Patriot League: Fine Tuning the Patsy Ratings I

[carney2]

IF we are to continue the Patsy Ratings of recruiting classes we have to address some of the shortcomings. The biggest problem with the year one effort was its inability to address the question of "meeting needs." I have not yet given much thought to the specifics, but it is certain that no single individual on this board is able to answer that question for all 7 schools. I am therefore requesting that interested and knowledgeable members of this community (you know who you are) use this thread to supply a list of your program's biggest needs in the current recruiting class. Please PRIORITIZE them, listing at least 3.

Oh yeah, it shouldn't need to be stated, but be aware

WE ARE NOT INTERESTED IN THE TEAM'S NEEDS FOR THE 2008 SEASON. CHANCES OF A FRESHMAN MAKING THAT MUCH OF A CONTRIBUTION ARE SLIM. THINK LONGER TERM. LOOK AT THE PIPELINE AND THE UPPERCLASSMEN WHO WILL EVENTUALLY NEED TO BE REPLACED. THINK 2010 AND 2011.

[LBPop]

WE ARE NOT INTERESTED IN THE TEAM'S NEEDS FOR THE 2008 SEASON. CHANCES OF A FRESHMAN MAKING THAT MUCH OF A CONTRIBUTION ARE SLIM.

Your parameters are quite accurate except when you are considering a program that has won three games in two years, is losing two of its three most productive offensive players (including QB) and has a line that averages about 35 lbs. to 50 lbs. less than its opposition. Simply put, if you are a high school senior, you can play QB in an option (sort of) offense, or you weigh at least 260 lbs. and can move around a little, you should think about the District of Columbia for your next four years. Those undersized linemen need some depth behind them and a QB would be nice. I guess we could say that there are several job openings. xrolleyesx

[DFW HOYA]

Needs for the class of 2012:
1. Offense
2. Defense
3. Special teams

Other than that..

There is a lot of work to be done, and even more than some might expect.

In any event, by the time this thread is complete, I'm thinking Carney won't have the Hoyas in his top six.

[OLPOP]

Carney-- Fordham's experience in '07 was that freshmen can have an immediate impact. By season's end, 10 were on the 2-deep and 6 were getting significant playing time. In the playoff game at UMASS the MVP was arguably a freshman linebacker. You are clearly right,however, that you can't count on that kind of contribution from freshmen very often.

[ngineer]

I would view Lehigh's primary needs in terms of 3 years out to be in the line. Supposedly, we currently have two very good Sophs competing for QB and a nice QB potential recruit. The RB stable appears deep with two frosh getting significant reps this year. IMO you can never have enough big bodies, who can move, on both sides of the trench. If your OL can open holes you don't need 5-star RBs--good, solid RBs will get you what you need. On the DL, we need a few more sizeable studs that will stop the run and allow the LB's to make plays. We seem fairly deep at LB right now. Secondary will be retooling this year---couple return, but need more depth and size. At WR we have some nice frosh that should turn dividends in near future--and heard there's a possibility Donchez may be eligible for a medical redshirt. So in summary:

1. OL
2. DB
3. DL

Postscript: Once we see the Spring Game, we'll know whether QB needs more attention than thought.

[carney2]

Carney-- Fordham's experience in '07 was that freshmen can have an immediate impact. By season's end, 10 were on the 2-deep and 6 were getting significant playing time. In the playoff game at UMASS the MVP was arguably a freshman linebacker. You are clearly right,however, that you can't count on that kind of contribution from freshmen very often.

Fordham, 2007 is the exception that proves the rule. There are other exceptions such as Jordan Scott at Colgate who has been a contributor since day 1. (Let's not take this comment into the land of current events, if you please.) Fordham, 2006 on the other hand, also proved the rule when many freshmen were thrown into battle and the results were pretty much as you'd expect. Generally speaking, if you are depending on freshmen, you will be disappointed.

Our loyal Hoya posters point out that the Patriot League's representative from inside the Beltway needs just about everything. Duly noted and agreed. Still, if this is going to work we need to be more specific. Which pieces of "everything" would be the most helpful? One person mentioned QB, and I agree. It is the most important position on a college football team. (Need you look past Fordham and Holy Cross in 2007 for further proof?!) Where do we go from there? Actually - and again relying on what has already been said - I would list Georgetown's top 3 "needs" as

1. Quality. Need to see a number of recruits with ratings by the recruiting services, regardless of position.
2. Quarterback
3. Size in the offensive line

I am treading softly here because this is going to be VERY subjective in the end - and the final call will, I guess, be mine unless someone else wants to take this over. If, for instance, Georgetown signs 3 quarterbacks, but none were on the radar of any recruiting services, did they meet their needs?

[Fordham]

Interesting thread. Let me throw one other wrinkle in this discussion - in our spread offense, quick WR's are critical and we had mostly Fr. & So's fill that spot this year, which I don't think most would list as a 'need' for us for the next few years. If we go out and land a guy who breaks into the starting lineup at WR, though, and therefore must be considered an upgrade for us, didn't we help out the team more than by signing a big time TE, for instance? Again, even though it's not a 'need', it is a critical spot for us (as opposed to the TE in this offense ... much to my chagrin). I'm throwing this out for discussion fodder as opposed to trying to torpedo the thread but I really do feel like at FCS the need is simply to try to recruit as much talent as you can since guys can be moved so that talent finds its way on the field.

That said, imo, here's the Fordham hit list:

1. Punter/Kicker

2. Size on the Dline

3. Big Uglies

[Tribe4SF]

The discussion of Patriot League recruiting has to be seen as relative at this point. Beyond the needs of each team, the larger question continues to be the league as a whole, and the members ability to draw upper level FCS recruits. A quick review of each teams board on Rivals shows that the league as a whole is not being mentioned by many prospects. League champ Fordham has only two names on its list.

Georgetown, by the way, has a commitment from a pretty good QB from Illinois.

[hc12]

1.run defense
2.forget the 3-4
3.d-linemen
4. middle linebackers
5.big run stopping safeties

[carney2]

The discussion of Patriot League recruiting has to be seen as relative at this point. Beyond the needs of each team, the larger question continues to be the league as a whole, and the members ability to draw upper level FCS recruits. A quick review of each teams board on Rivals shows that the league as a whole is not being mentioned by many prospects. League champ Fordham has only two names on its list.

Georgetown, by the way, has a commitment from a pretty good QB from Illinois.

All true. Not much can be done about it between now and February's signing day, however.

Good news for Georgetown. Am now looking forward to their announcement.

[carney2]

Interesting thread. Let me throw one other wrinkle in this discussion - in our spread offense, quick WR's are critical and we had mostly Fr. & So's fill that spot this year, which I don't think most would list as a 'need' for us for the next few years. If we go out and land a guy who breaks into the starting lineup at WR, though, and therefore must be considered an upgrade for us, didn't we help out the team more than by signing a big time TE, for instance? Again, even though it's not a 'need', it is a critical spot for us (as opposed to the TE in this offense ... much to my chagrin). I'm throwing this out for discussion fodder as opposed to trying to torpedo the thread but I really do feel like at FCS the need is simply to try to recruit as much talent as you can since guys can be moved so that talent finds its way on the field.

Other factors in the Patsy Rating, especially "quality points" should take care of this. I am attempting in this thread to plug what many saw as a hole in last year's system.

That said, all suggestions gratefully accepted. You might note that this thread is titled "Fine Tuning the Patsy Ratings I." The implication is that over the next 6 weeks I hope to address other issues and request your help/advice for making improvements.

[Go...gate]

Colgate needs more speed generally and a bit more size on the defensive line.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

What if you're Bucknell, with the same needs every year (durable runners, speed players, big "O" and "D" linemen") and you never get them?

[LBPop]

Good news for Georgetown. Am now looking forward to their announcement.

Do not hold your breath. According to the Head Coach, Georgetown's policy is not to release official signings until official acceptances are out and deposits have been received. That's why they are always very late to announce officially.

[Go...gate]

What if you're Bucknell, with the same needs every year (durable runners, speed players, big "O" and "D" linemen") and you never get them?


You develop what you have. Colgate has always had a couple of overachievers like that on its teams. AIR, wasn't Rich Lemon kinda unheralded? And look how he turned out! In the end, they are still kids and it's hard to measure the heart and desire.

[DFW HOYA]

Do not hold your breath. According to the Head Coach, Georgetown's policy is not to release official signings until official acceptances are out and deposits have been received. That's why they are always very late to announce officially.

That wasn't always the case. In prior years, the list would be in the Washington Post on National Signing Day alongside other schools. However, some commits on those lists didn't come through, so the resultant value of the announcement was somewhat ineffective.

Waiting until May doesn't win any publicity points on this board, but it seems a prudent strategy given some of the difficulties it is facing in recruiting.

[carney2]

Here is where we stand on this thread:

1. Based on responses here, other information I've gathered, and "facts"/opinions dancing around in my head, I think I have what I need for the following:
Fordham
Georgetown
Holy Cross
Lafayette
Lehigh

2. I have something, but would like more specifics for
Bucknell
Colgate

[breezy]

Carney --

Interesting discussions in this thread. However, I'll try to respond to your initial inquiry on recruiting priorities as regards Holy Cross.

I have always been a believer that you recruit to replace your juniors (i.e., the players who will be seniors while the recruits are freshmen). This gives the recruits one year to learn the system and develop through the strength and conditioning program, and they should then be ready to step up and contribute. I wholeheartedly agree that you cannot count on freshmen to make immediate contributions.

The HC junior class (i.e., 2008 seniors) has been very productive. On offense for 2008, HC loses only three starters (plus an all-league TE who was not a starter) -- two wide receivers (Maher and Harrison) and a tackle (Nolan). Last year HC recruited 8 wide receivers (6 were still on the roster at the end of the season); two of them made the two-deep as the season progressed. There are plenty of linemen ready to move up; one freshmen tackle also made the 2007 two-deep. Thus, there are not many needs on offense for 2008.

Unlike the offense, the HC defense suffered numerous injuries last year. Our big run-stuffing NT was lost for the season in the Georgetown game and the run defense really suffered. Graduation losses include one starting and one key reserve lineman, one starting linebacker and three starting DBs. There are underclassmen ready to step up on the line and at linebacker; DB has the most question marks. A freshman moved into the two-deep at free safety, and there is a reserve ready to step up at strong safety. There are a couple of candidates who will have the difficult task to try to replace Casey Gough at cornerback.

Looking primarily at 2008 seniors, here is my projection of HC recruiting needs by position.

QB -- You always need to recruit QBs, and HC needs to find another Randolph. Backup McSharry has graduated. There are still other good QBs on the roster, but finding at least 2 QBs who will compete for a starting role should be a priority.

RB -- Both RBs used extensively in 2007 will be seniors. There are some very good underclassmen RBs who got very little chance to play in 2007. A speedy RB with good hands would be nice, but quantity is not the biggest concern.

WR -- Using the spread offense requires many receivers, and HC can use a couple of receivers with good size and speed, but I think the class will have less than 8 WRs this year.

TE -- HC has not had a good blocking and receiving TE who is at least 250 pounds receive significant playing time for a few years now. It's not a priority in the system, but it would be nice to have at least one for those short-yardage or goal line plays where you need to get a yard or two.

OL -- Four OL starters will be seniors in 2008, so getting some linemen who have good size but are quick on their feet to provide pass protection is a priority so that there will be sufficient depth in 2009.

Thus, on offense, it appears that the highest priority would be linemen, followed by QB, RB, WR and TE.

On defense, HC suffered in 2007 from an inability to stop the run as well as the lack of a real pass rush. HC was vulnerable to giving up the big play and, in my view at least, suffered from an overall lack of speed.

DL -- The DL was young, with two spohomores and a freshman getting substantial playing time. With the return of the starting NT and reports that a couple of other freshmen are ready to step up, this may not be as much of a priority as some might think. Still, a good pash-rushing DE would be very welcome.

LB -- Barring surprises, I project two seniors and two juniors will be starting at linebacker in 2008. There are a couple of freshmen linebackers who appear to have the ability to step up as well. I look for HC to be recruiting linebackers who have good speed.

DB -- A couple of sophomore reserves got some time at cornerback in 2007due to injuries, but I am not in position to judge how ready they are to step up and become starters. Speed and quickness will also be priorities for recruiting this year.

Thus, on defense, there is a need for speed across the board and for some additional size on the line. Others may disagree, but I think the order of priorities should be DB, DL, and LB.

HC returns some solid kickers and its 2007 punter. Reportedly, HC already has a commitment from a punter from Florida, so the kicking game should be set.

Bottom line -- I see HC's recruiting priorities for this year to be:

1. Defensive backs
2. Offensive linemen
3. Defensive linemen
4. Quarterbacks
5. Linebackers
6. Running backs
7. Receivers

I again remind you this is one man's opinion. Others who have a better perspective may have different opinions.

[hc12]

breezy, hc is recruiting 2 db from cleveland ohio with 4.2/4.3 speed both state finalist in track.They are brothers.Played for ohio power house st. ignatius high school.Both great man to man corners.I hope we get both.They are also trying to get a couple linebackers from the same school.But both want to play for bcs schools so we have a 50/50 chance to get them.

[breezy]

Thanks, hc12. I know you are familiar with St. Ignatius, and I hope HC is successful with its recruiting efforts there.

If you have any thoughts on my analysis, please send me a Private Message on the HC Board.

Happy New Year!

[bison137]

What if you're Bucknell, with the same needs every year (durable runners, speed players, big "O" and "D" linemen") and you never get them?



You're 2/3's right. Too many injuries to RB's (All-PL RB Josh DeStefano missed most of the season and two of the three great frosh in 2006 - Bumpers and Forcellini - tore ACL's) and undersized linemen. However, the last two Bison recruiting classes have had tons of speed. For example, starting soph RB Rashod Bumpers set the Alabama large-class record in the 55 meters, and A.J. Kizekai won his NJ class in the 55. (The starting FB for the last part of the year, Corbin Erby, also won his class in the N.Y. 100 meters.) Of the most recent recruits, RB Isiah Bell was a big-school finalist in the Georgia 100 meters and had a 4.42 combine 40. WR Josh Lovett and two of the new DB's also had very good 40's.

The biggest problem is that it's hard for RB's to run with no blocking and it's hard for DB's to defend with no pass rush. Hence the two biggest recruiting needs for the Bison would be:

1. Lots of offensive linemen with some size.
2. Defensive linemen, especially NG/DT's, with some size and some ability to put pressure on the QB.

I suppose #3 would be for a good option QB who can also throw the ball. The other need would be for an offensive coordinator with some imagination. The old OC, who thankfully just departed to be Navy's OL coach, showed unbelievable predictability in his play calling, leaving the team far too often with third and long vs the good teams.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BTW, when it comes to "speed", we have to remember that many (most?) of the reported 40 times are bogus - either hand-timed, mis-timed, run with a rolling start, and/or run with a timer who starts the watch as the player starts running (i.e. no lag for reaction time). For example, the players mentioned above who allegedly run 4.2/4.3 40's. If a player could actually run a 4.2 40, he would be the world's fastest human - by a wide margin. When Ben Johnson ran the fastest time ever for 100 meters, thanks to great natural ability plus massive amounts of steroids, his 40 yard time was approximately 4.38. That's right - the fastest sprint in history produced a 4.38 forty. And that was on a perfect day on a fast track with spikes and a slight tailwind.

[Fordham]

Agreed in general on the fuzzy mathed 40 times, but wasn't Johnson's 4.38 for meters and not yards?

[bison137]

Agreed in general on the fuzzy mathed 40 times, but wasn't Johnson's 4.38 for meters and not yards?



No. Someone who didn't believe many of the 40 times broke it down for the 40 yard time. The same exercise has been done on other very fast 100 meter runs. One analysis had the best 40 ever run being a 4.31. That was a runner - maybe Maurice Green - who had a better start than Johnson but not as fast a top gear.

Many of the 40 times are made to look better because they start the clock when the runner breaks, which will cut at least several tenths of a second off of the time since there is then no reaction time added on.

[jdb037]

The biggest problem is that it's hard for RB's to run with no blocking and it's hard for DB's to defend with no pass rush. Hence the two biggest recruiting needs for the Bison would be:

1. Lots of offensive linemen with some size.
2. Defensive linemen, especially NG/DT's, with some size and some ability to put pressure on the QB.

I suppose #3 would be for a good option QB who can also throw the ball. The other need would be for an offensive coordinator with some imagination. The old OC, who thankfully just departed to be Navy's OL coach, showed unbelievable predictability in his play calling, leaving the team far too often with third and long vs the good teams.

I agree with what your saying and am so happy to finally see Ingram go, it was painful watching him run the offense, any idea on who they are considering of hiring? I'm sure Landis will continue to run the option offense but thats probably the reason why he has been getting smaller OL. This offense requires more speed than power, but even so, I would definitely be more comfortable seeing a couple big bruisers up front. Defensive linemen are also a necessity. With the loss of the likes of Walsh and Friday, there will be a couple spots open for the D-Line and hopefully Eden will get a little help from Braaf in the immediate future, but we need capable backups for the future. I love the idea of getting a new QB. When Lair, the Navy transfer, quit, we were forced to rely on two quarterbacks that were slower and less efficient passers. Trigg stands in the pocket too long and doesn't know the meaning of "throwing the ball away". Terrance is gone so right now Trigg is the starting quarterback unless we get a fantastic recruit and even so, Trigg is likely to start the season anyway barring injury. This team needs a lot of size is what it comes down to, but the win over Fordham got me so excited for next season so I end this with an emphatic GO BISON!!!!!

[RichH2]

Needs are very very difficult to quantify in advance for recruits but we can try.

LU in order of preference

OL

DB

LB


Important this year to get input from each school as to what if any impact last years class had particularly the * players.

[Andy]

A year and a half removed from a chart four or five deep at every OL position, Lafayette is down to basically eleven guys including only seven underclassmen. IMO OL is priority #1. BTW, I'd say our most immediate question is who will replace Padilla at LT--I have hope (for no particular reason other than HS press) for Sloat, but otherwise I have little confidence in the other candidates.

WR would be my second guess at need--both immediate and long term-- with only six on the roster including just one jr to be.

Then I'll go with TE (none in last year's class), QB, RB.

HELP, PLEASE--anyone with a Scout.com subscription. They report a good LB out of Cherry Hill East, Mark Wickware, has committed. He sounds like a PL prospect. Anyone? Thanks.

[401ks]

HELP, PLEASE--anyone with a Scout.com subscription. They report a good LB out of Cherry Hill East, Mark Wickware, has committed. He sounds like a PL prospect. Anyone? Thanks.

I'm not sure exactly what you were looking for, but this is the notice posted on Wickware's Scout.com profile:

Makes His Choice
by Matt Alkire of Scout.com, December 27, 2007 at 10:07pm ET

Mark Wickware, a 6-foot-3, 215-pound linebacker from Cherry Hill-East High School gave his verbal commitment to play for Charleston University in West Virginia on Christmas Day.

[Andy]

I'm not sure exactly what you were looking for, but this is the notice posted on Wickware's Scout.com profile:

Makes His Choice
by Matt Alkire of Scout.com, December 27, 2007 at 10:07pm ET

Mark Wickware, a 6-foot-3, 215-pound linebacker from Cherry Hill-East High School gave his verbal commitment to play for Charleston University in West Virginia on Christmas Day.

Definitely NOT what I was looking for, but best of luck to him. Thanks for the response, 401ks.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Mr. Wickware's choice should be a word of warning to anyone involved with the Patriot League how "free education" is changing the playing field. It's not just D-I athletics - many would rather get a decent free education at a D-II school instead of a partially paid-for education at a Patriot League school.

[carney2]

A year and a half removed from a chart four or five deep at every OL position, Lafayette is down to basically eleven guys including only seven underclassmen. IMO OL is priority #1. BTW, I'd say our most immediate question is who will replace Padilla at LT--I have hope (for no particular reason other than HS press) for Sloat, but otherwise I have little confidence in the other candidates.

WR would be my second guess at need--both immediate and long term-- with only six on the roster including just one jr to be.

Then I'll go with TE (none in last year's class), QB, RB.

I defer to you in all things Lafayette football. More or less for discussion purposes, I offer the following alternate opinions:

1st Priority: OFFENSIVE LINE. Agreed, agreed, and almost agreed. I will say however, that as far as Jesse Padilla is concerned, I will not miss hearing "Holding. Offense. Number 71." Up until the quarterback switch it seemed that Padilla killed about as many drives as Mike DiPaola interceptions. In any event, this pipeline has inexplicably run dry. Oh yeah, anyone under 275 need not apply.

2nd Priority: RUNNING BACK. Unless Tavani (and Heffner) (and Faragalli) is (are) going to change (get real!), we must face the fact that Lafayette football is married to a leather helmet offense until death do them part. Frank believes in a bull-like feature back a'la Joe McCourt and Jonathon Hurt following a herd of elephantine linemen. He needs a running back with some heft to make this a reality. Maurice White at 205 is the biggest he has, and Mo has shown nothing in the way of durability. 225 pound Matt Ferber filled this role in 2007, but is not what is called for here.

3rd Priority: DEFENSIVE LINE. Not on your wish list and I question why. There are a lot of bodies (well over a dozen) on the roster, but they fall into two categories: (so far) ineffective, and puny. The coaches gave a fair amount of playing time to overaged freshman Jeff Katz in 2007, but at 225, you have to fearfully question if this is what it's coming to. Let's just say that we don't need any more 215-235 linemen in this class.

4th Priority: PUNTER. This has been a shaky position for a few years now and with Tom Kondash the only returner with a P next to his name, you have to believe that someone currently dreaming of his high school senior prom is going to be the 2008-2012 punter.

[Lehigh74]

I don't profess to know as much about Lehigh football as ngineer, Rich H or LFN but my take on Lehigh's recruiting needs are as follows:

1. Quarterback (since the 2 freshman are unproven)
2. Defensive back
3. Wide receiver
4. Defensive line

[Franks Tanks]

Mr. Wickware's choice should be a word of warning to anyone involved with the Patriot League how "free education" is changing the playing field. It's not just D-I athletics - many would rather get a decent free education at a D-II school instead of a partially paid-for education at a Patriot League school.

Or it could mean this kid wasnt so good to begin with and wasnt being heavily recruited by the PL, or couldnt even get into a PL school..He chose to go to a sub-par D-II school with 1,000 students that started FB like 4 years ago

[TheValleyRaider]

Yeah, I'm with Frank on this Wickware thing. If he's passing up the PL for D-II (and a mediocre D-II at that, apparently), I have to wonder if he's really on the radar of not only the Patriot League, but other League's we recruit against

As for Colgate's needs, I'm gonna have to use the 2-deep from the HC game to make some judgements. Did not get to see a lot this year, so other opinions on the 'Gate are welcome

Halfback-we always seem to want/have lots of them, plus with Scott's situation being unresolved....

Tight End-the Raiders actually had 2 decent ones to start the season, but they both were hurt. A good TE would have been a big help for our offense, but hopefully Dillingham will come back strong next year

Wide Reciever-Simonds will be good, and Ty Henry could be a nice #2, but if Morgan can't come back, I don't know who else they have on there. Some more options would be nice

Defensive Line-the 2-deep lists them as all Sophs and Seniors, so we'll want some depth there

Kicker-Buck was a nice find in '06 for FGs and PATs, especially given how shaky Stein was with them that year. Stein is back next year, so hopefully he'll show some improvement, or they have a good Freshman on-tap for the Class of 2012

O-Line, Linebackers and Secondary are very young, as is the team overall. Lots of sophomores got significant playing time this season, especially for a Biddle-coached team, and that can't hurt for the next few years.

[carney2]

Thanks for your inputs. I have chosen to limit the "needs" to top 3. Here is my prioritized list at this point. Am entertaining passionate "carney, you dunderhead" pleas for changes, but need to get this locked in and move on. (One month to the first announcements.)

BUCKNELL
1. Offensive line
2. Defensive line
3. Quarterback

COLGATE
1. Defensive line
2. Running back
3. Receiver

FORDHAM
1. Defensive line
2. Offensive line
3. Defensive back

GEORGETOWN
1. “Rated” prospects at any position (at least 6 or 7)
2. Quarterback
3. Offensive line

HOLY CROSS
1. Defensive line
2. Quarterback
3. “Rated” prospects at any position (at least 6 or 7)

LAFAYETTE
1. Offensive line
2. Defensive line
3. Running back

LEHIGH
1. Offensive line
2. Defensive back
3. Linebacker

[bison137]

One other Bucknell comment. I hadn't really thought about the kicking game but the Bison will definitely have to bring in a punter and a place kicker. Both will be seniors and there is no strong backup in sight.

[carney2]

One other Bucknell comment. I hadn't really thought about the kicking game but the Bison will definitely have to bring in a punter and a place kicker. Both will be seniors and there is no strong backup in sight.

If I were to think about it (and I apparently haven't), if a kicker cracks your top 3 on this list, then you are in tremendous shape. Actually, your post has convinced me to rethink my Fordham top 3. They have defensive problems that are more serious than their need for a kicker.

There, I've edited in the change. Kicker is no longer on the Fordham list.

[Fordham]

Disagree on two counts, Montgomery. Dato was a huge, huge weapon for us this year and if the drop off from last year is a big one, it could dramatically change the landscape of games due to not only the obvious field position impact but also touchbacks that prevented any chance at a long KO return for TD. Second, we played a ton of frosh & soph's at DB and have depth and speed there like crazy. What we lacked, in the games where we were passed on, was a push/pressure from the Dline and experience (which these frosh & sophs now have). I'm sure we'll recruit some DB's for no other reason than Masella's a DB coach and loves to put ex-QB's and great athletes out there ... but there's no way imo that it's a top 3 recruiting need.

I firmly believe it should be Kicker but if you're hell bent on claiming that we're 'not in tremendous shape' overall, then LB should be there before DB.

[colorless raider]

I would modify Gate's needs as follows:

1.DL
2.OL
3.RB-pending
4.DB's

[Andy]

More or less for discussion purposes, I offer the following alternate opinions:

3rd Priority: DEFENSIVE LINE. Not on your wish list and I question why. There are a lot of bodies (well over a dozen) on the roster, but they fall into two categories: (so far) ineffective, and puny. The coaches gave a fair amount of playing time to overaged freshman Jeff Katz in 2007, but at 225, you have to fearfully question if this is what it's coming to. Let's just say that we don't need any more 215-235 linemen in this class.


Carney, I can't argue too much with your d-line priority rank, after all we WILL have two senior DEs next year. I guess I just disagree somewhat with your evaluation of the youngsters (unseen as they were last year, maybe I just have more hope) and also with the size factor. With the five sophs to be--Eck, Phillips, Katz, Shula, Gerowski--added to Dell, Whitesell, and Poulson, I feel like we have a pretty good pool of potential DL replacements. (Poulson, of course, a soph starter at DT). As far as size is concerned, if a DE has ability, 6'4 225 is a great start for a freshman and to tell you the truth, not even a bad finishing point IMO. Katz in particular is a moose and a workout freak--although yes listed at 225, he's gotta be closer to 245, IMO. (I believe Hoya's Ono, a stud DE in our league, was listed at 235).

As for DTs, we can bring in agile kids and we can bring in 270 pound kids, but its the agile 270 pounders that are rare as hen's teeth in our league. Remember pls last year's all-PL tackles were a pair of 250 pound kids--Morgan and Rackus. Sprenkle came to us listed at 240, I believe, and filled out, which I believe is the best approach for us.

So, with that being said, would I love to see one or more of our DL recruits signed-kids like Drew Trass, Scott Biel, Doug Alston or Imani Allen--damn right I would!

[carney2]

Carney, I can't argue too much with your d-line priority rank, after all we WILL have two senior DEs next year. I guess I just disagree somewhat with your evaluation of the youngsters (unseen as they were last year, maybe I just have more hope) and also with the size factor. With the five sophs to be--Eck, Phillips, Katz, Shula, Gerowski--added to Dell, Whitesell, and Poulson, I feel like we have a pretty good pool of potential DL replacements. (Poulson, of course, a soph starter at DT). As far as size is concerned, if a DE has ability, 6'4 225 is a great start for a freshman and to tell you the truth, not even a bad finishing point IMO. Katz in particular is a moose and a workout freak--although yes listed at 225, he's gotta be closer to 245, IMO. (I believe Hoya's Ono, a stud DE in our league, was listed at 235).

As for DTs, we can bring in agile kids and we can bring in 270 pound kids, but its the agile 270 pounders that are rare as hen's teeth in our league. Remember pls last year's all-PL tackles were a pair of 250 pound kids--Morgan and Rackus. Sprenkle came to us listed at 240, I believe, and filled out, which I believe is the best approach for us.

So, with that being said, would I love to see one or more of our DL recruits signed-kids like Drew Trass, Mike Biel, Doug Alston or Imani Allen--damn right I would!

In deference to you, Sir Andy, I am going to flip flop my no. 2 (DL) and my no. 3 (RB). Are you saying however, that you would prefer to see DL out of the top 3?

[carney2]

I would modify Gate's needs as follows:

1.DL
2.OL
3.RB-pending
4.DB's

For reasons that I cannot understand, I have had more trouble with Colgate than any of the others. When I line up your post against TheValleyRaider's, I conclude that perhaps I am not the only one with questions. He says

1.RB
2.TE
3.WR
4.DL
but OL perhaps OK.

The only thing that the three of us agree on is RB. Even if Jordan Scott returns for 2008, we are talking about the post-Scott era here.

Also, is QB an issue? Relph only has one more year, so he does not figure into this 2010-2011 discussion. Besides, how does he perform without Scott next to him in that two man set? More to the point, how does he perform in a more "traditional" offense? Freshman Babb was supposed to be the savior, but was pretty far down the depth chart the last I heard - and has even been mentioned for a switch to tailback. This seems a little unsettled.

Let's just say that my top 3 for the 'gate is not cast in stone. I would love some more opinions here.

[DFW HOYA]

GEORGETOWN
1. “Rated” prospects at any position (at least 6 or 7)
2. Quarterback
3. Offensive line


I don't see quarterback as top 3 a priority right now. While Georgetown probably hasn't had an true impact QB in the last 10-15 years, almost all that have followed have done an OK job given the circumstances.

[TheValleyRaider]

For reasons that I cannot understand, I have had more trouble with Colgate than any of the others. When I line up your post against TheValleyRaider's, I conclude that perhaps I am not the only one with questions. He says

1.RB
2.TE
3.WR
4.DL
but OL perhaps OK.

The only thing that the three of us agree on is RB. Even if Jordan Scott returns for 2008, we are talking about the post-Scott era here.

My mistake. Those were not in priority order, merely as I came across them in the lineup. Probably shouldn't even have mentioned the TE as I think we're pretty well set there. DL, OL and WR would all be on my list, although still not sure on the order

Mea culpa on that one :o


Also, is QB an issue? Relph only has one more year, so he does not figure into this 2010-2011 discussion. Besides, how does he perform without Scott next to him in that two man set? More to the point, how does he perform in a more "traditional" offense? Freshman Babb was supposed to be the savior, but was pretty far down the depth chart the last I heard - and has even been mentioned for a switch to tailback. This seems a little unsettled.

I don't think QB is an issue right yet. Relph will be back, obviously, but behind him is rising Soph. Greg Sullivan. Sullivan was highly regarded coming out of Monroe-Woodbury HS, and from the looks of it will step in well when Relph is finished. Babb continues to be a wild card, and with the extra time he could supplant Sullivan on the depth chart before the opener in 2009. As far as I knew, Babb as tailback was message board speculation, but I can't pretend I know much about the program's inner workings

Unfortunately, 'Gate played a lot of close games, so garbage time for the backups wasn't forthcoming (not that Biddle would do that anyway, it doesn't really seem to be his style). The only PT Sullivan got was in the Georgetown game, and that was a couple of handoffs to Scott and Bennett before JJ's injury stopped the game. At the very least, we know he's capable of turning and handing it off to the running back, which is about 65% of our offense anyway

[carney2]

I don't see quarterback as top 3 a priority right now. While Georgetown probably hasn't had an true impact QB in the last 10-15 years, almost all that have followed have done an OK job given the circumstances.

You daMan (or at least one of daMen) when it comes to Hoya football. Any suggestion to replace QB on the list?

[DFW HOYA]

GEORGETOWN
1. “Rated” prospects at any position (at least 6 or 7)
2. Offensive line
3. Defensive line

Why D-line? In 2007, Georgetown is giving up 260 yards a game on the ground, ranked 115th of 116 in both sacks and TFL's, and averaged 242 lbs. across the line.

[Andy]

Mr. Wickware's choice should be a word of warning to anyone involved with the Patriot League how "free education" is changing the playing field. It's not just D-I athletics - many would rather get a decent free education at a D-II school instead of a partially paid-for education at a Patriot League school.

Amen. Here's just another example out of many that we'll read about:

Two-way linemen Austin Kugler of Toms River River North and Mike Murphy of Toms River East said Saturday they have made oral commitments to play football at Monmouth University.

Kugler, a 6-3, 225-pound defensive end/tight end, and Murphy, a 6-4, 254-pound center, defensive end and defensive tackle, were 2007 Asbury Park Press All-Shore first team selections.

Kugler said he was impressed with the scholarships offered by Monmouth and with its plans for a new athletic facility.....

Kugler said he also was recruited by Albany, Bucknell, Lafayette, and Lehigh.

[Ken_Z]

Mr. Wickware's choice should be a word of warning to anyone involved with the Patriot League how "free education" is changing the playing field.

yes it should. and the evidence keeps mounting. Monmouth picked up a player several Pl teams wanted:

"Kugler said he was impressed with the scholarships offered by Monmouth"

"Kugler said he also was recruited by Albany, Bucknell, Lafayette, and Lehigh."


http://www.app.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080106/SPORTS02/80106033/1002/SPORTS

[Ken_Z]

Thanks for your inputs. I have chosen to limit the "needs" to top 3. Here is my prioritized list at this point. Am entertaining passionate "carney, you dunderhead" pleas for changes, but need to get this locked in and move on. (One month to the first announcements.)

BUCKNELL
1. Offensive line
2. Defensive line
3. Quarterback


carney, you dunderhead, the correct list for Bucknell is:
1. Head Coach
2. Offensive Coordinater
3. Defensive Coordinater

seriously, i think we need a quarterback less than we need a new offensive game plan

[Andy]

In deference to you, Sir Andy, I am going to flip flop my no. 2 (DL) and my no. 3 (RB). Are you saying however, that you would prefer to see DL out of the top 3?

Obviously it's very subjective. You're looking a couple years out which will involve kids on the roster about whose ability fans like us really may not have much insight. So, we have to go with numbers. At least at DL we have numbers. At WR we have two seniors to be and five sophs, two of whom were walk-ons--not enough to run a v/jv program. At QB we're talking a jr and three sophs--as you've said, wouldn't be surprised to see one or two of them walk if FT can't convince them it's an open competition. I guess we'd like at least six QBs on the roster, however it's admittedly a tough situation to recruit into. Maybe we wait a year. RB--a senior, three juniors including Ferber and a soph. It's possible one or two of the jr's haven't found their true position yet--Ferber, FB?, DeAndre, flanker?

A complicating factor is that we DO have some excellent talent at those position groups, just not enough numbers--the need is not immediate, just the way Frank likes it. Sooo--and I'd readily defer to your or others' opinions--I'm inclined to put OL, WR, and RB ahead of DL, but not by much. A top-notch pass rushing DE might well see the field before any at these other positions.

Man, this is serious and complicated business.

[Lehigh74]

Carney, I certainly appreciate your efforts inventing the Patsy ratings and continually trying to improve them. However, the more I think about using needs to rank recruits, the more I think it is a bad idea. Here are my reasons:

1. You will never get the fans of each team to agree on what the most crucial needs are.
2. It is unclear whether we should be looking to replace seniors, juniors or sophomores.
3. Sometimes excellent recruits will change position after they get to college. For example, Adam Bergen, arguably the best tight end in the history of the Patriot League, was a quarterback when he entered Lehigh.
4. If a head coach has an opportunity to recruit an outstanding athlete he has to take it, even though the program may already be strong at that position.

[carney2]

Carney, I certainly appreciate your efforts inventing the Patsy ratings and continually trying to improve them. However, the more I think about using needs to rank recruits, the more I think it is a bad idea. Here are my reasons:

1. You will never get the fans of each team to agree on what the most crucial needs are.
2. It is unclear whether we should be looking to replace seniors, juniors or sophomores.
3. Sometimes excellent recruits will change position after they get to college. For example, Adam Bergen, arguably the best tight end in the history of the Patriot League, was a quarterback when he entered Lehigh.
4. If a head coach has an opportunity to recruit an outstanding athlete he has to take it, even though the program may already be strong at that position.

All true - and well stated/thought out for a Lehigh grad xlolx . In the end though, it's all for fun and games, and we all (hopefully) recognize how ridiculously unscientific, subjective and uninformed it is. IF "needs" become a factor in the Patsy Ratings, it will only be one of many items weighted into the final total, and will not be given undue importance.

[carney2]

carney, you dunderhead, the correct list for Bucknell is:
1. Head Coach
2. Offensive Coordinater
3. Defensive Coordinater

seriously, i think we need a quarterback less than we need a new offensive game plan

If I had even suspected that you treated football as anything other than a non-hoops season diversion, and that you were still lurking in the weeds, I would have chosen my words more carefully.

Still, your tongue in cheek remarks make some valid points. I was a big Landis fan for his first few years in Buffalo, but have gone just about 180 from that position. There is no legitimate systemic reason for the Blundering Herd to be buried in the League standings year after year.

[Ken_Z]

Still, your tongue in cheek remarks make some valid points.

accidents will happen :D

anyway, i still happen by from time to time and am happy when i can contribute to your threads. however, i have never been able to get a handle on assessing the quality of football recruits. the only indicator that seems to have any validity is who else was interested and the level of that interest. at the PL level, or at aleast at Bucknell's level, high school awards and accolades appear to have little correlation to success in college. size, speed, etc. are certainly determinants in an individuals success, but simply having size or speed are far from sufficient in and of itself.

[Ken_Z]

the correct list for Bucknell is:
1. Head Coach
2. Offensive Coordinater
3. Defensive Coordinater



in an intersting turn of events, Navy has hired Bucknell's offensive coordinator/ o-line coach to be their offensive line coach. therefore, we will be filling need #2 on my list. the question now is will it matter if we don't replace #1?

[DFW HOYA]

There is no legitimate systemic reason for the Blundering Herd to be buried in the League standings year after year.

Yes there is, and its's the same reason as a popular criticism of Georgetown--its budget does not give them the consistent depth in recruiting afforded other PL schools. (Coincedentally, Georgetown is an even 3-3 in the last six years versus the Bison, but 5-33 against the rest of the league.)

Injuries have really hurt the Bison over the years and that plays right to depth.

[carney2]

The tweaking continues. I tried to utilize everyone's expertise without deterring to individuals. Still, I must confess that some opinions carried undue weight.

BUCKNELL
1. Offensive line
2. Defensive line
3. Quarterback

COLGATE
1. Defensive line
2. Running back
3. Offensive line

FORDHAM
1. Defensive line
2. Offensive line
3. Linebacker

GEORGETOWN
1. “Rated” prospects at any position (at least 6 or 7)
2. Offensive line
3. Defensive line

HOLY CROSS
1. Defensive line
2. Quarterback
3. “Rated” prospects at any position (at least 6 or 7)

LAFAYETTE
1. Offensive line
2. Running back
3. Wide receiver

LEHIGH
1. Offensive line
2. Defensive backs
3. Linebackers

My current thinking is that IF I do the Ratings again and IF "needs" are factored in, it will go something like this:

12 Patsy Points total for "meeting needs," as follows
5 for meeting the number 1 priority
4 for meeting the number 2 priority
3 for meeting the number 3 priority

It will not be "all or nothing," but rather the points will be subjectively assigned by yours truly. It will not, for instance, be sufficient that Team X recruited 6 offensive linemen when Offensive Line was deemed their number 1 need. There will have to be some demonstration of quality and not just bodies.

My old days as a college professor (actually, never a full professor, but what the hey) will come into play. I intend to be a tough grader. You can almost take it to the bank that no one will get all 12 points.

[bison137]

The tweaking continues. I tried to utilize everyone's expertise without deterring to individuals. Still, I must confess that some opinions carried undue weight.




Would one of those opinions be that of KenZ?

[carney2]

Would one of those opinions be that of KenZ?

I had a nightmare once where KenZ carried a chainsaw and wore a hockey mask. He made no sense then and he makes less sense today.

[LBPop]

I don't see quarterback as top 3 a priority right now. While Georgetown probably hasn't had an true impact QB in the last 10-15 years, almost all that have followed have done an OK job given the circumstances.

Typically I prioritize linemen over every other need. Of course when you go 1-10, it's tough to say that anything isn't a "priority." As for the QB question, in my brief four years of watching the Hoyas they always had a clue as to who would compete for the QB position. Maybe the coaches have a clue, but the fans sure don't and in Georgetown's new offense the QB is critical. The only returning player who took any snaps at QB last season is a special athlete who can play several positions. QB is probably the one at which he is least comfortable. I may just drop by for a spring practice or two to see who lines up in that position.

[jdb037]

http://bucknellbison.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/011408aaa.html

Bucknell has filled it's void at Offensive Coordinator by signing former Rhode Island Offensive Coordinator Harold Nichols. According to KenZ, and most Bison fans, this was a top priority. He did a fantastic job with surprise surprise, the run game, at URI. Plenty of experience, lets hope this guy works out in Lewisburg. Any URI fans out there want to give us some insight on how this guy runs his offense?