Pac-12 Expansion - Potential FCS Repercussions

[DFW HOYA]

Holy Cross-Georgetown, played in Worcester on the same day as that UMASS-BYU game in Amherst, actually drew a larger crowd.

That said, the days of Georgetown sending any fans to Fitton Field (as they did in the mid 1990s) is long gone. It's never going to be a rivalry in a league when only one rivalry counts.

[KnightoftheRedFlash]

Right on cue...

https://twitter.com/SamHerderFCS/status/1839359205159174158

For the record, bigger than Coastal Carolina's Brooks stadium, but this new multipurpose stadium wouldn't have qualified in 1982 for I-A.

It is not 1982 any more. That was two years before the Supreme Court shattered the NCAA's stranglehold on TV rights. Now TV ratings and contracts outweigh stadium size.

[DFW HOYA]

It is not 1982 any more. That was two years before the Supreme Court shattered the NCAA's stranglehold on TV rights. Now TV ratings and contracts outweigh stadium size.

To a point. Few major schools are coming to a 25,000 seat stadium if they don't have to. Some FCS programs won't even come to a 4,000 seat stadium.

[caribbeanhen]

It is not 1982 any more. That was two years before the Supreme Court shattered the NCAA's stranglehold on TV rights. Now TV ratings and contracts outweigh stadium size.

So why are all these schools hell bent on Stadium expansions?

[UNHWildcat18]

So why are all these schools hell bent on Stadium expansions?


I wish UNH had a massive push to expand the stadium…(aka redo the away side)

[Professor Chaos]

Sac St joining the mold of recent FBS move-ups Sam Houston and Kennesaw as an FCS athletic department that subsidized 80% of their revenue or more from school funds and student fees. Just mind-blowing that schools (and students) would be on board with handing out even more money to the athletic department once the budget increases to the FBS/G5 level.

In the latest year it was reported (2022) Sac St pulled in a total of $294K in ticket revenue and $691K in contributions (aka donations) - not sure how their "feasibility study" can be anymore more than fluff if it says anything other than "you don't have the money".

https://sportsdata.usatoday.com/ncaa/finances/110617

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I wish UNH had a massive push to expand the stadium…(aka redo the away side)

I don't understand why UNH simply have not torn it down and replace the seating with a basic, yet modern bleacher arrangement. Lafayette's away side would absolutely serve the purpose and look good too...

https://photos.smugmug.com/Lafayette-College-Fisher-Stadium-Easton-Pennsylvania/i-JMMNZdB/0/Mstp2dt9t9bzwPd43pNFSTsqjhQXDNBgNbSrj5nQN/M/DSC_0425-M.jpg

[UNHWildcat18]

I don't understand why UNH simply have not torn it down and replace the seating with a basic, yet modern bleacher arrangement. Lafayette's away side would absolutely serve the purpose and look good too...

https://photos.smugmug.com/Lafayette-College-Fisher-Stadium-Easton-Pennsylvania/i-JMMNZdB/0/Mstp2dt9t9bzwPd43pNFSTsqjhQXDNBgNbSrj5nQN/M/DSC_0425-M.jpg

I see what you are saying but I disagree. There is infrastructure underneath it. They should have torn it down to the base, ran it to the edge of the track and gone the whole field length like it used to.Then outside of renovating underneath they would have extra space up top for press boxes etc… They had all of this in an original design.

Sadly I don’t think FBS or anything is going to get them to change it anytime soon.

Good for Davis and Sac State for pushing though

[Reign of Terrier]

As a sidenote, I imagine the price of building a brand new 25k stadium for Davis/Sac State would be easily north of 200 or 300m, given how expensive land is out in California.

[Reign of Terrier]

Also, this thought popped into my head just now, and it may be an obvious one but I’ll say it anyway: a lot of people in this thread (myself included) look at having a football team and where they play under the lens of winning and championships, but your typical college president/board of trustees probably looks at it more with the lens of enhancing campus life and alumni relations. Part of the reason they are building these bigger stadiums and trying to grow their profile is because it helps build their profile within their communities

[JacksFan40]

Brett McMurphy reporting that the MWC has reached out to NIU and Toledo as football only members. Really odd move if it’s true.

[SDFS]

As a sidenote, I imagine the price of building a brand new 25k stadium for Davis/Sac State would be easily north of 200 or 300m, given how expensive land is out in California.

Davis already has a stadium in place that can be expanded by design. I don't think land would be an issue. And the same with Sac State, the updates they are talking about are at the same site as the existing stadium. I think they would need to tear down some of it and start over.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Brett McMurphy reporting that the MWC has reached out to NIU and Toledo as football only members. Really odd move if it’s true.

Just saw this! If true, I would like the AAC to make a push for Buffalo as well as Ohio U and/or Miami (OH). All 3 would be a good fit academically/institutionally imo.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Brett McMurphy reporting that the MWC has reached out to NIU and Toledo as football only members. Really odd move if it’s true.

And then for other sports, they'll be heading to....the Horizon League?

I think I'm done following all this realignment. Getting way too confusing. Nothing makes sense anymore.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

And then for other sports, they'll be heading to....the Horizon League?

I think I'm done following all this realignment. Getting way too confusing. Nothing makes sense anymore.

MVC? Toledo would definitely be a good get for hoops. NIU generally stinks....

[MSUBobcat]

Sac St joining the mold of recent FBS move-ups Sam Houston and Kennesaw as an FCS athletic department that subsidized 80% of their revenue or more from school funds and student fees. Just mind-blowing that schools (and students) would be on board with handing out even more money to the athletic department once the budget increases to the FBS/G5 level.

In the latest year it was reported (2022) Sac St pulled in a total of $294K in ticket revenue and $691K in contributions (aka donations) - not sure how their "feasibility study" can be anymore more than fluff if it says anything other than "you don't have the money".

https://sportsdata.usatoday.com/ncaa/finances/110617

Last reported numbers have to be 2021 or everyone is lying. Sac State's 2021 numbers are the same as 2022, as are Montana State's and NDSU's. It's also important to remember that Sac State is a very large school. Their enrollment is nearly double MSU's in 2021 (~31,500 vs. 16,841) and 2.5x NDSU's 12,461. This allows them to make significantly more athletic fees from students at similar rates. Sac States schools funds + student fees breaks down to about $968/student, MSU's is $711 and NDSU's is $763. In most students' minds, I don't think they're balking at $200 difference in athletic fees when tuition is in the (tens of) thousands. Sure, those may go up but without even considering the extra media income, Sac State has (had) a budget bigger than like 19 current FBS schools if I counted right. $2M more puts them ahead of Texas State, who I think some are floating as joining the PAC.

[JacksFan40]

And then for other sports, they'll be heading to....the Horizon League?

I think I'm done following all this realignment. Getting way too confusing. Nothing makes sense anymore.
I would assume the Horizon is a downgrade from the MAC across the board? Would show that football is king and everything else is secondary.

College football is an absolute mess with NIL, transfer portal, and realignment. At least we get a proper FBS playoff, would’ve been better 20 years ago but oh well.

[Cocky]

The Mountain West doesn't play games on Tuesday or Wednesday.

UMass is hosting a top-ten Missouri team this year and have welcomed Boston College and BYU in recent years.

No G5 team is hosting Penn State but UNC has repeatedly visited G5 foes such as App State, Georgia State, ODU or ECU. The Tar Heels visit Charlotte in 2025.

MWC plays on Friday which is worse than other mid week games. Wished we played all of our games on Tuesday, Wednesday or Thursday. Monday would not be too good because of the NFL but better than a Friday.

[Libertine]

I would assume the Horizon is a downgrade from the MAC across the board?

Actually, no. Football is a wash as the Horizon League doesn't sponsor it but, last year, the Horizon League was the #20 rated conference in MBB while the MAC was #23. Horizon was #17 in WBB while MAC was #18. In baseball, the MAC held the advantage at #22 over the Horizon at #24 but, obviously, not by much. Overall, the Horizon League would be a marginal to minimal upgrade over the MAC.

[Reign of Terrier]

Seeing these MWC rumored invites I can only think of the Thanos “You must be truly desperate “ memes

[Go Green]

A snowball has a better chance in hell than any FBS team ever visiting a FCS team again. The Army visit to Yale in 2014 was a super-special (and silly decision) to honor the Yale Bowl's 100th anniversary.

It was also during a time when wins were not easy to find for Army. Such is not the case anymore...

[uofmman1122]

The Sac State situation is very funny, to me.

"Hello Pac12! Yes, we understand we have negative fan support from our massive metro area, and currently interest is declining after the success of the previous few seasons, but we promise that if we invest millions and millions of dollars into our program (that we haven't done until now), the fans and media dollars will come flocking in!"

It comes off as incredibly desperate. Do they still plan on making facility upgrades if the Pac12 says no? What if no FBS offer appears?

[Reign of Terrier]

The Sac State situation is very funny, to me.

"Hello Pac12! Yes, we understand we have negative fan support from our massive metro area, and currently interest is declining after the success of the previous few seasons, but we promise that if we invest millions and millions of dollars into our program (that we haven't done until now), the fans and media dollars will come flocking in!"

It comes off as incredibly desperate. Do they still plan on making facility upgrades if the Pac12 says no? What if no FBS offer appears?

Both Davis and Sac State wanting to go FBS is funny for me for this + the facts that that area of the country almost certainly cares wayyyyy more about soccer. Nothing wrong with that. My fiance is from Napa and I asked her opinion of Davis/Sac State is “hot as fire.”

[SDFS]

The Sac State situation is very funny, to me.

"Hello Pac12! Yes, we understand we have negative fan support from our massive metro area, and currently interest is declining after the success of the previous few seasons, but we promise that if we invest millions and millions of dollars into our program (that we haven't done until now), the fans and media dollars will come flocking in!"

It comes off as incredibly desperate. Do they still plan on making facility upgrades if the Pac12 says no? What if no FBS offer appears?

I wouldn't say the Sac St. thing is desperate, more comical. Did anyone listen to the press conference talking about the Stadium plan? Here is what the AD and schools president said:

1) "We don't have rendering, but we hired a great consulting firm that worked on project X, Y and Z. And we will releasing those in a couple of weeks."
2) "We are lining up private donors, but we can't name anyone at this time. If you would like to be apart of this reach out to us"
3) "Stingers UP!! We are building a new HIVE!!" followed by some cheer/chant type of thing.

I am not sure these are serious people. And this was the school president. Again, I think if this is done right Sac St should be able to pull this off. But, I am not sure these are the right people. But, all it takes is one big donor to get things going. South Dakota State had Denny Sanford it took a middle of the road school DII program to the top of FCS.

[SDFS]

Both Davis and Sac State wanting to go FBS is funny for me for this + the facts that that area of the country almost certainly cares wayyyyy more about soccer. Nothing wrong with that. My fiance is from Napa and I asked her opinion of Davis/Sac State is “hot as fire.”

Davis seems more real to me - 40,000 students, located next to Sacramento, school profile, already have the base stadium in place to expand.

[caribbeanhen]

Davis seems more real to me - 40,000 students, located next to Sacramento, school profile, already have the base stadium in place to expand.

I've watched several UC Davis home games over the years, the stadium seems to have a real vibe too it or I should the crowd does

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I've watched several UC Davis home games over the years, the stadium seems to have a vibe too or I should the crowd

Lehigh played at UC Davis in 2019; I came away "reasonably" impressed with the crowd/facility. Their stadium is built in a similar manner as Goodman so it would be easily expandable. Granted, in its current state it's about half the size as Goodman. The institution itself clearly has the resources/means to make it work. However, I question Aggie Athletic culture and UC Davis's ability to navigate the political hurdles that exist in the UC System to make it a successful endeavor.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Sac State, Poly and Davis will be FBS sooner rather than later, as I've been literally saying for years. As others have mentioned, Davis is more than ready. Poly has deep pocketed donors and John Madden was an alum (and FBS whispers have been swirling around Poly for a decade or more). Sac State has been more recent, but they've been pretty successful lately in the Big Sky, and if Poly and Davis are going to FBS, they will not want to be the only Cali school in the Big Sky.

I can see why the Big Sky people are trying to piss on this. They need that Cali player pipeline desperately. Doesn't matter, though. This is a once-in-a-generation opportunity for Cali schools to associate with the Pac brand, and they will do what it takes. If they miss, whatever's left of the Mountain West will take them. Win/win.

[uofmman1122]

Sac State, Poly and Davis will be FBS sooner rather than later, as I've been literally saying for years. As others have mentioned, Davis is more than ready. Poly has deep pocketed donors and John Madden was an alum (and FBS whispers have been swirling around Poly for a decade or more). Sac State has been more recent, but they've been pretty successful lately in the Big Sky, and if Poly and Davis are going to FBS, they will not want to be the only Cali school in the Big Sky.

I can see why the Big Sky people are trying to piss on this. They need that Cali player pipeline desperately. Doesn't matter, though. This is a once-in-a-generation opportunity for Cali schools to associate with the Pac brand, and they will do what it takes. If they miss, whatever's left of the Mountain West will take them. Win/win.
lmao we've been getting players from California just fine since well before any of those teams were in the Big Sky.

Even if they all jumped, they'd all be bottom feeder FBS schools in perpetuity.

Which is precisely why I don't think the MWC, and especially the Pac-12 want anything to do with them. They will do whatever it takes to not take a single FCS school.

[Reign of Terrier]

I know very little about recruiting or California. But pretty much everyone out west recruits California and I'm pretty sure there's more recruits than D1 football teams out there, so it shouldn't change recruiting that much.

I honestly don't understand the conventional wisdom of "plays in the same conference=easier to recruit" because it's been around forever at FBS when discussing conference realignment and it hasn't been elaborated upon. I think it's based on anachronistic assumptions about media deals

[Sitting Bull]

Seems like the focus on potential/possible shifts are now coming from FCS members that don’t have a lot of postseason history. I don’t recall ever hearing much of UC Davis, Cal Poly or Tarleton State in the playoffs or as conference heavyweights. At least not in any consistent fashion.

Sacramento State has been a more recent playoff participant. I think they are the most likely to feel a gap. Hard to believe a school of 31,000 playing FCS football.

Looking at the facilities and support numbers for Cal Davis and Cal Poly, they just seem a stretch for FBS - but you could say same about Kennesaw and Sam Houston.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I know very little about recruiting or California. But pretty much everyone out west recruits California and I'm pretty sure there's more recruits than D1 football teams out there, so it shouldn't change recruiting that much.

I honestly don't understand the conventional wisdom of "plays in the same conference=easier to recruit" because it's been around forever at FBS when discussing conference realignment and it hasn't been elaborated upon. I think it's based on anachronistic assumptions about media deals

It absolutely makes a difference, make zero mistake about it. "Grandma can come out and see me when we play Sacramento State" is a powerful recruiting tool.

[MSUBobcat]

It absolutely makes a difference, make zero mistake about it. "Grandma can come out and see me when we play Sacramento State" is a powerful recruiting tool.

I don't think we care if they leave as much as you might think. For one... they can have Poly (but they won't take them). They've been on a decline for about a decade. Their last winning season was 2016 and they proceeded to LOSE to PFL San Diego in the 1st round of the playoffs. If Davis and Sac DO jump, they damn well better take Poly too.

On the recruiting front, MSU, for one, recruits more heavily out of TX and the PNW than California. We have only 10 players from Cali and only 1 is from northern Cali. The others are from the L.A. area or south, which makes it a 400ish mile, 6 hour drive (or more) for grandma to go to a game @ Sacramento/Davis. One must also remember that the BSC is 12 teams, which means we play at just 1 of the 3 Cali schools per year, so in any given 4 year stretch, we go to northern Cali (Davis or Sac) 2x and southern Cali (Poly) just once. Hopefully lil Johnny is a starter in the 1 year granny can see him play @ Poly.

[uofmman1122]

I don't think we care if they leave as much as you might think. For one... they can have Poly (but they won't take them). They've been on a decline for about a decade. Their last winning season was 2016 and they proceeded to LOSE to PFL San Diego in the 1st round of the playoffs. If Davis and Sac DO jump, they damn well better take Poly too.

On the recruiting front, MSU, for one, recruits more heavily out of TX and the PNW than California. We have only 10 players from Cali and only 1 is from northern Cali. The others are from the L.A. area or south, which makes it a 400ish mile, 6 hour drive (or more) for grandma to go to a game @ Sacramento/Davis. One must also remember that the BSC is 12 teams, which means we play at just 1 of the 3 Cali schools per year, so in any given 4 year stretch, we go to northern Cali (Davis or Sac) 2x and southern Cali (Poly) just once. Hopefully lil Johnny is a starter in the 1 year granny can see him play @ Poly.
He's just starting at the conclusion he made up that we'll be sad to see the California schools go (we won't) and working backwards to find a reason justifying it.

[UNHWildcat18]

Looks like Texas State might be headed to the MW. Wonder if the Sunbelt goes after
A)C-USA school or
B) an FCS program.

[Keeper]

Looks like Texas State might be headed to the MW. Wonder if the Sunbelt goes after
A)C-USA school or
B) an FCS program.

If I was the commish, I would scoop up three ! Liberty, WKU, Sam Houston.

clock ticking again on C-USA (EKU, Chatty, Tarleton ?)

[BlueGoldAg]

Sacramento State is moving fast on their desire to get into the PAC12 or MWC. They just raised $35 million in for NIL funds in less than 24 hours and they're shooting for $50 million!

https://www.on3.com/nil/news/sacramento-state-hornets-pac-12-committee-raises-35-million-nil-funds/

[smilo]

If I was the commish, I would scoop up three ! Liberty, WKU, Sam Houston.

clock ticking again on C-USA (EKU, Chatty, Tarleton ?)

I am pretty confident WKU is not in the picture and absolutely certain Liberty is not.

Sam Houston is not quite an upgrade over Texas State but definitely feels like a better fit. The Sun Belt isn't desperate enough, but Chattanooga would be a better fit than MTSU. Hope C-USA upgrades them and then you can think about that addition long term if FBS is successful.

[Reign of Terrier]

Thing to remember about the sun belt is that they have east-west divisions, and they would probably go for a team out west in the Texas-ish area to smooth out travel arrangements.

[JacksFan40]

Thing to remember about the sun belt is that they have east-west divisions, and they would probably go for a team out west in the Texas-ish area to smooth out travel arrangements.
Texas State is already the outlier in the SBC, maybe they just avoid Texas altogether, Tarleton or Sam Houston would be the only logical choices from Texas anyways. Could open the door for someone like LA Tech or JSU to get in, or maybe they decide to get into the Florida market with FIU, which would give them the Miami market (although the SBC doesn’t seem concerned with market size). Could also see them grab 3 schools and go to 16.

I don’t see the SBC reaching down to FCS, but C-USA will probably need to backfill again which will obviously come from the FCS.

[JacksFan40]

Pete Thamel reporting on X that UTEP is expected to join the MWC soon. Not surprising, next to NMSU they are the best geographical fit of existing FBS teams.

So begins the poaching of C-USA once again and also begins C-USA poaching more FCS schools.

[wapiti]

I am pretty confident WKU is not in the picture and absolutely certain Liberty is not.

Sam Houston is not quite an upgrade over Texas State but definitely feels like a better fit. The Sun Belt isn't desperate enough, but Chattanooga would be a better fit than MTSU. Hope C-USA upgrades them and then you can think about that addition long term if FBS is successful.

Liberty would be a great addition.

[KnightoftheRedFlash]

Liberty would be a great addition.

The Sun Belt schools are scared of Liberty. The school has unlimited funds while they are all third-tier state schools.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

This is just me, but any conference looking at UTEP for any reason smacks of desperation.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Would really be full circle if WKU came back to the Sun Belt. Western Kentucky was actually a long-time member of the Sun Belt before the league even had football. WKU was their flagship basketball program and had some of their best years under head coach Ralph Willard (Holy Cross '67) who would later coach Pitt, Holy Cross and Louisville, the latter as interim while Pitino was suspended. Soon after Western Kentucky won the 2003 I-AA national championship as a member of the Gateway Conference, they upgraded football to I-A and joined the Sun Belt where they were already full-time members. The Sun Belt was a fledgling I-A conference then, having morphed out of the Big West around 2000 or 2001. It's lone bowl tie-in was sending the league champ to the New Orleans Bowl at the Superdome. From 2005-2015 or so, the Sun Belt and C-USA almost seemed to have a promotion-relegation relationship where if you did well in the Sun Belt, you got invited to "upgrade" to Conference USA. Western Kentucky and Middle Tennessee were amongst these schools. Now, you look at the Sun Belt, and it's almost like both would be perfect fits for what the league ultimately became (more so WKU). I'm sure Old Dominion would love to have another basketball school in the league with them.

[NY Crusader 2010]

This is just me, but any conference looking at UTEP for any reason smacks of desperation.

I feel like TU Owl will be in complete disagreement on this one!

[NY Crusader 2010]

Pete Thamel reporting on X that UTEP is expected to join the MWC soon. Not surprising, next to NMSU they are the best geographical fit of existing FBS teams.

So begins the poaching of C-USA once again and also begins C-USA poaching more FCS schools.

Next up....Tarleton? I know the Dakota schools aren't budging on that one.

[caribbeanhen]

posted by Topstraight on gohens, a WKU Fan who seems to follow the shakedown very closely

That was a very good win for CUSA over the SBC by SH. We just need some more time to let some of these CUSA schools develop.

Unfortunately--Greed, Egos, and stubbornness in the MW/PAC are going to hurt CUSA and could easily affect the SBC and MAC--creating even more dominoes.

Problem for CUSA is--there are NO good plausible fcs schools left--not to mention other problems with adding move-ups.

I'm convinced DELAWARE and Mo St. were the Last two "A" grade additions.

(Dakotas and Montanas not happening in the near future--if ever)

[Sitting Bull]

posted by Topstraight on gohens, a WKU Fan who seems to follow the shakedown very closely

That was a very good win for CUSA over the SBC by SH. We just need some more time to let some of these CUSA schools develop.

Unfortunately--Greed, Egos, and stubbornness in the MW/PAC are going to hurt CUSA and could easily affect the SBC and MAC--creating even more dominoes.

Problem for CUSA is--there are NO good plausible fcs schools left--not to mention other problems with adding move-ups.

I'm convinced DELAWARE and Mo St. were the Last two "A" grade additions.

(Dakotas and Montanas not happening in the near future--if ever)

You’re talking about a league that recruited Kennesaw and tried to get Austin Peay. Since when were they grading. I wouldn’t be surprised if they pulled in a D2 team.

Besides, theres no one more grade A in FCS than Montana in my view. When you’re already selling out a 25,000 seat stadium, playing local rivals and competing for national championships, what’s the point.

[Reign of Terrier]

I will once again say (not sure if I have said this on AGS, but have other places) : I just do not believe that there is not mutual interest from the Dakotas/Montanas and at least one FBS conference. I mean, sure, there's definitely logistical challenges, but I just don't think anyone can look at NDSU and say "ah no they aren't good enough as a program" and similarly I just don't believe these fanbases are content.

[Libertine]

This is just me, but any conference looking at UTEP for any reason smacks of desperation.

Desperation is kind of where they are though. The PAC-?? and MWC are both well past the point of valuing institutional dignity over survival.

[Sitting Bull]

Looks like UTEP to MW is a done deal.

[POD Knows]

Looks like UTEP to MW is a done deal.
And Tarleton is next up, what a joke.

[Go Green]

Gonzaga to Pac-12 now.

They still need an eighth member in football.

[Professor Chaos]

BREAKING: DeVry University-Texas announces move to D1 - immediately garners 3 FBS conference invites.

[ST_Lawson]

And Tarleton is next up, what a joke.

That one is pretty surprising to me. I would have expected maybe the Montana schools to the MWC and Tarleton to CUSA to replace UTEP.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Gonzaga to Pac-12 now.

They still need an eighth member in football.

And next up...drum roll...Grand Canyon.

St. Mary's likely to follow Gonzaga as well.

[Laker]

It is official.

gozags.com/news/2024/10/1/gonzaga-athletics-gonzaga-accepts-invitation-to-join-pac-12-conference.aspx (https://gozags.com/news/2024/10/1/gonzaga-athletics-gonzaga-accepts-invitation-to-join-pac-12-conference.aspx)

[Libertine]

And next up...drum roll...Grand Canyon.


I'm really curious to see the institutional reaction to this idea. GCU is the only for-profit university in NCAA D1, (I know, I know...insert jokes about non-profit SEC schools raking in millions yadda yadda yadda) and it will be interesting to see what level of academic piety from the rest of the PAC-?? comes into play here.

[JacksFan40]

Gonzaga to Pac-12 now.

They still need an eighth member in football.
They’d been flirting with UConn as a football only member. Not sure if that’s still going on.

[JacksFan40]

I'm really curious to see the institutional reaction to this idea. GCU is the only for-profit university in NCAA D1, (I know, I know...insert jokes about non-profit SEC schools raking in millions yadda yadda yadda) and it will be interesting to see what level of academic piety from the rest of the PAC-?? comes into play here.
With Stanford and Cal gone I don’t think the PAC will be as snobby about academics.

[Outsider1]

With Stanford and Cal gone I don’t think the PAC will be as snobby about academics.


At this point, I don't think the Pac can be snobby about anything...

[POD Knows]

At this point, I don't think the Pac can be snobby about anything...
When are you guys moving up, seems like just being in TX is the only real requirement for a move to FBS. Houston Christian got a win this past week, maybe they are next.

[Go Green]

With Stanford and Cal gone I don’t think the PAC will be as snobby about academics.

And the Pac-12's pursuing GCU will all but guarantee that Stanford and Cal never return.

[Go Green]

They’d been flirting with UConn as a football only member. Not sure if that’s still going on.

That could work. If Stanford and Cal can travel cross-country every other week, no reason why UConn can't either...

[MSUBobcat]

BREAKING: DeVry University-Texas announces move to D1 - immediately garners 3 FBS conference invites.

But that media market tho.....

I've also been informed that having a member in a fertile recruiting ground helps the other members recruit there also. Cuz grandma.....

[RahRahRabbits]

And Tarleton is next up, what a joke.

If Tarleton State were to actually move up, would they be the fastest DII to FBS transition ever? Of course, that is excluding new football programs, ones originally impacted by the (then new) Dayton Rule, or ones impacted by the major realignment moves in the early 80s (ex - MAC)... A true DII to FBS move.

Troy made the move in around 9 years. South Florida, Charlotte, Akron, UTSA, Old Dominion, Georgia State, and South Alabama were all newly established programs. UAB and UCF were Dayton Ruled being forced to move from DIII to D1, both with short stints in the I-AA/FCS ranks prior to going 1-A/FBS.

Potentially interesting article full of reminders for the realignment moves in the 80s. Some of you people lived it and remember it vividly. I'm not one of those...
https://i.postimg.cc/pXvC8BfW/Screenshot-2024-10-01-112826.png

[taper]

They’d been flirting with UConn as a football only member. Not sure if that’s still going on.

Associate members don't count towards the 8 full member FBS minimum.

[Outsider1]

When are you guys moving up, seems like just being in TX is the only real requirement for a move to FBS. Houston Christian got a win this past week, maybe they are next.

I don't think we really want to.

[Go Green]

If Tarleton State were to actually move up, would they be the fastest DII to FBS transition ever? Of course, that is excluding new football programs, ones originally impacted by the (then new) Dayton Rule, or ones impacted by the major realignment moves in the early 80s (ex - MAC)... A true DII to FBS move.

Troy made the move in around 9 years. South Florida, Charlotte, Akron, UTSA, Old Dominion, Georgia State, and South Alabama were all newly established programs. UAB and UCF were Dayton Ruled being forced to move from DIII to D1, both with short stints in the I-AA/FCS ranks prior to going 1-A/FBS.

Potentially interesting article full of reminders for the realignment moves in the 80s. Some of you people lived it and remember it vividly. I'm not one of those...
https://i.postimg.cc/pXvC8BfW/Screenshot-2024-10-01-112826.png

I can't tell you how many Harvard and Penn alums are convinced that they voluntarily dropped down to I-AA in 1982.

They were forced. Yale is the only Ivy who could have remained in I-A, but choose to stick with their Ivy brethren.

[JacksFan40]

Associate members don't count towards the 8 full member FBS minimum.
UConn would likely be to just balance the numbers if needed. Sounds like the PAC is making another push for the AAC schools, specifically Memphis. Texas State-MWC talks have stalled out which leads me to believe they are waiting to see what Memphis does. If they join the PAC, Texas State is one of the first in line for the AAC, but if Memphis stays in the AAC that could reopen the door for Texas State into the PAC. Either scenario is an improvement over the MWC.

[Libertine]

Texas State has reportedly informed the Sun Belt that the Bobcats aren't going to the Mountain West. PAC-7.5 is still in play for them, however.

https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/41557970/texas-state-talks-mountain-west-stall-sources-say

[Reign of Terrier]

Approach the Dakota States and Montanas you cowards

[Sitting Bull]

Approach the Dakota States and Montanas you cowards

How do you know they haven’t. Maybe they said no. Montana has rejected several previous offers. This assumption that everyone automatically wants to jump in the G5 pool is ridiculous. Do you really think Kennesaw was on the top of the CUSA poachers list?

[Libertine]

Do you really think Kennesaw was on the top of the CUSA poachers list?

Yes, actually. Kennesaw State has 35,000+ undergrads across two campuses on the northwest (read: more affluent) side of the Greater Atlanta metroplex. Remember that conference realignment in the modern age revolves around money and being able to market your product to the greatest possible number of people. If a conference were going to dip into the FCS ranks for membership, speaking strictly from a market / demographic / resource perspective, picking up KSU would have been a no-brainer.

[caribbeanhen]

Approach the Dakota States and Montanas you cowards

Personally, and just looking at it from a football standpoint, it makes perfect sense

but you have people like this guy, who really are down in the weeds on what drives it, making comments like this, I'm saying I think this guy might know something

Topstraight

I'm convinced DELAWARE and Mo St. were the Last two "A" grade additions.

(Dakotas and Montanas not happening in the near future--if ever)

[Sitting Bull]

Yes, actually. Kennesaw State has 35,000+ undergrads across two campuses on the northwest (read: more affluent) side of the Greater Atlanta metroplex. Remember that conference realignment in the modern age revolves around money and being able to market your product to the greatest possible number of people. If a conference were going to dip into the FCS ranks for membership, speaking strictly from a market / demographic / resource perspective, picking up KSU would have been a no-brainer.

To your point, that’s why I think Sacramento State is the most likely to make a move from FCS, not the more remote and established Big Sky teams. They appear to have the money, location and drive. But whoever it might be, the financial impact of FBS and NIL I think is somewhat an unknown and I think heightens the risk for some schools. No question, it is becoming a huge financial bet these days to move, much more so than a few years ago.

I know this is a fans board and none of us really have any money on the line with realignment opinions and decisions. But if you’re actually involved as a CFO or have any serious financial responsibility within a university, there are some serious risks you have to consider these days.

[Sitting Bull]

Personally, and just looking at it from a football standpoint, it makes perfect sense

but you have people like this guy, who really are down in the weeds on what drives it, making comments like this, I'm saying I think this guy might know something

Topstraight

I'm convinced DELAWARE and Mo St. were the Last two "A" grade additions.

(Dakotas and Montanas not happening in the near future--if ever)

Maybe so - or it could be he/she is just trying to rationalize the instability of where CUSA (and their school) is right now. There’s a similar poster from UMass who has been spinning for about 20 years. There’s no glue there with CUSA. Any one of those members would move in a heartbeat if they could. What irritates me is the condescending attitude that drips from this mindset, as if FCS is now suddenly so beneath them. When you see where they actually parked themselves, it is actually a bit humorous.

[Go Green]

Associate members don't count towards the 8 full member FBS minimum.

This appears to be correct.

I'd be curious to know if there is a point to the rule, or if its simply an anachronism that was created before associate membership was a thing.

I mean, who cares if UConn is a football only member in the Pac-12 if Gonzaga will be the eighth team competition for the rest of the sports?

[MR. CHICKEN]

Maybe so - or it could be he/she is just trying to rationalize the instability of where CUSA (and their school) is right now. There’s a similar poster from UMass who has been spinning for about 20 years. There’s no glue there with CUSA. Any one of those members would move in a heartbeat if they could. What irritates me is the condescending attitude that drips from this mindset, as if FCS is now suddenly so beneath them. When you see where they actually parked themselves, it is actually a bit humorous.


....HENS INCLUDED......WE'VE BEEN TELLIN' YA........DELAWARE IS USIN' CUSA AS UH SPRINGBOARD ALL ALONG............BRAWK!

....YOUSE GET DUH CONDESCENDIN' 'TUDE.......'CAUSE YOUSE GAVE US DUH CONDESCENDIN' 'TUDE........AWK!

....ps....WE ALL KNOW KENNESAW SUCKS.......TEMPORAIRILY......ALA GA. STATE....SO THANKY FO' CONTINUED REMINDERS......xrolleyesx......NO ONES LAUGHIN' AT SAMMY ANYMORE....xcoolx....BRAWK-A DOODLE-DOO!

[Libertine]

I know this is a fans board and none of us really have any money on the line with realignment opinions and decisions. But if you’re actually involved as a CFO or have any serious financial responsibility within a university, there are some serious risks you have to consider these days.

Oh, absolutely correct. Just because a school is in a desirable market is no guarantee that the school can actually be marketed, either due to external circumstances or just poor leadership.

In 2012, the MAC snagged UMass from FCS thinking they were planting the conference flag in Boston when, in reality, UMass has next to zero pull in that city. Though the world is different, the MAC is poised to make the same mistake again in 2025. That's less of going back to a dry well and more of staring over the edge of a sinkhole.

Going back to Kennesaw, on paper they're a school that should be adequately resourced and an excellent draw in every sport, but they aren't due to some questionable policies and decision-making.

[Sitting Bull]

....HENS INCLUDED......WE'VE BEEN TELLIN' YA........DELAWARE IS USIN' CUSA AS UH SPRINGBOARD ALL ALONG............BRAWK!

....YOUSE GET DUH CONDESCENDIN' 'TUDE.......'CAUSE YOUSE GAVE US DUH CONDESCENDIN' 'TUDE........AWK!

....ps....WE ALL KNOW KENNESAW SUCKS.......TEMPORAIRILY......ALA GA. STATE....SO THANKY FO' CONTINUED REMINDERS......xrolleyesx......NO ONES LAUGHIN' AT SAMMY ANYMORE....xcoolx....BRAWK-A DOODLE-DOO!

Oh please, Mr. C. I was actually specifically referring to the Topstraight comment (though there’s plenty of the general mindset at UD and it’s not new). You admit yourself that you (UD) would move in a heartbeat from CUSA so why get so ruffled when people point out the absurdity of the league. It’s not a personal throw on you.

[uofmman1122]

I can only speak as a Montana fan, but I don't see us moving up in the near future unless the G5 membership rules are changed. We'd need to get into a "premier" G5 conference that gets significant TV money in addition to drastically raising athletic fees and increase state funding. Perhaps everything will completely unravel soon, and the rules might be changed, but until then, as long as the current system is in place, I don't see us moving anywhere.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

This appears to be correct.

I'd be curious to know if there is a point to the rule, or if its simply an anachronism that was created before associate membership was a thing.

I mean, who cares if UConn is a football only member in the Pac-12 if Gonzaga will be the eighth team competition for the rest of the sports?

If there is one solitary thing that I learned in my deep dive into college football history in the 60s 70s and 80s is that everything you think about modern collegiate athletics vis a vis divisions and subdivisions is completely subjective and anachronistic and almost always makes no academic or even athletic sense. Conferences at least attempted to convene regionally or academically throughout history, but when the largest conferences and programs colluded together in the 1970s and 1980s to try and wrestle TV away from the NCAA, they came up with completely subjective, expensive criteria that made no sense that forced a slew of schools out of the Division I basketball tournament then further exiled a good hunk of Division I football to Division I-AA. Seen in that light, Stanford/Cal in the ACC and UConn a serious contender for the Pac-X makes sense in that even splitting into Divisions in 1977 didn't make complete sense, and sense has been bleeding from college athletics ever since, leading to the madness we have today.

[bonarae]

From another thread... UC Davis has shut the door on moving up, for the meantime.

[Sitting Bull]

Interesting article out of the Shenandoah Valley press today following JMUs loss last night at UL Monroe. The subject is obviously finances as the article zeroed in on the potential $s lost in last nights loss, sinking any chance of JMU getting the G5 slot in the CFP.

Couple of other things that are highlighted in the piece:
*JMU running a $7M operational deficit
*the comparison to UVA down the road

I think JMU is one of the best success stories on moving up. They were ready and waited for a great home and got it. So this isn’t meant to demean G5 rather share the difficulties even the best in the group is dealing with.

****
You get $3 million just for getting that CFP invite, and for a program that ran a $7 million operating deficit in 2022, the most recent year for which we have available numbers to work with, man.

JMU Athletics will be getting $900,000 more from the Sun Belt for the next three years beginning this year, so that knocks down the deficit a sliver, but even with that factored in, JMU Football still loses money if it makes the CFP this year, but there’s the possibility of pulling a 12-5 upset in the first round – not likely, but it’s possible – that could bring in another $3.5 million.

That’s the sad reality of the business of college football in the Group of 5 – that it takes getting an invite to the CFP and pulling an upset to turn a profit.

Meanwhile, Virginia, over in the ACC, coming off a pair of three-win seasons, turns a $20 million profit with half-empty stadiums.

No, JMU fans, life ain’t fair.
****

[DFW HOYA]

Is the deficit inclusive of the student fees?

[TribeNomad1]

Interesting article out of the Shenandoah Valley press today following JMUs loss last night at UL Monroe. The subject is obviously finances as the article zeroed in on the potential $s lost in last nights loss, sinking any chance of JMU getting the G5 slot in the CFP.

Couple of other things that are highlighted in the piece:
*JMU running a $7M operational deficit
*the comparison to UVA down the road

I think JMU is one of the best success stories on moving up. They were ready and waited for a great home and got it. So this isn’t meant to demean G5 rather share the difficulties even the best in the group is dealing with.

****
You get $3 million just for getting that CFP invite, and for a program that ran a $7 million operating deficit in 2022, the most recent year for which we have available numbers to work with, man.

JMU Athletics will be getting $900,000 more from the Sun Belt for the next three years beginning this year, so that knocks down the deficit a sliver, but even with that factored in, JMU Football still loses money if it makes the CFP this year, but there’s the possibility of pulling a 12-5 upset in the first round – not likely, but it’s possible – that could bring in another $3.5 million.

That’s the sad reality of the business of college football in the Group of 5 – that it takes getting an invite to the CFP and pulling an upset to turn a profit.

Meanwhile, Virginia, over in the ACC, coming off a pair of three-win seasons, turns a $20 million profit with half-empty stadiums.

No, JMU fans, life ain’t fair.
****


I have kids at both schools, was in Charlottesville yesterday, and watched a great game. Fan support overall always pretty tepid for football at UVa, but decent yesterday. Student turnout for Noon game not so good, and it was sunny and warm, many, many gone by second half, which was the exciting part of the game. Was in Harrisonburg last weekend, packed stadium as usual, high energy, even though game a rout.

JMU always with little man syndrome in state, but credit them for support and rabid fan base. UVa the monied group, obviously much loftier reputation etc......are never going to recognize JMU as peer.

I enjoyed tailgating at both places, both game days with great weather and lots of fun. I need a weekend off!

[NY Crusader 2010]

They’d been flirting with UConn as a football only member. Not sure if that’s still going on.

Those discussions fizzled out a couple months back. And it wasn't as a football-only member. Big 12 and UConn were in talks about joining in all sports EXCEPT football. Football membership would have been later on if UConn met certain requirements that the Big 12 asked, one of which I'm sure would be an on-campus stadium.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Those discussions fizzled out a couple months back. And it wasn't as a football-only member. Big 12 and UConn were in talks about joining in all sports EXCEPT football. Football membership would have been later on if UConn met certain requirements that the Big 12 asked, one of which I'm sure would be an on-campus stadium.

I'm not sure how much validity there is to this assertion given the fact I have not heard any similar stipulations regarding UConn playing basketball games at the XL Center in Hartford. While playing off campus is usually to the detriment of the program (substandard environment, lease negotiations, logistics, etc), UConn splitting hoops games between the XL (Civic) Center and Gampel is tradition! It's uniquely cool! The Huskies are the only program, because of the habitation dynamics of the state of Connecticut, that can pull off such an arrangement. I know they've been wanting to replace the XL Center for years but nothing seems on the horizon. The facility is dated, yet, it's an awesome place to simply watch a game! It has one of the steepest seating bowls I've seen in person. I have to imagine it rivals Assembly Hall at Indiana?

Rentschler Field would likely need a massive overhaul to meet Big 12 standards. The template is there but the infrastructure is very bare-bones ala UCF's "Bounce House". Hence, this is why UCF is currently in the process of renovating their digs.

[Professor Chaos]

This is the most well-connected resource I've seen floating any NDSU to FBS rumors:

https://twitter.com/Brett_McMurphy/status/1854175932073799987

[caribbeanhen]

This is the most well-connected resource I've seen floating any NDSU to FBS rumors:

https://twitter.com/Brett_McMurphy/status/1854175932073799987

https://herosports.com/fcs-notebook-mountain-west-reportedly-considering-adding-ndsu-bzbz/

Mountain West Reportedly Considering Adding NDSUThe tweet that many in Fargo and many around the FCS were waiting for has happened. Brett McMurphy reports (https://twitter.com/Brett_McMurphy/status/1854175932073799987)that the Mountain West is considering adding FCS power North Dakota State.

[wcugrad95]

How many schools does the MWC need to add? Seems to me the article states in 2026 they will have 8 football playing schools (1 non-football), and it says they are trying to get to 9 football schools which makes scheduling straightforward. But I could see them going after more than just NDSU. I know there were lots of rumors that Air Force might go to the AAC to join Army and Navy, but they reaffirmed their committment. I could still see them leaving and the Mountain West would need at least 2.

Obviously I have no clue, but as an outsider it would seem like the top football schools in the Dakotas and Montana might want to go somewhere together? Maybe not all 4 in a package, but they'd want a partner in the move. Would NDSU go in this scenario without SDSU (and/or UND and USD)?

And of course the conference has to want 2 or more of them, so it is all just wild.

[MSUBobcat]

How many schools does the MWC need to add? Seems to me the article states in 2026 they will have 8 football playing schools (1 non-football), and it says they are trying to get to 9 football schools which makes scheduling straightforward. But I could see them going after more than just NDSU. I know there were lots of rumors that Air Force might go to the AAC to join Army and Navy, but they reaffirmed their committment. I could still see them leaving and the Mountain West would need at least 2.

Obviously I have no clue, but as an outsider it would seem like the top football schools in the Dakotas and Montana might want to go somewhere together? Maybe not all 4 in a package, but they'd want a partner in the move. Would NDSU go in this scenario without SDSU (and/or UND and USD)?

And of course the conference has to want 2 or more of them, so it is all just wild.

I would think at least 12 is optimal for an FBS conference. 9 works great for a true round-robin against all conference teams + 3 OOC (4 in a 12-game season), but all other conferences have a conference championship game. I wouldn't think the MWC, which currently has one, would want to give it up unless it just could not get to 12.

[wcugrad95]

My thoughts, too. Which could open the door for more of the schools I mentioned as more of a package deal.

[NY Crusader 2010]

I would think at least 12 is optimal for an FBS conference. 9 works great for a true round-robin against all conference teams + 3 OOC (4 in a 12-game season), but all other conferences have a conference championship game. I wouldn't think the MWC, which currently has one, would want to give it up unless it just could not get to 12.

You also don't need 12 teams anymore to be able to have a championship game. This rule got changed a few years back. The real reason to expand to 12 and beyond now is to build up enough a buffer so that if your league gets poached, the cupboard isn't completely empty.

[Libertine]

I think 12 is the ideal maximum number in terms of scheduling, maintaining consistent rivalries, and conducting reasonable conference tournaments in non-football sports. Larger than that, all of the things I mentioned start to get unwieldy and progressively more difficult to put together with any sense of fairness and consistency from one year to the next.

[wcugrad95]

Of course now a lot of the leagues have gone back away from divisions. That also doesn't make sense to me. With 12 teams and two 6-team divisions, you can play the 5 plus rotate through the other side and play 3 each year so you face all teams over every 2 seasons. I know that is not what this conversation is about, but at the higher levels (do we still call it FBS???) the 9-team league with true round-robin makes less sense than it does say in the SOCON where we seem to want to keep that because we are happy with the teams we have.

So yeah - I find it hard to believe the Mountain West really wants to only​ get to 9 football schools.

[jajfitz]

Of course now a lot of the leagues have gone back away from divisions. That also doesn't make sense to me. With 12 teams and two 6-team divisions, you can play the 5 plus rotate through the other side and play 3 each year so you face all teams over every 2 seasons. I know that is not what this conversation is about, but at the higher levels (do we still call it FBS???) the 9-team league with true round-robin makes less sense than it does say in the SOCON where we seem to want to keep that because we are happy with the teams we have.

So yeah - I find it hard to believe the Mountain West really wants to only​ get to 9 football schools.

Just this week I have seen 5-6 articles about FBS conferences possibly having multiple schools tying at the top and creating a headache deciding who plays for the conference championship.

[MSUBobcat]

Just this week I have seen 5-6 articles about FBS conferences possibly having multiple schools tying at the top and creating a headache deciding who plays for the conference championship.

What's the headache? Turn to the ol' conference tiebreaker rules, apply them in order until you have your standings tie broken. It's not like ties at the top of conference standings is a new thing. If the conference nitwits in charge need help, refer them to this ESPN article (https://www.espn.com.au/college-football/story/_/id/42082434/what-fbs-college-football-conference-tiebreaker-rules), I guess.

[Professor Chaos]

What's the headache? Turn to the ol' conference tiebreaker rules, apply them in order until you have your standings tie broken. It's not like ties at the top of conference standings is a new thing. If the conference nitwits in charge need help, refer them to this ESPN article (https://www.espn.com.au/college-football/story/_/id/42082434/what-fbs-college-football-conference-tiebreaker-rules), I guess.
When there's 16-18 teams in a conference like the P4 all have with no divisions have the tie breakers get really convoluted really quickly. I understand how they'd rather have the top 2 play each other in the championship game instead of going to divisions and having the top team in each division play for the championship but there's problems with that also when unbalanced schedules leads to really convoluted tie breakers.

I'd prefer divisions if I were them - at least that way you can play every team in your division and your fate it is your own hands. Sooner or later someone in these super leagues is going to be left out of the conference title game for a team they beat head-to-head that has the same conference record as them due to having 3 or more teams involved in the tie breakers.

[MSUBobcat]

When there's 16-18 teams in a conference like the P4 all have with no divisions have the tie breakers get really convoluted really quickly. I understand how they'd rather have the top 2 play each other in the championship game instead of going to divisions and having the top team in each division play for the championship but there's problems with that also when unbalanced schedules leads to really convoluted tie breakers.

I'd prefer divisions if I were them - at least that way you can play every team in your division and your fate it is your own hands. Sooner or later someone in these super leagues is going to be left out of the conference title game for a team they beat head-to-head that has the same conference record as them due to having 3 or more teams involved in the tie breakers.

Agree that divisions would be preferred. Disagree that the tiebreakers are convoluted. If this, then that. If that, then them. Pretty straightforward as to the process. Would I be a bit upset if I was left out because of a draw administered by the ACC Commissioner (6th tiebreaker for the ACC)? Absolutely. But the process itself isn't a complicated one, after it has been decided upon. It's not like we're splitting atoms or doing rocket surgery. It's a flow chart.