AFL-CIO Comes to Hanover

[Ivytalk]

Dartmouth hoops team votes 13-2 to unionize under the SEIU banner. I’m sure that GoGreen, the George Meany of the Ivy League, is 100% behind his guys!

Seriously, what do people think of this development? Will it spread to FCS football? Are athletes just workers who need union protection for “laboring in the vineyard” in this era of NIL and the transfer portal?

[DFW HOYA]

Dartmouth hoops team votes 13-2 to unionize under the SEIU banner. I’m sure that GoGreen, the George Meany of the Ivy League, is 100% behind his guys!

Seriously, what do people think of this development? Will it spread to FCS football? Are athletes just workers who need union protection for “laboring in the vineyard” in this era of NIL and the transfer portal?

What if Dartmouth chooses not to field a team? The NH union rules can't force them to do so.

[ElCid]

There are evil forces afoot bent on agendas that will send college sports into full self destruct mode.

[Tribe4SF]

Fear of change is pretty natural. New models for collegiate athletics are a given at this point. As one of the Dartmouth players pointed out.. "Our Managers have always been paid. We players have not." No question that the NCAA, schools, and conferences have gotten away with restraint of trade forever. College sports will be around, but look a bit different.

[Milktruck74]

Fear of change is pretty natural. New models for collegiate athletics are a given at this point. As one of the Dartmouth players pointed out.. "Our Managers have always been paid. We players have not." No question that the NCAA, schools, and conferences have gotten away with restraint of trade forever. College sports will be around, but look a bit different.

Compensation comes in many different forms. Over my professional career, I have been paid in cash, stock, bonus trips, an automobile, etc.... all of which have been taxed. If players are considered employees, their scholarships are now considered compensation and taxed as thus. I know Dartmouth doesn't give traditional athletic scholarships, but now any trip that is above the federal reimbursement rates would need to be taxed. I have a little knowledge of how the NFL paid players a few years ago. They were considered "Entertainers" and as such their compensation was broken down into performances. They received a check for each game. So a 16 game season, they got 1/16 of their pay every week. And that check was taxed based on the location of the performance i.e. when playing the Jets you are hit with NY state Taxes, the Titans or the Cowboys, no state taxes, No taxes that week. Now, you have an athletic department that has to try and figure out all this payroll...so at what point do they say screw it, we are offering club sports? Besides, I hate doing my taxes in a state that doesn't even have a state income tax, I can't imagine how complex it would be to do it in 5 or 6 different states every year!

[caribbeanhen]

Dartmouth hoops team votes 13-2 to unionize under the SEIU banner. I’m sure that GoGreen, the George Meany of the Ivy League, is 100% behind his guys!

Seriously, what do people think of this development? Will it spread to FCS football? Are athletes just workers who need union protection for “laboring in the vineyard” in this era of NIL and the transfer portal?

Karen Carpenter
these are the good ole days

Karen was wrong

interest in college football was already on the wane and I just don’t see how the direction it’s all going now is going to sustain any type of long-term fan growth ….

[ElCid]

Fear of change is pretty natural. New models for collegiate athletics are a given at this point. As one of the Dartmouth players pointed out.. "Our Managers have always been paid. We players have not." No question that the NCAA, schools, and conferences have gotten away with restraint of trade forever. College sports will be around, but look a bit different.

If that is the way you want to view it. For the vast majority of people, college sports isn't about money or a job. It is an extra curricular activity, not a "job." The monies obtained from the programs fund the athletic departments. The ONLY reason this is an issue is because it is about money and how much some people seem to think they can get out of the system. These are the evil forces I mentioned above. That they will eventually destroy the source of that money by alienating the grassroots fans (other students who grow into adult fans) doesn't seem to compute, unfortunately.

It may survive for a while, but the long term prognosis will be bleak. There is a sense of connection that students and fans feel in regard to the "student athletes" at their school. Make them employees and the connection will be about as close as it is with the janitors or grounds keepers. And in this brave new world of change, while janitors and ground keepers are actually necessary, a jobs program for "employee athletes" isn't necessary and ripe for budget cuts at the vast majority of schools. So who will ultimately suffer?

[WestCoastAggie]

Karen Carpenter
these are the good ole days

Karen was wrong

interest in college football was already on the wane and I just don’t see how the direction it’s all going now is going to sustain any type of long-term fan growth ….

There was an increase in TV Ratings for College Football, specifically the CFP and P5.

What does that mean for us? Nothing.

In fact, I won't be surprised if quite a few of us drop scholarships and decrease emphasis on football and athletics in general, turning them into large Club Sport operations. We're honestly about a year and a half from seeing this starting.

[WestCoastAggie]

If that is the way you want to view it. For the vast majority of people, college sports isn't about money or a job. It is an extra curricular activity, not a "job." The monies obtained from the programs fund the athletic departments. The ONLY reason this is an issue is because it is about money and how much some people seem to think they can get out of the system. These are the evil forces I mentioned above. That they will eventually destroy the source of that money by alienating the grassroots fans (other students who grow into adult fans) doesn't seem to compute, unfortunately.

It may survive for a while, but the long term prognosis will be bleak. There is a sense of connection that students and fans feel in regard to the "student athletes" at their school. Make them employees and the connection will be about as close as it is with the janitors or grounds keepers. And in this brave new world of change, while janitors and ground keepers are actually necessary, a jobs program for "employee athletes" isn't necessary and ripe for budget cuts at the vast majority of schools. So who will ultimately suffer?

For some, this could happen. For others, like HBCUs as example, our Homecomings and the experience a games with the Band and atmosphere will force us to find a way to keep it going.

I mean, it would be disastrous for A&T and Greensboro to decimate GHOE because we have to classify Football Players as employees, many of whom take out student loans to pay for college. I can see a scenario where our Homecoming football game is a Club Football game between us and another HBCU that did the same. As long as that weekend isn't touched and our rivalries with NCCU and a couple others aren't touched, we're still going to have a football team.

The same with SC State and a few other HBCUs out here.

[caribbeanhen]

There was an increase in TV Ratings for College Football, specifically the CFP and P5.

What does that mean for us? Nothing.

In fact, I won't be surprised if quite a few of us drop scholarships and decrease emphasis on football and athletics in general, turning them into large Club Sport operations. We're honestly about a year and a half from seeing this starting.

at what level?

edit: gotcha I see your reply to El Cid

[MR. CHICKEN]

....CLUB SPORTS WOOD STILL....REQUIRE TRAVEL COSTS.....HOW MANY FANS WILL BUY TIX....FO' CLUBBERS.....BRAWK?

[caribbeanhen]

....CLUB SPORTS WOOD STILL....REQUIRE TRAVEL COSTS.....HOW MANY FANS WILL BUY TIX....FO' CLUBBERS.....BRAWK?

and who pays the coaches for club sports?

they gonna pass the hat up in the stands..

[POD Knows]

and who pays the coaches for club sports?

they gonna pass the hat up in the stands..Yea, and then when the club team managers are paid, these "clubbers" will want NIL/COA/Unions and a bunch of other ****. I am real close to pulling the pin on my college sports fandom if this continues. How would these stupid unions work in right to work states, I am sure there are plenty of folks that would play the game for the free tuition.

[Bison Fan in NW MN]

There are evil forces afoot bent on agendas that will send college sports into full self destruct mode.


This here 100%

[Milktruck74]

For some, this could happen. For others, like HBCUs as example, our Homecomings and the experience a games with the Band and atmosphere will force us to find a way to keep it going.

I mean, it would be disastrous for A&T and Greensboro to decimate GHOE because we have to classify Football Players as employees, many of whom take out student loans to pay for college. I can see a scenario where our Homecoming football game is a Club Football game between us and another HBCU that did the same. As long as that weekend isn't touched and our rivalries with NCCU and a couple others aren't touched, we're still going to have a football team.

The same with SC State and a few other HBCUs out here.

Grew up in Randolph County 30 years ago...Sister and Parents live in GSO now...I have seen the A&T homecoming and what it does for the local economy. I've often said the game is secondary. It is a party that no one wants to miss, Oh, and we could go to the game too. I really don't see that much different if the teams were club sports, the Pride is in the school, not necessarily the team. Sure the fan wants their squad to win, but do you think the numbers would drop if the game was played between two non scholly club teams? I don't.

[Milktruck74]

and who pays the coaches for club sports?

they gonna pass the hat up in the stands..

BAKE SALE!!!!

Club sports do have travel costs, but the clubs would play much closer club teams. Your current conferences would not be the same. IT would be places you could drive to, play, and drive back, all in a single day. Kids would buy their own gear and probably drive themselves. Basically look at your school's ultimate frisbee team...that is what it would look like. I would see my Chattanooga Mocs schedule look quite different...If this is the route that any non P4 school were to go...Divisions don't matter...Based on schools that actually have teams now... It would probably be, Kennesaw State, Georgia State, Carson Newman, Shorter College, Berry College, Tennessee Tech, Sewanee, Tusculum, ETSU, Brevard, and maybe WCU... Now, it cost about $2000 to outfit a Football player with pads and unis, so that would drastically reduce the kids that could afford such a club. So get ready for Frat Boy Football...

[WestCoastAggie]

Grew up in Randolph County 30 years ago...Sister and Parents live in GSO now...I have seen the A&T homecoming and what it does for the local economy. I've often said the game is secondary. It is a party that no one wants to miss, Oh, and we could go to the game too. I really don't see that much different if the teams were club sports, the Pride is in the school, not necessarily the team. Sure the fan wants their squad to win, but do you think the numbers would drop if the game was played between two non scholly club teams? I don't.

Do I think attendance numbers for our homecoming game would change if we move to a Club Football format? Absolutely not.

In fact, I can forsee a scenario where HBCUs move to an expanded Club Sports model or Division-III model of sorts and not much would change as far as our game atmosphere. Same with the Ivy League.

Where I see the problem are FCS Schools that aren't in the Dakotas or Montana or in a situation where people have a strong affinity for the school (like HBCUs and Ivies). Do people have a strong affinity for the directional state college or private colleges that don't have large endowments.

Of course, I do believe we would need some sort of governing body for these club sports.

[Milktruck74]

Do I think attendance numbers for our homecoming game would change if we move to a Club Football format? Absolutely not.

In fact, I can forsee a scenario where HBCUs move to an expanded Club Sports model or Division-III model of sorts and not much would change as far as our game atmosphere. Same with the Ivy League.

Where I see the problem are FCS Schools that aren't in the Dakotas or Montana or in a situation where people have a strong affinity for the school (like HBCUs and Ivies). Do people have a strong affinity for the directional state college or private colleges that don't have large endowments.

Of course, I do believe we would need some sort of governing body for these club sports.

Interestingly, I think this might actually help the directional schools. I look at many G5 programs and FCS to a large degree, and there is a disconnect between the athletes and the student body. An Us and them...and now with the portal, and mercenary football...The disconnect is getting wider. I see my daughters D3 School and the students in the stands are there because of pride and friendship. The kid on the court or the field is a friend from their study group, so they are in the stands to support them. It is more the HS model. I think the biggest issue with the "club" Scenerio is trying to figure out how to absorb the cost of uniforms and pads. The kids that are able to afford to make that purchase probably don't have the talent level that anyone actually wants to see. Ha.

[Go Green]

Dartmouth hoops team votes 13-2 to unionize under the SEIU banner. I’m sure that GoGreen, the George Meany of the Ivy League, is 100% behind his guys!



They went out later that day and played their best ball of the season, spanking Harvard.

That's a very good way to impress me! Go Union!!!

:)

[Go Green]

What if Dartmouth chooses not to field a team? The NH union rules can't force them to do so.

I am not a labor law expert. But I would be very surprised if Dartmouth could just shut down the team out of spite without suffering any legal consequences. Even if such were the case, I think it would be a dick move on Dartmouth's part to shut down the team because the players formed a union. That's not our style.

Would also likely be perceived as racist...

In any event, by all appearances, Dartmouth appears to have decided to challenge the unionization in court. That will take a while. Maybe they win. Maybe they don't. But at a minimum, everyone will have calmed down by the time it's over...

In the meantime, a coaching change is expected. The current coach has been there seven years and hasn't inspired confidence that he can build a winner in Hanover. Should be interesting to see how the unionization affects the coaching position...

[DFW HOYA]

Would also likely be perceived as racist...


Why?

[Go Green]

Why?

Because it's the basketball team.

There are dynamics that wouldn't be present if, say, the ski team voted to unionize.

[DFW HOYA]

Because it's the basketball team.

There are dynamics that wouldn't be present if, say, the ski team voted to unionize.

This is a slippery slope argument. More black students run track at Dartmouth than play basketball. Is that out as well?

[MR. CHICKEN]

I am not a labor law expert. But I would be very surprised if Dartmouth could just shut down the team out of spite without suffering any legal consequences. Even if such were the case, I think it would be a dick move on Dartmouth's part to shut down the team because the players formed a union. That's not our style.

Would also likely be perceived as racist...

In any event, by all appearances, Dartmouth appears to have decided to challenge the unionization in court. That will take a while. Maybe they win. Maybe they don't. But at a minimum, everyone will have calmed down by the time it's over...

In the meantime, a coaching change is expected. The current coach has been there seven years and hasn't inspired confidence that he can build a winner in Hanover. Should be interesting to see how the unionization affects the coaching position...

....DELAWARE DROPPED WRESTLIN' YEARS AGO......TO NO FUSS....THAT AH CAN RECALL...........SKOOLS DROP SPORTS TEAMS ALL DUH TIME.....TA COMPLY WHIFF GIRLY SPORTS....OR SAVE DUCATS......BRAWK!

[Milktruck74]

In the meantime, a coaching change is expected. The current coach has been there seven years and hasn't inspired confidence that he can build a winner in Hanover. Should be interesting to see how the unionization affects the coaching position...

I wonder if any candidates will turn them down because of the unionization piece...or maybe there are candidates that are more willing to jump on board because of it...but I do wonder if it has an impact on the coaching change.

[FUBeAR]

Well-balanced article on the matter -> https://www.highereddive.com/news/dartmouth-mens-basketball-players-vote-to-unionize/709375/

FUBeAR’s Fav’s …

“Dartmouth seems to be stuck in the past. It’s time for the age of amateurism to end.” - Cade Haskins (of Minneapolis) and Romeo Myrthil (of Sweden), Dartmouth Men’s Basketball Player Representatives (see FUBeAR’s signature for further commentary upon “amateurism” and intercollegiate athletics)

“Today is a big day for our team. We stuck together all season and won this election.” - Cade Haskins and Romeo Myrthil, Dartmouth Men’s Basketball Player Representatives (Dartmouth Men’s Basketball Record 2023-2024 - Overall: 6-21 PCT: .222 | Ivy: 2-12 PCT: .143)…7-21, if we count the election as a win…as they seem to. :D

“The Ivy League college also said its men’s basketball program operates in the red, costing it hundreds of thousands of dollars each year. This, the college argued, proves that the team is offered as “part of its holistic approach to education” rather than operated as a money-making endeavor.”

“Let’s work together to create a less exploitative business model…” - Cade Haskins and Romeo Myrthil, Dartmouth Men’s Basketball Player Representatives


…so these “employees” are having their “talents” “exploited” in order for Dartmouth to LOSE hundreds of thousands of dollars AND 21 Basketball games?


https://static.dc.com/dc/files/default_images/1567_400x600.jpg?w=400

ADDENDUM…

Mr. Haskins’ Playing Time the past 2 seasons…



Season
GP
GS
MIN
AVG MIN


2022-23
16
14
344
21.5


2023-24
10
0
25
2.5

[MSUBobcat]

....DELAWARE DROPPED WRESTLIN' YEARS AGO......TO NO FUSS....THAT AH CAN RECALL...........SKOOLS DROP SPORTS TEAMS ALL DUH TIME.....TA COMPLY WHIFF GIRLY SPORTS....OR SAVE DUCATS......BRAWK!

Yeah, there's no law that a school has to field a basketball team. If unionizing causes the team to be unsustainable financially, then the kids likely cut off their nose to spite the face.

EDIT: just saw FUBeAR's article that the Dartmouth basketball program loses HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS to field a team with 6 whole wins. If this is the "business model", Dartmouth MBB "employees" should have been fired long ago.

[ngineer]

If that is the way you want to view it. For the vast majority of people, college sports isn't about money or a job. It is an extra curricular activity, not a "job." The monies obtained from the programs fund the athletic departments. The ONLY reason this is an issue is because it is about money and how much some people seem to think they can get out of the system. These are the evil forces I mentioned above. That they will eventually destroy the source of that money by alienating the grassroots fans (other students who grow into adult fans) doesn't seem to compute, unfortunately.

It may survive for a while, but the long term prognosis will be bleak. There is a sense of connection that students and fans feel in regard to the "student athletes" at their school. Make them employees and the connection will be about as close as it is with the janitors or grounds keepers. And in this brave new world of change, while janitors and ground keepers are actually necessary, a jobs program for "employee athletes" isn't necessary and ripe for budget cuts at the vast majority of schools. So who will ultimately suffer?

Agreed. I am hopeful that once this gets to federal court, it will be knocked down. I don't see the students as "employees". Typically, in business, an employee is hired to provide a service to the company as part of the company's effort to make a profit. Except for the big Power 5, there are no schools making a "profit"...especially at the FCS/DII/DIII level, where athletics is viewed as a 'extra-curricular' activity. Indeed, many schools have used their athletic programs as a means to expand education in areas such as leadership, exposure to community involvement. This is where I can see Congress getting involved (though the thought makes me cringe). Have those schools who want to be 'big time' just carve out those sports and create, in essence, a set of minor league conferences where it is a profit-driven business. Pay the players, everyone pays their respective taxes, workers compensation, social security, health care, etc.
The rest of us just go back to being schools where the students are playing football for fun and learning and receiving grants-in-aid. I don't think the Dartmouth players have thought this entirely through. If they are being "paid" via a scholarship, they will owe taxes (fed, state, local). The scholarships are not 'cash'. They are basically a 'credit' provided toward tuition, room and board. Now, the student has to come up with the cash to pay the taxes on the credit received.

[MR. CHICKEN]

[QUOTE=Go Green;3179437]I am not a labor law expert. But I would be very surprised if Dartmouth could just shut down the team out of spite without suffering any legal consequences. Even if such were the case, I think it would be a dick move on Dartmouth's part to shut down the team because the players formed a union. That's not our style.

Would also likely be perceived as racist...




......HOFSTRA....DROPPED FOOTBALL...TA START UH MEDICAL SKOOL........HAD PLENTY UH BLACK PLAYERS....WHEN THEY USED TA VISIT DELAWARE.......AWK!

[Milktruck74]

Agreed. I am hopeful that once this gets to federal court, it will be knocked down. I don't see the students as "employees". Typically, in business, an employee is hired to provide a service to the company as part of the company's effort to make a profit. Except for the big Power 5, there are no schools making a "profit"...especially at the FCS/DII/DIII level, where athletics is viewed as a 'extra-curricular' activity. Indeed, many schools have used their athletic programs as a means to expand education in areas such as leadership, exposure to community involvement. This is where I can see Congress getting involved (though the thought makes me cringe). Have those schools who want to be 'big time' just carve out those sports and create, in essence, a set of minor league conferences where it is a profit-driven business. Pay the players, everyone pays their respective taxes, workers compensation, social security, health care, etc.
The rest of us just go back to being schools where the students are playing football for fun and learning and receiving grants-in-aid. I don't think the Dartmouth players have thought this entirely through. If they are being "paid" via a scholarship, they will owe taxes (fed, state, local). The scholarships are not 'cash'. They are basically a 'credit' provided toward tuition, room and board. Now, the student has to come up with the cash to pay the taxes on the credit received.

Agreed, the only stipulation employers must follow on wages in the legal minimum wage. And that is only if the employee is a w2 employee and not a 1099. The union can make demands, but nowhere does it say the school must agree to them. Now, in solidarity, other unionized employees might choose to walk out...figuring those are probably janitorial, grounds, food services staffs. But what keeps the School from asking the unionized employees (err Athletes) to share in the cost of maintaining the program? And if a player doesn't show up on time for practice, can the coach fire him and drop his scholarship mid season? So, in the scenario of a football player being late for practice and being fired in early October, do they have to pay half of the semester's tuition to remain in classes? I drive a company owned car, if I get fired, that "company owned asset" is immediately taken from me, so isn't permission to attend a lecture also a "company owned asset"? There are way too many questions to be answered to just jump into this...but hey, based on the number of wins the team has had overt the last few years, the READY FIRE AIM approach seems to fall right in line with their shooting style.

[MR. CHICKEN]

Agreed. I am hopeful that once this gets to federal court, it will be knocked down. I don't see the students as "employees". Typically, in business, an employee is hired to provide a service to the company as part of the company's effort to make a profit. Except for the big Power 5, there are no schools making a "profit"...especially at the FCS/DII/DIII level, where athletics is viewed as a 'extra-curricular' activity. Indeed, many schools have used their athletic programs as a means to expand education in areas such as leadership, exposure to community involvement. This is where I can see Congress getting involved (though the thought makes me cringe). Have those schools who want to be 'big time' just carve out those sports and create, in essence, a set of minor league conferences where it is a profit-driven business. Pay the players, everyone pays their respective taxes, workers compensation, social security, health care, etc.
The rest of us just go back to being schools where the students are playing football for fun and learning and receiving grants-in-aid. I don't think the Dartmouth players have thought this entirely through. If they are being "paid" via a scholarship, they will owe taxes (fed, state, local). The scholarships are not 'cash'. They are basically a 'credit' provided toward tuition, room and board. Now, the student has to come up with the cash to pay the taxes on the credit received.

....ONE REASON SKOOLS WHOM LOSE DUCATS....CONTINUE......IS....IT'S UH BARGAIN......TUH HAVE.....NAME/BRAND/MASCOT BE SEEN.....UD AD CHRISSI RAWAK......SAID BY GETTIN' UH GAME ON ESPN....40X SETS UH EYES....WOOD SEE DELAWARE & LOGO....THAN IFIN' STILL ON FLO TV.........SO IF 200,000 TUNE IN....FLO...........8 MILLION VIEWERS.......FO' DUH ESPNS........BRAWK!

[UNHWildcat18]

I think the whole thing is ridiculous, and unnecessary and can cause a lot of issues.

[taper]

Agreed. I am hopeful that once this gets to federal court, it will be knocked down. I don't see the students as "employees". Typically, in business, an employee is hired to provide a service to the company as part of the company's effort to make a profit. Except for the big Power 5, there are no schools making a "profit"...especially at the FCS/DII/DIII level, where athletics is viewed as a 'extra-curricular' activity. Indeed, many schools have used their athletic programs as a means to expand education in areas such as leadership, exposure to community involvement. This is where I can see Congress getting involved (though the thought makes me cringe). Have those schools who want to be 'big time' just carve out those sports and create, in essence, a set of minor league conferences where it is a profit-driven business. Pay the players, everyone pays their respective taxes, workers compensation, social security, health care, etc.
The rest of us just go back to being schools where the students are playing football for fun and learning and receiving grants-in-aid. I don't think the Dartmouth players have thought this entirely through. If they are being "paid" via a scholarship, they will owe taxes (fed, state, local). The scholarships are not 'cash'. They are basically a 'credit' provided toward tuition, room and board. Now, the student has to come up with the cash to pay the taxes on the credit received.
I wouldn't count on courts striking any of this down. Alston was a 9-0 decision and SCOTUS was practically begging for more cases to be sent their way. Simple reality is D1 athletics is a business. I don't know when that transition was, but it definitely happened. I just hope D3 isn't put out of existence.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Fear of change is pretty natural. New models for collegiate athletics are a given at this point. As one of the Dartmouth players pointed out.. "Our Managers have always been paid. We players have not." No question that the NCAA, schools, and conferences have gotten away with restraint of trade forever. College sports will be around, but look a bit different.

Interesting point. Times may have changed, but I also remember at the time I was in college, student managers for sports teams were made MUCH, MUCH less than they would have made had they been paid for every hour worked. Reason being, federal work study only allowed you to work and get paid for a certain number of hours a week (because the Dept. of Education wants you to actually study, not just work) -- don't remember the exact # but it was at most 10-12 hours. And the actual # of hours worked was a lot closer to 30 than it was to 10. So student managers are also really getting paid pennies on the dollar. And they also also aren't getting scholarships or grant-in aid.

[KnightoftheRedFlash]

If they want to form an union then they can be fired for poor performance. They were terrible this year.

Start firing, Dartmouth.

[POD Knows]

If they want to form an union then they can be fired for poor performance. They were terrible this year.

Start firing, Dartmouth.
Actually it might be tougher to fire them for poor performance.

[BisonFan02]

Actually it might be tougher to fire them for poor performance.

More likely to discourage good performance that would make the card carrying members look bad...better off being equally terrible.

[caribbeanhen]

More likely to discourage good performance that would make the card carrying members look bad...better off being equally terrible.

5 sick games a year with full benifits

[POD Knows]

More likely to discourage good performance that would make the card carrying members look bad...better off being equally terrible.
And this too. Mediocrity will reign supreme

[NY Crusader 2010]

Yeah, there's no law that a school has to field a basketball team. If unionizing causes the team to be unsustainable financially, then the kids likely cut off their nose to spite the face.

EDIT: just saw FUBeAR's article that the Dartmouth basketball program loses HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS to field a team with 6 whole wins. If this is the "business model", Dartmouth MBB "employees" should have been fired long ago.

99.99% of all sports programs in the NCAA lose money. There are only a handful of athletic departments as a whole that aren't in the red. I wonder what the end-game is for the Dartmouth basketball team and what they hope to accomplish with their union. There's no revenue to share. As pointed out, the university loses hundreds of thousands every year so that these young men can live out their dream of playing Division I basketball while receiving a world-class education...an education that might not have been available to them without basketball.

I would imagine the goal of any collective bargaining in this case would be to:

- Set boundaries as far as number of hours can be devoted to team activities and/or times of day that staff can/cannot schedule meetings practices or lifts
- Health benefits
- FCOA (I'm sure Dartmouth never provided this)
- Obviously NCAA still doesn't allow schools to outright pay players so an institutional paycheck is out of the question, but perhaps the union could force the school to provide resources to assist players with whatever NIL deals might be available.

They also could try to negotiate things like meal quality, access to better facilities and travel accommodations but again not sure what leverage union would have given that the school has budget constraints for athletics without revenue to offset.

[DFW HOYA]

FWIW, labor cases don't care at all whether a company makes money or not.

[Milktruck74]

99.99% of all sports programs in the NCAA lose money. There are only a handful of athletic departments as a whole that aren't in the red. I wonder what the end-game is for the Dartmouth basketball team and what they hope to accomplish with their union. There's no revenue to share. As pointed out, the university loses hundreds of thousands every year so that these young men can live out their dream of playing Division I basketball while receiving a world-class education...an education that might not have been available to them without basketball.

I would imagine the goal of any collective bargaining in this case would be to:

- Set boundaries as far as number of hours can be devoted to team activities and/or times of day that staff can/cannot schedule meetings practices or lifts
- Health benefits
- FCOA (I'm sure Dartmouth never provided this)
- Obviously NCAA still doesn't allow schools to outright pay players so an institutional paycheck is out of the question, but perhaps the union could force the school to provide resources to assist players with whatever NIL deals might be available.

They also could try to negotiate things like meal quality, access to better facilities and travel accommodations but again not sure what leverage union would have given that the school has budget constraints for athletics without revenue to offset.

While your list of collective bargaining goals is nice, none of this is about achieving those goals. This is purely about getting a pay check on top of their scholarship. They want spending money.

Besides, couldn't those goals be addressed by the team/team captain with the coach and the AD without having to pay the AFL-CIO dues? I remember when a group of players went to our coach because practices were running late and the cafe was closed before many of us could get there...Well, it was taken care of...and we did not get to leave practice early...but it was addressed and the issue of not being able to eat was taken care of. We didn't need a union rep to handle it.

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FWIW, labor cases don't care at all whether a company makes money or not.


TRUTH...

[caribbeanhen]

When will the fans get paid to attend?

[NY Crusader 2010]

While your list of collective bargaining goals is nice, none of this is about achieving those goals. This is purely about getting a pay check on top of their scholarship. They want spending money.

Besides, couldn't those goals be addressed by the team/team captain with the coach and the AD without having to pay the AFL-CIO dues? I remember when a group of players went to our coach because practices were running late and the cafe was closed before many of us could get there...Well, it was taken care of...and we did not get to leave practice early...but it was addressed and the issue of not being able to eat was taken care of. We didn't need a union rep to handle it.

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TRUTH...

I think the unionization trend is looking bigger picture than a cafe though...an Ivy League basketball coach doesn't have the clout that Pitino or Boeheim have at their schools. A union is the vehicle the student athletes believe will get them things like compensation, scheduling and travel accommodations, health benefits, etc. Of course, the other side of being in a union is that as a card-carrying member you PAY dues. Unions are a business, union members are the customers.

[taper]

More likely to discourage good performance that would make the card carrying members look bad...better off being equally terrible.
The players better consult with their Ivy League lawyers before doing that. Work slow downs are illegal and courts regularly rule against them.

[Go Green]

If they want to form an union then they can be fired for poor performance. They were terrible this year.

Start firing, Dartmouth.

The team was 5-21 before the union vote.

The team was 1-0 after the union vote.

Draw your own conclusions. :)

[Milktruck74]

The team was 5-21 before the union vote.

The team was 1-0 after the union vote.

Draw your own conclusions. :)

If they win the Ivy Tourney, I'll be sure to pick them into the Sweet 16 in my office bracket.

[uni88]

The players better consult with their Ivy League lawyers before doing that. Work slow downs are illegal and courts regularly rule against them.

It wouldn't be a stoppage or slow down. Union rules could prohibit conduct detrimental to other union members so they just might simply not play defense against other SEIU teams.

[FUBeAR]

The team was 5-21 before the union vote.

The team was 1-0 after the union vote.

Draw your own conclusions. :)Obviously, we can only conclude that organized crime remains the primary controlling force within all Labor Unions.

[Ivytalk]

The team was 5-21 before the union vote.

The team was 1-0 after the union vote.

Draw your own conclusions. :)

Dartmouth hasn’t won an Ivy hoops title since 1959. Draw your own conclusions!

[atthewbon]

There was an increase in TV Ratings for College Football, specifically the CFP and P5.

What does that mean for us? Nothing.

In fact, I won't be surprised if quite a few of us drop scholarships and decrease emphasis on football and athletics in general, turning them into large Club Sport operations. We're honestly about a year and a half from seeing this starting.

I think the end result of all of this is having two different distinctions of college sports. Football, basketball, baseball/softball, and maybe a few others at the big schools operate as semipro or professional leagues where players are paid and the rest of college sports operate essentially as club sports or at least hyper regionalized sport specific conferences. To me this makes sense, at least for the big schools, why should the tens of millions of dollars the football team generates go to funding the growing travel costs of all the other sports while the players get a fraction of it. I don't know where I heard it but I remember reading that one of the questions schools have been asking prospective ADs is are you prepared to be the face of cutting sports at this school. I think it's inevitable and has been caused by the NCAA's complacency in this issue. FCS schools are in a tough place, because they are big enough where they don't want all sports to become slightly larger club sports but don't have the money to keep up in the changing landscape that will likely require athletes to be paid.

[Wolffan]

Nothing wrong with Dartmouth negotiating over fair wages with their basketball team and being unable to come to terms. The kids can decide if they want to play or not play for the school team in that situation. If not, the kids can play intramurals, shoot around at the student gym, or transfer. That goes for all the school sports at Dartmouth.

If this unionization trend continues, other schools may or may not wish to come to terms with their student athletes.

[bulldog10jw]

If they win the Ivy Tourney, I'll be sure to pick them into the Sweet 16 in my office bracket.

They didn't make the Ivy Tournament

[Go Green]

Dartmouth hasn’t won an Ivy hoops title since 1959.

We haven't won a men's title since 1959.

We've won plenty of women's basketball titles since then.

[FUBeAR]

Nothing wrong with Dartmouth negotiating over fair wages with their basketball team and being unable to come to terms. The kids can decide if they want to play or not play for the school team in that situation. If not, the kids can play intramurals, shoot around at the student gym, or transfer. That goes for all the school sports at Dartmouth.

If this unionization trend continues, other schools may or may not wish to come to terms with their student athletes.
Fair wages?

If we assume this is a true statement: “The Ivy League college also said its men’s basketball program operates in the red, costing it hundreds of thousands of dollars each year.”

AND if we take that at its minimum ($200,000) and divide that amount among the 15 Players on the Dartmouth roster and divide their wages across 27 games, then their “fair wages” would be…

-$493.83 per game.

So, Players would be required to PAY at least ~$500 / game to be on the Team.

Or…one could suppose they could pay more for more playing time. There are 200 Player/Minutes per game available, so they could (fairly) ‘pay-to-play’ @ ~$37.00 / minute (minimum).

Seems FAIR

[caribbeanhen]

Fair wages?

If we assume this is a true statement: “The Ivy League college also said its men’s basketball program operates in the red, costing it hundreds of thousands of dollars each year.”

AND if we take that at its minimum ($200,000) and divide that amount among the 15 Players on the Dartmouth roster and divide their wages across 27 games, then their “fair wages” would be -$493.83 per game. So, Players would be required to PAY at least ~$500 / game to be on the Team.

Or…one could suppose they could pay more for more playing time. There are 200 Player/Minutes per game available, so they could (fairly) ‘pay-to-play’ @ ~$37.00 / minute (minimum).

Seems FAIR

not only fair but logical as well

[NY Crusader 2010]

Fair wages?

If we assume this is a true statement: “The Ivy League college also said its men’s basketball program operates in the red, costing it hundreds of thousands of dollars each year.”

AND if we take that at its minimum ($200,000) and divide that amount among the 15 Players on the Dartmouth roster and divide their wages across 27 games, then their “fair wages” would be…

-$493.83 per game.

So, Players would be required to PAY at least ~$500 / game to be on the Team.

Or…one could suppose they could pay more for more playing time. There are 200 Player/Minutes per game available, so they could (fairly) ‘pay-to-play’ @ ~$37.00 / minute (minimum).

Seems FAIR

As DFW Hoya pointed out, unions don't care whether their employers are profitable or not (look at the MTA in New York City!!). However, this is a great prospective when you compare it to how labor negotiations are done in the NBA. Since the NBA has a salary cap, the collective bargaining agreement always starts with what % of total revenue goes to the players. It is REVENUE they go off of, not PROFIT, of course, since it's not the union members' (the players) responsibility to manage the business side of the league.

At Dartmouth, the revenue would consist of ticket sales and concessions at home games + guarantee game paychecks + NCAA Tournament shares + the school's cut of whatever Ivy League TV contracts bring in.

Ticket & Concessions -- I'm going to estimate 500 PAID ticket sales per game and average attendance of 800. If every paid ticket sells for let's say an average of $20, that's $10,000 in revenue per home game in ticket sales. If every attendee, paid or unpaid, spends an average of $10 on concessions, that's $8,000 per game. Let's assume they kept ALL gate revenue from each home game and didn't write checks to cover the travel costs of the 3 non-DI teams they hosted. That's $18,000 in revenue multiplied by 13 home games. That's an estimated $234,000 in total revenue from home games in Hanover.

Buy Games -- Really good buy games in Men's Basketball pay between $90,000 and $100,000. This year, Dartmouth secured road dates with Duke, St. Louis and Vanderbilt. I'm assuming these are all pure buy games and not home-and-home deals. Let's generously estimate Dartmouth got paid an average of $80,000 for those three games. That's $240,000 in revenue from buy games.

NCAA Share -- An NCAA share is $2 million distributed to each conference based on how many appearances the conference has. For example, last year Princeton made it to the Sweet 16. That's 3 appearances, so $6 million to the Ivy split throughout the league. Let's be somewhat generous again and assume the Ivy averages TWO appearances annually. That's $4 million divided by 8 schools so about $500,000 for Dartmouth.

TV Contract -- Tough to estimate this because I can't find any data about the actual $$$ amount of the Ivy League multi-year ESPN deal. Plus, it's multi-sport and I'm not sure you could isolate a dollar amount per program. So going to leave this out of the calculation. I'm guessing the per-school revenue generated in the Ivy League specific to basketball is probably not much on an annualized basis. $25K tops?

So total REVENUE generated by Dartmouth basketball team is estimated by my count to be about $974,000. And that's being generous. Most years, the Ivy doesn't see multiple NCAA appearances, and Dartmouth probably doesn't get 3 buy games every year if I had to guess. I also am probably a little high on the ticket revenue. I quick search also didn't yield specific data for Dartmouth MBB operating expenses but I'll use Princeton as a benchmark. Princeton spends $1.7 million so I'll estimate Dartmouth at $1.1 million. So I would OPINE that Dartmouth hoops loses AT LEAST $130,000 each year but the typical number is probably close to $250,000, if not $300,000.

[Yote 53]

I could see all college sports eventually turn into the Club Sports model. If you want an idea of what that would look like do a little research on ACHA hockey. There are more than 460 college and university affiliated teams that play in 5 divisions (3 men & 2 women) with programs at schools ranging from the SEC and Big Ten schools to small schools like Minot State. The teams operate not much different than a youth sports club. The club can own their own/lease facilities, employ their own staff, etc.

Under this type of model, the club would recruit players to the school, pay them some sort of compensation package to join the club, the recruit would be on their own to enroll in the school and pay tuition, most likely from the compensation package from the club. School athletic departments would cease to exist and instead the school would sponsor the clubs with limited oversight. The club would be responsible for running the sport program, revenue generation, coaching/player/travel expense, etc. The clubs at different schools would join a governing body that standardizes the rules for all the clubs in the body. Schools are off the hook and get back to the education business and not having to worry about the budgets of the vast, vast majority of ADs that lose money, yet still reap the benefits of having sports at their schools.

This might actually be a good thing for some men's sports as you would see sports like hockey, baseball, wrestling, soccer, and lacrosse become bigger at schools that don't have AD sponsored varsity programs because of Title 9 issues. They would be allowed to grow and elevate in stature, kind of like what is happening at many ACHA programs at SEC schools right now.

Honestly, I don't know how Title 9 would apply under this model. It might be the end of women's sports and non-revenue sports or those sports that don't make money would have to do fundraising and the players would have to pay participation fees, not much different than youth sports in this country. I think it would really hurt the non-revenue and Olympic sports, or maybe schools continue to offer those sports under a D3 type of model.

American Collegiate Hockey Association (ACHA) (achahockey.org) (https://www.achahockey.org/)

[Milktruck74]

I'm wondering if Title iX can just go away altogether. Vandy had a female kicker play in a game a few years back, so technically Football is now a coed sport...right? Anatomy and a y chromosome doesn't really matter if you want to dominate women's sports...and people will cheer that on...so why even have title ix. Seriously though, the hockey thing is interesting. I was kind of thinking the european soccer model, where the team is part of the town and the schools focus purely on education.

[NY Crusader 2010]

I could see all college sports eventually turn into the Club Sports model. If you want an idea of what that would look like do a little research on ACHA hockey. There are more than 460 college and university affiliated teams that play in 5 divisions (3 men & 2 women) with programs at schools ranging from the SEC and Big Ten schools to small schools like Minot State. The teams operate not much different than a youth sports club. The club can own their own/lease facilities, employ their own staff, etc.

Under this type of model, the club would recruit players to the school, pay them some sort of compensation package to join the club, the recruit would be on their own to enroll in the school and pay tuition, most likely from the compensation package from the club. School athletic departments would cease to exist and instead the school would sponsor the clubs with limited oversight. The club would be responsible for running the sport program, revenue generation, coaching/player/travel expense, etc. The clubs at different schools would join a governing body that standardizes the rules for all the clubs in the body. Schools are off the hook and get back to the education business and not having to worry about the budgets of the vast, vast majority of ADs that lose money, yet still reap the benefits of having sports at their schools.

This might actually be a good thing for some men's sports as you would see sports like hockey, baseball, wrestling, soccer, and lacrosse become bigger at schools that don't have AD sponsored varsity programs because of Title 9 issues. They would be allowed to grow and elevate in stature, kind of like what is happening at many ACHA programs at SEC schools right now.

Honestly, I don't know how Title 9 would apply under this model. It might be the end of women's sports and non-revenue sports or those sports that don't make money would have to do fundraising and the players would have to pay participation fees, not much different than youth sports in this country. I think it would really hurt the non-revenue and Olympic sports, or maybe schools continue to offer those sports under a D3 type of model.

American Collegiate Hockey Association (ACHA) (achahockey.org) (https://www.achahockey.org/)

Title IX would apply to anything that's institution-funded, since the institution accepts federal dollars. If the student-athletes are the ones footing the bill for everything, then Title IX doesn't apply.

[NY Crusader 2010]

I'm wondering if Title iX can just go away altogether. Vandy had a female kicker play in a game a few years back, so technically Football is now a coed sport...right? Anatomy and a y chromosome doesn't really matter if you want to dominate women's sports...and people will cheer that on...so why even have title ix. Seriously though, the hockey thing is interesting. I was kind of thinking the european soccer model, where the team is part of the town and the schools focus purely on education.

Title IX isn't going anywhere because it's a piece of the 1964 Civil Rights Act that ensures all "protected classes" receive equitable funding and opportunity where Title IX is applied to institutions that accept federal dollars. I don't think there is any political appetite to repeal or strip the Civil Rights Act. Any college or university could avoid Title IX implications by refusing to accept federal funding. I believe Hillsdale College in Michigan is an example of a school that does this.

[taper]

When I played rec league softball we had to have at least as many women as men on the team. Something similar for college club sports almost certainly satisfies Title IX.

[FUBeAR]

As DFW Hoya pointed out, unions don't care whether their employers are profitable or not (look at the MTA in New York City!!). However, this is a great prospective when you compare it to how labor negotiations are done in the NBA. Since the NBA has a salary cap, the collective bargaining agreement always starts with what % of total revenue goes to the players. It is REVENUE they go off of, not PROFIT, of course, since it's not the union members' (the players) responsibility to manage the business side of the league.
Thought you were headed to where some of the Sales Peeps that worked for FUBeAR used to go…

FUBeAR: “Hey Reppie, FUBeAR noticed you are selling our products at a $1.00 loss per unit. What up wit dat?”

Reppie: “Don’t worry, Mr. FUBeAR. We gonna make it up in volume!”

[DFW HOYA]

Title IX isn't going anywhere because it's a piece of the 1964 Civil Rights Act that ensures all "protected classes" receive equitable funding and opportunity where Title IX is applied to institutions that accept federal dollars. I don't think there is any political appetite to repeal or strip the Civil Rights Act. Any college or university could avoid Title IX implications by refusing to accept federal funding. I believe Hillsdale College in Michigan is an example of a school that does this.

Club sports run independently of the college are not subject to Title IX, nor are collectives.

Title IX is bad law in its application. It was never meant to address sports.

[Yote 53]

Title IX would apply to anything that's institution-funded, since the institution accepts federal dollars. If the student-athletes are the ones footing the bill for everything, then Title IX doesn't apply.
So under the model I outlined, Title 9 might not apply. The school sponsors the club (basically gives them there blessing) and the club handles all the financials.

[NY Crusader 2010]

So under the model I outlined, Title 9 might not apply. The school sponsors the club (basically gives them there blessing) and the club handles all the financials.

Title IX would definitely not apply if the club handles all the financials.

[KnightoftheRedFlash]

Club sports run independently of the college are not subject to Title IX, nor are collectives.

Title IX is bad law in its application. It was never meant to address sports.

Most laws are bad laws. Government usually fails.

[WestCoastAggie]

Title IX would definitely not apply if the club handles all the financials.

Not if students pay student activity fees for this.

When I was at A&T, the school charged student activity fees. Those fees would go towards numerous student activities, including intramural sports. The refs who called the games were paid as student workers. Some schools even have a Club Football program where the school pays for pads, other equipment, and other items for the students. Some schools even recruit for the club team.

I doubt schools would cut student activities funding.

[Go...gate]

Karen Carpenter
these are the good ole days

Karen was wrong

interest in college football was already on the wane and I just don’t see how the direction it’s all going now is going to sustain any type of long-term fan growth ….

Carly Simon, from "Anticipation" (1970)

[caribbeanhen]

Carly Simon, from "Anticipation" (1970)

ah yes thank you for the correction

The Ketchup song