Pac-12 Expansion - Potential FCS Repercussions

[uofmman1122]

Pac-12 plans to begin rebuilding with schools from the Mountain West: Boise State, San Diego State, Fresno State, Colorado State.

Could be more in the coming weeks. Will be interesting to see what the Mountain West plans to do after this. Do they go after FCS teams?

https://sports.yahoo.com/sources-pac-12-rebuilding-conference-targeting-boise-state-san-diego-state-fresno-state-colorado-state-033254424.html

[Utgrizfan]

I hope both Montana and MSU get the call up, I love FCS but I would love to see both playing Wyoming, Air Force, etc

[NDSUKurt]

Pac-12 plans to begin rebuilding with schools from the Mountain West: Boise State, San Diego State, Fresno State, Colorado State.

Could be more in the coming weeks. Will be interesting to see what the Mountain West plans to do after this. Do they go after FCS teams?

https://sports.yahoo.com/sources-pac-12-rebuilding-conference-targeting-boise-state-san-diego-state-fresno-state-colorado-state-033254424.html

If happens (and I think it will), there will be some changes that reach FCS. It will be dependent on if the ACC allows Stanford and Cal out of the Grant of Rights agreement or not (there were rumblings that Stanford and Cal don't like the travel issues, and that the ACC may have the same thoughts).

If the 4 schools listed in the article leave, the key will be where the "next bunch" come from to get the Pac 12 to 8, and then 10 teams.

This could lead to Montana, Montana State, NDSU, and SDSU leaving the FCS as a group for the Mountain West, and that would actually be a nice conference (remember, Hawai'i is only a football member of the Mountain West).

The next few weeks will be very telling, that's for sure.

[JacksFan40]

Brett McMurphy confirmed its official on X. Will happen in 2026. Official announcement expected Thursday.

Id imagine the PAC will want more than just 6 so maybe they target some AAC schools like UTSA, Rice, Tulane etc.? Or maybe further poaching of the MWC with someone like UNLV. Could have huge downstream impact on the FCS.

[Pards Rule]

Thats what Coach Troxell said would prob happen when I talked to him at length at June reunion. Not surprised.

[AggieManiac704]

Brett McMurphy confirmed its official on X. Will happen in 2026. Official announcement expected Thursday.

Id imagine the PAC will want more than just 6 so maybe they target some AAC schools like UTSA, Rice, Tulane etc.? Or maybe further poaching of the MWC with someone like UNLV. Could have huge downstream impact on the FCS.

This is going to get interesting indeed.

[caribbeanhen]

This is going to get interesting indeed.

did I hear a rumor that NC A&T was considering a move up? or was I just hearing things

[Laker]

Looks like it is official.

Ushering in a new era, the Pac-12 Conference strengthens its legacy by welcoming four respected academic and athletic universities - Pac-12 Conference (https://pac-12.com/news/2024/9/12/general-ushering-in-a-new-era-the-pac-12-conference-strengthens-its-legacy-by-welcoming-four-respected-academic-and-athletic-universities.aspx)

[WestCoastAggie]

did I hear a rumor that NC A&T was considering a move up? or was I just hearing things

It was a strong consideration under our previous Chancellor, Chancellor Martin 1.0. I am not sure if Chancellor Martin 2.0 (AKA Mr. All Gas, No Breaks) has the same aspirations. Being that he came from Pitt, he just may, and that's outside of the R1 Aspirations which are pretty much all but a sure thing come 2025.

Also, we did consider accepting an invite to the C-USA but our Athletic Department just wasn't ready for all that. We got to get and maintain our budget well over $20 million dollars and we got to finally renovate our dump of a baseball field, which includes the addition of our softball field, which will free up space to totally revamp our football and track facilities.

[Gater]

I spent entirely too long Googling what California State University was and wondering why they weren't showing their logo.
Ushering in a new era, the Pac-12 Conference strengthens its legacy by welcoming four respected academic and athletic universitiesBoise State University, Colorado State University, California State University, Fresno, and San Diego State University to join Oregon State and Washington State Universities.

[RahRahRabbits]

I still don't like the idea of moving up to G5 for a crappy bowl game against an "equal team" at some random stadium in a random state. The FCS playoffs is truly a great thing in my opinion. However, if the "big 4" of FCS gets the call, SDSU sure better be going with. There's of course been chatter that G5 could institute a full playoff system... but I believe that's just fan rumblings, and not anyone with any say. Getting a single bid into a 12 or 16 team P4/5 playoffs won't leave much room for potential success for anyone. I know some Bison fans think they could still compete for a Natty against Georgia/Bama/others... but let's be real... that's not seriously going to happen.

Time will tell if the P4/5 stick together, or if SEC/Big10/maybe another split off into their own non-NCAA entity? I think all these rulings that keep going against NCAA/universities show that these schools will still want to stay under the NCAA umbrella for liability's sake. I'm thinking of the $2.78 billion anti-trust lawsuit granting backpay to athletes from 2016. If I recall correctly, none of those P4/5 schools or conferences were significantly held liable for the bill, and also had a clause that they could not be held liable going forward either - with NCAA taking the brunt of all of it. So, will the likely insane amount of TV money be enough to pull those schools/conferences out of the protection of the NCAA umbrella? Time will tell... if they all stick around, I would imagine this aught to be the last major shakeup for a while. Once it's all settled of course... this won't be all sorted out overnight.

As usual, Herder put out a nice article (https://herosports.com/fcs-pac-12-rebuild-domino-effect-bzbz/) outlining some scenarios as well. He puts it as a 40% chance that the big-4 FCS teams get invited to the MWC, and 50% that at least 2 of them do. Of course, most everyone is aware the Montana schools have to move together, while there is nothing specifically requiring NDSU/SDSU to do the same.

[RahRahRabbits]

I spent entirely too long Googling what California State University was and wondering why they weren't showing their logo.

Ushering in a new era, the Pac-12 Conference strengthens its legacy by welcoming four respected academic and athletic universities

Boise State University, Colorado State University, California State University, Fresno, and San Diego State University to join Oregon State and Washington State Universities.



Ha! That got me as well... Do we need a Supreme Court ruling to make these institutional universities to use a hyphen instead?

"Boise State University, Colorado State University, California State University - Fresno, and San Diego State University to join Oregon State and Washington State Universities." --- That sure clears things up when in a comma-heavy list.

[MR. CHICKEN]

[FONT=Verdana]

Ha! That got me as well... Do we need a Supreme Court ruling to make these institutional universities to use a hyphen instead?

"Boise State University, Colorado State University, California State University - Fresno, and San Diego State University to join Oregon State and Washington State Universities." --- That sure clears things up when in a comma-heavy list.

FROM WIKI!

​California State University, Fresno (Fresno State) is a public university (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_university) in Fresno, California (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fresno,_California), United States. It is part of the California State University (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_State_University) system.[7] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_State_University,_Fresno#cite_note-forbes.com-7) The university had a fall 2020 enrollment of 25,341 students.[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_State_University,_Fresno#cite_note-Enrollment-3) It offers 60 bachelor's degree (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bachelor%27s_degree)program, 45 master's degree (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master%27s_degree) programs, 3 doctoral degree (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctoral_degree) programs, 12 certificates of advanced study, and 2 different teaching credentials (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teaching_credential).[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_State_University,_Fresno#cite_note-fresnostate-8)[9] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_State_University,_Fresno#cite_note-Division_of_Graduate_Studies-9) The university is classified (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnegie_Classification_of_Institutions_of_Higher_ Education)among "R2: Doctoral Universities – High research activity".[10] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_State_University,_Fresno#cite_note-10)[11] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_State_University,_Fresno#cite_note-11) Fresno is a Hispanic-serving institution (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispanic-serving_institution) (HSI)[12] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_State_University,_Fresno#cite_note-12) and is eligible to be designated as an Asian American Native American Pacific Islander serving institution (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minority-serving_institution) (AANAPISI).[13] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_State_University,_Fresno#cite_note-13)


.....WHATTAH 'BOUT @.............BRAWK?

[caribbeanhen]

It was a strong consideration under our previous Chancellor, Chancellor Martin 1.0. I am not sure if Chancellor Martin 2.0 (AKA Mr. All Gas, No Breaks) has the same aspirations. Being that he came from Pitt, he just may, and that's outside of the R1 Aspirations which are pretty much all but a sure thing come 2025.

Also, we did consider accepting an invite to the C-USA but our Athletic Department just wasn't ready for all that. We got to get and maintain our budget well over $20 million dollars and we got to finally renovate our dump of a baseball field, which includes the addition of our softball field, which will free up space to totally revamp our football and track facilities.

thanks

great summary and be sure to tell them CH is conducting high level research on the Aggies lol

[jacksfan29!]

I still don't like the idea of moving up to G5 for a crappy bowl game against an "equal team" at some random stadium in a random state. The FCS playoffs is truly a great thing in my opinion. However, if the "big 4" of FCS gets the call, SDSU sure better be going with. There's of course been chatter that G5 could institute a full playoff system... but I believe that's just fan rumblings, and not anyone with any say. Getting a single bid into a 12 or 16 team P4/5 playoffs won't leave much room for potential success for anyone. I know some Bison fans think they could still compete for a Natty against Georgia/Bama/others... but let's be real... that's not seriously going to happen.

Time will tell if the P4/5 stick together, or if SEC/Big10/maybe another split off into their own non-NCAA entity? I think all these rulings that keep going against NCAA/universities show that these schools will still want to stay under the NCAA umbrella for liability's sake. I'm thinking of the $2.78 billion anti-trust lawsuit granting backpay to athletes from 2016. If I recall correctly, none of those P4/5 schools or conferences were significantly held liable for the bill, and also had a clause that they could not be held liable going forward either - with NCAA taking the brunt of all of it. So, will the likely insane amount of TV money be enough to pull those schools/conferences out of the protection of the NCAA umbrella? Time will tell... if they all stick around, I would imagine this aught to be the last major shakeup for a while. Once it's all settled of course... this won't be all sorted out overnight.

As usual, Herder put out a nice article (https://herosports.com/fcs-pac-12-rebuild-domino-effect-bzbz/) outlining some scenarios as well. He puts it as a 40% chance that the big-4 FCS teams get invited to the MWC, and 50% that at least 2 of them do. Of course, most everyone is aware the Montana schools have to move together, while there is nothing specifically requiring NDSU/SDSU to do the same.

Change is hard but there is coming a time when SDSU and NDSU will need to jump. G5 is headed toward being a separate division with FCS style playoffs. This move by OSU and WSU (Pac 2) will reach far and deep into realignment. The AAC will be affected as Memphis and Tulane are almost certain to want in on a new PAC. Air Force will almost certainly look to join Army and Navy in the AAC (maybe in all sports unlike the older two Academies) and New Mexico will look to join them. It is possible UNLV look hard at moving to the AAC. Stanford and Cal will want to move back west, the ACC will more than likely be affected soon by the Big 12 who are rumored to be targeting some eastern schools to add to UCF, WVU, Cincy. AD Sell has always said, SDSU will be ready when the right move comes along, this may be that right move. Being left in FCS minus NDSU is not feasible for SDSU. According to Knightnewhouse SDSU spent just under $9 million for football last year. That kind of money is not being spent to be left behind by your main rival.

Herder's article was written prior to this move by the PAC. All bets are off. This move by the PAC 2 is a BIG DEAL and will change the structure of football out west and in the east.

[caribbeanhen]

the modern Mount Rushmore of FCS will have to be torn down and rebuilt..... goodbye Montana, Montana State, South Dakota State and North Dakota State

[ElCid]

[FONT=Verdana]

Ha! That got me as well... Do we need a Supreme Court ruling to make these institutional universities to use a hyphen instead?

"Boise State University, Colorado State University, California State University - Fresno, and San Diego State University to join Oregon State and Washington State Universities." --- That sure clears things up when in a comma-heavy list.

Correct punctuation is a bitch. I was scratching my head as well.

[McCowboys]

​California State University, Fresno (Fresno State) is a public university (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_university) in Fresno, California (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fresno,_California), United States. It is part of the California State University (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_State_University) system.[7] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_State_University,_Fresno#cite_note-forbes.com-7) The university had a fall 2020 enrollment of 25,341 students.[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_State_University,_Fresno#cite_note-Enrollment-3) It offers 60 bachelor's degree (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bachelor%27s_degree)program, 45 master's degree (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master%27s_degree) programs, 3 doctoral degree (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctoral_degree) programs, 12 certificates of advanced study, and 2 different teaching credentials (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teaching_credential).[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_State_University,_Fresno#cite_note-fresnostate-8)[9] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_State_University,_Fresno#cite_note-Division_of_Graduate_Studies-9) The university is classified (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnegie_Classification_of_Institutions_of_Higher_ Education)among "R2: Doctoral Universities – High research activity".[10] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_State_University,_Fresno#cite_note-10)[11] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_State_University,_Fresno#cite_note-11) Fresno is a Hispanic-serving institution (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispanic-serving_institution) (HSI)[12] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_State_University,_Fresno#cite_note-12) and is eligible to be designated as an Asian American Native American Pacific Islander serving institution (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minority-serving_institution) (AANAPISI).[13] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_State_University,_Fresno#cite_note-13)


.....WHATTAH 'BOUT @.............BRAWK!

Thank you, MR. CHICKEN! I would give you a rep for this, but they say I have to give it to someone else because I've given too many to you already. LOL! Have a great day!

[SeattleCat]

For Montana and Montana State its now or never.

I believe it will be now and UM, MSU, NDSU SDSU will all be MWC members and that would be sweet!

[RahRahRabbits]

Change is hard but there is coming a time when SDSU and NDSU will need to jump. G5 is headed toward being a separate division with FCS style playoffs. This move by OSU and WSU (Pac 2) will reach far and deep into realignment. The AAC will be affected as Memphis and Tulane are almost certain to want in on a new PAC. Air Force will almost certainly look to join Army and Navy in the AAC (maybe in all sports unlike the older two Academies) and New Mexico will look to join them. It is possible UNLV look hard at moving to the AAC. Stanford and Cal will want to move back west, the ACC will more than likely be affected soon by the Big 12 who are rumored to be targeting some eastern schools to add to UCF, WVU, Cincy. AD Sell has always said, SDSU will be ready when the right move comes along, this may be that right move. Being left in FCS minus NDSU is not feasible for SDSU. According to Knightnewhouse SDSU spent just under $9 million for football last year. That kind of money is not being spent to be left behind by your main rival.

Herder's article was written prior to this move by the PAC. All bets are off. This move by the PAC 2 is a BIG DEAL and will change the structure of football out west and in the east.

The one I linked was just put out today, after the announcement of 4 MW's to the Pac-12 (6? 6+?). It's all going to depend on what the new Pac-12 is going to want to target, and what MW's choices are. If they want what would make the best on-field product for the conference, the choice is clear to pull up these top-4 out of the FCS (and maybe a few others? --- Idaho getting another FBS shot that makes more sense geographically?). If they want to chase TV markets... these 4 might be left out yet again. Time will tell!

[MR. CHICKEN]

Thank you, MR. CHICKEN! I would give you a rep for this, but they say I have to give it to someone else because I've given too many to you already. LOL! Have a great day!

......GIVE 'EM...TA MU HAWKS.......SEEMS HIS FUNNY BONE....HAS GONE LIMP.......BRAWK!

[Libertine]

Id imagine the PAC will want more than just 6 so maybe they target some AAC schools like UTSA, Rice, Tulane etc.? Or maybe further poaching of the MWC with someone like UNLV. Could have huge downstream impact on the FCS.

They have to. To be an FBS conference, you have to have at least 8 members so the Pac-?? still needs at least two more and the Mountain West needs at least one more just to reach the base minimum. I seriously doubt that the Pac-whatever takes FCS schools but it gets slim pickings for them out west as nearly all of the football-playing schools in their geographic footprint either just left them or are the members of the Mountain West that likely either didn't come when called or Pac didn't want. I can easily see UTSA but Rice and Tulane are both private schools with undergrad enrollments under 10k; Texas State out of the Sun Belt would be a better target for their 8th, in my opinion. Or could they throw down an Uno reverse card and pluck a possibly disillusioned member of the Big 12 like, say, Houston or TCU?

For the Mountain West, they have to take at least one new member and I doubt they want NM State or UTEP. MWC membership would be a lateral move right now for Texas State so I don't see that happening either. Honestly, I don't see how the Big Sky avoids getting raided at least a little bit by the Mountain West, since they'll need to get at least one more member to get to minimum membership and then will probably want a few more members just as a safeguard for unforeseen realignment in the future.

[MSUBobcat]

I hope both Montana and MSU get the call up, I love FCS but I would love to see both playing Wyoming, Air Force, etc

My "shoot from the hip" initial thought is the PAC (1)2, sitting at 6, should add Idaho (on the rise since rejoining FCS, but maybe not willing to jump back up so soon), Montana and Montana State in recreating the Pacific Coast Conference of yore. OSU, Wazzou, Idaho and Montana were in a conference together from 1924 to 1950. This creates a nice, neat 9 team PAC 12 (and reduces the Big Sky to the same). From a travel perspective (for the Big Sky schools leaving) going to Oregon State isn't much different than Portland State, swap Wazzou for EWU, Boise St. for Weber State, Colorado State for NoCo, San Diego St for Cal Poly and Fresno State for Sac St & UC Davis. We'd no longer go to Flagstaff but would lose the bus trip to Pocatello (not a loss at all).

If more MWC schools leave for the PAC 12, I could see UM, MSU, and the Dakota schools being potentially sought after, but that adds to the poaching/exit fees that the PAC 12 is reportedly paying/assisting the departing schools in paying. Will be interesting to see how the PAC 12 fills in to at least 8 teams to qualify as an FBS conference.

[RahRahRabbits]

If any of these big-4 do jump, I'd imagine it would be an all-sport invite, right? Mountain West doesn't sponsor wrestling, but Air Force and Wyoming are already in the Big 12 for wrestling, right where NDSU/SDSU are already. The ripples would certainly be felt in Big Sky, MVFC, and Summit league as well. Would Augie be in position to move up, or will their new hockey program still hold them back? Would Univ of Minnesota/MN legislature/BOR allow any Minnesota State universities to move up?

Mountain West will be receiving $111 million in exit fees from the 4 schools departing, according to something called Brett McMurphy via Xwitter (https://x.com/Brett_McMurphy/status/1834098490818924716). i would imagine they could use that to help with the FBS entry fee if any FCS schools needed? Not sure how healthy the Montana coffers are, as they needed a little help in moving their band last year ;)

[JALMOND]

If happens (and I think it will), there will be some changes that reach FCS. It will be dependent on if the ACC allows Stanford and Cal out of the Grant of Rights agreement or not (there were rumblings that Stanford and Cal don't like the travel issues, and that the ACC may have the same thoughts).



A lot of truth here. When the initial Pac-12 dissolved, Stanford and Cal thought they too were going to get left behind. The ACC was not too crazy about going national and those two schools were not too crazy about playing in an eastern conference, but it seemed both the California schools and the ACC reluctantly went with it in order to stay relevant. I don't know what it would take to get them back to the Pac-8(??) but I suspect both them and the ACC would not mind.

[ElCid]

The one I linked was just put out today, after the announcement of 4 MW's to the Pac-12 (6? 6+?). It's all going to depend on what the new Pac-12 is going to want to target, and what MW's choices are. If they want what would make the best on-field product for the conference, the choice is clear to pull up these top-4 out of the FCS (and maybe a few others? --- Idaho getting another FBS shot that makes more sense geographically?). If they want to chase TV markets... these 4 might be left out yet again. Time will tell!

That last bit is key. Gaining the coveted Montana and Dakota TV market is probably high on their target (that should be read with gobs of dripping sarcasm). The population of all three is a good chunk under 3M. Not sure performance will be the top requirement. They would probably rip through the conf in a couple years, and then they would dominate forever, but that don't pay the bills. Sad. But they may take just two......

[SeattleCat]

If any of these big-4 do jump, I'd imagine it would be an all-sport invite, right? Mountain West doesn't sponsor wrestling, but Air Force and Wyoming are already in the Big 12 for wrestling, right where NDSU/SDSU are already. The ripples would certainly be felt in Big Sky, MVFC, and Summit league as well. Would Augie be in position to move up, or will their new hockey program still hold them back? Would Univ of Minnesota/MN legislature/BOR allow any Minnesota State universities to move up?

Mountain West will be receiving $111 million in exit fees from the 4 schools departing, according to something called Brett McMurphy via Xwitter (https://x.com/Brett_McMurphy/status/1834098490818924716). i would imagine they could use that to help with the FBS entry fee if any FCS schools needed? Not sure how healthy the Montana coffers are, as they needed a little help in moving their band last year ;)

The Montana schools have the funds to make the move.

[jacksfan29!]

My "shoot from the hip" initial thought is the PAC (1)2, sitting at 6, should add Idaho (on the rise since rejoining FCS, but maybe not willing to jump back up so soon), Montana and Montana State in recreating the Pacific Coast Conference of yore. OSU, Wazzou, Idaho and Montana were in a conference together from 1924 to 1950. This creates a nice, neat 9 team PAC 12 (and reduces the Big Sky to the same). From a travel perspective (for the Big Sky schools leaving) going to Oregon State isn't much different than Portland State, swap Wazzou for EWU, Boise St. for Weber State, Colorado State for NoCo, San Diego St for Cal Poly and Fresno State for Sac St & UC Davis. We'd no longer go to Flagstaff but would lose the bus trip to Pocatello (not a loss at all).

If more MWC schools leave for the PAC 12, I could see UM, MSU, and the Dakota schools being potentially sought after, but that adds to the poaching/exit fees that the PAC 12 is reportedly paying/assisting the departing schools in paying. Will be interesting to see how the PAC 12 fills in to at least 8 teams to qualify as an FBS conference.

I don't think you understand what is happening. OSU and WSU/PAC 2 are looking to stay at the highest level and get the best TV deal. The new PAC is not adding anyone outside of the 4 from the MWC. The next step is a likely move of Stanford and Cal back west to the PAC, top AAC schools Tulane and Memphis will be next. That gives them 10 to start, but that won't be the end. It is almost certain Air Force now take the long-known invite to the AAC to join Army and Navy. UNLV, New Mexico will both want out and will push for AAC membership. No Big Sky schools is getting a PAC invite.

[Outsider1]

Here is another article on it that mentioned some FCS names.

https://herosports.com/fcs-pac-12-rebuild-domino-effect-bzbz/

[jacksfan29!]

MSU may, but does UM? There has to be a reason that UM spent $10 million on a bubble instead of putting up an IPF.

[jacksfan29!]

That last bit is key. Gaining the coveted Montana and Dakota TV market is probably high on their target (that should be read with gobs of dripping sarcasm). The population of all three is a good chunk under 3M. Not sure performance will be the top requirement. They would probably rip through the conf in a couple years, and then they would dominate forever, but that don't pay the bills. Sad. But they may take just two......

Have you ever been to Wyoming or seen the school's campus or city? One thing discussed recently; the "markets" moves have not benefited leagues. Adding a school in a city where no one cares didn't even help the Big 10 that much when they added Rutgers. Being someone in your market, is better than being no one in your market.

[jacksfan29!]

If what happens is what many think, where the MWC also loses AFA and one or both UNLV and New Mexico, not sure there are markets for them to chase. UTEP and NMSU would be the top choices, maybe Sac or Davis if they want "markets". The MWC could fully implode, much like the WAC ended up falling apart after the airport meeting when the MWC was created. The next move, as someone mentioned, the ACC allowing Standford and Cal to walk (which I think happens). After that, the real movement will begin.

[JacksFan40]

Have you ever been to Wyoming or seen the school's campus or city? One thing discussed recently; the "markets" moves have not benefited leagues. Adding a school in a city where no one cares didn't even help the Big 10 that much when they added Rutgers. Being someone in your market, is better than being no one in your market.
From what I’ve seen the Big Ten and media sponsors have benefitted immensely from the NYC market due to Rutgers proximity. If adding these schools in big markets wasn’t working they wouldn’t keep doing it. Expect the PAC to target some of the big AAC markets like UTSA, Rice, Tulane, and Memphis.

[Outsider1]

Either way, it will trickle down and have effects, mostly on the Big Sky, Summit/MVFC and WAC/UAC.

[ElCid]

Have you ever been to Wyoming or seen the school's campus or city? One thing discussed recently; the "markets" moves have not benefited leagues. Adding a school in a city where no one cares didn't even help the Big 10 that much when they added Rutgers. Being someone in your market, is better than being no one in your market.

Yeah I get it. But the Rutgers thing was ridiculous. Nobody in NJ cared about Rutgers, let alone people in the middle of Indiana or Illinois. I can say that having grown up in NJ. The entire realignment thing is horrible when it comes to enthusiasm. I sit and ponder what if someone like San Diego or California Poly wanted to join the SOCON. I would be like, who cares. Not that I dislike either of those teams, but really. I'm supposed to get excited over that? Closest I've been to Wyoming is watching Laramie. Flown over it a bunch. One of my five remaining states to visit. But again I get it. I'm pretty sure in order to get to their minimum number of teams, these conferences would take the Sisters of Mercy. They'd probably like four very good teams instead. But they will also probably court established G5 programs first, in bigger markets. Poaching other G5 teams is probably better for them.

[wapiti]

Which FCS schools that fit geographically with MWC have the best market potential? (Not just a quality team)
Sac State
UC Davis


Maybe's on the market size
NAU
Weber (Not too far from U Utah and BYU)
Abilene Christian (Shares city with Texas Tech)
Portland State
Cal Poly
Idaho

I'm shooting from my hip on these. So nothing but guesses.
I am unsure of the market size for the Montana and Dakota schools when compared to other areas, but they may fit on the maybe list. Bozeman population growth the past few years has been crazy.

[MR. CHICKEN]

Yeah I get it. But the Rutgers thing was ridiculous. Nobody in NJ cared about Rutgers, let alone people in the middle of Indiana or Illinois. I can say that having grown up in NJ. The entire realignment thing is horrible when it comes to enthusiasm. I sit and ponder what if someone like San Diego or California Poly wanted to join the SOCON. I would be like, who cares. Not that I dislike either of those teams, but really. I'm supposed to get excited over that? Closest I've been to Wyoming is watching Laramie. Flown over it a bunch. One of my five remaining states to visit. But again I get it. I'm pretty sure in order to get to their minimum number of teams, these conferences would take the Sisters of Mercy. They'd probably like four very good teams instead. But they will also probably court established G5 programs first, in bigger markets. Poaching other G5 teams is probably better for them.

.....AH'D BET INDIANA/ILLINOIS.....CARE 'BOUT RUTGERS/MARYLAND.....OWN-LAH ONE OR 2 SKOOLS THEY CAN BEAT......AWK!

[MSUBobcat]

I don't think you understand what is happening. OSU and WSU/PAC 2 are looking to stay at the highest level and get the best TV deal. The new PAC is not adding anyone outside of the 4 from the MWC. The next step is a likely move of Stanford and Cal back west to the PAC, top AAC schools Tulane and Memphis will be next. That gives them 10 to start, but that won't be the end. It is almost certain Air Force now take the long-known invite to the AAC to join Army and Navy. UNLV, New Mexico will both want out and will push for AAC membership. No Big Sky schools is getting a PAC invite.

The ship to stay at the "highest level" has long sailed for the PAC12. The left-behinds of OSU and Wazzou adding the likes of Fresno and Colorado State is not changing that. At this point, they're just trying to remain a viable conference toward the top of the G6. If they can get Stanford and Cal to take a step back and leave the ACC (which does make a lot of sense) that still doesn't raise the PAC to the stature of the other P4 conferences. Adding Tulane and Memphis doesn't raise it to P4 level either, though the current 6 plus Stanford and Cal would be a more attractive conference than staying in the AAC.d

[DFW HOYA]

If they can get Stanford and Cal to take a step back and leave the ACC (which does make a lot of sense) that still doesn't raise the PAC to the stature of the other P4 conferences.

Put aside the grant of rights that these schools signed up for, the ESPN contract is based on a minimum of 15 schools. Dropping two takes the ACC back to 15 in football and FSU and Clemson really step up the pressure.

[ElCid]

.....AH'D BET INDIANA/ILLINOIS.....CARE 'BOUT RUTGERS/MARYLAND.....OWN-LAH ONE OR 2 SKOOLS THEY CAN BEAT......AWK!

That's actually pretty funny. Mainly because it's true. Pretty sure Rutgers was the lowest computer rated P5 for a few years.

[Professor Chaos]

Hoping my Bison don't miss this bus to FBS land because if they do it's likely going to take almost all the power in the Big Sky with it.

I also hope the MWC takes not of how the Sun Belt and CUSA handled expansion differently about 10-12 years ago. CUSA went after media markets and the SBC went after programs with passionate followings in smaller markets and it paid off for them a decade later.

[DFW HOYA]

Hoping my Bison don't miss this bus to FBS land because if they do it's likely going to take almost all the power in the Big Sky with it.


Do only state schools get a seat on the FBS bus?

[Yote 53]

The ship to stay at the "highest level" has long sailed for the PAC12. The left-behinds of OSU and Wazzou adding the likes of Fresno and Colorado State is not changing that. At this point, they're just trying to remain a viable conference toward the top of the G6. If they can get Stanford and Cal to take a step back and leave the ACC (which does make a lot of sense) that still doesn't raise the PAC to the stature of the other P4 conferences. Adding Tulane and Memphis doesn't raise it to P4 level either, though the current 6 plus Stanford and Cal would be a more attractive conference than staying in the AAC.d
The PAC doesn't need to get to P4 level. They just need to be the unequivocal top G6 conference whose champion will get that auto-invite to the Playoffs as the top G team. No, it's not an automatic bid, but it might as well be. The PAC is also done with western expansion (with the exception of Cal/Stanford). Forget regionality, they need the best G6 schools and spanning time zones is actually preferable so they have more content to sell in various time slots. It's about money, as usual.

[Outsider1]

Hoping my Bison don't miss this bus to FBS land because if they do it's likely going to take almost all the power in the Big Sky with it.

I also hope the MWC takes not of how the Sun Belt and CUSA handled expansion differently about 10-12 years ago. CUSA went after media markets and the SBC went after programs with passionate followings in smaller markets and it paid off for them a decade later.

Why wouldn't the Dakotas and Montanas get the invites?

[Professor Chaos]

Do only state schools get a seat on the FBS bus?
Liberty found a seat. ;)

[Outsider1]

Liberty found a seat. ;)

Yes we see your wink and we still correct it to bought.

[Professor Chaos]

Why wouldn't the Dakotas and Montanas get the invites?
Same reason why they haven't gotten one in the past - media market or lack thereof, isolated geographically (which is a downside for both the prospective conference and the potential member school), small population base to attract prospective students and athletes.

The MWC has always seemed like the best fit for NDSU because it's so spread out already that geography seems like less of a challenge but Fargo is still 750 miles away from the nearest MWC school (and still would be if the Montana schools joined).

I've said for years NDSU's best chance to move up is with a regional partner or 3 and this provides that opportunity. The MWC backfilling with the Montana schools, SDSU, and NDSU would be a phenomenal result and would reward NDSU's patience (which some would call inaction) when it comes to making the FBS jump. I hope the NDSU admin is doing everything they can do to position that with the MWC and those other FCS schools right now.

[ElCid]

Yes we see your wink and we still correct it to bought.

I think fright was more appropriate. Legal suits can get ugly.

[aceinthehole]

Do only state schools get a seat on the FBS bus?

What private school has the necessary resources, alumni/fan/media support, etc. to get an invite?

After Liberty (who had more resources than many publics) there is no one left at the FCS level able to make the move.

Arguably, a few of the Ivy schools could do it (Harvard/Yale/Princeton) but they are unwilling to leave the other behind to chase athletic success outside of their self-defined interests.

[DFW HOYA]

What private school has the necessary resources, alumni/fan/media support, etc. to get an invite?


Ivies
Abilene Christian
Furman
Richmond
Villanova
Holy Cross, if it wanted it
Howard/Hampton, if it really wanted it
Incarnate Word, someday

In most of these cases there is not a compatible FBS regional option for these schools. Richmond fought for years to be I-A compatible but there was no conference option for them.

[Outsider1]

Same reason why they haven't gotten one in the past - media market or lack thereof, isolated geographically (which is a downside for both the prospective conference and the potential member school), small population base to attract prospective students and athletes.

The MWC has always seemed like the best fit for NDSU because it's so spread out already that geography seems like less of a challenge but Fargo is still 750 miles away from the nearest MWC school (and still would be if the Montana schools joined).

I've said for years NDSU's best chance to move up is with a regional partner or 3 and this provides that opportunity. The MWC backfilling with the Montana schools, SDSU, and NDSU would be a phenomenal result and would reward NDSU's patience (which some would call inaction) when it comes to making the FBS jump. I hope the NDSU admin is doing everything they can do to position that with the MWC and those other FCS schools right now.

True, but if the Pac doesn't take you, the backfill for the MW would probably need to this go-around.

[Outsider1]

I think fright was more appropriate. Legal suits can get ugly.

Could be.

[SeattleCat]

Same reason why they haven't gotten one in the past - media market or lack thereof, isolated geographically (which is a downside for both the prospective conference and the potential member school), small population base to attract prospective students and athletes.

The MWC has always seemed like the best fit for NDSU because it's so spread out already that geography seems like less of a challenge but Fargo is still 750 miles away from the nearest MWC school (and still would be if the Montana schools joined).

I've said for years NDSU's best chance to move up is with a regional partner or 3 and this provides that opportunity. The MWC backfilling with the Montana schools, SDSU, and NDSU would be a phenomenal result and would reward NDSU's patience (which some would call inaction) when it comes to making the FBS jump. I hope the NDSU admin is doing everything they can do to position that with the MWC and those other FCS schools right now.

I hope the MT schools are doing the same. One thing to consider for NDSU and SDSU is they strengthen the MWC right away, and it's going to need some strength as its powers leave.

[Outsider1]

I hope the MT schools are doing the same. One thing to consider for NDSU and SDSU is they strengthen the MWC right away, and it's going to need some strength as its powers leave.

That's what I think, but I also think the Montanas do as well. Not saying all 4 would go necessarily, but this is one of the biggest movements in this area. So, I think both states come into play more.

[SeattleCat]

That's what I think, but I also think the Montanas do as well. Not saying all 4 would go necessarily, but this is one of the biggest movements in this area. So, I think both states come into play more.

I would absolutely love to see all 4 go to the MWC, what a fun conference it would be!

[ElCid]

Ivies
Abilene Christian
Furman
Richmond
Villanova
Holy Cross, if it wanted it
Howard/Hampton, if it really wanted it
Incarnate Word, someday

In most of these cases there is not a compatible FBS regional option for these schools. Richmond fought for years to be I-A compatible but there was no conference option for them.

Just for kicks and giggles, outside of the Ivies there are 6 FCS schools that are included in top 120 endowments in the country. They better than most P4 schools. Not that that is the only requirement, and some may not be available for athletics, but it certainly helps. A couple were expected. A couple were surprises. Looking at the amounts, Holy Cross, Villanova, Abilene Christian, Furman and Hampton fell just short of the list. But they are all very comfortable financially. Howard wasn't even close.

In order:

Richmond
Georgetown
Lehigh
W&M (public)
Colgate
Davidson

[SDFS]

If the Mountain West needs to backfill from FCS (10% chance of that happening): The logical schools would be in order: Cal-Davis, Sac St, Idaho, (UM, MSU). If they decide to expand into Texas at the FCS level then this list I have UM/MSU paired. Not sure how much they add for two schools from a state with a population of 1.1 m. Same for the Dakotas (ND 720K and SD 980K). A reminder most of conference realignment has not been about on the field performance.

[DFW HOYA]

In order:
Richmond
Georgetown
Lehigh
W&M (public)
Colgate
Davidson

Small item, but Georgetown ($3.28 billion) passed Richmond ($3.15 billion) in 2023. The Spiders still have a higher endowment per student metric.

[ElCid]

Small item, but Georgetown ($3.28 billion) passed Richmond ($3.15 billion) in 2023. The Spiders still have a higher endowment per student metric.

Yeah it was on old list. 2021, 22? Newest one I found.

[Russ B]

I spent entirely too long Googling what California State University was and wondering why they weren't showing their logo.
Ushering in a new era, the Pac-12 Conference strengthens its legacy by welcoming four respected academic and athletic universities

Boise State University, Colorado State University, California State University, Fresno, and San Diego State University to join Oregon State and Washington State Universities.



What's weird about that list is that nobody calls Fresno "CSU, Fresno." They are Fresno State. Could have avoided the whole punctuation issue by using their common name! :D

[Vandal03]

I probably am a bit biased after a bad FBS experience, but is joining a weakened MWC better than the Big Sky or MVFC? The MWC’s tv revenue is going to be greatly reduced without the schools that are leaving for the PAC-12 and there would be increased costs to compete. With the expanded playoffs bowl games will become less a meaningful. I think FCS teams should wait until the Big 10 and SEC breakaway before contemplating a move.

[MSUBobcat]

I would absolutely love to see all 4 go to the MWC, what a fun conference it would be!

Question for the fans in the Dakotas... would politics (Board of Regents/Board of Higher Ed) allow for the DSU to accept an FBS invite and not the U of? I don't know how that would play out in MT, but it seems fairly unanimous that both schools in MT would be lumped together anyway.

[nodak651]

Question for the fans in the Dakotas... would politics (Board of Regents/Board of Higher Ed) allow for the DSU to accept an FBS invite and not the U of? I don't know how that would play out in MT, but it seems fairly unanimous that both schools in MT would be lumped together anyway.
In ND, I'm not aware of any laws or rules that would technically prevent it. They wouldn't get any additional funding from the state for it though.

[MSUBobcat]

What's weird about that list is that nobody calls Fresno "CSU, Fresno." They are Fresno State. Could have avoided the whole punctuation issue by using their common name! :D

Same with Sacramento State and Long Beach State. And then there's Cal State, Fullerton to muck it up by not being Fullerton State, IIRC....

[ST_Lawson]

Which FCS schools that fit geographically with MWC have the best market potential? (Not just a quality team)
Sac State
UC Davis


Maybe's on the market size
NAU
Weber (Not too far from U Utah and BYU)
Abilene Christian (Shares city with Texas Tech)
Portland State
Cal Poly
Idaho

I'm shooting from my hip on these. So nothing but guesses.
I am unsure of the market size for the Montana and Dakota schools when compared to other areas, but they may fit on the maybe list. Bozeman population growth the past few years has been crazy.

I feel like with the Montana and Dakota schools, "market size" is really more of the entire state rather than just the "metro area" that they're contained in. Not that any of those states have a huge population, but they do have a fairly substantial following of people who will travel a lot further than most schools' fans and spend more money.

Portland is a bigger market than Fargo, but you have a lot more "die hard" fans willing to drive 2, 3, 4 hours every home game to watch NDSU than you do to see Portland State. I'd bet that if you totaled up the college football fans in the Portland metro area for each team, Portland State would probably be 4th or 5th most popular behind Oregon, Oregon State, Washington...maybe even Boise State. You do the same for Fargo and idk...the number of NDSU fans might be #2 behind Minnesota, but I doubt it.

[Reign of Terrier]

Ivies
Abilene Christian
Furman
Richmond
Villanova
Holy Cross, if it wanted it
Howard/Hampton, if it really wanted it
Incarnate Word, someday

In most of these cases there is not a compatible FBS regional option for these schools. Richmond fought for years to be I-A compatible but there was no conference option for them.

I won’t speak for Furman 100%, but i’m pretty sure they don’t

[Russ B]

Same with Sacramento State and Long Beach State. And then there's Cal State, Fullerton to muck it up by not being Fullerton State, IIRC....

Yeah, there's a group of [Location] State schools and a group of CSU [Location] with a sub-group of Cal State [Location], plus the three Cal Polys. All part of the same system, but different naming conventions. xdontknowx

[JALMOND]

I feel like with the Montana and Dakota schools, "market size" is really more of the entire state rather than just the "metro area" that they're contained in. Not that any of those states have a huge population, but they do have a fairly substantial following of people who will travel a lot further than most schools' fans and spend more money.

Portland is a bigger market than Fargo, but you have a lot more "die hard" fans willing to drive 2, 3, 4 hours every home game to watch NDSU than you do to see Portland State. I'd bet that if you totaled up the college football fans in the Portland metro area for each team, Portland State would probably be 4th or 5th most popular behind Oregon, Oregon State, Washington...maybe even Boise State. You do the same for Fargo and idk...the number of NDSU fans might be #2 behind Minnesota, but I doubt it.

From my experience, my humble guess of the loyalty of the Portland football fan...

1. Oregon
2. Oregon State
3. Montana
4. Washington
5. Washington State
6. Montana State
7. Boise State
8. UCLA
9. Utah
10. Eastern Washington
.
.
.
.
87. Portland State

[Reign of Terrier]

So, the talk of media market and conference realignment was a big thing in 2010ish when conference realignment was huge, but the experience of the CUSA/sun belt is instructive. Apparently a big reason ODU to the sun belt worked out so well is because the financial payout wasn’t worth what they were putting their athletes through travel-wise. The Sun Belt in its current rendition works really well because it cuts down on travel costs with the divisional format.

Money certainly talks at the top end (G4), but if you talk to a lot of schools who moved up in the last 15 years or so, it wasn’t about money, it was about status and looking for a new challenge. And if you go on the App State and maybe Georgia Southern boards now and asked them if they regret it, most fans wouldn’t (this is certain for App).

If the big 4 don’t move up now, then when?

The difference between these conferences outside of texas that are west of the mississippi and those in the southeast are that travel expenses are high and far no matter where they go, even with the status quo. So the value proposition isn’t the same as the sun belt schools. I would guess the big question for these dakota/montana institutions is financial, yes, but how to make lower travel time for non-revenue/olympic sports. I would imagine partial membership would be acceptable.

From the Mountain West perspective, I would add the big FCS teams, but also 1-2 teams that give you a media market. You want to go with a big 12 model IMO, where some schools bring something different to the table.

But I repeat myself: if you’re the big FCS 4 you have to ask yourself: if not now, then when?

[NY Crusader 2010]

I probably am a bit biased after a bad FBS experience, but is joining a weakened MWC better than the Big Sky or MVFC? The MWC’s tv revenue is going to be greatly reduced without the schools that are leaving for the PAC-12 and there would be increased costs to compete. With the expanded playoffs bowl games will become less a meaningful. I think FCS teams should wait until the Big 10 and SEC breakaway before contemplating a move.

I for one am glad to see that Idaho is seeing just how good it can be down here on the FCS side of the fence. Were you guys playing AP Top 10 teams close into the 4th quarter when you were FBS? Beating good MWC teams? Nope.

However, that being said, if the opportunity to jump back into a regional FBS alongside the likes of Wyoming, Utah State, New Mexico, Montana, Montana State and the Dakota schools came about? Take it and run with it.

[NY Crusader 2010]

I feel like with the Montana and Dakota schools, "market size" is really more of the entire state rather than just the "metro area" that they're contained in. Not that any of those states have a huge population, but they do have a fairly substantial following of people who will travel a lot further than most schools' fans and spend more money.

Portland is a bigger market than Fargo, but you have a lot more "die hard" fans willing to drive 2, 3, 4 hours every home game to watch NDSU than you do to see Portland State. I'd bet that if you totaled up the college football fans in the Portland metro area for each team, Portland State would probably be 4th or 5th most popular behind Oregon, Oregon State, Washington...maybe even Boise State. You do the same for Fargo and idk...the number of NDSU fans might be #2 behind Minnesota, but I doubt it.

The City of Portland has more die-hard pro women's soccer fans than it has people who even know what FCS football is. Market size doesn't mean much at all once you get past the top tier of college sports. Wagner is located in a much bigger market than South Dakota State. Does that mean they're a more attractive add for a G5 conference? Obviously not.

[RahRahRabbits]

Question for the fans in the Dakotas... would politics (Board of Regents/Board of Higher Ed) allow for the DSU to accept an FBS invite and not the U of? I don't know how that would play out in MT, but it seems fairly unanimous that both schools in MT would be lumped together anyway.

I don't believe either of the UxD's would have enough sway to hold back the xDSU's from making a move. NDSU/SDSU made the move together to division 1 in 2004, were both founding members of the now-defunct Great West Football Conference, and have certainly identified each other as peer institutions - both academically (land-grant, similar programs, etc) and support/interest in athletics. While SDSU was chasing NDSU on the football field for nearly a decade (and everyone else too for that matter), the administrations from both schools stayed closely tied.

I'm not sure how it was in North Dakota, but at the time SDSU was trying to move to D1, supporters from USD got the SD Board of Regents to put some pretty lofty requirements and targets on SDSU before they could make the jump. Four years later when they followed suit, I don't believe they had to meet those same goals.

At the time of moving to D1, there was also a very vocal contingent within the state that thought the move would be the downfall of the university - that we'd never keep up athletically, and academics/research/funding wouldn't catch up. While this would be a big jump (IF it ever did happen, which is still extremely unlikely in my view), I think the support of SD legislature/BOR would be easier to gain because they've seen success can be built given the opportunity.

[MSUBobcat]

The City of Portland has more die-hard pro women's soccer fans than it has people who even know what FCS football is. Market size doesn't mean much at all once you get past the top tier of college sports. Wagner is located in a much bigger market than South Dakota State. Does that mean they're a more attractive add for a G5 conference? Obviously not.

Market size is equal to the size of the market you bring, not the size of the market you reside in. UM, MSU and I suspect the Dakota school have large fan bases (eyeballs) outside the state lines, especially in the Twin Cities. The electrical engineering firm I work for was founded by a goddamn Jackrabbit alum and large donor to their engineering department (https://www.sdstatefoundation.org/stories/mccomishes-endow-first-department-at-sdsu) and we recruit from the school, so there's a larger SDSU contingency in Billings than I care for. UND hockey has a massive fanbase and usually outnumbers the opposing fans in their own arenas, depending on the school's ability to sell out its arena. Conversely, as JALMOND hilariously noted, PSU is the 87th most followed football program in its own city.

[MSUBobcat]

I don't believe either of the UxD's would have enough sway to hold back the xDSU's from making a move. NDSU/SDSU made the move together to division 1 in 2004, were both founding members of the now-defunct Great West Football Conference, and have certainly identified each other as peer institutions - both academically (land-grant, similar programs, etc) and support/interest in athletics. While SDSU was chasing NDSU on the football field for nearly a decade (and everyone else too for that matter), the administrations from both schools stayed closely tied.

I'm not sure how it was in North Dakota, but at the time SDSU was trying to move to D1, supporters from USD got the SD Board of Regents to put some pretty lofty requirements and targets on SDSU before they could make the jump. Four years later when they followed suit, I don't believe they had to meet those same goals.

At the time of moving to D1, there was also a very vocal contingent within the state that thought the move would be the downfall of the university - that we'd never keep up athletically, and academics/research/funding wouldn't catch up. While this would be a big jump (IF it ever did happen, which is still extremely unlikely in my view), I think the support of SD legislature/BOR would be easier to gain because they've seen success can be built given the opportunity.

This was kind of what I was referring to. I couldn't remember how difficult it was to make the jump alone, but I remember something about there being some hand wringing that the schools were leaving the in-state brother behind. In ND, I swear I remember NDSU fans saying the gubmint is preferential toward UND, since many politicians are alum of the law school at UND. I could also be completely full of **** and misremembering everything from 20 years ago xdrunkyx

[JALMOND]

Conversely, as JALMOND hilariously noted, PSU is the 87th most followed football program in its own city.

I might have exaggerated a bit. xlolx

I forgot to put BYU in there. BYU has a strong presence in Portland. Maybe move Utah below EWU and put BYU at 9th.

[MSUBobcat]

I might have exaggerated a bit. xlolx

I forgot to put BYU in there. BYU has a strong presence in Portland. Maybe move Utah below EWU and put BYU at 9th.

Poor Vikings.... moving down to 88th. xbawlingx

[taper]

Question for the fans in the Dakotas... would politics (Board of Regents/Board of Higher Ed) allow for the DSU to accept an FBS invite and not the U of? I don't know how that would play out in MT, but it seems fairly unanimous that both schools in MT would be lumped together anyway.
The ND State Board of Higher Ed does have final authority over the universities and can veto a move if they choose. Unfortunately there is a non-zero chance they'll do it.
Back when NDSU went D1, we asked UND to come with but they said no. They didn't object to our move because they were convinced we'd fail and come crawling back. That view won't happen this time.

[TheKingpin28]

If we can leave the little sisters of the poor behind, I'm all for it. Bringing SDSU and both Montana schools with instead, is the preferred option.

Sent from my SM-A546U1 using Tapatalk

[smilo]

I do get why the Pac-12's first choice for 7 and 8 and Tulane and Memphis, but I genuinely mean it when I say that NDSU and SDSU would bring in more value. Tulane has an advantage in baseball....and that's about all I can think of. (It would also be slightly painful to have two SDSU's in the same conference.)

As a fan of football, I would love watching Boise-NDSU and I would enjoy watching Tulane-East Carolina. But San Diego State-Tulane? I'm not tuning in for that nonsense. Those teams have nothing in common.

Don't even get me started on why Texas State and UTSA should not be options.

[NY Crusader 2010]

I do get why the Pac-12's first choice for 7 and 8 and Tulane and Memphis, but I genuinely mean it when I say that NDSU and SDSU would bring in more value. Tulane has an advantage in baseball....and that's about all I can think of. (It would also be slightly painful to have two SDSU's in the same conference.)

As a fan of football, I would love watching Boise-NDSU and I would enjoy watching Tulane-East Carolina. But San Diego State-Tulane? I'm not tuning in for that nonsense. Those teams have nothing in common.

Don't even get me started on why Texas State and UTSA should not be options.

I don't think the Dakotas will be considered for the new PAC 12 though Dakota and Montana schools + Idaho absolutely could/should get invited to the new Mountain West. I think the Pac will want to bring in UNLV (was shocked they weren't one of the 1st 4 invited) and I believe their next steps will be to try and go after AAC schools. They will for sure try to grab someone in Texas, UTSA or maybe SMU if the ACC splinters. Memphis, Tulane and South Florida could also be likely targets. I think the Pac will do what the "P3" leagues have done and look to add schools in at least 3 time zones. I definitely think they will look to stick a flag in both TX and FL for sure.

My guess is Air Force will leave a diluted MWC and join the also-somewhat diluted AAC in football -- perhaps they follow the Army/Navy model and play football in the AAC and play their other sports to a more local league like the Big Sky, Summit or the newer, weaker MWC.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

If the AAC loses Memphis and Tulane then Temple seriously needs to consider their options (none of the surface being good). While the administration, Owl alums/fans, greater Delaware Valley can find interest in Army, Navy, East Carolina, and to a lesser extent USF and Rice (academically driven affiliation) I don't believe that is enough to sustain Temple Athletics moving forward. Especially when you consider the continued erosion of the Temple basketball brand. Losing Cincinnati, Houston, Memphis (3 high profile programs Temple is historically as good or better than) has made an already rocky AAC relationship to one that is virtually devoid of equity. I feel like Temple Men's basketball is following a similar path as La Tech's Women's program. Just got shuffled down the line to the point of irrelevancy....

Temple's true hope (likely a mere fantasy) is to some how to end up in the ACC or an evolved version of it with the likes of Boston College, Syracuse, NC State, Wake Forest, Duke, Pitt, Georgia Tech, Virginia Tech, etc. Academically and athletically it would be a good fit. Plus, basketball would maintain a national platform. Somehow, some way basketball's ceiling must be preserved....

[NDSU1980]

I don't believe either of the UxD's would have enough sway to hold back the xDSU's from making a move. NDSU/SDSU made the move together to division 1 in 2004, were both founding members of the now-defunct Great West Football Conference, and have certainly identified each other as peer institutions - both academically (land-grant, similar programs, etc) and support/interest in athletics. While SDSU was chasing NDSU on the football field for nearly a decade (and everyone else too for that matter), the administrations from both schools stayed closely tied.

I'm not sure how it was in North Dakota, but at the time SDSU was trying to move to D1, supporters from USD got the SD Board of Regents to put some pretty lofty requirements and targets on SDSU before they could make the jump. Four years later when they followed suit, I don't believe they had to meet those same goals.

At the time of moving to D1, there was also a very vocal contingent within the state that thought the move would be the downfall of the university - that we'd never keep up athletically, and academics/research/funding wouldn't catch up. While this would be a big jump (IF it ever did happen, which is still extremely unlikely in my view), I think the support of SD legislature/BOR would be easier to gain because they've seen success can be built given the opportunity.

Well und refused to move up from D2 when NDSU did and they even ridiculed NDSU for several years over the issue along with refusing to play us. I'm sure now und will think Big Brother has to take them with or stay FCS

[NY Crusader 2010]

If the AAC loses Memphis and Tulane then Temple seriously needs to consider their options (none of the surface being good). While the administration, Owl alums/fans, greater Delaware Valley can find interest in Army, Navy, East Carolina, and to a lesser extent USF and Rice (academically driven affiliation) I don't believe that is enough to sustain Temple Athletics moving forward. Especially when you consider the continued erosion of the Temple basketball brand. Losing Cincinnati, Houston, Memphis (3 high profile programs Temple is historically as good or better than) has made an already rocky AAC relationship to one that is virtually devoid of equity. I feel like Temple Men's basketball is following a similar path as La Tech's Women's program. Just got shuffled down the line to the point of irrelevancy....

Temple's true hope (likely a mere fantasy) is to some how to end up in the ACC or an evolved version of it with the likes of Boston College, Syracuse, NC State, Wake Forest, Duke, Pitt, Georgia Tech, Virginia Tech, etc. Academically and athletically it would be a good fit. Plus, basketball would maintain a national platform. Somehow, some way basketball's ceiling must be preserved....

You could say the same about Old Dominion women's basketball as well.

[NY Crusader 2010]

If the AAC loses Memphis and Tulane then Temple seriously needs to consider their options (none of the surface being good). While the administration, Owl alums/fans, greater Delaware Valley can find interest in Army, Navy, East Carolina, and to a lesser extent USF and Rice (academically driven affiliation) I don't believe that is enough to sustain Temple Athletics moving forward. Especially when you consider the continued erosion of the Temple basketball brand. Losing Cincinnati, Houston, Memphis (3 high profile programs Temple is historically as good or better than) has made an already rocky AAC relationship to one that is virtually devoid of equity. I feel like Temple Men's basketball is following a similar path as La Tech's Women's program. Just got shuffled down the line to the point of irrelevancy....

Temple's true hope (likely a mere fantasy) is to some how to end up in the ACC or an evolved version of it with the likes of Boston College, Syracuse, NC State, Wake Forest, Duke, Pitt, Georgia Tech, Virginia Tech, etc. Academically and athletically it would be a good fit. Plus, basketball would maintain a national platform. Somehow, some way basketball's ceiling must be preserved....

Might not be too wild a fantasy. I actually predict that the ACC will splinter with the big, primarily football-driven public schools winding up in one of the "P3" leagues. I think you'll see Duke, Wake, Syracuse, Pitt, BC and maybe Georgia Tech at the core of a sort of "Magnolia League". Not that they'd fit academically with that group, but Temple and UConn would be good football adds there. And possibly Tulane and Rice would get on board. I also think that group could end up merging with the Big East (yes, seriously) for all other sports. Reason being that I think Duke, Syracuse and BC would find a lot more common ground with the Catholic basketball powers than the likes of Louisville, Virginia Tech and South Florida did.

[smilo]

I don't think the Dakotas will be considered for the new PAC 12 though Dakota and Montana schools + Idaho absolutely could/should get invited to the new Mountain West. I think the Pac will want to bring in UNLV (was shocked they weren't one of the 1st 4 invited) and I believe their next steps will be to try and go after AAC schools. They will for sure try to grab someone in Texas, UTSA or maybe SMU if the ACC splinters. Memphis, Tulane and South Florida could also be likely targets. I think the Pac will do what the "P3" leagues have done and look to add schools in at least 3 time zones. I definitely think they will look to stick a flag in both TX and FL for sure.

My guess is Air Force will leave a diluted MWC and join the also-somewhat diluted AAC in football -- perhaps they follow the Army/Navy model and play football in the AAC and play their other sports to a more local league like the Big Sky, Summit or the newer, weaker MWC.

I think UNLV will be team #9 in 2027. The Pac-12 doesn't want to pay the elevated exit fee from its scheduling agreement. They just need to find two other stop gaps until then. I fully expect them to grab AAC schools too (please, God, not USF), but I just don't think it is the right move when the Dakota State's have nearly equivalent national brands to Tulane and just barely smaller brands than Memphis (mostly due to basketball).

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Might not be too wild a fantasy. I actually predict that the ACC will splinter with the big, primarily football-driven public schools winding up in one of the "P3" leagues. I think you'll see Duke, Wake, Syracuse, Pitt, BC and maybe Georgia Tech at the core of a sort of "Magnolia League". Not that they'd fit academically with that group, but Temple and UConn would be good football adds there. And possibly Tulane and Rice would get on board. I also think that group could end up merging with the Big East (yes, seriously) for all other sports. Reason being that I think Duke, Syracuse and BC would find a lot more common ground with the Catholic basketball powers than the likes of Louisville, Virginia Tech and South Florida did.

Temple and UConn definitely align with NC State, Syracuse (Newhouse...and what?), and Virginia Tech academically. I won't deviate from that position xnodx. Pitt is right on the fringe and that bugs me as Pitt and Temple should be institutional twins (generally speaking) given how they are positioned within the Commonwealth System. I'll grant you the others are on a different level but as a group the floor would be high.

[Go...gate]

Just for kicks and giggles, outside of the Ivies there are 6 FCS schools that are included in top 120 endowments in the country. They better than most P4 schools. Not that that is the only requirement, and some may not be available for athletics, but it certainly helps. A couple were expected. A couple were surprises. Looking at the amounts, Holy Cross, Villanova, Abilene Christian, Furman and Hampton fell just short of the list. But they are all very comfortable financially. Howard wasn't even close.

In order:

Richmond
Georgetown
Lehigh
W&M (public)
Colgate
Davidson

I didn't realize Colgate's endowment was that high.
\

[Go...gate]

Is it a wild dream to see Air Force in the PAC-12?

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Is it a wild dream to see Air Force in the PAC-12?

Political forces will ensure Air Force is not left behind. I think the PAC-? is in play as is the AAC so long Army and Navy remain. The Falcons have easily been the most successful D1 service academy over the last 50 years or so. It's really not close...

[Go...gate]

Political forces will ensure Air Force is not left behind. I think the PAC-? is in play as is the AAC so long Army and Navy remain. The Falcons have easily been the most successful D1 service academy over the last 50 years or so. It's really not close...

Geography aside, they could play football in the AAC and belong to the Patriot League, as Annapolis and West Point do. It might make sense.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Geography aside, they could plat football in the AAC and belong to the Patriot League, as Annapolis and West Point do. It might make sense.

Perhaps, although the logistics would be tough for Patriot League schools imo. I think the WCC or MVC would be logical landing spots for everything but football. As I type this I can't help but wonder, does this open the door for Gonzaga to finally leave the WCC?

Watching the dominoes fall will again be fascinating as well as sobering as more history is erased/re-written....

[atthewbon]

SDSU, NDSU, Montana, and Montana St ending up in the MWC would be great in my opinion. Unfortunately sounds like MWC may look more towards schools like New Mexico St and UTEP. A lot could still change, there are so many possible scenarios for this to unfold.

[ST_Lawson]

I might have exaggerated a bit. xlolx

I forgot to put BYU in there. BYU has a strong presence in Portland. Maybe move Utah below EWU and put BYU at 9th.

Either way, other than the ~1,000 people that go to PSU home games, most people in Portland probably aren't even aware of their existence.



Perhaps, although the logistics would be tough for Patriot League schools imo. I think the WCC or MVC would be logical landing spots for everything but football. As I type this I can't help but wonder, does this open the door for Gonzaga to finally leave the WCC?

I agree that the Patriot League would be pretty tough for non-football sports...everyone else in a neat little clump on the upper east coast. That's a lot of cross-country travel for a team from Colorado. AF is already a WCC affiliate for men's water polo, so if they went the "football to the American" route, then WCC would make sense for most everything else. That's if they don't get an invite from the new PAC.

[JALMOND]

Either way, other than the ~1,000 people that go to PSU home games, most people in Portland probably aren't even aware of their existence.



I'm working on it. Its a slow process, however. :Dxthumbsupx

This weekend is going to be tough. We are in direct competition with the Ducks/Beavers game. I don't know how well South Dakota travels, but it won't be much to outdraw us. xembarrassedx

[Pards Rule]

I'm working on it. Its a slow process, however. :Dxthumbsupx

This weekend is going to be tough. We are in direct competition with the Ducks/Beavers game. I don't know how well South Dakota travels, but it won't be much to outdraw us. xembarrassedx

Loved Portland! I worked as a marketing/site development person for Mid Atlantic for Hanna Car Wash Systems and every third week in Sept Dan Hanna would have all the employees/distributors from around US and world (Australia, Japan!) into Milwaukie HQs and always the weather was wonderful. One time 35 years ago this month I took the week off after and drove out to Mt Hood and to Westport WA and then down the OR coast before staying in San Fran for 3 days and flying out of there. Great lovely trip. LOVED Otter Rock Inn. Was there the night Hurricane Hugo hit Charleston SC. Watched it on CBS special news broadcast.

[ST_Lawson]

I'm working on it. Its a slow process, however. :Dxthumbsupx

This weekend is going to be tough. We are in direct competition with the Ducks/Beavers game. I don't know how well South Dakota travels, but it won't be much to outdraw us. xembarrassedx

I get that...we averaged under 3k for our home games last year. We don't have as much competition, but we're also a small town in a very rural area.
South Dakota doesn't travel as well as NDSU or to a lesser extent, SDSU. There'll be a decent crowd, but I doubt they'll outdraw you. NDSU, on the other hand, most likely would. I think the last couple of times they played at our place, there were just as many (if not more) Bison fans as there were Leatherneck fans.

[kab]

Remember this would be for all sports, where does the revenue come from to pay for this.
i doubt the ND legislature would provide any money for this move .
i heard one west coast sports writer said the FBS teams left behind should drop down to FCS, that makes more sense

[SeattleCat]

Sac St is actively lobbying the Pac 12 and MWC for an invitation. Montana AD says there's been no discussion with either conference and Montana State's AD refuses to comment on any of it xeyebrowx

[MSUBobcat]

Remember this would be for all sports, where does the revenue come from to pay for this.
i doubt the ND legislature would provide any money for this move .
i heard one west coast sports writer said the FBS teams left behind should drop down to FCS, that makes more sense

Potential funding sources including, but not limited to: increased TV revenue (also for signage around the stadium/arena I would suspect - more eyeballs, more ad money), increased March Madness shares (MWC had 6 teams qualify in the last tournament, 4 of which are staying. Those 4 had a play-in win and a round-of-64 win, loses for the rest), higher paying OOC "money games", increased student fees (unpopular), increased ticket prices to some extent (can't squeeze fans too hard), increased donations. Travel costs for the MT schools probably only increase negligibly, since our conference already stretches from Southern Cal up the coast to Portland, Sacramento to Greeley, Cheney to Flagstaff, though there WOULD be new travel costs for the women's sport that would undoubtedly have to be added to offset the increase in FB scholarships. There is also the increase in coaching staff salaries that would come with being in a "higher tier" of competition. I'm not 100% on how scholarships are handled, but I suspect they are a non-cash transaction since adding a few extra students on scholarship wouldn't result in needing to hire any more professors, build new classrooms etc.

If the MAC teams aren't dropping down.... no way in hell the Mountain West teams are dropping down.

[uofmman1122]

Sac St is actively lobbying the Pac 12 and MWC for an invitation. Montana AD says there's been no discussion with either conference and Montana State's AD refuses to comment on any of it xeyebrowx
The conspiracy theorist in me might say that Sac is being so vocal because they haven't heard anything from either conference, whereas the Montana schools don't want to be too loud because they have (maybe from the MWC).

Although it could also be because the MT schools aren't as ready or interested in moving right now, who knows.

[BlueGoldAg]

The Pac-12 Conference is going to look completely different in two years and UC Davis might be part of those future plans. Athletic director Rocko DeLuca made a cryptic post on social media that set the college football world on fire.

Do the Aggies want to make the jump from FCS to FBS?

Whole article here: https://brobible.com/sports/article/uc-davis-pac-12-expansion-conference-football-stadium/

[JALMOND]

Those who think this does not matter to them, think again. Imagine the fallout on this site if the Montana schools as well as NDSU and SDSU move up. Will there even be an FCS football site anymore?

[jajfitz]

I think UNLV will be team #9 in 2027. The Pac-12 doesn't want to pay the elevated exit fee from its scheduling agreement. They just need to find two other stop gaps until then. I fully expect them to grab AAC schools too (please, God, not USF), but I just don't think it is the right move when the Dakota State's have nearly equivalent national brands to Tulane and just barely smaller brands than Memphis (mostly due to basketball).


IMHO If UNLV was to be invited, why weren't they part of the original announcement? I have also seen in several media articles that the state of Nevada would insist on UNLV and UNR going anywhere as a pair.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

NYCrusader,

I just saw a regular poster on the Temple suggested the University join the Patriot League if FBS is not sustainable moving forward. I was sane enough not to go down that road. While Boston U. is definitely a "similar" institution despite being private, that is where any practical parallel ends between Temple and the PL. While Temple has a long history with Army and Navy, those partnerships were built on geography, not ideology....

The "Should Temple Drop Football" thread is closing in on 200 posts....

[Reign of Terrier]

Never say never and always avoid saying always, but UC Davis to FBS just seems silly in 2024.

[SDFS]

Never say never and always avoid saying always, but UC Davis to FBS just seems silly in 2024.

How so, UC Davis - R-1, enrollment 40K, endowment over 2B, N. California School. It seems like they are the most likely school to go from FCS IMO. By the way, the AD posting the pic is basically saying I've got the backing. The only other FCS school with that backing is in Sacramento CA. City, local businesses say yes, school says not sure. Smart move by the school, now they have the city and local businesses saying what can I get you, what do you need? I can see both Sac St. and Davis going for it.

[ElCid]

Sac St is actively lobbying the Pac 12 and MWC for an invitation. Montana AD says there's been no discussion with either conference and Montana State's AD refuses to comment on any of it xeyebrowx

Which means that they are probably both talking to the powers that be all around.

[Reign of Terrier]

On field success, an attendance record north of 15k, those are two that come to mind. People laughed when Kennesaw and Coastal moved up, and sure they are fine and so would sacramento/UC davis, but KSU’s attendance is abysmal and it probably took a decade for Coastal’s to be respectable. The difference between ccu/ksu and the california schools is on field success. My fiance is from napa and i don’t get a huge regional backing of those schools, though it is an hour away

[ElCid]

How so, UC Davis - R-1, enrollment 40K, endowment over 2B, N. California School. It seems like they are the most likely school to go from FCS IMO. By the way, the AD posting the pic is basically saying I've got the backing. The only other FCS school with that backing is in Sacramento CA. City, local businesses say yes, school says not sure. Smart move by the school, now they have the city and local businesses saying what can I get you, what do you need? I can see both Sac St. and Davis going for it.

Unless they all of a sudden got a huge donation I don't they have that much of an endowment. I've just looked at a '22 list (and a 21) and they have nowhere close to $2B. Maybe the entire UC does, but not Davis. I think they are south of 800M. Which still isn't bad at all.

[KnightoftheRedFlash]

A lot of truth here. When the initial Pac-12 dissolved, Stanford and Cal thought they too were going to get left behind. The ACC was not too crazy about going national and those two schools were not too crazy about playing in an eastern conference, but it seemed both the California schools and the ACC reluctantly went with it in order to stay relevant. I don't know what it would take to get them back to the Pac-8(??) but I suspect both them and the ACC would not mind.

Cal and Stanford would go independent or disband sports before joining a conference with Boise and Fresno.

[KnightoftheRedFlash]

If the AAC loses Memphis and Tulane then Temple seriously needs to consider their options (none of the surface being good). While the administration, Owl alums/fans, greater Delaware Valley can find interest in Army, Navy, East Carolina, and to a lesser extent USF and Rice (academically driven affiliation) I don't believe that is enough to sustain Temple Athletics moving forward. Especially when you consider the continued erosion of the Temple basketball brand. Losing Cincinnati, Houston, Memphis (3 high profile programs Temple is historically as good or better than) has made an already rocky AAC relationship to one that is virtually devoid of equity. I feel like Temple Men's basketball is following a similar path as La Tech's Women's program. Just got shuffled down the line to the point of irrelevancy....

Temple's true hope (likely a mere fantasy) is to some how to end up in the ACC or an evolved version of it with the likes of Boston College, Syracuse, NC State, Wake Forest, Duke, Pitt, Georgia Tech, Virginia Tech, etc. Academically and athletically it would be a good fit. Plus, basketball would maintain a national platform. Somehow, some way basketball's ceiling must be preserved....

If Temple didn't treat football as negligible in the 1990s, they might have ended up in the ACC.

[JALMOND]

Cal and Stanford would go independent or disband sports before joining a conference with Boise and Fresno.

Speculation in Portland is that the Pac-12 knows that "something" is up with the ACC and their lawsuit that will free up Stanford and Cal to rejoin. That was why the conference could not announce the additions of those two at that time.

However, in the same breath, it was said that Stanford and Cal were the ones who would rebuff Boise's previous efforts to join the Pac-12 so you may be on to something there.

[BlueGoldAg]

Unless they all of a sudden got a huge donation I don't they have that much of an endowment. I've just looked at a '22 list (and a 21) and they have nowhere close to $2B. Maybe the entire UC does, but not Davis. I think they are south of 800M. Which still isn't bad at all.

UC Davis reported $2.2B in endowments as of May 31, 2021. https://www.ucdavis.edu/news/uc-davis-endowment-exceeds-2-billion

UC Davis also reported over $7.1B in total revenues for 2023-24. https://leadership.ucdavis.edu/news/state-campus-2024

[taper]

Remember this would be for all sports, where does the revenue come from to pay for this.
i doubt the ND legislature would provide any money for this move .
i heard one west coast sports writer said the FBS teams left behind should drop down to FCS, that makes more sense
You're right that I don't expect even a single extra penny from the ND legislature, but we would be ok as long as another Dakota comes as a travel partner. All 4 would be even better. Everything other than them and St Thomas is a flight anyway, so the travel costs wouldn't go up that much. Fargo is easier to get to than Laramie, WY or Hawaii. We can meet Title IX pretty cheap by adding tennis or promoting equestrian from their existing club status.
The extra media and NCAA credit revenue would cover most of it.

[ElCid]

UC Davis reported $2.2B in endowments as of May 31, 2021. https://www.ucdavis.edu/news/uc-davis-endowment-exceeds-2-billion

UC Davis also reported over $7.1B in total revenues for 2023-24. https://leadership.ucdavis.edu/news/state-campus-2024

Interesting. I was looking at a DOEd generated list. Leave to the government to get it wrong.

[SDFS]

Cal and Stanford would go independent or disband sports before joining a conference with Boise and Fresno.

Absolutely agree! And I think you could SDSU to that list.

[NDSU1980]

Those who think this does not matter to them, think again. Imagine the fallout on this site if the Montana schools as well as NDSU and SDSU move up. Will there even be an FCS football site anymore?
Do you think it's good for FCS if it keeps getting watered down with poor teams and the only teams playing for the title are always the Montana schools and the Dakota schools?

Rather than insisting the strongest schools not move up, maybe it's time to improve the bottom dwellers and make them competitive.

[Reign of Terrier]

Do you think it's good for FCS if it keeps getting watered down with poor teams and the only teams playing for the title are always the Montana schools and the Dakota schools?

Rather than insisted the strongest schools not move up, maybe it's time to improve the bottom dwellers and make them competitive.

hard disagree. I think this framing is wrong. The reason why FCS football interest sucks on this site is because NDSU for the most part has monopolized championships and interest. the lower 99% aren’t awful, the top 1-3% is just that good. When everyone does the same song and dance every year and knows how it will end (blowout in Fargo), it’s hard to get newbs excited. 2000-2010 FCS/1-AA was peak. The 4-peat for NDSU was cool. But when they hit 5 straight, it was clear something was broken in the subdivision.

And that’s not a criticism of anyone or any fanbase, I just remember 3-4 years ago hearing Montana State fans on twitter or here talk about/complain about the FCS not being relevant or trying to be and my thoughts are simply…..my man, programs are literally at this level as an institutional decision to provide more scholarships than d2 yet be less relevant than FBS. If you (not the poster i’m responding to, just the you general) want relevance, go somewhere else like FBS.

The worst thing that’s happened since the ascent of the Montanas and Dakotas is the devaluing of the FCS in general because they’re so dominant. I remember when the big point of debate of conference championships was who wins championships, now it’s who can get to semifinals to be curb stomped by a Montana/Dakota State. The other day I fought with a troll on reddit who seriously thought the Patriot league was better than the socon and that our best accomplishments were in 2002. The kernel of truth in that is that we really can’t appreciate individual team’s’ accomplishments when 2-3 of thr 4 semifinal spots are chalked every year. We FCS fans, to the extent they exist have such a broken sense of the value of our teams because the top 4ish teams have broken them.

JMU and SHSU and others moving up was good and it will be good when the NDSUs and SDSUs move up too. Herder wrote an article the other day about the subdivision being bored if things continue, but in his Fargo bubble he didn’t realize people have been bored for at least 5 years.

also i have a buzz so pardon the rant.

[Reign of Terrier]

Those who think this does not matter to them, think again. Imagine the fallout on this site if the Montana schools as well as NDSU and SDSU move up. Will there even be an FCS football site anymore?

Reddit and social media in general killed sites like these, along with the monopolization of success at this level. As i said in a previous post, this site probably peaked between 2004-2013 when there was optimal parity in the subdivision and social media hadn’t killed message boards.

[bonarae]

Pardon me if anyone missed out on this. I will miss UCD if they choose to go FBS. State of FCS in California is bad to begin with... xsighx

https://www.cbsnews.com/sacramento/video/uc-davis-athletic-director-feeds-pac-12-rumor-fire-with-post/

[Pards Rule]

So this doesnt take effect until 2026

[Daytripper]

the modern Mount Rushmore of FCS will have to be torn down and rebuilt..... goodbye Montana, Montana State, South Dakota State and North Dakota State
Unfortunately, this is the inevitable result of P2.2 cartel maneuverings. This PAC and MWC shakeup is likely the last opportunity for FCS programs who wish to go FBS to get there.
On a side note, our fan base and the university as a whole are much more engaged and pumped about FBS games. While the FCS playoffs are the gold standard for how playoffs should work, there is a lot more excitement about the regular season conference and OOC games.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Unfortunately, this is the inevitable result of P2.2 cartel maneuverings. This PAC and MWC shakeup is likely the last opportunity for FCS programs who wish to go FBS to get there.
On a side note, our fan base and the university as a whole are much more engaged and pumped about FBS games. While the FCS playoffs are the gold standard for how playoffs should work, there is a lot more excitement about the regular season conference and OOC games.

The Ivy League could really alter the FCS landscape if they would enter the playoffs. The names, their stadiums, the Northeast location, etc would shift the whole dynamic.

[ElCid]

Unfortunately, this is the inevitable result of P2.2 cartel maneuverings. This PAC and MWC shakeup is likely the last opportunity for FCS programs who wish to go FBS to get there.



I think people said it was the last time to move up last time. This time it probably will be. At least until next time.

[Reign of Terrier]

The Ivy League could really alter the FCS landscape if they would enter the playoffs. The names, their stadiums, the Northeast location, etc would shift the whole dynamic.

Very good take.

[KnightoftheRedFlash]

The Ivy League could really alter the FCS landscape if they would enter the playoffs. The names, their stadiums, the Northeast location, etc would shift the whole dynamic.

And the wider college football world and the nation would still yawn.

[uni88]

How so, UC Davis - R-1, enrollment 40K, endowment over 2B, N. California School. It seems like they are the most likely school to go from FCS IMO. By the way, the AD posting the pic is basically saying I've got the backing. The only other FCS school with that backing is in Sacramento CA. City, local businesses say yes, school says not sure. Smart move by the school, now they have the city and local businesses saying what can I get you, what do you need? I can see both Sac St. and Davis going for it.

How do UC Davis and Sac State compare to San Jose State?

I would expect the Pac to grab teams from the MWC and AAC and the MWC too consider FCS schools when looking for replacements.

[SDFS]

How do UC Davis and Sac State compare to San Jose State?

I would expect the Pac to grab teams from the MWC and AAC and the MWC too consider FCS schools when looking for replacements.

As far as academics, UC Davis has much higher profile than Fresno St, San Jose St, and Sac St.

UC Davis is (R1 - AAU school) in a peer group that includes the following AAU schools in CA that play football - Stanford*, UC Berkeley*, UCLA*, USC*, UC Davis*. Obviously the football programs are not comparable at this point. But, UC Davis has some deep pocket support. And it appears that they would be happy in the new Pac 12 or Mountain West. Most AD's are not saying much. He is posting potential stadium update renderings

The four Cal "State" schools are very comparable. The only reason I mention Sac St. was an interview that I read last year. It talked about the local Govt and business groups aligning to push for the school to move up to G5/6.

SDSU (R2 - Research $108m, USWR National - 151, Enrollment 36K, Endowment $400m, Academic Budget $550m)
Fresno St (R2 - Research $71m, USWR National - 250, Enrollment 25K, Endowment $250m, Academic Budget $400m)
SJSU (NA - Research $60m - USWR West Region - 16, Enrollment 37K, Endowment $200m, Academic Budget $510m)
Sac St (NA - Research $23m, USWR West Region - 38, Enrollment 31K, Endowment $80m, Academic Budget $500m)

Boise St (R2 - Research $46m, USWR National - 361-440, Enrollment 26K, Endowment $156m, Academic Budget $350m)

Compare those to Colorado St.
CSU (R1 - Research $447m, USWR National - 151, Enrollment 28K, Endowment $560m, Academic Budget $1.13b)

Here are UC Davis numbers
UC Davis (AAU R1 - Research $1b, USWR National - 28, Enrollment 41K, Endowment $2.2b, Academic Budget $7.1b)

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Those who think this does not matter to them, think again. Imagine the fallout on this site if the Montana schools as well as NDSU and SDSU move up. Will there even be an FCS football site anymore?

There will be.

[caribbeanhen]

Unfortunately, this is the inevitable result of P2.2 cartel maneuverings. This PAC and MWC shakeup is likely the last opportunity for FCS programs who wish to go FBS to get there.
On a side note, our fan base and the university as a whole are much more engaged and pumped about FBS games. While the FCS playoffs are the gold standard for how playoffs should work, there is a lot more excitement about the regular season conference and OOC games.

hey nice home win over Hawaii last night!

Sammy looked loaded, at least on the first drive anyway.

[Daytripper]

hey nice home win over Hawaii last night!

Sammy looked loaded, at least on the first drive anyway.
Thanks! We always have had some really good players. The difference now is that we have really good players 3-deep on the roster. Depth has always been what prevented FCS teams from finishing off FBS teams for an upset.
I think we have the talent and coaching to win the conference this year. There should be no reason that we don't go to a bowl game, at minimum.

[caribbeanhen]

Thanks! We always have had some really good players. The difference now is that we have really good players 3-deep on the roster. Depth has always been what prevented FCS teams from finishing off FBS teams for an upset.
I think we have the talent and coaching to win the conference this year. There should be no reason that we don't go to a bowl game, at minimum.

totally agree on winning the conference, but I didn’t want to mention it for Jynx reasons

[KnightoftheRedFlash]

totally agree on winning the conference, but I didn’t want to mention it for Jynx reasons

What does a Pokémon have to do with it?

[caribbeanhen]

What does a Pokémon have to do with it?

second hand emotions

[Pards Rule]

Thanks! We always have had some really good players. The difference now is that we have really good players 3-deep on the roster. Depth has always been what prevented FCS teams from finishing off FBS teams for an upset.
I think we have the talent and coaching to win the conference this year. There should be no reason that we don't go to a bowl game, at minimum.

We lost Keegan Shoemaker after ONE seasom to you folks..

[uni88]

As far as academics, UC Davis has much higher profile than Fresno St, San Jose St, and Sac St.

UC Davis is (R1 - AAU school) in a peer group that includes the following AAU schools in CA that play football - Stanford*, UC Berkeley*, UCLA*, USC*, UC Davis*. Obviously the football programs are not comparable at this point. But, UC Davis has some deep pocket support. And it appears that they would be happy in the new Pac 12 or Mountain West. Most AD's are not saying much. He is posting potential stadium update renderings

The four Cal "State" schools are very comparable. The only reason I mention Sac St. was an interview that I read last year. It talked about the local Govt and business groups aligning to push for the school to move up to G5/6.

SDSU (R2 - Research $108m, USWR National - 151, Enrollment 36K, Endowment $400m, Academic Budget $550m)
Fresno St (R2 - Research $71m, USWR National - 250, Enrollment 25K, Endowment $250m, Academic Budget $400m)
SJSU (NA - Research $60m - USWR West Region - 16, Enrollment 37K, Endowment $200m, Academic Budget $510m)
Sac St (NA - Research $23m, USWR West Region - 38, Enrollment 31K, Endowment $80m, Academic Budget $500m)

Boise St (R2 - Research $46m, USWR National - 361-440, Enrollment 26K, Endowment $156m, Academic Budget $350m)

Compare those to Colorado St.
CSU (R1 - Research $447m, USWR National - 151, Enrollment 28K, Endowment $560m, Academic Budget $1.13b)

Here are UC Davis numbers
UC Davis (AAU R1 - Research $1b, USWR National - 28, Enrollment 41K, Endowment $2.2b, Academic Budget $7.1b)

Academics, AAU membership and research $ matter to the B1G0 and the ACC, not the new PAC.

They've already picked the cream of the MWC crop. I think they'll focus on G5 schools that will make them the premiere G6 conference. FCS schools will have an opportunity to backfill for teams that move to the PAC not in the PAC itself.

[WestCoastAggie]

twitter.com/MattBrownEP/status/1835380697042723171 (https://www.anygivensaturday.com/twitter.com/MattBrownEP/status/1835380697042723171)

[ursus arctos horribilis]

twitter.com/MattBrownEP/status/1835380697042723171 (https://www.anygivensaturday.com/twitter.com/MattBrownEP/status/1835380697042723171)

Linky no worky.

[abc123]

In ND, I swear I remember NDSU fans saying the gubmint is preferential toward UND, since many politicians are alum of the law school at UND. I could also be completely full of **** and misremembering everything from 20 years ago xdrunkyx
Fans say a lot of things, even when none of it is based in truth. I haven't seen updated numbers over the last few years which has caused some turnover, but a few years back around 25% of the legislature had ties to UND, around 25% to NDSU and about 50% to neither school (those were just visible ties as alumni, employment or donors, so they are probably off a bit). There is a lot of power in western ND where there is no allegiance to either school.


Back when NDSU went D1, we asked UND to come with but they said no. They didn't object to our move because they were convinced we'd fail and come crawling back. That view won't happen this time.
UND didn't have its financial house in order to make a move at that time. And probably fair to argue that they still hadn't cleaned things up enough when they did eventually move but their hand was pushed. It explains part of the reason they struggled out of the gate (along with directly competing with the XDSU's who had a head-start and made very good use of it). Since then, they have significantly cleaned up their finances, cut some significant dead weight at both the university and athletic levels and are in one of the best spots they have been in a long time. Enrollment growth and retention are also at levels that are complete opposites of national trends. Leadership of both the AD and University was previously not in a great spot, however now I would put both, particularly at the top of the University, at a very, very good spot.

Looks like NDSU finally may have stopped the bleeding on their declining enrollment trend, but University-wide finances haven't been in a good spot (needed an extra $5 million allocation from the legislature last year just to cover their budget) and I'm not sure they have fixed that issue yet. Their budget on the athletics side has been mostly unaffected thus far, however some of the commentary coming out of Fargo (including from the retired president) is there isn't much room to increase what is already premium pricing for football. I don't agree with that completely and it definitely doesn't mean some donors wouldn't come up with extra cash for this move, but unless they do some significant changes to the Fargodome (which the upcoming vote on renovations won't do enough of), they will have to come up with additional ways to sustain an increased budget. For example, they did put up an incredibly nice IPF with private donations, however that doesn't necessarily equate to sustained cash flow. There's allegedly a fair amount of money on the sidelines that would show up if they moved FBS, but history shows that at least a portion of that will be people who will find another reason not to pony up more cash when the time comes.

[RahRahRabbits]

twitter.com/MattBrownEP/status/1835380697042723171 (https://www.anygivensaturday.com/twitter.com/MattBrownEP/status/1835380697042723171)


Linky no worky.

Matt Brown on Xwitter.
(https://x.com/MattBrownEP/status/1835380697042723171)
"Potential realignment storyline to monitor this week

will leaders in the Big Ten/SEC/other major leagues try to uh, "encourage" leadership in the MWC/Pac12 to *not* take any FCS programs? Is this already happening?"

[jajfitz]

A friend had an idea so bizarre it might work. Hawai'i and SJSU drop to FCS then form a new league with UC-Davis, CSU-Sac, CPSLO, EWashington, and Portland State. Add in NAU to get to eight.

[Bisonator]

Matt Brown on Xwitter.
(https://x.com/MattBrownEP/status/1835380697042723171)
"Potential realignment storyline to monitor this week

will leaders in the Big Ten/SEC/other major leagues try to uh, "encourage" leadership in the MWC/Pac12 to *not* take any FCS programs? Is this already happening?"
If there is any proof of that happening I would hope a federal lawsuit is in the works.

[Go Green]

Matt Brown on Xwitter.
(https://x.com/MattBrownEP/status/1835380697042723171)
"Potential realignment storyline to monitor this week

will leaders in the Big Ten/SEC/other major leagues try to uh, "encourage" leadership in the MWC/Pac12 to *not* take any FCS programs? Is this already happening?"

Why would the Pac-12 or MWC give a damn what the major conferences want them to do?

[Pards Rule]

Why would the Pac-12 or MWC give a damn what the major conferences want them to do?

Exactly! BTW read this AM that AAC trying to lure Air Force

[Professor Chaos]

Why would the Pac-12 or MWC give a damn what the major conferences want them to do?
Because the Big Ten and SEC have all the leverage when it comes to who gets a seat at the big table and who gets (or doesn't get) the scraps that fall off the big table. Just look at the House settlement for instance - the big boys pretty much said to the little guys "you're going to pay 60% of this settlement money that the schools owe even though it's going mostly to former athletes from our schools and we pocketed that money in the past".

You piss off the Big Ten and the SEC and all of a sudden no one outside of the P4 gets an automatic CFP bid and/or they change how CFP revenue is distributed outside of the P4. But like Bisonator alluded to this would be a clear anti-trust violation if any of the smaller conferences had the guts to fight it.

[KnightoftheRedFlash]

Because the Big Ten and SEC have all the leverage when it comes to who gets a seat at the big table and who gets (or doesn't get) the scraps that fall off the big table. Just look at the House settlement for instance - the big boys pretty much said to the little guys "you're going to pay 60% of this settlement money that the schools owe even though it's going mostly to former athletes from our schools".

You piss off the Big Ten and the SEC and all of a sudden no one outside of the P4 gets an automatic CFB bid and/or they change how CFB revenue is distributed. But like Bisonator alluded to this would be a clear anti-trust violation if any of the smaller conferences had the guts to fight it.

The leadership at those schools want Big Ten and SEC gigs. They aren't fighting it.

[Go Green]

The leadership at those schools want Big Ten and SEC gigs. They aren't fighting it.

If so, that's a serious breach of fiduciary duties on the part of the Pac-12 and MWC leadership...

[jacksfan29!]

AFA will go to the AAC. They have been talking about doing it for years, back to the time the AAC was still the Big East. Having Air Force in the AAC will be good for all three schools. The reality is none can take advantage of NIL or the transfer portal, none are going P4, they can't compete at that level. Being together will allow all three to stay relevant. On the field? Army is back, Monken has rebuilt that program. They are going to be a tough out in the AAC this year. Air Force is down, really down, they bet the farm on a group of Covid 5th years last season. Navy is ok, but Army, if they get rolling on the ground, you are not stopping them.

[SeattleCat]

After some comments from Montana State's Coach Brent Vigen, he makes it sound like Montana State is being "aggressive" with "the things it can control" in this situation. I'm guessing if Montana State gets an invite we're gone.

[Pards Rule]

AFA will go to the AAC. They have been talking about doing it for years, back to the time the AAC was still the Big East. Having Air Force in the AAC will be good for all three schools. The reality is none can take advantage of NIL or the transfer portal, none are going P4, they can't compete at that level. Being together will allow all three to stay relevant. On the field? Army is back, Monken has rebuilt that program. They are going to be a tough out in the AAC this year. Air Force is down, really down, they bet the farm on a group of Covid 5th years last season. Navy is ok, but Army, if they get rolling on the ground, you are not stopping them.

Monckens Asst HC is longtime Lafayette DC John Loose! Even though my uncle was a chem professor and coached the sailing team in Annapolis I have to root for Army now because of Loose.

[Reign of Terrier]

Navy’s OC was Mercer’s HC last year, Drew Cronic

[caribbeanhen]

Monckens Asst HC is longtime Lafayette DC John Loose! Even though my uncle was a chem professor and coached the sailing team in Annapolis I have to root for Army now because of Loose.

saw a Bear on a high lite play from New London, never ever saw that before

[Pards Rule]

saw a Bear on a high lite play from New London, never ever saw that before


LOVE

[JacksFan40]

Ross Dellenger on X reporting that Memphis, Tulane, and USF are declining a PAC-12 invite and remaining in the AAC. They might be holding out for future ACC or Big 12 invites. Expect the PAC-12 to pivot back to raiding the MWC as well as going after other AAC members like UTSA and Rice.

Might not be much of a MWC left in the end for any FCS schools to join.

[nodak651]

Pac is spending a lot of money now to ditch what will be only a few MWC schools. Without Memphis and Tulane on board and no TV contract, how likely is it that they revert back to looking at a full merger? Hawaii have any rights whatsover as an affiliate or fb only member that doesnt participate in the TV contract?

[UNHWildcat18]

Pac is spending a lot of money now to ditch what will be only a few MWC schools. Without Memphis and Tulane on board and no TV contract, how likely is it that they revert back to looking at a full merger? Hawaii have any rights whatsover as an affiliate or fb only member that doesnt participate in the TV contract?

That’s what they should have done in the first place. Merge with MW, keep all that PAC money, get a better tv deal for MW and try to get an autobid.

[Libertine]

...

Might not be much of a MWC left in the end for any FCS schools to join.

All schools are welcome in the Conference-USA!!!

[JALMOND]

Rumor about Gonzaga joining the Pac-12 in basketball only has been shot down, for now.

https://www.al.com/sports/2024/09/gonzaga-ad-shoots-down-report-linking-school-to-pac-12-that-is-not-accurate-reporting.html

Talks are that if they join, Gonzaga would have full conference revenue sharing despite no football team.

[smilo]

That’s what they should have done in the first place. Merge with MW, keep all that PAC money, get a better tv deal for MW and try to get an autobid.

Getting away from New Mexico seems to be the benefit? And they still think they can get Calford if they stay away from San Jose State?

Hawaii also hasn't been competitive and lacks a serious stadium though might be better as an independent. Wyoming, good program, but will always be a net Taker under average payouts sadly, so they have to be out too.

Those are the three big anchors, plus Wyoming. You feel for New Mexico basketball though, but at least they'll have Nevada - until Nevada gets the call...

[JimKLU72]

To confirm a previous positive comment on Army earlier in this discussion; I saw The Black Knights this year in action in person. We (Lehigh) had our FCS pay day opening night at West Point. The Army offensive line is massive. As well as mobile, agile, and hostile. All things considered, I'm thrilled we held them under fifty.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

To confirm a previous positive comment on Army earlier in this discussion; I saw The Black Knights this year in action in person. We (Lehigh) had our FCS pay day opening night at West Point. The Army offensive line is massive. As well as mobile, agile, and hostile. All things considered, I'm thrilled we held them under fifty.

Army at Temple Thursday night, game is on ESPN. I'm very interested to see how my Owls fare given how dominant the Black Knights have been to start the year. Temple actually looked respectable in beating up a down and out Utah State team on Saturday.

I thought Lehigh's effort against Army was commendable at the time and now reflecting back, was a signal of things to come. I'm interested to see if Lehigh has a FBS opponent next year. If they stay healthy/in one piece (relatively speaking) I think Lehigh will have the horses to give a middling to poor MAC, AAC or CUSA team a run for their money.

[Professor Chaos]

What a day for the MWC and the PAC - first the PAC's AAC targets turn them down, then the PAC turns back to the MWC, the MWC scrambles to try to get everyone on board with staying put and getting a grant-of-rights put in place to ensure future stability, most of the remaining 8 MWC schools seem to be on board including Air Force and UNLV but Utah St breaks rank and decides to go to the PAC, now UNLV is allegedly "re-evaluating their options" now that the MWC is down to 7 and considering joining Utah St in the PAC.

This post will be probably be out-dated in about 5 minutes...

[Reign of Terrier]

Every mountain west team that leaves increases the probability of the ascendency of the dakota states and montanas.

edit: it actually makes even more senses now with wyoming and AFA being geographic outliers if they try to go for california schools.

[JacksFan40]

What a day for the MWC and the PAC - first the PAC's AAC targets turn them down, then the PAC turns back to the MWC, the MWC scrambles to try to get everyone on board with staying put and getting a grant-of-rights put in place to ensure future stability, most of the remaining 8 MWC schools seem to be on board including Air Force and UNLV but Utah St breaks rank and decides to go to the PAC, now UNLV is allegedly "re-evaluating their options" now that the MWC is down to 7 and considering joining Utah St in the PAC.

This post will be probably be out-dated in about 5 minutes...
Apparently the PAC-12 low-balled Memphis during negotiations and that caused Memphis to decline, which led to the other AAC targets declining as well. Maybe another push is made for the AAC teams. Texas State is also being floated as an option.

[Libertine]

Utah State is joining the PAC-12*. UNLV is thinking it over.

*(Actual number of PAC schools TBD.)

https://www.espn.com/college-sports/story/_/id/41406647/sources-utah-st-set-become-7th-member-rebuilding-pac-12

https://www.espn.com/college-sports/story/_/id/41406047/unlv-exploring-options-utah-state-joins-pac-12

[nodak651]

Anyone know if Hawaii has full membership rights? Can they be booted if desired? Single sport member that hasnt participated in tv deal. Gotta think they dont. Can anyone confirm?

[bonarae]

UNLV, Air Force and SJSU staying in the MWC.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10136544-report-air-force-unlv-san-jose-to-commit-to-mountain-west-amid-realignment-rumors

[Go...gate]

So much for Air Force to the Patriot League for non-Football sports.

[Professor Chaos]

UNLV, Air Force and SJSU staying in the MWC.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10136544-report-air-force-unlv-san-jose-to-commit-to-mountain-west-amid-realignment-rumors
Yeah, that's already dated. Apparently, for at least UNLV and Air Force that commitment was contingent on all 8 remaining MWC schools staying on board but when Utah St jumped ship it meant those "commitments" were made null and void.

This seems to imply that if UNLV decides to go the PAC then Air Force will leave for the AAC:
https://twitter.com/PeteThamel/status/1838388083693105323

[Go Green]

That’s what they should have done in the first place. Merge with MW, keep all that PAC money, get a better tv deal for MW and try to get an autobid.

I read somewhere that some of the top MWC schools were very unhappy that the traditional bottom feeders in the MWC were not making enough investments into their athletic programs and wanted to be rid of them...

[caribbeanhen]

Army at Temple Thursday night, game is on ESPN. I'm very interested to see how my Owls fare given how dominant the Black Knights have been to start the year. Temple actually looked respectable in beating up a down and out Utah State team on Saturday.

I thought Lehigh's effort against Army was commendable at the time and now reflecting back, was a signal of things to come. I'm interested to see if Lehigh has a FBS opponent next year. If they stay healthy/in one piece (relatively speaking) I think Lehigh will have the horses to give a middling to poor MAC, AAC or CUSA team a run for their money.

Easy ready willing not in overtime, Temple will be saying where does Army draw the line....

Army will crush Hall and Oates Temple

[DFW HOYA]

UNLV, Air Force and SJSU staying in the MWC.

Not so fast...

"UNLV was set to remain in the Mountain West after a brief flirtation with the Pac-12 earlier Monday, according to multiple sources. UNLV’s commitment to the league, however, was based on eight teams remaining in the conference."

https://www.reviewjournal.com/sports/unlv/unlv-football/4-aac-schools-staying-put-will-pac-12-now-turn-to-unlv-3175188

[Laker]

Is Utah State actually making an official announcement yet? And if it does, things aren't going to stay 7 and 7 for both conferences.

[ElCid]

Hilarious reading this thread.

Who's on first. What's on second.

[smilo]

Is Utah State actually making an official announcement yet? And if it does, things aren't going to stay 7 and 7 for both conferences.

Correct, the official acceptance came out just after midnight eastern.

Texas State may be the last FBS resort for Pac-12 if UNLV and Air Force spurn the Pac-12. Low exit fee, big media payout increase.

Air Force might be leaning AAC again, so likely need 2 if not 4-6 for the MW

[smilo]

Although I'm now seeing speculation that if the Pac-12 expands to 10 by taking 3 additional MW schools and Air Force wants out as well, they can vote to dissolve the conference, leaving Hawaii and two suckers (UNM and Wyoming?) out in the cold without paying any exit fees.

I don't know how that would be possible. Didn't they just sue so that the other 10 Pac-12 schools could not vote to dissolve the conference after leaving in waves? Seems cruel and doesn't actually make a materially stronger conference.

[MSUBobcat]

Hilarious reading this thread.

Who's on first. What's on second.

Last couple pages really got.... SQUIRREL!

[JALMOND]

What comes around goes around. Does anyone remember how the Mountain West was formed? This whole thing isn't anything new. It's been going on for awhile.

[RahRahRabbits]

Although I'm not seeing speculation that if the Pac-12 expands to 10 by taking 3 additional MW schools and Air Force wants out as well, they can vote to dissolve the conference, leaving Hawaii and two suckers (UNM and Wyoming?) out in the cold without paying any exit fees.

I don't know how that would be possible. Didn't they just sue so that the other 10 Pac-12 schools could not vote to dissolve the conference after leaving in waves? Seems cruel and doesn't actually make a materially stronger conference.

Would MW fight back like the Pac-2 did? How much funding would they even have at that point? It's all crazy.


What comes around goes around. Does anyone remember how the Mountain West was formed? This whole thing isn't anything new. It's been going on for awhile.

Very true - good point. It's going to be interesting.

[MSUBobcat]

Would MW fight back like the Pac-2 did? How much funding would they even have at that point? It's all crazy.



Very true - good point. It's going to be interesting.

If they're already bound to the buyout terms from the first teams they poached, which I would assume they are since it occurred before a potential vote to disband.... a LOT.

[Professor Chaos]

Would MW fight back like the Pac-2 did? How much funding would they even have at that point? It's all crazy.

Well, if 8 schools left the MWC that would give them $100M+ in exit fees I believe (something like $17M per school that is leaving). That would give them the funds to attempt a rebuild at comparable but somewhat smaller scale than the PAC. The MWC also has a pretty good allocation of NCAA tournament units coming over the next few years given the success of San Diego St and other current and former MWC teams in the NCAA men's basketball tourney lately. They'll have some cash to play with.

[Reign of Terrier]

Unironically, the Mountain 2(?) is what certain folks in the UAC and the big 4 have waited for: an excuse to move up and the resources (assuming buy out cash) to make it more seamless.

Wasn't "moving up to the FBS as a conference" the explicit point of the UAC before cruel reality smacked them in the face?

[MSUBobcat]

Well, if 8 schools left the MWC that would give them $100M+ in exit fees I believe (something like $17M per school that is leaving). That would give them the funds to attempt a rebuild at comparable but somewhat smaller scale than the PAC. The MWC also has a pretty good allocation of NCAA tournament units coming over the next few years given the success of San Diego St and other current and former MWC teams in the NCAA men's basketball tourney lately. They'll have some cash to play with.

Let the legal battles begin!!! xslapfightx

​https://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/pac-12-sues-mountain-west-over-poaching-penalty-as-conferences-battle-during-latest-round-of-realignment/

[RahRahRabbits]

Let the legal battles begin!!! xslapfightx

​https://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/pac-12-sues-mountain-west-over-poaching-penalty-as-conferences-battle-during-latest-round-of-realignment/

Interesting line out of this story: "Historically in the realignment era when exit fees are contended by one party, the two sides settle for approximately 65%." That could have some sizable impact.

[Libertine]

What comes around goes around. Does anyone remember how the Mountain West was formed? This whole thing isn't anything new. It's been going on for awhile.

EXACTLY!!! And also Exhibit A as to why the P4 mega-conferences are ultimately doomed to eventually splinter and start this process all over again.

"What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun."

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The dirty little secret that everyone is forgetting: Four schools in all of FCS, NDSU, SDSU, MSU, and Montana, make money with an FCS playoff run. It is not a straightforward decision for them to shovel money into the Mountain West and lose money hand over first there, triply so with the $2 million Delaware tax added on top. If anything Wyoming has to be thinking about going the same direction Idaho did... where the Vandals are proving to be a great success.

[Professor Chaos]

The dirty little secret that everyone is forgetting: Four schools in all of FCS, NDSU, SDSU, MSU, and Montana, make money with an FCS playoff run. It is not a straightforward decision for them to shovel money into the Mountain West and lose money hand over first there, triply so with the $2 million Delaware tax added on top. If anything Wyoming has to be thinking about going the same direction Idaho did... where the Vandals are proving to be a great success.
Can't speak for the other 3 but I can tell you without a doubt that NDSU football is withering on the vine right now. Fan interest is as low as it's been in the last 14 years. The price of the unprecedented success NDSU had is that there's nowhere to go but down. I'm convinced that the only way NDSU football can grow at this point is in the FBS (or at least in the G6 level if the FBS splits). The alternative is a slow or not-so-slow decline of the program.

If schools like Sam Houston and Kennesaw can do it those 4 definitely can.

[Reign of Terrier]

The dirty little secret that everyone is forgetting: Four schools in all of FCS, NDSU, SDSU, MSU, and Montana, make money with an FCS playoff run. It is not a straightforward decision for them to shovel money into the Mountain West and lose money hand over first there, triply so with the $2 million Delaware tax added on top. If anything Wyoming has to be thinking about going the same direction Idaho did... where the Vandals are proving to be a great success.

The problem with this is that when you’re at the FBS level, no matter the level, you’re operating at an order of scale relative to FCS. You’ll get 2x the pay day for your OOC games at minimum. I have said this elsewhere, but a lot of the obstacles to moving up for these teams seem not very big. Universities have business offices, alumni outreach, development offices, and fundraisers for a reason. Being able to figure this stuff out is literally what they’re paid for. And once you get to a higher level, often times the baseline expenses are endowed. I don’t think any D1 program has its basic expenses financially dependent on attendance. No one is cutting it that close, and if they are, it’s fireable administration.


Can't speak for the other 3 but I can tell you without a doubt that NDSU football is withering on the vine right now. Fan interest is as low as it's been in the last 14 years. The price of the unprecedented success NDSU had is that there's nowhere to go but down. I'm convinced that the only way NDSU football can grow at this point is in the FBS (or at least in the G6 level if the FBS splits). The alternative is a slow or not-so-slow decline of the program.

If schools like Sam Houston and Kennesaw can do it those 4 definitely can.

Winning big and having high status are drugs and the withdrawals are awful. And when you get back to winning championships after a brief absence, it doesn’t feel the same, because it doesn’t hit the same way. Not when there’s even higher status or other ways to win big.

I get flamed (slight overstatement) for saying the FCS playoffs are kind of silly when you think about it (looking for high status on strategically low status programs)and it’s no coincidence that the fans who most agree are of teams that are pretty much never in the championship conversation (and are at peace wirh it + what this subdivision is) and the ones who most vehemently disagree have either won a championship in the reagan administration or have Dakota/Montana in their title. Some people don’t know they’re chasing that high still.

NDSU is in the weirdest position of any team though. Georgia Southern won 6 championships in like 15 years. The Bizon won 6 straight, and like 9 of 10 or whatever. It’s a great experiment in the hedonic treadmill. People can get tired of winning!

[MSUBobcat]

The dirty little secret that everyone is forgetting: Four schools in all of FCS, NDSU, SDSU, MSU, and Montana, make money with an FCS playoff run. It is not a straightforward decision for them to shovel money into the Mountain West and lose money hand over first there, triply so with the $2 million Delaware tax added on top. If anything Wyoming has to be thinking about going the same direction Idaho did... where the Vandals are proving to be a great success.

With the NC$$ taking 75% of the gate, it's not as lucrative as you might think, even selling out playoff games.

[Sitting Bull]

With the NC$$ taking 75% of the gate, it's not as lucrative as you might think, even selling out playoff games.

So we’re debating how much money. Do any of the G5 teams make any money in postseason, outside the lucky lottery winner who gets to be the playoff punching bag? It’s tough to see how when you get 10,000 or less to any of the minor bowl games that make up the G5 postseason.

[Sitting Bull]

Can't speak for the other 3 but I can tell you without a doubt that NDSU football is withering on the vine right now. Fan interest is as low as it's been in the last 14 years. The price of the unprecedented success NDSU had is that there's nowhere to go but down. I'm convinced that the only way NDSU football can grow at this point is in the FBS (or at least in the G6 level if the FBS splits). The alternative is a slow or not-so-slow decline of the program.

If schools like Sam Houston and Kennesaw can do it those 4 definitely can.

ND State announced 17,000+ for last weeks game vs Towson. Given that’s virtually a full house, how is that “withering”?

[MR. CHICKEN]

...AFTER TWO HOMERS.......DELAWARE RANKS 7th NATIONALLY.....IN ATTENDANCE.......17,546 AVG....BRAWK!

[Reign of Terrier]

So we’re debating how much money. Do any of the G5 teams make any money in postseason, outside the lucky lottery winner who gets to be the playoff punching bag? It’s tough to see how when you get 10,000 or less to any of the minor bowl games that make up the G5 postseason.

Bowl games have payouts in the millions. Some as low as the hundred thousands. But if you play a big boy in a bowl game, you can make big bank. The best one i can see from last year for g5 is bowling green getting $2m to play minnesota. JMU got 1.2m for the armed forces bowl.

Given that FCS teams can really only expect one big pay day per year, 2 if they’re feeling loose, to the tune of like 300-400k, and then on top of that you get 2-3x that to play power 5 opponents, the scale of financial payout for just being bowl worthy is easily on a low end 2-3x the revenue as FCS. That’s not including media deals, which are almost certainly orders of magnitudes better for the g5 than FCS.

Sure there’s other inflation on stuff like coaching salaries and travel, but it almost certainly breaks even or better if you a good travel partner. The fixed costs of facilities and the 20 extra scholarships aren’t that big relative to the revenue growth.

edit: Liberty got at least $4m for making the fiesta bowl.



ND State announced 17,000+ for last weeks game vs Towson. Given that’s virtually a full house, how is that “withering”?

Randomly googling their attendance in 2015 and it was 18,500. That’s 10% better. Opens the question: will attendance go up if NDSU starts losing? I don’t think so. Alternatively, keeping on winning at this level could instill boredom. The rest of the FCS was bored with this 5-7 years ago and NDSU is finally catching up

[POD Knows]

ND State announced 17,000+ for last weeks game vs Towson. Given that’s virtually a full house, how is that “withering”?No way there was 17K in that building, that has to include all sold season tickets and GA, lots and lots of empty season ticket holder seats and there are every week now. It was also homecoming and not a sell out, there is absolutely apathy and it is getting worse. I thought that this year would rebound a little with the new coaching staff but it doesn't really seem like that is driving increase fan support.

[MSUBobcat]

Bowl games have payouts in the millions. Some as low as the hundred thousands. But if you play a big boy in a bowl game, you can make big bank. The best one i can see from last year for g5 is bowling green getting $2m to play minnesota. JMU got 1.2m for the armed forces bowl.

Given that FCS teams can really only expect one big pay day per year, 2 if they’re feeling loose, to the tune of like 300-400k, and then on top of that you get 2-3x that to play power 5 opponents, the scale of financial payout for just being bowl worthy is easily on a low end 2-3x the revenue as FCS. That’s not including media deals, which are almost certainly orders of magnitudes better for the g5 than FCS.

Sure there’s other inflation on stuff like coaching salaries and travel, but it almost certainly breaks even or better if you a good travel partner. The fixed costs of facilities and the 20 extra scholarships aren’t that big relative to the revenue growth.

edit: Liberty got at least $4m for making the fiesta bowl.


Beat me to it. MWC played in the New Mexico Bowl ($1.05M), L.A. Bowl Hosted by Gronk xlolx (Unannounced), Famous Idaho Potato Bowl ($800k), Hawaii Bowl ($1.2M) and the Arizona Bowl ($350k).

As I've said before, the travel costs for MSU and UM to join the MWC would only increase negligibly since we are already stretched from San Luis Obispo to Portland to Greeley, CO to Flagstaff and all points between. Other than the Brawl, which would come with if both moved up, both teams have 2, maybe 3 schools that are bus distance. Coach salaries would have to be elevated to G5 (6) levels, which could presumably be offset by better media deals, bowl game $$, increased March Madness money (we are a 1-bid, early exit league), presumably increased enrollment from increased national exposure. I assume the increase in scholarships is a paper transaction only, until someone tells otherwise. Adding 20 scholarships (40 to comply with Title IX?) doesn't result in hiring any more profs, buying more desks, etc. If room and board is provided, the school is out the cost of the food and the lost housing revenue that would have been made from a paying student (Best meal plan in a double room is $6,295 for this academic year, $252k total, though even this is somewhat overstated because the school is only out the cost of the food, not the additional profit margin however immaterial it may be).

[Reign of Terrier]

As I've said before, the travel costs for MSU and UM to join the MWC would only increase negligibly since we are already stretched from San Luis Obispo to Portland to Greeley, CO to Flagstaff and all points between. Other than the Brawl, which would come with if both moved up, both teams have 2, maybe 3 schools that are bus distance.

I can understand the Dakota States being a little wary because it is true that their current setup *is* better in terms of travel, with 2 other Dakota teams, and Northern Iowa and a couple others being within bus distance, on top of the numerous sacrificial lambs they bring in for home games.

But if you’re Montana or Montana State…um… big old jet airliner, don’t carry me too far away. It’s all a wash.

[Chalupa Batman]

ND State announced 17,000+ for last weeks game vs Towson. Given that’s virtually a full house, how is that “withering”?

It was also Homecoming. Last year, on Homecoming attendance was 18,342 and outside of that our highest attendance was barely over 15k. We did have 16,800 for the Tennessee State game so maybe attendance is ticking back up but who knows. Then again we host both UND & SDSU this year and neither game is sold out yet.

Our last 4 home playoff games attendance has been 12.9k, 11.8k, 12.4k, & 7800.

[Sitting Bull]

It was also Homecoming. Last year, on Homecoming attendance was 18,342 and outside of that our highest attendance was barely over 15k. We did have 16,800 for the Tennessee State game so maybe attendance is ticking back up but who knows. Then again we host both UND & SDSU this year and neither game is sold out yet.

Our last 4 home playoff games attendance has been 12.9k, 11.8k, 12.4k, & 7800.

Those numbers look pretty strong compared to the G5 potato bowl

25 December 21, 2021 Famous Idaho Potato Bowl Wyoming 52 Kent State 38 10,217
26 December 20, 2022 Famous Idaho Potato Bowl Eastern Michigan 41 San Jose State 27 10,122
27 December 23, 2023 Famous Idaho Potato Bowl Georgia State 45 Utah State 22 12,168

[ElCid]

No way there was 17K in that building, that has to include all sold season tickets and GA, lots and lots of empty season ticket holder seats and there are every week now. It was also homecoming and not a sell out, there is absolutely apathy and it is getting worse. I thought that this year would rebound a little with the new coaching staff but it doesn't really seem like that is driving increase fan support.

So, I've got my own theory. The dynamics between P5 and FCS are way different so there is no need for anyone to spout select P5 or any bigger FBS program's statistics.

And here it is. When we knocked down our home side stadium in the 00s and rebuilt it, we obvious lost a lot of attendance during the construction period. It was either sit on the visitors side or temp bleachers. People "got used" to NOT going to games, even after attending for years, decades. And we had an enviable attendance record, especially considering our size. It has never returned to our preconstruction numbers, even though our home side is one of the best in FCS. And we still haven't replaced our visitor side, knocked down over six years ago.

Likewise, and I haven't crunched the numbers and I am just looking at anecdotal instances, I think the virus has taken its toll on long term attendance. For a couple years, people got "used" to not going to games. Some of those folks, especially older ones may never come back. They either found others things to do, or they were content to watch online, or they liked the money savings from not traveling, tickets, etc.

Also, and it obviously isn't the same for every school, but if you go back and look at our W/L results and try to see if that impacted attendance in general, it really hasn't. It was fairly stable, win or lose. There were slight ups and downs, but I'm talking on average. That might not be true everywhere, but it was a constant in our case. Again, the one big change was the interruption of an attendance routine when the stadium was being replaced. I think the virus has done a similar number at the vast majority of schools. It might have rebounded, but it also happened to coincide with a vast ongoing expansion and use of an acceptable alternative (ESPN+, etc). As a result, you have serious attendance issues.

Getting folks back to a steady routine where they are used to "going to games" and wouldn't miss a game, should be a top priority. But it seems we have a lack of imagination and talent in that regard.

[Sitting Bull]

There’s always the Frisco Bowl where the FCS championship sells out with near 20,000 each year. G5 interest, not so much.

December 20, 2017 Louisiana Tech 51 SMU 10 14,419 notes
December 19, 2018 Ohio 27 San Diego State 0 11,029 notes
December 20, 2019 Kent State 51 Utah State 41 12,120 notes
December 19, 2020 Cancelled due to the COVID-19 pandemic [11]
December 21, 2021 San Diego State 38 No. 24 UTSA 24 15,801 notes
December 17, 2022 Boise State 35 North Texas 32 12,211 notes
December 19, 2023 UTSA 35 Marshall 17 11,215 notes

[Sitting Bull]

Then there’s the Myrtle Beach Bowl. Good bet there’s more people on the golf course

December 21, 2020 Appalachian State 56 North Texas 28 5,000 notes
December 20, 2021 Tulsa 30 Old Dominion 17 6,557 notes
December 19, 2022 Marshall 28 UConn 14 12,023 notes
December 16, 2023 Ohio 41 Georgia Southern 21 8,059 notes

[MSUBobcat]

Those numbers look pretty strong compared to the G5 potato bowl

25 December 21, 2021 Famous Idaho Potato Bowl Wyoming 52 Kent State 38 10,217
26 December 20, 2022 Famous Idaho Potato Bowl Eastern Michigan 41 San Jose State 27 10,122
27 December 23, 2023 Famous Idaho Potato Bowl Georgia State 45 Utah State 22 12,168

Not sure how posting the attendance of random bowl games is supporting your questioning of NDSU's "withering" fan interest. How many fans of random teams (not) wanting to trek to Boise the week of Christmas has absolutely nothing to do with how interested NDSU fans are compared to year's past. People can both not want to travel in large numbers to the so-called "meaningless" XYZ bowl game AND NDSU fan interest can be declining. They aren't remotely related to each other, much less mutually exclusive.

[Professor Chaos]

ND State announced 17,000+ for last weeks game vs Towson. Given that’s virtually a full house, how is that “withering”?
Trust me - it is. That was homecoming last week and it was their lowest homecoming attendance since 2005. They used to sell out every game now they can't even sell out the games against UND and SDSU (at least they haven't yet). NDSU fans are bored and it's not like this is a recent trend as the team has come down to earth a little, this fan apathy started back before COVID even. There are a number of factors playing into that but a big one is I think the program has hit the FCS glass ceiling. They can either continue with the status quo and watch the support continue to shrink or they can aim higher.

[Sitting Bull]

Not sure how posting the attendance of random bowl games is supporting your questioning of NDSU's "withering" fan interest. How many fans of random teams (not) wanting to trek to Boise the week of Christmas has absolutely nothing to do with how interested NDSU fans are compared to year's past. People can both not want to travel in large numbers to the so-called "meaningless" XYZ bowl game AND NDSU fan interest can be declining. They aren't remotely related to each other, much less mutually exclusive.

It doesn’t really other than show how triggered some can get when the world they pine for in many ways looks more ridiculous than the one you’re already in. At least with MW, it doesn’t look like ESPN is pushing your games to weeknights - yet.

Still on the NDSU subject, this withering has been brought up for several years now. You record 17000+ for a recent game and then the response starts with well, there really weren’t that many there - as if the numbers you compare from years ago aren’t subject to the same excuse. I saw the fan support in Frisco 2 years ago. It was anything but withering. You want to see withering? Go G5 and start coming in with annual 5-6 records. Then you’ll see withering.

[Professor Chaos]

It doesn’t really other than show how triggered some can get when the world they pine for in many ways looks more ridiculous than the one you’re already in. At least with MW, it doesn’t look like ESPN is pushing your games to weeknights - yet.

Still on the NDSU subject, this withering has been brought up for several years now. You record 17000+ for a recent game and then the response starts with well, there really weren’t that many there - as if the numbers you compare from years ago aren’t subject to the same excuse. I saw the fan support in Frisco 2 years ago. It was anything but withering. You want to see withering? Go G5 and start coming in with annual 5-6 records. Then you’ll see withering.
Possibly - but they can't keep doing what they are doing because even winning/contenting for championships in the FCS isn't working to stop the attendance decline. This same debate was had at NDSU a little over 20 years ago when it came to moving to D1 - detractors said they'll never be able to compete and a once proud elite D2 program would blend into a sea of average D1 programs. It took an AD and a President with some big-time guts and risk tolerance to make that move and I think NDSU needs that kind of attitude from their leadership again.

[Reign of Terrier]

So, I've got my own theory. The dynamics between P5 and FCS are way different so there is no need for anyone to spout select P5 or any bigger FBS program's statistics.

And here it is. When we knocked down our home side stadium in the 00s and rebuilt it, we obvious lost a lot of attendance during the construction period. It was either sit on the visitors side or temp bleachers. People "got used" to NOT going to games, even after attending for years, decades. And we had an enviable attendance record, especially considering our size. It has never returned to our preconstruction numbers, even though our home side is one of the best in FCS. And we still haven't replaced our visitor side, knocked down over six years ago.

Likewise, and I haven't crunched the numbers and I am just looking at anecdotal instances, I think the virus has taken its toll on long term attendance. For a couple years, people got "used" to not going to games. Some of those folks, especially older ones may never come back. They either found others things to do, or they were content to watch online, or they liked the money savings from not traveling, tickets, etc.

Also, and it obviously isn't the same for every school, but if you go back and look at our W/L results and try to see if that impacted attendance in general, it really hasn't. It was fairly stable, win or lose. There were slight ups and downs, but I'm talking on average. That might not be true everywhere, but it was a constant in our case. Again, the one big change was the interruption of an attendance routine when the stadium was being replaced. I think the virus has done a similar number at the vast majority of schools. It might have rebounded, but it also happened to coincide with a vast ongoing expansion and use of an acceptable alternative (ESPN+, etc). As a result, you have serious attendance issues.

Getting folks back to a steady routine where they are used to "going to games" and wouldn't miss a game, should be a top priority. But it seems we have a lack of imagination and talent in that regard.

Declining attendance is a secular trend at FCS school with notable exceptions. The uptick and streaming/ESPN+ is another factor. If I remember correctly the socon started its streaming package in the early 2010s. Before that you had to depend on a regional sports network like fox sports south to carry the socon. They often didn’t. So you had strong incentive to go to a game.

The other demographic change is the kind of people who go to college and where those people go after college. College educated people are basically leaving rural communities to go to state capitols, big cities, and college towns after they graduate. That’s where the jobs are. So, in the case of a school like Wofford, we just don’t have as many people local after graduation as we used to. Then there’s the fact that if you go to college and care a lot about sports, you’ll probably go to the big state school with the big sports team. There’s been socon memes for 40 years about the wofford/furman fan who goes to usc or Clemson games or even GSU grad that follows the dogs.

There’s nothing wrong with it really, it’s all a hobby at the end of the day. But the explanation is that of sorting (who goes to fcs colleges and stays local) and friction (how easy is it to go to games).

I think Wofford and other FCS schools who have no interest in going bigger would do a lot better by reducing their capacity in some of these stadiums, and focusing on experience. Most FCS programs would have a better fan experience in a stadium of 5k-7k.


Possibly - but they can't keep doing what they are doing because even winning/contenting for championships in the FCS isn't working to stop the attendance decline. This same debate was had at NDSU a little over 20 years ago when it came to moving to D1 - detractors said they'll never be able to compete and a once proud elite D2 program would blend into a sea of average D1 programs. It took an AD and a President with some big-time guts and risk tolerance to make that move and I think NDSU needs that kind of attitude from their leadership again.

For perspective wrt this thread of convo, App State moving up increased their fan attendance. Their home attendance in the 2000s during the threepeat was in the mid-20k. They did expansions, and their last FCS season, they were in the high 20k. Right now they have a capacity of 35k, and seemingly add 5k to their stadium every 5-7 years. They’ve had 33k+ at kidd brewer multiple times, and they’ve had 40k twice.

And they haven’t even been at their apex, which was really like 5 years ago.

[MSUBobcat]

It doesn’t really other than show how triggered some can get when the world they pine for in many ways looks more ridiculous than the one you’re already in. At least with MW, it doesn’t look like ESPN is pushing your games to weeknights - yet.

Still on the NDSU subject, this withering has been brought up for several years now. You record 17000+ for a recent game and then the response starts with well, there really weren’t that many there - as if the numbers you compare from years ago aren’t subject to the same excuse. I saw the fan support in Frisco 2 years ago. It was anything but withering. You want to see withering? Go G5 and start coming in with annual 5-6 records. Then you’ll see withering.

5 of the 6 teams in the Potato Bowl had average attendance in 2023 similar to the 17k NDSU had for that game (Kent State unsurprisingly does not). Those 3 bowl games, held off campus during the week of Christmas, was also attended by similar numbers as the last 4 Bison home playoff games. And I would wager the TV viewership for the Potato Bowl was higher than those 4 playoff games in the Fargodome. I don't think its "more ridiculous" than the world they're already in. Different, not ridiculous.

Hell, MSU isn't anywhere NEAR NDSU's stature and there's already apathy brewing. The last few years, I look at the schedule and go... meh, there's about 2-3 home games I'll get tickets for because the others are going to be blowouts. I didn't even watch Saturday's game against Mercyhurst on TV! This year, Idaho, Sac St and the Brawl are the only games I even WANTED to attend. We went to the home opener just because it's been months since there was football. Last year, if I'm honest, I wasn't excited about ANY of the home games vs Utah Tech, Stetson, Portland State, Cal Poly, NAU or EWU. The average margin of victory for those games was 33.8 points, with PSU being the closest at 16. If NDSU and SDSU leave, sure winning a championship would be awesome, but it won't feel the same. It's getting to where I'd almost rather have 6 exciting home games, possibly losing some, finish 7-4 with an invite to the Potato Bowl than sleep walk thru most of the season.

[Sitting Bull]

Declining attendance is a secular trend at FCS school with notable exceptions. The uptick and streaming/ESPN+ is another factor. If I remember correctly the socon started its streaming package in the early 2010s. Before that you had to depend on a regional sports network like fox sports south to carry the socon. They often didn’t. So you had strong incentive to go to a game.

The other demographic change is the kind of people who go to college and where those people go after college. College educated people are basically leaving rural communities to go to state capitols, big cities, and college towns after they graduate. That’s where the jobs are. So, in the case of a school like Wofford, we just don’t have as many people local after graduation as we used to. Then there’s the fact that if you go to college and care a lot about sports, you’ll probably go to the big state school with the big sports team. There’s been socon memes for 40 years about the wofford/furman fan who goes to usc or Clemson games or even GSU grad that follows the dogs.

There’s nothing wrong with it really, it’s all a hobby at the end of the day. But the explanation is that of sorting (who goes to fcs colleges and stays local) and friction (how easy is it to go to games).

I think Wofford and other FCS schools who have no interest in going bigger would do a lot better by reducing their capacity in some of these stadiums, and focusing on experience. Most FCS programs would have a better fan experience in a stadium of 5k-7k.



For perspective wrt this thread of convo, App State moving up increased their fan attendance. Their home attendance in the 2000s during the threepeat was in the mid-20k. They did expansions, and their last FCS season, they were in the high 20k. Right now they have a capacity of 35k, and seemingly add 5k to their stadium every 5-7 years. They’ve had 33k+ at kidd brewer multiple times, and they’ve had 40k twice.

And they haven’t even been at their apex, which was really like 5 years ago.

I think App State is probably the best success story I can think of having expanded their facilities, their fanbase and exposure. There are others you can point to that have not. UMass and ODU are two examples that actually had larger support numbers playing in the CAA than they do today in G5. I’m not saying either regret their change (though ODU basketball fans would likely argue that point - as would the UMass fans who now find themselves in the MAC for all sports) - just they took winning programs and turned them into struggling programs. In the UMass case, outright embarrassment. In the end, fans like winning. Regardless of classification, winning sells tickets.

That’s no slight on what people at NDSU or the Montanas want to do. Sometimes you don’t appreciate what you have though until it’s gone. And my only experience has been watching all those schools in postseason play as recent as last year - and would call the fan support and enthusiasm I saw anything but bored.

[Reign of Terrier]

I think App State is probably the best success story I can think of having expanded their facilities, their fanbase and exposure. There are others you can point to that have not. UMass and ODU are two examples that actually had larger support numbers playing in the CAA than they do today in G5. I’m not saying either regret their change (though ODU basketball fans would likely argue that point - as would the UMass fans who now find themselves in the MAC for all sports) - just they took winning programs and turned them into struggling programs. In the UMass case, outright embarrassment. In the end, fans like winning. Regardless of classification, winning sells tickets.

That’s no slight on what people at NDSU or the Montanas want to do. Sometimes you don’t appreciate what you have though until it’s gone. And my only experience has been watching all those schools in postseason play as recent as last year - and would call the fan support and enthusiasm I saw anything but bored.

I think there are lots of other examples of success. Coastal is probably another one. If I remember correctly, they struggled to get to 10k when they were FCS, now they regularly get 15k+

Georgia Southern is probably the one that didn’t take any steps forward. I think “not taking a step forward” is probably the median outcome. UMass is the go to example of a failing team, but there aren’t really that many others.

Teams like ODU and Georgia State sped run going FBS, and the latter was a laughable FCS program, but all of ODU’s top attended home games happened since moving up, and Georgia State’s attendance is marginally better than it used to and still probably about 15k on average, which is saying something because they haven’t really ever been relevant.

To be honest with you, what FBS move up from a team with an established program, getting 15k+ for home games didn’t work? Idaho maybe? And even then, it faltered more because of geography than anything

[MSUBobcat]

I think App State is probably the best success story I can think of having expanded their facilities, their fanbase and exposure. There are others you can point to that have not. UMass and ODU are two examples that actually had larger support numbers playing in the CAA than they do today in G5. I’m not saying either regret their change (though ODU basketball fans would likely argue that point - as would the UMass fans who now find themselves in the MAC for all sports) - just they took winning programs and turned them into struggling programs. In the UMass case, outright embarrassment. In the end, fans like winning. Regardless of classification, winning sells tickets.

That’s no slight on what people at NDSU or the Montanas want to do. Sometimes you don’t appreciate what you have though until it’s gone. And my only experience has been watching all those schools in postseason play as recent as last year - and would call the fan support and enthusiasm I saw anything but bored.

Short history, but JMU is probably happy. 1st team to be ranked in their 1st FBS season, 22-5 record since moving up, appeared in a bowl game with a $1.35M payout, P4 win over UNC last weekend. Attendance is actually up substantially, even while playing for an invite to the Lockheed Martin Armed Forces Bowl rather than an FCS championship.

[Reign of Terrier]

Short history, but JMU is probably happy. 1st team to be ranked in their 1st FBS season, 22-5 record since moving up, appeared in a bowl game with a $1.35M payout, P4 win over UNC last weekend. Attendance is actually up substantially, even while playing for an invite to the Lockheed Martin Armed Forces Bowl rather than an FCS championship.

I remember perusing App’s forums when they beat UNC a few years back. Lots of them listed that game on par with their championships. It wasn’t just the win, they had beaten UNC before. It was the vibe.

[Sitting Bull]

Short history, but JMU is probably happy. 1st team to be ranked in their 1st FBS season, 22-5 record since moving up, appeared in a bowl game with a $1.35M payout, P4 win over UNC last weekend. Attendance is actually up substantially, even while playing for an invite to the Lockheed Martin Armed Forces Bowl rather than an FCS championship.

Would agree with most above except their attendance is not “up substantially”. It’s basically the same as they were filling the same stadium consistently in the CAA as they are today.

[KnightoftheRedFlash]

Not sure how posting the attendance of random bowl games is supporting your questioning of NDSU's "withering" fan interest. How many fans of random teams (not) wanting to trek to Boise the week of Christmas has absolutely nothing to do with how interested NDSU fans are compared to year's past. People can both not want to travel in large numbers to the so-called "meaningless" XYZ bowl game AND NDSU fan interest can be declining. They aren't remotely related to each other, much less mutually exclusive.

It is his shtick.

Mid-tier bowl games routinely receive viewership of 1 million and higher. The plethora of them are directly driven by the foundational fact that football fans watch them.

[Reign of Terrier]

Would agree with most above except their attendance is not “up substantially”. It’s basically the same as they were filling the same stadium consistently in the CAA as they are today.

I mean…it’s year 2, they were selling out already and the stadium hasn’t expanded yet, so i’m not surprised?

[Sitting Bull]

I think there are lots of other examples of success. Coastal is probably another one. If I remember correctly, they struggled to get to 10k when they were FCS, now they regularly get 15k+

Georgia Southern is probably the one that didn’t take any steps forward. I think “not taking a step forward” is probably the median outcome. UMass is the go to example of a failing team, but there aren’t really that many others.

Teams like ODU and Georgia State sped run going FBS, and the latter was a laughable FCS program, but all of ODU’s top attended home games happened since moving up, and Georgia State’s attendance is marginally better than it used to and still probably about 15k on average, which is saying something because they haven’t really ever been relevant.

To be honest with you, what FBS move up from a team with an established program, getting 15k+ for home games didn’t work? Idaho maybe? And even then, it faltered more because of geography than anything

Mostly agree but again, ODUs top attended games were all as a CAA program. They had a long consecutive run of sellouts in a 22,000 seat stadium. They have since reduced the size to just under 20,000 playing in G5 and are no longer selling all their games out. Their attendance has actually decreased. That’s not to say they aren’t pleased with where they are in the Sunbelt today. But the fact is they had higher attendance as a winning FCS program than a mediocre G5. Their saving grace was locking some home games with Virginia Tech and East Carolina though I believe I read where Tech has decided to no longer play at ODU.

They did sacrifice their basketball program, both men and women. They were a frequent sellout of 10,000+ at Scope Coliseum. Today they are lucky to average 5,000 and have lost their way. They were a consistent winner until the program got lost in the move to CUSA.

[Sitting Bull]

I mean…it’s year 2, they were selling out already and the stadium hasn’t expanded yet, so i’m not surprised?

Correct. I’m only stating the comment that their attendance is “up substantially” is false. It can’t be until they expand. I’m not sure they have the funds as yet to do that.

[Sitting Bull]

It is his shtick.

Mid-tier bowl games routinely receive viewership of 1 million and higher. The plethora of them are directly driven by the foundational fact that football fans watch them.

Who cares? Their own fans obviously aren’t attending. The only beneficiaries are ESPN and couch potatoes. That’s the postseason carrot?

[Reign of Terrier]

okay now that’s just pedantic

[Reign of Terrier]

Mostly agree but again, ODUs top attended games were all as a CAA program. They had a long consecutive run of sellouts in a 22,000 seat stadium. They have since reduced the size to just under 20,000 playing in G5 and are no longer selling all their games out. Their attendance has actually decreased. That’s not to say they aren’t pleased with where they are in the Sunbelt today. But the fact is they had higher attendance as a winning FCS program than a mediocre G5. Their saving grace was locking some home games with Virginia Tech and East Carolina though I believe I read where Tech has decided to no longer play at ODU.

They did sacrifice their basketball program, both men and women. They were a frequent sellout of 10,000+ at Scope Coliseum. Today they are lucky to average 5,000 and have lost their way. They were a consistent winner until the program got lost in the move to CUSA.

Not sure if this is true, simply because 1) it doesn’t make sense 2) i googled “SB Ballard Stadium reduced capacity” and found nothing 3) it’s wikipedia page says it reduced capacity in the 90s before ODU had a program 4) all the stated attendance from their FCS days via wiki list attendance at under 20k and 5) they had over 21k twice already this season. Sure, attendance has been rough, but solidly above 15k for the last 5 years. not bad for a team that’s been mediocre at best during that time.

And even so, there were plans to expand the stadium to 30k. I don’t see that as an indication that there is less enthusiasm or that they are a flailing or worse off or even at par when they were FCS.

[Reign of Terrier]

Who cares? Their own fans obviously aren’t attending. The only beneficiaries are ESPN and couch potatoes. That’s the postseason carrot?
People who want to see their team on TV, and in the same conversation with p4 teams in a consequential matter, and not as a random trivia question.

Also i would much rather play in Florida in December than Missoula

[MSUBobcat]

Would agree with most above except their attendance is not “up substantially”. It’s basically the same as they were filling the same stadium consistently in the CAA as they are today.

Well... the local newspaper would disagree with YOU... up 5.5% from 2021 (last year in FCS) to 2022. (https://www.dnronline.com/sports/with-record-crowds-jmu-ad-looking-at-logistics/article_6005b802-74c4-5fd1-9de6-cd22868c89c8.html) Just in case there was some "1st year back after COVID" impact on the 2021 season attendance, I added up the attendance from the 2019 regular season (where they made the chipper, so the team was worth fan attention) but omitted the poorly attended playoff games . 132,865 for an average of 22,144 (25k attendance only once, vs. Nova). In 2023, they averaged 25,372, up another 10.48% from 2022's 22,966 average attendance, with only one game under 25k (vs Bucknell and even that had an attendance of 23,756). I guess we have different definitions of "substantially".....

I suppose they were under-reporting their own attendance when they were FCS though, right xrolleyesx

[Sitting Bull]

Well... the local newspaper would disagree with YOU... up 5.5% from 2021 (last year in FCS) to 2022. (https://www.dnronline.com/sports/with-record-crowds-jmu-ad-looking-at-logistics/article_6005b802-74c4-5fd1-9de6-cd22868c89c8.html) Just in case there was some "1st year back after COVID" impact on the 2021 season attendance, I added up the attendance from the 2019 regular season (where they made the chipper, so the team was worth fan attention) but omitted the poorly attended playoff games . 132,865 for an average of 22,144 (25k attendance only once, vs. Nova). In 2023, they averaged 25,372, up another 10.48% from 2022's 22,966 average attendance, with only one game under 25k (vs Bucknell and even that had an attendance of 23,756). I guess we have different definitions of "substantially".....

I suppose they were under-reporting their own attendance when they were FCS though, right xrolleyesx

No, I don’t consider 5% substantial. Maybe you should have looked up the actual numbers before you made the original statement.

[MSUBobcat]

No, I don’t consider 5% substantial. Maybe you should have looked up the actual numbers before you made the original statement.

xlolx That was just from 2021 to 2022, i.e. from 21,769 to 22,966. Then it went up another 10.48% from 2022 to 2023, from 22,966 to 25,372. Did you miss that part of the comment? After 2 full seasons in FBS, their attendance went up 3,603 (16.55%). Even going from their last championship run in 2019 (ave. attendance of 22,144), their attendance is up 3,228 (14.58%). I think pretty much every program would call that a SUBSTANTIAL increase.

[Sitting Bull]

Not sure if this is true, simply because 1) it doesn’t make sense 2) i googled “SB Ballard Stadium reduced capacity” and found nothing 3) it’s wikipedia page says it reduced capacity in the 90s before ODU had a program 4) all the stated attendance from their FCS days via wiki list attendance at under 20k and 5) they had over 21k twice already this season. Sure, attendance has been rough, but solidly above 15k for the last 5 years. not bad for a team that’s been mediocre at best during that time.

And even so, there were plans to expand the stadium to 30k. I don’t see that as an indication that there is less enthusiasm or that they are a flailing or worse off or even at par when they were FCS.

ODU averaged 20,016 per game in their last year in CAA, 2012. Last year in Sunbelt, ODU averaged 17,850 per game. That’s down - you might even call it a “substantial decline”.

Even with that, I’m not saying ODU is worse off. Just this shift from FCS to G5 isn’t some huge lift that some make of it. It largely depends on the school and the conference options available.

[NY Crusader 2010]

ODU basketball was certainly at it's peak as a member of the late 2000's CAA. Technically they sort of "sacrificed" their basketball program to pursue FBS football, first to C-USA and now to the Sun Belt. I love the Sun Belt of today btw but it's just not a basketball-focused conference. However, there is absolutely no scenario, even if ODU hadn't started football at all, where they'd still be in the CAA today...so it's kind of a moot point. Had they never launched the program in 2009, ODU basketball would almost certainly be in the Atlantic 10 today, which obviously isn't an option in a world where they want to pursue FBS football.

[KnightoftheRedFlash]

Who cares? Their own fans obviously aren’t attending. The only beneficiaries are ESPN and couch potatoes. That’s the postseason carrot?

TV viewers do. The drivers behind the massive contracts. People want to watch bowl games. Meanwhile, most FCS playoff games are buried on ESPN+ next to volleyball matches.

Your comparison of the FCS Championship Game with a random bowl game is laughable and showcases poor statistical analysis.

At the end of the day, programs have constantly moved up, and only one (Idaho) has moved down, and that was mostly a geographical consequence.

A bowl game and association with the P4 (i.e. TV slots and a higher payout for a money game) is valued higher than a playoff game in Fargo. You can argue college sports should be about winning a title but it is a business and it was better business for JMU and friends to leave national championship chances behind for a FBS slot.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

5 of the 6 teams in the Potato Bowl had average attendance in 2023 similar to the 17k NDSU had for that game (Kent State unsurprisingly does not). Those 3 bowl games, held off campus during the week of Christmas, was also attended by similar numbers as the last 4 Bison home playoff games. And I would wager the TV viewership for the Potato Bowl was higher than those 4 playoff games in the Fargodome. I don't think its "more ridiculous" than the world they're already in. Different, not ridiculous.

Hell, MSU isn't anywhere NEAR NDSU's stature and there's already apathy brewing. The last few years, I look at the schedule and go... meh, there's about 2-3 home games I'll get tickets for because the others are going to be blowouts. I didn't even watch Saturday's game against Mercyhurst on TV! This year, Idaho, Sac St and the Brawl are the only games I even WANTED to attend. We went to the home opener just because it's been months since there was football. Last year, if I'm honest, I wasn't excited about ANY of the home games vs Utah Tech, Stetson, Portland State, Cal Poly, NAU or EWU. The average margin of victory for those games was 33.8 points, with PSU being the closest at 16. If NDSU and SDSU leave, sure winning a championship would be awesome, but it won't feel the same. It's getting to where I'd almost rather have 6 exciting home games, possibly losing some, finish 7-4 with an invite to the Potato Bowl than sleep walk thru most of the season.

I believe Richmond's home CAA schedule was a big reason why they decided to leave the CAA. As long as they can continue their Rivalry with William & Mary - all other FCS games pale in comparison - why not get some Ivy games, the occasional strong Patriot League home game and a better shot at playoff access? Delaware ain't walking down that tunnel. Point being that there are lots of ways to gin up attendance. Ironically, Wyoming going to the Big Sky could do that for them better than Montana and MSU heading to the MWC (because you'd have Idaho and others).

[Sitting Bull]

TV viewers do. The drivers behind the massive contracts. People want to watch bowl games. Meanwhile, most FCS playoff games are buried on ESPN+ next to volleyball matches.

Your comparison of the FCS Championship Game with a random bowl game is laughable and showcases poor statistical analysis.

At the end of the day, programs have constantly moved up, and only one (Idaho) has moved down, and that was mostly a geographical consequence.

A bowl game and association with the P4 (i.e. TV slots and a higher payout for a money game) is valued higher than a playoff game in Fargo. You can argue college sports should be about winning a title but it is a business and it was better business for JMU and friends to leave national championship chances behind for a FBS slot.

I’m arguing that there are pros and cons between making moves from FCS to G5. It depends on the school and the options. Your belief that decisions on a schools entire athletic program should be primarily based on TV coverage and phantom P4 associations is adolescent.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I think App State is probably the best success story I can think of having expanded their facilities, their fanbase and exposure. There are others you can point to that have not. UMass and ODU are two examples that actually had larger support numbers playing in the CAA than they do today in G5. I’m not saying either regret their change (though ODU basketball fans would likely argue that point - as would the UMass fans who now find themselves in the MAC for all sports) - just they took winning programs and turned them into struggling programs. In the UMass case, outright embarrassment. In the end, fans like winning. Regardless of classification, winning sells tickets.

That’s no slight on what people at NDSU or the Montanas want to do. Sometimes you don’t appreciate what you have though until it’s gone. And my only experience has been watching all those schools in postseason play as recent as last year - and would call the fan support and enthusiasm I saw anything but bored.

App State is probably the poster child for an FBS move because they did a ton of homework, took their time doing so... and happen to have a lot of relationships with the big local ACC schools and Missouri that they've cultivated over time. App put a lot of work in. And even after all that... they're just a Sun Belt school.

As for UMass and ODU, UMass didn't have a plan to leave the A-10, upgrade their stadium, integrate themselves with the MAC... so it was (and continues to be) a disaster. ODU's FBS move came by all accounts because of a six-week period during the men's NCAA Tournament, so it too obviously wasn't done with all the requisite legwork.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I think there are lots of other examples of success. Coastal is probably another one. If I remember correctly, they struggled to get to 10k when they were FCS, now they regularly get 15k+

Is that honestly the standard of success? Coastal should not be an FBS program at all. If this were 1982 and Coastal were appealing for I-A membership with those numbers, they'd have been laughed out of the room and compared to VMI.

[wapiti]

TV viewers do. The drivers behind the massive contracts. People want to watch bowl games. Meanwhile, most FCS playoff games are buried on ESPN+ next to volleyball matches.

Your comparison of the FCS Championship Game with a random bowl game is laughable and showcases poor statistical analysis.

At the end of the day, programs have constantly moved up, and only one (Idaho) has moved down, and that was mostly a geographical consequence.

A bowl game and association with the P4 (i.e. TV slots and a higher payout for a money game) is valued higher than a playoff game in Fargo. You can argue college sports should be about winning a title but it is a business and it was better business for JMU and friends to leave national championship chances behind for a FBS slot.

Why a geographical consequence? Boise state is just a few hours drive away from UI and has done well since jumping to FBS and Washington State U is about a 20 minute drive away.

[Reign of Terrier]

I believe Richmond's home CAA schedule was a big reason why they decided to leave the CAA. As long as they can continue their Rivalry with William & Mary - all other FCS games pale in comparison - why not get some Ivy games, the occasional strong Patriot League home game and a better shot at playoff access? Delaware ain't walking down that tunnel. Point being that there are lots of ways to gin up attendance. Ironically, Wyoming going to the Big Sky could do that for them better than Montana and MSU heading to the MWC (because you'd have Idaho and others).

The better conversation, in line with what I’ve said in earlier threads, is that significance is totally relative and it’s best to make the move that will excite your alumni and students. For Wofford, it’s playing Furman, Citadel and socon opponents. For the G5 teams, App cares more about playing ECU, JMU, Georgia Southern and having a 2 for 1 with a p4.

Which brings me to the auxiliary point that ODU stuff is kind of silly because they’re going to be a lot more excited to play JMU and others than vice versa. CAA vs Sun Belt attendance is the better comparison, not CUSA


I’m arguing that there are pros and cons between making moves from FCS to G5. It depends on the school and the options. Your belief that decisions on a schools entire athletic program should be primarily based on TV coverage and phantom P4 associations is adolescent.

TV coverage leads to both money and prestige, especially compared to the little old FCS, which is why no fan of a team moving up regrets it…unless they suck, like Idaho did or UMass. The skeptics of moving like to point to outlier examples like those 2, when the overwhelming majority of move ups are pretty successful. 15 years ago, it was an eccentric but respectable position to say “maybe the grass isn’t greener, playoffs are awesome!” but now we have seen enough evidence where it’s more a weird position.


Is that honestly the standard of success? Coastal should not be an FBS program at all. If this were 1982 and Coastal were appealing for I-A membership with those numbers, they'd have been laughed out of the room and compared to VMI.

This is silly. Coastal has already won a conference championship and had over 20k at their last home game. They’ve had p4 teams come to their place. They finished a regular season undefeated. They went to a bowl game in each of the last 4 seasons and will likely make another. Why shouldn’t they be FBS? Because you say so? I would like to think we have learned something since 1982.

[MSUBobcat]

One thing that DOES factor in for a school like Montana State that hasn't been brought up is how much of a financial boon those games are for Bozeman/Gallatin Valley. Those 1-3 weekends of people flooding in for a night (or 2) fill a lot of hotel beds, restaurants and bars at a time when tourism hasn't ramped up for the ski season brings in a lot of ducats. This article (https://www.kbzk.com/news/local-news/bobcat-fcs-playoff-games-bring-in-millions-for-bozeman-and-montanas-economy) quoted the Chamber of Commerce CEO estimating the game against the Bison last year would bring in $3.5-4M alone to the local economy. That's serious money that dries up going to the FBS.

How much does the school factor in the economics of the private parties to maintain the strong relationship with the locals vs its own interests. Bozeman has grown immensely since I was there at the turn of the millennium, but Bozeman is still very much a college town. As a fan who doesn't live there, I kinda lean toward trying to get into the FBS when an opportunity arises in anticipation of a future semi-pro P4 split from the rest of the G6 and future playoff system, but I imagine there would be a very vocal local lobbying group pushing against it.

[NY Crusader 2010]

One thing that DOES factor in for a school like Montana State that hasn't been brought up is how much of a financial boon those games are for Bozeman/Gallatin Valley. Those 1-3 weekends of people flooding in for a night (or 2) fill a lot of hotel beds, restaurants and bars at a time when tourism hasn't ramped up for the ski season brings in a lot of ducats. This article (https://www.kbzk.com/news/local-news/bobcat-fcs-playoff-games-bring-in-millions-for-bozeman-and-montanas-economy) quoted the Chamber of Commerce CEO estimating the game against the Bison last year would bring in $3.5-4M alone to the local economy. That's serious money that dries up going to the FBS.

How much does the school factor in the economics of the private parties to maintain the strong relationship with the locals vs its own interests. Bozeman has grown immensely since I was there at the turn of the millennium, but Bozeman is still very much a college town. As a fan who doesn't live there, I kinda lean toward trying to get into the FBS when an opportunity arises in anticipation of a future semi-pro P4 split from the rest of the G6 and future playoff system, but I imagine there would be a very vocal local lobbying group pushing against it.

The counter-argument would be that potential home games against bigger name opponents would make up for the extra playoff weekends. And, aside from people physically going to the games, local interest would increase even more with an FBS move meaning more people going out to watch games at local watering holes.

I think it's moot though. Having visited Bozeman for an FCS playoff game in December 2022, I am under the impression that the metro area is one of the fastest growing in the US. I think when it comes to growth, the city will plow through losing a couple of playoff weekends per year without any issue.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Why a geographical consequence? Boise state is just a few hours drive away from UI and has done well since jumping to FBS and Washington State U is about a 20 minute drive away.

Idaho was really an affiliation consequence. When the WAC folded, the Mountain West had no interest in Idaho. They took Nevada, SJSU, Utah State and Hawaii (football only) but passed on Idaho. They had previously been a Sun Belt affiliate before getting into the WAC, but the Sun Belt had no interest in bringing them back either. The last three or four years they were FBS, Idaho was actually back in the Big Sky already for other sports and was playing indy in football. Hawaii has been playing in the Big West in other sports, which is basically a league of all the California state schools.

[KnightoftheRedFlash]

Why a geographical consequence? Boise state is just a few hours drive away from UI and has done well since jumping to FBS and Washington State U is about a 20 minute drive away.

Idaho has nowhere to go. The WAC had died, the Sun Belt dumped them, and the MWC wasn't adding a second Potato State school. They could have toughen out the independent route but decided to drop down.

They likely find a home if the school existed in Georgia.

[KnightoftheRedFlash]

I’m arguing that there are pros and cons between making moves from FCS to G5. It depends on the school and the options. Your belief that decisions on a schools entire athletic program should be primarily based on TV coverage and phantom P4 associations is adolescent.

Yet, the only schools that regret the move are Idaho and UMass. Every other school is supremely happy and have no desire to drop down. Even UMASS is willing to join the MAC over returning to the CAA football/A-10 basketball model.

TV coverage is the front porch to the nation. G5 schools consistently play on ABC, ESPN, FOX, etc. FCS teams land on ESPN+. (Unless you are the Ivy and the HBCUs, that receive occasional ESPNU slots, but those schools aren't looking to jump to FBS. They are happy existing in self-inflicted isolation.)

Those 1.4 million paydays aren't phantom.

Let's face it, you have always taken a childish viewpoint towards the G5. Yet, the evidence and trends show that programs are happy to jump. ODU has hosted Virginia Tech twice. That doesn't happen if they stay FCS.


App State is probably the poster child for an FBS move because they did a ton of homework, took their time doing so... and happen to have a lot of relationships with the big local ACC schools and Missouri that they've cultivated over time. App put a lot of work in. And even after all that... they're just a Sun Belt school.

As for UMass and ODU, UMass didn't have a plan to leave the A-10, upgrade their stadium, integrate themselves with the MAC... so it was (and continues to be) a disaster. ODU's FBS move came by all accounts because of a six-week period during the men's NCAA Tournament, so it too obviously wasn't done with all the requisite legwork.

The Sun Belt is arguably now in line for the #1 G5 conference spot. Or, at least, successfully jousting for the position. It is not 2012. The conference has grown significantly in football prestige. The Sun Belt receives media attention and TV slots that the SoCon never will.


Is that honestly the standard of success? Coastal should not be an FBS program at all. If this were 1982 and Coastal were appealing for I-A membership with those numbers, they'd have been laughed out of the room and compared to VMI.

Coastal is a rapidly growing program and it isn't 1982 any more. The whole paradigm has shifted.

[Sitting Bull]

I don’t think we have any Sac State fans on this board but they have reportedly thrown their interest out to the MW. This one seems pretty logical to me given the market and the possible links with San Jose, Fresno and SD State (understood not all in same league). That seems right now the most likely shift even though some on another board have commented Sac State didn’t have the facilities for the move. I thought they had a fairly large stadium. But those concerns didn’t stop Kennesaw and Sam Houston.

[JacksFan40]

Idaho was really an affiliation consequence. When the WAC folded, the Mountain West had no interest in Idaho. They took Nevada, SJSU, Utah State and Hawaii (football only) but passed on Idaho. They had previously been a Sun Belt affiliate before getting into the WAC, but the Sun Belt had no interest in bringing them back either. The last three or four years they were FBS, Idaho was actually back in the Big Sky already for other sports and was playing indy in football. Hawaii has been playing in the Big West in other sports, which is basically a league of all the California state schools.
Idaho was in the Sun Belt the final few years of their FBS run. The whole reason they dropped back down was because the Sun Belt was kicking them and NMSU out.

[Libertine]

So, back to the titular topic:

Thanks to financial incentives from the Mountain West, UNLV and Air Force are officially staying in the MWC.

https://www.espn.com/college-sports/story/_/id/41448219/sources-unlv-air-force-remain-mwc-financial-incentives

[Sitting Bull]

I didn’t see this posted but it gives an interesting take on the primary schools discussed from the FCS side and the financial concerns that are part of the consideration. I don’t think this would be the first time Montana in particular has been approached. They have reportedly turned down similar opportunities. As part of the G5 roadmap includes selling out to ESPN for financial assistance, I.e. midweek football games, I wonder how that influences someone like Montana that pulls in 25,000 for weekend games from around a large state. Tuesday night football doesn’t seem like a good hand to deal Griz fans.

https://kgrzmissoula.com/griz-fbs-jump-realignment/

[smilo]

So are New Mexico, San Jose State, UNLV, Nevada, Air Force and Wyomings of the world worth a move? Will it be that much more fun for Griz fans to see these teams instead of Weber State, Northern Arizona, Sacramento State and UC Davis?

Yes. Those teams are a lot more fun to watch. My eyes were glued to Montana State-New Mexico. I'm not tuning in for those other games. But Sac State and UC-Davis seem likely to move anyway.

Heck, Sac State seems like the second most likely team to round out the Pac-12 after Texas State, assuming they don't suddenly get, like, Nevada to crack after UNLV and Air Force bowed out.

[MSUBobcat]

The counter-argument would be that potential home games against bigger name opponents would make up for the extra playoff weekends. And, aside from people physically going to the games, local interest would increase even more with an FBS move meaning more people going out to watch games at local watering holes.

I think it's moot though. Having visited Bozeman for an FCS playoff game in December 2022, I am under the impression that the metro area is one of the fastest growing in the US. I think when it comes to growth, the city will plow through losing a couple of playoff weekends per year without any issue.

The counter-argument is mostly moot because the stadium (and thereby the hotels, restaurants and bars) is already getting filled even playing a team like Mercyhurst (for now). You could bring in Alabama and it wouldn't have much more impact to the local economy than the Oct. 5th game vs. NoCo. Maybe a few extra SRO tickets sold and the last few available hotel beds filled but definitely not enough of a difference to make up for a whole extra playoff weekend or 3. A hotel going from 98% sold to 100% is a far cry from it going from 30% full to 90% full. And that doesn't even factor in the "premium" pricing at hotels during game weekends. A quick Expedia search for rooms on Oct 19th, when the Cats are in Portland vs Oct. 5th when lowly Northern Colorado comes to town shows lodging is about $100 more. Local interest is already at all-time highs (again, for now... a home schedule full of blowouts is getting mundane, IMO, and I expect that apathy to grow. Winning is great, competitive games are more fun to watch), so I wouldn't imagine too many locals going to a watering hole for the game than already are already doing that.

You are correct that Bozeman is growing stupid-fast, regardless of a playoff game or 2 each year. That does not negate the revenue brought in during those games for the local business, i.e. their income will undoubtedly be higher WITH a game in early December than without. Those beds, tables and barstools will be much less full. That was my point about local business owners potentially being against the move up, at least in the FBS's current format.

[POD Knows]

Air Force and UNLV are staying put in the MWC, the Pac 12 will pick up some CA school or TX Schools to get to 8, the MWC will pull a TX school from another conference and grab another one and this conversation will be over for a while, NDSU/SDSU/MSU/UM will not move up.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

People like to think of the puppydogs and ice cream scenarios of FBS membership ("imagine hosting Penn State, or North Carolina!") and not the more realistic scenarios ("are Fresno State fans flying out to Missoula on a Tuesday to watch a Mountain West conference game in November a half-empty freezing stadium? Repeatedly?") This does however illustrate how geography is so intimately mixed in with the decision. App State and JMU have plenty of ACC teams, and Vanderbilt, and Missouri... to call for a 2-for-1 or maybe a 3-for-1. They're bus rides, and it's more doable. In the East, that crap doesn't work at all (see: UMass, and eventually, Delaware, though it will take a few years).

The MVC and Pac-7 are now in a fascinating spiral. And to some degree it makes a lot of sense that the dynamics for the Dakotas/Treasure State schools and the Cali schools are different. The Dakotas/Treasure State schools could do well in a sort-of properly scaled MWC, while the Cali schools all grew up idolizing Stanford, Cal, USC and UCLA, and would jump at the chance to associate with the Pac even in a diminished form, make no mistake. But that's not what's on the table right now. Incidentally, had Stanford and Cal not made the incredibly foolish decision to listen to Jack Swarbrick and join the ACC, we'd probably be talking about a new Pac-10 or Pac-12 that is better and stronger than the ACC, even with some FCS schools possibly integrated in as well as Gonzaga.

[MSUBobcat]

People like to think of the puppydogs and ice cream scenarios of FBS membership ("imagine hosting Penn State, or North Carolina!") and not the more realistic scenarios ("are Fresno State fans flying out to Missoula on a Tuesday to watch a Mountain West conference game in November a half-empty freezing stadium? Repeatedly?") This does however illustrate how geography is so intimately mixed in with the decision. App State and JMU have plenty of ACC teams, and Vanderbilt, and Missouri... to call for a 2-for-1 or maybe a 3-for-1. They're bus rides, and it's more doable. In the East, that crap doesn't work at all (see: UMass, and eventually, Delaware, though it will take a few years).

The MVC and Pac-7 are now in a fascinating spiral. And to some degree it makes a lot of sense that the dynamics for the Dakotas/Treasure State schools and the Cali schools are different. The Dakotas/Treasure State schools could do well in a sort-of properly scaled MWC, while the Cali schools all grew up idolizing Stanford, Cal, USC and UCLA, and would jump at the chance to associate with the Pac even in a diminished form, make no mistake. But that's not what's on the table right now. Incidentally, had Stanford and Cal not made the incredibly foolish decision to listen to Jack Swarbrick and join the ACC, we'd probably be talking about a new Pac-10 or Pac-12 that is better and stronger than the ACC, even with some FCS schools possibly integrated in as well as Gonzaga.

If you are relying on fans of the opposing team to come fill up your stadium, perhaps it's time to rethink whether moving up is the right move. With possibly the exception of NDSU (apparently), there's fans of the home team that can't get tickets to games, so if 0 opposing fans show up, all the better. As far as "imagining hosting Penn State", Boise State hosted Big-12's OK State in 2021, ACC's Virginia in 2017, PAC-12's Wazzou in 2016 when the PAC was still a power conference, Washington in 2015, SEC's Ole Miss in 2014, etc. Is it going to happen every year or even in the near future.... probably not. But it currently has a snowball's chance in hell of ever happening for an FCS team.

[KnightoftheRedFlash]

People like to think of the puppydogs and ice cream scenarios of FBS membership ("imagine hosting Penn State, or North Carolina!") and not the more realistic scenarios ("are Fresno State fans flying out to Missoula on a Tuesday to watch a Mountain West conference game in November a half-empty freezing stadium? Repeatedly?") This does however illustrate how geography is so intimately mixed in with the decision. App State and JMU have plenty of ACC teams, and Vanderbilt, and Missouri... to call for a 2-for-1 or maybe a 3-for-1. They're bus rides, and it's more doable. In the East, that crap doesn't work at all (see: UMass, and eventually, Delaware, though it will take a few years).

The MVC and Pac-7 are now in a fascinating spiral. And to some degree it makes a lot of sense that the dynamics for the Dakotas/Treasure State schools and the Cali schools are different. The Dakotas/Treasure State schools could do well in a sort-of properly scaled MWC, while the Cali schools all grew up idolizing Stanford, Cal, USC and UCLA, and would jump at the chance to associate with the Pac even in a diminished form, make no mistake. But that's not what's on the table right now. Incidentally, had Stanford and Cal not made the incredibly foolish decision to listen to Jack Swarbrick and join the ACC, we'd probably be talking about a new Pac-10 or Pac-12 that is better and stronger than the ACC, even with some FCS schools possibly integrated in as well as Gonzaga.

The Mountain West doesn't play games on Tuesday or Wednesday.

UMass is hosting a top-ten Missouri team this year and have welcomed Boston College and BYU in recent years.

No G5 team is hosting Penn State but UNC has repeatedly visited G5 foes such as App State, Georgia State, ODU or ECU. The Tar Heels visit Charlotte in 2025.

[KnightoftheRedFlash]

If you are relying on fans of the opposing team to come fill up your stadium, perhaps it's time to rethink whether moving up is the right move. With possibly the exception of NDSU (apparently), there's fans of the home team that can't get tickets to games, so if 0 opposing fans show up, all the better. As far as "imagining hosting Penn State", Boise State hosted Big-12's OK State in 2021, ACC's Virginia in 2017, PAC-12's Wazzou in 2016 when the PAC was still a power conference, Washington in 2015, SEC's Ole Miss in 2014, etc. Is it going to happen every year or even in the near future.... probably not. But it currently has a snowball's chance in hell of ever happening for an FCS team.

A snowball has a better chance in hell than any FBS team ever visiting a FCS team again. The Army visit to Yale in 2014 was a super-special (and silly decision) to honor the Yale Bowl's 100th anniversary.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

.. while the Cali schools all grew up idolizing Stanford, Cal, USC and UCLA, and would jump at the chance to associate with the Pac even in a diminished form, make no mistake....

Right on cue...

https://twitter.com/SamHerderFCS/status/1839359205159174158

For the record, bigger than Coastal Carolina's Brooks stadium, but this new multipurpose stadium wouldn't have qualified in 1982 for I-A.

[NY Crusader 2010]

The Mountain West doesn't play games on Tuesday or Wednesday.

UMass is hosting a top-ten Missouri team this year and have welcomed Boston College and BYU in recent years.

No G5 team is hosting Penn State but UNC has repeatedly visited G5 foes such as App State, Georgia State, ODU or ECU. The Tar Heels visit Charlotte in 2025.

Holy Cross-Georgetown, played in Worcester on the same day as that UMASS-BYU game in Amherst, actually drew a larger crowd.