Richmond to join the Patriot League in 2025

[ngineer]

Got verification from Coach. Redshirts are here.
Well, 2025.
Is that limited to a certain number per team?

[ngineer]

Z
As yetI can find no change in PL by laws concerning redshirting. Athletic redshirting still banned. If true,PL will eventually publish changes.

It appears that will be occurring. UR will have a few years advantage as the rest of the League won’t start getting red shirt recruits until fall, 2025. Similar to how HC dominated a few years when they joined as a scholarship team in 1986. But Inam looking forward to this change.

[ngineer]

"Dumpster Fire" might be a bit extreme but the league really hit the skids 6 through 7 from 2015-2021 or so. UNH absolutely made the right decision to stay the course assuming the PL was not going to yield ground when it came to important policies. I said back then someone needed to upset the apple cart to enhance the PL's chances to succeed while maintaining its core mission which is driven by the scholar-athlete, not the student-athlete. I thought New England public flagships like UNH, Maine, URI, plus Delaware would have been the perfect group to "balance things out" when it came to the overall PL applicant pool, athletic policy, geographical continuity.

One thing that must be considered are the recent NLRB decisions regarding private institutions. By keeping the PL all private (Army and Navy excluded) the membership seems well positioned to navigate the inevitable turbulent waters that are ahead. Likewise, with the IL (Cornell obviously a bit of an outlier).

Yes, SUNY-Ithaca…..😉

[The Boogie Down]

Good Lord, this is thoughtless.

Actually, it’s Delaware that’s playing Bryant OOC this year. Second, you don’t have to join a dumpster league like CUSA to play anyone. We play UVA virtually every other year. Maine’s playing Oklahoma this Fall. The UD board erupted with OMG!!, we just signed up to play Coastal Carolina!! That’s our second game this year. Big deal.

You act like many of the other Delaware fans that somehow think your past crappy OOC schedules are someone else’s fault. St. Francis, Delaware State, Sacred Heart - the CAA didn’t force the Hens to schedule any of them. They did on their own.

And keep wishing for that sinking ship. If it’s sinking, only because so many jumped on. There are threads going back 20 years bloviating about how the CAA is going to implode. Yet it’s still stronger in every facet than the PL. it’s amusing to read at this point, especially when Hens think playing Kennesaw is going to help pull in new students from Georgia as justification. And that’s their leadership.

Your comments on Campbell can be excused for ignorance. It doesn’t surprise me you never heard of them as you breathlessly prepare for Gameday at Bucknell or Marist. Their Gameday and fanbase makes Fordham look little league. They actually have two sides to their stadium too.

As far as Richmond, those most upset about this shift are their own fans. That should tell you something,

Dude, you can’t even figure out how to post a block quote (no worries, I fixed it for you) and you’re bringing up thoughtless?

As for OCC’s, you’re taking about one game this year, one game next year, maybe who knows, another cool game sometime after that. Delaware, if they want, is looking at 4 attractive OCC games a year, every year. And unlike w/the FCS, some of those games will be at home. UMass is hosting an SEC team this fall. When in the year 20-Never do you think any FCS school is gonna get to do that?

As for "threads going back 20 years bloviating about how the CAA is going to implode," I wouldn’t know about that. I wasn’t here 20 years ago. When I did get here I only had nice things to say about the CAA. In fact, it was only once rumors started popping about the Island of Misfit Toys filling up the ranks of your once proud league that I stopped to reevaluate things. But sure, if you do wanna go back 20 years, let’s do it!

You guys used to win chips back then, right? And now? Not so much. You guys used to be the single best FCS league in the land back then, right? And now? Not so much. You guys would never get one of your top teams poached by the “dumpster fire” that is the Patsy League back then, right? And now? Not so much.

Enjoy the time you spend on Delaware boards, Richmond boards, fan stadium review boards and whatever else that gets you through the day. Just don’t forget that the Big Southish is a sinking ship. Oh and don’t forget that my Patsies are one move away (Maybe Villanova, or maybe your own school!) from calling checkmate.

[The Boogie Down]

I went to Fordham a few years ago, staggered across the street from the legendary food channel hyped Chuchifritos…

I remember that. I also remember telling you to go to Arthur Avenue for the best Italian food in all of NYC and thus, all of America. The rest was up to you.



I’m no college ranking expert, but USC seems to be buoyed by how popular it is rather than the rigor and quality of its academic offerings. It’s a “cool” destination school like NYU, Miami and SMU that gets a tremendous number of applicants. Compare these schools to a CMU or Case Western. Fantastic and “serious” schools that aren’t necessarily “the place to be” for the “cool rich kids”.

Well said, FT. A very good friend of mine, someone who was never cool, is a proud Tartans man. The only thing he knows about football is that his alma mater once beat Notre Dame.

[Tribe4SF]

Interested how the Lafayette folks feel about redshirts being allowed. With no graduate programs they will be at a disadvantage.

[FUBeAR]

Interested how the Lafayette folks feel about redshirts being allowed. With no graduate programs they will be at a disadvantage.Wofford & Furman (until recently when several viable / desirable advanced degree programs were added at FU) have had the same issue in the SoCon. Hasn’t seemed to hurt their competitiveness. Wofford’s current challenges are primarily due to a horrible transition around a legendary Coach from which they have really struggled to recover. VMI also has no grad programs, but FUBeAR would conclude that’s just 1 of the many challenges that the Keydets must overcome to compete in the SoCon.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Interested how the Lafayette folks feel about redshirts being allowed. With no graduate programs they will be at a disadvantage. Does Colgate have grad programs? I know its a "university" but didn't know if they had any or not. Personally I've never heard of anyone going there for grad school.

Holy Cross and Colgate are in same boat as liberal arts colleges. Lehigh and Bucknell are technically universities but are mainly liberal arts with limited grad programs. Redshirts just require a little academic planning. What typically takes place is that a player will un-enroll for their senior spring and then return to complete their 8th and final semester the following fall during which time they will play football as a 5th yr senior.

[RichH2]

[QUOTE=NY Crusader 2010;3188891]Holy Cross and Colgate are in same boat as liberal arts colleges. Lehigh and Bucknell are technically universities but are mainly liberal arts with limited grad programs. Redshirts just require a little academic planning. What typically takes place is that a player will un-enroll for their senior spring and then return to complete their 8th and final semester the following fall during which time they will play football as a 5th yr


Bucknell and Colgate do fit your description of limited grad programs
Lehigh does not. There are over 1700 grad students at Lehigh

[FUBeAR]

Holy Cross and Colgate are in same boat as liberal arts colleges. Lehigh and Bucknell are technically universities but are mainly liberal arts with limited grad programs. Redshirts just require a little academic planning. What typically takes place is that a player will un-enroll for their senior spring and then return to complete their 8th and final semester the following fall during which time they will play football as a 5th yr senior.
Not sure why it might be different (other than because all southerners are ignorant and all southern schools suck xrolleyesx), but with AP Classes in HS getting college GenEd requirements, early enrollment, summer school, and online classes, kids at Furman, Mercer, and others down here, FUBeAR reckons, are finishing in 3 years and looking to complete their grad degree as they finish their 5th year…so, the semester off plan ain’t a great option. With this and the portal, Coaches are thinking long and hard before they redshirt kids … you may only have ‘em for 2 or 3 years. Gotta consider the ROI.

[Sitting Bull]

Dude, you can’t even figure out how to post a block quote (no worries, I fixed it for you) and you’re bringing up thoughtless?

As for OCC’s, you’re taking about one game this year, one game next year, maybe who knows, another cool game sometime after that. Delaware, if they want, is looking at 4 attractive OCC games a year, every year. And unlike w/the FCS, some of those games will be at home. UMass is hosting an SEC team this fall. When in the year 20-Never do you think any FCS school is gonna get to do that?

As for "threads going back 20 years bloviating about how the CAA is going to implode," I wouldn’t know about that. I wasn’t here 20 years ago. When I did get here I only had nice things to say about the CAA. In fact, it was only once rumors started popping about the Island of Misfit Toys filling up the ranks of your once proud league that I stopped to reevaluate things. But sure, if you do wanna go back 20 years, let’s do it!

You guys used to win chips back then, right? And now? Not so much. You guys used to be the single best FCS league in the land back then, right? And now? Not so much. You guys would never get one of your top teams poached by the “dumpster fire” that is the Patsy League back then, right? And now? Not so much.

Enjoy the time you spend on Delaware boards, Richmond boards, fan stadium review boards and whatever else that gets you through the day. Just don’t forget that the Big Southish is a sinking ship. Oh and don’t forget that my Patsies are one move away (Maybe Villanova, or maybe your own school!) from calling checkmate.

Dude, I’m still waiting to find out which CAA team isn’t in the Eastern time zone. Please fill us in.

From “Boogie Down” 2AM rant
So you don't see that you're on a sinking ship AND you don't see that not everyone is in your time zone?

[Franks Tanks]

Holy Cross and Colgate are in same boat as liberal arts colleges. Lehigh and Bucknell are technically universities but are mainly liberal arts with limited grad programs. Redshirts just require a little academic planning. What typically takes place is that a player will un-enroll for their senior spring and then return to complete their 8th and final semester the following fall during which time they will play football as a 5th yr senior.

Well said. I just looked it up. Colgate reports 11 grad students and Bucknell about 50. A 5th year for a fall sport means the player gets one extra semester not a full year. The ability for a young man to get a semester of grad school paid for is an attractive benefit for an academically minded young man, but will probably rarely be the determining factor.

At Lafayette, the 9th semester can be used to add a double major, or a player can take a lighter course load for a semester or two. At the big FBS schools there was a period of time when players were rushing to complete undergrad degrees to potentially have two years elsewhere after a grad transfer. But, with current transfer rules does that really matter?

Penn State for example now pushes players to graduate in 3 years. Under Franklin, they are no bastion of academic success in FBS and have players with average academic records. Players take classes over the summer after graduating from high school, enroll early, and take classes over the summers, so completing in 3 years in rather easy. Penn State and other like programs push for 3 years for a few reasons. Some kids leave for the NFL at that point and they want to try to get them a degree. Also, if they aren’t playing after 3 years they likely never will, and it’s easier to “process a kid out” when they have their undergrad degree. They basically tell them you graduated, and you no longer have a place on the team as we need to make room. Better PR when the kid transfers with degree in hand. To the extent that FBS powers are still somewhat trying to portray that school matters for their athletes.

[UNHWILDCATS05]

You mean back in 1994, when there were discussions between some of the New England A-10 schools and the Patriot League? I don't recall that any invitations were extended then. That is why Towson joined the PL.

Did you read the article…?

[MR. CHICKEN]

Dude, you can’t even figure out how to post a block quote (no worries, I fixed it for you) and you’re bringing up thoughtless?

As for OCC’s, you’re taking about one game this year, one game next year, maybe who knows, another cool game sometime after that. Delaware, if they want, is looking at 4 attractive OCC games a year, every year. And unlike w/the FCS, some of those games will be at home. UMass is hosting an SEC team this fall. When in the year 20-Never do you think any FCS school is gonna get to do that?




As for "threads going back 20 years bloviating about how the CAA is going to implode," I wouldn’t know about that. I wasn’t here 20 years ago. When I did get here I only had nice things to say about the CAA. In fact, it was only once rumors started popping about the Island of Misfit Toys filling up the ranks of your once proud league that I stopped to reevaluate things. But sure, if you do wanna go back 20 years, let’s do it!

You guys used to win chips back then, right? And now? Not so much. You guys used to be the single best FCS league in the land back then, right? And now? Not so much. You guys would never get one of your top teams poached by the “dumpster fire” that is the Patsy League back then, right? And now? Not so much.

Enjoy the time you spend on Delaware boards, Richmond boards, fan stadium review boards and whatever else that gets you through the day. Just don’t forget that the Big Southish is a sinking ship. Oh and don’t forget that my Patsies are one move away (Maybe Villanova, or maybe your own school!) from calling checkmate.



xpopcornx

[MR. CHICKEN]

[QUOTE=Sitting Bull;3188895]Dude, I’m still waiting to find out which CAA team isn’t in the Eastern time zone. Please fill us in.



xpopcornx

[mainejeff]

It's time to think big....I'm advocating for Maine to go FBS and become MAC #14. Maine has 1.4 million people and UMaine is the only D1 program in the state (the only state in the country with one D1 football program). The #78 Portland/#156 Bangor media markets combined would rank right around #68 Des Moines/Ames. Bangor International Airport is 10 minutes from campus....a quick trip for MAC teams stepping off their charter flight. Commercial airlines that serve BIA are American, Allegiant, Breeze, Delta and United.

$220 million in new and renovated athletic facilities is underway including Morse Arena....a new basketball facility slated to be completed in December 2026 and will house football operations and be attached to Alfond Stadium which itself will have its track removed as well as other updated features.

Finally Maine's AD is Jude Killy....a masters grad and longtime (15 years) associate AD at Miami-Ohio. He is familiar and has ties to the MAC.

LFG!

xnodx

[caribbeanhen]

It's time to think big....I'm advocating for Maine to go FBS and become MAC #14. Maine has 1.4 million people and UMaine is the only D1 program in the state (the only state in the country with one D1 football program). The #78 Portland/#156 Bangor media markets combined would rank right around #68 Des Moines/Ames. Bangor International Airport is 10 minutes from campus....a quick trip for MAC teams stepping off their charter flight. Commercial airlines that serve BIA are American, Allegiant, Breeze, Delta and United.

$220 million in new and renovated athletic facilities is underway including Morse Arena....a new basketball facility slated to be completed in December 2026 and will house football operations and be attached to Alfond Stadium which itself will have its track removed as well as other updated features.

Finally Maine's AD is Jude Killy....a masters grad and longtime (15 years) associate AD at Miami-Ohio. He is familiar and has ties to the MAC.

LFG!

xnodx

Is anybody else talking like you?

[KPSUL]

It's time to think big....I'm advocating for Maine to go FBS and become MAC #14. Maine has 1.4 million people and UMaine is the only D1 program in the state (the only state in the country with one D1 football program). The #78 Portland/#156 Bangor media markets combined would rank right around #68 Des Moines/Ames. Bangor International Airport is 10 minutes from campus....a quick trip for MAC teams stepping off their charter flight. Commercial airlines that serve BIA are American, Allegiant, Breeze, Delta and United.

$220 million in new and renovated athletic facilities is underway including Morse Arena....a new basketball facility slated to be completed in December 2026 and will house football operations and be attached to Alfond Stadium which itself will have its track removed as well as other updated features.

Finally Maine's AD is Jude Killy....a masters grad and longtime (15 years) associate AD at Miami-Ohio. He is familiar and has ties to the MAC.

LFG!

xnodx

What G5 Conference is going to offer Maine a chance to join? Most Mainiacs live in the Portland area or south and you have the same indirect competition as UNH - the full slate of Boston professional sports. I think that there's almost as many UNH fans in Southern Maine as there are U of M. Wildcat Stadium is much closer for them then Alfond. Maine has had some marquis players in recent years but most of them transfer at their earliest opportunity. So did your outstanding coaching staff immediately after the highly successful 2018 season. You really haven't had back-to-back winning seasons in a long time. Maine had a resurgence in Men's Hockey this past season but you already play in a premier Division 1 Hockey Conference. So I believe moving to G5, with or without the Dexter Shoe money, would be a big mistake, if it is even feasible. I feel exactly the same about UNH - very happy to see them stay FCS.

[KPSUL]

Did you read the article…?

Here it is again!

https://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2013/09/new-hampshire-was-this-close-to-joining.html

I believe the publication was written/edited by an AGS Member by the same name: Lehigh Football Nation. Could be mistaken but I recall Ursus asking him not to post things credited or referring to his publication.

In my opinion the article is well sourced and very likely accurate. The PL offer was made to UNH in the 2012 timeframe.

[mainejeff]

What G5 Conference is going to offer Maine a chance to join? Most Mainiacs live in the Portland area or south and you have the same indirect competition as UNH - the full slate of Boston professional sports. I think that there's almost as many UNH fans in Southern Maine as there are U of M. Wildcat Stadium is much closer for them then Alfond. Maine has had some marquis players in recent years but most of them transfer at their earliest opportunity. So did your outstanding coaching staff immediately after the highly successful 2018 season. You really haven't had back-to-back winning seasons in a long time. Maine had a resurgence in Men's Hockey this past season but you already play in a premier Division 1 Hockey Conference. So I believe moving to G5, with or without the Dexter Shoe money, would be a big mistake, if it is even feasible. I feel exactly the same about UNH - very happy to see them stay FCS.

You’ll have to sell UNH to the MAC separately…notice that I didn’t have to tear down UNH to sell Maine. Good luck!

[KPSUL]

You’ll have to sell UNH to the MAC separately…notice that I didn’t have to tear down UNH to sell Maine. Good luck!

Not sure how you concluded I wanted to sell UNH to anyone; but, to clarify I have absolutely no desire to see UNH pursue any move to FBS. I was not trying to tear down Maine, I believe everything I posted was factual, unless I said "I believe" or "I think" and then it was my opinion.

[ngineer]

Holy Cross and Colgate are in same boat as liberal arts colleges. Lehigh and Bucknell are technically universities but are mainly liberal arts with limited grad programs. Redshirts just require a little academic planning. What typically takes place is that a player will un-enroll for their senior spring and then return to complete their 8th and final semester the following fall during which time they will play football as a 5th yr senior.

Isn't there a 'minimum' number of credits that the student must be taking to be enrolled? I thought it was 12 (indeed, back in my day I think 9 was permissible). If so, taking only 12 credits a semester would carry over to the fifth fall.

[ngineer]

[QUOTE=RichH2;3188892][QUOTE=NY Crusader 2010;3188891]Holy Cross and Colgate are in same boat as liberal arts colleges. Lehigh and Bucknell are technically universities but are mainly liberal arts with limited grad programs. Redshirts just require a little academic planning. What typically takes place is that a player will un-enroll for their senior spring and then return to complete their 8th and final semester the following fall during which time they will play football as a 5th yr


Bucknell and Colgate do fit your description of limited grad programs
Lehigh does not. There are over 1700 grad students at Lehigh[/QUOTE Beat me to it. Lehigh has a very extensive Masters and Ph.D programs in all four colleges (actually five colleges with the College of Education, which is only for post-graduate studies).

[POD Knows]

It's time to think big....I'm advocating for Maine to go FBS and become MAC #14. Maine has 1.4 million people and UMaine is the only D1 program in the state (the only state in the country with one D1 football program). The #78 Portland/#156 Bangor media markets combined would rank right around #68 Des Moines/Ames. Bangor International Airport is 10 minutes from campus....a quick trip for MAC teams stepping off their charter flight. Commercial airlines that serve BIA are American, Allegiant, Breeze, Delta and United.

$220 million in new and renovated athletic facilities is underway including Morse Arena....a new basketball facility slated to be completed in December 2026 and will house football operations and be attached to Alfond Stadium which itself will have its track removed as well as other updated features.

Finally Maine's AD is Jude Killy....a masters grad and longtime (15 years) associate AD at Miami-Ohio. He is familiar and has ties to the MAC.

LFG!

xnodx
Minnesota only has one D1 program as well. Nebraska only has one D1 football program.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Minnesota only has one D1 program as well. Nebraska only has one D1 football program.

St. Thomas qualifies as D1 in Minnesota.

Wisconsin has only the Badgers. Otherwise, no other public/private FBS and/or FCS programs.

[POD Knows]

St. Thomas qualifies as D1 in Minnesota.

Wisconsin has only the Badgers. Otherwise, no other public/private FBS and/or FCS programs.Oops. I meant WI, nice catch.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

[QUOTE=RichH2;3188892][QUOTE=NY Crusader 2010;3188891]Holy Cross and Colgate are in same boat as liberal arts colleges. Lehigh and Bucknell are technically universities but are mainly liberal arts with limited grad programs. Redshirts just require a little academic planning. What typically takes place is that a player will un-enroll for their senior spring and then return to complete their 8th and final semester the following fall during which time they will play football as a 5th yr


Bucknell and Colgate do fit your description of limited grad programs
Lehigh does not. There are over 1700 grad students at Lehigh[/QUOTE Beat me to it. Lehigh has a very extensive Masters and Ph.D programs in all four colleges (actually five colleges with the College of Education, which is only for post-graduate studies).

Lehigh has a substantial graduate program but it should be larger imo.

The College of Education does award undergrad degrees/admit traditional freshman. However, it's a joint B.A. and M.A in Education? Could be a B.A and M.Ed.?

Lehigh's MBA price tag definitely carries some sticker shock, $75k+? I wonder what the typical applicant profile looks like. For roughly 1/3 of the price a Temple, Pitt, or PSU MBA is just as good imo.....

[mainejeff]

Not sure how you concluded I wanted to sell UNH to anyone; but, to clarify I have absolutely no desire to see UNH pursue any move to FBS. I was not trying to tear down Maine, I believe everything I posted was factual, unless I said "I believe" or "I think" and then it was my opinion.

Maybe we’ll still schedule you but you’ll have to play in Orono.

[KPSUL]

Maybe we’ll still schedule you but you’ll have to play in Orono.

Good luck as your lead your Black Bears into the G5! URI would probably like a regional, annual rivalry game and it's 50 miles closer to Durham.

[KnightoftheRedFlash]

Dude, you can’t even figure out how to post a block quote (no worries, I fixed it for you) and you’re bringing up thoughtless?

As for OCC’s, you’re taking about one game this year, one game next year, maybe who knows, another cool game sometime after that. Delaware, if they want, is looking at 4 attractive OCC games a year, every year. And unlike w/the FCS, some of those games will be at home. UMass is hosting an SEC team this fall. When in the year 20-Never do you think any FCS school is gonna get to do that?

As for "threads going back 20 years bloviating about how the CAA is going to implode," I wouldn’t know about that. I wasn’t here 20 years ago. When I did get here I only had nice things to say about the CAA. In fact, it was only once rumors started popping about the Island of Misfit Toys filling up the ranks of your once proud league that I stopped to reevaluate things. But sure, if you do wanna go back 20 years, let’s do it!

You guys used to win chips back then, right? And now? Not so much. You guys used to be the single best FCS league in the land back then, right? And now? Not so much. You guys would never get one of your top teams poached by the “dumpster fire” that is the Patsy League back then, right? And now? Not so much.

Enjoy the time you spend on Delaware boards, Richmond boards, fan stadium review boards and whatever else that gets you through the day. Just don’t forget that the Big Southish is a sinking ship. Oh and don’t forget that my Patsies are one move away (Maybe Villanova, or maybe your own school!) from calling checkmate.

Another kill shot.

There is a reason why programs keep moving up to FBS and only Idaho (purely president driven) has dropped down to FCS.

[Gangtackle11]

We need to get back on the hump first, before we can get over it. I still don't see any team dominating the CAA in the near future. There's has been a lot of parity in conference the last few years and honestly, it's a lot more fun with JMU gone. At least half of the conference games, maybe more, are true toss ups. The only conference game UNH had last season that was not hard fought throughout was Stony Brook. I wish Richmond hadn't left and I hope Villanova stays, but either way, there will still be a lot of good football played in the CAA. You guys shouldn't wish Richmond too much success, you don't want to end up like 2016-2021 CAA, when JMU dominated. I believe JMU only lost 3 conference games out of about 44 in that stretch: One to Elon @JMU (and JMU stole their coach) and one each to UNH and Villanova on the road.

Love to take credit for a win over JMU. We haven’t beaten them since 2014, but we have beaten Delaware like a rented mule for 15 years in the fall games. It took a pandemic & a spring game for the football school celebrate a win! xpeacex

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Isn't there a 'minimum' number of credits that the student must be taking to be enrolled? I thought it was 12 (indeed, back in my day I think 9 was permissible). If so, taking only 12 credits a semester would carry over to the fifth fall.

There are student-athletes who are enrolled in graduate certificate programs that are eligible.

Max Abmas immediately came to mind from my time at UT last summer....

https://texassports.com/sports/mens-basketball/roster/max-abmas/13270

[centraljerseycat]

Love to take credit for a win over JMU. We haven’t beaten them since 2014, but we have beaten Delaware like a rented mule for 15 years in the fall games. It took a pandemic & a spring game for the football school celebrate a win! xpeacex

Villanova won at JMU in 2021. 28-27

[NY Crusader 2010]

Another kill shot.

There is a reason why programs keep moving up to FBS and only Idaho (purely president driven) has dropped down to FCS.

Idaho didn't have an FBS league that would take them, otherwise they'd still be up there. After the WAC folded, they couldn't get an invite to the Mountain West or the Sun Belt, where they had been an affiliate before. All other sports had nowhere else to go but back into the Big Sky so the decision made sense. Had Idaho held out for a couple more years, they could've been in CUSA now. An even worse fit than it is for Delaware right now.

Ultimately, when the "second level" of DI football forms, a league comprised of Idaho, Montana, Montana State, the four Dakota schools and Northern Iowa would make a ton of sense.

[Go...gate]

Did you read the article…?

No, I didn't - did you send a link?

I was around for the 1994 situation, though.

[Gangtackle11]

Villanova won at JMU in 2021. 28-27

Oh yeah. Stand corrected. xpeacex

[Go...gate]

Here it is again!

https://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2013/09/new-hampshire-was-this-close-to-joining.html

I believe the publication was written/edited by an AGS Member by the same name: Lehigh Football Nation. Could be mistaken but I recall Ursus asking him not to post things credited or referring to his publication.

In my opinion the article is well sourced and very likely accurate. The PL offer was made to UNH in the 2012 timeframe.

Thank you. Never knew this. It makes a lot of sense. Do you believe it could still take place?

[Bill]

Isn't there a 'minimum' number of credits that the student must be taking to be enrolled? I thought it was 12 (indeed, back in my day I think 9 was permissible). If so, taking only 12 credits a semester would carry over to the fifth fall.
Engineer
Yes - 12 credits is minimum number for undergrads
9 is for undergrads

And don't forget - a player can still be eligible in for their last season with less credits than the numbers I listed, but only if those credits are the final requirements to fulfill graduation requirements.
Example: you can have an undergrad - or grad student - play their last football season taking only 3 credits IF those are the last three needed to finish. I believe former USC QB Matt Leinhart was a good example of this...If I recall correctly he was only taking a 3 credit dance class his last season at USC, because that's all he needed to finish!!

[The Boogie Down]

Dude, I’m still waiting to find out which CAA team isn’t in the Eastern time zone. Please fill us in.

From “Boogie Down” 2AM rant
So you don't see that you're on a sinking ship AND you don't see that not everyone is in your time zone?


You direct a comment to me (not to any CAA team) about my 2AM rants. I reply back to you (not to any CAA team) that not everyone is in your time zone. Now your big comeback asks, "which CAA team isn’t in the Eastern time zone?"

Yikes. I feel sorry for the Big Southish. Football prowess is declining. Football tradition is declining. And in this particular case, even reading comprehension is declining. Hopefully one of the newly added finishing schools can at least offer a course on block quotes.

[KnightoftheRedFlash]

Idaho didn't have an FBS league that would take them, otherwise they'd still be up there. After the WAC folded, they couldn't get an invite to the Mountain West or the Sun Belt, where they had been an affiliate before. All other sports had nowhere else to go but back into the Big Sky so the decision made sense. Had Idaho held out for a couple more years, they could've been in CUSA now. An even worse fit than it is for Delaware right now.

Ultimately, when the "second level" of DI football forms, a league comprised of Idaho, Montana, Montana State, the four Dakota schools and Northern Iowa would make a ton of sense.

New Mexico State was in the same boat and stayed up. Idaho's president wanted to depart FBS and he made it happen.

[Wolffan]

Originally Posted by KPSUL https://www.anygivensaturday.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (https://www.anygivensaturday.com/showthread.php?p=3188933#post3188933)
Here it is again!

https://lehighfootballnation.blogspo...o-joining.html (https://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2013/09/new-hampshire-was-this-close-to-joining.html)

I believe the publication was written/edited by an AGS Member by the same name: Lehigh Football Nation. Could be mistaken but I recall Ursus asking him not to post things credited or referring to his publication.


In my opinion the article is well sourced and very likely accurate. The PL offer was made to UNH in the 2012 timeframe.
Thank you. Never knew this. It makes a lot of sense. Do you believe it could still take place?Interesting article and it makes a lot of sense.

It appears that PL learned their lesson after this one. UNH had absolutely no issue with the PL AI, the roadblock was the regular redshirt ban. Richmond would not come in with the regular redshirt ban. Now the PL regular redshirt ban is going away. Richmond, like UNH 12 years ago, has no issues with the PL AI.

Since Richmond is a good PL 2025 football pickup, just grateful SoCon was insisting on all-sports (no way Richmond is agreeing with that).

Richmond's specific issues with the CAA have not really been articulated (by Richmond) so it is hard to say if Villanova has the same issues and will also be looking elsewhere.

[Sitting Bull]

Originally Posted by KPSUL https://www.anygivensaturday.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (https://www.anygivensaturday.com/showthread.php?p=3188933#post3188933)
Here it is again!

https://lehighfootballnation.blogspo...o-joining.html (https://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2013/09/new-hampshire-was-this-close-to-joining.html)

I believe the publication was written/edited by an AGS Member by the same name: Lehigh Football Nation. Could be mistaken but I recall Ursus asking him not to post things credited or referring to his publication.


In my opinion the article is well sourced and very likely accurate. The PL offer was made to UNH in the 2012 timeframe.
Richmond's specific issues with the CAA have not really been articulated (by Richmond) so it is hard to say if Villanova has the same issues and will also be looking elsewhere.

Key question. So far there’s not even any smoke from Villanova that we’ve heard.

Richmond did state they were unhappy with the direction the CAA has recently taken I.e., adding Hampton, Campbell and NC A&T. Unlike Villanova, these three would be annual match-up’s for Richmond based on the way the CAA is establishing schedules in a more regional manner. That’s not a concern for Villanova as they are playing a northern conference schedule which I haven’t heard any comments of complaint. At most, they would play only 2 CAA members south of them based on the way the league is setting schedules.

If the commissioner is smart, not saying he isn’t as I think he was actually pretty smart on his overall plans to expand the CAA core, he would allow W&M and Villanova to set their game as an annual match-up. I think both schools would support and for Villanova, it would mean only one game annually among the group of Hampton, Towson, Elon, Campbell and NC A&T.

On Richmond, their fanbase is not sold on the move - even those voicing modest support are saying they would find it a positive if Villanova and W&M follow suit. W&M is a hard no and there’s nothing - yet - to indicate Villanova is pursuing PL. The only comments - and it’s just a couple of fans here - is supporting a northeast/AEast league - which is basically the northern side of the CAA.

[ElCid]

Minnesota only has one D1 program as well. Nebraska only has one D1 football program.

Hawaii? Wyoming?

[The Cats]

Key question. So far there’s not even any smoke from Villanova that we’ve heard.

Richmond did state they were unhappy with the direction the CAA has recently taken I.e., adding Hampton, Campbell and NC A&T. Unlike Villanova, these three would be annual match-up’s for Richmond based on the way the CAA is establishing schedules in a more regional manner. That’s not a concern for Villanova as they are playing a northern conference schedule which I haven’t heard any comments of complaint. At most, they would play only 2 CAA members south of them based on the way the league is setting schedules.

If the commissioner is smart, not saying he isn’t as I think he was actually pretty smart on his overall plans to expand the CAA core, he would allow W&M and Villanova to set their game as an annual match-up. I think both schools would support and for Villanova, it would mean only one game annually among the group of Hampton, Towson, Elon, Campbell and NC A&T.

On Richmond, their fanbase is not sold on the move - even those voicing modest support are saying they would find it a positive if Villanova and W&M follow suit. W&M is a hard no and there’s nothing - yet - to indicate Villanova is pursuing PL. The only comments - and it’s just a couple of fans here - is supporting a northeast/AEast league - which is basically the northern side of the CAA.

Richmond does have a habit of moving to a new conference when southern schools are added that they dislike, so this is not the first time...

[KPSUL]

Love to take credit for a win over JMU. We haven’t beaten them since 2014, but we have beaten Delaware like a rented mule for 15 years in the fall games. It took a pandemic & a spring game for the football school celebrate a win! xpeacex

In 2021 you beat JMU 28-27 on October 9th, and I was wrong on location, the game was at Bridgeforth Stadium.

[KPSUL]

Thank you. Never knew this. It makes a lot of sense. Do you believe it could still take place?

I don't think so. I haven't heard any rumors and I'd guess the Patriot would prefer Villanova to round up to the perfect number of 9 football members. I personally have no problem with football sticking it out in the CAA or playing football in the PL. If we did move I'd rather see it all sports, but I doubt that would happen due to the UNH Athletic Dept. budget woes. The offer was twelve years ago, so who knows if it would be tendered again. I also think UNH would not want to abandon its long term football relationship with Maine and URI. Although UNH vs Holy Cross annually could turn into quite a rivalry.

[mainejeff]

I think that UNH (for all sports) and Villanova (for football) would fit in well in the Patriot.

[Go...gate]

Key question. So far there’s not even any smoke from Villanova that we’ve heard.

Richmond did state they were unhappy with the direction the CAA has recently taken I.e., adding Hampton, Campbell and NC A&T. Unlike Villanova, these three would be annual match-up’s for Richmond based on the way the CAA is establishing schedules in a more regional manner. That’s not a concern for Villanova as they are playing a northern conference schedule which I haven’t heard any comments of complaint. At most, they would play only 2 CAA members south of them based on the way the league is setting schedules.

If the commissioner is smart, not saying he isn’t as I think he was actually pretty smart on his overall plans to expand the CAA core, he would allow W&M and Villanova to set their game as an annual match-up. I think both schools would support and for Villanova, it would mean only one game annually among the group of Hampton, Towson, Elon, Campbell and NC A&T.

On Richmond, their fanbase is not sold on the move - even those voicing modest support are saying they would find it a positive if Villanova and W&M follow suit. W&M is a hard no and there’s nothing - yet - to indicate Villanova is pursuing PL. The only comments - and it’s just a couple of fans here - is supporting a northeast/AEast league - which is basically the northern side of the CAA.


W & M is "a hard no" based on what??

Villanova and W & M are certainly not linked at the hip.

[Tribe4SF]

W & M is "a hard no" based on what??

Villanova and W & M are certainly not linked at the hip.

Recent statements from our AD and travel realities. With concessions from the PL on scholarships and redshirting probably not as hard a no as previously.

As to Nova, Sitting Bull is right that making Villanova/W&M an annual game would strengthen the leagues hold on these two.

[Sitting Bull]

W & M is "a hard no" based on what??

Villanova and W & M are certainly not linked at the hip.

Hard no based on 3 examples:
1) Prez Taylor Revelry 15 years ago when the College was evaluating conferences, specifically Patriot, stated it was not the best fit for W&M. The members looked more like each other than we look like them. I think that’s still true.
2) AD Mann stated the Colleges commitment to the CAA just weeks ago with the objective of strengthening the conference.
3) Just more speculation on this one but I don’t think Coach London or the new bbl coach hired from Cornell would be at all in step with going Patriot. Neither would Laycock who is still active behind the scenes at W&M.

The College also just confirmed a $75M upgrade to Kaplan Arena by 2025. I don’t think they are doing that in prep for Patriot League basketball.

On Villanova, not sure what their strategy might be though nothing has been even hinted by them that I’ve heard. We have a deep history with them in football, 37 games in the series so far and playing well before the CAA. Not linked at the hip though very similar on the football aspirations. It was strictly a thought to me that the CAA commissioner should seriously consider linking the two annually on the schedule.

Don’t get me wrong on the Patriot - I like the league, always have. I think it would take something catastrophic- like the mythical CAA implosion or the College in severe financial distress - to see a shift there at this point. Neither are likely in my view.

[FUBeAR]

Don’t think this has been mentioned and FUBeAR would hate to see the Keydets depart the SoCon (again), but besides the $2M exit fee and their rivalry with The Citadel, why wouldn’t VMI be interested in and, potentially, an interesting add ‘target’ for the Patriot League?

Geography and academics seem to fit. Good, close Football rivalry with new PL Team, Richmond (90 previous meetings; Richmond leads 45-40-5). Also, from an all-sports perspective, would think VMI competing against Army & Navy would be appealing for all.

Any thoughts on this from you PL peeps … and from FUBeAR’s VMI freens?

[crusader11]

Interested how the Lafayette folks feel about redshirts being allowed. With no graduate programs they will be at a disadvantage.

HC has the same issue -- pick up a double major or minor.

[crusader11]

College football fans who spend too much time on message boards are all statistical outliers - and that includes us! But check the UNH board. You won't see widespread panic, but then again we are a fairly benign group and not prone to over reaction. You have to join, although I think you might have posted a few times in the past.

Just checked the SpiderNation board. You have to go all the way to #33 post in the Thread to find a Spider Fan that's ok with the move to the PL.

22 of 45 people on the Richmond board approve of the move to the PL.

https://richmond.forums.rivals.com/threads/do-you-approve-of-the-move-to-the-patriot-league.15087/

[Sitting Bull]

W & M is "a hard no" based on what??

Villanova and W & M are certainly not linked at the hip.

Coincidentally the RTD featured a lengthy article this morning from our AD on Richmond’s move, the annual football game and W&Ms position. It’s behind a paywall so I copied a few summarizing paragraphs below.

RTD 5/20/24 quoting AD Brian Mann

“We're proud to be in the CAA. It remains one of the strongest (FCS) conferences in the country. We've had some great success over the last couple of years in that conference and we're going to continue to do everything we can to build strength in it, and use it as a springboard into the (FCS) playoffs and make a deep run, as we did a couple of years ago," said Mann.

"We're going to continue to invest and make sure we're as competitive as possible across the board in all of our sports, year in and year out. As the CAA has grown and changed over the last several years, we plan on having a big role in how that new identity comes to be."

[SFspidur]

But the very next paragraph opens the door to reconsideration as things play out:

Mann added that part of his job is keeping "an eye on the horizon and always evaluating opportunities for William & Mary, and I will continue to do that ... What people have started to realize is that the best thing that we can do is let this changing landscape play out as much as possible, and see where the CAA falls, see how are we able to strengthen under this new membership, because there’s just so much uncertainty about the future."

[Go Green]

But the very next paragraph opens the door to reconsideration as things play out:

Mann added that part of his job is keeping "an eye on the horizon and always evaluating opportunities for William & Mary, and I will continue to do that ... What people have started to realize is that the best thing that we can do is let this changing landscape play out as much as possible, and see where the CAA falls, see how are we able to strengthen under this new membership, because there’s just so much uncertainty about the future."

Sounds like he isn't proactively looking to leave the CAA. But he will if his hand is forced.

I interpret these comments as "we're going to wait and see what Villanova does."

[Sitting Bull]

Sounds like he isn't proactively looking to leave the CAA. But he will if his hand is forced.

I interpret these comments as "we're going to wait and see what Villanova does."

I don’t think Mann wants his legacy to be downsizing on the major sports - which most would view a full move to the PL, with or without Villanova.

I think he’s leaving a door open if something develops in the next few years that allows W&M to upgrade. There will be changes ahead, we know. If W&M could work toward an AAC opportunity, that would be a worthy goal. We have pretty good history with a cluster of those members (Navy, ECU, Temple, etc). The College brings national creds and we’re sandwiched between the States two largest metro markets, Richmond and Norfolk. Those are key factors that can be leveraged.

[mainejeff]

Sounds like he isn't proactively looking to leave the CAA. But he will if his hand is forced.

I interpret these comments as "we're going to wait and see what Villanova does."

Exactly.

Honestly the path to CAA stability is a lot of instability in the short term...

Villanova > Patriot
UNCW > Southern
Charleston > A-10
Hampton & NC A&T > MEAC
Campbell > A-Sun

Maine, UNH, Albany, Bryant > CAA

CAA:

*Maine
*UNH
NU
*Bryant
*Albany
*Stony Brook

Hofstra
*Monmouth
Drexel
*Towson
*W&M
*Elon

[Bill]

Exactly.

Honestly the path to CAA stability is a lot of instability in the short term...

Villanova > Patriot
UNCW > Southern
Charleston > A-10
Hampton & NC A&T > MEAC
Campbell > A-Sun

Maine, UNH, Albany, Bryant > CAA

CAA:

*Maine
*UNH
NU
*Bryant
*Albany
*Stony Brook

Hofstra
*Monmouth
Drexel
*Towson
*W&M
*Elon

Jeff - not trying to be a wise a$$, but where do you see URI in all of this?

[DFW HOYA]

I think he’s leaving a door open if something develops in the next few years that allows W&M to upgrade. There will be changes ahead, we know. If W&M could work toward an AAC opportunity, that would be a worthy goal. We have pretty good history with a cluster of those members (Navy, ECU, Temple, etc). The College brings national creds and we’re sandwiched between the States two largest metro markets, Richmond and Norfolk. Those are key factors that can be leveraged.

The sizes of the AAC facilities don't correspond well with W&M at this time:

South Florida: 69,218
UTSA: 64,000
Memphis: 58,325
ECU: 51,000
UAB: 47,100
Rice: 47,000
Army: 38,000
Navy 34,000
North Texas: 30,850
Tulane: 30,000
Tulsa: 30,000
FAU: 29,571
UNC Charlotte: 15,315, expanding to 21,000
-----------------
William & Mary: 12,672

[wapiti]

If Richmond goes through with this change I predict Richmond's quality of football will fall to the level of of Patriot football rather then Patriot's quality rising up.

[DFW HOYA]

If Richmond goes through with this change I predict Richmond's quality of football will fall to the level of of Patriot football rather then Patriot's quality rising up.

The quality of PL football is better than people give it credit, as some people don't even know they have scholarships. Holy Cross was very good last year and came within one out of bounds play of winning at Boston College. When they're good, Lehigh, Colgate, and Fordham can hold their own with anyone in FCS outside the MVFC.

For the bottom two, well, not as good.

[LUHawker]

To all the Richmond fans out there, I say welcome. We PLers are a proud bunch and UR is a great, like-minded school that will fit well. From the outside, I too see and understand a lot of the anxiety about UR's move to the PL, but I think you're going to quickly find out that this was a pretty wise move because of the less-promoted shifts in the PL.

For starters:
Roster caps have been removed (or at least greatly increased) - this is big because PL squads often lack depth, especially for practicing when injuries start to mount.
The move from 60 to the max 63 scholarships is more symbolic than material in my mind, but reflects the shift within the league to keep up and enhance the PL brand.
The allowing of non-medical red-shirting is HUGE. As others have stated either here or elsewhere, this is the biggest issue within the PL from a competitive standpoint. Holy Cross's covid 5th-years showed what is possible when allowed. It will take 2-3 years to see the full impact but I think even without Richmond the league is poised to improve sharply; with Richmond it accelerates that improvement.
While travel isn't ideal, I think the Richmond faithful will find that trips to Easton, Bethlehem, NYC, Worcester, etc. will be good game-day experiences. Personally, I'm thrilled to be able to go to Lehigh-UR games regularly in my home state. Was there 3 years ago and UR has a great facility - too bad no fans there.

Based on everything I've read, I don't see W&M relocating all its sports to the PL. This would be 'nice' but seems like a long shot in the near term.
As someone else mentioned, there is no smoke coming from Villanova. I think Richmond made this decision completely independent of whatever W&M and/or Nova may or may not do. That said, I think Richmond broke the ice and it will force Nova to confront its situation in the CAA and FCS in general. The PL is the natural home for it.

I hope all the Richmond folks come to see that this is a good move that gives them a stable, long-term home with an improving brand of football. Geographically/culturally, I think Richmond is far less 'southern' than it used to be, so being affiliated with more mid-Atlantic(ish) schools doesn't feel like a stretch for me. Besides, only 3 of the A-10 members (excluding UR) are south of the Mason-Dixon line.

Lastly, while it was a while ago, I seem to recall #14 Lehigh upsetting #3 Richmond in the 1998 Playoffs, which is I think the only time that Richmond has played a PL school in the post-season. xsmiley_wix

[gravalico]

Not sure why it is so hard to see that pretty much everything has changed in the PL. All of the obstacles have been removed. There is literally nothing stopping the PL from competing at the highest levels of FCS football.

I would understand the hate and discontent by the fans if UR was expexted to move down on the amount of schollies and not red shirt and only recruit kids from the top 25% of their class. None of that is in play.

I mean we are already seeing vast improvement in play over the last 3-5 years before the obstacles were removed. There was serious talk of the PL sending two teams to the playoffs last year (Lafayette and HC).

Long story short, this ain't your father's Patriot League.

Sent from my SM-F711U using Tapatalk

[crusader11]

Not sure why it is so hard to see that pretty much everything has changed in the PL. All of the obstacles have been removed. There is literally nothing stopping the PL from competing at the highest levels of FCS football.

I would understand the hate and discontent by the fans if UR was expexted to move down on the amount of schollies and not red shirt and only recruit kids from the top 25% of their class. None of that is in play.

I mean we are already seeing vast improvement in play over the last 3-5 years before the obstacles were removed. There was serious talk of the PL sending two teams to the playoffs last year (Lafayette and HC).

Long story short, this ain't your father's Patriot League.

Sent from my SM-F711U using Tapatalk

Agree across the board with the one exception being the Academic Index. Although, I have an inkling this will be either modified or eradicated moving forward. I don't believe Richmond joins the league if they were knowingly going to handcuff themselves when it comes to recruiting and admitting kids.

[Wolffan]

If Richmond goes through with this change I predict Richmond's quality of football will fall to the level of of Patriot football rather then Patriot's quality rising up.Well, two years ago Holy Cross finished ranked above all the CAA teams (including Richmond) so I'm not sure what that means.

At the same time I'd expect Richmond to contend for the PL championship their first year.

[KPSUL]

22 of 45 people on the Richmond board approve of the move to the PL.

https://richmond.forums.rivals.com/threads/do-you-approve-of-the-move-to-the-patriot-league.15087/

OK, that means 23, a slight majority disapproves. I'm sure the UofR administration was hoping for a much more favorable response.

[KPSUL]

Coincidentally the RTD featured a lengthy article this morning from our AD on Richmond’s move, the annual football game and W&Ms position. It’s behind a paywall so I copied a few summarizing paragraphs below.

RTD 5/20/24 quoting AD Brian Mann

“We're proud to be in the CAA. It remains one of the strongest (FCS) conferences in the country. We've had some great success over the last couple of years in that conference and we're going to continue to do everything we can to build strength in it, and use it as a springboard into the (FCS) playoffs and make a deep run, as we did a couple of years ago," said Mann.

"We're going to continue to invest and make sure we're as competitive as possible across the board in all of our sports, year in and year out. As the CAA has grown and changed over the last several years, we plan on having a big role in how that new identity comes to be."

If W&M want to make the CAA stronger, and more stable then they should band together with the CAA-F only members (Maine, UNH, URI, Albany and Villanova) and use the leverage gained from Richmond's departure to force a change to the CAA-F charter, or by-laws, whereby future applications to join CAA-F, be they from CAA members or otherwise, must be approved by a vote of all members of CAA-F. Due to a loophole in the rules that has existed since its founding, currently the CAA-F must admit any CAA all sports member to CAA-F even if they've been a CAA member for less than 5 minutes. This is how Monmouth, Hampton, NC A&T and Campbell recently became CAA-F members. Members (and particularly founding members) of CAA Football should NOT have to deal with the effects of such extensive changes in conference composition without having a vote in the matter! This is the most impactful thing that could be done to assuage the uncertainty that now exists in CAA Football. (Monmouth, Hampton, NC A&T and Campbell supporters I'm not disparaging your school or football program. In fact, it would make just as much sense for your ADs to support this Charter or by-law change now that you are playing football in the CAA-F.)

[Franks Tanks]

Don’t think this has been mentioned and FUBeAR would hate to see the Keydets depart the SoCon (again), but besides the $2M exit fee and their rivalry with The Citadel, why wouldn’t VMI be interested in and, potentially, an interesting add ‘target’ for the Patriot League?

Geography and academics seem to fit. Good, close Football rivalry with new PL Team, Richmond (90 previous meetings; Richmond leads 45-40-5). Also, from an all-sports perspective, would think VMI competing against Army & Navy would be appealing for all.

Any thoughts on this from you PL peeps … and from FUBeAR’s VMI freens?

The Patriot League has been in very good shape for a long time as an all sports conference. With full members Army, Navy, Boston U, American and Loyola not playing football in the league, football always felt a bit vulnerable. Then again, football membership has been static for 22ish years so the league was quite stable. I don’t think any other FCS conference other than the Ivies have enjoyed such stability.

With the addition of Richmond in football, we don’t really need new members in any form. With that being said, VMI would be a reasonable addition. They’ve always seemed to have a southern orientation and have been among the northern most schools in their conferences. I’d venture to guess not too many VMI alums live north of Philadelphia and they have virtually no history with PL schools. VMI likely prefers being in a conference that expands south from Lexington rather than north.

[DFW HOYA]

With the addition of Richmond in football, we don’t really need new members in any form. With that being said, VMI would be a reasonable addition. They’ve always seemed to have a southern orientation and have been among the northern most schools in their conferences. I’d venture to guess not too many VMI alums live north of Philadelphia and they have virtually no history with PL schools. VMI likely prefers being in a conference that expands south from Lexington rather than north.

VMI's connection with The Military College of South Carolina is too strong than to consider realigning outside the Southern.

[FUBeAR]

The Patriot League has been in very good shape for a long time as an all sports conference. With full members Army, Navy, Boston U, American and Loyola not playing football in the league, football always felt a bit vulnerable. Then again, football membership has been static for 22ish years so the league was quite stable. I don’t think any other FCS conference other than the Ivies have enjoyed such stability.

With the addition of Richmond in football, we don’t really need new members in any form. With that being said, VMI would be a reasonable addition. They’ve always seemed to have a southern orientation and have been among the northern most schools in their conferences. I’d venture to guess not too many VMI alums live north of Philadelphia and they have virtually no history with PL schools. VMI likely prefers being in a conference that expands south from Lexington rather than north.
Surprised to learn you are 100% correct - VMI only has 29 prior all-time meetings with the 7 PL Football Schools, other than Richmond, and the Keydets have never played Fordham.

Happy to keep ‘em coming south. FUBeAR has always liked the Keydets, in a frenemy kinda way.

[FUBeAR]

VMI's connection with The Military College of South Carolina is too strong than to consider realigning outside the Southern.
They didn’t feel that way in 2003 when, after 8 decades of SoCon membership, they decided to wander in the non-SoCon wilderness for 10 years.

[DFW HOYA]

They didn’t feel that way in 2003 when, after 8 decades of SoCon membership, they decided to wander in the non-SoCon wilderness for 10 years.

A lesson learned.

[Go...gate]

Don’t think this has been mentioned and FUBeAR would hate to see the Keydets depart the SoCon (again), but besides the $2M exit fee and their rivalry with The Citadel, why wouldn’t VMI be interested in and, potentially, an interesting add ‘target’ for the Patriot League?

Geography and academics seem to fit. Good, close Football rivalry with new PL Team, Richmond (90 previous meetings; Richmond leads 45-40-5). Also, from an all-sports perspective, would think VMI competing against Army & Navy would be appealing for all.

Any thoughts on this from you PL peeps … and from FUBeAR’s VMI freens?

Agree wholeheartedly.

[JimKLU72]

Or son-in-law's brother had a full ride at VMI for soccer. We spent a day on campus and took in a game and the overall ambiance. It drips southern tradition beyond anything I can explain. Scarlett and Rhett Butler still roam the halls..... VMI isn't headed north anytime soon.

[NY Crusader 2010]

They didn’t feel that way in 2003 when, after 8 decades of SoCon membership, they decided to wander in the non-SoCon wilderness for 10 years.

At the time, they just were completely unable to compete. Probably averaged at most 2 wins per year over the 10 year stretch prior to that. They joined the Big South because there would in theory be more winnable games. Unfortunately for VMI, it didn't quite work out. Up-and-coming programs like Liberty and Coastal owned them. Glad they went back to the SoCon where they belong and that they seem to have become more competitive lately. Big series resumption with W&M coming up. The Tribe beat the Keydets at least 25 straight times starting in 1986 until whenever the series ended.

[caribbeanhen]

Don’t think this has been mentioned and FUBeAR would hate to see the Keydets depart the SoCon (again), but besides the $2M exit fee and their rivalry with The Citadel, why wouldn’t VMI be interested in and, potentially, an interesting add ‘target’ for the Patriot League?

Geography and academics seem to fit. Good, close Football rivalry with new PL Team, Richmond (90 previous meetings; Richmond leads 45-40-5). Also, from an all-sports perspective, would think VMI competing against Army & Navy would be appealing for all.

Any thoughts on this from you PL peeps … and from FUBeAR’s VMI freens?

Yep

Rip Van Rocco is from the foothills of Pennsylvania so this makes sense… plus Danny needs to get that Bison Dung off the back

[FUBeAR]

Or son-in-law's brother had a full ride at VMI for soccer. We spent a day on campus and took in a game and the overall ambiance. It drips southern tradition beyond anything I can explain. Scarlett and Rhett Butler still roam the halls..... VMI isn't headed north anytime soon.
LOL … even after they exiled Stonewall off campus at a cost of ~$200k in 2020? You should schedule a visit to The Citadel soon. They still believe, there, that The War of Northern Aggression is just in a period of an extended cease-fire.

[TribeNomad1]

LOL … even after they exiled Stonewall off campus at a cost of ~$200k in 2020? You should schedule a visit to The Citadel soon. They still believe, there, that The War of Northern Aggression is just in a period of an extended cease-fire.


Agree. Many of the male members of my family (inc. father) were Keydets. Years ago when we were doing college tours we popped by Lexington and I indicated I felt the S. Jackson statue on the Parade grounds would never succumb to the Marxist overlords. I was wrong.....VMI and their neighbor Washington & Lee do look very very Southern, but have been pecked at just like every other traditional institution in this country.

[ElCid]

The Patriot League has been in very good shape for a long time as an all sports conference. With full members Army, Navy, Boston U, American and Loyola not playing football in the league, football always felt a bit vulnerable. Then again, football membership has been static for 22ish years so the league was quite stable. I don’t think any other FCS conference other than the Ivies have enjoyed such stability.

With the addition of Richmond in football, we don’t really need new members in any form. With that being said, VMI would be a reasonable addition. They’ve always seemed to have a southern orientation and have been among the northern most schools in their conferences. I’d venture to guess not too many VMI alums live north of Philadelphia and they have virtually no history with PL schools. VMI likely prefers being in a conference that expands south from Lexington rather than north.

I think VMI may have a slightly higher percentage of in state cadets than us, but I'm sure they have more from the northeast than you think. We have mid 50% in state and 7%+ from PA north. NY and PA are the #6 and #7 most represented states in the Corps. We have cadets from almost all states, and a bunch of countries in any given year. I bet VMI isn't much difference. Being from NJ myself, I was actually surprised at the number from there. But as mentioned, I'm not sure that they will detach from us again. They should have never left when they did.

[ElCid]

LOL … even after they exiled Stonewall off campus at a cost of ~$200k in 2020? You should schedule a visit to The Citadel soon. They still believe, there, that The War of Northern Aggression is just in a period of an extended cease-fire.

It isn't? Huh?

[KnightoftheRedFlash]

Or son-in-law's brother had a full ride at VMI for soccer. We spent a day on campus and took in a game and the overall ambiance. It drips southern tradition beyond anything I can explain. Scarlett and Rhett Butler still roam the halls..... VMI isn't headed north anytime soon.

Good. Southern culture is the best one in America.


LOL … even after they exiled Stonewall off campus at a cost of ~$200k in 2020? You should schedule a visit to The Citadel soon. They still believe, there, that The War of Northern Aggression is just in a period of an extended cease-fire.

Neither side won the war. We all fell under the chains.


Agree. Many of the male members of my family (inc. father) were Keydets. Years ago when we were doing college tours we popped by Lexington and I indicated I felt the S. Jackson statue on the Parade grounds would never succumb to the Marxist overlords. I was wrong.....VMI and their neighbor Washington & Lee do look very very Southern, but have been pecked at just like every other traditional institution in this country.

Yup. Cultural genocide at work. Washington & Lee should be ashamed of themselves. West Point also whitewashed history.


I think VMI may have a slightly higher percentage of in state cadets than us, but I'm sure they have more from the northeast than you think. We have mid 50% in state and 7%+ from PA north. NY and PA are the #6 and #7 most represented states in the Corps. We have cadets from almost all states, and a bunch of countries in any given year. I bet VMI isn't much difference. Being from NJ myself, I was actually surprised at the number from there. But as mentioned, I'm not sure that they will detach from us again. They should have never left when they did.

Yankees ruin everything.

[Bill]

It isn't? Huh?
It took 331 posts in this thread, but CitDog would have had a field day with all of this :D

[Pards Rule]

Good question. PL may prefer to have an even 8 teams that allows 3 OOC games. Any more adds, puts more restrictions on schedule flexibility. I see the academic index remaining. It was one of the driving issues in the League’s creation.

Ngineer that would be 7 games in PL and 4 OOC. I like the 5 OOC instead

[Pards Rule]

Maybe we’ll still schedule you but you’ll have to play in Orono.

Im looking to a trip to Orono, ME!

[Lehigh'98]

Welcome Richmond! The Patriot League is starting to look like a very formidable conference. If/when Villanova joins, it's the premier Eastern FCS Football league. Finally stopped trying to appease the Ivies and now we might have some excitement!

[WestCoastAggie]

So is it are these conferences collectively strong or is it a specific subset of teams throughout conferences that raise all tides?

[KPSUL]

Im looking to a trip to Orono, ME!

That would be 1st prize! 2nd prize would be 2 trips to Orono, ME.

[KPSUL]

So is it are these conferences collectively strong or is it a specific subset of teams throughout conferences that raise all tides?

All the CAA needs to counteract the effect of Richmond's departure is for NC A&T to put the kind of team on the field they had 2013 - 2019.

[ncspiderfan]

OK, that means 23, a slight majority disapproves. I'm sure the UofR administration was hoping for a much more favorable response.

Let me start with I do not think administration cares what the fans think, but that of course is my opinion. They had a shot to get with more academically similar schools and jumped.

Of the 22 in favor, it is likely 100% think Richmond BB is the major sport and only thing that will gain the school any attention and they are likely right. Problem is they have been to the NCAA tournament 3 times in the last 19 years and the conference they are in is quickly becoming one bid. Many there seem to slight the National Championship in FCS as a non-issue.

[ncspiderfan]

Agree across the board with the one exception being the Academic Index. Although, I have an inkling this will be either modified or eradicated moving forward. I don't believe Richmond joins the league if they were knowingly going to handcuff themselves when it comes to recruiting and admitting kids.

i do not know exactly how Academic Index works but Richmond's coach Huesman said that of the 60 recruits lately about 45 had PL offers as well during the press conference announcing the change so they see PL a lot, surprisingly he said they did not see W&M as much when recruiting those guys. He would not go into recruiting much past making that point.

Just my opinion, but Richmond is not going to offer a player they do not think will leave without a Richmond degree if they want one. That might answer your question, like I say I do not know anything about how it works.

[Go...gate]

It took 331 posts in this thread, but CitDog would have had a field day with all of this :D

Oh, yes!

[Pards Rule]

That would be 1st prize! 2nd prize would be 2 trips to Orono, ME.

Jim I would prefer to see you again in Durham

[Wolffan]

i do not know exactly how Academic Index works but Richmond's coach Huesman said that of the 60 recruits lately about 45 had PL offers as well during the press conference announcing the change so they see PL a lot, surprisingly he said they did not see W&M as much when recruiting those guys. He would not go into recruiting much past making that point.

Just my opinion, but Richmond is not going to offer a player they do not think will leave without a Richmond degree if they want one. That might answer your question, like I say I do not know anything about how it works.The Academic Index is not at all a concern to Richmond (why would it be?) but they were a bit concerned regarding the redshirt rules and apparently that has been worked out to their satisfaction.

[Go...gate]

The Academic Index is not at all a concern to Richmond (why would it be?) but they were a bit concerned regarding the redshirt rules and apparently that has been worked out to their satisfaction.

I like the academic index but many are opposed to it.

[Wolffan]

I like the academic mindex but many are opposed to it.I think most PL football fans like the idea of football players as reasonably representative of the student body in terms of academic qualifications. Some see the PL AI as necessary, some see the PL AI as unnecessary, and some are thoroughly ambivalent (don’t know/don’t care about PL AI).

[ncspiderfan]

The Academic Index is not at all a concern to Richmond (why would it be?) but they were a bit concerned regarding the redshirt rules and apparently that has been worked out to their satisfaction.

Just info but Coach Huesman is big on redshirting where possible and developing team in house. They get a few transfers to fill holes each year. My guess is that would have been the reason Spiders were concerned about RS rules.

Figure you are right about Academic Index, one semester I think I remember 53 of the FB players made the honor roll, think it might have been last spring.

[DFW HOYA]

Figure you are right about Academic Index, one semester I think I remember 53 of the FB players made the honor roll, think it might have been last spring.

The Academic Index isn't about making Honor Roll, it's about being admitted. Any UR recruits under a 1200 SAT are in for a surprise as the PL sets a floor roughly 217 points below the mean SAT at the school.

[Franks Tanks]

The Academic Index isn't about making Honor Roll, it's about being admitted. Any UR recruits under a 1200 SAT are in for a surprise as the PL sets a floor roughly 217 points below the mean SAT at the school.

Yes, I think many posters on this thread are not at all familiar with the Academic Index. I have no doubt Richmond accepts football players they believe will be successful in the classroom. They have to. Richmond is a small school with significantly difficult academic standards and nowhere to hide weak students. It does no good to accept players that can’t stay eligible or graduate.

But, the AI is a different ballgame. It’s a formula based on GPA, standardized test scores and class rank that spits out a number. A player doesn’t meet the AI floor? Sorry, you’re not getting admitted.

[Mike296]

Yes, I think many posters on this thread are not at all familiar with the Academic Index. I have no doubt Richmond accepts football players they believe will be successful in the classroom. They have to. Richmond is a small school with significantly difficult academic standards and nowhere to hide weak students. It does no good to accept players that can’t stay eligible or graduate.

But, the AI is a different ballgame. It’s a formula based on GPA, standardized test scores and class rank that spits out a number. A player doesn’t meet the AI floor? Sorry, you’re not getting admitted.

The PL has always intrigued me in that its unique rules regarding academics are what sets them apart from a lot of other schools. I’m probably one of the few that thinks that the AI rule is probably fine for these schools. Could it be tweaked to where it still makes sense but allows the conference to be better overall? That’s something I can’t answer. The redshirt rule being in place for as long as it was always baffled me.

[Go...gate]

The PL has always intrigued me in that its unique rules regarding academics are what sets them apart from a lot of other schools. I’m probably one of the few that thinks that the AI rule is probably fine for these schools. Could it be tweaked to where it still makes sense but allows the conference to be better overall? That’s something I can’t answer. The redshirt rule being in place for as long as it was always baffled me.

I'm with you.

[DFW HOYA]

I'm with you.

It wasn't baffling, it was to protect the schools (primarily Holy Cross and Lafayette) which could not offer post-graduate programs for a fifth year senior.

[Go...gate]

It wasn't baffling, it was to protect the schools (primarily Holy Cross and Lafayette) which could not offer post-graduate programs for a fifth year senior.

Getting rid of the AI would be helpful to Georgetown, correct?

[Mike296]

Getting rid of the AI would be helpful to Georgetown, correct?
Sometimes I seriously wonder why Georgetown even has a Football team if they aren’t really going to do anything with it in a scholarship league? If they schedule Marist every year why not just make them a conference team and just join the Pioneer league?
At least in the Pioneer they’d probably be more competitive than they are in the Patriot, and they probably wouldn’t have to spend as much money on the program. I don’t really know the full story on why Georgetown only has scholarships in a few sports? The rest are essentially non scholarship from my limited understanding of the university. I know Georgetown is historically a basketball school that’s fallen on hard times.

[bonarae]

Sometimes I seriously wonder why Georgetown even has a Football team if they aren’t really going to do anything with it in a scholarship league? If they schedule Marist every year why not just make them a conference team and just join the Pioneer league?
At least in the Pioneer they’d probably be more competitive than they are in the Patriot, and they probably wouldn’t have to spend as much money on the program. I don’t really know the full story on why Georgetown only has scholarships in a few sports? The rest are essentially non scholarship from my limited understanding of the university. I know Georgetown is historically a basketball school that’s fallen on hard times.

xoutofrepx

Read DFW HOYA's posts on this situation/dilemma. Those posts are all over AGS, made within the past few months or so.

[Mike296]

xoutofrepx

Read DFW HOYA's posts on this situation/dilemma. Those posts are all over AGS, made within the past few months or so.
I definitely will, I guess I’m rocking a boat that doesn’t need to be.

[Wolffan]

It wasn't baffling, it was to protect the schools (primarily Holy Cross and Lafayette) which could not offer post-graduate programs for a fifth year senior.If that was the theory, permitting “medical redshirts” for all these years in the PL would seem to violate it.

Beyond that, Holy Cross made liberal use of 5th years during the Covid 5th year era. I have heard zero rumbles that Holy Cross wants to see a ban on regular redshirting continue as the last of the Covid- cohort moves out.

I suspect the ban on regular redshirts had just as much to do with watered-down Ivy copycatting than anything else. (Similar to the now-defunct ban on football athletic scholarships and the little-understood PL AI) No surprise it’s going bye-bye and the only surprise was it took so long.

[Pards Rule]

Sometimes I seriously wonder why Georgetown even has a Football team if they aren’t really going to do anything with it in a scholarship league? If they schedule Marist every year why not just make them a conference team and just join the Pioneer league?
At least in the Pioneer they’d probably be more competitive than they are in the Patriot, and they probably wouldn’t have to spend as much money on the program. I don’t really know the full story on why Georgetown only has scholarships in a few sports? The rest are essentially non scholarship from my limited understanding of the university. I know Georgetown is historically a basketball school that’s fallen on hard times.

Mike, hello. I actually looked up APU last year when some folks on here posited we might play you folks in Clarksville TN in the first round of the playoffs. Basically right at the border. Anyways I do agree with your assessment here and believe its warranted.

[Pards Rule]

I looked up Leopards 2025 schedule. UR still isnt on it. Interestingly we have two FBS opponents - first game at Bowling Green (first time playing them) and at a potentially beautiful West Point game vs Army mid October. I presume they would keep these two games but punt probably Stonehill or Sacred Heart or Columbia (Princeton also on there)?

[Go...gate]

I looked up Leopards 2025 schedule. UR still isnt on it. Interestingly we have two FBS opponents - first game at Bowling Green (first time playing them) and at a potentially beautiful West Point game vs Army mid October. I presume they would keep these two games but punt probably Stonehill or Sacred Heart or Columbia (Princeton also on there)?

Army games with AAC opponents may change things.

[caribbeanhen]

I looked up Leopards 2025 schedule. UR still isnt on it. Interestingly we have two FBS opponents - first game at Bowling Green (first time playing them) and at a potentially beautiful West Point game vs Army mid October. I presume they would keep these two games but punt probably Stonehill or Sacred Heart or Columbia (Princeton also on there)?

I guess you won’t have to worry about finding free parking in Newark again …. Kind of sad

[Pards Rule]

I guess you won’t have to worry about finding free parking in Newark again …. Kind of sad


Exactly! Just when we are on a huge upswing. If DeNobile didnt go down on mid 3rd in that playoff game in November. Would LOVE a revisit with Blue Hens. How many OOC games can they do, if any?

[ncspiderfan]

Yes, I think many posters on this thread are not at all familiar with the Academic Index. I have no doubt Richmond accepts football players they believe will be successful in the classroom. They have to. Richmond is a small school with significantly difficult academic standards and nowhere to hide weak students. It does no good to accept players that can’t stay eligible or graduate.

But, the AI is a different ballgame. It’s a formula based on GPA, standardized test scores and class rank that spits out a number. A player doesn’t meet the AI floor? Sorry, you’re not getting admitted.

Thanks for explanation.

Wondered exactly how it worked.

I am guessing and not in the know, but Spider standards I would think would not take much adjusting to meet that standard now, if at all.

[Pards Rule]

Thanks for explanation.

Wondered exactly how it worked.

I am guessing and not in the know, but Spider standards I would think would not take much adjusting to meet that standard now, if at all.

Hello NCSpider...Im ready to go to RIC for a game! Never been to any of the Lafayette-UR games but now you are in the PL (welcome) do you know if in 2025 the Pards (lol note - Pards is nickname for Leopards) will start with Spiders at RIC or in Easton?

[rhowdyram]

All the CAA needs to counteract the effect of Richmond's departure is for NC A&T to put the kind of team on the field they had 2013 - 2019.

And for Rhode Island to take another step when the Meade renovation is complete. I'm obviously biased, but I think we've almost never maximized our potential as a football school and that's almost entirely due to our substandard stadium.

[KPSUL]

And for Rhode Island to take another step when the Meade renovation is complete. I'm obviously biased, but I think we've almost never maximized our potential as a football school and that's almost entirely due to our substandard stadium.

I sort of think you guys arrived about 6 years ago. Although you are right, based on the talent you've had, URI didn't reach its max potential. As far as your stadium, URI is about my favorite place to see an away UNH game. Although recently I've sat on the Ryan Center side. I've got a lot of respect for the patience of Coach Fleming. I recall a URI game on the road against one of the best JMU teams - maybe 8 years ago. JMU scored 70+ points and there was a lot of complaints about JMU running up the score on a CAA mate, but Jim Fleming wanted to hear none of it.

[ncspiderfan]

Hello NCSpider...Im ready to go to RIC for a game! Never been to any of the Lafayette-UR games but now you are in the PL (welcome) do you know if in 2025 the Pards (lol note - Pards is nickname for Leopards) will start with Spiders at RIC or in Easton?

Thanks for the welcome.

I am guessing the schedules get set in the spring for PL? The CAA seemed to set them about that time as I remember, but have heard nothing to this point.

[rhowdyram]

I sort of think you guys arrived about 6 years ago. Although you are right, based on the talent you've had, URI didn't reach its max potential. As far as your stadium, URI is about my favorite place to see an away UNH game. Although recently I've sat on the Ryan Center side. I've got a lot of respect for the patience of Coach Fleming. I recall a URI game on the road against one of the best JMU teams - maybe 8 years ago. JMU scored 70+ points and there was a lot of complaints about JMU running up the score on a CAA mate, but Jim Fleming wanted to hear none of it.


I sit on the Ryan Center side myself for now, I refuse to sit in the main stands. I don't find the main stands safe, but then when you combine the sightlines and access to the Ryan Center for me it's a no brainer. Hopefully the renovation will make the main stands just as good.

Fleming is totally maddening for me. He brings in more talent than any coach since Floyd Keith, but then just like Keith he doesn't seem to maximize it. There are so many just sloppy, unnecessary penalties and there are some in game decisions that just make no sense. The 2018 Maine game where we led 36-35 with 51 seconds left and were kicking off from Maine's 35 due to penalties and lost on a 39 yard field goal as time expired is the perfect encapsulating of this. We were good enough to have the game practically won against a 10-4 Maine team that made the semifinals, yet we just booted the last kick off out of the end zone instead of trying an onside kick or squib kick to make Maine make a play there. On Maine's drive we had two too many players on the field penalties to help them win, one after an incompletion, one after they went out of bounds, so you can't even blame it on them hurrying. If you just hold on there you make the playoffs instead of just missing out. Again. Just maddening, but the good news is I've clearly gotten over it completely.

We seem to have hit the ceiling of what Fleming can do here, which leaves a tough decision for the AD. He's got us in better position than we've been in decades yet he doesn't seem to be able to get us into the playoffs.

[crusader11]

I sit on the Ryan Center side myself for now, I refuse to sit in the main stands. I don't find the main stands safe, but then when you combine the sightlines and access to the Ryan Center for me it's a no brainer. Hopefully the renovation will make the main stands just as good.


Rhowdy -- Any chance that the season-opener against Holy Cross sells out? Would you advise buying tickets beforehand?

[rhowdyram]

Rhowdy -- Any chance that the season-opener against Holy Cross sells out? Would you advise buying tickets beforehand?

Normally I would say I don't anticipate it selling out, but they're including the game in mini plans that also include Homecoming or Family Weekend, so I think a lot of supply will be taken up by people looking to get into one of the other games. I'd advise buying beforehand just to be safe, plus they add $5 a ticket for day of sales. Single game tickets go on sale 7/10.

There is plenty of free parking available, but they don't allow tailgating in the free lots. Passes for the tailgating lot can be bought for $15 ahead of time or $20 at the gate and there's plenty of spots in the tailgating lot for the crowds we get. Tailgating starts 4 hours before the game.

One thing to keep in mind, between Labor Day weekend beach traffic and URI dorm move-in, build in more time than normal for everything. The Holy Cross game falls on day 2 of 4 for dorm move-in.

I'll be looking for this type of advice next year if the game is at Fitton. I'll probably skip it if it's at Polar Park.

[crusader11]

Normally I would say I don't anticipate it selling out, but they're including the game in mini plans that also include Homecoming or Family Weekend, so I think a lot of supply will be taken up by people looking to get into one of the other games. I'd advise buying beforehand just to be safe, plus they add $5 a ticket for day of sales. Single game tickets go on sale 7/10.

There is plenty of free parking available, but they don't allow tailgating in the free lots. Passes for the tailgating lot can be bought for $15 ahead of time or $20 at the gate and there's plenty of spots in the tailgating lot for the crowds we get. Tailgating starts 4 hours before the game.

One thing to keep in mind, between Labor Day weekend beach traffic and URI dorm move-in, build in more time than normal for everything. The Holy Cross game falls on day 2 of 4 for dorm move-in.

I'll be looking for this type of advice next year if the game is at Fitton. I'll probably skip it if it's at Polar Park.

Fortunately, it looks like the Polar Park game is not going to be an annual thing (thank god).

Given the size of Fitton (23,000), you can easily get tickets walking up on the day of the game.

Tailgating is a pretty good scene on Freshman Field, which is a short walk into Fitton. More info on tailgating guidelines: https://goholycross.com/news/2023/8/30/football-know-before-you-go-fan-experience-at-fitton-field-in-2023.aspx

Of note, beginning this season, HC is flipping the "home" and "away" sections (https://goholycross.com/news/2024/4/10/football-holy-cross-announces-football-game-day-experience-updates.aspx). The home side will be the one closes to 290. This has seen mixed reviews. I'm taking a wait and see approach.

[TJT]

I'll be looking for this type of advice next year if the game is at Fitton. I'll probably skip it if it's at Polar Park.


Any true Rhode Islander would never step foot in Polar Park.

[caribbeanhen]

Any true Rhode Islander would never step foot in Polar Park.

Is it next to MacArthur Park ?

[Bill]

Is it next to MacArthur Park ?
If I had a witty Richard Harris or Donna Summer reference, I would place it here.

[FUBeAR]

If I had a witty Richard Harris or Donna Summer reference, I would place it here.
No need for wit. A gif is worth 612 words, at least.
https://i.makeagif.com/media/8-01-2015/jsK1VY.gif

[Sader87]

Any true Rhode Islander would never step foot in Polar Park.

The Red Sox moved their AAA affiliate to Woo from Pawtucket, RI..... if people not from the region were wondering.

[caribbeanhen]

No need for wit. A gif is worth 612 words, at least.
https://i.makeagif.com/media/8-01-2015/jsK1VY.gif


impressive that you got the color of the icing, but it’s not flowing down…..

[Go...gate]

No need for wit. A gif is worth 612 words, at least.
https://i.makeagif.com/media/8-01-2015/jsK1VY.gif

I don't think that I can take it,
'Cause it took so long to bake it,
And I'll never have that recipe again.....

[FUBeAR]

impressive that you got the color of the icing, but it’s not flowing down…..
…yet. Keep watching. It’s a really long gif

[NY Crusader 2010]

The Red Sox moved their AAA affiliate to Woo from Pawtucket, RI..... if people not from the region were wondering.

Pretty crazy how Worcester went from no affiliated pro baseball to a AAA team overnight. Red Sox AA squad has been in Portland, ME as long as I can remember.

[Bill]

Pretty crazy how Worcester went from no affiliated pro baseball to a AAA team overnight. Red Sox AA squad has been in Portland, ME as long as I can remember.

Yes - it's amazing how fast sports owners will show up with their teams as soon as the public throws enough money at them!xrotatehx

[rhowdyram]

Any true Rhode Islander would never step foot in Polar Park.

I was trying to keep things civil. I certainly won't for the fake PawSox. I could see myself finding a way to take a massive dump in Polar Park if the Rams play there though, while hoping the Rams do the same to the Crusaders.

[Sader87]

I think the Polar Park HC games are done for awhile now....Larry Lucchino was a friend of HC alumnus Edward Bennett Williams but with his passing, I think the Red Sox-HC connection has been severed for now.

Fine with me....those games had zero charisma for me anyway.

[KPSUL]

I think the Polar Park HC games are done for awhile now....Larry Lucchino was a friend of HC alumnus Edward Bennett Williams but with his passing, I think the Red Sox-HC connection has been severed for now.

Fine with me....those games had zero charisma for me anyway.

Is there any reason why they don't want, or can't have, stadium lights at Fitton Field?

[Go...gate]

Any rumblings on Villanova to the PL?

Clearly William and Mary is a bridge too far.

[Wolffan]

Is there any reason why they don't want, or can't have, stadium lights at Fitton Field?Stadium is football-only (23.5K capacity, natural grass) so permanently installed lighting for 1-2 home September games would be poor bang-for-buck. Neighboring HC baseball stadium, BTW, has lights.

[Sader87]

HC has used temporary lighting at Fitton Field a few times this Century....more of a "cost thing" as Wolffan said above

[DFW HOYA]

HC has used temporary lighting at Fitton Field a few times this Century....more of a "cost thing" as Wolffan said above

I recall a game with UMass under the lights, so at this point it's a function of the opponent: no PL teams will reach the cost-benefit quotient of a night game, but if a TV network swung a deal to get Army or BC in town for a night game, they return.

[NY Crusader 2010]

I recall a game with UMass under the lights, so at this point it's a function of the opponent: no PL teams will reach the cost-benefit quotient of a night game, but if a TV network swung a deal to get Army or BC in town for a night game, they return.

UMass in 2011 was the inaugural night game. We played UNH the following year and Monmouth in 2013. HC 0-3 in those games. Don't think we've played a night game at FITTON since.

[Sader87]

UMass in 2011 was the inaugural night game. We played UNH the following year and Monmouth in 2013. HC 0-3 in those games. Don't think we've played a night game at FITTON since.

We haven't....I think non-Homecoming or non-Family Weekend games against the likes of Harvard, Yale, UNH or Fordham might warrant a "night game." HC has started moving their kick-off times a bit lately, a few 2 PM kick-offs etc....but I'd like to see more late afternoon, night games moving forward..... would hopefully bring more fans/excitement to Fitton.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Here it is again!

https://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2013/09/new-hampshire-was-this-close-to-joining.html

I believe the publication was written/edited by an AGS Member by the same name: Lehigh Football Nation. Could be mistaken but I recall Ursus asking him not to post things credited or referring to his publication.

In my opinion the article is well sourced and very likely accurate. The PL offer was made to UNH in the 2012 timeframe.

It was and I think Ursus did xlolx. I can confirm all the UNH details and stand by them.

[KPSUL]

We haven't....I think non-Homecoming or non-Family Weekend games against the likes of Harvard, Yale, UNH or Fordham might warrant a "night game." HC has started moving their kick-off times a bit lately, a few 2 PM kick-offs etc....but I'd like to see more late afternoon, night games moving forward..... would hopefully bring more fans/excitement to Fitton.

I believe you guys play Harvard, Yale and UNH this season. I like going to games at Fitton, I'll be there again this season. All time series record stands at 9 and 9.

[taper]

Stadium is football-only (23.5K capacity, natural grass) so permanently installed lighting for 1-2 home September games would be poor bang-for-buck. Neighboring HC baseball stadium, BTW, has lights.
I grew up in a rural ND town of ~15k people. Our HS FB generally sucked. We once had to borrow uniforms from the local college because our locker room burned down.
We had lights.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I've been working on a mega-piece which details all the history of Richmond and W&M and conference membership. I feel pretty strongly that in order to understand the whole situation you really need to go through the history of UR and W&M from the division split, the I-AA split and the history of the Yankee Conference (and all its iterations). It's so massive and covers the entire history of I-AA/FCS, so I think I might have to split it into multiple pieces. It's not ideal, but I realized that this history hasn't really been written by anyone. Everyone has pieces of the puzzle (like UNH knows the YankCon piece) but there's a lot to digest.

I have a lot of feelings about UR to the PL. Obviously I love it competition-wise. It makes the PL better. I'm trying to put it all into my mega-piece, and my thinking has shifted around a bit since the announcement, but I'm wondering (thinking) this may be a one-off.

[Wolffan]

I grew up in a rural ND town of ~15k people. Our HS FB generally sucked. We once had to borrow uniforms from the local college because our locker room burned down.
We had lights.
I lived in El Paso (Texas) for a while right next to a high school that played games on Friday nights…under the lights.

[Wolffan]

I believe you guys play Harvard, Yale and UNH this season. I like going to games at Fitton, I'll be there again this season. All time series record stands at 9 and 9.
HC v UNH is a great matchup and I’ve watched (on TV) the last 6 or 7 games. With Coach Curran (a UNH grad) coming aboard I hope to see the game played almost every year going forward.

[Pards Rule]

I lived in El Paso (Texas) for a while right next to a high school that played games on Friday nights…under the lights.

Ah yes the site of Lafayettes never played Sun Bowl of 1949 (look up Sun Bowl 1949). Back ten UTEP was Texas College of Mines. My longtome paper and still today Philly Inquirer reporter Buzz Bissinger wrote Friday Night Lights (he is long retired)

[Pards Rule]

Any rumblings on Villanova to the PL?

Clearly William and Mary is a bridge too far.

Just say no!!

[Go Green]

HC v UNH is a great matchup and I’ve watched (on TV) the last 6 or 7 games. With Coach Curran (a UNH grad) coming aboard I hope to see the game played almost every year going forward.

Long overdue, if you ask me. A shame that they didn't play in the 2000s when both had some excellent teams.

And I'm pretty sure Harvard is to blame. UNH always has had a "take on all comers" mentality. Harvard (at least under Tim Murphy) did not.

[DFW HOYA]

Ah yes the site of Lafayettes never played Sun Bowl of 1949 (look up Sun Bowl 1949). Back ten UTEP was Texas College of Mines. My longtome paper and still today Philly Inquirer reporter Buzz Bissinger wrote Friday Night Lights (he is long retired)

Probably 98 percent of Texas HS football, from six-man enrollments of 20 students right up to schools with enrollments topping 6,000, take place on Friday night. A handful play on Thursday and/or Saturday night in cities which can't accommodate multiple schools playing at home that share the same stadium. For many schools, it's freshman teams playing Wednesday night, JV Thursday night, varsity on Friday.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Long overdue, if you ask me. A shame that they didn't play in the 2000s when both had some excellent teams.

And I'm pretty sure Harvard is to blame. UNH always has had a "take on all comers" mentality. Harvard (at least under Tim Murphy) did not.

Tim Murphy, who once flipped a Lehigh home game to a Harvard home game after the season had started, saw Lehigh beat them in their place in that game, then never scheduled us again? That Tim Murphy?

[NY Crusader 2010]

Tim Murphy, who once flipped a Lehigh home game to a Harvard home game after the season had started, saw Lehigh beat them in their place in that game, then never scheduled us again? That Tim Murphy?

At least you got to play (and beat) Merrimack at Harvard Stadium.

[Pards Rule]

I looked it up and we are all time 2-0 vs Spiders. Sept 2004 we beat them in RIC 21-16 and then in Easton Sept 2005 we won 7-0

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I looked it up and we are all time 2-0 vs Spiders. Sept 2004 we beat them in RIC 21-16 and then in Easton Sept 2005 we won 7-0

I remember both of them. The 2004 game Lafayette scored right at the end of iirc. I watched the 2004 game in Philly while I was a student at Temple as it was on local TV.

[Pards Rule]

I remember both of them. The 2004 game Lafayette scored right at the end of iirc. I watched the 2004 game in Philly while I was a student at Temple as it was on local TV.

That I cant recall but take your word for it. I wish I had gone to the Easton game

[Sader87]

HC and Richmond have only met once on the gridiron. A 36-22 Crusader victory at Fitton during HoF, HC, HC Dr Eddie Anderson's final campaign on the Hill in the year of our Lord 1964.

[KPSUL]

At least you got to play (and beat) Merrimack at Harvard Stadium.

Merrimack could have, and in fact should have won that game. They were up 21-7 with 5 minutes left in the 4th Qtr. Harvard scored twice in the last 5 minutes to tie it up and then won it in OT.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Merrimack could have, and in fact should have won that game. They were up 21-7 with 5 minutes left in the 4th Qtr. Harvard scored twice in the last 5 minutes to tie it up and then won it in OT.

Was talking about when Lehigh played Merrimack at Harvard Stadium last year. Bad storms resulted in power outages in North Andover so they moved the game. Merrimack probably should've one that one too!

I remember following the Merrimack=Harvard game on GameCast. And you're right the Warriors had that game.

[Go...gate]

I've been working on a mega-piece which details all the history of Richmond and W&M and conference membership. I feel pretty strongly that in order to understand the whole situation you really need to go through the history of UR and W&M from the division split, the I-AA split and the history of the Yankee Conference (and all its iterations). It's so massive and covers the entire history of I-AA/FCS, so I think I might have to split it into multiple pieces. It's not ideal, but I realized that this history hasn't really been written by anyone. Everyone has pieces of the puzzle (like UNH knows the YankCon piece) but there's a lot to digest.

I have a lot of feelings about UR to the PL. Obviously I love it competition-wise. It makes the PL better. I'm trying to put it all into my mega-piece, and my thinking has shifted around a bit since the announcement, but I'm wondering (thinking) this may be a one-off.

If it is. in fact, only a "one-off", it is a nevertheless a great addition.

- - - Updated - - -


I've been working on a mega-piece which details all the history of Richmond and W&M and conference membership. I feel pretty strongly that in order to understand the whole situation you really need to go through the history of UR and W&M from the division split, the I-AA split and the history of the Yankee Conference (and all its iterations). It's so massive and covers the entire history of I-AA/FCS, so I think I might have to split it into multiple pieces. It's not ideal, but I realized that this history hasn't really been written by anyone. Everyone has pieces of the puzzle (like UNH knows the YankCon piece) but there's a lot to digest.

I have a lot of feelings about UR to the PL. Obviously I love it competition-wise. It makes the PL better. I'm trying to put it all into my mega-piece, and my thinking has shifted around a bit since the announcement, but I'm wondering (thinking) this may be a one-off.

If it is. in fact, only a "one-off", it is a nevertheless a great addition.

[Pards Rule]

Tim Murphy, who once flipped a Lehigh home game to a Harvard home game after the season had started, saw Lehigh beat them in their place in that game, then never scheduled us again? That Tim Murphy?

Yep! And reminds me of Penns Al Bagnoli who told his AD after losses to Lafayette NOT to schedule them again!

[Lehigh Football Nation]

So here's the first part of my massive overcomplicated deep dive into the Richmond football program and it's long, winding journey to the Patriot League. Part I - Divisional Splits Lead To SoCon Divorce

https://www.college-sports-journal.com/the-richmond-spiders-patriot-league-tale-part-one-divisional-splits-lead-to-socon-divorce/

https://www.college-sports-journal.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/06/URoverWM1973.jpg


Richmond has been a master at surviving – they have been, and continue to be, the spider that cannot be stomped. In this series, you’ll see why.

[Go Green]

Yep! And reminds me of Penns Al Bagnoli who told his AD after losses to Lafayette NOT to schedule them again!

I wouldn't put that past Bagnoli, but it sure looks like the AD ignored him.

https://pennathletics.com/sports/football/opponent-history/lafayette-college/78

[Pards Rule]

I wouldn't put that past Bagnoli, but it sure looks like the AD ignored him.

https://pennathletics.com/sports/football/opponent-history/lafayette-college/78

I presume it was after the 2011 and 2012 losses. In 2011, we were 24 point underdogs and won going away. 2012 we won too and so a swing in that era our way vs Quakers. I think the 2013 game was baked and back then ADs didnt like to disrupt a year away. It was courtesy back then. After the 2013 game, note the next 6 years without a game.

[Pards Rule]

I wouldn't put that past Bagnoli, but it sure looks like the AD ignored him.

https://pennathletics.com/sports/football/opponent-history/lafayette-college/78

Go Green wth is that April 26, 1989 game listed? A JV game. I dont think we had a JV team in my association with Lafayette since my frosh year 1980-81. A baseball add by mistake?

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Go Green wth is that April 26, 1989 game listed? A JV game. I dont think we had a JV team in my association with Lafayette since my frosh year 1980-81. A baseball add by mistake?

I saw some highlights from the Lafayette vs Penn game in 1988 during this montage. I might have asked this in the past, is Lafayette's 1988 win over #1 Holy Cross the only time a PL ever beat a #1 ranked team? #2 UMass was the highest ranked team Lehigh beat on their way to the 1977 D2 Title. Lafayette got as high as #5 in 1988. The loss to the Quakers knocked them from the rankings which seemed a bit harsh. Interestingly, the 'Pards played Mercyhurst that season....


https://youtu.be/kiGfY9RXPAs

[bonarae]

Meanwhile... are the Ivy coaches setting bad examples for themselves by ducking their usual opponents in the past, especially in football? xsighx

[Bill]

Well done Chuck!

[Go...gate]

Yep! And reminds me of Penns Al Bagnoli who told his AD after losses to Lafayette NOT to schedule them again!

Bagnoli rarely wanted to play Colgate, either.

[Go Green]

Meanwhile... are the Ivy coaches setting bad examples for themselves by ducking their usual opponents in the past, especially in football? xsighx

The flip side is Ivy coaches may genuinely want to travel to different places for all types of good reasons.

And there's nothing wrong with taking a break from someone that you've played 10 straight years. I have the fullest respect for Holy Cross, Colgate, and UNH. But playing them every year from 1998 to 2010 (or whatever) got a little tiresome...

[Go Green]

Go Green wth is that April 26, 1989 game listed? A JV game. I dont think we had a JV team in my association with Lafayette since my frosh year 1980-81. A baseball add by mistake?

Most likely. Could also have been a lacrosse game.

[Go Green]

Bagnoli rarely wanted to play Colgate, either.

In Bagnoli's defense, he regularly played Villanova when they were tough.

It would be understandable and defensible to use his other OOC games against more manageable opponents (Georgetown, Duquesne).

[garland823]

So here's the first part of my massive overcomplicated deep dive into the Richmond football program and it's long, winding journey to the Patriot League. Part I - Divisional Splits Lead To SoCon Divorce

https://www.college-sports-journal.com/the-richmond-spiders-patriot-league-tale-part-one-divisional-splits-lead-to-socon-divorce/



Great read, really enjoyed the big picture discussion about college football in Virginia and SoCon in that era in particular. I've been hearing the VMI perspective about all that all my life. Interesting to have some insight on what the other schools were thinking.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Great read, really enjoyed the big picture discussion about college football in Virginia and SoCon in that era in particular. I've been hearing the VMI perspective about all that all my life. Interesting to have some insight on what the other schools were thinking.

Investigating/researching the historical backdrop of college football in Virginia is one of the more fascinating undertakings for any fanatic. Arguably, the 1970s into the early 1980s was the most compelling time period of all because of the seismic changes the formation of 1-A/1-AA created. Not to mention the increasing "nationalization" of college football as a result of growing exposure TV brought about. Virginia, Virginia Tech, VMI, Richmond, and W&M all operated on the same plane despite obvious differences/subtle nuances. Virginia really struggled in the 1960s and 1970s to the point where the Cavaliers very well might have been the worst "major" (based on ACC affiliation) college football program during that time frame. Meanwhile, Virginia Tech was experiencing modest to reasonable success. Institutionally, VT was extremely comfortable existing in anonymity in the beautiful Blue Ridge Mountains, football was expected not to contradict their place in the world. The institution's identity was rooted far more in the Corps of Cadets and technical mission, not college football. I'm old enough to remember when more people referred to the school as VPI than Virginia Tech. Generally speaking, Virginia Tech owns one of higher education's more engrossing history. As the school's profile evolved, so did the composition of college athletics in Virginia.

What remains interesting to me is how W&M was not able to keep up despite its location and historical pedigree. They should not have lost touch with UVA and especially Virginia Tech. However, certain political/social forces created some deviation of the "perfect storm" to relegate W&M to "second class". VMI never had a chance and despite Richmond being very similar to Wake Forest, was already on the outside looking in to the point no amount of increased institutional wealth was going to change their athletic program's position by the late 1970s, early 1980s. However, their 1988 Sweet 16 appearance and 1991 win over #2 seed Syracuse certainly kept Spider Athletics on the national consciousness.

[WestCoastAggie]

Great read, really enjoyed the big picture discussion about college football in Virginia and SoCon in that era in particular. I've been hearing the VMI perspective about all that all my life. Interesting to have some insight on what the other schools were thinking.

Yeah. This was a very fascinating read. I couldn't read this and think about the racial tension in America at that time. I suppose quite a bit of the angst in the NCAA had to not only do with the expansion of Television, but the growing pains that came from integration.

[Sitting Bull]

Investigating/researching the historical backdrop of college football in Virginia is one of the more fascinating undertakings for any fanatic. Arguably, the 1970s into the early 1980s was the most compelling time period of all because of the seismic changes the formation of 1-A/1-AA created. Not to mention the increasing "nationalization" of college football as a result of growing exposure TV brought about. Virginia, Virginia Tech, VMI, Richmond, and W&M all operated on the same plane despite obvious differences/subtle nuances. Virginia really struggled in the 1960s and 1970s to the point where the Cavaliers very well might have been the worst "major" (based on ACC affiliation) college football program during that time frame. Meanwhile, Virginia Tech was experiencing modest to reasonable success. Institutionally, VT was extremely comfortable existing in anonymity in the beautiful Blue Ridge Mountains, football was expected not to contradict their place in the world. The institution's identity was still rooted far more in the Core of Cadets and Technical mission not college football. I'm old enough to remember when more people referred to the school as VPI not Virginia Tech. Generally speaking, Virginia Tech owns one of higher education's more engrossing history. As the school's profile evolved, so did the composition of college athletics in Virginia.

What remains interesting to me is how W&M was not able to keep up despite its location and historical pedigree. They should not have lost touch with UVA and especially Virginia Tech. However, certain political/social forces created some deviation of the "perfect storm" to relegate W&M to "second class". VMI never had a chance and despite Richmond being very similar to Wake Forest, was already on the outside looking in to the point no amount of increased institutional wealth was going to change their athletic program's position by the late 1970s, early 1980s. However, their 1988 Sweet 16 appearance and 1991 win over #2 seed Syracuse certainly kept Spider Athletics on the national consciousness.

There’s a beautiful coffee table style book - Goal to Goal - written by two W&M alums that covers 100 years of W&M football. The book ends around 1992. For anyone resourcing W&M football, there’s no better place for research.

It’s been covered on this sight before but 1971 was the pivotal year on W&Ms program direction - which in brief went from an ACC push for membership to an “Ivy” approach (which resulted in the initial Colonial League membership). FCS actually saved W&M football in many respects providing a winning platform opportunity and a league of outstanding rivals (UR, JMU, Villanova, Delaware, Elon).

[Go...gate]

So here's the first part of my massive overcomplicated deep dive into the Richmond football program and it's long, winding journey to the Patriot League. Part I - Divisional Splits Lead To SoCon Divorce

https://www.college-sports-journal.com/the-richmond-spiders-patriot-league-tale-part-one-divisional-splits-lead-to-socon-divorce/

https://www.college-sports-journal.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/06/URoverWM1973.jpg


Great read!

[Sader87]

So here's the first part of my massive overcomplicated deep dive into the Richmond football program and it's long, winding journey to the Patriot League. Part I - Divisional Splits Lead To SoCon Divorce

https://www.college-sports-journal.com/the-richmond-spiders-patriot-league-tale-part-one-divisional-splits-lead-to-socon-divorce/

https://www.college-sports-journal.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/06/URoverWM1973.jpg

Interesting read, thanks for posting.

One could tell a somewhat similar story about Holy Cross athletics (football and basketball primarily) during that same time period of the early 1970s to today.

[DFW HOYA]

One could tell a somewhat similar story about Holy Cross athletics (football and basketball primarily) during that same time period of the early 1970s to today.

How does history change if the Jesuit provincial had assigned Donald Monan to Holy Cross and John Brooks to BC in 1970?

[Tribe4SF]

Investigating/researching the historical backdrop of college football in Virginia is one of the more fascinating undertakings for any fanatic. Arguably, the 1970s into the early 1980s was the most compelling time period of all because of the seismic changes the formation of 1-A/1-AA created. Not to mention the increasing "nationalization" of college football as a result of growing exposure TV brought about. Virginia, Virginia Tech, VMI, Richmond, and W&M all operated on the same plane despite obvious differences/subtle nuances. Virginia really struggled in the 1960s and 1970s to the point where the Cavaliers very well might have been the worst "major" (based on ACC affiliation) college football program during that time frame. Meanwhile, Virginia Tech was experiencing modest to reasonable success. Institutionally, VT was extremely comfortable existing in anonymity in the beautiful Blue Ridge Mountains, football was expected not to contradict their place in the world. The institution's identity was rooted far more in the Core of Cadets and Technical mission, not college football. I'm old enough to remember when more people referred to the school as VPI than Virginia Tech. Generally speaking, Virginia Tech owns one of higher education's more engrossing history. As the school's profile evolved, so did the composition of college athletics in Virginia.

What remains interesting to me is how W&M was not able to keep up despite its location and historical pedigree. They should not have lost touch with UVA and especially Virginia Tech. However, certain political/social forces created some deviation of the "perfect storm" to relegate W&M to "second class". VMI never had a chance and despite Richmond being very similar to Wake Forest, was already on the outside looking in to the point no amount of increased institutional wealth was going to change their athletic program's position by the late 1970s, early 1980s. However, their 1988 Sweet 16 appearance and 1991 win over #2 seed Syracuse certainly kept Spider Athletics on the national consciousness.

A primary factor in W&M's evolution was a change in leadership. Davis Paschall retired as President in 1971 and was replaced by Thomas Graves. We went from a rabid supporter of athletics to a guy who simply didn't care. When the I-AA decision was made later on there was no administrative support to remain I-A and the change was clearly the best choice under the circumstances at the time.

[Pards Rule]

A primary factor in W&M's evolution was a change in leadership. Davis Paschall retired as President in 1971 and was replaced by Thomas Graves. We went from a rabid supporter of athletics to a guy who simply didn't care. When the I-AA decision was made later on there was no administrative support to remain I-A and the change was clearly the best choice under the circumstances at the time.

UGH - we had that with President Arthur Rothkopf...bad era for Pards. Hope to play in Wburg soon?

[NY Crusader 2010]

A primary factor in W&M's evolution was a change in leadership. Davis Paschall retired as President in 1971 and was replaced by Thomas Graves. We went from a rabid supporter of athletics to a guy who simply didn't care. When the I-AA decision was made later on there was no administrative support to remain I-A and the change was clearly the best choice under the circumstances at the time.

W&M athletic history (especially football) is very similar to Holy Cross in a lot of ways. We could've been Big East, you guys could've been ACC. Both major college football until the I-A/I-AA split. Holy Cross' old school traditional rivals were the likes of BC, Providence, UConn and Army. William & Mary has old connections to Virginia Tech, UVA, East Carolina and the Naval Academy.

[Go Green]

Investigating/researching the historical backdrop of college football in Virginia is one of the more fascinating undertakings for any fanatic. Arguably, the 1970s into the early 1980s was the most compelling time period of all because of the seismic changes the formation of 1-A/1-AA created. Not to mention the increasing "nationalization" of college football as a result of growing exposure TV brought about. Virginia, Virginia Tech, VMI, Richmond, and W&M all operated on the same plane despite obvious differences/subtle nuances. Virginia really struggled in the 1960s and 1970s to the point where the Cavaliers very well might have been the worst "major" (based on ACC affiliation) college football program during that time frame. Meanwhile, Virginia Tech was experiencing modest to reasonable success. Institutionally, VT was extremely comfortable existing in anonymity in the beautiful Blue Ridge Mountains, football was expected not to contradict their place in the world. The institution's identity was rooted far more in the Core of Cadets and Technical mission, not college football. I'm old enough to remember when more people referred to the school as VPI than Virginia Tech. Generally speaking, Virginia Tech owns one of higher education's more engrossing history. As the school's profile evolved, so did the composition of college athletics in Virginia.

What remains interesting to me is how W&M was not able to keep up despite its location and historical pedigree. They should not have lost touch with UVA and especially Virginia Tech. However, certain political/social forces created some deviation of the "perfect storm" to relegate W&M to "second class". VMI never had a chance and despite Richmond being very similar to Wake Forest, was already on the outside looking in to the point no amount of increased institutional wealth was going to change their athletic program's position by the late 1970s, early 1980s. However, their 1988 Sweet 16 appearance and 1991 win over #2 seed Syracuse certainly kept Spider Athletics on the national consciousness.

According to this blog entry, W&M was not invited to the ACC because of academic scandals with the football team a few years earlier.

#StayAtHome Series: “The Scandal of 1951” – The William and Mary Sports Blog (wmsportsblog.com) (https://wmsportsblog.com/2020/03/31/the-scandal-of-1951/)

[Tribe4SF]

According to this blog entry, W&M was not invited to the ACC because of academic scandals with the football team a few years earlier.

#StayAtHome Series: “The Scandal of 1951” – The William and Mary Sports Blog (wmsportsblog.com) (https://wmsportsblog.com/2020/03/31/the-scandal-of-1951/)

While that may have been true in 1954, the potential move to the ACC in the early 1970s was not affected by the scandal.

[DFW HOYA]

A look back at the Washington Post archives revealed three items:

1. William & Mary and Virginia were early names discussed but the prevailing football power among the seven schools leaving (Duke) was not in favor of adding more members, so as to maintain intersectional rivalries elsewhere.

2. West Virginia wanted in but as has been the case so often in ACC lore, the other schools were not interested.

3. Virginia, an independent, entered into some back channel conversations between AD's that assuaged Duke. W&M appears to have simply backed off.

4. An article in the Washington Post dated June 18, 1953 is a tremendous conference realignment what-if: an ACC plan to add three more schools within two years, each of which were dissatisfied in their current setup: Florida, Georgia and...Pennsylvania. It's been said elsewhere that Penn, reluctant to join the Ivy League and thus downgrade what was a nationally prominent program, was institutionally uncomfortable with the de facto segregation policy adopted by all eight ACC schools.

[ngineer]

Sometimes I seriously wonder why Georgetown even has a Football team if they aren’t really going to do anything with it in a scholarship league? If they schedule Marist every year why not just make them a conference team and just join the Pioneer league?
At least in the Pioneer they’d probably be more competitive than they are in the Patriot, and they probably wouldn’t have to spend as much money on the program. I don’t really know the full story on why Georgetown only has scholarships in a few sports? The rest are essentially non scholarship from my limited understanding of the university. I know Georgetown is historically a basketball school that’s fallen on hard times.

I would think travel expenses would be very much higher.

[ngineer]

No need for wit. A gif is worth 612 words, at least.
https://i.makeagif.com/media/8-01-2015/jsK1VY.gifxbowx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

A look back at the Washington Post archives revealed three items:

1. William & Mary and Virginia were early names discussed but the prevailing football power among the seven schools leaving (Duke) was not in favor of adding more members, so as to maintain intersectional rivalries elsewhere.

2. West Virginia wanted in but as has been the case so often in ACC lore, the other schools were not interested.

3. Virginia, an independent, entered into some back channel conversations between AD's that assuaged Duke. W&M appears to have simply backed off.

4. An article in the Washington Post dated June 18, 1953 is a tremendous conference realignment what-if: an ACC plan to add three more schools within two years, each of which were dissatisfied in their current setup: Florida, Georgia and...Pennsylvania. It's been said elsewhere that Penn, reluctant to join the Ivy League and thus downgrade what was a nationally prominent program, was institutionally uncomfortable with the de facto segregation policy adopted by all eight ACC schools.

Penn had a lot of issues with the Ivy League, not least the fact that Penn were pioneers in televising games (and I think were tempted to go it alone as a result). If I remember right they were the last school to sign the Ivy Agreement and almost didn't.

[Go Green]

It's been said elsewhere that Penn, reluctant to join the Ivy League and thus downgrade what was a nationally prominent program, was institutionally uncomfortable with the de facto segregation policy adopted by all eight ACC schools.

Penn tried to have it both ways for a while by playing both a nationally competitive schedule along with the schools that eventually formed the Ivy.

It didn't work.

Eventually, Penn threw in the towel and went full-blown Ivy.

[DFW HOYA]

Penn tried to have it both ways for a while by playing both a nationally competitive schedule along with the schools that eventually formed the Ivy.
It didn't work.


The 1953 Penn football schedule:
Vanderbilt
Penn St.
California
Ohio St. (#17)
Navy (#10)
Michigan (#16)
Notre Dame (#1)
Army
Cornell
Average home attendance: 48,626

[TribeNomad1]

The 1953 Penn football schedule:
Vanderbilt
Penn St.
California
Ohio St. (#17)
Navy (#10)
Michigan (#16)
Notre Dame (#1)
Army
Cornell
Average home attendance: 48,626


Those were the days...then the greedy networks got involved.

- - - Updated - - -

[CrusaderBob]

How does history change if the Jesuit provincial had assigned Donald Monan to Holy Cross and John Brooks to BC in 1970?

Would not, could not have happened because John E. Brooks, SJ reportedly hated BC.

At his funeral, Kevin Condron, '67, then Chairman of the Board at HC, told a story about Fr. Brooks relating his wishes for his funeral. Fr. Brooks told Condron that with respect to music at the funeral that the song "On Eagles Wings" was verboten. According to Condron Fr. Brooks said "There aren't going to be any eagles at this Crusader's funeral!" xnodxxlolx

I suspect if assigned to BC, his vow of obedience would have been severely tested.

[DFW HOYA]

Would not, could not have happened because John E. Brooks, SJ reportedly hated BC.

At his funeral, Kevin Condron, '67, then Chairman of the Board at HC, told a story about Fr. Brooks relating his wishes for his funeral. Fr. Brooks told Condron that with respect to music at the funeral that the song "On Eagles Wings" was verboten. According to Condron Fr. Brooks said "There aren't going to be any eagles at this Crusader's funeral!" xnodxxlolx

I suspect if assigned to BC, his vow of obedience would have been severely tested.

I suspect it goes without saying what would have have been his response if the search committee at Georgetown had called. They hired the president at Saint Louis around this same time.

[Leopard Loyalist]

Most likely. Could also have been a lacrosse game.

Not that anyone cares, but just for the record, the 9-5 game between Penn and Lafayette on April 26, 1989 was a women's lacrosse game.

[Pards Rule]

Not that anyone cares, but just for the record, the 9-5 game between Penn and Lafayette on April 26, 1989 was a women's lacrosse game.

Thank you! The Sept 2007 win - at 8-7 - was indeed a football game. Penn took intentional safety very late and the Pards drove and the frosh kicker Davis Rodriguez kicked I think it was a 29 yarder to win. I listened to it sitting next to my car radio, bleeding in and out, as I was at Long Beach Island NJ that weekend. I celebrated at Marlin, Hudson House and Nardis that night!

[NY Crusader 2010]

I saw some highlights from the Lafayette vs Penn game in 1988 during this montage. I might have asked this in the past, is Lafayette's 1988 win over #1 Holy Cross the only time a PL ever beat a #1 ranked team? #2 UMass was the highest ranked team Lehigh beat on their way to the 1977 D2 Title. Lafayette got as high as #5 in 1988. The loss to the Quakers knocked them from the rankings which seemed a bit harsh. Interestingly, the 'Pards played Mercyhurst that season....


https://youtu.be/kiGfY9RXPAs

That season, Lafayette tied eventual Ivy co-champ Cornell, which dropped them from #7 to #18 in I-AA. The loss to Penn the following week dropped them from the rankings.

[bulldog10jw]

Penn tried to have it both ways for a while by playing both a nationally competitive schedule along with the schools that eventually formed the Ivy.

It didn't work.

Eventually, Penn threw in the towel and went full-blown Ivy.

Most alumni and others with influence over Ivy sports in the late forties and early fifties favored inviting Colgate to be a member. It was considered the best fit historically considering their scheduling resume with the other Ivy schools, especially their Thanksgiving games with Brown. Not sure which Ivy schools were still scheduling Penn at the time, maybe just Cornell.

What won the day for Penn was location, location, location. Philadelphia over Hamilton. The Ivy League would be in Boston, New York, and Philadelphia.

[KnightoftheRedFlash]

Those were the days...then the greedy networks got involved.

- - - Updated - - -

Greedy networks? Blame the NCAA for limiting TV rights. The 1984 Supreme Court was powered by two schools breaking the NCAA's stranglehold. The networks offered the nation more than one or two games a week.

[Go...gate]

Most alumni and others with influence over Ivy sports in the late forties and early fifties favored inviting Colgate to be a member. It was considered the best fit historically considering their scheduling resume with the other Ivy schools, especially their Thanksgiving games with Brown. Not sure which Ivy schools were still scheduling Penn at the time, maybe just Cornell.

What won the day for Penn was location, location, location. Philadelphia over Hamilton. The Ivy League would be in Boston, New York, and Philadelphia.

That is correct. Colgate was very close to being the eighth Ivy member.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Most alumni and others with influence over Ivy sports in the late forties and early fifties favored inviting Colgate to be a member. It was considered the best fit historically considering their scheduling resume with the other Ivy schools, especially their Thanksgiving games with Brown. Not sure which Ivy schools were still scheduling Penn at the time, maybe just Cornell.

What won the day for Penn was location, location, location. Philadelphia over Hamilton. The Ivy League would be in Boston, New York, and Philadelphia.

Colgate-Brown used to be almost as big a deal, if not as big as BC-Holy Cross. We're talking about the 1930's and 1940's of course.

[DFW HOYA]

That is correct. Colgate was very close to being the eighth Ivy member.

Many schools claim this but there is no hard evidence the Ivies had other schools in mind.

I wonder if the then-Colgate Athletic Field, where the Red Raiders only played twice a season, was considered suitable for the Ivy Brahmin:

https://www.cardcow.com/images/set455/card00275_fr.jpg

[TJT]

The stadiums for Ivy members Yale, Penn, and Harvard were once massive by the then standards of the day in the early part of the 20th century.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Those were the days...then the greedy networks got involved.

- - - Updated - - -

Quite the contrary...

When former Minnesota Governor Stassen left the Land of 10,000 Lakes for UPenn in 1948 he sought to increase/regain the Quakers place in the world of college athletics by bringing a "Big 10 Mentality". When the NCAA introduced the 1948 'Sanity Code', Penn was already pushing the boundaries of what was deemed "amateur athletics". One of the first things Stassen did was hire Fran Murray, in large part due to his experience in the NFL, as the AD. The two combined forces to align Penn football closely with Notre Dame, not HYP. In fact, for a short time in the early to mid 1950s Penn had the second most (trailing only Notre Dame) lucrative TV contract in the country. The schedule DFW posted was the direct result of Penn's 1951, 3-year $850,000 agreement with ABC. The actual payout would end up being less and to this day the figure remains vague; likely somewhere in the $200,00 per year, $600,000 total range.

Penn quickly gave up their blatant commercialization of football to join the formal Ivy League in 1956. By doing so they agreed to reduce media exposure as the IL institutions focused on gate receipts as the primary revenue generator. Penn was also forced to cut back/eliminate scholarships and other support systems Quaker football players enjoyed that their new IL peer generally did not by the early 1950s. In needs to be noted, shortly after Penn signed their lucrative ABC contract, the NCAA voted to reduce TV converge in an attempt to help ALL schools increase their ticket sales.

[Go...gate]

Many schools claim this but there is no hard evidence the Ivies had other schools in mind.

I wonder if the then-Colgate Athletic Field, where the Red Raiders only played twice a season, was considered suitable for the Ivy Brahmin:

https://www.cardcow.com/images/set455/card00275_fr.jpgby

Actually, there is "hard evidence". Colgate was formed by the same Baptist theological society as Brown and the schools have historical links. As to athletics, Colgate competed in major and minor sports with all the schools we presently know of as the Ivy League, which prior to World War II was known as the "Ivy Group" Colgate , as well as Annapolis and West Point, willingly followed the Ivy Group's academic and recruiting principles.

With regard to stadium capacity, Colgate expected to follow a course similar to Dartmouth, which had comparably sized football facilities and often played Ivy opponents on the road until the early/mid 1960's.

The evidence can be found in the Colgate University Archives along with other documents and things such as scheduling agreements which Colgate entered into with not only the individual Ivy institutions but also the Council of Ivy Group Presidents (the corporate name for the Ivy League).

[DFW HOYA]

Are there better photos of Colgate Athletic Field? All I could find at this time online was that attendance topped out at 10,000 or so, and that wasn't going to work with comparable Ivy stadium capacities of the day:

Franklin Field: 70,000+
Yale Bowl: 70,000
Palmer Stadium: 42,000
Harvard Stadium (w/end zone seats): 40,000
Baker Field: 35,000
Schoellkopf Field: 26,000
Memorial Field: 22,000
Brown Stadium: 20,000

[Go...gate]

Are there better photos of Colgate Athletic Field? All I could find at this time online was that attendance topped out at 10,000 or so, and that wasn't going to work with comparable Ivy stadium capacities of the day:

Franklin Field: 70,000+
Yale Bowl: 70,000
Palmer Stadium: 42,000
Harvard Stadium (w/end zone seats): 40,000
Baker Field: 35,000
Schoellkopf Field: 26,000
Memorial Field: 22,000
Brown Stadium: 20,000

The original "Colgate Athletic Field" (later named for Andy Kerr in 1966) had an official stated capacity of 20,000 for many years. Capacity was reduced during the 1970s; however, Colgate drew 18,000 for a game against Rutgers on September 10, 1977 and 14,500 for a game against Holy Cross on October 5, 1982. In 1991, the stadium was renovated and the seating capacity further reduced to 10,221.

A couple of corrections on your Ivy League numbers: Palmer Stadium's capacity was 45,725, while Soldiers Field/Harvard Stadium exceeded 50,000 with end zone seats.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Are there better photos of Colgate Athletic Field? All I could find at this time online was that attendance topped out at 10,000 or so, and that wasn't going to work with comparable Ivy stadium capacities of the day:

Franklin Field: 70,000+
Yale Bowl: 70,000
Palmer Stadium: 42,000
Harvard Stadium (w/end zone seats): 40,000
Baker Field: 35,000
Schoellkopf Field: 26,000
Memorial Field: 22,000
Brown Stadium: 20,000

In terms of financial "fit" with institutional composition, Lehigh, Lafayette, and NYU seemed better positioned. However, I do not discredit Colgate's relationship/potential affiliation with the Ancient 8. With that said, there are documented relationships/assimilation practices that, in hindsight naturally, indicated future institutional decisions/alliances. For instance, going back to the late 1920s, all eventual IL members plus Amherst, Williams, Lehigh, NYU, and Wesleyan met with Carnegie Foundation to better steward Eastern college football.

According to my reading/discussions there was some sort of IL "consignment" (allowing some type of external agency to dictate/influence policy/direction) in the mid 1940s that nearly fell apart as the result of HYP's desire to withdraw from "commercialized college athletics" and the resistance such an ideological stance created. Then in the early 1950s the Ivy Group was formed which quickly morphed into the Ivy League. Obviously, at any time point from the beginning of organized college athletics, late 19th century early 20th century depending on criteria, there were probably 20-25 institutions who could have aligned to form the collection of institutions who would be deemed the apex of American higher education and the purveyors of what the definition of intercollegiate amateur athletics is.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

We need some of our IL friends to chime in further about the evolution of the relationships. If nothing else, this is quality offseason banter as the season grows closer. I'm looking forward to LFN's Part 2....

[bonarae]

We need some of our IL friends to chime in further about the evolution of the relationships. If nothing else, this is quality offseason banter as the season grows closer. I'm looking forward to LFN's Part 2....

Can I post this on the Ivy Voy board? Or better yet, you need to visit them there. For some reason they would not join us here.

[Go...gate]

Can I post this on the Ivy Voy board? Or better yet, you need to visit them there. For some reason they would not join us here.


It still exists? I posted on it for many years.

[Go Green]

Are there better photos of Colgate Athletic Field? All I could find at this time online was that attendance topped out at 10,000 or so, and that wasn't going to work with comparable Ivy stadium capacities of the day:

Franklin Field: 70,000+
Yale Bowl: 70,000
Palmer Stadium: 42,000
Harvard Stadium (w/end zone seats): 40,000
Baker Field: 35,000
Schoellkopf Field: 26,000
Memorial Field: 22,000
Brown Stadium: 20,000

Memorial Field didn't expand to 22,000 until the early 1970s when it was agreed that every Ivy should play home-and-home against each other. Prior to that, Dartmouth (and other smaller Ivies) would regularly visit Harvard, Yale, Princeton, and Penn because they could attract a bigger gate.

When the Ivy was officially formed in the 1950s, Memorial Field was thereabouts 10,000 capacity (i.e., the permanent structure on the home side and some cheap-ass bleachers on the away side). Of course, that was still likely more than whatever Colgate's capacity was before it expanded to Kerr Stadium.

[DFW HOYA]

Memorial Field didn't expand to 22,000 until the early 1970s when it was agreed that every Ivy should play home-and-home against each other. Prior to that, Dartmouth (and other smaller Ivies) would regularly visit Harvard, Yale, Princeton, and Penn because they could attract a bigger gate.

When the Ivy was officially formed in the 1950s, Memorial Field was thereabouts 10,000 capacity (i.e., the permanent structure on the home side and some cheap-ass bleachers on the away side). Of course, that was still likely more than whatever Colgate's capacity was before it expanded to Kerr Stadium.

Thanks for the clarification. Were there any other Ivy schools which would play at the larger stadiums each year for the gate? Judging by some of the schedules in that era, Colgate did much the same thing.

[Go Green]

Thanks for the clarification. Were there any other Ivy schools which would play at the larger stadiums each year for the gate? Judging by some of the schedules in that era, Colgate did much the same thing.

Brown did essentially the same thing as Dartmouth--visiting Harvard and Yale every year and visiting Princeton and Penn most years (without a return game).

Cornell always visited Franklin Field until the mid to late 1960s. For whatever reason, they were able to get Princeton, Yale, Harvard, and Princeton to visit Ithaca semi-regularly during that time.

Not sure about Columbia. My guess is that the "big boys" didn't mind coming to NYC every other year.

[Go...gate]

Memorial Field didn't expand to 22,000 until the early 1970s when it was agreed that every Ivy should play home-and-home against each other. Prior to that, Dartmouth (and other smaller Ivies) would regularly visit Harvard, Yale, Princeton, and Penn because they could attract a bigger gate.

When the Ivy was officially formed in the 1950s, Memorial Field was thereabouts 10,000 capacity (i.e., the permanent structure on the home side and some cheap-ass bleachers on the away side). Of course, that was still likely more than whatever Colgate's capacity was before it expanded to Kerr Stadium.

Apparently not, though again, I am showing my age. Through the mid-1960s, Colgate's announced capacity at Colgate Athletic Field (through 1965, renamed Andy Kerr Stadium in 1966) was 20,000. Kerr's capacity was gradually reduced to a low of 12,500 in approximately 1984 and 10,221 when Kerr was renovated for the 1991 season.

Colgate had the same arrangements as Brown and Dartmouth to visit Ivy schools, West Point, Syracuse and Penn State for many years. When we hosted a home game, the opponent was usually Cornell, Lafayette, Rutgers or Bucknell.

[bulldog10jw]

Brown did essentially the same thing as Dartmouth--visiting Harvard and Yale every year and visiting Princeton and Penn most years (without a return game).

Cornell always visited Franklin Field until the mid to late 1960s. For whatever reason, they were able to get Princeton, Yale, Harvard, and Princeton to visit Ithaca semi-regularly during that time.

Not sure about Columbia. My guess is that the "big boys" didn't mind coming to NYC every other year.


Brown did not have a home game against Yale until 1958 and I believe the series didn't alternate home games until sometime in the sixties. Dartmouth's first home game against Yale was not until 1971, probably because the crowds at the Bowl for Dartmouth were still in the 50k range through the sixties. In fact, the original plan was for Yale to visit Dartmouth every four years, but with dwindling attendance at the Bowl that plan was scrapped.

It wasn't just the Ivy schools that came to the Bowl exclusively in those days. Colgate was already mentioned, but all of Yale's games against Army in the twenties, thirties, and even the two "final" games in 1954 and 1955 were in the bowl.

[Go Green]

That is correct. Colgate was very close to being the eighth Ivy member.

I suspect that the rest of the Ivy viewed Cornell and Colgate as redundant. We didn't really need two schools from upstate NY.

For whatever reason, Cornell got the nod.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I suspect that the rest of the Ivy viewed Cornell and Colgate as redundant. We didn't really need two schools from upstate NY.

For whatever reason, Cornell got the nod.

Cornell likely leveraged their political influence to some capacity to become one of the Northeast's more powerful institutions. Basically upon the founding of Cornell football, the Big Red established relationships with several of their eventualy Ivy League peers plus numerous other schools who became highly regarded academically. Syracuse, founded in part because Cornell wouldn't move their campus, likely sought a seat at the table too. Upstate NY/CNY appeared, at least from this observers perspective, to have had 3 institutions that at some point in time had Ivy League "potential". Of course, Cornell was the one who got the call.

It must be said, in general, Cornell football has been awful since joining the IL. Zero outright IL Titles, 3 IL co-championships and none since 1990, only two season with 8 wins or more (1971, 1986) plus a seemingly endless number years with 3 wins or less.

[The Boogie Down]

Colgate was already mentioned, but all of Yale's games against Army in the twenties, thirties, and even the two "final" games in 1954 and 1955 were in the bowl.

Not to mention the "final-final" Army @ Yale game in 2014. xthumbsupx

[bulldog10jw]

Not to mention the "final-final" Army @ Yale game in 2014. xthumbsupx

I probably should have explained. When the official Ivy League was formed, it was assumed that Yale would no longer play any "big time" schools once formal Ivy play began in 1956. So two "final" games with Army were scheduled in 1954 and 1955. Since Yale only played nine games and seven would be league games and one would be UConn, at the time no one expected Yale and Army to ever play again. And it took 30 years and a ten game schedule before Yale and Army played again in 1985.

They split those two games in 1954 and 1955 by the way. Army in a blowout 48-7 in '54 and Yale 14-12 in '55 which is considered one of Yale's greatest wins.

That's why I put the quotes around final.

[Pards Rule]

Looking at 2025 schedules if the Pards keep the two D1 payout games (Bowling Green and OSU if it happens) they would presumably drop Stonehill or Sacred Hear to fit UR

[Go Green]

I didn't know this, but apparently Colgate did ask the Ivy if it could join the league in the early 1970s.

The answer was "no."

Ivy Schools Deny Colgate Bid To Gain Admission to League | News | The Harvard Crimson (thecrimson.com) (https://www.thecrimson.com/article/1973/5/9/ivy-schools-deny-colgate-bid-to/)

[bulldog10jw]

I didn't know this, but apparently Colgate did ask the Ivy if it could join the league in the early 1970s.

The answer was "no."



Army and Navy wanted to join in the eighties, but basketball only, I believe.

[DFW HOYA]

Army and Navy wanted to join in the eighties, but basketball only, I believe.

They were already running track at the Heps, correct?

[Go Green]

They were already running track at the Heps, correct?

They were also in a league with the Ivy schools for baseball. Ivy League Baseball didn't become official until the early 1990s when A&N went to the PL.

[bulldog10jw]

They were already running track at the Heps, correct?

And competing in baseball

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Intercollegiate_Baseball_League

The Eastern Intercollegiate Baseball League was a baseball-only conference that existed from 1930 to 1992. It consisted of the eight Ivy League (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivy_League) schools along with Army (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_Black_Knights_baseball) and Navy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navy_Midshipmen_baseball). The league disbanded after the 1992 season, when Army and Navy joined the Patriot League (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_League) and the Ivy League began sponsoring baseball.

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They were also in a league with the Ivy schools for baseball. Ivy League Baseball didn't become official until the early 1990s when A&N went to the PL.

You beat me by a minute

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I didn't know this, but apparently Colgate did ask the Ivy if it could join the league in the early 1970s.

The answer was "no."

Ivy Schools Deny Colgate Bid To Gain Admission to League | News | The Harvard Crimson (thecrimson.com) (https://www.thecrimson.com/article/1973/5/9/ivy-schools-deny-colgate-bid-to/)

I would chalk those proceedings up as one of those, "If you have to ask....". Once the league was formed and its identity forged in 1956 there was/is no way to gain entry. It's a closed group without exception. The biggest question imo is when did the alliance begin and who was part (and to what extent) of the courtship process. From the outside looking in, the window to join ranks MAYBE lasted until the early to mid 1930s. With that said, by the start of the 20th century the 8 clearly shared a similar space.

Was the number 8 chosen with calculation? For example the Big 10 had 9 members when the IL started to form in the 1940s with the "Ivy Agreement". It must be noted, the Big 10 was nearing the point of having 10 members as Michigan State joined in 1950.

[DFW HOYA]

Was the number 8 chosen with calculation? For example the Big 10 had 9 members when the IL started to form in the 1940s with the "Ivy Agreement". It must be noted, the Big 10 was nearing the point of having 10 members as Michigan State joined in 1950.

The Big Ten (formerly known as the "Western Conference" until 1949) was casually called the Big Nine after Chicago dropped out.

[Franks Tanks]

Looking at 2025 schedules if the Pards keep the two D1 payout games (Bowling Green and OSU if it happens) they would presumably drop Stonehill or Sacred Hear to fit UR

OSU?

[DFW HOYA]

OSU?

Discussed elsewhere but... Oregon State.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

The Big Ten (formerly known as the "Western Conference" until 1949) was casually called the Big Nine after Chicago dropped out.

I understand that. My point being that when the Ivy began organizing in a formal sense the Big 10/Western Conference had 9/10 teams (UChicago heading out/MSU coming in), the PAC 12 had 8 and the ACC had 8 (formed in 1953) so I believe the there was rationale with selecting the Ancient 8 as opposed to the Ancient 6 or Ancient 10. The SEC started with 12 teams in 1932.

[DFW HOYA]

I understand that. My point being that when the Ivy began organizing in a formal sense the Big 10/Western Conference had 9/10 teams (UChicago heading out/MSU coming in), the PAC 12 had 8 and the ACC had 8 (formed in 1953) so I believe the there was rationale with selecting the Ancient 8 as opposed to the Ancient 6 or Ancient 10. The SEC started with 12 teams in 1932.

The major conferences in 1954:

Atlantic Coast (8; includes South Carolina)
Big Ten (10)
Big Seven (7; Big 8 less Oklahoma St.)
Pacific Coast (9; Pac 8 + Idaho)
Southeastern (12; includes Tulane and Georgia Tech)
Southwest (7; before Texas Tech and Houston)

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

The major conferences in 1954:

Atlantic Coast (8; includes South Carolina)
Big Ten (10)
Big Seven (7; Big 8 less Oklahoma St.)
Pacific Coast (9; Pac 8 + Idaho)
Southeastern (12; includes Tulane and Georgia Tech)
Southwest (7; before Texas Tech and Houston)

Good call regarding the PAC! Montana deciding to withdraw is often overlooked given the interesting backdrop. I'm not familiar with Idaho's decision to step away.

Either way I should have remembered the Griz departure given the fact when I looked at Montana joining ranks with the MWC/Oregon State/Washington State their previous history with the PAC 8/10 was part of my thought process.

[Go...gate]

They were also in a league with the Ivy schools for baseball. Ivy League Baseball didn't become official until the early 1990s when A&N went to the PL..

The Eastern Intercollegiate Baseball League.