Big South/Great West alliance article

[Hansel]

http://www.in-forum.com/articles/index.cfm?id=103118&section=Columnists&columnist=Jeff%20Kolpack

Automatic. Qualifier. They are the two most important words in Division I-AA football and if you’re not convinced, just ask California Poly.

Last year’s Great West Football Conference champ was snubbed from the Division I-AA playoffs for some reason we will never know – or somebody will ever admit.

The Mustangs went 9-2, finished high in the final ESPN/USA Today top 25 poll and owned quality wins over NDSU, Montana State and Texas State.

But because the Great West does not have automatic qualifiers, the Mustangs were left begging for one of eight at-large entrants. They didn’t get invited.

[rokamortis]

I have been in favor of this since it was first brought up - now only if the administrators would agree ....

[Wmbgskip]

Reminds me of the Norpac in Field Hockey...

Good idea, all in all....wouldn't want to try and figure out the auto bid winner, though, if each team only has two cross-over games with the other division.

--Skip

[Hansel]

Reminds me of the Norpac in Field Hockey...

Good idea, all in all....wouldn't want to try and figure out the auto bid winner, though, if each team only has two cross-over games with the other division.

--Skip
I'm assuming it would be similar to what the A-10/12/CAA uses with each team only playing 3 teams from the other six team division

[SuperJon]

I don't like this conference. It just doesn't sit well with me. I don't know why it doesn't, it just doesn't.

[adrianb]

I am OK with the idea. I do not believe that it is a permanent solution, but it does buy both conferences some time to find new members. G-W has traveled to play Montanna State before so we have been will to travel before. If each school from both conferences travels once every other year then I don't think it is such a big deal.

[89Hen]

An interesting idea, but to nitpick...

"A sensible idea that was proposed by the Great West was to have two divisions with two crossover games, meaning each team would have to travel just once."

Is that legit? It would seem to me that if you had a ten team conference, then you should have to play 8 conference games, meaning 3 cross-over games.

[Wmbgskip]

That would make more sense, Hansel...they could probably even get an airline to give them a favorable deal (given that several of the big ones are currently in bankruptcy, and don't have much in the way of leverage). However, my understanding from the article was that they would just have two inter-division games each year, one home, one away, to keep from having to fly a lot.

--Skip

[Hansel]

An interesting idea, but to nitpick...

"A sensible idea that was proposed by the Great West was to have two divisions with two crossover games, meaning each team would have to travel just once."

Is that legit? It would seem to me that if you had a ten team conference, then you should have to play 8 conference games, meaning 3 cross-over games.
I think conferences just need to have their conf schedule OK'd by the NCAA for autobids if they don't play everybody once.

[NoCoDanny]

I’m not sure I understand the logic behind the Big South’s reluctance to travel. If they get an automatic qualifier there is a strong likelihood they would need to travel. So if you genuinely have playoff aspirations then travel is going to be necessary.

[GannonFan]

It would be an interesting match for sure. The Great West appears to have truly legit desires to be a full-fledged IAA conference and they have not shied away from playing anyone. They travel anywhere to play anybody and even with the snub of Cal Poly last year they didn't whine that much about it - almost like they just put their heads down and move forward. Heck, I'd make the argument that the Great West is already one of the top 5, if not better, conferences in IAA. The Big South, on the other hand, seems like a conference that wants all the benefits of being a full-fledged IAA conference without doing all the dirty work to get there. Sure Coastal has scheduled up this year, but the Big South as a whole doesn't schedule that well and, more importantly, doesn't win as a whole. But the whining you hear from Big South media and fans regarding their lack of inclusion in the playoffs is constant. I think the Big South may be reluctant to do something like this because of the competitive imbalance between the two conferences - I would surely see the Great West teams having a decided edge on the field so maybe all the Big South teams would get out of this affair is the bottom half of a new conference. I agree with the other poster on the supposed lack of desire for Big South schools to travel far distances - if you want into the playoffs, you have to realize you will need to travel then (UNH went to Georgia Southern one week, Montana the next, W. Kentucky went to Texas and then Sam Houston went all the way to Washington - it's a big country, teams are a little spread out). I would be in favor of these two conferences pairing up - I despise the potential of tons of little conferences with just enough teams to get the autobid - there's too much potential there for bad teams to get into the playoffs - but a larger league would be better at filtering out a lucky team from just winning a handful of games to win their conference and sneak in. No one sneaks into the playoffs in a 10 team league.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Don't forget, no new auto-bids can be offerred without an expansion of the tournament field or an exisiting auto-bid conference losing/giving up its bid.

[IaaScribe]

Cross post from another board on my part:

Wow, that seemed like an unnecessary swipe at the Big South.

First off, it's Cal Poly, not California Poly. They're touchy about that over there.

Second off, what a lot of people don't seem to understand is that just getting a sixth team won't guarantee a bid to the playoffs for the Big South or the Great West. Two Great West teams - North Dakota State and South Dakota State - aren't even playoff eligible until 2008. And the I-AA playoff committee still only gives eight auto bids. Unless the playoffs expand to 24 teams (they won't), someone would have to wrestle a bid away from an established league.

And the travel issue is a huge one for a school like Chuck South or VMI that doesn't have a huge athletics budget. A trip to North Dakota or Cal Poly is terribly expensive for a college football traveling party.

To pin this whole thing on the Big South is wrong and shortsighted. The reporter ought to do a little more research before just throwing blame around. You can't just snap your fingers and make this happen. This writer believes you can.

[OL FU]

Outside of CCU and Liberty, do any of the other BSouth schools have play off aspirations? I don't think Charleston Southern does. VMI would probably say they do but I don't believe they put the resources behind that and if so why did they leave the SoCon. Gardner Webb, maybe. Does any one know if they allocate the resources?

[GannonFan]

Cross post from another board on my part:

Wow, that seemed like an unnecessary swipe at the Big South.

First off, it's Cal Poly, not California Poly. They're touchy about that over there.

Second off, what a lot of people don't seem to understand is that just getting a sixth team won't guarantee a bid to the playoffs for the Big South or the Great West. Two Great West teams - North Dakota State and South Dakota State - aren't even playoff eligible until 2008. And the I-AA playoff committee still only gives eight auto bids. Unless the playoffs expand to 24 teams (they won't), someone would have to wrestle a bid away from an established league.

And the travel issue is a huge one for a school like Chuck South or VMI that doesn't have a huge athletics budget. A trip to North Dakota or Cal Poly is terribly expensive for a college football traveling party.

To pin this whole thing on the Big South is wrong and shortsighted. The reporter ought to do a little more research before just throwing blame around. You can't just snap your fingers and make this happen. This writer believes you can.

So if one of the smaller athletic budget schools got an invite to the playoffs, would they turn it down? I know the NCAA covers some of the cost but it doesn't cover anything. I cringe at the thougt of a Big South school having an impromptu Car Wash to raise the money to travel out to a playoff game. :)

[IaaScribe]

I think Liberty, CCU and G-W would be OK money-wise. The way the NCAA sets the playoffs up, though, is regional. So unless one of those teams made a deep run into the playoffs and had to make trips to Montana and SIU on consecutive weeks, for instance, the money isn't as big of an issue.

Charleston Southern still plays four or five D-IIs a year. That's not a program that wants to spend the money to compete in the big time of I-AA.

[GannonFan]

The regional thing only goes so far - there are plenty examples of teams travelling far distances in even the first round, so there is no guarantee that a first round game will be close by. By the quarterfinals, there's even less guarantee of a close game. If you're saying that a Big South team would very rarely get far in the playoffs, then what's the big deal in terms of getting into the playoffs anyway - if you don't think you can win, maybe those teams should get better first before gaining admittance to the playoffs.

[HarrisburgFlame]

The big deal is in recruiting. Right now in the BSC when you recruit you have no automoatic bid to offer as a carrot. At least with a bid, you can frame it to kids as "opportunity to play for a title". Right now BSC teams can't do that. Your chances of getting furhter in the playoffs is a product of having better players - so I see it as more of a recruiting benefit than anything else initially.

[OL FU]

My point, which I did not make, is the reason the Big South is hesitant to combine is that one of their schools is making absolutely no attempt to be playoff caliber (Charleston Southern). VMI, from my recollection, has never been playoff caliber and there is no evidence they are getting there. ( and if they were interested in the playoffs why leave the SoCon). Gardner Webb may have playoff aspirations but they obviously have a long way to go.

So if three of your five teams are not going to step up to playoff caliber status in the forceable future, why spend the money to travel west simply to play in a conference with an auto bid to the playoffs when those three of five schools are not going to the playoffs regardless.



That sentence was much too long

[IaaScribe]

Not to mention you'd have to have a conference championship game to determine the auto-bid.

Travel is one issue. The other big issue is that if they do combine, there is NO GUARANTEE OF AN AUTOMATIC PLAYOFF BID. Why combine if that's not there? Then, it's just a waste of money. Who is going to give up their auto bid for a new Great Big South West Conference? The MEAC? The Patriot? No way. Will they expand the playoffs? No. So to pin this on the Big South and say, "well, they could make it happen, but they're dragging their heels, so it's their fault," is asinine. There are so many factors at play that it's not as simple an issue as the gentleman from N.D. is making it out to be.

[Hansel]

Not to mention you'd have to have a conference championship game to determine the auto-bid.

Travel is one issue. The other big issue is that if they do combine, there is NO GUARANTEE OF AN AUTOMATIC PLAYOFF BID. Why combine if that's not there? Then, it's just a waste of money. Who is going to give up their auto bid for a new Great Big South West Conference? The MEAC? The Patriot? No way. Will they expand the playoffs? No. So to pin this on the Big South and say, "well, they could make it happen, but they're dragging their heels, so it's their fault," is asinine. There are so many factors at play that it's not as simple an issue as the gentleman from N.D. is making it out to be.
No conference championship game would be needed, the A-10 has 12 members in two 6 team divisions. All teams do not play each other yet they crown a champ and have no championship game

[WhereDoITypeMyUsername?]

I'd hate to see the Great West, which is off to a pretty good start, get watered down by adding the Big South flotsam. Much better if the rules were relaxed to let five-qualifying-team leagues have an autobid and then take one away from one of the cream puff conferences that hasn't been post-season worthy for a decade.

It may sound harsh, but it would make much more sense to have an autobid in the Great West than it does to have one in the MEAC, Patriot, or Ohio Valley. Sorry, it ain't 1995 anymore.

[IaaScribe]

Yes Hansel, but the A-10 plays three inter-division games, along with the five intra-division games, so some semblance of a true champion is named. That wouldn't be the case in the Great Big South West.

And no, you don't want Chuck South in your conference. They shouldn't even be at I-AA.

[arkstfan]

Well it needs to happen if for no other reason that we do need a conference called the "Great Big South West".

That's gotta ring to it.

[PMB4Life]

Division I-AA puts more stock in strength of schedule than wins and losses.

This statement is bunk. "SHENANIGANS," declared the Gentleman from Cedar Falls. UNI went 7-4 last year, but had a strong schedule against Iowa State, Southern Illinois, Western Kentucky, and Stephen F. Austin. We were shut out. Truth be told, I would have given the bid to Cal Poly before us, however.

[GannonFan]

Not to mention you'd have to have a conference championship game to determine the auto-bid.

Travel is one issue. The other big issue is that if they do combine, there is NO GUARANTEE OF AN AUTOMATIC PLAYOFF BID. Why combine if that's not there? Then, it's just a waste of money. Who is going to give up their auto bid for a new Great Big South West Conference? The MEAC? The Patriot? No way. Will they expand the playoffs? No. So to pin this on the Big South and say, "well, they could make it happen, but they're dragging their heels, so it's their fault," is asinine. There are so many factors at play that it's not as simple an issue as the gentleman from N.D. is making it out to be.

You'll never know until you try - to sit there and not do the things you need to do to qualify as a conference for the autobid (i.e. get at least another team) just makes it self-fulfilling. As far as I know, there is no full-scholarship conference out there who does not have a scheduling conflict with the playoffs that does not have an automatic bid. So, to date, there's no evidence that if you became qualified as a conference that you wouldn't get an autobid. If you're going to complain about being denied something, I would suggest you be qualified for it (the auto-bid) before you start complaining.

[GannonFan]

This statement is bunk. "SHENANIGANS," declared the Gentleman from Cedar Falls. UNI went 7-4 last year, but had a strong schedule against Iowa State, Southern Illinois, Western Kentucky, and Stephen F. Austin. We were shut out. Truth be told, I would have given the bid to Cal Poly before us, however.

Oh, come on, that's bunk too. UNI only beat one team all last year who had a winning record, and that was SWMS, who was 6-5 overall but had a losing record in conference. UNI didn't beat a single good team and even found a way to lose at home to SFA, who, despite being on your list as a strong team, was in fact in last place in the Southland last year. So yes, we agree, I think Cal Poly should have gotten in before UNI last year ;)

[IaaScribe]

You'll never know until you try - to sit there and not do the things you need to do to qualify as a conference for the autobid (i.e. get at least another team) just makes it self-fulfilling. As far as I know, there is no full-scholarship conference out there who does not have a scheduling conflict with the playoffs that does not have an automatic bid. So, to date, there's no evidence that if you became qualified as a conference that you wouldn't get an autobid. If you're going to complain about being denied something, I would suggest you be qualified for it (the auto-bid) before you start complaining.

I'm assuming you're talking about the Big South complaining and not me. I don't have a dog in this fight. :)

As far as the auto bids to the playoffs: only those eight leagues have them. And I'm not sure the folks on the I-AA committee (all members of those eight leagues, mind you) will give up one of those at-large berths to the Big South or the NEC or the Great West (hypothetical, I'm not suggesting the NEC deserves and auto-bid) or whomever else qualifies. It would be interesting to see the fight, though.

[GannonFan]

I'm assuming you're talking about the Big South complaining and not me. I don't have a dog in this fight. :)

As far as the auto bids to the playoffs: only those eight leagues have them. And I'm not sure the folks on the I-AA committee (all members of those eight leagues, mind you) will give up one of those at-large berths to the Big South or the NEC or the Great West (hypothetical, I'm not suggesting the NEC deserves and auto-bid) or whomever else qualifies. It would be interesting to see the fight, though.

Yes, I was referring to the Big South, not you. Yup, we won't know what will happen until a I-AA conference, with full scholarships, meets the qualification for an autobid and doesn't have the Ivy/SWAC self-imposed issues that prevent them from getting an autobid. I think something would change (likely the size of playoffs) but for right now it's a moot point because no conference is being unfairly denied an autobid.

[OrneryAggie]

It doesn't make sense to me. Why spend money on a forced cross country trip to a Big South school that, more often than not, would lower your SOS when you could schedule a western IA payday and get a tough Big Sky school into your own stadium? GWFC fans have to travel far enough as it is. If we're going to schedule cross country trips I'd rather see the ags play some Ivy or A10 schools that our fans could get relatively excited about.

The way NDSU and the other transitioning schools are playing right now you can bet that the GWFC will get an 'automatic' at-large bid every year when they're all playoff eligible.

[IaaScribe]

It doesn't make sense to me. Why spend money on a forced cross country trip to a Big South school that, more often than not, would lower your SOS when you could schedule a western IA payday and get a tough Big Sky school into your own stadium? GWFC fans have to travel far enough as it is. If we're going to schedule cross country trips I'd rather see the ags play some Ivy or A10 schools that our fans could get relatively excited about.

The way NDSU and the other transitioning schools are playing right now you can bet that the GWFC will get an 'automatic' at-large bid every year when they're all playoff eligible.

I wholeheartedly agree, especially if you were saddled with a cross-country trip to play freaking Charleston Southern, which was beaten by six touchdowns at home by a DII team last week.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I don't think the "2 crossover game" should be the solution 1) because Chuck Southern and VMI probably wouldn't go for it and 2) the Great West schools already travel enough as it is. However... I did have a thought on this.

Maybe the Great West and Big South winners could meet in a play-in game the week before the I-AA playoffs actually start. (Once all the teams in both conferences are playoff-eligible, of course.) It could be on a neutral field, like (say) Chatty, that isn't too far from either school.

To compensate, your would probably need to add another play-in game involving at least 2 more at-large teams, making the balance 50% of autobids and at-large. That makes minimum 18 teams. Plus, there's no way to do this without moving the playoffs out another week.

Not sure how well I like this, but IMO it's a better solution than the guy was describing.

[OL FU]

When the GWFC is eligible they should get an auto-bid. and reduce the number of at-large teams. If the Big South becomes eligible and more than one of the programs is playoff caliber the same thing should happen. If more than 2 auto bids are added, the number of teams in the playoffs should be increased.

[AggiePride]

It doesn't make sense to me. Why spend money on a forced cross country trip to a Big South school that, more often than not, would lower your SOS when you could schedule a western IA payday and get a tough Big Sky school into your own stadium? GWFC fans have to travel far enough as it is. If we're going to schedule cross country trips I'd rather see the ags play some Ivy or A10 schools that our fans could get relatively excited about.

The way NDSU and the other transitioning schools are playing right now you can bet that the GWFC will get an 'automatic' at-large bid every year when they're all playoff eligible.

Agreed.

I have absolutely no interest in any of the matchups, except maybe one. It may sound snobbish, but I think the GWFC would be playing down, and with a price to fans, SOS, and possible 1-A and top 1-AA matchups that create interest. Though you might insure 1 Autobid for 10 teams in that frankenstein of a conference, I personally think that with a better SOS the GWFC might put two in every year on its own. Just my opinion.

When I first read this thread, all I thought was.... "meh"....... "autobid" and all.

We don't need no stinking autobid ;)

[WhereDoITypeMyUsername?]

Said the Davis guy.

Anyone in San Luis Obispo disagree? :)

[Mr. C]

When the GWFC is eligible they should get an auto-bid. and reduce the number of at-large teams. If the Big South becomes eligible and more than one of the programs is playoff caliber the same thing should happen. If more than 2 auto bids are added, the number of teams in the playoffs should be increased.
To add additional auto bids would take a change in the by-laws. Right now the requirement is that 50 percent of the field is auto bid and 50 percent is at-large. Changing by-laws is not an easy thing to do, but it is not impossible. Big South commish Kyle Kallendar said there is some lobbying going on to do that, but I'm not sure how much support there is for that right now. The status quo suits the teams that get the auto bids and most of the at-large bids. Why would they want to change?

By the way, the Great West-Big South alliance was on the agenda at the conference meetings during the media day. The VMI contingent told me about it and thought it was an intriguing idea (VMI would jump at a playoff bid in a heartbeat, by the way), though there was concern about the travel costs.

[slostang]

What I would like is for the Big Sky Conference take on NDSU and SDSU as full conference members and Cal Poly, UC Davis and Southern Utah as football only members and form a two division football conference that would rival the A-10 conference.

You could form a "western division" with:

Eastern Washington
Portland State
Idaho State
Sac State
UC Davis
Cal Poly
NAU

And a "eastern division or mountain division" with:

Southern Utah
Weber State
Montana
Montana State
North Dakota State
South Dakota State
Northern Colorado

I know I am dreaming, the Big Sky would never agree, but I think that would have to be one of the top conferences in I-AA.

[IaaScribe]

Not a bad idea, SLO. The only problem is that the Big Sky folk won't want to give up their guaranteed game with Montana every year. It's a great SOS game built into the schedule and Griz fans travel, so you get some extra gate from that game. Plus, Montana is the one true nationally recognizable name that fans might identify with, so the bandwagon ones show up.

(Don't bark at me MSU fans. When I covered NAU, Montana would consistently outdraw MSU at the Skydome, usually by a good 3,000-4,000 fans. MSU doesn't have the same drawing power at Montana.)

[Ronbo]

What I would like is for the Big Sky Conference take on NDSU and SDSU as full conference members and Cal Poly, UC Davis and Southern Utah as football only members and form a two division football conference that would rival the A-10 conference.

You could form a "western division" with:

Eastern Washington
Portland State
Idaho State
Sac State
UC Davis
Cal Poly
NAU

And a "eastern division or mountain division" with:

Southern Utah
Weber State
Montana
Montana State
North Dakota State
South Dakota State
Northern Colorado

I know I am dreaming, the Big Sky would never agree, but I think that would have to be one of the top conferences in I-AA.

ISU is further east than Montana in Pocatello. Switch SUU and ISU. SUU is down real close to N. Arizona. Weber and ISU are real close.

[blur2005]

Just take the OVC auto bid away and give it to the Great West. Then convince Nevada to come back to I-AA (won't happen), and maybe steal another school from somewhere else.

[slostang]

Eastern Kentucky and Jacksonville State may have something to say about that, but I like your thinking.

[blur2005]

Eastern Kentucky and Jacksonville State may have something to say about that, but I like your thinking.
They should leave the conference...it would really be dead then. Have EKU go to the Gateway or Southland, and Jacksonville State to the Southland or Southern. Or something.