Patriot League Adopts Revisions to Academic Policies

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The League announced these today. I will absolutely have a blog posting on this later today (telling what I do or do not know):

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com

From the press release:


Center Valley, Pa. - The Patriot League Council of Presidents endorsed a set of recommendations for revising the League's academic index with the objective of providing more consistency in the application of the index and internal equity between member institutions. The actions will also enhance admissions and athletic competitiveness of programs externally while maintaining the integrity of the League's founding principles.

[Go...gate]

What does this mean in English?

[Tribe4SF]

What does this mean in English?

On this subject they don't speak English in the Patriot.xrulesx

[danefan]

What does this mean in English?

Translation = "Oh crap! The NEC is going to take our AQ....." xrolleyesx xsmiley_wix xthumbsupx

[DFW HOYA]

Now if we only knew what they said.... xeyebrowx

[DetroitFlyer]

The Patriot League has been feeling the pressure intensify the last few years. Having Albany and Dayton defeat their champion, on their Champion's home field probably helped to open some eyes! I'm not really sure how AI reform can help, unless it allows the schools to bring in kids with lower academic profiles.... Still, without scholarships, some of those kids will still not be able to afford a PL education.... I will be curious to read LFN's explanation(s). He has followed this process very closely, and if anyone can make sense of it, LFN can....

[Marcus Garvey]

I also heard that they're going to initiate an award for "Outstanding Achievement in the Field of Excellence!"
;)

[Go...gate]

Bottom line looks like no football scholarships?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Not sure... I am efforting having something up on this by the end of the day.

[Franks Tanks]

Bottom line looks like no football scholarships?

Well we have already modified the founding principles in regard to scholly's in all other sports. Detroit Flyer--lowering the AI will allow us to expand our pool of potential recruits, not only do we lose high end kids to the Ivies, but many other kids who want in cant get in--this is a step in the right directions, but not a huge difference

[Go...gate]

Well we have already modified the founding principles in regard to scholly's in all other sports. Detroit Flyer--lowering the AI will allow us to expand our pool of potential recruits, not only do we lose high end kids to the Ivies, but many other kids who want in cant get in--this is a step in the right directions, but not a huge difference

Doesn't this also potentially open the door for a school like Marist?

[LUHawker]

Doesn't this also potentially open the door for a school like Marist?

I wouldn't think so, since this reflects adjusting the AI for the member schools, not adjusting the standard across the board for the League.

Again, let me say that I for one think Marist is not a good fit for the League. It doesn't mean that it wouldn't be a better fit than some other not good fit schools, just that it is not an enhancement for the League.

And to DetroitFlyer, get over the fact that Dayton defeated Fordham early in the season. The season is over, let's move on.

[DetroitFlyer]

I wouldn't think so, since this reflects adjusting the AI for the member schools, not adjusting the standard across the board for the League.

Again, let me say that I for one think Marist is not a good fit for the League. It doesn't mean that it wouldn't be a better fit than some other not good fit schools, just that it is not an enhancement for the League.

And to DetroitFlyer, get over the fact that Dayton defeated Fordham early in the season. The season is over, let's move on.

See, a sore point for PL fans.... :p

Early in the season.... I think it was game #4 for both teams.... I suppose you can say first third of the season if it makes you feel better....

As I said, if the fans have noticed, the powers that be have noticed as well that teams like Dayton and Albany in 2007 have caught up with the PL. Time to lower the standards to be more competitive.... I guess that the standards have to be lowered all the way to Dayton's level going forward, LOL!!

Seriously though, I will be interested as to how the AI can be "adjusted" in a manner to improve competitiveness while maintaining the academic mission of the PL.... Sounds like a very fine line to walk to me....

[Fordham]

Very interested to learn more about this.

Is the motivation for this moreso external (Ivy-squeeze) ... or internal (Fordham wins crown this year)? Thoughts?

Certainly telling that they seem to be stepping up to this issue and not scholarships as their first priority following those big end-of-season meetings.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Very interested to learn more about this.

Is the motivation for this moreso external (Ivy-squeeze) ... or internal (Fordham wins crown this year)? Thoughts?

Certainly telling that they seem to be stepping up to this issue and not scholarships as their first priority following those big end-of-season meetings.

I can say that Fordham winning the championship had zero to do with this policy change. Back in August, when Fordham was picked to finish sixth out of seven teams, the executive director of the Patriot League was saying that the AI was under review and that something would be announced in October and later this year.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I put up a post on this.

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com

Look for a future CSN piece on this development, hopefully this week.

[Seawolf97]

The League announced these today. I will absolutely have a blog posting on this later today (telling what I do or do not know):

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com

From the press release:

As always you are on top of things in the Patriot. Hope this works for you guysxthumbsupx

[Franks Tanks]

See, a sore point for PL fans.... :p

Early in the season.... I think it was game #4 for both teams.... I suppose you can say first third of the season if it makes you feel better....

As I said, if the fans have noticed, the powers that be have noticed as well that teams like Dayton and Albany in 2007 have caught up with the PL. Time to lower the standards to be more competitive.... I guess that the standards have to be lowered all the way to Dayton's level going forward, LOL!!

Seriously though, I will be interested as to how the AI can be "adjusted" in a manner to improve competitiveness while maintaining the academic mission of the PL.... Sounds like a very fine line to walk to me....

Adjusting the AI doesnt mean we are gonna start letting in kids with 800 SAT's. It means we can get in kids with an 1100 perhaps. That is still a solid student and fits into the student aathlete mode pretty well.

[Ken_Z]

Certainly telling that they seem to be stepping up to this issue and not scholarships as their first priority following those big end-of-season meetings.


is it possible that they would choose to keep changes on the scholarship stance quiet since it could compromise recruiting for the current year? player might be reluctant to come on a non-scholly basis knowing sholarship players will follow the next year. i would not really see this as a significant issue, but it could affect some players decisions.

anyway, expansion appears to continue to be very high on the league's agenda. our President specifically expansion in remarks at a recent reception. (unfortunately, i arrived late and missed his comments, so i cannot give specifics on the quote or context). my take continues to be that the scholarship position needs to be resolved before expansion can happen.

i am modifying my odds on scholarships happening down from 2/3 to 1/2. i think we will either have an announcement re scholarships by this summer (for the 2009 recruiting cycle) or else an expansion announcement including Marist (and reaffirmation of commitment to need based aid for football).

have at it.

[DetroitFlyer]

Adjusting the AI doesnt mean we are gonna start letting in kids with 800 SAT's. It means we can get in kids with an 1100 perhaps. That is still a solid student and fits into the student aathlete mode pretty well.


A student / athlete with an 1100 SAT.... Sounds like a Dayton recruit to me.... I agree 100% that the PL leaves very good student / athletes out in the cold, so to speak, because of the desire to maintain an "elite" academic status.... Of course this is true for all students. The PL has decided to try to be the Ivy light, and it will always limit students that might thrive at a PL school, but cannot get in due to the elite status desired by the schools. The Ivy League goes all the way, shunning the playoffs and openly declaring that they do not wish to be involved with the temptation to lower standards to be more competitive, ( especially with the FBS schools ).

I think that the most viable solution to this issue is an academic football league. Let's face it, FBS programs like Stanford, Rice, Duke, Northwestern, etc. are NEVER going to be successful on a regular basis. The Ivy League has addressed the issue by using the turtle strategy and pulling back into its shell. The PL is now discussing pushing the academic limits so that somehow they can admit kids with lower academic credentials in order to try to remain a little bit competitive with the traditional FCS schools.... Of course the PFL, even though there is no AI or rigid league academic standards, recruits good students in order to offer academic aid.... All of these schools are playing a losing game in remaining competitive against the large State U's.

Imagine a subdivision of NCAA football dedicated to fielding excellent academic teams.... I think the FCS level would be the appropriate place for such a league. The Ivy, PL, PFL, and the FBS academics would be the members. Maybe even the private schools of the NEC would join in. These schools are essentially recruiting the same kids anyway, so now they would be playing similar competition. Of course they could still schedule whatever State U they wanted to, so becoming isolated would not be a problem. The solution is so obvious that it can never happen. I mean can you imagine Stanford "dropping down" to FCS to compete in the academic league? Most fans and folks associated with the program would probably prefer 2-9 records most years, with an occasional 6-5 season and a lower level bowl game....

Good luck to the PL in compromising your academic standards in order to try to maintain some competitiveness in the FCS world. Time will tell if this approach is the right direction.

[LUHawker]

A student / athlete with an 1100 SAT.... Sounds like a Dayton recruit to me.... I agree 100% that the PL leaves very good student / athletes out in the cold, so to speak, because of the desire to maintain an "elite" academic status.... Of course this is true for all students. The PL has decided to try to be the Ivy light, and it will always limit students that might thrive at a PL school, but cannot get in due to the elite status desired by the schools. The Ivy League goes all the way, shunning the playoffs and openly declaring that they do not wish to be involved with the temptation to lower standards to be more competitive, ( especially with the FBS schools ).

I think that the most viable solution to this issue is an academic football league. Let's face it, FBS programs like Stanford, Rice, Duke, Northwestern, etc. are NEVER going to be successful on a regular basis. The Ivy League has addressed the issue by using the turtle strategy and pulling back into its shell. The PL is now discussing pushing the academic limits so that somehow they can admit kids with lower academic credentials in order to try to remain a little bit competitive with the traditional FCS schools.... Of course the PFL, even though there is no AI or rigid league academic standards, recruits good students in order to offer academic aid.... All of these schools are playing a losing game in remaining competitive against the large State U's.

Imagine a subdivision of NCAA football dedicated to fielding excellent academic teams.... I think the FCS level would be the appropriate place for such a league. The Ivy, PL, PFL, and the FBS academics would be the members. Maybe even the private schools of the NEC would join in. These schools are essentially recruiting the same kids anyway, so now they would be playing similar competition. Of course they could still schedule whatever State U they wanted to, so becoming isolated would not be a problem. The solution is so obvious that it can never happen. I mean can you imagine Stanford "dropping down" to FCS to compete in the academic league? Most fans and folks associated with the program would probably prefer 2-9 records most years, with an occasional 6-5 season and a lower level bowl game....

Good luck to the PL in compromising your academic standards in order to try to maintain some competitiveness in the FCS world. Time will tell if this approach is the right direction.

You are delusional if you think that somehow the PFL schools are remotely on par with the Ivy or PL schools. This isn't elitism or ego or hubris talking, this is the fact of the matter. In all of my career experience, I've never once dealt with a Dayton grad. The bulk of my peers are Ivy and PL grads. So please dispense with your idea of an "Academic League" that includes the PFL, Ivy and PL. I think the PL and the Ivy League are largely happy with where they are at. While we're at it, I don't know if we know enough about the adjustment to the AI to state that the PL is compromising our academic standards at this point. What I do know, is that if the PL ever let Dayton into the league, that would clearly be compromising our standards.

[danefan]

xpopcornx
Uh oh....here it comes......

[Model Citizen]

Don't feed the trolls, Flyer.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

What's important to consider here is that until relatively recently, PL schools have been getting in kids with 1100 SATs and 3.1 GPAs - but with the academic profile shooting up (in Colgate and Lehigh's case, and very likely others) those kids they could get five years ago are now getting squeezed out.

Whether AI reform is a part of a larger reform including aid reform remains to be seen. AI reform should be greeted with streamers and high-fives from Georgetown - and should give the Hoyas a better opportunity to compete in football. However, what remains to be seen is if Georgetown has the institutional will to improve football to the point that they can compete for PL championships.

But if AI reform isn't coupled with aid reform, the desired effect may not be enough to lose kids to the CAA/NEC/Stony Brook and their scholarships (which I think was the main driver for this study to begin with). It's worth mentioning again that football is the main holdout in terms of aid - in all other sports can choose to give "scholarships" if they want.

Nothing against Dayton, Drake, Butler et. al. but these schools ARE different than the Ivy and PL Leagues simply because the Ivy and PL compete against each other in all sports and have all sorts of relationships in a variety of sports, while Dayton, Butler and the other PFL schools are united in football only and choose to pursue non-scholarship football and have other associations in other big-time sports (read: basketball) that they choose to preserve.


anyway, expansion appears to continue to be very high on the league's agenda. our President specifically expansion in remarks at a recent reception. (unfortunately, i arrived late and missed his comments, so i cannot give specifics on the quote or context). my take continues to be that the scholarship position needs to be resolved before expansion can happen.

i am modifying my odds on scholarships happening down from 2/3 to 1/2. i think we will either have an announcement re scholarships by this summer (for the 2009 recruiting cycle) or else an expansion announcement including Marist (and reaffirmation of commitment to need based aid for football).

I have also noticed the talk about expansion, and I think that there has been some serious talk on that topic. I have theories as to who it might be, but that's the extent of it. My theories do involve moves that add to the basketball side of the league, however, and not football per se - I think football would be an "added benefit" instead of expanding with the idea of shoring up football. Heck, Dayton may be one of the schools that the PL is talking to!

I have no idea if aid reform is part of the agenda, but I hope to find out more out about this.

[DetroitFlyer]

Hmmmmmmmm.... I do not recall saying that PFL schools were on a par with Ivy or PL schools.... I said that we recruit the same type of student / athletes. Big difference. The PFL recruits excellent student/athletes so that we can offer them academic aid. Not too hard to figure out, even for a PL fan.... By the way, who has more Academic All Americans, Dayton or any school in the PL? If you do not understand that the Ivy and PL strive to be "elite" you must have missed something during that PL education you received or are receiving....

As for an "academic league" the standards would obviously have to be defined. I can assure you that schools like Dayton, Valparaiso, Davidson, San Diego, etc. are not what one would call academic slugs....

I have done the work previously to clearly show that Dayton is not on a par with any PL school. Dayton would not be a good fit academically for the PL, no matter how bad the PL may want Dayton to join. Dayton would fit in the PL about as well as Towson did a few years back.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

As for an "academic league" the standards would obviously have to be defined. I can assure you that schools like Dayton, Valparaiso, Davidson, San Diego, etc. are not what one would call academic slugs....

I have done the work previously to clearly show that Dayton is not on a par with any PL school. Dayton would not be a good fit academically for the PL, no matter how bad the PL may want Dayton to join. Dayton would fit in the PL about as well as Towson did a few years back.

UD, VU, Davidson and USD are definitely not bad schools. Davidson was a founding member of the PL but found the travel to be too much to stay in the league.

Towson was always different since they are a public institution. (However, as others have pointed out, Towson helped us hold the league together during the tough years, so to Towson: xthumbsupx.) Dayton would be a better fit that Towson was because they are private, and would probably be closer to a Fordham than a Towson, IMO. Don't sell Dayton short, DF! xnonox :D

I keep looking at the A-10 for possible expansion candidates - and not the ones you're thinking. Moving to the PL - especially now that they've dropped football - might make a lot of sense in *basketball* for a school like LaSalle. Yes, academically LaSalle isn't in the same ballpark as the rest of the PL. But if faced with the chance to get a lucrative part of the Philadelphia basketball market, would the PL really say no? What about other private religious-affiliated schools like Manhattan, or other America East or MAAC schools?

[Pard94]

A student / athlete with an 1100 SAT.... Sounds like a Dayton recruit to me.... I agree 100% that the PL leaves very good student / athletes out in the cold, so to speak, because of the desire to maintain an "elite" academic status.... Of course this is true for all students. The PL has decided to try to be the Ivy light, and it will always limit students that might thrive at a PL school, but cannot get in due to the elite status desired by the schools. The Ivy League goes all the way, shunning the playoffs and openly declaring that they do not wish to be involved with the temptation to lower standards to be more competitive, ( especially with the FBS schools ).

I think that the most viable solution to this issue is an academic football league. Let's face it, FBS programs like Stanford, Rice, Duke, Northwestern, etc. are NEVER going to be successful on a regular basis. The Ivy League has addressed the issue by using the turtle strategy and pulling back into its shell. The PL is now discussing pushing the academic limits so that somehow they can admit kids with lower academic credentials in order to try to remain a little bit competitive with the traditional FCS schools.... Of course the PFL, even though there is no AI or rigid league academic standards, recruits good students in order to offer academic aid.... All of these schools are playing a losing game in remaining competitive against the large State U's.

Imagine a subdivision of NCAA football dedicated to fielding excellent academic teams.... I think the FCS level would be the appropriate place for such a league. The Ivy, PL, PFL, and the FBS academics would be the members. Maybe even the private schools of the NEC would join in. These schools are essentially recruiting the same kids anyway, so now they would be playing similar competition. Of course they could still schedule whatever State U they wanted to, so becoming isolated would not be a problem. The solution is so obvious that it can never happen. I mean can you imagine Stanford "dropping down" to FCS to compete in the academic league? Most fans and folks associated with the program would probably prefer 2-9 records most years, with an occasional 6-5 season and a lower level bowl game....

Good luck to the PL in compromising your academic standards in order to try to maintain some competitiveness in the FCS world. Time will tell if this approach is the right direction.

Is Dayton fully accredited?

[Franks Tanks]

UD, VU, Davidson and USD are definitely not bad schools. Davidson was a founding member of the PL but found the travel to be too much to stay in the league.

Towson was always different since they are a public institution. (However, as others have pointed out, Towson helped us hold the league together during the tough years, so to Towson: xthumbsupx.) Dayton would be a better fit that Towson was because they are private, and would probably be closer to a Fordham than a Towson, IMO. Don't sell Dayton short, DF! xnonox :D

I keep looking at the A-10 for possible expansion candidates - and not the ones you're thinking. Moving to the PL - especially now that they've dropped football - might make a lot of sense in *basketball* for a school like LaSalle. Yes, academically LaSalle isn't in the same ballpark as the rest of the PL. But if faced with the chance to get a lucrative part of the Philadelphia basketball market, would the PL really say no? What about other private religious-affiliated schools like Manhattan, or other America East or MAAC schools?


I dont think I really agree with you arguement of adding schools like Manhattan. I dont see whats in it for the league to add a non-football school that is below the academic profile. Yes they may help the b-ball standing a bit, but i dont think its worth it. I would be ok with adding a school with lower standards only if they would bring a solid football program along, otherwise the scarifice just isnt worth it to me as we are not desperate for a new b-ball member at this juncture

[DetroitFlyer]

Is Dayton fully accredited?


Well, I are a graaduate.... And ifens I recall rightly, I think that I did get some of them there credits along the way.... I'm supposin that since I have acredit or two, we must be one of them there schools that is fully accredited.xthumbsupx

[Go...gate]

UD, VU, Davidson and USD are definitely not bad schools. Davidson was a founding member of the PL but found the travel to be too much to stay in the league.

Towson was always different since they are a public institution. (However, as others have pointed out, Towson helped us hold the league together during the tough years, so to Towson: xthumbsupx.) Dayton would be a better fit that Towson was because they are private, and would probably be closer to a Fordham than a Towson, IMO. Don't sell Dayton short, DF! xnonox :D

I keep looking at the A-10 for possible expansion candidates - and not the ones you're thinking. Moving to the PL - especially now that they've dropped football - might make a lot of sense in *basketball* for a school like LaSalle. Yes, academically LaSalle isn't in the same ballpark as the rest of the PL. But if faced with the chance to get a lucrative part of the Philadelphia basketball market, would the PL really say no? What about other private religious-affiliated schools like Manhattan, or other America East or MAAC schools?

Actually, they were not; William & Mary was, in 1984. Davidson came in in 1986 right before formal FB play began.

[Go...gate]

I dont think I really agree with you arguement of adding schools like Manhattan. I dont see whats in it for the league to add a non-football school that is below the academic profile. Yes they may help the b-ball standing a bit, but i dont think its worth it. I would be ok with adding a school with lower standards only if they would bring a solid football program along, otherwise the scarifice just isnt worth it to me as we are not desperate for a new b-ball member at this juncture

I really hope we do not go in the direction of Manhattan or LaSalle.

[LBPop]

Well, I are a graaduate.... And ifens I recall rightly, I think that I did get some of them there credits along the way.... I'm supposin that since I have acredit or two, we must be one of them there schools that is fully accredited.xthumbsupx

Hmmm...sounds like you guys would be a perfect fit in the Southeast Conference.;)

But seriously folks, I have a question or two. Does the vote on this change have to be unanimous? And if not, must every member school adhere to any new policy? I ask this because I have no idea if the administration at Georgetown would be on board with any further academic compromise for that relatively unimportant game...football. xrolleyesx

[Franks Tanks]

Hmmm...sounds like you guys would be a perfect fit in the Southeast Conference.;)

But seriously folks, I have a question or two. Does the vote on this change have to be unanimous? And if not, must every member school adhere to any new policy? I ask this because I have no idea if the administration at Georgetown would be on board with any further academic compromise for that relatively unimportant game...football. xrolleyesx


I believe these are minimum guidelines to be followed in regard to AI-- each individual school can choose to set the admission bar higher.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Hmmm...sounds like you guys would be a perfect fit in the Southeast Conference.;)

But seriously folks, I have a question or two. Does the vote on this change have to be unanimous? And if not, must every member school adhere to any new policy? I ask this because I have no idea if the administration at Georgetown would be on board with any further academic compromise for that relatively unimportant game...football. xrolleyesx

I think all school presidents need to be on board unanimousle, at least for all-sports members of the PL. Remember that includes Army, Navy, and American and the five that play football (Lehigh, Lafayette, Colgate, Holy Cross, Bucknell). But the reform will involve the ADs and admissions people hammering out what the policy will be and should be ratified by the presidents next June for 2009 recruiting. So Georgetown and Fordham (I'm pretty sure) will get their say in the process - especially for football, which at this point is seperate from the rest of the sports involved here.

All schools need to adhere to the AI, but when it comes to offering scholarships, that's an "option". In men's b-ball, schools were given the option to give scholarships if they wanted. Of course, every school eventually decided that they needed to have them if they wanted to field decent teams.

If they decided to offer scholarships in football, I would think it would be an "option" just like men's b-ball.

As I mentioned before, AI reform could potentially help Georgetown more than any other PL school.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I believe these are minimum guidelines to be followed in regard to AI-- each individual school can choose to set the admission bar higher.

You're right FT, my bad. Yes, the AI is the "minimum requirement", but admissions offices can choose to be more stringent. This apparently is the case at some PL schools.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

My question is: where are all the Holy Cross folks? One loss to Fordham and it's hoops, hoops, hoops... :D

[DetroitFlyer]

Perhaps the question to ask is does the PL even need an AI? It is obvious that the PL is diverging more and more from the Ivy model. Why continue the charade? If the AI were eliminated, do you honestly think that Holy Cross would run out and sign a bunch of kids that were way below the normal Holy Cross student? How about Lehigh? Do you really think that Fordham or Georgetown is going to put up with football players that play for a year or two and flunk out? These schools have worked hard to earn their academic reputations. I just do not see any of them risking their reputation by running an academically inferior football program. Even if they do, it would become obvious, and ultimately hurt the school's reputation. It seems to be an almost self correcting process.... I have to go back to Dayton. We graduate something like 94% to 96% of our football players. We produce more Academic All Americans than any FCS school, including the Ivy League and the Patriot League. To the best of my knowledge, admissions at Dayton are controlled by Dayton and not the PFL. Drake has different policies, as does San Diego as does Davidson, etc. For the most part, it seems to work OK.... OK except that the PFL does not have an autobid, while the PL does.... Maybe you just can't have everything? LOL!!

[Franks Tanks]

Perhaps the question to ask is does the PL even need an AI? It is obvious that the PL is diverging more and more from the Ivy model. Why continue the charade? If the AI were eliminated, do you honestly think that Holy Cross would run out and sign a bunch of kids that were way below the normal Holy Cross student? How about Lehigh? Do you really think that Fordham or Georgetown is going to put up with football players that play for a year or two and flunk out? These schools have worked hard to earn their academic reputations. I just do not see any of them risking their reputation by running an academically inferior football program. Even if they do, it would become obvious, and ultimately hurt the school's reputation. It seems to be an almost self correcting process.... I have to go back to Dayton. We graduate something like 94% to 96% of our football players. We produce more Academic All Americans than any FCS school, including the Ivy League and the Patriot League. To the best of my knowledge, admissions at Dayton are controlled by Dayton and not the PFL. Drake has different policies, as does San Diego as does Davidson, etc. For the most part, it seems to work OK.... OK except that the PFL does not have an autobid, while the PL does.... Maybe you just can't have everything? LOL!!

Ya the minimum's are mostly for Lehigh xeyebrowx. But seriously you make some interesting points. I think the new AI minimum will be such that it is lower than what the admission dept at all member schools will reasonably support anyway. It will be more if a de facto minimum I assume, with not all schools even using it all that often. What will be significant is getting those extra 3 or 4 kids a year that can really be difference makers that we will bend the rules for--but still not go below the minimum. Basically its just nice to have some flexibility, however I doubt there will be majpor changes of the academic performance of the recruits and teams.

[ngineer]

I wonder how the Ivies' recently announced change in giving grants versus loans will impact the final decision on going 'scholarship'...?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Perhaps the question to ask is does the PL even need an AI? It is obvious that the PL is diverging more and more from the Ivy model. Why continue the charade? If the AI were eliminated, do you honestly think that Holy Cross would run out and sign a bunch of kids that were way below the normal Holy Cross student? How about Lehigh? Do you really think that Fordham or Georgetown is going to put up with football players that play for a year or two and flunk out? These schools have worked hard to earn their academic reputations. I just do not see any of them risking their reputation by running an academically inferior football program. Even if they do, it would become obvious, and ultimately hurt the school's reputation. It seems to be an almost self correcting process....

The AI was something that was originally created by the Ivy League to make sure that their members were not admitting athletes that were not up to snuff academically - this was back in 1948. Love or hate it, that's why the PL has it. The PL (and Ivy League) can say the following: our league structure makes sure that all our athletes are representative of the incoming classes since we have this tool called the AI to make sure this is so". Dayton? Although they don't offer athletics-related aid, they theoretically could make exceptions if a kid is a great football player and he qualifies for other sorts of aid. There's nothing that says in the PFL that you can't admit athletes that are way out of line with the rest of the incoming class.

Having said all that (and sounding like a PL official in the process), could the PL get rid of the AI and still have high-academic classes? The answer is yes, and some folks debate this is possibly something to be done. The problem would be when a school then competes for the national championship. Let's say Lehigh makes it to Chattanooga. Lafayette fans could say, "They only made it because we think Ralph Runningback scored a 15 ACT score but somehow he got into Lehigh." With an AI, we know that Ralph Runningback doesn't have a 15 ACT score. Without one.. how do we know? We can get glimpses from self-studies or data on the incoming class in general. But you'll never get a list of ACT scores from each player. That's unfair, and stigmatizes that player. Not everyone who scores a 30 on the ACT is a good college student.

It's possible that "peer pressure" alone would keep schools in line, but with and AI you don't have to rely on that.

[LUHawker]

Perhaps the question to ask is does the PL even need an AI? It is obvious that the PL is diverging more and more from the Ivy model. Why continue the charade? If the AI were eliminated, do you honestly think that Holy Cross would run out and sign a bunch of kids that were way below the normal Holy Cross student? How about Lehigh? Do you really think that Fordham or Georgetown is going to put up with football players that play for a year or two and flunk out? These schools have worked hard to earn their academic reputations. I just do not see any of them risking their reputation by running an academically inferior football program. Even if they do, it would become obvious, and ultimately hurt the school's reputation. It seems to be an almost self correcting process.... I have to go back to Dayton. We graduate something like 94% to 96% of our football players. We produce more Academic All Americans than any FCS school, including the Ivy League and the Patriot League. To the best of my knowledge, admissions at Dayton are controlled by Dayton and not the PFL. Drake has different policies, as does San Diego as does Davidson, etc. For the most part, it seems to work OK.... OK except that the PFL does not have an autobid, while the PL does.... Maybe you just can't have everything? LOL!!

But for those last two comments, that was the most thoughtful comment I've ever read from you, DF. Maybe there is hope for you after all. xsmiley_wix I think the intent of the AI is to set some minimum standards to keep all of the schools honest. This prevents any, or all of the schools, from going down the slippery slope of letting in 1 or 2 marginal students and getting comfortable with it and then suddenly its 5 or 10 marginal students and so on.

In theory the self-regulating concept would work, but I've always found that "when someone is watching the store, less seems to get stolen'.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

A bit more info...

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com

I am hoping to get this into a CSN article very soon.

[Go...gate]

Interesting. The scholarship battle rages on. Plainly, this tweaking is done in hopes of having just enough "play" in academic standards to snag that elusive additional member and give the league membership a touch more common ground in regard to recruiting. But without football scholarships....

[carney2]

Any hint of transparency here? Will the reports of the schools to the League office become public information? Two of the problems with the current system are (1) if there are evil doers here they are allowed to hide; and (2) even if there are no evil doers, many people believe that there are - or that there must be. Any program that achieves some success is automatically assumed by some to be cheating on the AI.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Any hint of transparency here? Will the reports of the schools to the League office become public information? Two of the problems with the current system are (1) if there are evil doers here they are allowed to hide; and (2) even if there are no evil doers, many people believe that there are - or that there must be. Any program that achieves some success is automatically assumed by some to be cheating on the AI.

Both of these issues IMO are more of an issue in the Ivy League, but it's always going to be endemic in a league with a tool like the academic index with independent admissions departments. Suppose Qunicy Quarterback can't get through admissions at Georgetown, but appears on Bucknell's roster next year. Georgetown doesn't know what Bucknell's admissions department is considering - they just know he couldn't get through admissions at Georgetown. So of course they're going to look with a furtive glance at Bucknell.

Would a light on individual athletes be a useful exercise? Maybe, but more likely it would result in a food fight on academics that is (IMO) unfair to the kid who's admitted. Regular students don't have their academic numbers posted for the world to see - why should athletes? An aggregate for all of athletics, OK. But not person-by-person.