Farm System Football

[Milktruck74]

I posted this on the SoCon thread, but I think it deserves it's own thread for discussion. ETSU Coach Lamb says he tells recruits to use his school like a JuCo. He seriously proposes grouping 5 schools together (d3,d2,fcs,g5,p5) and recruit a block and move them up and down as needed???? WTH???? But it may not be that far off! The clip is only 60 seconds, but it is full of discussion material.

https://x.com/TheChadWithrow/status/1804136560947777999?s=19

[Outsider1]

Nope, not everyone is trying to play FBS believe it or not. Some players are happy playing where they are at and are actually concerned about staying at 1-2 schools long enough to get an actual degree.

[DFW HOYA]

That's less likely for schools that recruit and admit beyond a single region.

[Milktruck74]

Nope, not everyone is trying to play FBS believe it or not. Some players are happy playing where they are at and are actually concerned about staying at 1-2 schools long enough to get an actual degree.

While I completely understand this, and you are right SOME are happy being at a "smaller" school for their entire career, I think that was more so the sentiment of the last generation. I played in the mid-late 90s. I think I knew that I was never going to actually play at a SEC or ACC school (too short and too slow) but I went on their recruiting days to see a game. I may have had a shot to dress out in year three or four, but my role would most likely be a scout team guy and maybe getting a shot to block for FGs. However, at a 1-AA school I had a shot to compete. I was realistic. (WARNING: Here comes the "Stay off my lawn!" moment.) I don't think the HS kids today are quite the same. They are constantly Lied to about the realities of life, they are told they can do anything or be anything, and often their parents are trying to live thru them...so, I think a kid that gets his first start his senior year in HS and is second team all conference in a 6 team conference, SHOULD understand that some money from a D2 school is a very good offer...he still thinks he should be suited up for Michigan or Texas on Fall Saturdays. And parents feed into this. "My little junior is the best DL on his HS team, he got 7 tackles last friday night..." and little junior is 5'8" and 240# and all his tackles came after he was pushed off the ball 6 yards!

A few years ago I was talking to someone about a "man amongst boys" at a little single A HS near by, and they told me "He is looking at UNC and Clemson." My question was, "But are they looking at him?" He was a decent player, but ended up at an NAIA school and only had about 10 or 12 starts in 4 years. That is still OK and should be lauded. He worked hard and had fun (I assume)...but He also thought Dabo Sweeny was a poor judge of his talent!!! (along with all the other schools that didn't offer). I think that is more the norm than kids that sign up to go to a D2 or FCS school and want to stick around for 4 years...Especially now that they are seeing dollar signs in the portal. I hate it, but I think that is the new normal.

[KPSUL]

I posted this on the SoCon thread, but I think it deserves it's own thread for discussion. ETSU Coach Lamb says he tells recruits to use his school like a JuCo. He seriously proposes grouping 5 schools together (d3,d2,fcs,g5,p5) and recruit a block and move them up and down as needed???? WTH???? But it may not be that far off! The clip is only 60 seconds, but it is full of discussion material.

https://x.com/TheChadWithrow/status/1804136560947777999?s=19

I'd hope the University level administrators and Trustees are not in agreement with Coach. Why would you want to make a serious university seem like a football farm and operate like a "Last Chance U"? What does the rest of SoCon think about this guy? He is oblivious to his responsibility to his players as college students. Apparently he doesn't realize that 99% of FCS football players will never play one snap in a regular season NFL game and 95% will never make it as a starter on a P5 team. His priority should be on producing a quality FCS football program comprised of future ETSU graduates. And why would Tennessee or App State want to narrow their transfer recruiting market to East Tennessee?

[Outsider1]

While I completely understand this, and you are right SOME are happy being at a "smaller" school for their entire career, I think that was more so the sentiment of the last generation. I played in the mid-late 90s. I think I knew that I was never going to actually play at a SEC or ACC school (too short and too slow) but I went on their recruiting days to see a game. I may have had a shot to dress out in year three or four, but my role would most likely be a scout team guy and maybe getting a shot to block for FGs. However, at a 1-AA school I had a shot to compete. I was realistic. (WARNING: Here comes the "Stay off my lawn!" moment.) I don't think the HS kids today are quite the same. They are constantly Lied to about the realities of life, they are told they can do anything or be anything, and often their parents are trying to live thru them...so, I think a kid that gets his first start his senior year in HS and is second team all conference in a 6 team conference, SHOULD understand that some money from a D2 school is a very good offer...he still thinks he should be suited up for Michigan or Texas on Fall Saturdays. And parents feed into this. "My little junior is the best DL on his HS team, he got 7 tackles last friday night..." and little junior is 5'8" and 240# and all his tackles came after he was pushed off the ball 6 yards!

A few years ago I was talking to someone about a "man amongst boys" at a little single A HS near by, and they told me "He is looking at UNC and Clemson." My question was, "But are they looking at him?" He was a decent player, but ended up at an NAIA school and only had about 10 or 12 starts in 4 years. That is still OK and should be lauded. He worked hard and had fun (I assume)...but He also thought Dabo Sweeny was a poor judge of his talent!!! (along with all the other schools that didn't offer). I think that is more the norm than kids that sign up to go to a D2 or FCS school and want to stick around for 4 years...Especially now that they are seeing dollar signs in the portal. I hate it, but I think that is the new normal.

I wholeheartedly agree with you and why such a "Farm System" shouldn't even be entertained. Too many kids expect to play higher than they should and transfer around faster than they themselves can keep up with. I guess a farm system could slow that down if it took their free agency out of the equation and left it to the higher schools to call them up or not. Still, there needs to be a better balance of expectation to begin with. That's why I am more interested to see where the new FCS level proposals might lead. If these are actually student led, and help strike a balance between the student and athlete portions, then they could help simmer some of this. I have always believed that if a kid is truly talented and works hard enough, they can work themselves up certain levels, but even in business, not everyone climbs to the top. Sports is no different. The nice thing is that there are lots of professional leagues today to allow for a more diverse level of play. Some, can go ahead and go into the business world where they would anyway. Of course the train you described has been going full steam without brakes for some time.

[Professor Chaos]

I think there's a lot of overreactions to the transfer activity recently. Transfer activity is up but I think it's a combination of loosened restrictions and the extra COVID year that everybody got. The free COVID year is basically done now with this being the 4th "normal" fall season since COVID and I think many transfer are finding out that the grass isn't necessarily greener in transfer-land so I'd expect transfer activity to level off some but probably not to the level from before the new transfer rules were in place.

Sam Herder with HERO Sports has been tracking it and there's been far more FBS->FCS transfers (https://herosports.com/2024-fbs-to-fcs-transfers-bzbz/) than FCS->FBS transfers (https://herosports.com/2024-fcs-to-fbs-transfers-bzbz/). As fans it's irritates us but I think, for the most part, it's not going to impact the level of support our college football teams get. It hasn't seem to impact support for men's basketball much and transfer activity is much greater (as a percentage of all players) there than it is in football.

[mvfcfan]

Indiana State's new basketball coach said about the same thing. I love college football enough to deal with whatever may come, but I'm not watching "farm team basketball" until at least late February. I have better things to do with my time.

[Franks Tanks]

While I completely understand this, and you are right SOME are happy being at a "smaller" school for their entire career, I think that was more so the sentiment of the last generation. I played in the mid-late 90s. I think I knew that I was never going to actually play at a SEC or ACC school (too short and too slow) but I went on their recruiting days to see a game. I may have had a shot to dress out in year three or four, but my role would most likely be a scout team guy and maybe getting a shot to block for FGs. However, at a 1-AA school I had a shot to compete. I was realistic. (WARNING: Here comes the "Stay off my lawn!" moment.) I don't think the HS kids today are quite the same. They are constantly Lied to about the realities of life, they are told they can do anything or be anything, and often their parents are trying to live thru them...so, I think a kid that gets his first start his senior year in HS and is second team all conference in a 6 team conference, SHOULD understand that some money from a D2 school is a very good offer...he still thinks he should be suited up for Michigan or Texas on Fall Saturdays. And parents feed into this. "My little junior is the best DL on his HS team, he got 7 tackles last friday night..." and little junior is 5'8" and 240# and all his tackles came after he was pushed off the ball 6 yards!

A few years ago I was talking to someone about a "man amongst boys" at a little single A HS near by, and they told me "He is looking at UNC and Clemson." My question was, "But are they looking at him?" He was a decent player, but ended up at an NAIA school and only had about 10 or 12 starts in 4 years. That is still OK and should be lauded. He worked hard and had fun (I assume)...but He also thought Dabo Sweeny was a poor judge of his talent!!! (along with all the other schools that didn't offer). I think that is more the norm than kids that sign up to go to a D2 or FCS school and want to stick around for 4 years...Especially now that they are seeing dollar signs in the portal. I hate it, but I think that is the new normal.

Agree, so many kids need a reality check. Many parents are unrealistic and there must be some rather delusional coaches out there. You constantly see posts from some unathletic 5’9 270 pound weebke wobble waiting “ for that D1 offer son, just need that opportunity”. No, you’re like a D3 roster filler in your best day.

In addition, maybe 10 or 15% of FCS players will excel and get an opportunity to transfer to FBS. Fewer still will get NIL money. FCS has really good football, but most of us were FCS for a reason.

[Milktruck74]

Agree, so many kids need a reality check. Many parents are unrealistic and there must be some rather delusional coaches out there. You constantly see posts from some unathletic 5’9 270 pound weebke wobble waiting “ for that D1 offer son, just need that opportunity”. No, you’re like a D3 roster filler in your best day.

In addition, maybe 10 or 15% of FCS players will excel and get an opportunity to transfer to FBS. Fewer still will get NIL money. FCS has really good football, but most of us were FCS for a reason.

Ding ding ding!!!! Winner!!!

[caribbeanhen]

Ding ding ding!!!! Winner!!!

https://www.azquotes.com/picture-quotes/quote-when-you-want-to-help-people-you-tell-them-the-truth-when-you-want-to-help-yourself-thomas-sowell-42-57-18.jpg

[KnightoftheRedFlash]

https://www.azquotes.com/picture-quotes/quote-when-you-want-to-help-people-you-tell-them-the-truth-when-you-want-to-help-yourself-thomas-sowell-42-57-18.jpg

One of the finest thinkers in American history!

[Baron Sardonicus]

Although not a minor league situation, the Ivy League (with no fifth year allowed) is sending players to the Pioneer. It's more analogous to Americans going to Japanese baseball (https://1.bp.blogspot.com/_dfWsvfeutrw/STL74e8rPmI/AAAAAAAAAyQ/t4vh8v1hHO0/s320/89+Fielder.jpg). Certain PFL coaches have Ivy backgrounds/connections, and they're providing homes for the "gaijin." I long for the days when the path to the PFL championship was to offer scholarships under the table. :sigh:


xsmiley_wix

[Go Green]

Although not a minor league situation, the Ivy League (with no fifth year allowed) is sending players to the Pioneer. It's more analogous to Americans going to Japanese baseball (https://1.bp.blogspot.com/_dfWsvfeutrw/STL74e8rPmI/AAAAAAAAAyQ/t4vh8v1hHO0/s320/89+Fielder.jpg). Certain PFL coaches have Ivy backgrounds/connections, and they're providing homes for the "gaijin." I long for the days when the path to the PFL championship was to offer scholarships under the table. :sigh:


xsmiley_wix

To be fair, the Ivy is sending fifth-year players to schools of all levels (including BCS teams).

The late Buddy Teevens attempted to embrace it. His pitch would be along the lines of "Come to Dartmouth. If you want to sit out your freshman year, that's fine. Get your degree in four years and play your final year of NCAA eligibility while doing graduate work on scholarship somewhere else."

[VandalBasher]

How many D1 players want to play at the University of Washington? Probably more than the 83 scholarship allowance. If the Huskies want to park some of their D1 talent at D1-AA (FCS) Idaho, we will welcome it.

[bonarae]

To be fair, the Ivy is sending fifth-year players to schools of all levels (including BCS teams).

The late Buddy Teevens attempted to embrace it. His pitch would be along the lines of "Come to Dartmouth. If you want to sit out your freshman year, that's fine. Get your degree in four years and play your final year of NCAA eligibility while doing graduate work on scholarship somewhere else."

Are the Ivy Presidents still backwards-thinking towards football? If their former competitors (i.e., B1G teams) do split from the NCAA for their betterment, do you think the Ivies will go NESCAC? (Or somewhere along the lines of it)

[bonarae]

Although not a minor league situation, the Ivy League (with no fifth year allowed) is sending players to the Pioneer. It's more analogous to Americans going to Japanese baseball (https://1.bp.blogspot.com/_dfWsvfeutrw/STL74e8rPmI/AAAAAAAAAyQ/t4vh8v1hHO0/s320/89+Fielder.jpg). Certain PFL coaches have Ivy backgrounds/connections, and they're providing homes for the "gaijin." I long for the days when the path to the PFL championship was to offer scholarships under the table. :sigh:


xsmiley_wix

Did the NCAA detect this practice? The prognosticator of this practice eventually stopped football... xlolx

When the Tommies get playoff-eligible after 2 years I believe, MVFC watch out... xrulesx

[UAalum72]

Did the NCAA detect this practice? The prognosticator of this practice eventually stopped football... xlolx

If that's referring to San Diego, it would've been a violation of league rules/agreements, but not of NCAA rules, the PFL being more restrictive than required.

[bonarae]

If that's referring to San Diego, it would've been a violation of league rules/agreements, but not of NCAA rules, the PFL being more restrictive than required.

Uh, Jacksonville took the captaincy but that "ship" (the practice of underground scholarships) eventually sank after Jacksonville stopped sponsoring football...

[Milktruck74]

Uh, Jacksonville took the captaincy but that "ship" (the practice of underground scholarships) eventually sank after Jacksonville stopped sponsoring football...

Not FCS, and probably not true at all...I was told in the 70s and 80s there were about 20 counties in Nebraska that had endowments that fully funded a full 4-year scholarship to Nebraska...each county had a scholarship committee that would pick the recipient, and more often than not it happened to go the best athlete in the county (usually FB)...who in turn ended up as a walk-on at Nebraska....essentially giving them a boatload more schollys.

Again, this is just a story I heard and not sure if any of it is true, but....seems like a way around the NCAA scholly limit if so...and now it can be done with NIL. Why does a 5 star who is pulling down $1MM a year in NIL actually need to be "on Scholarship"? Why not save it for someone else and expand the talent pool?.

[Outsider1]

Not FCS, and probably not true at all...I was told in the 70s and 80s there were about 20 counties in Nebraska that had endowments that fully funded a full 4-year scholarship to Nebraska...each county had a scholarship committee that would pick the recipient, and more often than not it happened to go the best athlete in the county (usually FB)...who in turn ended up as a walk-on at Nebraska....essentially giving them a boatload more schollys.

Again, this is just a story I heard and not sure if any of it is true, but....seems like a way around the NCAA scholly limit if so...and now it can be done with NIL. Why does a 5 star who is pulling down $1MM a year in NIL actually need to be "on Scholarship"? Why not save it for someone else and expand the talent pool?.


Not sure if that is fiction or not, but it wouldn't surprise me, even if it broke NCAA rules. Honestly, if the CFP/P5 schools want to keep going down that road, they shouldn't have scholarships at all. They are paid employees remember? All their money is in NIL anyway. Scholarships are for actual student athletes, which doesn't exist at CFP/5 schools anymore. That is another reason why CFP/5 schools should no longer be a part of the NCAA whatsoever. Honestly, I want to say P4, but the Pac2 is getting ready to rebuild and there are schools in the upper crust of the G5 that almost make the P5 grade, so that line gets blurry. If I could have it my way (rarely), We would clearly mark the conferences that will break away from the NCAA and form their own semi-pro athletic league in all major sports (Football, Baseball, Basketball, Softball, Track & Field, Soccer, Tennis, Golf). Then, all the other conferences can sort out the new NCAA and conferences from there: D1-A, D1-AA, DII and DIII.

[FUBeAR]

Regarding the 2 prior comments…FUBeAR believes that he saw that, recognizing the issue with the muddling of NIL $ & “Scholarship” $/limits, the NCAA is considering eliminating Scholarship limits in favor of limits on number of Players on the Roster - don’t matter if you wanna pay none of ‘em anything or all of ‘em $10M each, you can only have XX in the program.

Makes sense to FUBeAR in a world where amateur collegiate athletics no longer makes any sense at all.

[Outsider1]

At least that is somewhat of an acknowledgement of the state that the CFP/P5 is in, but it doesn't reflect the NCAA, which is why they need to just go their separate ways altogether. A certain part of the NCAA seems to want to play it both ways. Sorry, but that isn't how it works. If semi-pro is the way you want to go, then fine, go but you can't have different rules and expectations for other institutions within your own system. Right now, the NCAA is full on Schizophrenic.

[ngineer]

I think NFL should be made to create their official farm system, just like baseball does. The NCAA has become a whorehouse for the NFL. So many players just being used under the fraudulent mantel of getting an education.

[bonarae]

I think NFL should be made to create their official farm system, just like baseball does. The NCAA has become a whorehouse for the NFL. So many players just being used under the fraudulent mantel of getting an education.

I agree 1000%. Will a court decision finally convince them to do so? xchinscratchx