Richmond Seriously Considering Leaving CAA?

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

The article is behind a paywall but it will get the discussion rolling nonetheless....

States the PL or SoCon as the most likely destination?

https://richmond.com/sports/college/schools/university-richmond/university-of-richmond-coastal-athletic-association-william-mary/article_47d36e5e-0e05-11ef-be18-9303e86e2ed2.html

[FUBeAR]

The article is behind a paywall but it will get the discussion rolling nonetheless....

States the PL or SoCon as the most likely destination?

https://richmond.com/sports/college/schools/university-richmond/university-of-richmond-coastal-athletic-association-william-mary/article_47d36e5e-0e05-11ef-be18-9303e86e2ed2.html
As long as they bring their hoops and W&M with them, we good.

[Go...gate]

Needless to say, they would be a very good fit for the Patriot.

[mainejeff]

I don't see how the CAA survives in its current state if Richmond and more importantly W&M beat feet.

[NY Crusader 2010]

As long as they bring their hoops and W&M with them, we good.

They wouldn't.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Needless to say, they would be a very good fit for the Patriot.'

Yawn. People in PL circles love to talk about the "dream" of bringing in W&M, Richmond and Villanova. Yes, Villanova fits the footprint perfectly in football. But 'Nova and Richmond won't do anything to address basketball which is the sport that needs the most help. PL basketball stinks, no disrespect to what Colgate has done the last 5 years.

[NY Crusader 2010]

I don't see how the CAA survives in its current state if Richmond and more importantly W&M beat feet.

CAA will survive but it's basically turning into Big South 2.0 with a wider geographic footprint. The bigger blow in football would be the New England schools leaving to form A-East Football.

I don't think Richmond goes -- being connected to W&M and Villanova in football would trump the allure of the SoCon IMO. But that's just me.

One thing the CAA does have going for it now -- aside from maybe Towson, there really aren't any schools left you have to worry about possibly entertaining FBS aspirations.

[FUBeAR]

They wouldn't.
If FUBeAR told you 18 months ago that Cal, Stanford, and SMU would be ACC Teams, FUBeAR bets you would have confidently proclaimed, “They wouldn’t.”

Anyone pretending they have any certainty regarding any future structure of any aspect of collegiate athletics in today’s environment is simply egoistically delusional or just a troll…or, possibly, both.

[Sitting Bull]

As long as they bring their hoops and W&M with them, we good.

First, Richmond only cares about Richmond. They were the ones that blew up a new league that was set to unveil 30 years ago - football - that included Villanova, Delaware, VMI, JMU, W&M, UR, Furman and The Citadel. They pulled at the last minute to move into the A10 for their basketball program. They have zero loyalty to the CAA. It’s just the best option out there for them to compete at the highest level possible.

It’s tough to argue that either a move into PL or So Con football would be an upgrade though with JMU and Delaware gone, it’s lost some interest for UR and W&M. Other question is whether the So Con would add a football only member. UR has whitewashed most of their southern affiliations and given their student base, the PL has more schools that look like them.

W&M would not follow UR as the article states as the priorities differ. W&M wants an all sports home and the CAA offers that. Per the AD, the school is committed to working on strengthening the CAA. I don’t think W&M would lose the rivalry and last game whether UR stayed or not. As far as the other members, W&M doesn’t appear to have the “neighborhood” issues that Delaware and Richmond imply.

In the end, I’m betting PL as the potential landing spot if Richmond opted out. They wouldn’t take any of their other sports into either PL or So Con so not sure if football only would gather much interest from either conference.

[FUBeAR]

First, Richmond only cares about Richmond. They were the ones that blew up a new league that was set to unveil 30 years ago - football - that included Villanova, Delaware, VMI, JMU, W&M, UR, Furman and The Citadel. They pulled at the last minute to move into the A10 for their basketball program. They have zero loyalty to the CAA. It’s just the best option out there for them to compete at the highest level possible.

It’s tough to argue that either a move into PL or So Con football would be an upgrade though with JMU and Delaware gone, it’s lost some interest for UR and W&M. Other question is whether the So Con would add a football only member. UR has whitewashed most of their southern affiliations and given their student base, the PL has more schools that look like them.

W&M would not follow UR as the article states as the priorities differ. W&M wants an all sports home and the CAA offers that. Per the AD, the school is committed to working on strengthening the CAA. I don’t think W&M would lose the rivalry and last game whether UR stayed or not. As far as the other members, W&M doesn’t appear to have the “neighborhood” issues that Delaware and Richmond imply.

In the end, I’m betting PL as the potential landing spot if Richmond opted out. They wouldn’t take any of their other sports into either PL or So Con so not sure if football only would gather much interest from either conference.
Good info. Thanks!

Despite all that, you are ignoring the “FUBeAR Factor.” FUBeAR has it on good authority that both UR & W&M desire to move all sports to the SoCon just for the opportunity to receive regular and consistent barbed online abuse from FUBeAR. It’s kinda like going to one of those bars / restaurants where all of the wait staff is, by design, acerbically rude to all customers.

[caribbeanhen]

CAA will survive

mighty Not so bearish Bryant is in

Delaware State is like the Avon lady outside the door ringing the bell

UMES holding tryouts ….. Just kidding

Nova might drop football for all we know as the basketball school doesn’t want to be associated with the conference going forward

[NY Crusader 2010]

If FUBeAR told you 18 months ago that Cal, Stanford, and SMU would be ACC Teams, FUBeAR bets you would have confidently proclaimed, “They wouldn’t.”

Anyone pretending they have any certainty regarding any future structure of any aspect of collegiate athletics in today’s environment is simply egoistically delusional or just a troll…or, possibly, both.

Wrong.

[WestCoastAggie]

This was an interesting read. I suspect Richmond put this out here as a way to flex some muscle amongst the other member presidents. CAA Football does not want to lose Richmond. Losing Richmond would likely mean Villanova is going to follow.

And something to consider is the future relegation of the current FCS structure to "3rd-Tier".

Personally, If we can't be in a conference with Richmond and Villanova, I'd much rather see my school back in the MEAC (With Morehouse, Clark Atlanta, Hampton, and Tuskegee) or the SoCon.

[Milktruck74]

This was an interesting read. I suspect Richmond put this out here as a way to flex some muscle amongst the other member presidents. CAA Football does not want to lose Richmond. Losing Richmond would likely mean Villanova is going to follow.

And something to consider is the future relegation of the current FCS structure to "3rd-Tier".

Personally, If we can't be in a conference with Richmond and Villanova, I'd much rather see my school back in the MEAC (With Morehouse, Clark Atlanta, Hampton, and Tuskegee) or the SoCon.

I know that there is some type of loose affiliation with A&T, UNCG, Greensboro College, and maybe Bennett, where students can take classes at the other schools (my sister took two of her social work classes at A&T while attending UNCG)... So maybe in the same vein, y'all could loan the football team to UNCG's Athletic Department. HA.

[Wolffan]

Can see the possible mutual attraction of ‘football only’ for Patriot League - Villanova. Lots of natural rivalries and application overlaps there (HC, Fordham, Georgetown).

Not so clear regarding Richmond - PL. ‘Football Only’ would be without natural rivals or application overlaps. Although the idea of being amongst academic (if unfamiliar) peers might be attractive to Richmond.

[DFW HOYA]

Can see the possible mutual attraction of ‘football only’ for Patriot League - Villanova. Lots of natural rivalries and application overlaps there (HC, Fordham, Georgetown).


Villanova has played Holy Cross twice since, what, 1980? It hasn't scheduled Georgetown since 1950.

[Sitting Bull]

The speculation isnÂ’t being received very well by the posters on URs football board, a sample comment below.

“A move to the PL would be the white flag of surrender for this program. Might as well go to the ODAC.”

IÂ’m not sure if Villanova would feel same as they obviously have a much closer geographic fit to the PL. though both UR and Villanova used to fall back on wanting to compete at the highest level available in football, I.e. the CAA. While overall still top tier in the area, itÂ’s not as substantial as it once was so you can see the possibility of shifts.

[Wolffan]

Can see the possible mutual attraction of ‘football only’ for Patriot League - Villanova. Lots of natural rivalries and application overlaps there (HC, Fordham, Georgetown).

Not so clear regarding Richmond - PL. ‘Football Only’ would be without natural football rivals or application overlaps. Although the idea of being amongst academic (if unfamiliar) peers might be attractive to Richmond.


Villanova has played Holy Cross twice since, what, 1980? It hasn't scheduled Georgetown since 1950.Exactly. Catholic schools, academically oriented, general geographic proximity = natural rivals. No suggestion they are current football rivals…how could they be?

[DFW HOYA]

Exactly. Catholic schools, academically oriented, general geographic proximity = natural rivals. No suggestion they are current football rivals…how could they be?

Proximity is relative. It's 300 miles from Philadelphia to Worcester. Still, and this was a question I asked elsewhere, is...why?

If a school could win a national title in the CAA, regularly make the playoffs, and could recruit whomever they wanted without the Ivy League Index, why trade that all in for the increasingly unnecessary rules and restrictions of a one or two bid (on a good day) the Patriot League? Would Villanova trade home games with the likes of New Hampshire for Bucknell?

[Wolffan]

Proximity is relative. It's 300 miles from Philadelphia to Worcester. Still, and this was a question I asked elsewhere, is...why?

If a school could win a national title in the CAA, regularly make the playoffs, and could recruit whomever they wanted without the Ivy League Index, why trade that all in for the increasingly unnecessary rules and restrictions of a one or two bid (on a good day) the Patriot League? Would Villanova trade home games with the likes of New Hampshire for Bucknell?

You might ask if Nova would trade home games Campbell, Hampton, or NC A&T for home games with Bucknell (not to mention HC, GU, Colgate, Fordham, Lafayette or Lehigh). 🤔

Beyond that, I’m sure there would be some adjustments to some of the oddball PL rules to land a school like Villanova.

Your point that PL is still a step (or two) down in football quality is correct. Even with the recent departure of JMU and DEL and the arrival of (much) weaker football programs. FWIW.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

You might ask if Nova would trade home games Campbell, Hampton, or NC A&T for home games with Bucknell (not to mention HC, GU, Colgate, Fordham, Lafayette or Lehigh). 樂

Beyond that, I’m sure there would be some adjustments to some of the oddball PL rules to land a school like Villanova.

Your point that PL is still a step (or two) down in football quality is correct. Even with the recent departure of JMU and DEL and the arrival of (much) weaker football programs. FWIW.

That is the critical component to all this! IF the PL makes one or two concessions in order to facilitate expansion then the entire trajectory naturally changes. Not only would the league be getting a well regarded, like minded institution, like Richmond others will naturally benefit from some looser redshirt rules and/or AI adjustments.

The PL is the greatest enigma in FCS, and arguably D1 football. The potential/ceiling has long been that of national viability; quite often Top 10/5 good. Colgate has 2 Payton Award winners, there have been multiple Award finalists (Lum, Edmonds, Sluka..anyone else?) in recent years, Colgate and Lehigh have finals appearances in their annals and extended periods of elite play, HC has a Heisman finalist and make claim to one of the greatest teams ever at this level. The facilities and such remain very good relative to the rest of the subdivision, even the Dakota and Montana schools. I'm not sure if another league compares? The PL is somewhat like the Big 10 in the 1980s....

[WestCoastAggie]

I know that there is some type of loose affiliation with A&T, UNCG, Greensboro College, and maybe Bennett, where students can take classes at the other schools (my sister took two of her social work classes at A&T while attending UNCG)... So maybe in the same vein, y'all could loan the football team to UNCG's Athletic Department. HA.
https://media.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExMGtic3J6anYwbDRsajd3OXF1ZmF2NGN wNDBhem1kZDFmb241bzJoYyZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfY nlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/cD7PLGE1KWOhG/giphy.gif

[Go...gate]

Proximity is relative. It's 300 miles from Philadelphia to Worcester. Still, and this was a question I asked elsewhere, is...why?

If a school could win a national title in the CAA, regularly make the playoffs, and could recruit whomever they wanted without the Ivy League Index, why trade that all in for the increasingly unnecessary rules and restrictions of a one or two bid (on a good day) the Patriot League? Would Villanova trade home games with the likes of New Hampshire for Bucknell?

Why not? You seem to have a disdain for your own school in PL Football, as well as Bucknell. Notwithstanding, Bucknell is a damn nice road trip in the Autumn and a highly prestigious school.

[DFW HOYA]

Why not? You seem to have a disdain for your own school in PL Football, as well as Bucknell. Notwithstanding, Bucknell is a damn nice road trip in the Autumn and a highly prestigious school.

No disdain, but some frustration that nothing ever changes with these two schools.

[Tribe4SF]

Why not? You seem to have a disdain for your own school in PL Football, as well as Bucknell. Notwithstanding, Bucknell is a damn nice road trip in the Autumn and a highly prestigious school.

I guess if the leaves are changing but Bucknell from Williamsburg is an awful road trip. Almost as bad as Colgate.

[Dane96]

CAA will survive but it's basically turning into Big South 2.0 with a wider geographic footprint. The bigger blow in football would be the New England schools leaving to form A-East Football.

I don't think Richmond goes -- being connected to W&M and Villanova in football would trump the allure of the SoCon IMO. But that's just me.

One thing the CAA does have going for it now -- aside from maybe Towson, there really aren't any schools left you have to worry about possibly entertaining FBS aspirations.

Stony Brook says, "Hold my beer". They are the ONLY flight risk, and would leave in a hot minute if they got a MAC invite. It's a fact.

[Dane96]

First, Richmond only cares about Richmond. They were the ones that blew up a new league that was set to unveil 30 years ago - football - that included Villanova, Delaware, VMI, JMU, W&M, UR, Furman and The Citadel. They pulled at the last minute to move into the A10 for their basketball program. They have zero loyalty to the CAA. It’s just the best option out there for them to compete at the highest level possible.

It’s tough to argue that either a move into PL or So Con football would be an upgrade though with JMU and Delaware gone, it’s lost some interest for UR and W&M. Other question is whether the So Con would add a football only member. UR has whitewashed most of their southern affiliations and given their student base, the PL has more schools that look like them.

W&M would not follow UR as the article states as the priorities differ. W&M wants an all sports home and the CAA offers that. Per the AD, the school is committed to working on strengthening the CAA. I don’t think W&M would lose the rivalry and last game whether UR stayed or not. As far as the other members, W&M doesn’t appear to have the “neighborhood” issues that Delaware and Richmond imply.

In the end, I’m betting PL as the potential landing spot if Richmond opted out. They wouldn’t take any of their other sports into either PL or So Con so not sure if football only would gather much interest from either conference.

All of this, and the CAA won't be going anywhere. This is exactly correct. Now, if Richmond, Villanova, and then W&M all left, the latter for all sports to either the SoCon or PL (and I don't think it happens), then I think the CAA is kaput as we know it and the split happens. It's why I noted on the Albany board I would NOT be for Albany going to the CAA if they got a third invite TODAY. I want to see what W&M does first...because frankly, you guys are a huge domino. A failure of the AE to lure the northern flank and a commitment by W&M to the CAA, would entice me if I am the Albany leadership and that invite came (again).

But not, Richmond does not change the fact that even without them, the CAA is still a really, really good football league (no worse than top 4) without them on board.

[Dane96]

Proximity is relative. It's 300 miles from Philadelphia to Worcester. Still, and this was a question I asked elsewhere, is...why?

If a school could win a national title in the CAA, regularly make the playoffs, and could recruit whomever they wanted without the Ivy League Index, why trade that all in for the increasingly unnecessary rules and restrictions of a one or two bid (on a good day) the Patriot League? Would Villanova trade home games with the likes of New Hampshire for Bucknell?

This, X/billion

[KnightoftheRedFlash]

Until the PL loosens its draconian restrictions on football, why would CAA teams join?

[Go...gate]

Until the PL loosens its draconian restrictions on football, why would CAA teams join?,

We did. We are now 63 scholarships and, since and because of COVID, redshirt issues are far less of a challenge.

AI is still in place, and that is not going away, IMO.

[DFW HOYA]

,

We did. We are now 63 scholarships and, since and because of COVID, redshirt issues are far less of a challenge.

Draconian restrictions = Admission by Index

[Go...gate]

I guess if the leaves are changing but Bucknell from Williamsburg is an awful road trip. Almost as bad as Colgate.

It is a long trip for you guys but I don't know why it is "bad". Besides, Colgate has been coming down your way since 1973.
.

[Go...gate]

Draconian restrictions = Admission by Index

I disagree. We have made it work for many years.

[Wolffan]

I disagree. We have made it work for many years. Ditto at Holy Cross. If it (AI) is now based on student high school GPA that is almost funny (given grade inflation)…to be honest it seems more like a distinction without much difference in regards to the football student athletes at places like Richmond, Villanova, Army, Navy, etc. We see this repeatedly in PL recruiting overlaps with these schools.

(Georgetown’s most significant football recruiting issues are lack of football schollies, lack of admin support, and comparatively subpar facilities.)

[NY Crusader 2010]

Ditto at Holy Cross. If it (AI) is now based on student high school GPA that is almost funny (given grade inflation)…to be honest it seems more like a distinction without much difference in regards to the football student athletes at places like Richmond, Villanova, Army, Navy, etc. We see this repeatedly in PL recruiting overlaps with these schools.

(Georgetown’s most significant football recruiting issues are lack of football schollies, lack of admin support, and comparatively subpar facilities.)

DFW has opined that Georgetown faces tougher AI restrictions than the rest of the PL because the average HS GPA's and SAT's of the student body at Georgetown are higher than those of the other PL schools.

If this is indeed the case that Georgetown has it tougher with the AI, how come the same doesn't apply to the Ivies? Wouldn't Harvard, Yale and Princeton be at a disadvantage relative to Penn and Cornell?

[NY Crusader 2010]

Stony Brook says, "Hold my beer". They are the ONLY flight risk, and would leave in a hot minute if they got a MAC invite. It's a fact.

You probably would know better than me. I just don't see SBU being attractive from the eyes of a G5 conference anytime in the next 20 years. What about Albany?

[Sitting Bull]

It is a long trip for you guys but I don't know why it is "bad". Besides, Colgate has been coming down your way since 1973.
.

I’m thinking he meant bad as in long. Definitely off the beaten path. I remember that first game in 1973, a 49-42 shootout. A number of good games in the series.

[Tribe4SF]

It is a long trip for you guys but I don't know why it is "bad". Besides, Colgate has been coming down your way since 1973.
.

Let's see... fly to Syracuse...have to stay in Syracuse...rent a car...drive an hour to the game...drive an hour back from the game. Last time I was there was 2021 and attendance was announced as 1,165. There weren't that many there. Even with the trip roughly 1/3 of the crowd was Tribe fans. On the plus side we tailgated right outside the visitor's side and no one even checked tickets.

[Wolffan]

Until the PL loosens its draconian restrictions on football, why would CAA teams join? Two years ago Holy Cross finished its season ranked behind just two CAA teams nationally. And one year ago Holy Cross finished their season ranked nationally ahead of all the CAA teams. So there may be an academically-oriented and successful CAA football program (Richmond? Villanova?) who see that as eye-opening. And are less than enamored with some of the CAA football comings and goings the last few years. (One BIG caveat is that Holy Cross made liberal use of [Covid] 5th-years and PL has not yet adjusted its [regular redshirt] 5th year restriction).

[ElCid]

It is a long trip for you guys but I don't know why it is "bad". Besides, Colgate has been coming down your way since 1973.
.

6 hours ain't that bad. For their Bucknell trip. How far is it for them up to Colgate? The Citadel or Mercer to VMI is about 8 and change.

[Wolffan]

Stony Brook says, "Hold my beer". They are the ONLY flight risk, and would leave in a hot minute if they got a MAC invite. It's a fact. Disagree. The student body, faculty, and administration at Stony Brook are completely unconcerned with football to a level matched in the FCS only by Columbia University. And I do not say this based upon the fact that SBU has a total (!) of 2 wins over the last 2 seasons.

The campus powers that be wouldn't see the MAC as a step up in academic reputation. Only reason that bunch would consider a move. And I don't believe the SUNY powers that be are looking to add another FBS campus.

Off the topic but certainly Delaware would have jumped at a MAC invite but timing is everything as events unfolded.

[Go...gate]

Georgetown’s most significant football recruiting issues are lack of football schollies, lack of admin support.

This. The facilities are OK.

[Tribe4SF]

6 hours ain't that bad. For their Bucknell trip. How far is it for them up to Colgate? The Citadel or Mercer to VMI is about 8 and change.

6 hours is the best you can hope for. Traffic issues on a Friday are almost a certainty. Took us over 7 the last time we were there. Same with Lehigh, and Lafayette. Colgate is 8 1/2 hours with the same traffic concerns. It's a flight.

[centraljerseycat]

I think an America East football conference is the best way forward. It's much better than sticking with a watered down CAA or with the AI and no redshirts restrictions of the Patriot League. First losing JMU, then Delaware geez can't lose Richmond and W&M too. It's stinks enough that the CAA hasn't scheduled Nova against either school the past 2 seasons.
My solution take 10 of the old-guard CAA and the more competitive Patriot League schools and form a new FCS conference. My preference..UNH, Maine, URI, Holy Cross. Albany, Nova, Fordham, Lehigh, Richmond and W&M.

[DFW HOYA]

Georgetown’s most significant football recruiting issues are lack of football schollies, lack of admin support.
This. The facilities are OK.

Lack of administrative support is false. Without administrative support, Georgetown football would have gone the way of football at Seton Hall or Xavier.

The short answer to a long question is that no university can justify spending an additional $10 million a year (doubling its athletic scholarship budget) just to play in the Patriot League.

[WestCoastAggie]

I think an America East football conference is the best way forward. It's much better than sticking with a watered down CAA or with the AI and no redshirts restrictions of the Patriot League. First losing JMU, then Delaware geez can't lose Richmond and W&M too. It's stinks enough that the CAA hasn't scheduled Nova against either school the past 2 seasons.
My solution take 10 of the old-guard CAA and the more competitive Patriot League schools and form a new FCS conference. My preference..UNH, Maine, URI, Holy Cross. Albany, Nova, Fordham, Lehigh, Richmond and W&M.

I think fans and most importantly admins have to have some patience with the new members showing an ability to compete in Football. Albany is there. Stony Brook was there. Elon is well on the way. Campbell has potential and Bryant would be a dominant team in the NEC or Big South.

Yes, Hampton is in a major period of transition and Ayantee went 1-10 in 2023 and don't have great prospects in 2024. But these things go in cycles and these schools can flip the script rather quickly, especially if they keep adding in financial resources to Football.

[Go...gate]

Lack of administrative support is false. Without administrative support, Georgetown football would have gone the way of football at Seton Hall or Xavier.

The short answer to a long question is that no university can justify spending an additional $10 million a year (doubling its athletic scholarship budget) just to play in the Patriot League.

At least six other schools do.

[DFW HOYA]

At least six other schools do.

Those six don't have a hard enrollment cap enforced by city authorities. As such, adding a scholarship is not a marginal change when the alternative is the loss of a student paying tuition.

[Wolffan]

Originally Posted by Go...gate https://www.anygivensaturday.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (https://www.anygivensaturday.com/showthread.php?p=3187948#post3187948)
Georgetown’s most significant football recruiting issues are lack of football schollies, lack of admin support.

This. The facilities are OK.


Lack of administrative support is false. Without administrative support, Georgetown football would have gone the way of football at Seton Hall or Xavier.

The short answer to a long question is that no university can justify spending an additional $10 million a year (doubling its athletic scholarship budget) just to play in the Patriot League.

LOL. Perhaps 'lack of administrative support' as in not enough support to properly fund the sport and get it out of the Patriot League basement but enough support to keep it alive. It is understood they do have a team.

[DFW HOYA]

LOL. Perhaps 'lack of administrative support' as in not enough support to properly fund the sport and get it out of the Patriot League basement but enough support to keep it alive. It is understood they do have a team.

I think some people would be surprised to learn that only eight of 30 sports at Georgetown get that kind of funding. FWIW, football is the second largest budget overall.

[ncspiderfan]

6 hours is the best you can hope for. Traffic issues on a Friday are almost a certainty. Took us over 7 the last time we were there. Same with Lehigh, and Lafayette. Colgate is 8 1/2 hours with the same traffic concerns. It's a flight.

JMO but PL or SoCon would totally be horrible for Spiders and Tribe travel time, more so the Tribe being future east on I-64.

[Go...gate]

Those six don't have a hard enrollment cap enforced by city authorities. As such, adding a scholarship is not a marginal change when the alternative is the loss of a student paying tuition.

That's a new one.....

[DFW HOYA]

That's a new one.....

Not new. This has been going on since at least 1990.

Example:

"A District zoning panel has denied Georgetown University's request to expand its enrollment, citing the persistent misbehavior of undergraduates living in neighborhoods near the campus and casting doubt on the college's promises to control them...University officials said yesterday that without the added students, they might not have enough revenue to finance several new academic programs. Georgetown had sought to lift its current enrollment cap of 5,627 undergraduates by 389 over the next 10 years." --Washington Post, April 6, 2001

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/2001/04/07/enrollment-limited-at-georgetown-u/e38baf0e-49b6-4fde-ba01-ce06014f6a84/

[Go...gate]

Not new. This has been going on since at least 1990.

Example:

"A District zoning panel has denied Georgetown University's request to expand its enrollment, citing the persistent misbehavior of undergraduates living in neighborhoods near the campus and casting doubt on the college's promises to control them...University officials said yesterday that without the added students, they might not have enough revenue to finance several new academic programs. Georgetown had sought to lift its current enrollment cap of 5,627 undergraduates by 389 over the next 10 years." --Washington Post, April 6, 2001

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/2001/04/07/enrollment-limited-at-georgetown-u/e38baf0e-49b6-4fde-ba01-ce06014f6a84/

Ridiculous. Sounds like a basis for land use litigation as an abridgement of property rights under the Federal Constitution.

[jajfitz]

Not new. This has been going on since at least 1990.

Example:

"A District zoning panel has denied Georgetown University's request to expand its enrollment, citing the persistent misbehavior of undergraduates living in neighborhoods near the campus and casting doubt on the college's promises to control them...University officials said yesterday that without the added students, they might not have enough revenue to finance several new academic programs. Georgetown had sought to lift its current enrollment cap of 5,627 undergraduates by 389 over the next 10 years." --Washington Post, April 6, 2001

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/2001/04/07/enrollment-limited-at-georgetown-u/e38baf0e-49b6-4fde-ba01-ce06014f6a84/

How on earth can a government tell a college, a private on at that, how many students it can have?? What's next? Telling a supermarket it can only have so many employees?

[KnightoftheRedFlash]

How on earth can a government tell a college, a private on at that, how many students it can have?? What's next? Telling a supermarket it can only have so many employees?

Have you seen modern America?

[Go Green]

Not new. This has been going on since at least 1990.

Example:

"A District zoning panel has denied Georgetown University's request to expand its enrollment, citing the persistent misbehavior of undergraduates living in neighborhoods near the campus and casting doubt on the college's promises to control them...University officials said yesterday that without the added students, they might not have enough revenue to finance several new academic programs. Georgetown had sought to lift its current enrollment cap of 5,627 undergraduates by 389 over the next 10 years." --Washington Post, April 6, 2001

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/2001/04/07/enrollment-limited-at-georgetown-u/e38baf0e-49b6-4fde-ba01-ce06014f6a84/

The zoning panel wasn't wrong. Roughly ten years later, a guy who lived near campus created this blog:

http://www.drunkengeorgetownstudents.com/

[SFspidur]

Spiders headed to the Patriot League.

https://twitter.com/RTDjohnoconnor/status/1790415976908963904

[katss07]

Does William & Mary go with them? Or is the SoCon going to pick up the phone.

[Nor Eastern]

Does William & Mary go with them? Or is the SoCon going to pick up the phone.


Southern Conference has to at least make the phone call to W&M.

[WestCoastAggie]

Welp...

If you're A&T and Hampton, you have to clearly see what is being put down; schools like Richmond don't want to be affiliated with you in athletic conferences. Yes, they will mention the other new CAAF editions like Bryant, Campbell, and Monmouth, but it was clear that once A&T was added, the rumblings started.

[Go Green]

Welp...

If you're A&T and Hampton, you have to clearly see what is being put down; schools like Richmond don't want to be affiliated with you in athletic conferences. Yes, they will mention the other new CAAF editions like Bryant, Campbell, and Monmouth, but it was clear that once A&T was added, the rumblings started.

That's pretty much what happened with the Big East's basketball schools after Tulane and East Carolina were invited to join.

[katss07]

Southern Conference has to at least make the phone call to W&M.
Agreed. Now would be a great time for them to make up with Elon as well, if at all possible.

It’s an interesting dilemma and William & Mary will be at the fulcrum of it.

Join your rival with the academic elites in a historically important conference who’s seen their national relevance wane over the past 20 years?

Or go back to your roots in the south with a set of schools who aren’t academic slouches either and place yourself higher in the FCS and NCAA BB pecking order.

[rhowdyram]

In 1993 the Yankee Conference consisted of Boston University, Massachusetts, Connecticut, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, Maine, William & Mary, Delaware, James Madison, Richmond, Northeastern, and Villanova. Of these 12 programs:

5 are still in the conference with no announced plans to leave
4 are in or have announced plans to move to FBS
2 have disbanded their teams
1 has announced plans to change conferences,
and at least two of the five still here seem like solid potential change candidates in the next year or so. I have to think William & Mary and Villanova are seriously considering their options with Richmond leaving.

Last program left, turn out the lights!

[WestCoastAggie]

That's pretty much what happened with the Big East's basketball schools after Tulane and East Carolina were invited to join.

It all kinda sucks, ya know?

[Pards Rule]

Let's see... fly to Syracuse...have to stay in Syracuse...rent a car...drive an hour to the game...drive an hour back from the game. Last time I was there was 2021 and attendance was announced as 1,165. There weren't that many there. Even with the trip roughly 1/3 of the crowd was Tribe fans. On the plus side we tailgated right outside the visitor's side and no one even checked tickets.

Come back to Easton TribeSF! We miss you! We have a revamped team

[ElCid]

Not new. This has been going on since at least 1990.

Example:

"A District zoning panel has denied Georgetown University's request to expand its enrollment, citing the persistent misbehavior of undergraduates living in neighborhoods near the campus and casting doubt on the college's promises to control them...University officials said yesterday that without the added students, they might not have enough revenue to finance several new academic programs. Georgetown had sought to lift its current enrollment cap of 5,627 undergraduates by 389 over the next 10 years." --Washington Post, April 6, 2001

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/2001/04/07/enrollment-limited-at-georgetown-u/e38baf0e-49b6-4fde-ba01-ce06014f6a84/

Hilarious. Obviously someone on the zoning panel isn't getting their payoff or they are holding out for some business opportunity in connection with any expansion. Most places would welcome growth. Hmm.

[ElCid]

JMO but PL or SoCon would totally be horrible for Spiders and Tribe travel time, more so the Tribe being future east on I-64.

As compared to current situation or the PL? Yeah, no. The only bad outlier for Richmond and W&M would be Samford at about 11 hour drive. Everything on average would be comparable to old, pre-bloat CAA. As it is now HC will be 9-10 hours, through city after city. Lehigh/Lafayette will be 5-6. Colgate 8-9 hrs. ETSU and Wofford are under 6 hrs.
Furman, The Citadel, and WCU would have all been under 7 hours. Mercer and UTC a little more. VMI obviously closer. And again all not having near the congestion of heading north.

The post bloat CAA might have been better with N/S divisions, but not in Richmond or W&Ms interest...as evidenced by the latest news. If I was to guess, W&M will follow suit to PL.

[crusader11]

If I was to guess, W&M will follow suit to PL.

I don't see that happening for the simple fact that W&M probably doesn't want to move all of their sports from the CAA to PL. Richmond (and Villanova) can get away with leaving being associate members. The CAA wouldn't allow W&M to leave for football and then remain for all other sports.

[ElCid]

I don't see that happening for the simple fact that W&M probably doesn't want to move all of their sports from the CAA to PL. Richmond (and Villanova) can get away with leaving being associate members. The CAA wouldn't allow W&M to leave for football and then remain for all other sports.

Well that may be true, but why not move everything. Is their any reason to stay for the other sports? There may be, but maybe not.

[FUBeAR]

Welp...

If you're A&T and Hampton, you have to clearly see what is being put down; schools like Richmond don't want to be affiliated with you in athletic conferences. Yes, they will mention the other new CAAF editions like Bryant, Campbell, and Monmouth, but it was clear that once A&T was added, the rumblings started.
We’ll (FUBeAR is the online self-imagined Commissioner of the SoCon) happily take y’all, William & Mary, and Campbell as a package deal.

Let the E*Loan Formerly Fightin’ Former Christians stay with the NE’ern schools - y’know, where they imagine their campus is located. Would still ‘do the deal’ without Campbell, but prefer all 3. Woulda preferred Richmond over Campbell, but they kinda snooty ‘bout they Hoops squad…cuz they’ve won exactly one NCAA Tournament game in the past 7 years … woo hoo… so has Furman, BTW.

Anyway…c’mon down … and bring the band!

[GannonFan]

Well that may be true, but why not move everything. Is their any reason to stay for the other sports? There may be, but maybe not.

Agreed. What's the allure of the CAA for the other sports? The Patriot sponsors all the sports W&M has so why would moving those other sports be a bad thing? Sure, travel would be a consideration, but that's the case with any decision they make. Not hard to see W&M and nova following Richmond to the PL.

[Go Green]

Well that may be true, but why not move everything. Is their any reason to stay for the other sports? There may be, but maybe not.

W&M just hired a new MBB coach from Cornell. Word has it that they paid him good money to move.

Would seem weird for them to jump to the PL after that...

[ncspiderfan]

As compared to current situation or the PL? Yeah, no. The only bad outlier for Richmond and W&M would be Samford at about 11 hour drive. Everything on average would be comparable to old, pre-bloat CAA. As it is now HC will be 9-10 hours, through city after city. Lehigh/Lafayette will be 5-6. Colgate 8-9 hrs. ETSU and Wofford are under 6 hrs.
Furman, The Citadel, and WCU would have all been under 7 hours. Mercer and UTC a little more. VMI obviously closer. And again all not having near the congestion of heading north.

The post bloat CAA might have been better with N/S divisions, but not in Richmond or W&Ms interest...as evidenced by the latest news. If I was to guess, W&M will follow suit to PL.

Does not matter now and I have not checked W&M schedule for 2024, but Spiders have a plane ride to Bryant next year and remaining games are home or a bus ride.
I think I read somewhere but could be wrong that CAA was working to reduce greatly the plane rides with regular season schedules. I think (again not positive) that Maine really got hosed with about three trips south last year so I could be wrong about the care to be made in scheduling. I know someone posted on here during the season about a CAA team that had to go south several times but had thought Bryant addition would help with that.
Used to be Spiders rule of thumb for a bus ride was 6-7 hours, they rode to Stoney several years and got whipped each trip until they flew last year and won by a point, so hoped they learned a lesson, again does not matter now.

Not a fan of the change due to the extra travel either way, but if one had to be made, I would have preferred SoCon.

Do not know how change will affect the scheduled out of conference games, but Spiders have several SoCon teams scheduled over the next few years, so will at least give them a quality game some years come selection Sunday if they and those opponents have good seasons (Wofford, VMI, Furman). As the PL stands starting in 2025 it still looks at most like a two-bid conference. Nova might make a move, time will tell, I guess. Spiders and W&M to SoCon I think would have made that conference a lock three bid league and many years four bids.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Agreed. What's the allure of the CAA for the other sports? The Patriot sponsors all the sports W&M has so why would moving those other sports be a bad thing? Sure, travel would be a consideration, but that's the case with any decision they make. Not hard to see W&M and nova following Richmond to the PL.

The Patriot League is actually much stronger than people probably realize in minor sports. That being said, it would currently be a downgrade for W&M in their three most important sports => football, basketball and baseball. W&M doesn't have Men's Lacrosse which the PL excels in. They would be a strong fit in sports like cross country, track and swimming, where PL is strong at the top with Army, Navy and BU.

Unlike Richmond, William & Mary would have to consider how a move to the PL would affect all sports. Remember for UR it's just football. Ditto for Villanova.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Well that may be true, but why not move everything. Is their any reason to stay for the other sports? There may be, but maybe not.

Couple factors worth noting:

1) W&M is now the clear "flagship all-sports member in the CAA, both academically and athletically overall. They are at the head of the table. Before UD left, I thought that Williamsburg-Newark was more or less the axis of the conference.
2) Williamsburg is geographically in the middle of the new-age CAA with a nice diet of opponents in the South as well as the mid-Atlantic and into New England. I think they like this position as opposed to being in a conference where they're either traveling to Alabama and Georgia or remote locations like Lewisburg and Hamilton. Williamsburg would be a geographic outpost in either PL or SoCon.

[aceinthehole]

Couple factors worth noting:

1) W&M is now the clear "flagship all-sports member in the CAA, both academically and athletically overall. They are at the head of the table. Before UD left, I thought that Williamsburg-Newark was more or less the axis of the conference.
2) Williamsburg is geographically in the middle of the new-age CAA with a nice diet of opponents in the South as well as the mid-Atlantic and into New England. I think they like this position as opposed to being in a conference where they're either traveling to Alabama and Georgia or remote locations like Lewisburg and Hamilton. Williamsburg would be a geographic outpost in either PL or SoCon.

I think this is key. Don't see many strategic advantages for W&M to leave the CAA.

[CHIP72]

Hilarious. Obviously someone on the zoning panel isn't getting their payoff or they are holding out for some business opportunity in connection with any expansion. Most places would welcome growth. Hmm.

You don't know just how hoidy toidy the Georgetown neighborhood within DC can be.

This is a neighborhood that has had many people bitch about one of its residents installing large scale Transformers statues (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transformers_(sculptures)) on his property.

[Go...gate]

W&M just hired a new MBB coach from Cornell. Word has it that they paid him good money to move.

Would seem weird for them to jump to the PL after that...

Being in the PL would give William and Mary a much better chance to make the NCAA Basketball Tournament.

[Go...gate]

Well that may be true, but why not move everything. Is their any reason to stay for the other sports? There may be, but maybe not.

Wholeheartedly agree.

[The Boogie Down]

Welp...

If you're A&T and Hampton, you have to clearly see what is being put down; schools like Richmond don't want to be affiliated with you in athletic conferences. Yes, they will mention the other new CAAF editions like Bryant, Campbell, and Monmouth, but it was clear that once A&T was added, the rumblings started.

Uht-ohhh... He's on to you, Richmond. It is clear.

[The Boogie Down]

In 1993 the Yankee Conference consisted of Boston University, Massachusetts, Connecticut, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, Maine, William & Mary, Delaware, James Madison, Richmond, Northeastern, and Villanova. Of these 12 programs:

5 are still in the conference with no announced plans to leave
4 are in or have announced plans to move to FBS
2 have disbanded their teams
1 has announced plans to change conferences,
and at least two of the five still here seem like solid potential change candidates in the next year or so. I have to think William & Mary and Villanova are seriously considering their options with Richmond leaving.

Last program left, turn out the lights!

30/31 years later and obviously the league has never been stronger. From Yankee to "A-10" to CAA to Big Southish.

[ngineer]

DFW has opined that Georgetown faces tougher AI restrictions than the rest of the PL because the average HS GPA's and SAT's of the student body at Georgetown are higher than those of the other PL schools.

If this is indeed the case that Georgetown has it tougher with the AI, how come the same doesn't apply to the Ivies? Wouldn't Harvard, Yale and Princeton be at a disadvantage relative to Penn and Cornell?

The IL is funny. Their “AI” seems to be a moving target. I know that our admissions wouldn’t approve of several football applicants over the years that were recruited and played for Penn.

[ngineer]

The Patriot League is actually much stronger than people probably realize in minor sports. That being said, it would currently be a downgrade for W&M in their three most important sports => football, basketball and baseball. W&M doesn't have Men's Lacrosse which the PL excels in. They would be a strong fit in sports like cross country, track and swimming, where PL is strong at the top with Army, Navy and BU.

Unlike Richmond, William & Mary would have to consider how a move to the PL would affect all sports. Remember for UR it's just football. Ditto for Villanova.

Remember that W&M were ORIGINALLY part of PL , née Colonial Conference, but then backed out when the alums went nuts over the no athletic scholarships rule that applied back then. With that hurdle now gone, it may well be ripe for consideration.

[bonarae]

The IL is funny. Their “AI” seems to be a moving target. I know that our admissions wouldn’t approve of several football applicants over the years that were recruited and played for Penn.

xoutofrepx

And also backward-thinking. xsighx That's why I am trying to latch on to new FCS teams every now and then... xrulesx

[Go...gate]

Remember that W&M were ORIGINALLY part of PL , née Colonial Conference, but then backed out when the alums went nuts over the no athletic scholarships rule that applied back then. With that hurdle now gone, it may well be ripe for consideration.


I remember those days. Very frustrating.

[Sitting Bull]

Remember that W&M were ORIGINALLY part of PL , née Colonial Conference, but then backed out when the alums went nuts over the no athletic scholarships rule that applied back then. With that hurdle now gone, it may well be ripe for consideration.

It was also the restriction on playoff participation and requiring a sizable chunk of your OOC against Ivy League schools. It relinquished a lot of control out of the schools hands. The Ivy League was pulling the strings.

It turned out to be the right decision as W&Ms football program became stronger with a more sensible set-up with the A10 and later, CAA - unlike the quality drop off at Holy Cross, Colgate and Lehigh as examples.

[solohawks]

It was also the restriction on playoff participation and requiring a sizable chunk of your OOC against Ivy League schools. It relinquished a lot of control out of the schools hands. The Ivy League was pulling the strings.

It turned out to be the right decision as W&Ms football program became stronger with a more sensible set-up with the A10 and later, CAA - unlike the quality drop off at Holy Cross, Colgate and Lehigh as examples.

Was this when American left and joined the Patriot? Was W&M originally going to be part of that too?

[Sitting Bull]

Was this when American left and joined the Patriot? Was W&M originally going to be part of that too?

No. American and Navy both left the CAA in the mid 90s? I don’t remember any serious thoughts of W&M involved with the PL after the original formation of the Colonial League in 1982. It was after that W&M, UR, ECU, George Mason, JMU and Navy formed the CAA and variations went from there.

[NY Crusader 2010]

No. American and Navy both left the CAA in the mid 90s? I don’t remember any serious thoughts of W&M involved with the PL after the original formation of the Colonial League in 1982. It was after that W&M, UR, ECU, George Mason, JMU and Navy formed the CAA and variations went from there.

Navy was a "founding member" of the Patriot League when it became a full DI conference in 1991. From 1986-1990 it was a football league only. Original league was 8 teams -- Army, Navy, Fordham, Colgate, Bucknell, Holy Cross, Lehigh, Lafayette. Fordham left for the A-10 in '95 I believe. American left the CAA and joined the Patriot in 2001 or 2002 to get back to 8 members. Loyola and Boston U were added in 2012.

[Go...gate]

Navy was a "founding member" of the Patriot League when it became a full DI conference in 1991. From 1986-1990 it was a football league only. Original league was 8 teams -- Army, Navy, Fordham, Colgate, Bucknell, Holy Cross, Lehigh, Lafayette. Fordham left for the A-10 in '95 I believe. American left the CAA and joined the Patriot in 2001 or 2002 to get back to 8 members. Loyola and Boston U were added in 2012.

Yes. American joined with in 2001 a lot of encouragement from Bucknell's then-President, "Bro" Adams.

[The Boogie Down]

Navy was a "founding member" of the Patriot League when it became a full DI conference in 1991. From 1986-1990 it was a football league only. Original league was 8 teams -- Army, Navy, Fordham, Colgate, Bucknell, Holy Cross, Lehigh, Lafayette. Fordham left for the A-10 in '95 I believe. American left the CAA and joined the Patriot in 2001 or 2002 to get back to 8 members. Loyola and Boston U were added in 2012.

Slightly before my time but I think the PL became an all-sport conference for the 1990-91 school year. I also think Navy (part of the planning) had to wait an extra year before joining b/c of previous CAA commitments. Army, Fordham and Cross otoh all made quicker jumps out of the MAAC. And yes, Fordham did indeed leave after the 1994-95 school year for all sports except for the one that counts most. :D

[Go Green]

Yes. American joined with in 2001 a lot of encouragement from Bucknell's then-President, "Bro" Adams.

Not sure how much encouragement was needed, given that American was getting their butts handed to them every year in the CAA. They did not have the resources to be competitive in the CAA, and the PL was a much better fit for them.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Not sure how much encouragement was needed, given that American was getting their butts handed to them every year in the CAA. They did not have the resources to be competitive in the CAA, and the PL was a much better fit for them.

If you're talking about Men's Basketball, American actually wasn't that bad year over year in the old CAA. They just never performed in the conference tournament the years they were good. And even then it took them 6 or 7 years in the PL to finally get to the NCAA tournament. That was the CAA of the 80's and 90's though. The league got much stronger and deeper in the mid-2000's. Probably best mid-major conference in the country for more than a few years, along with the MVC.

[Go Green]

If you're talking about Men's Basketball, American actually wasn't that bad year over year in the old CAA. They just never performed in the conference tournament the years they were good. And even then it took them 6 or 7 years in the PL to finally get to the NCAA tournament. That was the CAA of the 80's and 90's though. The league got much stronger and deeper in the mid-2000's. Probably best mid-major conference in the country for more than a few years, along with the MVC.

Yes, I was referring to MBB. And even if AU MBB did have some good years in the CAA, I have no recollection of there being any resistance, resentment, or disappointment when they announced the move to the PL. As far as I could tell, it was widely accepted as a sound move among the Eagle faithful.

Perhaps AU women's volleyball was unhappy. But they went on a glory run in the PL that will likely never be matched...

[Go...gate]

Yes, I was referring to MBB. And even if AU MBB did have some good years in the CAA, I have no recollection of there being any resistance, resentment, or disappointment when they announced the move to the PL. As far as I could tell, it was widely accepted as a sound move among the Eagle faithful.

Perhaps AU women's volleyball was unhappy. But they went on a glory run in the PL that will likely never be matched...

Good academics never hurts.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Yes, I was referring to MBB. And even if AU MBB did have some good years in the CAA, I have no recollection of there being any resistance, resentment, or disappointment when they announced the move to the PL. As far as I could tell, it was widely accepted as a sound move among the Eagle faithful.

Perhaps AU women's volleyball was unhappy. But they went on a glory run in the PL that will likely never be matched...

And AU field hockey too. They didn't have to worry about Old Dominion anymore! As far as the fan base being upset about the move, there isn't much of one to begin with. American draws a big basketball crowd only for their winter homecoming game and if they happen to host the Patriot League championship.

I wonder what the reactions were at the Naval Academy when they left the CAA -- we're talking about only 5 years post-David Robinson and a Regional Final appearance.

[Steve81]

All of this, and the CAA won't be going anywhere. This is exactly correct. Now, if Richmond, Villanova, and then W&M all left, the latter for all sports to either the SoCon or PL (and I don't think it happens), then I think the CAA is kaput as we know it and the split happens. It's why I noted on the Albany board I would NOT be for Albany going to the CAA if they got a third invite TODAY. I want to see what W&M does first...because frankly, you guys are a huge domino. A failure of the AE to lure the northern flank and a commitment by W&M to the CAA, would entice me if I am the Albany leadership and that invite came (again).

But not, Richmond does not change the fact that even without them, the CAA is still a really, really good football league (no worse than top 4) without them on board.
Thought with your basketball NIL starting up, Albany market for football, you'd consider moving to the MAC. The MAC will probably wait for a while. But curios how you guys feel about that. Don'
t know why people talk about Stony Brook. There administration changed, Long Island is not an easy destination, and they don't have their own media market.

Did ask Rhody fans and they think they are fine for football with Bryant coming in.