Why can't OSU beat SEC teams?

[JohnStOnge]

Before you say "speed," consider this:

If you're drafted by and or play in the NFL, I think you probably had good speed at your position. I heard the other day on TV that Ohio State has more players in the NFL than any program except USC. Yesterday on the radio I heard a guy say the Buckeyes have had 59 players drafted since Tressel started there seven years ago.

I looked at draft picks over the past five years for Ohio State and the two teams it's been beaten by the past two years in the BCS championship game. By my count, LSU had 26 drafted and Florida had 29. Ohio State had 39 drafted. Ohio State had as many players taken in the first round during that period (10) as Florida (3) and LSU (7) combined. Last year, Ohio State had 8 players drafted, two in the first round.

I looked at one top 100 draft propects list and, even though Ohio State is young this year, it was tied with LSU for third in number of top 100 prospects at 5 (behind Michigan at 6 and USC at 7). And the median ranking of Ohio State players among the top 100 at least according to this guy (22), is higher than that of the LSU players (26). The rankings for Ohio State players in the top 100 are 9, 11, 22, 30, 73 and those for LSU are 2, 21, 26, 40, 61. Certainly not indicative of a notable difference in top NFL draft prospects. I'm sure Ohio State will once agian have plenty of players drafted this year and even more next year.

The bottom line is that, if the NFL draft and numbers of players in the NFL are any indications, Ohio State as a program has typically had more talent than anybody in the SEC has had. To me, the suggestion that they don't have speed when they've been such an NFL player production factory is ludicrous. So why can't they beat SEC teams?

Michigan does it. In fact Michigan, the other Big 10 team that produces a lot of NFL players, has dominated its series with SEC teams. The Wolverines are 20 - 5 - 1 overall against the SEC and 5 - 1 in Bowl games against SEC teams since the BCS started after the 1998 season. They won their one BCS bowl matchup with an SEC champ (Alabama in 1999). They sould've beaten Florida worse than they did this year (fumbled the ball away twice near the goal line).

So what is the deal with Ohio State, which has clearly had a better teams in the Big 10 than Michigan has recently?

[Killtoppers90]

The level of competition ion the SEC is far above the Big 10.

[ucdtim17]

They should probably schedule more than one team outside the Ohio B League nonconference. That's my suggestion

[ngineer]

John--I hear you, but on TV LSU looked faster/quicker. That simple.

[furpal87]

Well, Ohio State does play USC next year.

Simply Ohio State is not built to play the SEC teams. Not fast enough, and not flashy enough.

[D1B]

The level of competition ion the SEC is far above the Big 10.

Dead on Killer. The B10 sucks.

I would add offensive scheme to this. Tressel's unimaginative offense works in the big ten, but nowhere else. It's easy to defend as evidenced by frequent man on man coverage by LSU corners, and it's not built for scoring shootouts.

[seantaylor]

Penn State also dominates the SEC. The speed thing is the most false misnomer in sports. OSU looked like the faster team last night. Look at the big plays. OSU outgained LSU at had the much longer runs/passes. LSU won on the line of scrimmage flat out. Neither one of those teams are the best team. But, with the BCS you will never know. OSU does return pretty much everyone, and if Laurintus comes back, they could be preseason #1.

[OhioHen]

"Speed" is not the deciding factor. LSU didn't have superior speed on the long TD run by Beanie Wells.

"Quickness" plays a bigger role. First step a fraction sooner makes a huge difference, especially as players tire.

I don't remember who made the comment (or exact wording) on ESPN Radio yesterday, but the point was something like "On Monday night, Ohio State saw by far the best team they played all year. LSU didn't see the best team they played all year." The overall depth of competition seems to play a role here.

[bodoyle]

Two completely different styles of play in those conferences.

That and osu doesn't know how to respond to getting punched in the face. It happened 2x this year and they lost both games. They are fragile.

[Franks Tanks]

The level of competition ion the SEC is far above the Big 10.

Then why does the Big Ten 10 have a winning record vs. the SEC since 2002 in bowl games? If you are going to make a blanket statement please support them with some facts or rational argument. See the first post on this thread if you need help on how to accomplish that

[bodoyle]

Frank, the lower-level and mid-level B10 and SEC teams are closer in talent and ability then the upper level.

[Franks Tanks]

Frank, the lower-level and mid-level B10 and SEC teams are closer in talent and ability then the upper level.

I know, thats what I have been saying. So its really 1 or 2 Sec teams in a given year that may be better, glad you can see that. Others would assert that a poor SEC team would do great in the Big Ten, which is just wrong

[D1B]

I know, thats what I have been saying. So its really 1 or 2 Sec teams in a given year that may be better, glad you can see that. Others would assert that a poor SEC team would do great in the Big Ten, which is just wrong

BCS championship game was a home game for LSU. In this game particularly, it came down to defensive speed where LSU dominated and quarterback play.

[bodoyle]

I know, thats what I have been saying. So its really 1 or 2 Sec teams in a given year that may be better, glad you can see that. Others would assert that a poor SEC team would do great in the Big Ten, which is just wrong

You're right. They would need to reccuit a different type of player for th B10 compared to the SEC. Same thing goes with all the other power conferences.

[Franks Tanks]

You're right. They would need to reccuit a different type of player for th B10 compared to the SEC. Same thing goes with all the other power conferences.

When you say that other conferences must recruit more SEC type athletes, I am assuming you mean more guys that cant read, that seems to be something the SEC is good at

[wkuhillhound]

When you say that other conferences must recruit more SEC type athletes, I am assuming you mean more guys that cant read, that seems to be something the SEC is good at

The pot calling the kettle black are we with blanketed statements. I live in the south and I can read very well thank you.

Support. your own statement:

Then why does the Big Ten 10 have a winning record vs. the SEC since 2002 in bowl games? If you are going to make a blanket statement please support them with some facts or rational argument. See the first post on this thread if you need help on how to accomplish that

Lost all credibility. xwhistlex

[Slammer50111]

Part of the reason that OSU hasn't been able to win could be the long period of time between games. OSU finished their season befor Thanksgiving and LSU didn't until early Dec. I would think that has something to do with it.

[Marcus Garvey]

And, winner of "Dumbest Thread Title for Jan. 9, 2008" goes to....
JohnStOnge.

With titles like that, you ought to be writing for ESPN. Let see, OSU happens to lose 2 SEC teams in 2 years that also happen to be, in each year, one of the best teams in the country. Before that, they lost to Alabama in the '95 Citrus Bowl (17-24) and before that, beat LSU in '88. Both of those results are irrelevent.

Let's get some more empiracle evidence before deciding OSU can't beat the SEC.

[Franks Tanks]

The pot calling the kettle black are we with blanketed statements. I live in the south and I can read very well thank you.

Support. your own statement:

Then why does the Big Ten 10 have a winning record vs. the SEC since 2002 in bowl games? If you are going to make a blanket statement please support them with some facts or rational argument. See the first post on this thread if you need help on how to accomplish that

Lost all credibility. xwhistlex

Ok, I made a joke about the not reading thing--both the Big Ten and SEC have plenty of guys that cant read.-- The Big Ten has a winning record vs. the SEC in bowl games since 2002 because overall the two conferences arent as far apart as you would assert. Yes OSU got spanked in the last two title games, but thats not an indictment of the entire conference, just that the best SEC team is better then the best Big 10 team--thats all. You made a blanket statment that the SEC is much better than the Big 10 overall, and thats just not the case.

P.S. --Also the bowl record is the support for my statement that the Sec and Big 10 arent that far apart, your still not quite getting it.

My point was Sec vs Big Ten is pretty close, it was supported by bowl record since 2002.

Your point is that SEC is much better than Big 10--still waiting for support to that statement. You proved that the SEC champ was better than the Big 10 champ the last 2 years--that is all.

[AZGrizFan]

Because OSU is vastly overrated. Much like the rest of the Big 10. It's really not all that complicated. xlolx xlolx xlolx

[Franks Tanks]

Because OSU is vastly overrated. Much like the rest of the Big 10. It's really not all that complicated. xlolx xlolx xlolx

Overrated how? Bowl records for the Big 10 vs other conferences are respectable.

[AZGrizFan]

Overrated how? Bowl records for the Big 10 vs other conferences are respectable.

Big 10 was 3-5. SEC was 7-2. Pac 10 was 4-2. Illinois gets BLOWN OUT. OSU gets BLOWN OUT. Purdue barely survives against Directional Michigan??? I guess, if that's your definition of "respectable"....And one of those Big 10 wins was an SEC loss (Michigan/Florida).

[GannonFan]

Big 10 was 3-5. SEC was 7-2. I guess, if that's your definition of "respectable"....And one of those Big 10 wins was an SEC loss (Michigan/Florida).

And last year the Big 10 had a much better record, didn't they? And again, this year, in 5 of those 8 games, the Big 10 was playing a true road game (Purdue vs Central Michigan in Detroit, MI, Penn State versus Tex A&M in San Antonio, TX, Illinois versus Southern Cal in Pasadena, CA, Michigan versus Florida in Orlando, FL, and OSU versus LSU in New Orleans, LA) - how many other conferences can say that?

[Franks Tanks]

Big 10 was 3-5. SEC was 7-2. Pac 10 was 4-2. Illinois gets BLOWN OUT. OSU gets BLOWN OUT. Purdue barely survives against Directional Michigan??? I guess, if that's your definition of "respectable"....And one of those Big 10 wins was an SEC loss (Michigan/Florida).


ohhhh 3-5 wow that is terrible, the Big Ten just sucks. The Big Ten has been weaker than normal the past 2 years and the still do ok. Miss. State barely beat directional Florida, Arkansas got crushed by Missouri, and lowly and pathetic Michigan beat big bad Florida.

Illinosi shouldnt have been in the Rose Bowl, but thats a different story

[JohnStOnge]

Another thing about the Big 10 is that it plays all its Bowl games in "SEC" conditions and largely in "SEC" territory. We'll never know what would happen if all these bowl games were played in places like Michigan or Ohio in January.

[JohnStOnge]

On the overall bowl records:

By my count the SEC now holds a 14-13 edge over the Big 10 in Bowl games since the BCS started in 1998. Seriously, the biggest mystery is the performance of Ohio State against one conference.

If you take Ohio State...the best program in the Big 10...out, the record is 13 - 10 in favor of the Big 10. If you take Ohio State out the record against SEC champs is 1 - 1. If you include the Buckeyes it's 1 - 3.

It's weird.

[ucdtim17]

Let's get some more empiracle evidence before deciding OSU can't beat the SEC.

I believe the "empiracle" evidence you're looking for is Ohio State's 0-9 record vs the SEC in bowl games.

[08Dawg]

Another thing about the Big 10 is that it plays all its Bowl games in "SEC" conditions and largely in "SEC" territory. We'll never know what would happen if all these bowl games were played in places like Michigan or Ohio in January.

Ok, I'll give you the SEC territory. The LSU-OSU game was pretty much in LSU's back yard. But I'm curious as to what you mean by SEC conditions? Weather? That sort of thing? Define conditions, please.

[ucdtim17]

The 6 week layoff doesn't help tOSU, but it's a retarted system for everyone - they just have it slightly worse. This should be the last year it's a special problem for them, as the big 10 is now allowing games Thanksgiving weekend (and beyond?)

[Marcus Garvey]

I believe the "empiracle" evidence you're looking for is Ohio State's 0-9 record vs the SEC in bowl games.

Then qualify the thread as to be specific to bowl games. Which would still have made this the dumbest thread title for today. They've only played 4 SEC teams in the past 20 seasons. That's not empirical. (I know I spelled it wrong, but didn't care the first time around).

[Lionsrking]

Frank, the lower-level and mid-level B10 and SEC teams are closer in talent and ability then the upper level.

I might give you the middle but not the bottom. The SEC is a lot better a the top and bottom. Middle is closer.

[McNeese_beat]

My perspective from someone who was there...

I agree with posters who said Ohio State was not notably slower in person than LSU, except at wide receiver, where they could not shake free from LSU's corners (one long pass on blown coverage early in the game). However, Ohio State is a speed team in the Big 10. I think when they play Michigan, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Penn State, what OSU brings to the table is their athleticism relative to the opponent. They are faster at LB (Lauranaitis runs well), at DB and DE than most Big 10 teams. On offense, they have speed at TB and WR.

However, they are not remarkable by SEC standards. They are not faster than Florida, Tennessee, Arkansas, etc., and probably no faster than .500-type teams like Alabama, South Carolina, etc. All their strengths become muted against an SEC team.

My point is this: The Big 10 may have been better off with a true, smash-mouth Big 10 team just bludgeoning them. They would have been better off with a Wisconsin, IMO, assuming it's a decent Wisconsin team.
I don't think that team would be good enough this year, but on some years, I've seen physical Big 10 teams really make quality SEC teams look bad and I've seen a team (2004 Iowa) that play wide-open, but rely on finesse as opposed to speed make a good LSU team look bad.

I disagree with those who don't think LSU is the best team. The best team in the bowls was LSU. When LSU had a healthy Glenn Dorsey and a healthy Early Doucet, they beat the hell out the Big 10 champion and absolutely embarrassed Virginia Tech. When LSU looked vulnerable was when they were banged up. If their key players stayed healthy, I really think 14-0 could have happened for them. When they were healthy and clicking, IMO, nobody in college football compared this year.

[terrierbob]

When you say that other conferences must recruit more SEC type athletes, I am assuming you mean more guys that cant read, that seems to be something the SEC is good at

xlolx

Hey, I'm a GA and S. Car. fan, but I remember George Rogers (early 80s) raising his reading level to 10th grade after spending time in Columbia SC.
Someone actually bragged about it.

[Franks Tanks]

xlolx

Hey, I'm a GA and S. Car. fan, but I remember George Rogers (early 80s) raising his reading level to 10th grade after spending time in Columbia SC.
Someone actually bragged about it.

HA--but to be fair those days ended in the 70's and 80's I believe--or I should say I hope. It was bad in that era, but most of the players now are at least somewhat capable in the classroom.

[89Hen]

speed

[JohnStOnge]

I'm going to cut and paste a portion of something I put on the McNeese board. Here it is:

"I just went through and counted numbers of players for Ohio State and LSU on NFL rosters at NFL.com with 5 or fewer years of experience. I counted 37 from Ohio State and 26 from LSU. Since I only did it once there's a possibility of error but I don't think enough error to significantly change the picture. Ohio State has produced, in recent years, a lot of NFL caliber talent. Probalby more than anybody in the SEC has. I didn't compare them to everybody in the SEC but I'm pretty confident of that.

Also, I didn't write down positions because of time. But I think if you go and start looking through the rosters it isn't just offensive linemen. It's defensive backs, wide receivers, linebackers, etc., too.

It could be that the LSU team we saw play Ohio State this week ends up putting more players into the NFL than the Ohio State team it was facing did. That remains to be seen. There were only two senior starters on that Ohio State team.

But I really think there's sufficient basis to question the idea that the reason Ohio State has had problems dealing with SEC teams over the years is a talent disadvantage."

And I'd add to that "speed disadvantage." There's no way you have that kind of NFL player production without speed.

[JohnStOnge]

I disagree with those who don't think LSU is the best team. The best team in the bowls was LSU. When LSU had a healthy Glenn Dorsey and a healthy Early Doucet, they beat the hell out the Big 10 champion and absolutely embarrassed Virginia Tech. When LSU looked vulnerable was when they were banged up. If their key players stayed healthy, I really think 14-0 could have happened for them. When they were healthy and clicking, IMO, nobody in college football compared this year.

I agree with that. A playoff system would've been tough on LSU because of the injury problem. But when they had all their bullets I think they were clearly the best team.

I heard a lot of people talk about the injury factor with USC. Well, LSU won the SEC championship game without playing its starting QB at all, with Dorsey playing at maybe 60%, with Jean-Fran however you spell it playing his first game and out of shape, and a bunch of other guys slowed significantly by nagging injuries.

Ohio State had the misfortune of playing a team that was probably better than the one Virginia Tech played because Jean Fran-whatever is probably better than the guy they had starting at D tackle in that one and otherwise everybody else was back to 100%.

[AZGrizFan]

The 6 week layoff doesn't help tOSU, but it's a retarted system for everyone - they just have it slightly worse. This should be the last year it's a special problem for them, as the big 10 is now allowing games Thanksgiving weekend (and beyond?)

It was that 6 week layoff that GOT them into the BCS title game....they backed in as everyone above them lost.

[ucdtim17]

It's clear tOSU is not lacking talent or speed compared to the SEC. Maybe they just played poorly in two games against good teams. Maybe there isn't some greater significance. Good article:

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080110/COL22/801100415/1103

[Baldy]

There is no doubt that LSU was faster, not that dramatically, but still faster. The largest difference I saw between the two teams was how much more athletic LSU was than OSU.

[Franks Tanks]

There is no doubt that LSU was faster, not that dramatically, but still faster. The largest difference I saw between the two teams was how much more athletic LSU was than OSU.

Than why does Ohio State continue to put more athletes into the NFL?

[Baldy]

Than why does Ohio State continue to put more athletes into the NFL?
Good question.
Another good question in the same vein...why has OSU, with all that NFL talent, been outclassed by 2 different SEC teams two years in a row?

[Franks Tanks]

Good question.
Another good question in the same vein...why has OSU, with all that NFL talent, been outclassed by 2 different SEC teams two years in a row?

exactly that is the real dilemma-- OSU has a bunch of guys who are plenty fast when they get to the NFL, they just dont seem to be playing well in the NC game. WHich makes it even more curious as Tressell is a great big game coach.

[ucdtim17]

Good question.
Another good question in the same vein...why has OSU, with all that NFL talent, been outclassed by 2 different SEC teams two years in a row?

Maybe because a talented Florida team played better last year and equally talented LSU played better this year

[D1B]

Maybe because a talented Florida team played better last year and equally talented LSU played better this year

Think about it. If your saying the talent between OSU and SEC Elite are similar or OSU's is better, than one would have to conclude it comes down to scheme/system/coaching.

OSU and Michigan are classic examples of programs that waste talent on conservate offensive game plans.

I still think the level of comp is much greater in the SEC. Take any team from the big ten besides Mich, OSU and sometimes PSU and put them in the SEC, they be doormats or close to it.

[ucdtim17]

Think about it. If your saying the talent between OSU and SEC Elite are similar or OSU's is better, than one would have to conclude it comes down to scheme/system/coaching.

OSU and Michigan are classic examples of programs that waste talent on conservate offensive game plans.

I still think the level of comp is much greater in the SEC. Take any team from the big ten besides Mich, OSU and sometimes PSU and put them in the SEC, they be doormats or close to it.

Teams don't automatically play to the max potential of their talent and coaching - that's why they play the games.

And I don't care much for defending the Big 11, but Wisconsin has obviously acquitted themselves fairly well vs. the SEC recently and would do fine in the league

[D1B]

Teams don't automatically play to the max potential of their talent and coaching - that's why they play the games.

And I don't care much for defending the Big 11, but Wisconsin has obviously acquitted themselves fairly well vs. the SEC recently and would do fine in the league

Wisconsin, Penn State, et al do well for one game. Make them play an SEC schedule and they don't even see a bowl.

[ucdtim17]

Wisconsin, Penn State, et al do well for one game. Make them play an SEC schedule and they don't even see a bowl.

xrolleyesx

Wisconsin was 12-1 last year with a win (WIN) over SEC West champ Arkansas in the Cotton Bowl to finish the season. They lost by 4 to the SEC East champ this year, after finishing 4th in the Big 10.

[McNeese_beat]

I agree with that. A playoff system would've been tough on LSU because of the injury problem. But when they had all their bullets I think they were clearly the best team.

I heard a lot of people talk about the injury factor with USC. Well, LSU won the SEC championship game without playing its starting QB at all, with Dorsey playing at maybe 60%, with Jean-Fran however you spell it playing his first game and out of shape, and a bunch of other guys slowed significantly by nagging injuries.

Ohio State had the misfortune of playing a team that was probably better than the one Virginia Tech played because Jean Fran-whatever is probably better than the guy they had starting at D tackle in that one and otherwise everybody else was back to 100%.

I'll tell you what, in terms of pure talent, I think Ricky Jean Francois is BETTER than Dorsey. And that's saying a lot considering where Dorsey is in the draft board. But he is the same kind of player, only bigger.

[JohnStOnge]

I'll tell you what, in terms of pure talent, I think Ricky Jean Francois is BETTER than Dorsey..

There's a 3 o'clock sports talk show on Baton Rouge Radio I listen to sometimes on the way home. Before the BCS title game the two hosts (Matt and Josh) talked about that. They said that's what LSU coaches they talk to say...that Francois is actually better than Dorsey.

Tennessee played against him but it was his first game back and the general opinion seems to be that he wasn't in playing shape yet.