FCS programs are among the least subsidized in all of Division I

[bonarae]

https://x.com/novy_williams/status/1771168284768915782

https://herosports.com/fcs-football-top-teams-least-subsidized-bzbz/

What gives for us? xchinscratchx

[WestCoastAggie]

Cost Containment

[DFW HOYA]

This is a misleading headline-- it compares five FCS schools that draw playoff revenue and good attendance with low(er) rates of tuition and operating expenses, but you can't extrapolate that "FCS programs are among the least subsidized in all of Division I."

Sam Herder says as much: "About 80% of G5 public schools have a subsidization of 50% or more, while nearly 20% have at least 70%. For FCS public schools, 90% have a subsidization of 50% or more, while 50% have at least 70%." Add in private schools, and the 70% threshold is even higher.

[ElCid]

This is a misleading headline-- it compares five FCS schools that draw playoff revenue and good attendance with low(er) rates of tuition and operating expenses, but you can't extrapolate that "FCS programs are among the least subsidized in all of Division I."

Sam Herder says as much: "About 80% of G5 public schools have a subsidization of 50% or more, while nearly 20% have at least 70%. For FCS public schools, 90% have a subsidization of 50% or more, while 50% have at least 70%." Add in private schools, and the 70% threshold is even higher.

As with all statistics, anyone can slice and dice numbers, use creative math, or come up with creative definitions to show what they want. Headline aside, articles like these aren't usually worth the electrons used to create them. Bottom line is no two schools are alike, so trying to compare 100s of them to one arguably arbitrary measurement is silly.

[nodak651]

Him talking about percentages when the overall budgets between FCS and FBS are so much different is kind of stupid, IMO.

[BisonFan02]

NDSU will always have to run their program as lean and unsubsidized as possible.....will never get local/state help due to the outhouse an hour north of them.

[mainejeff]

Interesting to compare CAA schools.....

Student Fee Subsidies:

Towson - $17,872,941
William & Mary - $15,805,578
UNH - $13,315,230
Stony Brook - $9,718,977
NC A&T - $9,479,012
Albany - $7,422,081
Maine - $0
Rhode Island - $0

[Professor Chaos]

Interesting to compare CAA schools.....

Student Fee Subsidies:

Towson - $17,872,941
William & Mary - $15,805,578
UNH - $13,315,230
Stony Brook - $9,718,977
NC A&T - $9,479,012
Albany - $7,422,081
Maine - $0
Rhode Island - $0

Probably just a matter of accounting - here's the "school funds" going into athletic department revenue for each of those schools:

Towson - $5,153,431
William & Mary - $1,134,287
UNH - $11,273,183
Stony Brook - $21,963,512
NC A&T - $3,291,387
Albany - $13,828,527
Maine - $19,247,506
Rhode Island - $24,593,744

[mainejeff]

Probably just a matter of accounting - here's the "school funds" going into athletic department revenue for each of those schools:

Towson - $5,153,431
William & Mary - $1,134,287
UNH - $11,273,183
Stony Brook - $21,963,512
NC A&T - $3,291,387
Albany - $13,828,527
Maine - $19,247,506
Rhode Island - $24,593,744

Maine does not charge a "student fee" to support its collegiate athletic program.....that's a fact. As a public university it absolutely receives funds from the State of Maine.

The original post with tweet focused on JMU's student subsidies.....hence the focus in my post.

[Professor Chaos]

Maine does not charge a "student fee" to support its collegiate athletic program.....that's a fact. As a public university it absolutely receives funds from the State of Maine.

The original post with tweet focused on JMU's student subsidies.....hence the focus in my post.
What I'm saying is it's pretty much the same thing whether it's earmarked as student fees of school funds. In both cases it's money going to the school's athletic department that would otherwise be going to the school to support other things. I'm pretty confident tuition is higher at Maine and Rhode Island due to that $19M and $24M, respectively, that the school is sending to subsidize the athletic department.

[ElCid]

What I'm saying is it's pretty much the same thing whether it's earmarked as student fees of school funds. In both cases it's money going to the school's athletic department that would otherwise be going to the school to support other things. I'm pretty confident tuition is higher at Maine and Rhode Island due to that $19M and $24M, respectively, that the school is sending to subsidize the athletic department.

Yeah. Charge "X" more for tuition than needed. Or anything like room and board. School gives "X" less, from other sources, to tuition requirements or whatever. School then gives that "X" to athletics. Pretty simple and they can advertise zero student fees. It's all just accounting. Without a comparison of total cost of attendence, a true picture can't be seen clearly.

[mainejeff]

What I'm saying is it's pretty much the same thing whether it's earmarked as student fees of school funds. In both cases it's money going to the school's athletic department that would otherwise be going to the school to support other things. I'm pretty confident tuition is higher at Maine and Rhode Island due to that $19M and $24M, respectively, that the school is sending to subsidize the athletic department.

You are incorrect. Also.....ask the students if there is a difference in their bills.

[caribbeanhen]

You are incorrect. Also.....ask the students if there is a difference in their bills.

Are you saying the students even have a clue where all of their tuition fees go?

please

[mainejeff]

Yeah. Charge "X" more for tuition than needed. Or anything like room and board. School gives "X" less, from other sources, to tuition requirements or whatever. School then gives that "X" to athletics. Pretty simple and they can advertise zero student fees. It's all just accounting. Without a comparison of total cost of attendence, a true picture can't be seen clearly.

So JMU's $5,662 student fee ($2,362 to athletics) is just fuzzy accounting?

[mainejeff]

Are you saying the students even have a clue where all of their tuition fees go?

please

When a bill is broken down.....you see where your money is going. I would think you being a blue blood Delaware guy that you would understand that...no?

Not sure why you dunces don't get that Maine taxpayers are footing the bill with state subsidies going to the athletic department....??? I mean is it so hard to understand that students are being billed $0 directed toward athletics but Maine taxpayers are directly contributing toward the athletic dept budget....??? Not my fault your schools are doing it a different way.

[caribbeanhen]

When a bill is broken down.....you see where your money is going. I would think you being a blue blood Delaware guy that you would understand that...no?

Not sure why you dunces don't get that Maine taxpayers are footing the bill with state subsidies going to the athletic department....??? I mean is it so hard to understand that students are being billed $0 directed toward athletics but Maine taxpayers are directly contributing toward the athletic dept budget....??? Not my fault your schools are doing it a different way.

dunces? Yea Bernie Madoff was mailing receipts and statements to his investors, supposedly very smart people, for decades on trades that never happened and money that didn’t even exist

I’m not saying this kind of stuff was going on at Maine, but I’m a bit more skeptical with what people do with money despite what they tell you …

[mainejeff]

dunces? Yea Bernie Madoff was mailing receipts and statements to his investors, supposedly very smart people, for decades on trades that never happened and money that didn’t even exist

I’m not saying this kind of stuff was going on at Maine, but I’m a bit more skeptical with what people do with money despite what they tell you …

I don't give a fly F about Bernie Madoff or your half baked tangent.


Some schools finance their athletic department with student fees....some don't. Deal with it.

[BisonFan02]

I don't give a fly F about Bernie Madoff or your half baked tangent.


Some schools finance their athletic department with student fees....some don't. Deal with it.

Student fee.....tuition....general fund....call it whatever you want. Things somehow get funded...nothing is for free. Throwing money in one big pot versus itemizing it doesn't pass a smell test unless you bury your head in the sand. If it isn't from the state (have receipts)....and it isn't merch/boosters (again....receipts)....where the hell else does it come from? Trees? xlolx

[ElCid]

When a bill is broken down.....you see where your money is going. I would think you being a blue blood Delaware guy that you would understand that...no?

Not sure why you dunces don't get that Maine taxpayers are footing the bill with state subsidies going to the athletic department....??? I mean is it so hard to understand that students are being billed $0 directed toward athletics but Maine taxpayers are directly contributing toward the athletic dept budget....??? Not my fault your schools are doing it a different way.

What you don't understand is how accounting and money can simply be labeled and drawn from various pots to cover how things are being paid for. Money spent on athletics "could" have gone to lower tuition. So where the money is being spent does impact the overall cost to students. It was simply a "decision" by someone. It is a complicated concept so if you don't understand, that figures.

[POD Knows]

I don't give a fly F about Bernie Madoff or your half baked tangent.


Some schools finance their athletic department with student fees....some don't. Deal with it.Hey, was checking on tuition rates and I see that Maine charges tuition by the credit hour, is that correct? If so, that is a great way to approach it.

[MSUBobcat]

When a bill is broken down.....you see where your money is going. I would think you being a blue blood Delaware guy that you would understand that...no?

Not sure why you dunces don't get that Maine taxpayers are footing the bill with state subsidies going to the athletic department....??? I mean is it so hard to understand that students are being billed $0 directed toward athletics but Maine taxpayers are directly contributing toward the athletic dept budget....??? Not my fault your schools are doing it a different way.

Simple question: Did the State of Maine earmark the $19,247,506 as specifically for the athletic department, and if not spent on athletics the university would not get those funds? If not..... the students are indirectly paying for athletics via higher tuition even if it's not a line item on a bill.

[caribbeanhen]

I don't give a fly F about Bernie Madoff or your half baked tangent.


Some schools finance their athletic department with student fees....some don't. Deal with it.

Oh my

You’re an emotional wreck

You’re right about something though … who gives a ****

[ElCid]

Simple question: Did the State of Maine earmark the $19,247,506 as specifically for the athletic department, and if not spent on athletics the university would not get those funds? If not..... the students are indirectly paying for athletics via higher tuition even if it's not a line item on a bill.

I know right. But whether they did or not, this money was obviously given by the state for use by the school. They would probably get the same overall amount of money in any event. So in the end it doesn't matter if the state declared what it was for or the school does. It just means they used it for athletics and not something else at the school. Something that could have a lowered other costs. It still costs a student X to attend, no matter what. That probably doesn't change whether they have student athletic fees or not. Again, it's just an accounting exercise. I guess people who don't understand this think they are getting a deal by not paying an athletic fee, even if they pay more for tuition, books, room, board, etc. than if the money had been used elsewhere. This shell game concept is used a lot in business and government. It enables budgets to be spun in the light that they need to be, specifically for the benefit of those making the decisions.

[mainejeff]

Oh my

You’re an emotional wreck

You’re right about something though … who gives a ****

Glad we can agree on something.....have fun with your new mates Kennesaw and Jacksonville State!

[mainejeff]

I know right. But whether they did or not, this money was obviously given by the state for use by the school. They would probably get the same overall amount of money in any event. So in the end it doesn't matter if the state declared what it was for or the school does. It just means they used it for athletics and not something else at the school. Something that could have a lowered other costs. It still costs a student X to attend, no matter what. That probably doesn't change whether they have student athletic fees or not. Again, it's just an accounting exercise. I guess people who don't understand this think they are getting a deal by not paying an athletic fee, even if they pay more for tuition, books, room, board, etc. than if the money had been used elsewhere. This shell game concept is used a lot in business and government. It enables budgets to be spun in the light that they need to be, specifically for the benefit of those making the decisions.

Good grief.....what are you guys so bent out of shape over?

UNH - In-State tuition: $19,112 Out-of-State: $38,882

Maine - In-State tuition: $12,606. Out-of-State: $35,346

So you guys are telling me that students are subsidizing athletics at Maine and Maine taxpayers are not?

[ElCid]

Good grief.....what are you guys so bent out of shape over?

UNH - In-State tuition: $19,112 Out-of-State: $38,882

Maine - In-State tuition: $12,606. Out-of-State: $35,346

So you guys are telling me that students are subsidizing athletics at Maine and Maine taxpayers are not?

In a round about way yes, possibly. And you can't compare school to school necessarily, especially from different states. You have to compare two different scenarios at the same school. Costs in Maine are, or could be, very different than in Maine.

So looking just at Maine, if in state tuition is 12606 at Maine, and that same $23m used for athletics, or whatever it was, was instead used to lower tuition instead of athletics it might only be $12000 cost for tuition. And Maine would charge $606 in athletic fees to maintain the same funding levels. But since the state either designated it for athletics, or the school did, either way, the student pays the same regardless. That is just an example with notional figures for understanding the concept. Again, that assumes the $23M was earmarked for the school no matter what. The state and it's taxpayers spent the same, the students paid the same, and Maine gets to say it doesn't have any athletics fees simply because that money was spent on athletics versus possibly lowering other costs. I'm not saying they did it specifically for that reason, but in the end the result is the same. Get it. This is old school accounting 101. It's really not hard to see. It's the different "pot of money" scheme. In some cases business and government do execute this strategy for very specific political or financial reporting purposes.

[Professor Chaos]

FWIW JMU, with their gargantuan athletic fees, has a tuition of $13,576 for in-state students and $30,790 out-of-state students.

https://www.jmu.edu/admissions/tuition-financial-aid-and-scholarships.shtml

In the end it's po-tay-to/po-tah-to in regards to whether a school subsidizes it's athletic department with student fees or school funds.

[clenz]

FWIW JMU, with their gargantuan athletic fees, has a tuition of $13,576 for in-state students and $30,790 out-of-state students.

https://www.jmu.edu/admissions/tuition-financial-aid-and-scholarships.shtml

In the end it's po-tay-to/po-tah-to in regards to whether a school subsidizes it's athletic department with student fees or school funds.
It's all a dumb accounting game and which box gets checked.

UNI has a continual fight between athletics and academia over the 4 million dollars a year UNI gets from the university "general fund". The faculty scream about athletics using university funds to pay for athletics. The reality is that 4 million comes into the athletic department ledgers and goes directly back into the university ledgers as it's used for scholarships.

Every school, state, system, etc. plays the game differently. The state of Iowa requires UNI to "bill" the athletic department for athletic related aid. In turn the athletic department goes "Fine, we will use funds from the general fund for that because those are funds available.". The funds go directly back to the school.

Even better in the case of UNI they don't charge any other department for scholarships that way. Those scholarships just get lumped into the university operating costs. Only athletic scholarships are forced to be separate - but that's a whole different topic about the state of Iowa BOR doing everything they can to make UNI athletics life difficult. The business school isn't charged for scholarships. The school of education isn't charged for scholarships. The school of human services isn't charged the same way. Only athletics. Thus we have an extra 4 million put into our "school/institutional support" that isn't done so with any other program on campus and many other schools across the nation. Why athletics related aid is forced to be billed separately has never been answered. Technically it's school/government/state aid going to the athletic department, but it's a gigantic farce that it's forced to happen that way.

On top of that the "student athletic recreation fee" gets put entirely to the athletic department, yet only a fraction actually goes to athletics. That same fee is split between intramurals, the rec center/activity fee, and athletics and even the part that goes to athletics gives students free tickets to every athletic event. Also that fee hasn't been raised in almost 20 years and is something like $230 per semester.

It's all just stupid accounting games.

[mainejeff]

FWIW JMU, with their gargantuan athletic fees, has a tuition of $13,576 for in-state students and $30,790 out-of-state students.

https://www.jmu.edu/admissions/tuition-financial-aid-and-scholarships.shtml

In the end it's po-tay-to/po-tah-to in regards to whether a school subsidizes it's athletic department with student fees or school funds.

JMU has over double the undergrad population that Maine does.