FCS vs. FBS

[ncman071]

i know this topic has been beaten like a dead horse, but i'm just wondering how the majority of you would feel if teams like App State decided or were able to go IA sometime after the moratorium. I have really mixed feelings. i know that a lot of people feel like App and other IAA teams would fall into obscurity on the IA level but honestly it depends on how you look at obscurity. we play on a level where media is non existant sometimes even through the quarterfinals of the playoffs. Our national title games that are televised usually involve tons of commentary about anything but the game, not to mention all of the IA transfer comments. I just want the chance for programs like ASU to be able to play the best teams year in and year out.
However, i absolutely love the pureness of IAA football. The playoffs are absolutely awesome. Personally, i get a lot more excited about watching a true national championship and other playoff games than half of the bowl games in which at least some of the teams end up with losing records after their bowl game is played (6-7). Sometimes it seems like a lot of the bowl games are rewards for teams that simply barely had winning records and didnt suck that bad. In the playoffs at the very least you better have 7 wins but really 8 is the magic number for most teams.
Anyway i just felt the need to rant this evening and i hope everyone on this board has a blessed Christmas and God Bless everybody.
Oh, one more thing. another thing that pisses me off about IA is that teams can go freaking undefeated and not even get mentioned as a freakin candidate to play for a national championship. My brother and i were talking about this the other day. Hawaii goes undefeated and has no shot at a championship. and yes i know their strength of schedule simply wasn't there. But they tried to schedule highly ranked teams and those same teams WOULD NOT PLAY THEM. How is this fair in BCS? its not fair. This is just another reason why our playoff system is great. You will never see a #6 team and a #13 team play for a national title in BCS because those teams wont ever get a chance to prove themselves unlike our playoff system where things like this happen all the time.

[FCS Preview]

If they want to move, go ahead. But I would feel sorry for their fans who would never again be able to have the excitement of winning a national championship.

[Hoyadestroya85]

exactly.. what conference would they join... The Sun Belt?

[DFW HOYA]

exactly.. what conference would they join... The Sun Belt?

The Belt is filling up fast. WKU and South Alabama are next in line.

[D1scout]

App State, Delaware, and a few other FCS teams do pretty well financially. It shows in their facilities and recruiting of quality athletes. But, most of the rest of the FCS Top Ten or Fifteen may do better at the FBS level of competition. It seems that most fans I've discussed these team with don't really appreciate the FCS programs. They tend to think more highly of such traditional druges and conference bottom feeders such as Duke, Kent State, Indiana, Mississippi, etc. So, upgrading facitities and giving additional scholarships, up to 85 instead of the 63, may bring a greater return financially than remaining in the hardly noticed FCS. It appears that quite a few school seem to be heading in this direction.

[JayJ79]

It seems like almost all teams that move from I-AA/FCS to I-A/FBS end up in the relative obscurity of I-A "mid majors", which really don't get THAT much national attention anyway. I suppose that sometimes going FBS brings in more money, but it also requires spending more money.

I definitely do NOT want to see Northern Iowa "move up", because I just don't think it would be beneficial. I-AA/FCS is a good fit for the program, at least how it is now. As for ASU, I am not familiar enough with their situation to judge.

[Blueandwhitefightfight]

I think it would bring a lot more money in, be a great recruitment tool for the school, and add more widespread perceived (as in to people not here on this board) prestige to the the school.


And with all the people lobbying for a playoff system and the BCS ending in 2011, the FCS is about to slip further into the realm of irrelevancy.


GSU is about to move up, I say lets join forces and keep a rivalry going. Come with us.

[ncman071]

i'll tell you the truth if App does move up, it would be great if we could get a few more IAA schools such as GSU to go with us and form a new conference. Sunbelt doesnt fit. unlike many people on this board, i dont have a problem with the sunbelt, but it doesnt make sense logistically. conference usa would work well, but they would have to lose somebody according to the way their conference is set up. By the way, you wont see GSU going up anytime soon. The whole feasability study is just used to shut up a few lobbists. App did the same thing several years ago using essentially the same standpoint GSU is now. but you never know.

[APPALACHIANstate]

You guys are not thinking this through. IF Appalachian moves up, or anyother FCS team, it will take a lot of time. I am talking decades before they can get anywhere close to a top team.

[TheValleyRaider]

To answer the question, if ASU (or anyone else for that matter) leaves, will I be upset? Well, I don't like it when schools leave FCS, be it through moving to FBS or dropping football. On the other hand, I do respect that Appalachian State (or any other school) has to do what's right for them. I realize some people don't think very highly of conferences like the Sun Belt (although really, I agree with them), but I personally don't see the need to just beat up on somebody for making the move they think is best.

I do have a problem (and I've said this in other threads) with fans who seem to think just going FBS is somehow going to open up magical doors that otherwise required special circumstances to open. The record for teams that have moved to FBS is a mixed bag, with some success stories and plenty of schools essentially stuck in neutral, if that. In my mind, you can look at a school like UConn or Marshall and just as easily consider them exceptions to the rule. For Boise State winning the Fiesta Bowl, you have Nevada getting blown out in the New Mexico Bowl. I mean really, the New Mexico Bowl?

The real difficulty is that the road upwards is frought with potholes, some unforseen, but many that we can be aware of. Is there really a conference option for schools like App. St and Geo. So.? Yeah, Marshall's now C-USA, but they moved up 10 years ago, and got somewhat lucky. Too much of a crapshoot, in my opinion, to stake it all on a move up. A lot more shaking would have to go on for someone like App. St to have both the room and ability to make a real place for themselves at the FBS level xpeacex xtwocentsx

[JayJ79]

And with all the people lobbying for a playoff system and the BCS ending in 2011, the FCS is about to slip further into the realm of irrelevancy.

Irrelevancy? xsmhx Get real.

Sure, many casual fans consider FCS teams to not be very relevant. But then, most of them have the same opinion about FBS teams that aren't in a major (BCS) conference as well. And they hold the same opinion, regardless of whether or not the FBS holds a playoff or not. If the FBS ever goes to a playoff system (which I would put money down that they never ever would. Closest they will get would be a "plus one", where the winners of the "top 2" bowl games face off), it wouldn't affect the "relevance" of FCS football. Though it would probably lead to another name change, probably back to I-A and I-AA.

[JohnStOnge]

I've always hated to see I-AA and now FCS programs go I-A/FBS. I think it dilutes both subdivisions. I also think its far more likely than not that an FCS power that goes FBS will not, over time, be a FBS program of even average quality.

It weakens FCS because most of the players at former former I-AA/FCS schools are, I think, players that would otherwise be in FCS.

I think the Southland, for instance, has been weakened by having programs like Louisiana Tech, Northeast Louisiana (now ULM), Arkansas State, North Texas and Troy State make the move. I think the overwhelming majority of players at those schools would have been I-AA/FCS recruits if they didn't have schools like that to go to. And I think those schools have a recruiting advantage over FCS schools in terms of getting the better FCS caliber recruits because they're able to tell those recruits they can be "big time" football players. It's an illusion, but I think it works.

I think the only circumstance in which a former FCS has a chance to sustain a quality FBS program is one in which that program gets into a BCS league like South Florida and UConn did. I think a program like Boise State may make headlines at times by playing an extremely weak schedule and knocking off a few "Giants," but it is destined to be a flash in the pan. Marshall had its flash during the late 90s and early 2000s. Boise State is having its flash now.

And, really, the perception of Boise State's program quality, I think, probably exceeds the reality (same with Marshall before). The Broncos have a horrendous record against BCS league schools and I think it's obvious that, if they'd consistently played I-A/FBS schedules of even average strength, winning seasons would've been rare for them.

They did do get a lot of publicity, so I can see looking at FBS as a good thing if you know your program will achieve what Boise State achieved. But it's not likely that even that is going to happen.

So it's very likely your program will go from being a real national contender in one world to being a wannabe, weaker than average program in another.

[Eight Legger]

It won't surprise anyone that these moves are made for the same reason that most other business moves are made -- money. The reality is that most schools who make the jump feel they can make more $$ in FBS and raise the profile of their institutions at the same time by competing at the highest level. The tradeoff for those who were at the top of FCS is that the whole format changes.

Personally, I would not be excited if UR were in FBS and had qualified to play Nevada in the New Mexico Bowl this year, for example. Would I go to the game? Probably not. Would anyone other than our fans and Nevada's fans give a damn about it? No. If we won, would it lead to anything else? No. The season would be over. Kind of a killjoy if you ask me.

The move makes the most sense for large schools who can recruit to successfully compete at the next level. But even then I think it's a dropoff in terms of excitement.

[FCS Preview]

I think most schools at our level would get more publicity in beating a high-profile FBS school, OR investing the money in their MBB team and making some noise during March Madness than in jumping to FBS.

More people know George Mason these days for their Final Four run than ever would if they had an FBS FB team that won the New Mexico bowl.

20 years later people still remember Richmond beating Indiana in the tournament.

20 years from now people will still remember App State over Michigan.

20 years from now nobody will know or care who won the 2007 New Mexico bowl.

[hapapp]

I think most schools at our level would get more publicity in beating a high-profile FBS school, OR investing the money in their MBB team and making some noise during March Madness than in jumping to FBS.

More people know George Mason these days for their Final Four run than ever would if they had an FBS FB team that won the New Mexico bowl.

20 years later people still remember Richmond beating Indiana in the tournament.

20 years from now people will still remember App State over Michigan.

20 years from now nobody will know or care who won the 2007 New Mexico bowl.


I find myself somewhat ambivalent about ASU making a move towards the FBS. I see the pros and cons of both sides as having some relevance. However, the points you made above are certainly valid ones. If we were an FBS school at the moment we wouldn't have reaped the benefits of 3-peating and the win over Michigan. I'm not sure there is anything we could have accomplished at the next level that would have generated as much positive press for the university.

[JohnStOnge]

It won't surprise anyone that these moves are made for the same reason that most other business moves are made -- money. The reality is that most schools who make the jump feel they can make more $$ in FBS and raise the profile of their institutions at the same time by competing at the highest level.

The higher profile thing is supportable. You can see that. But, at least as of the last time I really looked at it, the money thing is not. Not that it's not possible. Boise State's probably done better financially, for instance. But I think the odds are better than even that a school that goes FBS will do worse in terms of financial bottom line. It'll get more revenue but odds are the increase in revenue won't be enough to cancel out the increase in expenses. I think it increases the potential but also increases the risk of loss but that, on balance, the odds of losing more money is the more likely scenario.

Maybe that's something I can look at again during the off season. Some numbers crunching. Problem is that the only national source I know of is the US DOE gender equity reporting. That had some problems to begin with. And after the NCAA used it to argue that the top I-AA programs had an average bottom line of almost a million dollars (revenues minus expenses) better than the average for the bottom I-A programs, a bunch of programs' revenues minus expenses numbers started miraculously balancing out to exactly zero.

I know it's shocking, but I think there may be some numbers fudging going on.

[Monarch History]

I know it's shocking, but I think there may be some numbers fudging going on.Do you think?

[bench]

The only scenario that Appalachian would have to jump at would be one where the SEC or ACC decided to drop a member and invited App to join. For example, if Duke chose to just forget about this whole football nonsense and the ACC asked ASU to become a football-only member, they would have to make that move. That sort of sweetheart deal would instantly give them legitimacy on the national stage they might never get in a second-tier/third-world conference.

The football program is successful and profitable exactly where it's at. They would have to receive an offer they couldn't refuse to justify making the risky transition to FBS.

[ucdtim17]

There's isn't really any rational way to argue Boise didn't make the right call to move up. Citing their record vs BCS teams doesn't really matter, as they should have a losing record vs. those schools. After what they did last year, there's not really any question about them. They are a clear shining beacon of how to do it right

[FCS Preview]

There's isn't really any rational way to argue Boise didn't make the right call to move up. Citing their record vs BCS teams doesn't really matter, as they should have a losing record vs. those schools. After what they did last year, there's not really any question about them. They are a clear shining beacon of how to do it right

The question is, can they sustain it?
Marshall made a big splash when they moved up; now they are toiling in semi-obscurity. The Herd went (3-9) this year, following (5-7), (4-7) and (6-6) records in 2006, 2005 and 2004.

They've appeared in 7 Bowl games since moving up, going (5-2), though even in their best seasons -- 1998 and 1999 -- they couldn't do any better than the Motor City Bowl.

[DFW HOYA]

As a whole, if a school can afford to jump to I-A, its fan base seems to approve.

If toiling in I-A is such a burden compared to the lure of playoff football, why is it that not a single school in the last 20 years has moved back to I-AA?

[FCS Preview]

As a whole, if a school can afford to jump to I-A, its fan base seems to approve.

If toiling in I-A is such a burden compared to the lure of playoff football, why is it that not a single school in the last 20 years has moved back to I-AA?

Maybe not (though IIRC, FAMU started the move then moved back) but how many have found true success? From: http://www.collegesportingnews.net/Sites/IAA/article.asp?articleid=81101

Former I-AA schools, first year in I-A, number of conference or divisional titles or co-championships, number of bowl appearances
(Since 1987, through 2005 season)

Akron, 1987, 1 MAC title, 1 bowl appearance
Alabama-Birmingham 1996, 1 bowl appearance
Arkansas State 1992, 1 Sun Belt title, 1 bowl appearance
Boise State 1996, 2 Big West and 4 WAC titles, 6 bowl appearances
Buffalo 1999, has never finished with more than 3 wins in I-A
Central Florida 1996, one CUSA divisional title, one bowl appearance
Connecticut 2000, one bowl appearance
Florida Atlantic, 2004
Florida International, 2004
Idaho 1997, one Big West title, one bowl appearance
Louisiana Monroe 1994, one Sun Belt title
Louisiana Tech 1989, 1 WAC title, 2 bowl appearances
Marshall 1997, 5 MAC titles, 7 bowl appearances
Middle Tennessee State 1999, one Sun Belt title
Nevada 1992, 5 Big West and 1 WAC title, 4 bowl appearances
North Texas 1995, 4 Sun Belt titles, 4 bowl appearances
South Florida 2001, one bowl appearance
Troy 2002, one bowl appearance


Not exactly a stellar mark of success. Now, USF and UConn did well this year, and Boise State, Nevada and Marshall have done well for stretches, but MTSU?...Troy?...Buffalo?

[JohnStOnge]

As a whole, if a school can afford to jump to I-A, its fan base seems to approve.

If toiling in I-A is such a burden compared to the lure of playoff football, why is it that not a single school in the last 20 years has moved back to I-AA?

I have no explanation other than ego. Like Louisiana Monroe (formerly Northeast Louisiana). It's a program that won a national championship in I-AA and I can remember times when it, as a I-AA program, had more players drafted than LSU did. It went 9-3 in its last year as a I-AA in 1993 and hasn't had a winning season or, of course, a post season appearance since.

Yet it's clear that its fans are absolutely determined to be in FBS. To me, it's delusional for them to believe their school can ever really compete in that subdivision, but that's where they want to be.

I really don't think it's based on rational decision making when it comes to what such fans want.

[JohnStOnge]

As a whole, if a school can afford to jump to I-A, its fan base seems to approve.

If toiling in I-A is such a burden compared to the lure of playoff football, why is it that not a single school in the last 20 years has moved back to I-AA?


Actually, I just thought of another possible factor. When schools move to I-A/FBS, they have to invest a lot. They have to upgrade their facilities, increase their stadium sizes, ect. That makes it real tough, I think, to reverse course. You've spent a whole lot of money to make the move.

[hapapp]

You've hit on it. A big reason for moving is ego. Most universities after making the move aren't likely to admit they made a mistake and drop back. Not likely that their fans would approve of the decision to go back either.

Despite the recent success that outshines what the other UNC system schools have accomplished, many ASU alums still feel like they take a back seat to their BCS/FBS cousins in North Carolina. Their other main argument is the desire to upgrade the regular season competition with the likes of Wake, ECU, and some of the other D1A schools that once graced our schedule. If the result would, in fact, bring those folks back it might be worth considering.

Of course, the big stumbling blocks would be the resources needed to fund such an endeavor and a conference home that could rightly be seen as a step up rather than a lateral move.

[ucdtim17]

The question is, can they sustain it?
Marshall made a big splash when they moved up; now they are toiling in semi-obscurity. The Herd went (3-9) this year, following (5-7), (4-7) and (6-6) records in 2006, 2005 and 2004.

They've appeared in 7 Bowl games since moving up, going (5-2), though even in their best seasons -- 1998 and 1999 -- they couldn't do any better than the Motor City Bowl.

They're been up for 10-15 years now and went 10-3 this year in a down year. Marshall you may be able to question, but not Boise

[FCS Preview]

I only asked if they could sustain it....And they're still in a lousy conference with no chance to win a MNC.

[CamelCityAppFan]

Despite the recent success that outshines what the other UNC system schools have accomplished, many ASU alums still feel like they take a back seat to their BCS/FBS cousins in North Carolina.

My observation is that this was the case before this year. 1 NC was a fluke. The 2nd NC got their attention. Beating UM and becoming the 1st 3peat National Champ has cemented ASU's standing as the best college football program in the UNC system (or the state, for that matter).

I've talked with many, many die-hard ACC types who have finally given in and admitted as such. Most ACC fans in the state just kill time during the football season until basketball starts up.

I think more success at the I-AA level for ASU could have the effect of slowing down the drumbeat to leap to I-A. As ASU gets more props, that back-seat mentality melts away. The alums who are enjoying playoffs and on-the-field national championships might not get too excited about the occasional trip to the Orange Bowl, and the more likely post season destination of the Chico's Bail Bonds Bowl.

xtwocentsx

[yosef1969]

Maybe not (though IIRC, FAMU started the move then moved back) but how many have found true success? From: http://www.collegesportingnews.net/Sites/IAA/article.asp?articleid=81101

Former I-AA schools, first year in I-A, number of conference or divisional titles or co-championships, number of bowl appearances
(Since 1987, through 2005 season)

Akron, 1987, 1 MAC title, 1 bowl appearance
Alabama-Birmingham 1996, 1 bowl appearance
Arkansas State 1992, 1 Sun Belt title, 1 bowl appearance
Boise State 1996, 2 Big West and 4 WAC titles, 6 bowl appearances
Buffalo 1999, has never finished with more than 3 wins in I-A
Central Florida 1996, one CUSA divisional title, one bowl appearance
Connecticut 2000, one bowl appearance
Florida Atlantic, 2004
Florida International, 2004
Idaho 1997, one Big West title, one bowl appearance
Louisiana Monroe 1994, one Sun Belt title
Louisiana Tech 1989, 1 WAC title, 2 bowl appearances
Marshall 1997, 5 MAC titles, 7 bowl appearances
Middle Tennessee State 1999, one Sun Belt title
Nevada 1992, 5 Big West and 1 WAC title, 4 bowl appearances
North Texas 1995, 4 Sun Belt titles, 4 bowl appearances
South Florida 2001, one bowl appearance
Troy 2002, one bowl appearance


Not exactly a stellar mark of success. Now, USF and UConn did well this year, and Boise State, Nevada and Marshall have done well for stretches, but MTSU?...Troy?...Buffalo?

Sustained Success? How many FCS schools can claim this? What is interpreted as success? Playoffs? Conference Championships?

It is portrayed as if "success" is a foregone conclusion at the FCS level. ASU has had obvious recent successes but they've had lean years too. Will they continue to have successful years??? There are no guarantees.

Weakening schedules and the exodus of remaining comparable programs will nessecitate an eventual move for teams such as App State and GSU.

I would be just as happy with ASU playing a meaningful regular season schedule against traditional regional rivals with an opportunity to win a conference championship and play in a "meaningless" bowl as I would be with them playing a diluted schedule with a chance at the playoffs.

I'm not unhappy with current situation but I still think it's a matter of when not if. The conference situation will realign itself in another 5 to 10 years, just the nature of the beast. For example there has already been talk of Conference USA breaking off into two separate leagues due to travel considerations. Point is while conference affiliation is an important consideration the issue is being ready to move when the opportunity is presented because it will come.

[FCS Preview]

Sustained Success? How many FCS schools can claim this? What is interpreted as success? Playoffs? Conference Championships?

In FBS, it would be winning records and bowl appearances.
Again, through the 2005 season:

Akron, 18 seasons, 1 bowl game
Alabama-Birmingham, 10 seasons, 1 bowl game
Arkansas State, 14 years, 1 bowl game
Buffalo, 7 years, NO bowl games
Central Florida, 10 seasons, 1 bowl game
Idaho, 9 seasons, 1 bowl game
Louisiana Monroe 12 seasons, NO bowl games
Louisiana Tech, 17 seasons, 2 bowl appearances
Middle Tennessee State, 7 years, NO bowl games
Nevada, 14 seasons, 4 bowl appearances
North Texas, 11 seasons 4 bowl appearances

So like I said, for those schools above, not a great record of success following the jump. Some did OK, like Marshall, Boise State...but for the most part, it's been like Akron, Buffalo, and Louisiana-Monroe.

[yosef1969]

In FBS, it would be winning records and bowl appearances.
Again, through the 2005 season:

Akron, 18 seasons, 1 bowl game
Alabama-Birmingham, 10 seasons, 1 bowl game
Arkansas State, 14 years, 1 bowl game
Buffalo, 7 years, NO bowl games
Central Florida, 10 seasons, 1 bowl game
Idaho, 9 seasons, 1 bowl game
Louisiana Monroe 12 seasons, NO bowl games
Louisiana Tech, 17 seasons, 2 bowl appearances
Middle Tennessee State, 7 years, NO bowl games
Nevada, 14 seasons, 4 bowl appearances
North Texas, 11 seasons 4 bowl appearances

So like I said, for those schools above, not a great record of success following the jump. Some did OK, like Marshall, Boise State...but for the most part, it's been like Akron, Buffalo, and Louisiana-Monroe.

I understand and your point is valid however my point is that mediocrity can rear it's ugly head at any level.

Marshall has had success and failure at the FBS level. Same with Boise State. See Nevada and North Texas: Many FCS schools would like to have 4 playoff appearances in 11or 14 years (including transitional periods I assume). Even teams such as Akron and Troy have had at least one or two good seasons.

GSU had a 3-8 record last season, failed to make the playoffs again this year. William & Mary has been struggling in recent years, Western Carolina and UTC can't seem to get their programs moving in the right direction. etc etc etc.
Let's be fair, just as many FCS programs are perrenial doormats as well...

[FCS Preview]

I understand and your point is valid however my point is that mediocrity can rear it's ugly head at any level.

Let's be fair, just as many FCS programs are perrenial doormats as well...

Yes, it can...but in FCS, a decent program can have a lousy streak and then, thanks to the playoffs, be in the middle of the championship hunt in one year. (Especially if they are in one of the 8 conferences with a playoff AQ).

That's only possible in FBS if you're in a BCS conference. How many FCS programs moved up into BCS conferences? Two?

Most schools -- even the successful FCS ones -- move up into lower-level FBS conferences to mediocre results. Everyone likes to look at the success stories and think they will be just like them. But they ignore the overwhelmingly bad results of most of the schools that went before them.

To any school that wants to move up, I say go ahead. Good luck. But be realistic in what lies ahead. Losing seasons, weak conferences, no chance at the MNC.

[yosef1969]

Yes, it can...but in FCS, a decent program can have a lousy streak and then, thanks to the playoffs, be in the middle of the championship hunt in one year. (Especially if they are in one of the 8 conferences with a playoff AQ).

That's only possible in FBS if you're in a BCS conference. How many FCS programs moved up into BCS conferences? Two?

Most schools -- even the successful FCS ones -- move up into lower-level FBS conferences to mediocre results. Everyone likes to look at the success stories and think they will be just like them. But they ignore the overwhelmingly bad results of most of the schools that went before them.

To any school that wants to move up, I say go ahead. Good luck. But be realistic in what lies ahead. Losing seasons, weak conferences, no chance at the MNC.

I'm not completely convinced that the right choice for ASU is to move to FBS. I do think it's a choice each program must make for itself and there are many considerations.

Some have made the right decision, others have not.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the "success" portion of the discussion. Again, IMO you have to frame your position in what is your perception of success. It seems as if you're basing your idea of potential success on the BCS and a chance to play for the Nat'l Championship.

I, nor dare I say any other realistic fan of a program looking to make the move to FBS, has any notion that their team would ever play for the MNC as you put it. Just as I had no notion that ASU would ever beat Michigan!

Realistically losing seasons, weak conferences, no realistic chance at the NC are just as possible in FCS. (just ask fans of Big South, NEC and Pioneer teams!) There are examples of perennial losers and sustained successes in both divisions.

Florida Atlantic came from perennial loser to 8-5 record and a bowl win. "Rags to Riches" stories can happen in FBS too. (Depending on what your expectations and ideas of success are).

I think the reality is that folks arguing for a move to FBS are less likely to ignore the pitfalls than the opponents of the move are likely to over exaggerate the negatives.

The point made over and over again that is often brushed aside that can't be ignored is that no one is moving back to FCS. All of the percieved negative that can be dished out has not led to single exit...

I am not enamored with the thought of ASU becoming MTSU or Troy but the truth of the matter is it's not as bad as is portrayed on this board and even for the negatives you mention there are just as many positives you don't.

[fjblair]

Irrelevancy? xsmhx Get real.

Sure, many casual fans consider FCS teams to not be very relevant. But then, most of them have the same opinion about FBS teams that aren't in a major (BCS) conference as well. And they hold the same opinion, regardless of whether or not the FBS holds a playoff or not. If the FBS ever goes to a playoff system (which I would put money down that they never ever would. Closest they will get would be a "plus one", where the winners of the "top 2" bowl games face off), it wouldn't affect the "relevance" of FCS football. Though it would probably lead to another name change, probably back to I-A and I-AA.


Exactly. And the great majority of teams in the BCS are also irrelevant. There are like 10 teams that have national relevance in football. And they are the only programs that have a shot at a no.1 ranking(for what that is worth).

[Saint3333]

In FBS, it would be winning records and bowl appearances.


So like I said, for those schools above, not a great record of success following the jump. Some did OK, like Marshall, Boise State...but for the most part, it's been like Akron, Buffalo, and Louisiana-Monroe.

Boise State did just OKxconfusedx

Your hypocrisy knows no bounds. - Doc Holiday

[hapapp]

I'm not completely convinced that the right choice for ASU is to move to FBS. I do think it's a choice each program must make for itself and there are many considerations.

Some have made the right decision, others have not.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the "success" portion of the discussion. Again, IMO you have to frame your position in what is your perception of success. It seems as if you're basing your idea of potential success on the BCS and a chance to play for the Nat'l Championship.

I, nor dare I say any other realistic fan of a program looking to make the move to FBS, has any notion that their team would ever play for the MNC as you put it. Just as I had no notion that ASU would ever beat Michigan!

Realistically losing seasons, weak conferences, no realistic chance at the NC are just as possible in FCS. (just ask fans of Big South, NEC and Pioneer teams!) There are examples of perennial losers and sustained successes in both divisions.

Florida Atlantic came from perennial loser to 8-5 record and a bowl win. "Rags to Riches" stories can happen in FBS too. (Depending on what your expectations and ideas of success are).

I think the reality is that folks arguing for a move to FBS are less likely to ignore the pitfalls than the opponents of the move are likely to over exaggerate the negatives.

The point made over and over again that is often brushed aside that can't be ignored is that no one is moving back to FCS. All of the percieved negative that can be dished out has not led to single exit...

I am not enamored with the thought of ASU becoming MTSU or Troy but the truth of the matter is it's not as bad as is portrayed on this board and even for the negatives you mention there are just as many positives you don't.

I think you summed it up nicely. I just don't see this issue as an either/or proposition. There are good reasons to move up, just as there are equally good reasons to stay FCS. I really think a lot depends on the changing landscape. If schools like JMU, GSU, and perhaps at some point UNCC, are serious about moving, ASU needs to be in a position to move as well. We may forgo any more NCs but we would playing in the company of like minded institutions with similar missions.

[CID1990]

I like pie.

[FCS Preview]

Exactly. And the great majority of teams in the BCS are also irrelevant. There are like 10 teams that have national relevance in football. And they are the only programs that have a shot at a no.1 ranking(for what that is worth).

I think there were more than 10 teams ranked 1/2 this year alone.

Teams off the top of my head with 'national relevance', either now or in the recent past -- Florida, Florida State, Miami. Virginia Tech. Kansas. Missouri. Oklahoma. Nebraska. Penn State, Ohio State, Michigan. Oops that's already 11 and I haven't even mentioned USC, LSU, Notre Dame...

[ucdtim17]

Some did OK, like Marshall, Boise State...but for the most part, it's been like Akron, Buffalo, and Louisiana-Monroe.


Give it up with Boise. They have not done "OK"

[FCS Preview]

Give it up with Boise. They have not done "OK"

You're right. They're the greatest team in the history of football that has ever moved from FCS to FBS.

They deserve a permanent spot in the BCS games despite the fact that they are just (1-3) in their last four bowl games, and have won only two bowl games not played in their home stadium.

[ucdtim17]

You're right. They're the greatest team in the history of football that has ever moved from FCS to FBS.

They deserve a permanent spot in the BCS games despite the fact that they are just (1-3) in their last four bowl games, and have won only two bowl games not played in their home stadium.

Your sarcasm does not help your argument. If you're going to hate every team for ever moving up for whatever reason, then just say it and we can avoid trying to have a rational discussion with you. Winning a Fiesta Bowl after just 15 years in I-A is more than most schools (and almost all non-BCS schools) accomplish in 50 years. It's ridiculous to suggest that they've just done "OK"

[FCS Preview]

Your sarcasm does not help your argument. If you're going to hate every team for ever moving up for whatever reason, then just say it and we can avoid trying to have a rational discussion with you. Winning a Fiesta Bowl after just 15 years in I-A is more than most schools (and almost all non-BCS schools) accomplish in 50 years. It's ridiculous to suggest that they've just done "OK"
I've said it before; I'll say it again. If a team wants to go to FBS, fine. Let them. Most years, Boise State's success has netted them a berth in the Humanitarian Bowl and if that's what they want, good for them.

But even in their best season, they had no chance of the MNC.

[JohnStOnge]

I checked to get an idea of what the gender equity reports say. The query page is at http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/main.asp . I found at, at least by the latest reports the schools submited, former I-AAs that are now FBS had a smaller average athletic department bottom line (+$186,439.76) than current public FCS schools that show up in the "Aggregated Data" query (+$272,273.30). By bottom line I mean revenues minus expenses.

I entered the 17 former I-AAs I identified going through the FBS conference lists individually into a database to calculate the revenues, expenses, and differences then took the average. I used the "Aggregate Data" query to get the total revenues and total expenses for public FCS schools then divided by the number of schools (71) considered.
I chose "public" because all the former I-AAs are public.

Not all of the current FCS publics show up on the list given by the "Aggregate Data" query. I know that because I noticed that McNeese isn't on it. I'm trying to decide if I should go through and do all the public FCS schools individually. Or maybe all the publics in the 8 auto bid conferences. I think the latter might provide the best comparison of former I-AAs to current FCS programs similar in nature to what the former I-AAs were.

FYI, if you just do the "Aggregate Data" query for all current FCS you get a list of 118 schools and the average bottom line is $311,917.94. And if you exclude the two BCS former I-AAs from the FBS former I-AA group the average bottom line doesn't change much and actually rises slightly to $187,220.33.

The gender equity reports have problems. But if it were really true that going from FCS to FBS is likely to result in a better financial bottom line I think that the overall averages referenced would provide at least some suggestion of that reality. Instead, they suggest the opposite.

[JohnStOnge]

Your sarcasm does not help your argument. If you're going to hate every team for ever moving up for whatever reason, then just say it and we can avoid trying to have a rational discussion with you. Winning a Fiesta Bowl after just 15 years in I-A is more than most schools (and almost all non-BCS schools) accomplish in 50 years. It's ridiculous to suggest that they've just done "OK"

If you're talking about Boise State, the Broncos have done better than "OK" in terms of overall record and perception. If you're talking about the typical caliber of teams the program has had in the context of I-A and now FBS, I think the perception has exceeded the reality. I think that if you look at it in those terms the program has been average at best and probably a little below that.

As I've written before, I think the best measure of where a program really is is how it's done against teams from the 6 conferences that make up the mainstream of the subdivision. That's the BCS leagues. And Boise State, since the BCS started in 1998, is 4 - 12 against such teams. Also, 2 of those wins were during the 2006-2007 storybook season. Otherwise, they are 2 - 12. Even with the benefit of the 2 - 0 storybook season, they are now 2 - 4 against BCS leaguers over the past three years.

The numbers tell us two things. First, they tell us that Boise State has played easy schedules. They have only played a total of 16 games against the mainstream of the subivision over 10 years. Second, it tells us that when they've played such teams they've lost a whole lot more often than they've won.

I don't think Boise State or any other former I-AA other than maybe South Florida has shown that its teams could win more than they lose during some reasonable proportion of seasons against schedules of even average difficulty in the context of the FBS.

So, yes, Boise State's gotten a lot of wins against very weak schedules and gotten a lot of publicity largely because one of its rare wins against the mainstream was high profile. But, in terms of actual on the field caliber of the program as compared to all of the other programs in the subdivision, I think characterizing it as just "OK" is pretty reasonable.

[UCAMonkey]

Your sarcasm does not help your argument. If you're going to hate every team for ever moving up for whatever reason, then just say it and we can avoid trying to have a rational discussion with you. Winning a Fiesta Bowl after just 15 years in I-A is more than most schools (and almost all non-BCS schools) accomplish in 50 years. It's ridiculous to suggest that they've just done "OK"


The money

It's a well-kept secret that amid all the festivity, bowl games rarely pay for cost of the schools attending them. According to a recent Orange County Register article, Florida and Ohio State each finished more than $600,000 in the red last year from travel expenses to the national title game.

[UAalum72]

Expenses detailed in this story about how East Carolina would lose about $70K for a bowl in Hawai'i

http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/story/835800.html

[DFW HOYA]

But even in their best season, they had no chance of the MNC.

And a lot of schools have no chance for the playoff title, either. I think Boise is right where they want to be.

[ucdtim17]

If you're talking about Boise State, the Broncos have done better than "OK" in terms of overall record and perception. If you're talking about the typical caliber of teams the program has had in the context of I-A and now FBS, I think the perception has exceeded the reality. I think that if you look at it in those terms the program has been average at best and probably a little below that.

As I've written before, I think the best measure of where a program really is is how it's done against teams from the 6 conferences that make up the mainstream of the subdivision. That's the BCS leagues. And Boise State, since the BCS started in 1998, is 4 - 12 against such teams. Also, 2 of those wins were during the 2006-2007 storybook season. Otherwise, they are 2 - 12. Even with the benefit of the 2 - 0 storybook season, they are now 2 - 4 against BCS leaguers over the past three years.

The numbers tell us two things. First, they tell us that Boise State has played easy schedules. They have only played a total of 16 games against the mainstream of the subivision over 10 years. Second, it tells us that when they've played such teams they've lost a whole lot more often than they've won.

I don't think Boise State or any other former I-AA other than maybe South Florida has shown that its teams could win more than they lose during some reasonable proportion of seasons against schedules of even average difficulty in the context of the FBS.

So, yes, Boise State's gotten a lot of wins against very weak schedules and gotten a lot of publicity largely because one of its rare wins against the mainstream was high profile. But, in terms of actual on the field caliber of the program as compared to all of the other programs in the subdivision, I think characterizing it as just "OK" is pretty reasonable.

Hypothesizing how they might do in a BCS conference might be fun, but it's still just hypothesizing. The reality is, they've won a ton of games at their level. Even if you don't think it's worth being a non-BCS in I-A, what they did last year should forever make up for that. The reality is, a pretty big portion of I-A is non-BCS teams and Boise is right at the top.

[ucdtim17]

The money

It's a well-kept secret that amid all the festivity, bowl games rarely pay for cost of the schools attending them. According to a recent Orange County Register article, Florida and Ohio State each finished more than $600,000 in the red last year from travel expenses to the national title game.

I'd like to see that article - certainly schools have problems with the lower bowls, but I've never heard of any school "losing" money on a BCS bowl. It's a pretty pointless point to make anyways, as all the bowls pay out more than the FCS playoffs and championship though.

[hapapp]

I'd like to see that article - certainly schools have problems with the lower bowls, but I've never heard of any school "losing" money on a BCS bowl. It's a pretty pointless point to make anyways, as all the bowls pay out more than the FCS playoffs and championship though.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22402811/

Florida and Ohio State together ran up more than $5 million in expenses at the 2007 BCS Championship, finishing with a combined deficit of more than $600,000. Texas A&M's expenses for its last two bowl games have exceeded the Aggies' share of bowl payouts by $670,190.

[FCS Preview]

If you're talking about Boise State, the Broncos have done better than "OK" in terms of overall record and perception. If you're talking about the typical caliber of teams the program has had in the context of I-A and now FBS, I think the perception has exceeded the reality. I think that if you look at it in those terms the program has been average at best and probably a little below that.

As I've written before, I think the best measure of where a program really is is how it's done against teams from the 6 conferences that make up the mainstream of the subdivision. That's the BCS leagues. And Boise State, since the BCS started in 1998, is 4 - 12 against such teams. Also, 2 of those wins were during the 2006-2007 storybook season. Otherwise, they are 2 - 12. Even with the benefit of the 2 - 0 storybook season, they are now 2 - 4 against BCS leaguers over the past three years.

The numbers tell us two things. First, they tell us that Boise State has played easy schedules. They have only played a total of 16 games against the mainstream of the subivision over 10 years. Second, it tells us that when they've played such teams they've lost a whole lot more often than they've won.

I don't think Boise State or any other former I-AA other than maybe South Florida has shown that its teams could win more than they lose during some reasonable proportion of seasons against schedules of even average difficulty in the context of the FBS.

So, yes, Boise State's gotten a lot of wins against very weak schedules and gotten a lot of publicity largely because one of its rare wins against the mainstream was high profile. But, in terms of actual on the field caliber of the program as compared to all of the other programs in the subdivision, I think characterizing it as just "OK" is pretty reasonable.

Thanks! Big pos rep for you. :D

[FCS Preview]

And a lot of schools have no chance for the playoff title, either. I think Boise is right where they want to be.

Every team other than the Ivy League and SWAC has a chance at the National Championship.

[Eight Legger]

Here's the link:

http://www.ocregister.com/sports/bowl-schools-last-1949560-bcs-games

The figure was that OSU and Florida combined to spend $5 million on travel and lodging, etc. for this year's national titel game, a combined $600K deficit when compared to the total payout both schools received from the game.

[FCS Preview]

Here's the link:

http://www.ocregister.com/sports/bowl-schools-last-1949560-bcs-games

The figure was that OSU and Florida combined to spend $5 million on travel and lodging, etc. for this year's national titel game, a combined $600K deficit when compared to the total payout both schools received from the game.
IIRC though, the schools include trips to the game for large donors, with the hope that these people will kick in another large donation after the game.

[BearsCountry]

Is winning the National Championship in the lower levels really that big of a deal? I mean I go to basketball, my school won it in NAIA and D2 but our Sweet Sixteen run is considered more important. Baseball same thing, we went to the College World Series, thats more impressive than our D2 national championships.

[FCS Preview]

Is winning the National Championship in the lower levels really that big of a deal? I mean I go to basketball, my school won it in NAIA and D2 but our Sweet Sixteen run is considered more important. Baseball same thing, we went to the College World Series, thats more impressive than our D2 national championships.

I would rather win a national title than a non-championship bowl game. But it's hard to compare other sports, because they all have championship tournaments. Football at the FBS level is not like that. A run to the Sweet 16 in men's basketball for a mid-major school brings great publicity. More than winning the NIT would. A run to the Sweet 16 or Elite 8 could reap benefits for years to come. But if you're in a non-BCS conference, winning non-BCS bowl games will do nothing to get you into the Top 2 of the BCS standings needed to play for the MNC.

[DetroitFlyer]

Every team other than the Ivy League and SWAC has a chance at the National Championship.

Not true. The PFL NEVER gets invited to the playoffs, so for all practical purposes, they do not have a chance at the national championship. The PFL has been around for 15 years.... Number of playoff bids.... A big fat ZERO.

Actions speak louder than words my friend, and what the NCAA's actions have indicated is that the PFL does not have a chance at the national championship.

[DetroitFlyer]

Not true. The PFL NEVER gets invited to the playoffs, so for all practical purposes, they do not have a chance at the national championship. The PFL has been around for 15 years.... Number of playoff bids.... A big fat ZERO.

Actions speak louder than words my friend, and what the NCAA's actions have indicated is that the PFL does not have a chance at the national championship.

Still don't believe it? Then ask yourself why the Sports Network has created a mythical "Mid-Major" title within FCS?

[grizband]

Not true. The PFL NEVER gets invited to the playoffs, so for all practical purposes, they do not have a chance at the national championship. The PFL has been around for 15 years.... Number of playoff bids.... A big fat ZERO.

Actions speak louder than words my friend, and what the NCAA's actions have indicated is that the PFL does not have a chance at the national championship.
That may be true, but the actions of the PFL have shown they are throwing caution to the wind. The schedules of the good PFL teams allow them high winning percentages, without proving anything against playoff caliber teams; had Dayton beat Morehead State this year, they may have been included. Schedule and beat better teams, and you will have your chance.

[FCS Preview]

Not true. The PFL NEVER gets invited to the playoffs, so for all practical purposes, they do not have a chance at the national championship. The PFL has been around for 15 years.... Number of playoff bids.... A big fat ZERO.

Actions speak louder than words my friend, and what the NCAA's actions have indicated is that the PFL does not have a chance at the national championship.

If they play and beat good teams, they will get invited. Play crappy teams and non-D I schools and you won't get invited.

Schools have gotten invitations as independents, by playing and beating good schools.

[FCS Preview]

Still don't believe it? Then ask yourself why the Sports Network has created a mythical "Mid-Major" title within FCS?

The Sports Network has nothing to do with the playoffs though. Nothing stops Dayton from making the playoffs, except for lousy schedules.

[Polar Bear]

Is winning the National Championship in the lower levels really that big of a deal? I mean I go to basketball, my school won it in NAIA and D2 but our Sweet Sixteen run is considered more important. Baseball same thing, we went to the College World Series, thats more impressive than our D2 national championships.

Kinda off the point (ok way off) are you planning on adding the 2 newcomers helmets anytime soon?