Phillies laying foundation for blowing apart???

[ngineer]

I'm hearing some not so good things about the Phillies negotiations with Ryan Howard, who has filed for arbitration. Howard has demanded $10M and the Phillies have countered with $7M. Howard has said he will not 'split the difference' or take less than the $10M. The Phils pissed off Rolen a number of years ago by doing the same thing, because in the arb proceedings, to 'justify' their lowball offer, they have to put on 'evidence' against their own player, which despite the "everyone knows this is business" mentality, still results in bad feelings...resulting in Howard leaving for free agency the following year.
Based on his productivity over the past two years, he'd easily get $12-13M on the open market. The fact that he's only played 2+ years is ridiculous. He's hit more homers and drove in more runs than anyone during this time frame...plus he missed three weeks this past year.
I'm afraid the 'braintrust' is doing their usual penny-pinching that will undermine what is set to be a heck of a lineup for the next 5-7 years.xsmhx xsmhx xsmhx xsmhx xsmhx

[GannonFan]

Rolen was a different story - he never had numbers anywhere near Howard's and as his worn out welcome in St. Louis showed, Rolen was really a rotten guy to deal with. Heck, his souring on the Phils had more to do with Dallas Green ripping him for being an underacheiver than it did the Phils spending money.

With that said, the Phils are crazy not to be taking care of Howard - not paying him when he wasn't arbitration-eligible was one thing, but keeping that track when he is eligible for arbitration is just asinine. The Phils could very well win the arbitration case (I don't think they've lost one for quite some time) but that won't keep you warm and cozy at night in a few years when Howard leaves Philly when he becomes a free agent.

[Cleets]

It's amazing to me that this thread (has just sat around) with no action...
it's (frankly) fascinating for a baseball slash Money-ball guy like me to read your thoughts and feel your anguish and then see no activity... (posting wise)

so I will indulge myself at everybody's expense...

If indeed the Philly's are on the real path to success (moneyball sucess) spend less win more and play the game of math + statistics + numbers... we can make quite a few resolute observations from their actions regarding Howard...

According to popular oligarchy: He's one dimensional
Compare him to David Américo Ortiz Arias or the Red sox "Big Papi" who happens to have a better fielding percentage and has more games played at first base... yet is also regarded as "one dimensional player fodder" by the National League standard.. Yes he is = mostly worthless yet Ortiz Wins games at a pitcher like pecentage.. which can normally never be applied to one dimensional players and certianly not the DH.. yet Howard who is clearly inferior is "God Like" because he "National League home grown Fudge" Yet stands like a slab of concrete & meat at first base... Therefore = he is good.. and Ortiz is somehow inferior... never mind results + don't let those pesky things get in the way of MLB emotions...

Thus = Pay Howard more money for lesser or same results... Yet they are almost the same guy at the plate.. David just has more experience and more late innings results ... and Rings

Therefore + the Phillys are correct = Howard $7M to $9M is fair..(It's more than Ortiz got paid last year) Just one year ago David Ortiz made $6.5 Million and he squashed Howard in the all important "what counts" categories...

just my 2 cents = go Philly's
xcoffeex

[BlueHen86]

Howard is also PO'd that he wasn't eligible for arbitration last year. A few years ago Thome got hurt and the Phils didn't call Howard up from the minors right away. Had they done so Howard would have eligible last year.

[Ivytalk]

The Phils aren't negotiating in bad faith. They are offering the highest amount ever offered to a player in his first year of arb eligibility (tied with Pujols), and Howard did whiff 199 times last year. That said, if they had any sense, they'd offer him 8.5 and be done with it. If Ryan sulks, he's good for 220 Ks.

[89Hen]

Hardball on salaries has worked pretty well for the Eagles. xpeacex

[ngineer]

It's amazing to me that this thread (has just sat around) with no action...
it's (frankly) fascinating for a baseball slash Money-ball guy like me to read your thoughts and feel your anguish and then see no activity... (posting wise)

so I will indulge myself at everybody's expense...

If indeed the Philly's are on the real path to success (moneyball sucess) spend less win more and play the game of math + statistics + numbers... we can make quite a few resolute observations from their actions regarding Howard...

According to popular oligarchy: He's one dimensional
Compare him to David Américo Ortiz Arias or the Red sox "Big Papi" who happens to have a better fielding percentage and has more games played at first base... yet is also regarded as "one dimensional player fodder" by the National League standard.. Yes he is = mostly worthless yet Ortiz Wins games at a pitcher like pecentage.. which can normally never be applied to one dimensional players and certianly not the DH.. yet Howard who is clearly inferior is "God Like" because he "National League home grown Fudge" Yet stands like a slab of concrete & meat at first base... Therefore = he is good.. and Ortiz is somehow inferior... never mind results + don't let those pesky things get in the way of MLB emotions...

Thus = Pay Howard more money for lesser or same results... Yet they are almost the same guy at the plate.. David just has more experience and more late innings results ... and Rings

Therefore + the Phillys are correct = Howard $7M to $9M is fair..(It's more than Ortiz got paid last year) Just one year ago David Ortiz made $6.5 Million and he squashed Howard in the all important "what counts" categories...

just my 2 cents = go Philly's
xcoffeex

Very good points, as well as those by others. Just concerned that the Phils front office will win this battle and lose the war..

[AZGrizFan]

It's amazing to me that this thread (has just sat around) with no action...
it's (frankly) fascinating for a baseball slash Money-ball guy like me to read your thoughts and feel your anguish and then see no activity... (posting wise)

so I will indulge myself at everybody's expense...

If indeed the Philly's are on the real path to success (moneyball sucess) spend less win more and play the game of math + statistics + numbers... we can make quite a few resolute observations from their actions regarding Howard...

According to popular oligarchy: He's one dimensional
Compare him to David Américo Ortiz Arias or the Red sox "Big Papi" who happens to have a better fielding percentage and has more games played at first base... yet is also regarded as "one dimensional player fodder" by the National League standard.. Yes he is = mostly worthless yet Ortiz Wins games at a pitcher like pecentage.. which can normally never be applied to one dimensional players and certianly not the DH.. yet Howard who is clearly inferior is "God Like" because he "National League home grown Fudge" Yet stands like a slab of concrete & meat at first base... Therefore = he is good.. and Ortiz is somehow inferior... never mind results + don't let those pesky things get in the way of MLB emotions...

Thus = Pay Howard more money for lesser or same results... Yet they are almost the same guy at the plate.. David just has more experience and more late innings results ... and Rings

Therefore + the Phillys are correct = Howard $7M to $9M is fair..(It's more than Ortiz got paid last year) Just one year ago David Ortiz made $6.5 Million and he squashed Howard in the all important "what counts" categories...

just my 2 cents = go Philly's
xcoffeex

Put down the beer and ganja. Your posts are hard enough to deciper when you're SOBER. xeyebrowx xeyebrowx xeyebrowx xwhistlex xwhistlex xwhistlex

[OSBF]

NAH, they got So Taguchi, problem solved.

[ngineer]

So?
















;)

[GannonFan]

It's amazing to me that this thread (has just sat around) with no action...
it's (frankly) fascinating for a baseball slash Money-ball guy like me to read your thoughts and feel your anguish and then see no activity... (posting wise)

so I will indulge myself at everybody's expense...

If indeed the Philly's are on the real path to success (moneyball sucess) spend less win more and play the game of math + statistics + numbers... we can make quite a few resolute observations from their actions regarding Howard...

According to popular oligarchy: He's one dimensional
Compare him to David Américo Ortiz Arias or the Red sox "Big Papi" who happens to have a better fielding percentage and has more games played at first base... yet is also regarded as "one dimensional player fodder" by the National League standard.. Yes he is = mostly worthless yet Ortiz Wins games at a pitcher like pecentage.. which can normally never be applied to one dimensional players and certianly not the DH.. yet Howard who is clearly inferior is "God Like" because he "National League home grown Fudge" Yet stands like a slab of concrete & meat at first base... Therefore = he is good.. and Ortiz is somehow inferior... never mind results + don't let those pesky things get in the way of MLB emotions...

Thus = Pay Howard more money for lesser or same results... Yet they are almost the same guy at the plate.. David just has more experience and more late innings results ... and Rings

Therefore + the Phillys are correct = Howard $7M to $9M is fair..(It's more than Ortiz got paid last year) Just one year ago David Ortiz made $6.5 Million and he squashed Howard in the all important "what counts" categories...

just my 2 cents = go Philly's
xcoffeex

Which is all fine and well, but who do you get to replace Howard when you're fiscal sanity has driven him out of town? I agree that he might be asking for too much considering his overall game, but the Phils don't have a replacement for him to justify toeing the line with the salary. You have to consider the value of what you'll have left when he leaves. xthumbsupx

[Cleets]

Put down the beer and ganja. Your posts are hard enough to deciper when you're SOBER. xeyebrowx xeyebrowx xeyebrowx xwhistlex xwhistlex xwhistlex

Totally sober... just moving too fast on the keyboard...but I I re-read it you might be right...

Point being: A 400 pound first baseman in the NL who plays weakly at his position cannot be worth more than a guy who has better stats at first base (but plays there less) and hits better and wins more games...

if Ortiz got $6.5 how does Howard get a dollar more..???

Please explain...
and Hell I'm Drunk now... xoopsx

[Cleets]

Which is all fine and well, but who do you get to replace Howard when you're fiscal sanity has driven him out of town? I agree that he might be asking for too much considering his overall game, but the Phils don't have a replacement for him to justify toeing the line with the salary. You have to consider the value of what you'll have left when he leaves. xthumbsupx

Trade him for the moon and stars (like the A's do) xnodx THe mets would give their Farm system for him

[Marcus Garvey]

For a guy who wiffs more than Rob Deer, he sure has a good On Base Pct. and Slugging Pct. I don't think his MVP year where he batted over .300 was a fluke either. I think he's capable of hovering between .290 and .310 year in and year out.

The thing here is, the Phillies front office is merely doing what it's done so well for the past 25 years: F#@KING ***** UP!!!!!!

[Ivytalk]

For a guy who wiffs more than Rob Deer, he sure has a good On Base Pct. and Slugging Pct. I don't think his MVP year where he batted over .300 was a fluke either. I think he's capable of hovering between .290 and .310 year in and year out.

The thing here is, the Phillies front office is merely doing what it's done so well for the past 45 years: F#@KING ***** UP!!!!!!

Fixed it for ya!xsmhx

[Marcus Garvey]

Fixed it for ya!xsmhx

Ahhh... Ivytalk, an old fart like you must be going senile. xsmiley_wix
You forget the era of 1969-1982 where they began a systematic plan to rejuvinate the franchise. In the early 70's, they had arguably the best farm system in the majors, and that began to show dividends in the mid 70's through early 80's. Shortly after Ruly Carpenter sold them is when the Vaudvillian follies began.

[Ivytalk]

Ahhh... Ivytalk, an old fart like you must be going senile. xsmiley_wix
You forget the era of 1969-1982 where they began a systematic plan to rejuvinate the franchise. In the early 70's, they had arguably the best farm system in the majors, and that began to show dividends in the mid 70's through early 80's. Shortly after Ruly Carpenter sold them is when the Vaudvillian follies began.

I am not senile: I'm just harking back to the Fergie Jenkins trade.xsmhx They went from the penthouse to the outhouse and back again with the farm system.xpeacex

[terrierbob]

xsmiley_wix It's all academic. Braves back in first where they belong.

[GannonFan]

Trade him for the moon and stars (like the A's do) xnodx THe mets would give their Farm system for him

That's assuming that the Phils could make a trade and bring back people suitable in return. However, the Phils consistently have botched trades so I wouldn't have any faith that they could execute that trade properly.

[Ivytalk]

xsmiley_wix It's all academic. Braves back in their walkers where they belong.

Fixed it for ya, grand-dad!:D :p

[whitey]

THe mets would give their Farm system for him

Not possible. The Mets won't have a farm system as soon as the Twins acquire it in a week or two.