you said anyone was accepted at Furman and chose to go to Wofford…

https://media.makeameme.org/created/our-lie-detector-2559cbc926.jpg

[RahRahRabbits]

P
At the end of the day, “national championship” and “playoff’ are status instruments. But it’s increasingly silly to say you’re the best at the third tier, because you undermine your own status. Why did Georgia Southern and App State move up and now the big 4 think of moving up? Because they’re used to their higher status here and winning it over and over again doesn’t hit the same way. For everyone else, we’ve been the washington generals for 15 years and IMO it’s changed a lot of people’s perception about what matters at the FCS level. And it’s not national championships. I thought I was an outlier, but I probably get the most rep nowadays by talking about this more than anything else.

So, in your opinion, a championship only matters at the highest level? I would argue it sure matters for the players, staff, fans, and everyone else that has interest in that level, even if a so-called broad national audience "doesn't care".

Most FBS championship games draw 15-25 million viewers. That's only 6% of the United States' population. Superbowl draws 124 million --- significantly more, but still just barely 1/3 of the US population. Does that mean the FBS championship doesn't even matter? They're a "lower tier" compared to NFL. Does the NFL champion even matter? Not even half of the US cared enough to turn the game on. How about the 2nd or 3rd levels of high school football in a given state? Only the schools with 1000 kids/class matter? Pretty sure the state champions of our 9B class with 12 kids in their graduating class still consider themselves state champions, as they rightfully should.

These subdivisions are about leveling the playing field. FCS national champion is just as much a national champion as others... because they played their self-identified peer institutions with similar interests. While there is still a mismatch of spending for some programs, (most) are playing with the same number of scholarships.

Everything is relative... But in my opinion, your stance of downgrading the FCS championship because it isn't the "highest level" feels like an odd stance to take.

[RahRahRabbits]

Should thousands and thousands of less-than-the-highest-classification high schools not compete for their level’s State Championships?

This is not a “hot take.” It’s just, to use your word, the height of silliness.

The FCS Subdivision needs to ENTIRELY re-think the FCS Playoff System, as FUBeAR has strongly advocated. Seeding 16 vs. 8 is using a teaspoon to bail out the Titanic, but at least it’s something.


And, really, your entire post really should be disregarded because as soon as you said anyone was accepted at Furman and chose to go to Wofford…



Shucks anyhows... ya beat me to it.

Let them all play! #AllChampionshipsMatter

[Reign of Terrier]

Sorry, I think this is pretty ridiculous. Did you watch the FCS Championship game in Frisco last year? Did South Dakota State and their fans look ho-hum to you? The fan enthusiasm, a sold out stadium (btw, not even half filled for G5 bowl games), the response of the players, etc. does not support this theme that the National Championship was just some instrument or silky. It means something.

On Ga Southern and App State - yes, they both moved up but get serious, they didn’t move up to play each other. They were already doing that in the So Con. They moved up because they wanted to be on same level with the state flagship programs (P4). It’s a fools errand, the flagships have no interest in expanding their club. So you have all these schools stuck in the middle, spending and sacrificing at fans expense (midweek football games, etc) to reach for something that will never happen. UGA is never going to consider Ga Southern as a peer school, athletically or otherwise.

Whether G5 can accept a world where they compete among themselves and play for a divisional national championship remains to be seen. FCS has been successfully doing that for years now. If the Ivys included themselves in the process, it certainly wouldn’t hurt FCS but the Division is having no problem getting fan support, selling out their championship and getting the game on national TV.

Ask an App or GSU fan why they moved up and if they regret and they would disagree with you and not regret it. They want to play teams more like them.


Should thousands and thousands of less-than-the-highest-classification high schools not compete for their level’s State Championships?

This is not a “hot take.” It’s just, to use your word, the height of silliness.

The FCS Subdivision needs to ENTIRELY re-think the FCS Playoff System, as FUBeAR has strongly advocated. Seeding 16 vs. 8 is using a teaspoon to bail out the Titanic, but at least it’s something.


And, really, your entire post really should be disregarded because as soon as you said anyone was accepted at Furman and chose to go to Wofford…

https://media.makeameme.org/created/our-lie-detector-2559cbc926.jpg




So, in your opinion, a championship only matters at the highest level? I would argue it sure matters for the players, staff, fans, and everyone else that has interest in that level, even if a so-called broad national audience "doesn't care".

Most FBS championship games draw 15-25 million viewers. That's only 6% of the United States' population. Superbowl draws 124 million --- significantly more, but still just barely 1/3 of the US population. Does that mean the FBS championship doesn't even matter? They're a "lower tier" compared to NFL. Does the NFL champion even matter? Not even half of the US cared enough to turn the game on. How about the 2nd or 3rd levels of high school football in a given state? Only the schools with 1000 kids/class matter? Pretty sure the state champions of our 9B class with 12 kids in their graduating class still consider themselves state champions, as they rightfully should.

These subdivisions are about leveling the playing field. FCS national champion is just as much a national champion as others... because they played their self-identified peer institutions with similar interests. While there is still a mismatch of spending for some programs, (most) are playing with the same number of scholarships.

Everything is relative... But in my opinion, your stance of downgrading the FCS championship because it isn't the "highest level" feels like an odd stance to take.

You guys have missed the point entirely. And on a deeper level, misunderstand that there’s different purposes for high school, college, and pro ball. Only one of them is singularly focused on championships and seeing which one is the absolute best (Pro) and only one of them by its nature explicitly doesn’t care about national standing outside of obscure websites that want to make money (high school).

You say I’m downgrading the FCS title, but if you think it has more status than D2 or D3, you’re a little looney. Maybe there’s more meme potential with it, but that’s about it. And if you think that entire athletic programs should be bent over backwards chasing the status of an FCS championship, you probably shouldn’t be FCS. The limitations are the point. Provided student athletes with scholarships is the point.

[KnightoftheRedFlash]

The fact is, tons of title-winning FCS programs have abandoned the subdivision for the most likely outcome of a minor bowl game.

And if NDSU, SDSU, the Montana schools weren't geographically isolated their departure would have occurred by now.

Three of the conferences aren't even contending for a title. One conference doesn't even offer scholarships.

[Reign of Terrier]

The fact is, tons of title-winning FCS programs have abandoned the subdivision for the most likely outcome of a minor bowl game.

And if NDSU, SDSU, the Montana schools weren't geographically isolated their departure would have occurred by now.

Three of the conferences aren't even contending for a title. One conference doesn't even offer scholarships.

There are 13 conferences, 14 if you count the big south/ovc as 2 conferences. So, of those 14, 3 don’t compete for the title, one doesn’t offer scholarships, an additional 2 offered reduced scholarships and other restraints (Patriot and NEC) that has them historically considered disadvantaged (though i think that has changed, but i imagine their budgets are on the lower end of football), one has struggled to maintain its autobid status (Big South), and if i’m not mistaken the OVC has only rarely won a playoff game outside of JSU. The UAC comprises of schools that weren’t D1 10 years ago, and no team that has gotten past the quarterfinals in like 40 years.

That leaves 5 conferences: Southland, Southern, CAA, big sky, and MVFC. And even within those 5 conferences, there’s huge variation in funding, enthusiasm, and resources.

Identity-wise, the southland and southern conference are probably most alike and the big sky and mvfc are similar for different reasons.

Regardless, this isn’t a league of any sorts, it’s s confederation of schools with other academic and athletic priorities. That’s fine! But that doesn’t mean crowning the best team in a playoff makes the most fun for most people.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Billy Connelly/ESPN's FCS Game of the Week...


FCS: Yale at Holy Cross (2 p.m., ESPN+). Finally, the Ivy League joins the party. Yale, the preseason media favorite to win a third straight conference title, lost a lot of key contributors and starts the season against a Holy Cross team that might have begun to get its footing after a slow start. Yale's defensive front, led by end Dylan Yang (https://www.espn.com/college-football/player/_/id/5094051/dylan-yang) and tackle Alvin Gulley Jr (https://www.espn.com/college-football/player/_/id/4883106/alvin-gulley-jr)., should hold up just fine. We'll see about the offense.
SP+ projection: Holy Cross by 1.5

https://www.espn.com/college-football/insider/story/_/id/41327792/connelly-week-4-college-football-preview-picks-tennessee-oklahoma-usc-michigan-more

[KnightoftheRedFlash]

There are 13 conferences, 14 if you count the big south/ovc as 2 conferences. So, of those 14, 3 don’t compete for the title, one doesn’t offer scholarships, an additional 2 offered reduced scholarships and other restraints (Patriot and NEC) that has them historically considered disadvantaged (though i think that has changed, but i imagine their budgets are on the lower end of football), one has struggled to maintain its autobid status (Big South), and if i’m not mistaken the OVC has only rarely won a playoff game outside of JSU. The UAC comprises of schools that weren’t D1 10 years ago, and no team that has gotten past the quarterfinals in like 40 years.

That leaves 5 conferences: Southland, Southern, CAA, big sky, and MVFC. And even within those 5 conferences, there’s huge variation in funding, enthusiasm, and resources.

Identity-wise, the southland and southern conference are probably most alike and the big sky and mvfc are similar for different reasons.

Regardless, this isn’t a league of any sorts, it’s s confederation of schools with other academic and athletic priorities. That’s fine! But that doesn’t mean crowning the best team in a playoff makes the most fun for most people.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Reign of Terrier again.

[FUBeAR]

Ask an App or GSU fan why they moved up and if they regret and they would disagree with you and not regret it. They want to play teams more like them.







You guys have missed the point entirely. And on a deeper level, misunderstand that there’s different purposes for high school, college, and pro ball. Only one of them is singularly focused on championships and seeing which one is the absolute best (Pro) and only one of them by its nature explicitly doesn’t care about national standing outside of obscure websites that want to make money (high school).

You say I’m downgrading the FCS title, but if you think it has more status than D2 or D3, you’re a little looney. Maybe there’s more meme potential with it, but that’s about it. And if you think that entire athletic programs should be bent over backwards chasing the status of an FCS championship, you probably shouldn’t be FCS. The limitations are the point. Provided student athletes with scholarships is the point.
Yes - clearly, having both played & coached both College & High School Football and worked with dozens of Colleges’ Athletics Departments at all levels (from Erskine to Clemson, for example) providing technology & career resources for the current & alumni athletes, FUBeAR lacks your depth of knowledge on the subject. Sincere (cough) apologies for FUBeAR’s naivety on the topic.

[RahRahRabbits]

There are 13 conferences, 14 if you count the big south/ovc as 2 conferences. So, of those 14, 3 don’t compete for the title, one doesn’t offer scholarships, an additional 2 offered reduced scholarships and other restraints (Patriot and NEC) that has them historically considered disadvantaged (though i think that has changed, but i imagine their budgets are on the lower end of football), one has struggled to maintain its autobid status (Big South), and if i’m not mistaken the OVC has only rarely won a playoff game outside of JSU. The UAC comprises of schools that weren’t D1 10 years ago, and no team that has gotten past the quarterfinals in like 40 years.

That leaves 5 conferences: Southland, Southern, CAA, big sky, and MVFC. And even within those 5 conferences, there’s huge variation in funding, enthusiasm, and resources.

Identity-wise, the southland and southern conference are probably most alike and the big sky and mvfc are similar for different reasons.

Regardless, this isn’t a league of any sorts, it’s s confederation of schools with other academic and athletic priorities. That’s fine! But that doesn’t mean crowning the best team in a playoff makes the most fun for most people.

I don't think there's a single person outside of the pioneer league that think they should have an auto-bid to the FCS playoffs. Due to their limited resources, I'm sure many of them would prefer to drop their football programs to a lower level, but the Dayton Rule messed that up for them. So, they're forced to band together into their own zero-scholarship conference if they want to have their other sports play at the highest level NCAA offers.

On the other hand, if you asked the Ivy players or coaches if they'd like to participate in the FCS playoffs, I would be 90%+ says yes. For some reason league leadership is holding on to some outdated reasonings that fall into an appeal to tradition fallacy, keeping back their football programs from a wider gene pool of competition.

Where does it say that the point of a national playoff is for the most fun for most people though? I must have missed that. I'm sure you could call up your Wofford AD and plead that they shun any potential invite to the FCS playoffs, and instead host your own bowl game? You aught to be able to have it with a local team, maybe The Citadel (sorry guys... don't mean to drag you into this... no hard feelings?) for awhile, so they don't have to worry about turning down a playoff invite too, and keep it fun and breezy for all local fans?

If your argument against the FCS playoffs is that there are too many auto-bid conferences with a champion that's not well-supported enough to have a competitive on-field product in those playoffs, but in the next sentence fully support March Madness for basketball for whatever reason --- they both have the same issues of severely mismatched teams due to support/funding/etc. Obviously, there is more of a chance of upsets in basketball than football... but it's all the same concept.

I can promise the playoffs are very fun for fans, I would just recommend your team having enough regular season success to host a game or two.

Maybe you're right that SDSU/NDSU/Montana's would move up at the drop of an invite like others have in the past. You guys are correct that geography likely is a driving force behind those reasons. But just like the major players of the SEC/Big10, just because 90% of the division isn't trying as hard as you, doesn't make the championship ring feel any worse when you do out-compete the other schools that are trying.

[SteelSD]

You guys have missed the point entirely. And on a deeper level, misunderstand that there’s different purposes for high school, college, and pro ball. Only one of them is singularly focused on championships and seeing which one is the absolute best (Pro) and only one of them by its nature explicitly doesn’t care about national standing outside of obscure websites that want to make money (high school).

You say I’m downgrading the FCS title, but if you think it has more status than D2 or D3, you’re a little looney. Maybe there’s more meme potential with it, but that’s about it. And if you think that entire athletic programs should be bent over backwards chasing the status of an FCS championship, you probably shouldn’t be FCS. The limitations are the point. Provided student athletes with scholarships is the point.
Gosh, I didn't realize that the excitement our fan base had about playing in and winning a national title was so off base to the goals of "most people." Here we are, FCSing all wrong..

[JacksFan40]

Gosh, I didn't realize that the excitement our fan base had about playing in and winning a national title was so off base to the goals of "most people." Here we are, FCSing all wrong..
Just look at how miserable Texas fans are now that they’re competing for titles again. No way they can be more excited than whoever ends up in the 68 Ventures Bowl.

[uofmman1122]

I'd love to see how well this sentiment goes over with the SOCON players and coaches lol

[Reign of Terrier]

I don't think there's a single person outside of the pioneer league that think they should have an auto-bid to the FCS playoffs. Due to their limited resources, I'm sure many of them would prefer to drop their football programs to a lower level, but the Dayton Rule messed that up for them. So, they're forced to band together into their own zero-scholarship conference if they want to have their other sports play at the highest level NCAA offers.

On the other hand, if you asked the Ivy players or coaches if they'd like to participate in the FCS playoffs, I would be 90%+ says yes. For some reason league leadership is holding on to some outdated reasonings that fall into an appeal to tradition fallacy, keeping back their football programs from a wider gene pool of competition.

Where does it say that the point of a national playoff is for the most fun for most people though? I must have missed that. I'm sure you could call up your Wofford AD and plead that they shun any potential invite to the FCS playoffs, and instead host your own bowl game? You aught to be able to have it with a local team, maybe The Citadel (sorry guys... don't mean to drag you into this... no hard feelings?) for awhile, so they don't have to worry about turning down a playoff invite too, and keep it fun and breezy for all local fans?

If your argument against the FCS playoffs is that there are too many auto-bid conferences with a champion that's not well-supported enough to have a competitive on-field product in those playoffs, but in the next sentence fully support March Madness for basketball for whatever reason --- they both have the same issues of severely mismatched teams due to support/funding/etc. Obviously, there is more of a chance of upsets in basketball than football... but it's all the same concept.

I can promise the playoffs are very fun for fans, I would just recommend your team having enough regular season success to host a game or two.

Maybe you're right that SDSU/NDSU/Montana's would move up at the drop of an invite like others have in the past. You guys are correct that geography likely is a driving force behind those reasons. But just like the major players of the SEC/Big10, just because 90% of the division isn't trying as hard as you, doesn't make the championship ring feel any worse when you do out-compete the other schools that are trying.

This comment is super echo-chambery and doesn’t deserve a response, partially because you can’t or won’t understand what I’m saying.


Gosh, I didn't realize that the excitement our fan base had about playing in and winning a national title was so off base to the goals of "most people." Here we are, FCSing all wrong..

Congrats on being one of two teams do reach this milestone in the last 15 years still at this level. There are about 5 in the last 20. 6 in the last 35 or so. If anything, winning a championship at this level is a precursor for moving up if you’re a state school, with YSU being the sad exception. I’d guess very soon it will be the case that every state school but that won a championship since 1990 moved up.


Just look at how miserable Texas fans are now that they’re competing for titles again. No way they can be more excited than whoever ends up in the 68 Ventures Bowl.

Ah yes, all football fans are like Texas fans! Not a breed of entitled maniacs there at all


I'd love to see how well this sentiment goes over with the SOCON players and coaches lol

I can tell you right now that there’s frustration among fans, coaches, and players that perfection is demanded of them to get a bid or basic recognition (just look at how Mercer, Furman, and others have been denied bids), and it is super old that our best teams get the reward of going to fargo in the quarterfinals. I wanna say before Wofford traveled to Montana in 2007, it was rare for a socon team to go out west, but now it happens every year. It’s a pattern. Socon teams usually meet in the second round, if they’re seeded they get a socon team, and if they win they get sent to the gulag, far away, where most fans can’t travel. 2016, 2017, 2021-2023, it’s a pattern. Multiple teams too! Heck, I’m not even including the games the Huesman UTC teams had to play at the number one team in the country.

Long story short, you westerners think the playoffs are swell, primarily because you don’t typically have to travel more than once a postseason. But believe me, it sucks. Road games are fun. I’ve been to most east coast Wofford away football games. But the long distance travel is a one way ticket to “meh this isn’t worth it” and when you do it for a decade, it changes your outlook.

[Reign of Terrier]

Yes - clearly, having both played & coached both College & High School Football and worked with dozens of Colleges’ Athletics Departments at all levels (from Erskine to Clemson, for example) providing technology & career resources for the current & alumni athletes, FUBeAR lacks your depth of knowledge on the subject. Sincere (cough) apologies for FUBeAR’s naivety on the topic.

Thanks for seeing the clear error of your ways

[JacksFan40]

This comment is super echo-chambery and doesn’t deserve a response, partially because you can’t or won’t understand what I’m saying.



Congrats on being one of two teams do reach this milestone in the last 15 years still at this level. There are about 5 in the last 20. 6 in the last 35 or so. If anything, winning a championship at this level is a precursor for moving up if you’re a state school, with YSU being the sad exception. I’d guess very soon it will be the case that every state school but that won a championship since 1990 moved up.



Ah yes, all football fans are like Texas fans! Not a breed of entitled maniacs there at all



I can tell you right now that there’s frustration among fans, coaches, and players that perfection is demanded of them to get a bid or basic recognition (just look at how Mercer, Furman, and others have been denied bids), and it is super old that our best teams get the reward of going to fargo in the quarterfinals. I wanna say before Wofford traveled to Montana in 2007, it was rare for a socon team to go out west, but now it happens every year. It’s a pattern. Socon teams usually meet in the second round, if they’re seeded they get a socon team, and if they win they get sent to the gulag, far away, where most fans can’t travel. 2016, 2017, 2021-2023, it’s a pattern. Multiple teams too! Heck, I’m not even including the games the Huesman UTC teams had to play at the number one team in the country.

Long story short, you westerners think the playoffs are swell, primarily because you don’t typically have to travel more than once a postseason. But believe me, it sucks. Road games are fun. I’ve been to most east coast Wofford away football games. But the long distance travel is a one way ticket to “meh this isn’t worth it” and when you do it for a decade, it changes your outlook.
We can user other programs if you’d like. Miami is red hot right now and looks like title contenders and their fan base is excited to be in contention for said title for the first time in years. Being able to compete for a national title is much more exciting than not. Tennessee, USC, Ole Miss etc. are all also excited for having title contending teams. Nebraska is excited they don’t suck for the first time in a decade as well.

As for SoCon teams having to travel west now, tough luck. SDSU had to go to Fargo in 2012, 2014, 2016, and 2018. We also would’ve been sent there in 2015 and 2019 if we didn’t lose in the first round. What changed? We went from always losing 2-4 games a year to only losing 1 or just going undefeated, as well as beating plenty of T25 teams along the way. That’s the way the cookie crumbles in the FCS, you want to be the best you have to beat the best. Those SDSU teams weren’t the best those years, hence why they lost.

[KPSUL]

I can totally see Coach McCorkle telling the Dartmouth players "Gentlemen, you are about to play football against Brown. If you win, next weekend you will play Albany." And the players going "YEEEAAAHHHH!!!!!!"

:)
So Brown vs Dartmouth is a big deal? It strikes me as a contrived rivalry match-up along the lines of Albany vs Stony Brook. A game to be played on the last Saturday of the regular season when the real rivalry games are played, like Harvard vs Yale, so as not to feel left out. No reason not to want to play in a true playoff against the best teams that season in the subdivision.

The true rivalry games are when the alumni who don't care about football, all of sudden care about football for one weekend. They are far and few between: Army vs Navy, Harvard vs Yale, Lehigh vs Lafayette, Oklahoma vs Texas, et cetera, et cetera, etc.

[SteelSD]

We can user other programs if you’d like. Miami is red hot right now and looks like title contenders and their fan base is excited to be in contention for said title for the first time in years. Being able to compete for a national title is much more exciting than not. Tennessee, USC, Ole Miss etc. are all also excited for having title contending teams. Nebraska is excited they don’t suck for the first time in a decade as well.

As for SoCon teams having to travel west now, tough luck. SDSU had to go to Fargo in 2012, 2014, 2016, and 2018. We also would’ve been sent there in 2015 and 2019 if we didn’t lose in the first round. What changed? We went from always losing 2-4 games a year to only losing 1 or just going undefeated, as well as beating plenty of T25 teams along the way. That’s the way the cookie crumbles in the FCS, you want to be the best you have to beat the best. Those SDSU teams weren’t the best those years, hence why they lost.
Exactly! And let's not forget that Furman was likely the 2 seed last year before they decided to lose to a 2-9 conference foe whose fan base evidently cares more about giving scholarships than winning national championships. They would have likely gotten both NDSU and Montana at home. So whose fault is it SoCon teams are having to travel? Win your damn games.

In 2021 SDSU lost 3 regular season games including one on a last second hail Mary. As a result we had the following travel schedule in the playoffs:

Sacramento State- 1700 miles
Villanova- 1300 miles
Montana State- 845 miles

And not a single SDSU fan complained about it. If you lose regular season games you shouldn't then you play the hand you are dealt and make the best of it.

[Reign of Terrier]

We can user other programs if you’d like. Miami is red hot right now and looks like title contenders and their fan base is excited to be in contention for said title for the first time in years. Being able to compete for a national title is much more exciting than not. Tennessee, USC, Ole Miss etc. are all also excited for having title contending teams. Nebraska is excited they don’t suck for the first time in a decade as well.

As for SoCon teams having to travel west now, tough luck. SDSU had to go to Fargo in 2012, 2014, 2016, and 2018. We also would’ve been sent there in 2015 and 2019 if we didn’t lose in the first round. What changed? We went from always losing 2-4 games a year to only losing 1 or just going undefeated, as well as beating plenty of T25 teams along the way. That’s the way the cookie crumbles in the FCS, you want to be the best you have to beat the best. Those SDSU teams weren’t the best those years, hence why they lost.

There’s no arguing that winning is fun. My argument is simply that if you have self-selected the competitive parameters of your subdivision to cap how many resources and how good you can be, and many programs within that subdivision put other caps on themselves, most people have pretty much punted on being the maximally best team possible and so it’s silly to have a post-season system that follows that model. Opt for the fun thing instead! It’s what the HBCUs do, and it’s part of the reason their attendance is better, even when resources and other stuff isn’t up to par.


Exactly! And let's not forget that Furman was likely the 2 seed last year before they decided to lose to a 2-9 conference foe whose fan base evidently cares more about giving scholarships than winning national championships. They would have likely gotten both NDSU and Montana at home. So whose fault is it SoCon teams are having to travel? Win your damn games.

In 2021 SDSU lost 3 regular season games including one on a last second hail Mary. As a result we had the following travel schedule in the playoffs:

Sacramento State- 1700 miles
Villanova- 1300 miles
Montana State- 845 miles

And not a single SDSU fan complained about it. If you lose regular season games you shouldn't then you play the hand you are dealt and make the best of it.

I’m making a different argument than you think i am. I do believe that home field is more important than people think, especially with cross country travel, at a time of year when the weather changes fast, at making things worse for visiting teams. But that’s not my argument here. My argument is that it sucks for fans, especially in a context where you either played an away game the week before, had a good season and this is how you’re rewarded, or had a singular home game over thanksgiving weekend which is the worst.

Put another way, what you’re citing is an outlier year for SDSU, but the travel situation is more outlandish for eastern teams The difference between the Big Sky and MVFC and everyone else is that they regularly fly during the regular season. The issue here is not just that the team travels, but also that the fans have less of an opportunity to go to those games.

[uofmman1122]

I'm just glad that most FCS fans don't share your defeatist, nihilistic view of the playoff system.

There's no point in addressing someone's arguments who dismisses other's valid opinions as "echo-chambery". It comes off as incredibly whiny and perfunctory.

I do appreciate you projecting your frustration and sadness about the state of FCS football onto the coaches and players who I very much doubt feel the same way. I'm sure the boys at Furman last year would've loved to have a meaningless exhibition game against your Terriers after the season instead of coming out to Missoula and playing one of the best games I've ever seen. Why try your best against the best teams and lose when you could just "have fun", instead? Why live at all when we're all just going to die? :)

[SteelSD]

There’s no arguing that winning is fun. My argument is simply that if you have self-selected the competitive parameters of your subdivision to cap how many resources and how good you can be, and many programs within that subdivision put other caps on themselves, most people have pretty much punted on being the maximally best team possible and so it’s silly to have a post-season system that follows that model. Opt for the fun thing instead! It’s what the HBCUs do, and it’s part of the reason their attendance is better, even when resources and other stuff isn’t up to par.



I’m making a different argument than you think i am. I do believe that home field is more important than people think, especially with cross country travel, at a time of year when the weather changes fast, at making things worse for visiting teams. But that’s not my argument here. My argument is that it sucks for fans, especially in a context where you either played an away game the week before, had a good season and this is how you’re rewarded, or had a singular home game over thanksgiving weekend which is the worst.

Put another way, what you’re citing is an outlier year for SDSU, but the travel situation is more outlandish for eastern teams The difference between the Big Sky and MVFC and everyone else is that they regularly fly during the regular season. The issue here is not just that the team travels, but also that the fans have less of an opportunity to go to those games.

Ok, I’m not giving you much credibility for you opinion prior to this post, but after it?! I nearly spit out my Friday cocktail (which is some good quality Bourbon by the way) when I read that you think eastern teams travels are more “outlandish” than the western teams. That’s solid comedic gold right there!

[MSUBobcat]

There’s no arguing that winning is fun. My argument is simply that if you have self-selected the competitive parameters of your subdivision to cap how many resources and how good you can be, and many programs within that subdivision put other caps on themselves, most people have pretty much punted on being the maximally best team possible and so it’s silly to have a post-season system that follows that model. Opt for the fun thing instead! It’s what the HBCUs do, and it’s part of the reason their attendance is better, even when resources and other stuff isn’t up to par.



I’m making a different argument than you think i am. I do believe that home field is more important than people think, especially with cross country travel, at a time of year when the weather changes fast, at making things worse for visiting teams. But that’s not my argument here. My argument is that it sucks for fans, especially in a context where you either played an away game the week before, had a good season and this is how you’re rewarded, or had a singular home game over thanksgiving weekend which is the worst.

Put another way, what you’re citing is an outlier year for SDSU, but the travel situation is more outlandish for eastern teams The difference between the Big Sky and MVFC and everyone else is that they regularly fly during the regular season. The issue here is not just that the team travels, but also that the fans have less of an opportunity to go to those games.

Forgive me for being blunt but a playoff structure is never set up with consideration for the lower ranked team's fan base. If that's your argument.... you're probably on an island of one. And the premise that the Big Sky and MVFC travel more during the regular season so it sucks less for the fans to have to travel during the playoffs is ridiculous. If a Big Sky team makes the playoffs and is not one of the newly expanded seeds, there is a 100% chance that they are boarding a flight, no ifs, ands or buts (there is one scenario where a Big Sky team could have a bus trip in round 1, but its so extremely unlikely, it's hardly worth mentioning-San Diego would have to be a top 16 seed AND Cal Poly would have to make the playoffs; neither has a snowball's chance in hell). For the MVFC, it is very likely, though a few schools DO have an OVC school within bus distance. So forgive us for not giving a single **** about you possibly having to travel to see your #17-24 team in the playoffs when it's a near certainty for our conferences.....

[RahRahRabbits]

This comment is super echo-chambery and doesn’t deserve a response, partially because you can’t or won’t understand what I’m saying.


Ope, you're right, sorry for stepping out of line.... Now grandpa, it's time for your meds.... Your nurses will be around soon - don't want them to catch you up after your 6 pm bedtime. Hope you don't soil yourself like the past 4 nights... always a nuisance for them to have to clean up your BS.

[JacksFan40]

Ope, you're right, sorry for stepping out of line.... Now grandpa, it's time for your meds.... Your nurses will be around soon - don't want them to catch you up after your 6 pm bedtime. Hope you don't soil yourself like the past 4 nights... always a nuisance for them to have to clean up your BS.
No offense but there’s a Smack talk board for a reason.

[RahRahRabbits]

No offense but there’s a Smack talk board for a reason.

Critique taken and understood.... My apologies, JackFan40 ---- this did get a bit aggressive at the end (legitimately).

Reign of terror... to put it more politely, your comment is super echo-chambery and doesn’t deserve a response, partially because you can’t or won’t understand what I’m saying.

[FUBeAR]

Critique taken and understood.... My apologies, JackFan40 ---- this did get a bit aggressive at the end (legitimately).

Reign of terror... to put it more politely, your comment is super echo-chambery and doesn’t deserve a response, partially because you can’t or won’t understand what I’m saying.
FUBeAR and RoT can smack talk each other freely in any Forum. We go way back. Back to 1889, in fact.

FUBeAR welcomes our leporine friend from the Mount Rushmore State to, temporarily, join in - IF RoT concurs.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

My hot FCS take is that the playoffs are extremely overrated and doing the equivalent of a BCS deal where we elevate like 4-5 games as prestigious (no playoff) and everyone else who wins 8 games is "bowl eligible" would be fine, reduce costs, and properly celebrate the season. If you're a good FCS team you have a 96% chance of ending your season on a bitter note and it sucks.

It will really help when the FCS semifinals are bowl games at neutral sites instead of home venues, making them actual competitive games, and even if you lose in the semis, maybe you get some swag and a unique multi-day experience outside of flights to Brookings or Fargo on the coldest days of the year.

It will also help when the post-House NCAA 1) breaks away from the P4, and 2) realizes NCAA Tournament-like revenue sharing would make the FCS Playoffs very popular, and make it more diverse (with the HBCU's clamoring to get in, with the Ivies behind them). They can pay for that with the extra revenue they get when they rip up Charlie Baker's TV deal with ESPN and get a real contract.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

At the end of the day, “national championship” and “playoff’ are status instruments. But it’s increasingly silly to say you’re the best at the third tier, because you undermine your own status. Why did Georgia Southern and App State move up and now the big 4 think of moving up? Because they’re used to their higher status here and winning it over and over again doesn’t hit the same way.

Georgia Southern's, Coastal Carolina's, and App State's ADs negotiated themselves nice salary increases going from the highest level of FCS competition to becoming the lowest tier of FBS. That's the real reason why AD's love to gin their fan bases to move to FBS - the mere idea that (laughably) it's "moving up" in any way except in regards to their salary. Regular fans are not fooled. They doggedly still don't care about Coastal Carolina athletics, whether FCS or FBS.

[Tribe4SF]

Georgia Southern's, Coastal Carolina's, and App State's ADs negotiated themselves nice salary increases going from the highest level of FCS competition to becoming the lowest tier of FBS. That's the real reason why AD's love to gin their fan bases to move to FBS - the mere idea that (laughably) it's "moving up" in any way except in regards to their salary. Regular fans are not fooled. They doggedly still don't care about Coastal Carolina athletics, whether FCS or FBS.

Having just played at Coastal Carolina two weeks ago I can tell you that you're wrong.

[Pards Rule]

So Brown vs Dartmouth is a big deal? It strikes me as a contrived rivalry match-up along the lines of Albany vs Stony Brook. A game to be played on the last Saturday of the regular season when the real rivalry games are played, like Harvard vs Yale, so as not to feel left out. No reason not to want to play in a true playoff against the best teams that season in the subdivision.

The true rivalry games are when the alumni who don't care about football, all of sudden care about football for one weekend. They are far and few between: Army vs Navy, Harvard vs Yale, Lehigh vs Lafayette, Oklahoma vs Texas, et cetera, et cetera, etc.

True this my friend! When are we going to see each other in Durham? Ready for rematch!

[ElCid]

Ope, you're right, sorry for stepping out of line.... Now grandpa, it's time for your meds.... Your nurses will be around soon - don't want them to catch you up after your 6 pm bedtime. Hope you don't soil yourself like the past 4 nights... always a nuisance for them to have to clean up your BS.

You do realize he is like in his mid 20s, right?

[FUBeAR]

You do realize he is like in his mid 20s, right?
RoT will forever be YT to FUBeAR. Still a young teen with a whole world yet to conquer.

[Catbooster]

Yes, YoungTerrier doesn't remember that 20 years ago it was us travelling down south for our playoff games.

But kudos to him for keeping the discussion going.

[Reign of Terrier]

Critique taken and understood.... My apologies, JackFan40 ---- this did get a bit aggressive at the end (legitimately).

Reign of terror... to put it more politely, your comment is super echo-chambery and doesn’t deserve a response, partially because you can’t or won’t understand what I’m saying.

Better.

(On a serious and buzzed note, my comment was very much a non-punt of a response in that, if you see the way I post, we'd go back and forth with hundreds of words to not avail and neither of us had time for that. Maybe YT did, but ROT doesn't)


You do realize he is like in his mid 20s, right?

I turned 30 early this year, but I would guess I'm still on the younger end of posters here


RoT will forever be YT to FUBeAR. Still a young teen with a world yet to conquer.

In AGS years of experience I'm older than you!


Yes, YoungTerrier doesn't remember that 20 years ago it was us travelling down south for our playoff games.

But kudos to him for keeping the discussion going.

Montana State has won 1 road playoff game in school history and I'm not saying this as a dunk, but just to point out Wofford won our second try. I ask anyone who really wants to compare the away schedule, the Big Sky - simply for geographic reasons - is a little advantaged here and I don't think that's good.

I have conceded the fact that Wofford probably won't win a title anytime soon, if ever since 2016. At that point I just want want it to be a fun experience and losing in a meaningless bowl game at, say, Gardner Webb in mid December, where Wofford fans can feasibly travel is a little more exciting than getting curb stomped in Fargo over Thanksgiving weekend.

[POD Knows]

Better.

(On a serious and buzzed note, my comment was very much a non-punt of a response in that, if you see the way I post, we'd go back and forth with hundreds of words to not avail and neither of us had time for that. Maybe YT did, but ROT doesn't)



I turned 30 early this year, but I would guess I'm still on the younger end of posters here



In AGS years of experience I'm older than you!



Montana State has won 1 road playoff game in school history and I'm not saying this as a dunk, but just to point out Wofford won our second try. I ask anyone who really wants to compare the away schedule, the Big Sky - simply for geographic reasons - is a little advantaged here and I don't think that's good.

I have conceded the fact that Wofford probably won't win a title anytime soon, if ever since 2016. At that point I just want want it to be a fun experience and losing in a meaningless bowl game at, say, Gardner Webb in mid December, where Wofford fans can feasibly travel is a little more exciting than getting curb stomped in Fargo over Thanksgiving weekend.
If NDSU plays you on a Thanksgiving it would be more depressing for us, trust me on that.

[Reign of Terrier]

If NDSU plays you on a Thanksgiving it would be more depressing for us, trust me on that.

Playing on Thanksgiving period sucks and I'm tired of anyone pretending otherwise*



*Would love Wofford to play on Thanksgiving this year given how the last 4 years have gone

[Catbooster]

Montana State has won 1 road playoff game in school history and I'm not saying this as a dunk, but just to point out Wofford won our second try. I ask anyone who really wants to compare the away schedule, the Big Sky - simply for geographic reasons - is a little advantaged here and I don't think that's good.

I have conceded the fact that Wofford probably won't win a title anytime soon, if ever since 2016. At that point I just want want it to be a fun experience and losing in a meaningless bowl game at, say, Gardner Webb in mid December, where Wofford fans can feasibly travel is a little more exciting than getting curb stomped in Fargo over Thanksgiving weekend.
My point was not about home field advantages. I don't think anyone will dispute that having homefield advantage is huge in the playoffs. But these things tend to change. We used to have to travel down south/east for the playoffs 20 years ago. Now you have to travel up north/west. Universities move up, make a bad coaching hire, new president that doesn't value football, etc. and someone else takes their place.

If you are a typical opinion for your university fanbase, it's very simple: opt out of the playoffs and set up a bowl game. Several conferences opt out of the playoffs and a few have set up their own bowl games. No one is forcing your school to take part. I would be disappointed if you did that, but each school has to do what's best for them.

I do think (maybe hope is a better word) that seeding 16 teams will help with this.

[RahRahRabbits]

You do realize he is like in his mid 20s, right?

I don't discriminate on actual age... but no, I didn't know that. I still stand by my thoughts though.

[KnightoftheRedFlash]

Having just played at Coastal Carolina two weeks ago I can tell you that you're wrong.

He is wrong about most things.

[KPSUL]

True this my friend! When are we going to see each other in Durham? Ready for rematch!

I guess both our teams need to make the playoffs and UNH gets the seed. A lot of football between now and that happening! Maybe you can find two new attractive young ladies at UNH to take a photo with your leopard.

[Outsider1]

Bringing up an old thread, but Matt had a good blurb article today. I have always argued that the P4 split is coming. At the beginning of this thread was the question of a DI split vs just FBS split, which is where my mind was always at. The P4 is continuing to do its thing, The gap between the G6 and FCS grows narrower and the P4 split since they are the primary minor farm league in disguise. Am I right? I have always kinda wondered why it really hasn't happened already, or at least why we haven't been hearing more directly about it. Why would the P4 want the G6 around? Matt makes some sense in what he is hearing. The P4 wants to have its cake and eat it to, normal for most everyone, and especially all businesses. Keep the G6 around to share some revenue for posterity's sake, but most of all to share liability and cost. It continues to dangle the carrot for the G6 teams while the P4 maintains control, power, the majority of the money and post season grandeur. If any trouble comes around the P4 gets to have the G6 help carry the burden... I could be oversimplifying it, but it would make sense. It seems like a simple age-old thing.

No, I don't think the P4 Split is coming (right now) (https://www.extrapointsmb.com/p/no-i-don-t-think-the-p4-split-is-coming-right-now?_bhlid=26688603d2610e09a7039182eae39862a39c75e 1&utm_campaign=no-i-don-t-think-the-p4-split-is-coming-right-now&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_source=www.extrapointsmb.com)

[SiouxFallsRabbits]

Bringing up an old thread, but Matt had a good blurb article today. I have always argued that the P4 split is coming. At the beginning of this thread was the question of a DI split vs just FBS split, which is where my mind was always at. The P4 is continuing to do its thing, The gap between the G6 and FCS grows narrower and the P4 split since they are the primary minor farm league in disguise. Am I right? I have always kinda wondered why it really hasn't happened already, or at least why we haven't been hearing more directly about it. Why would the P4 want the G6 around? Matt makes some sense in what he is hearing. The P4 wants to have its cake and eat it to, normal for most everyone, and especially all businesses. Keep the G6 around to share some revenue for posterity's sake, but most of all to share liability and cost. It continues to dangle the carrot for the G6 teams while the P4 maintains control, power, the majority of the money and post season grandeur. If any trouble comes around the P4 gets to have the G6 help carry the burden... I could be oversimplifying it, but it would make sense. It seems like a simple age-old thing.

No, I don't think the P4 Split is coming (right now) (https://www.extrapointsmb.com/p/no-i-don-t-think-the-p4-split-is-coming-right-now?_bhlid=26688603d2610e09a7039182eae39862a39c75e 1&utm_campaign=no-i-don-t-think-the-p4-split-is-coming-right-now&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_source=www.extrapointsmb.com)
The P4 will be split into the P2 (Big Ten and SEC) and non-P2 (ACC and Big 12). Florida State is already trying to ditch the ACC for the P2, Clemson and Miami would presumably try and follow.

[NY Crusader 2010]

The Ivies pass on the playoffs in no small part to protect the Harvard-Yale game. The brahmin cannot imagine a world where the Crimson would win The Game and then go off to play Mercer on Thanksgiving Weekend.

Isn't the Ivy League sending it's champ to the playoffs next year? Or did I misread something?

Also, just for context, the Ivy League post-season ban far precedes the league's re-classification to I-AA in 1983. Dartmouth finished in the Top 25 in 1970 -- last Ivy to finish ranked in a major-college poll --- and declined the chance to face Penn State in a bowl game.

Answered my own question:

https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/43040720/sources-ivy-league-participate-fcs-football-playoffs

[NY Crusader 2010]

The P4 will be split into the P2 (Big Ten and SEC) and non-P2 (ACC and Big 12). Florida State is already trying to ditch the ACC for the P2, Clemson and Miami would presumably try and follow.

I think in the near term you'll have a P3 -- SEC, Big Ten, Big 12. The ACC is about to either split or the major football schools will bolt for one of the other 3. The smaller, mostly private ACC schools will end up being the equivalent of G5, G6, G7 or whatever it is. Ultimately, the top level of college football aught to just scrap conference affiliation and operate more like the NFL. Then major conference affiliation would become asymptotic to Men's Basketball instead of football and geographic sensibility would return.

[Outsider1]

I think in the near term you'll have a P3 -- SEC, Big Ten, Big 12. The ACC is about to either split or the major football schools will bolt for one of the other 3. The smaller, mostly private ACC schools will end up being the equivalent of G5, G6, G7 or whatever it is. Ultimately, the top level of college football aught to just scrap conference affiliation and operate more like the NFL. Then major conference affiliation would become asymptotic to Men's Basketball instead of football and geographic sensibility would return.

Probably, but if what Matt is saying is true, they are delaying, and/or, preventing any type of split so they can keep the G teams as a safety net until they are firmly not needed. Any new alliance between FCS and the G teams (whatever that is) isn't going to happen until whatever P teams completely break.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The P4 needs the other 90% of schools to assign blame and money. If the other 90% ever just said "We're leaving to do things our own way, thanks," I'm convinced the P4 would crap their pants.

https://www.college-sports-journal.com/opinion-non-power-five-schools-should-say-enough/

[Outsider1]

The P4 needs the other 90% of schools to assign blame and money. If the other 90% ever just said "We're leaving to do things our own way, thanks," I'm convinced the P4 would crap their pants.

https://www.college-sports-journal.com/opinion-non-power-five-schools-should-say-enough/

That's really the factor I didn't take into account.