Which ex-FCS program made the biggest mistake by moving up or dropping the program?

[bonarae]

We often think of the ex-FCS teams who made a splash after they moved up, e.g. Marshall, JMU and App State. However, we often think of other programs whom we dearly miss in the FCS and currently living post-football lives, e.g., Boston U, Hofstra, etc.

Which ex-FCS program (who moved up or dropped) has made us scratching our heads, even many years after they did their homework as they could and moved on from our subdivision?

[gravalico]

We often think of the ex-FCS teams who made a splash after they moved up, e.g. Marshall, JMU and App State. However, we often think of other programs whom we dearly miss in the FCS and currently living post-football lives, e.g., Boston U, Hofstra, etc.

Which ex-FCS program (who moved up or dropped) has made us scratching our heads, even many years after they did their homework as they could and moved on from our subdivision?I honestly feel like any team that moves up in the Northeast is making a mistake. UConn and UMass leap to mind. I suspect there are spreadsheets on Athletic Director's computers that actually determine success. Who knows? Perhaps the revenues make it worthwhile. From purely a "fan interest" perspective, I think it has been proven that this part of the country just doesn't care enough about big time college football. Hell, even BC is a bit of a punch line that only raises eyebrows when they break five hundred.

I feel like Delaware is making the same mistake. I am not a fan of either team but I was always interested to see who won the Delaware vs. Nova game. It had a significant bearing on the football landscape in the Northeast. Delaware vs. Liberty? Not so much.

As for teams who drop their programs, BU remains the program I feel should still be there. That was a shame.

Sent from my SM-F711U using Tapatalk

[UNHWildcat18]

Personally I don't think BU, NU or HU made a mistake.

The city of Boston doesn't give a **** about football outside of The New England Patriots. They barely care enough about BC. BU and NU are hockey schools in a professional sports city.

Hofstra I think realized long island also doesn't care about Football.

Personally I wish UVM still had football. They have nothing going on besides UVM sports up in Burlington. I guess they have the Vermont Lake monsters baseball team.

Losing UD to FBS still stings. Another flagship university gone from UNH's schedule...

[NY Crusader 2010]

Personally I don't think BU, NU or HU made a mistake.

The city of Boston doesn't give a **** about football outside of The New England Patriots. They barely care enough about BC. BU and NU are hockey schools in a professional sports city.

Hofstra I think realized long island also doesn't care about Football.

Personally I wish UVM still had football. They have nothing going on besides UVM sports up in Burlington. I guess they have the Vermont Lake monsters baseball team.

Losing UD to FBS still stings. Another flagship university gone from UNH's schedule...

Disagree on this point. Although Hofstra has more of the vibe of an urban campus. I still think they made a mistake. They did recently launch a med school though, so perhaps they viewed football as a waste of resources.

Culturally, I don't think there's much of a thirst for a football team in Burlington.

Agree with you on NU, BU and Delaware. Northeastern was basically playing their home games at Brookline HS, but with Northeastern logos on the turf. BU -- see UVM. The administration and student body at BU likely have no interest in bringing back the program. BU football is a program with a lot of history though and played in a historic stadium. The grandstand there used to be a part of Braves Field. And from a Holy Cross perspective, I'd love to have a Boston football school in the Patriot League.

CAA losing UD to FBS definitely hurts.

[gravalico]

Personally I don't think BU, NU or HU made a mistake.

The city of Boston doesn't give a **** about football outside of The New England Patriots. They barely care enough about BC. BU and NU are hockey schools in a professional sports city.

Hofstra I think realized long island also doesn't care about Football.

Personally I wish UVM still had football. They have nothing going on besides UVM sports up in Burlington. I guess they have the Vermont Lake monsters baseball team.

Losing UD to FBS still stings. Another flagship university gone from UNH's schedule...God the trip up to Burlington though...yikes. Gorgeous though it is, it's a long lonely bus trip.

Sent from my SM-F711U using Tapatalk

[UNHWildcat18]

God the trip up to Burlington though...yikes. Gorgeous though it is, it's a long lonely bus trip.

Sent from my SM-F711U using Tapatalk

The international airport would definitely help over long bus rides. I know in reality UVM wouldn't have been able to keep up with the other Yankee teams, just would be nice to still play them in football.

[mainejeff]

The international airport would definitely help over long bus rides. I know in reality UVM wouldn't have been able to keep up with the other Yankee teams, just would be nice to still play them in football.

Yeah the only teams that would have been taking a bus would be the other New England teams and Albany......the same ones that do it in America East.

[Catamount87]

From a performance/record standpoint, one could argue that Georgia Southern may have made a mistake by moving up. They are 65-61 (.515) and 3-3 in bowls games since 2014 with 5 losing seasons compared to App State's 95-35 (.730) and 7-1 in bowls games and no losing seasons.

[ElCid]

From a performance/record standpoint, one could argue that Georgia Southern may have made a mistake by moving up. They are 65-61 (.515) and 3-3 in bowls games since 2014 with 5 losing seasons compared to App State's 95-35 (.730) and 7-1 in bowls games and no losing seasons.

Good point. For a laugh, go see Ursus's signature line. That explains a lot. Lol.

[MR. CHICKEN]

.........GEORGIA STATE...DUH AGS...ASS CLOWN....UH MOVE UPS.......IS 4-2 IN BOWLS.....xwhistlex.....AWK!

[clenz]

I honestly feel like any team that moves up in the Northeast is making a mistake.
I feel like Delaware is making the same mistake.

As for teams who drop their programs, BU remains the program I feel should still be there. That was a shame.

Sent from my SM-F711U using TapatalkThat sentence right there. The NE always seems strange in a college athletics sense to me. None of them are truly supported in a full way outside of a couple specific sports (Nova and UCONN basketball). Life in that area of the country as a college program is damned if you do and damned if you don't. UD is TBD but I don't think they make the same mistakes that UMASS did, which gives them a leg up.

For that same reason I don't think any of those that dropped the program made a mistake either. As time has gone on, and the increase in required support to remain competitive has accelerated, I think Boston and Northeastern would be struggling like crazy and be in super unstable situations just as we find most of the CAA football programs now where everyone is just moving to move and maybe a split is needed into multiple conferences, maybe it isn't, etc. Especially in the case of Boston with hockey. That was their #1 sport and football just kind of acted as a financial drag to hockey succeeding, in a way.

The Northeast just has so many times, so many small schools, and is so pro-sports heavy that colleges out there are stuck in their ability to truly compete with rare exceptions.

[clenz]

From a performance/record standpoint, one could argue that Georgia Southern may have made a mistake by moving up. They are 65-61 (.515) and 3-3 in bowls games since 2014 with 5 losing seasons compared to App State's 95-35 (.730) and 7-1 in bowls games and no losing seasons.
GSU lost Frtiz at a bad time.

Going through that transition and then leaning on a guy like Tyson Summers was never going to work - and I'm not sure he would have worked at the FCS level. They were not only transitioning from FCS to FBS but transitioning the identity of their program. Lundsford (IIRC) had them rolling a bi - with a long history at GSU - but he was poached and it fell apart under the interim. If Helton sticks around (but we know he won't if he has any success), I think they can be alright again. He had them in a bowl the last 2 years after Whitney, or whatever it is had them at like 2-9 before getting fired. 6-7 each of the last 2 years isn't great ,but considering what he took over it's okay. The SBC is greatly improved though, so it's not going to be easy. They were 6-2 before losing their last 5 this year. Don't know if the 6 were inflated or something fell apart late, but they have the ability to be a 8-10 win SBC team with the right leader.

[rhowdyram]

UMass is the big example. They shouldn't have moved up in the first place. If they were going to move up they should have made the move a decade earlier when the program was running well. They should have had massive stadium improvements ready to go if they were going to move up. They never should have played their first FBS games at Gillette, an hour and 45 minutes away from campus, but they had to because their stadium wasn't prepared to host FBS games. They shouldn't have hired Charley Molnar to be the head coach to start their FBS journey. They should have moved all sports to the MAC when they had a chance. They never should have gone independent. They shouldn't move to Conference USA now. Basically they have screwed the pooch every step of the way and almost every decision they make is the wrong one because they keep trying to fix a previous mistake instead of thinking about what will lead to success in the future.

[rhowdyram]

I honestly feel like any team that moves up in the Northeast is making a mistake. UConn and UMass leap to mind. I suspect there are spreadsheets on Athletic Director's computers that actually determine success. Who knows? Perhaps the revenues make it worthwhile. From purely a "fan interest" perspective, I think it has been proven that this part of the country just doesn't care enough about big time college football. Hell, even BC is a bit of a punch line that only raises eyebrows when they break five hundred.

I feel like Delaware is making the same mistake. I am not a fan of either team but I was always interested to see who won the Delaware vs. Nova game. It had a significant bearing on the football landscape in the Northeast. Delaware vs. Liberty? Not so much.

As for teams who drop their programs, BU remains the program I feel should still be there. That was a shame.

Sent from my SM-F711U using Tapatalk

To me UConn didn't make a mistake moving up. How many schools were/are in a position to go right from 1AA/FCS to a BCS/Power 4/5 conference and are handed a $91 million dollar stadium?

Looking back, having the stadium 30 minutes from campus hurts them, they've made some very bad coaching decisions, they've had bad conference luck with all of the moving around, and I think becoming an independent to move all the other sports to the Big East was a mistake, but in the moment that decision to move up is completely defensible and I'm not sure you'd make a different decision even in hindsight.

[Mocs123]

From a performance/record standpoint, one could argue that Georgia Southern may have made a mistake by moving up. They are 65-61 (.515) and 3-3 in bowls games since 2014 with 5 losing seasons compared to App State's 95-35 (.730) and 7-1 in bowls games and no losing seasons.

App was ready financially to make the jump to FBS, I don't think Ga Southern was - I think they jumped on the ship when they had the chance but weren't ready.

And not that they've ever cared about anything other than football, but their basketball team is 0-12.

[JacksFan40]

In terms of on field results it’s obviously UMass. They’re 24-112 since moving up in 2012, have never appeared in a bowl, and have never been better than 4-8. They were a usually solid FCS team but are now at the absolute bottom of the barrel in the FBS. They don’t even have a conference, their football program only exists to cash checks from the money games against the P5. Their FBS tenure makes Idaho’s look great by comparison. At least Idaho made it to and won some bowls.

Outside of that I wouldn’t say anyone truly made a mistake by moving up. All of them have had varying degrees of success at the FBS level. Charlotte was maybe a mistake but they were never truly FCS. Time can only tell with Sam Houston, and soon Delaware and Kennesaw.

[DFW HOYA]

Don't forget Winston-Salem State, a former FCS team. They moved up from the CIAA, ran out of money, than went back to Division II.

Still, the only college football team that plays on a sanctioned NASCAR short track: Bowman Gray Stadium:

https://www.nascar.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/7/2022/04/19/Whelen63.jpg
.

[Go...gate]

Personally I don't think BU, NU or HU made a mistake.

The city of Boston doesn't give a **** about football outside of The New England Patriots. They barely care enough about BC. BU and NU are hockey schools in a professional sports city.

Hofstra I think realized long island also doesn't care about Football.

Personally I wish UVM still had football. They have nothing going on besides UVM sports up in Burlington. I guess they have the Vermont Lake monsters baseball team.

Losing UD to FBS still stings. Another flagship university gone from UNH's schedule...

Disagree strenuously on BU and Hofstra.

[UNHWildcat18]

Disagree strenuously on BU and Hofstra.

Interest was low, money was tight. I don’t they’d be doing well at all if they kept it. They could barely field a decent team then. How’s SBU doing? They’ve been bragging they should be FBS with a 25k stadium for years…

[mmiller_34]

Who could forget the third wheel in this D-II — > FCS transition?

SDSU
NDSU
Northern Colorado

All three came from the old NCC and founded the GWFC.

I think UNC may have been better off staying put.

[NY Crusader 2010]

.........GEORGIA STATE...DUH AGS...ASS CLOWN....UH MOVE UPS.......IS 4-2 IN BOWLS.....xwhistlex.....AWK!

Georgia State was something like 1-15 in 2 years in the CAA. I think they beat URI once and that was it. And then they've moved up, and done well in FBS for the most part.

[bonarae]

Do you think Kennesaw State was "forced" to move up like Georgia State and UMass also did?

[Go Green]

To me UConn didn't make a mistake moving up. How many schools were/are in a position to go right from 1AA/FCS to a BCS/Power 4/5 conference and are handed a $91 million dollar stadium?

Looking back, having the stadium 30 minutes from campus hurts them, they've made some very bad coaching decisions, they've had bad conference luck with all of the moving around, and I think becoming an independent to move all the other sports to the Big East was a mistake, but in the moment that decision to move up is completely defensible and I'm not sure you'd make a different decision even in hindsight.

This.

if UConn made a "mistake" because they didn't foresee that the Big East would implode in football some fifteen years later... that's demanding a lot of the decision makers.

I suppose the one regrettable move UConn made was suing BC from leaving the Big East. Story I've heard repeatedly is that BC intentionally blocked UConn from joining the ACC as revenge. Who knows how it would have played out otherwise?

[Catamount87]

App was ready financially to make the jump to FBS, I don't think Ga Southern was - I think they jumped on the ship when they had the chance but weren't ready.

And not that they've ever cared about anything other than football, but their basketball team is 0-12.

Pretty much that was the opinion of many people outside of GSU, they weren't ready financially. Whereas App was very well prepared. As I recall, a lot of folks also felt GSU was pulling a "me too" move. I wouldn't be surprised if behind the scenes the Sun Belt was telling App that they needed to convince GSU to move up too.

[Catamount87]

Do you think Kennesaw State was "forced" to move up like Georgia State and UMass also did?

I am pretty sure that answer is No. Go back to them starting football and they wanted in to SoCon but had to settle for the Big South. I had two SoCon ADs at the time tell me the SoCon said no because two things were clear, 1) KSU intended to move to FBS as soon as they could and 2) their enrollment and ability to generate athletic fees well above the rest of the SoCon would give them a massive financial advantage.

[KnightoftheRedFlash]

Any school that dropped football made a mistake!

[DFW HOYA]

Any school that dropped football made a mistake!

is there any Division I school that dropped football and became a better athletic program as a result? Can't think of any.

[Go Green]

is there any Division I school that dropped football and became a better athletic program as a result? Can't think of any.

St. Mary's kind of sort of fit this bill for a while.

[DFW HOYA]

St. Mary's kind of sort of fit this bill for a while.

Not as an athletic program. Finished 223rd of 261 schools in the NACDA/Learfield Cup, just ahead of Alabama State

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Not as an athletic program. Finished 223rd of 261 schools in the NACDA/Learfield Cup, just ahead of Alabama State

Success is defined in various ways. In terms of the publicity, basketball has brought St. Mary's (especially their rivalry with Gonzaga) a significant amount of notoriety. The only reason St. Mary's was part of my conscious prior to their winning ways under Bennett is the fact Lehigh traveled to Moraga in 1998 to play them in football. They made the trip to Bethlehem in 2003 which proved to be their final season.

[Go Green]

if memory serves, Penn had to scramble to find an alternative opponent on short notice when St. Mary's dropped football. I think they ended up playing Duquesne.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I am surprised to this day Hofstra dropped football. They had some good D3 and 1-AA teams from the mid 1980s through the mid-2000s, produced several NFL players, and had a nice facility. Plus, as far as Long Island goes, Hofstra was pretty easy to get to.

I will always have a soft spot for La Salle. Their demise came soon after I graduated from Temple. I got to know several players as my high school friend was in a fraternity (Delta Sig) with a lot of them. The Explores had a reasonable stadium in the middle of campus that was home to some epic Philly Catholic League battles.

[gravalico]

I am surprised to this day Hofstra dropped football. They had some good D3 and 1-AA teams from the mid 1980s through the mid-2000s, produced several NFL players, and had a nice facility. Plus, as far as Long Island goes, Hofstra was pretty easy to get to.

I will always have a soft spot for La Salle. Their demise came soon after I graduated from Temple. I got to know several players as my high school friend was in a fraternity (Delta Sig) with a lot of them. The Explores had a reasonable stadium in the middle of campus that was home to some epic Philly Catholic League battles.One of my less than pleasant memories was having our (Lafayette) ass handed to us by a Wayne Chrebet-led Hofstra team in 1991. That game couldn't end quickly enough.

On the pleasant memory side, I remember fondly taking part in some epic Philadelphia Catholic League battles in high-school. Go Carroll Patriots!

Sent from my SM-F711U using Tapatalk

[Mocs123]

Not as an athletic program. Finished 223rd of 261 schools in the NACDA/Learfield Cup, just ahead of Alabama State

There are a few ways to look at that - Sure you can look at the every sport that a school sponsors, but to 99.9% of people - all they care about is football and men's basketball. Some schools also have good support for WBB, Baseball, or softball. I know there are some northern schools where Hockey is king - but I don't know anything about that. The point is, nobody besides parents and a very niche group is going to care how the Men's Tennis team did, or the Women's Beach Volleyball team did, or Women's Golf, Cross Country, etc. In most cases those sports exist to schools meet the minimum number of varsity sports and meet Title IX requirements.

So, if you look at all Sports, St. Mary's may not have done well (to be honest, I don't know much about St. Mary's), but my guess is they pour all of their resources into MBB and everything else is there because it has to be. So if St. Mary's increased the quality of their MBB program by dropping FB and brought more attention to the school, etc - it could be a positive. Personally, I think any sport is worth having only if you fund it and provide it enough resources to be successful - I don't mean you have to win 80% of your games every year, but nobody wants to watch any team that wins 20% of their games or less year after year - it doesn't matter what the sport is.

[Go...gate]

Interest was low, money was tight. I don’t they’d be doing well at all if they kept it. They could barely field a decent team then. How’s SBU doing? They’ve been bragging they should be FBS with a 25k stadium for years…

With regard to Hofstra, I believe the Patriot League bears some responsibility. Hofstra really wanted in to the PL and the PL kind of accepted the gestures of interest in the early to mid-1990s and then said no for reasons that remain unclear thirty years later. I know that Hofstra's administration felt a bit jilted. IMO, it was a damn shame. The school was agreeable on scholarship issues and had some synergies with the rest of the conference.

BU's decision to drop football was largely driven by its President, but that is another story.

[bonarae]

BU's decision to drop football was largely driven by its President, but that is another story.

Any books written about this a la Stagg's University (Robin Lester)? Or other books directly targeted at the dropping of football in colleges throughout history, like the book I mentioned in this post?

Hofstra's president (he still is there today sadly) I think copied Silber's approach.

Of course, don't forget the Pacific California Tigers. xsmhx (They were never FCS but they dropped football for good in 1996.)

[MR. CHICKEN]

Any books written about this a la Stagg's University (Robin Lester)? Or other books directly targeted at the dropping of football in colleges throughout history, like the book I mentioned in this post?

Hofstra's president (he still is there today sadly) I think copied Silber's approach.

Of course, don't forget the Pacific California Tigers. xsmhx (They were never FCS but they dropped football for good in 1996.)


33247

.........HOFSTRA'S...PREZ....THOUGHT IT MO' IMPORTANT....TA TURN OUT DOCTORS.....THAN NFL'ers.......SO FOOTBALL ALLOWANCES....WENT TA HELP.....START DUH MEDICAL SKOOL........BRAWK!

....IT'S ALL IN WIKI.....LADS.......AWK!

[Go...gate]

33247

.........HOFSTRA'S...PREZ....THOUGHT IT MO' IMPORTANT....TA TURN OUT DOCTORS.....THAN NFL'ers.......SO FOOTBALL ALLOWANCES....WENT TA HELP.....START DUH MEDICAL SKOOL........BRAWK!

....IT'S ALL IN WIKI.....LADS.......AWK!

Makes sense. Hofstra already had a very good law school.

[Grizzlies82]

Who could forget the third wheel in this D-II — > FCS transition?

SDSU
NDSU
Northern Colorado

All three came from the old NCC and founded the GWFC.

I think UNC may have been better off staying put.



This is rather like one of those toddler's games: "Which one of these doesn't belong with the others?"

I think I know the answer...
They play in the equivalent of a High School stadium.
I'm not sure if they have ever had a winning season since moving up.
They were brought into the Big Sky as a means of involving the Denver TV market. Yeah, right. xlolx

[Gangtackle11]

Delaware……check back here in 3 years or so when they are tired of sending all their athletic programs to Ruston, El Paso, Bowling Green, Las Cruces, etc. When they wonder why the stadium isnt full to see Sam Houston on a Tuesday night in October….xpeacex

[MR. CHICKEN]

Delaware……check back here in 3 years or so when they are tired of sending all their athletic programs to Ruston, El Paso, Bowling Green, Las Cruces, etc. When they wonder why the stadium isnt full to see Sam Houston on a Tuesday night in October….xpeacex



....ARE YOU & SITTIN' BULL.....DUH SAME GUY?..............xdeadhorsex...............AWK?

[Gangtackle11]

....ARE YOU & SITTIN' BULL.....DUH SAME GUY?..............xdeadhorsex...............AWK?

Could be….CarribeanHen thinks I have Monmouth roots……You guys need to compare notes. xpeacex

[JSUSoutherner]

Do you think Kennesaw State was "forced" to move up like Georgia State and UMass also did?
Kennesaw wasn't forced to move, they just have a bad case of little brother syndrome.

Also, Id like to throw SHSUs name on the watchlist for the biggest flop.

[BigBlueMU]

is there any Division I school that dropped football and became a better athletic program as a result? Can't think of any.

St Peters? I know bit of a stretch but it's the only one I can think of.

[smilo]

I don't want to prematurely say Sam Houston, but many people here had doubts at the time that they could be successful at the FBS level. Even in that wretched conference, they struggled whereas Jacksonville State was able to adapt despite being worse at the FCS level (a la Liberty).

I hope their program turns it around, but they may have been built for FCS more than anyone. So much like an Eastern Washington.

[Professor Chaos]

I don't want to prematurely say Sam Houston, but many people here had doubts at the time that they could be successful at the FBS level. Even in that wretched conference, they struggled whereas Jacksonville State was able to adapt despite being worse at the FCS level (a la Liberty).

I hope their program turns it around, but they may have been built for FCS more than anyone. So much like an Eastern Washington.
I'll be interested to see the 2023 athletic revenue numbers for Sam Houston when USA Today updates them this summer. If you look at their 2022 numbers I don't see any way they're sustainable at the FBS level: https://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/finances/227881

$300k in total ticket revenue - barely over $1M in contributions... these are below average by FCS standards much less FBS. They're going to have to fleece their students with fees or raid the school's general fund to get up to a competitive athletic budget for FBS.

[NY Crusader 2010]

St Peters? I know bit of a stretch but it's the only one I can think of.

You mean they got lucky and had a psycho conference tourney and then NCAA run after pretty much a .500 season in the MAAC?

Before that run, the St. Peter's gym was basically crumbling so it's not like the savings from not spending on football helped much. The March Madness $$$ did, however.

[NY Crusader 2010]

is there any Division I school that dropped football and became a better athletic program as a result? Can't think of any.

Go Green mentioned St. Mary's already. That's probably the best answer. You could also argue Pacific, at least for a short time. A case could be made for Iona as well.

Wichita State dropped football in the late 1980's. Hard to correlate that with their Men's Basketball glory days that came 20+ years later.

BU? No.
Hofstra? No.
Northeastern? Maybe marginally but I think the departure of VCU, ODU and Mason from the CAA has been a bigger factor
LaSalle? No
St. John's? Absolutely not.
Fairfield? No
Siena? They were immediately very good right after dropping football but have been very mediocre since.

[wapiti]

Idaho
But they realized the mistake and came back to FCS

[Baron Sardonicus]

Not as an athletic program. Finished 223rd of 261 schools in the NACDA/Learfield Cup, just ahead of Alabama State

Really tragic to see the Gaels drop the sport. It seems that football became a scapegoat for the many financial mistakes (https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/MORAGA-Phony-donor-duped-St-Mary-s-in-big-scam-2687208.php) SMC made around the time football was cut.

The team had the rough equivalent of 15 scholarship players...and they joined Great West football?!? WTF

Should have become a member of the Pioneer, saved some money, and (to twist DFW Hoya's signature) played where they could actually compete.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Really tragic to see the Gaels drop the sport. It seems that football became a scapegoat for the many financial mistakes (https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/MORAGA-Phony-donor-duped-St-Mary-s-in-big-scam-2687208.php) SMC made around the time football was cut.

The team had the rough equivalent of 15 scholarship players...and they joined Great West football?!? WTF

Should have become a member of the Pioneer, saved some money, and (to twist DFW Hoya's signature) played where they could actually compete.

The Great West...blast from the past. If I recall that league was made up of the 4 Dakota schools, Northern Colorado, UC-Davis and Cal Poly. Didn't remember that St. Mary's was around long enough to be in it but I guess they were. Did the league stay around long enough to have an NCAA bid? The first Dakota school I remember going to the playoffs was SDSU against Montana in 2009 but I can't remember if that was before or after the Missouri Valley Football Conference was formed. Prior to that you had the mighty Gateway!

[Baron Sardonicus]

SMC joined but dropped football before the season started.

[clenz]

The Great West...blast from the past. If I recall that league was made up of the 4 Dakota schools, Northern Colorado, UC-Davis and Cal Poly. Didn't remember that St. Mary's was around long enough to be in it but I guess they were. Did the league stay around long enough to have an NCAA bid? The first Dakota school I remember going to the playoffs was SDSU against Montana in 2009 but I can't remember if that was before or after the Missouri Valley Football Conference was formed. Prior to that you had the mighty Gateway!
09 was MVFC.

The last year the league was known as the Gateway was 2007.

The DSU's joined in 08 and the name was changed to the MVFC.

Gateway Athletic Conference 85-91
Gateway Football Conference 92-07
Missouri Valley Football Conference 2008-present

The Gateway was a women's only athletic conference that started in 1982. It added football in 1985 as part of the realignment that happened from "small and large college" set up previously. The womens teams in the Gateway were Bradley, Drake, EIU, ISUR, ISUB, UNI, SIU, MOSU, WIU, and Wichita State - so basically the MVC and then MidCon teams that had football.

Starting with the 1992 year the MVC absorbed the Gateway Athletic Conference and added women's sports as an official league run thing. That included taking over the Gateway football side of things, which they renamed the Gateway Football Conference. Then there was a big thing leading up to 08 about wanting to unify the name and make it more nationally recognizable with the MVC branding, which no one outside of the league office liked and causes issues/rifts to this day.

1985-present members
ISUR
MOSO
UNI
SIU

ISUB joined in 1986
YSU joined in 1997
NDSU joined in 2008
SDSU joined in 2008
USD joined in 2012
UND joined in 2020
MUSU joined in 2023

EIU was a member from 1985-1995
WKU was a member 2001-2007

1985 was a weird year. The MVC sponsored football for it's final year and everyone played a hybrid A/AA schedule. ISU, ISU, Wichita, SIU, Drake, and then West Texas and Tulsa were in the league. ISU ISU and SIU were also Gateway members with UNI and WIU who were MidCon. It was wild. 1986 saw Tulsa go their way, ISU, ISU, SIU joined the Gateway. WSU dropped, Drake went D3 from 1A. The 1980-1986 time period was wild.


So, also, since I brought it up

WSU dropped football and has done pretty damn well for themselves. Though, not having football does help them back in terms of moving from the MVC to the AAC and getting a full share and/or getting a MWC/B12 look at any point. But if they'd have had football for the last 40 years who knows how it would work out for them. They'd probably be right there with the rest of the Gateway schools from that time.

[NY Crusader 2010]

09 was MVFC.

The last year the league was known as the Gateway was 2007.

The DSU's joined in 08 and the name was changed to the MVFC.

Gateway Athletic Conference 85-91
Gateway Football Conference 92-07
Missouri Valley Football Conference 2008-present

The Gateway was a women's only athletic conference that started in 1982. It added football in 1985 as part of the realignment that happened from "small and large college" set up previously. The womens teams in the Gateway were Bradley, Drake, EIU, ISUR, ISUB, UNI, SIU, MOSU, WIU, and Wichita State - so basically the MVC and then MidCon teams that had football.

Starting with the 1992 year the MVC absorbed the Gateway Athletic Conference and added women's sports as an official league run thing. That included taking over the Gateway football side of things, which they renamed the Gateway Football Conference. Then there was a big thing leading up to 08 about wanting to unify the name and make it more nationally recognizable with the MVC branding, which no one outside of the league office liked and causes issues/rifts to this day.

1985-present members
ISUR
MOSO
UNI
SIU

ISUB joined in 1986
YSU joined in 1997
NDSU joined in 2008
SDSU joined in 2008
USD joined in 2012
UND joined in 2020
MUSU joined in 2023

EIU was a member from 1985-1995
WKU was a member 2001-2007

1985 was a weird year. The MVC sponsored football for it's final year and everyone played a hybrid A/AA schedule. ISU, ISU, Wichita, SIU, Drake, and then West Texas and Tulsa were in the league. ISU ISU and SIU were also Gateway members with UNI and WIU who were MidCon. It was wild. 1986 saw Tulsa go their way, ISU, ISU, SIU joined the Gateway. WSU dropped, Drake went D3 from 1A. The 1980-1986 time period was wild.


So, also, since I brought it up

WSU dropped football and has done pretty damn well for themselves. Though, not having football does help them back in terms of moving from the MVC to the AAC and getting a full share and/or getting a MWC/B12 look at any point. But if they'd have had football for the last 40 years who knows how it would work out for them. They'd probably be right there with the rest of the Gateway schools from that time.

I mentioned WSU above. Who knows if there's any direct correlation between dropping football and their overall success in MBB. They dropped football in '86 and their big NCAA runs that put them on the map started around 2005. They may have been very good before but that's when they became a national name.

A few years back, there was some discussion that WSU was looking into the idea of re-starting football but I think it's because they were worried that opportunities to move up in conference realignment would be contingent on this. However, they were able to get into the AAC anyway was the only non-football member so they're happy for now. Historically, the state of Kansas has not been an easy place to develop a long-term winner in major college football. Kansas State has changed that narrative to extent since the mid-1990's but KU has managed a couple of one-year wonder type of seasons and that's it.

[SDFS]

The Great West...blast from the past. If I recall that league was made up of the 4 Dakota schools, Northern Colorado, UC-Davis and Cal Poly. Didn't remember that St. Mary's was around long enough to be in it but I guess they were. Did the league stay around long enough to have an NCAA bid? The first Dakota school I remember going to the playoffs was SDSU against Montana in 2009 but I can't remember if that was before or after the Missouri Valley Football Conference was formed. Prior to that you had the mighty Gateway!

Great West Football Conference had the following:

2004 - Announced as a 7 team conference

St. Marys - dropped football 6 months prior to start of first season.
UNC - last season 2005 - left for Big Sky
NDSU - last season 2007 - left for MVFC
SDSU - last season 2007 - left for MVFC
Cal Poly- last season 2011 - left for Big Sky
UC Davis- last season 2011 - left for Big Sky
Southern Utah- last season 2011 - left for Big Sky
UND joined in 2008 - last season 2011 - left for Big Sky
USD joined in 2008 - last season 2011 - left for MVFC

Regular Season Champions Record
2004 Cal Poly 4–1
2005 Cal Poly and UC Davis 4–1
2006 North Dakota State 4–0
2007 South Dakota State 4–0
2008 Cal Poly 3–0
2009 UC Davis 3–1
2010 Southern Utah 4–0
2011 North Dakota and Cal Poly 3–1

Here is what the Fargo Media had to say about St. Mary's:

That brings us to St. Mary's College in Moraga, Calif., located east of the Bay Area. The school didn't exactly organize a victory parade concerning Wednesday's announcement. It's doubtful the head football coach was wearing a Great West Football Conference hat. It's the only school of the seven that didn't schedule a news conference. Nothing about the new league is mentioned on the school Web site. The local newspaper, the Costa Contra Times, carried only a Wednesday story that had the following headline: "Gaels hesitant on conference affiliation."
Rich Davi, the sports information director, said St. Mary's "has not formally announced" its affiliation with the league. "We're in a holding pattern until the Board of Trustees reviews certain information," he said. He didn't know when the matter will be addressed.

It's curious. You have to wonder if getting the OK from the Board of Trustees is just a formality or if the other six put St. Mary's on the league letterhead based on an educated guess it will join. Perhaps the private school is running on a different administrative agenda than the public schools.

What we do know is NDSU will play at St. Mary's on Nov. 20 -- its second trip to California in three weeks. What we don't know is if it will be a Great West Football Conference game.

[uni88]

I mentioned WSU above. Who knows if there's any direct correlation between dropping football and their overall success in MBB. They dropped football in '86 and their big NCAA runs that put them on the map started around 2005. They may have been very good before but that's when they became a national name.

A few years back, there was some discussion that WSU was looking into the idea of re-starting football but I think it's because they were worried that opportunities to move up in conference realignment would be contingent on this. However, they were able to get into the AAC anyway was the only non-football member so they're happy for now. Historically, the state of Kansas has not been an easy place to develop a long-term winner in major college football. Kansas State has changed that narrative to extent since the mid-1990's but KU has managed a couple of one-year wonder type of seasons and that's it.

WSU beat Kansas and went to the Elite 8 in 1981 with Cliff Levingston and Antoine Carr (both top NBA draft picks), Xavier McDaniel joined the team the following year and later led the nation in scoring & rebounding.

[KnightoftheRedFlash]

St Peters? I know bit of a stretch but it's the only one I can think of.

St. Peter's is terrible in their sports.

A fluke tournament run doesn't change the overall awfulness.

[clenz]

St. Peter's is terrible in their sports.

A fluke tournament run doesn't change the overall awfulness.
Even in that fluke run they were absolutely terrible that season and just managed to catch the most lightning in a bottle possible. They were 14-11 at the end of the regular season. Hell, with 4 gamse to go in the regular season they were 10-11. They won 12 games between Feb 25 and Mar 27, which is more wins than they had all season up until Feb 25. They didn't win a game agaisnt a D1 team outside of the MAAC until the NCAA tournament.

Their basketball program in the 16 seasons post football being dropped is almost 100% identical to the 16 seasons leadiig up to it being dropped, outside of that stupid 1 month run.

[Shockerman]

WSU basketball was putrid after dropping football for 25 years. One of the things that hasn't been mentioned is campus life. After football was dropped at WSU, falls became depressing and campus life took a nose dive. We have finally recovered somewhat thanks to a former President Barta, but it's still an issue.

Where WSU dropped the ball was not going to FCS or D1AA back in 1986 due to a massive little brother ego. We would have thrived in the Gateway and then MVFC. There are no FCS programs in Oklahoma, Kansas, and Nebraska. Prior to SDSU and NDSU, the whole area was completely under recruited and a pile of thesw kids went to JUCO and then on to FBS somewhere.

As for the future, things look pretty bleak for footballs return. As long as the AAC lets us stay without it, we aren't going to add it. Who knows what happens in a post P4 split though? Some of us still have a little hope!

[DFW HOYA]

WSU basketball was putrid after dropping football for 25 years. One of the things that hasn't been mentioned is campus life. After football was dropped at WSU, falls became depressing and campus life took a nose dive. We have finally recovered somewhat thanks to a former President Barta, but it's still an issue.

The Wheatshockers would be an AAC football program today had they stayed.

[bonarae]

WSU basketball was putrid after dropping football for 25 years. One of the things that hasn't been mentioned is campus life. After football was dropped at WSU, falls became depressing and campus life took a nose dive. We have finally recovered somewhat thanks to a former President Barta, but it's still an issue.

Where WSU dropped the ball was not going to FCS or D1AA back in 1986 due to a massive little brother ego. We would have thrived in the Gateway and then MVFC. There are no FCS programs in Oklahoma, Kansas, and Nebraska. Prior to SDSU and NDSU, the whole area was completely under recruited and a pile of thesw kids went to JUCO and then on to FBS somewhere.

As for the future, things look pretty bleak for footballs return. As long as the AAC lets us stay without it, we aren't going to add it. Who knows what happens in a post P4 split though? Some of us still have a little hope!

Meanwhile, are you guys the Midwestern version of BU or Northeastern? After those two Boston schools dropped football, they are now thriving in ice hockey... xsighx

[NY Crusader 2010]

The Wheatshockers would be an AAC football program today had they stayed.

That's true now. Had they not dropped football in 1986, they would've ended up in the Big West and then maybe even the Sun Belt (Idaho and NMSU were there) or the WAC in it's waning years. Had they hypothetically re-started the program from scratch in let's say 2005, chances are they would've launched as a I-AA in the Gateway and then the MVFC before moving up to the AAC with their recent invite. I think they would've been a very good FCS program had they done this. If they re-started football in the last 10 years, it would've been a Charlotte type move. A couple years as a transitional FCS indy before going into the AAC. There was talk that Wichita would re-start football IF the AAC required it for entry...but they found a way to get in without it, and are currently the only non-football member. Last year there were rumblings that the AAC and VCU were talking as well FWIW.

I kind of understand WSU dropping football in 1986. The history of major college football in the state of Kansas is absolutely putrid. Kansas State was probably the worst power conference program in America until the Bill Snyder era started in the mid-1990's. And Kansas has always been a laughingstock in my lifetime minus a couple blips. But I agree with Shockerman that WSU could've had an opportunity to be a real bull in a china shop as a I-AA team.

[OhioHen]

Meanwhile, are you guys the Midwestern version of BU or Northeastern? After those two Boston schools dropped football, they are now thriving in ice hockey... xsighx
They were both very good hockey programs while they still had football. Football never had a chance because of the money spent on hockey, even when they had both.

[NY Crusader 2010]

They were both very good hockey programs while they still had football. Football never had a chance because of the money spent on hockey, even when they had both.

I couldn't tell if bonarae was joking or not. Yes, both were great hockey programs prior to schools' dropping football. BU doesn't have baseball either.

FWIW, there are only 3 non-Ivy's who play all of the following: FCS Football, M/W Lacrosse, Baseball/Softball, M/W Hockey

Those 3 schools are => Sacred Heart, Merrimack and Holy Cross

[clenz]

WSU basketball was putrid after dropping football for 25 years. One of the things that hasn't been mentioned is campus life. After football was dropped at WSU, falls became depressing and campus life took a nose dive. We have finally recovered somewhat thanks to a former President Barta, but it's still an issue.

Where WSU dropped the ball was not going to FCS or D1AA back in 1986 due to a massive little brother ego. We would have thrived in the Gateway and then MVFC. There are no FCS programs in Oklahoma, Kansas, and Nebraska. Prior to SDSU and NDSU, the whole area was completely under recruited and a pile of thesw kids went to JUCO and then on to FBS somewhere.

As for the future, things look pretty bleak for footballs return. As long as the AAC lets us stay without it, we aren't going to add it. Who knows what happens in a post P4 split though? Some of us still have a little hope!
I mean Missouri State is down there - having dumped more money into facilities, recruiting, coaches, etc. than anyone in the Valley outside of the Dakota State's over the last 7 years since the mid 80s and it has gotten the absolutely **** all.

I think you are greatly underestimating the Gateway/Valley


Which isn't shocking coming from a Shocker gievn their general view on the MVC.

[OhioHen]

I couldn't tell if bonarae was joking or not. Yes, both were great hockey programs prior to schools' dropping football. BU doesn't have baseball either.

FWIW, there are only 3 non-Ivy's who play all of the following: FCS Football, M/W Lacrosse, Baseball/Softball, M/W Hockey

Those 3 schools are => Sacred Heart, Merrimack and Holy Cross
Delaware's move out of FCS and the introduction of Women's Ice Hockey as an NCAA sport are timed such that they can't claim the same distinction.

[DFW HOYA]

I couldn't tell if bonarae was joking or not. Yes, both were great hockey programs prior to schools' dropping football. BU doesn't have baseball either.
FWIW, there are only 3 non-Ivy's who play all of the following: FCS Football, M/W Lacrosse, Baseball/Softball, M/W Hockey
Those 3 schools are => Sacred Heart, Merrimack and Holy Cross

Only because NCAA ice hockey is rarely seen south of Interstate 70.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Delaware's move out of FCS and the introduction of Women's Ice Hockey as an NCAA sport are timed such that they can't claim the same distinction.

Would need Men's and Women's Hockey to have the distinction. UMass-Amherst would have claimed the same distinction before going FBS. Hard to believe it's been almost 15 years since they made the jump. Time really flies.

I didn't even hear about UD adding Women's Hockey. Do they still draw really well for WBB? I remember they did but wasn't sure if it was a passing fad when Del Donne played there. Famously she turned down a scholarship at UConn to play close to home at Delaware in order to take care of a disabled family member.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Only because NCAA ice hockey is rarely seen south of Interstate 70.

Very true. Unless you count Arizona State or Miami (OH) as being "south", literally there's no one south of Princeton with Men's DI hockey. Alabama-Huntsville had it and dropped maybe 10 years ago?

Even amongst non-Ivy schools in the mid-Atlantic and New England it's still pretty rare to have the entire combination of sports I specified. A lot of DI schools for only 3 to sponsor all those sports.

[Pards Rule]

UMASS

[OhioHen]

Would need Men's and Women's Hockey to have the distinction. UMass-Amherst would have claimed the same distinction before going FBS. Hard to believe it's been almost 15 years since they made the jump. Time really flies.

I didn't even hear about UD adding Women's Hockey. Do they still draw really well for WBB? I remember they did but wasn't sure if it was a passing fad when Del Donne played there. Famously she turned down a scholarship at UConn to play close to home at Delaware in order to take care of a disabled family member.
Forgot about UD Men's Hockey being on the club side, with some success. Women have been successful as a club team and are moving to varsity status for 2025-26 season. They'll be in the CHA

[Shockerman]

I mean Missouri State is down there - having dumped more money into facilities, recruiting, coaches, etc. than anyone in the Valley outside of the Dakota State's over the last 7 years since the mid 80s and it has gotten the absolutely **** all.

I think you are greatly underestimating the Gateway/Valley


Which isn't shocking coming from a Shocker gievn their general view on the MVC.

Despite the $$$, Briggs stadium is still a dump and is one of the few college football programs on the planet that makes WSU's history in the sport look good. I do think that Mo State is one of the few programs left in FCS that is a sleeping giant though. If and when they get that football program off the ground, the Bears are beyond a perfect fit for the Sun Belt. The regional tie ins with Louisiana, Texas State, and Arkansas State would transform their brand. First things first though...gotta actually win.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Despite the $$$, Briggs stadium is still a dump and is one of the few college football programs on the planet that makes WSU's history in the sport look good. I do think that Mo State is one of the few programs left in FCS that is a sleeping giant though. If and when they get that football program off the ground, the Bears are beyond a perfect fit for the Sun Belt. The regional tie ins with Louisiana, Texas State, and Arkansas State would transform their brand. First things first though...gotta actually win.

Or CUSA. The cool thing about being able to get promoted from FCS to FBS is that you don't always have to actually be a good football program. You just need to have to be a big state school in the right geographic location and be willing to spend a bunch of money.

[DFW HOYA]

Or CUSA. The cool thing about being able to get promoted from FCS to FBS is that you don't always have to actually be a good football program. You just need to have to be a big state school in the right geographic location and be willing to spend a bunch of money.

You don't even have to be a big state school. For these schools, it takes three things:

1. Add 22 scholarships;
2. Secure state appropriations and student fees to support travel; and
3. Booster support for the difference.

Why do they do it? Certainly not to win national titles. In the end, it gets them enrollment and heightened support from their state legislature for capital funding.

[MSUBobcat]

Very true. Unless you count Arizona State or Miami (OH) as being "south", literally there's no one south of Princeton with Men's DI hockey. Alabama-Huntsville had it and dropped maybe 10 years ago?

Even amongst non-Ivy schools in the mid-Atlantic and New England it's still pretty rare to have the entire combination of sports I specified. A lot of DI schools for only 3 to sponsor all those sports.

As one of the board's only NCAA hockey fans, that's not exactly accurate. Ohio State, Miami, Denver, Air Force, CC, and newly added Arizona State and Lindenwood are all south of Princeton (7 out of 64 D-I teams). Of those, OSU and Lindenwood are technically north of I-70. DU and Miami are slightly south of I-70 while Air Force, CC and ASU are definitely south of it. Huntsville's hockey program met its final demise after the shortened 2020-21 season after a May 2020 fundraising saved it (briefly) from folding. This was due to our favorite aspect of college athletics.... conference reshuffling, which left UAH homeless, and conference affiliation was a requirement for the program's continuation.

The list of schools that sponsor 2 niche sports (hockey AND lacrosse) is expectedly small, especially when the women's side of it is added. 64 men's hockey programs, only 44 women's hockey programs. Of those 44 women's teams, 6 of them don't sponsor D1 MEN'S hockey. We're down to 38 schools in the entire country offering men's AND women's D1 hockey. Of those 38, 9 of them are DII or DIII in all other sports, so we're down to 29 schools before even overlaying the men's and women's lacrosse Venn diagrams.

[KnightoftheRedFlash]

Not as an athletic program. Finished 223rd of 261 schools in the NACDA/Learfield Cup, just ahead of Alabama State

Every small mid-major would trade their success for what St. Mary's has accomplished in basketball in an instance.

A well-rounded athletic department is nice but high-level CBB success trumps winning titles in XC, lacrosse, rowing, etc.

[centraljerseycat]

is there any Division I school that dropped football and became a better athletic program as a result? Can't think of any.

Well Villanova dropped football in '81, then won a basketball championship in '85 AND brought football back at a lower (but a better) level for a Catholic school not named Notre Dame.

[Reign of Terrier]

This is a good thread. A couple thoughts:

1) New England/Northeastern college sports lags behind the rest of the country because those areas are hyper-urbanized relative to the rest of the country and (as mentioned) care a lot more about pro sports. New York, Boston, Philadelphia. Heck, you could arguably throw in DC in there too. Urban areas like basketball more, presumably because it’s easier to find a gym or small court or hoop growing up than a field. It’s no coincidence that two of the best northeastern money making athletic programs are basketball teams in the suburbs of two of America’s biggest cities (UConn and Nova)

2) The other reason NE kinda sucks at college sports is because there’s just so many small colleges (many of them closing due to enrollment issues) which is inter-related with the other side of the problem which is, people are leaving the northeast. It’s a complicated question why, new englanders are more educated than the rest of the country on average so they have more employment options, i imagine housing regulations makes it harder to build housing relative to the sun belt (so cost of living goes up) and it’s colder year round. As a southerner, the last point is not a bad thing for me but it’s a noticeable preference for most people to prefer warmer climate. Finally, in these urban areas, they’re more likely to have immigrants who come from cultures that cares more about soccer than football. Like, the northeast population is dropping or stagnating, but the reason it doesn’t bottom out is because of immigration.

3) Given all of the above, northeastern college football teams are screwed, and it will just de-emphasize

4) The opportunity for college football is in the south

5) sorry great plains states, you’re kind of screwed too. People don’t realize that the counties wofford and furman reside in have more people than North Dakota. Anyway, those states are doing fine because they have more of a college football culture - which rises the tides of all athletic boats, but they have similar demographic problems as new england, but the difference is it’s a lot cheaper to live there, but there’s still less people and they have less immigrants. The comparative advantage that the state MVFC/BS schools have is that they have more resources than the rest of the FCS, but as soon as they jump up, they will be the itty bitty fish again. That’s why FCS football is so broken. The big 4 need to leave, but there’s no place to go that will suit them unless the P4 break off

6) Ditto on no one caring that much about titles not played in a handful of sports. Currently, Samford has maybe the best athletic departments in the socon, but you can count on three fingers how many socon championships they have in football and basketball, and so it doesn’t feel like it. That’s not me dunking on Samford, just a readily available example. Heck, before the Pac 12 basically died they would brag about having the most national championships in their advertising, because olympic sports were so great in the Pac12…but did it really feel that way ?

[caribbeanhen]

You don't even have to be a big state school. For these schools, it takes three things:

1. Add 22 scholarships;
2. Secure state appropriations and student fees to support travel; and
3. Booster support for the difference.

Why do they do it? Certainly not to win national titles. In the end, it gets them enrollment and heightened support from their state legislature for capital funding.

the absurdity of student fees at an Institiute of higher learning paying for players getting paid to travel to their games but not necessarily going to class....

[ElCid]

the absurdity of student fees at an Institiute of higher learning paying for players getting paid to travel to their games but not necessarily going to class....

It will eventually self destruct. Students will walk with their wallets.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Northeast college football was doomed when the CFA decided in 1977 to define Division I football, quite arbitrarily, to require certain attendance quotas and stadium size quotas, because that's what Joe Paterno thought college football was. Northeast schools in city or urbanish settings always had a disadvantage when it came to zoning and making the perfect suburban 30,000+ fan stadium (expandable) that Joe Paterno inadvertently incentivized to be created to remain Division I. Virginia Tech and tons of Southern schools with loads of cheap-ass real estate built those stadiums. Meanwhile, most of the Northeast schools that made it only did so through number fudging (Syracuse, Rutgers, Temple).

UConn's plan seemed pretty good at the time - a BCS conference in the Big East, Rentschler Field, the supposed future home of the Patriots, a great overall athletics program with hoops championships, and ESPN down the street. But they ditched their YankCon rivals to do it and circumstances outside their control cleaved the Big East in two, leaving them with the AAC, a poor fit all around. That's not what UConn signed up for. The Civil ConFliCT trophy epitomized the path they took - they took a change at abandoning local rivals, had a decent plan to thrive in Division I/FBS, and lost. That's how I saw it.

UMass on the other hand... didn't seem to have much of a plan to update McGuirk Stadium, had some sort of half-assed solution about sharing an NFL stadium part time far away... was in a conference for football-only in the MAC and promptly started to piss off their new conferencemates... not great.

Bottom line, though, it started with the CFA basically redefining college football into a vision that greatly benefiting their school profiles (semipro athletics, cheap real estate to make football palaces, pliable local government) and disadvantaging the Northeast school profiles. Some Northeast schools have tried, or forced themselves to adapt to that Southern vision, but none of them have really found success as programs, though they are getting paid handsomely for mostly sucking on the field.

[KnightoftheRedFlash]

When in doubt blame Paterno for everything instead of acknowledging most schools refused to evolve with the times.

Northeastern football died when most teams wanted to pretend it was 1955 in 1984 or act holier than thou art (Ivy League).

Paterno wanted to raise the bar. The Big East would still have football today if they followed his vision instead of squatting on basketball.

[DFW HOYA]

Paterno wanted to raise the bar. The Big East would still have football today if they followed his vision instead of squatting on basketball.

Except he didn't.

Joe Paterno had no interest in the Big East as an all-sports league: he saw the revenues Big East basketball was getting and saw it as an opportunity to get in on the show, given that Penn State basketball was moribund in Rec Hall. Remember, prior to the CFA case in 1984, there was no real TV money in football and thus Penn State didn't want to give up being an independent to play the likes of a UConn or a Villanova when he could play Alabama and Notre Dame. The Eastern 8 contained many of the I-A independents needed for an all-sports football league (Villanova, West Virginia, UMass, Pitt, Rutgers, later Temple) and yet he still didn't push for the E8 to add football.

The legitimate suspicion that he really wasn't serious about basketball, and that he could seek to push non-football schools out, led to him not getting the votes required.

[Sitting Bull]

Northeast college football was doomed when the CFA decided in 1977 to define Division I football, quite arbitrarily, to require certain attendance quotas and stadium size quotas, because that's what Joe Paterno thought college football was. Northeast schools in city or urbanish settings always had a disadvantage when it came to zoning and making the perfect suburban 30,000+ fan stadium (expandable) that Joe Paterno inadvertently incentivized to be created to remain Division I. Virginia Tech and tons of Southern schools with loads of cheap-ass real estate built those stadiums. Meanwhile, most of the Northeast schools that made it only did so through number fudging (Syracuse, Rutgers, Temple).

UConn's plan seemed pretty good at the time - a BCS conference in the Big East, Rentschler Field, the supposed future home of the Patriots, a great overall athletics program with hoops championships, and ESPN down the street. But they ditched their YankCon rivals to do it and circumstances outside their control cleaved the Big East in two, leaving them with the AAC, a poor fit all around. That's not what UConn signed up for. The Civil ConFliCT trophy epitomized the path they took - they took a change at abandoning local rivals, had a decent plan to thrive in Division I/FBS, and lost. That's how I saw it.

UMass on the other hand... didn't seem to have much of a plan to update McGuirk Stadium, had some sort of half-assed solution about sharing an NFL stadium part time far away... was in a conference for football-only in the MAC and promptly started to piss off their new conferencemates... not great.

Bottom line, though, it started with the CFA basically redefining college football into a vision that greatly benefiting their school profiles (semipro athletics, cheap real estate to make football palaces, pliable local government) and disadvantaging the Northeast school profiles. Some Northeast schools have tried, or forced themselves to adapt to that Southern vision, but none of them have really found success as programs, though they are getting paid handsomely for mostly sucking on the field.

Not sure what Virginia Tech has to do with this, or Paterno for that matter. Techs decision to build Lane Stadium began in 1963, a 35,000 seat stadium on campus. I don’t know what Paterno was doing in 1963 but I’m pretty sure he wasn’t influencing anyone’s plans, certainly not Virginia Tech.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Not sure what Virginia Tech has to do with this, or Paterno for that matter. Techs decision to build Lane Stadium began in 1963, a 35,000 seat stadium on campus. I don’t know what Paterno was doing in 1963 but I’m pretty sure he wasn’t influencing anyone’s plans, certainly not Virginia Tech.

Virginia Tech was an independent, the ACC were shunning them and football was a key to their program development. I believe they were angling to impress the ACC to have them join them. The ACC of course were members of the CFA, and Virginia Tech wanted to be involved so they weren't left behind. As it so happened, they fit Joe Paterno's definition of a Division I program.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Virginia Tech was an independent, the ACC were shunning them and football was a key to their program development. I believe they were angling to impress the ACC to have them join them. The ACC of course were members of the CFA, and Virginia Tech wanted to be involved so they weren't left behind. As it so happened, they fit Joe Paterno's definition of a Division I program.

You lost me on a couple things...
- What does this mean, "football was a key to their program development"? Do you mean institutional development? If that's the case I would agree to a point given the fact there is vetted evidence (degree debatable) that the success of football/men's basketball allows for university wide investment. The caveat being in Virginia Tech's case, it was/is an institution fairly comfortable in its skin due to a unique history. Despite time/social progression causing SOME degradation of Virginia Tech's pillars, the school has not deviated from its soul for the sake of athletic glory. I applaud that....

- Paterno might have felt his fellow Northeast 1-A programs were inferior or lacked the resources to elevate themselves to his personal standard yet PSU's greatest accomplishment since 1986 has been making more money relative to Syracuse, Pitt, West Virginia, etc. Following Penn State's 1986 national title, Syracuse went 11-0-1 and finished #4 in the country, West Virginia played Notre Dame for the 1988 National Title, then in 1993 West Virginia went 11-0 in the regular season only to be left out of the national title game while the following year 12-0 Penn State got shut out of a share. Since the 1994 Nittany Lion team, West Virginia in 2007 has come the closet of all of the former 1-A Northeast Independents to a national title. An argument can be made, in terms of national success, Penn State lost the most since the demise of Eastern Independence in the early 1990s.

- I, and others, have interpreted Paterno's frustration with the state of 1-A football in the Northeast resulting from the Ivy Leagues institutions as well as schools like Colgate, Holy Cross, perhaps Rutgers (stadium/competitive issues) not holding up their end of the bargain in ensuring the relevancy of "big time" college pigskin in the Northeast. I don't sense he had it out for West Virginia, Pitt, Syracuse and Boston College...maybe to a lesser extent Temple given our location and access to large stadiums (the Vet and Franklin Field). As Sitting Bull said, Virginia Tech was at most in the back of Paterno's mind with East Carolina. Both of those programs enjoyed success in their own little bubble in the 60s, 70s and 80s.

[Laker]

Back when I was in HS the Lambert Trophy was a big deal. Then I think Penn State either did or should have won it most years. I'll have to look up the winners- do they even award it anymore?

[Sitting Bull]

Virginia Tech was an independent, the ACC were shunning them and football was a key to their program development. I believe they were angling to impress the ACC to have them join them. The ACC of course were members of the CFA, and Virginia Tech wanted to be involved so they weren't left behind. As it so happened, they fit Joe Paterno's definition of a Division I program.

Yes, I grew up in Virginia and had a front row seat to the Hokies development. They had a mostly successful run as an independent in the 60s and 70s and built a huge fan following in the state. My question/point was Joe Paterno had nothing to do with Virginia Tech’s, their stadium or their rise to prominence.

Tech hired Bill Dooley from UNC in the late 70s which was huge at that time. The Tarheels had been previously plucking the best high school players out of Virginia, particularly Norfolk, until then. Dooley changed that and had the biggest impact on the eventual national profile development which led the Hokies into the ACC.

[Laker]

Tech hired Bill Dooley from UNC in the late 70s which was huge at that time. The Tarheels had been previously plucking the best high school players out of Virginia, particularly Norfolk, until then. Dooley changed that and had the biggest impact on the eventual national profile development which led the Hokies into the ACC.

Was he the one who got rid of the Gobblers nickname? They used to have one painted on the stadium. That is what they called them when I was in HS.

[DFW HOYA]

Back when I was in HS the Lambert Trophy was a big deal. Then I think Penn State either did or should have won it most years. I'll have to look up the winners- do they even award it anymore?

The Lambert awards were originally run by a group of New York sportswriters and later the New Jersey Sports and Exposition Authority. It seems to have gone defunct in 2022. The FBS awards fell into some mediocrity when it expanded the reach outside the Northeast to programs such as West Virginia and Louisville.

The last Lambert Trophy winner from the Ivy League was Dartmouth in 1970.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambert-Meadowlands_Trophy#Lambert_Trophy_winners

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Eastern 1-A Independence was riddled with nuances that I simply don't desire to get into. I'll quickly add that there was clearly a cultural/regional alliance between the influential Northeast Independents (PSU, Pitt, WVU, Syracuse, Boston College) and the influential Southern Independents (Miami, Florida State, South Carolina, and to a lesser extent, ECU, Virginia Tech). There was also a strong relationship forged between Miami and Florida State and the prominent football schools in the Northeast/Midwest in the 1970s and 1980s. Both of them loved to play Big 10 schools early in the year.

[Sitting Bull]

Back when I was in HS the Lambert Trophy was a big deal. Then I think Penn State either did or should have won it most years. I'll have to look up the winners- do they even award it anymore?

They had a large Turkey sign in the end zone that used to light up and gobble when they scored. That along with the Gobblers nickname disappeared around the time Dooley came in.

The Hokies biggest rival during the 60s and 70s was West Virginia. That was based on their previous relationship as Southern Conference rivals until the early/mid 60s. Tech also played UR, UVA, W&M and VMI annually until about 1980. The other annual games during that time were Florida State, Kentucky and South Carolina.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Yes, I grew up in Virginia and had a front row seat to the Hokies development. They had a mostly successful run as an independent in the 60s and 70s and built a huge fan following in the state. My question/point was Joe Paterno had nothing to do with Virginia Tech’s, their stadium or their rise to prominence.

Tech hired Bill Dooley from UNC in the late 70s which was huge at that time. The Tarheels had been previously plucking the best high school players out of Virginia, particularly Norfolk, until then. Dooley changed that and had the biggest impact on the eventual national profile development which led the Hokies into the ACC.

He did, but not directly. Paterno had a vision about what a Division I football program was, and Virginia Tech fit that description. Before Paterno and the CFA, the definitions were loose. After they were done, they (the CFA, Paterno their spokesman) forced out the other schools due to grudges (the Ivies, maybe Colgate, maybe W&M) and money (they didn't want to share their money with Villanova, Richmond or UMass). Virginia Tech met the D-I-A requirements and could not be denied.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

This is a good video to reflect Virginia Tech's place in college football in1981. Hokie football feels "big time" in terms of the visual vibes, but looking at the schedule reflects a program focused on regional success first and foremost. I find it interesting Virginia Tech lost their only network broadcast in 1981, falling to then rival VMI in a 6-0 slugfest on ABC.


https://youtu.be/FNeHb-IX0sM

[NY Crusader 2010]

Every small mid-major would trade their success for what St. Mary's has accomplished in basketball in an instance.

A well-rounded athletic department is nice but high-level CBB success trumps winning titles in XC, lacrosse, rowing, etc.

100%. St. Mary's is probably the best example of a school who dropped football and saw a marked jump in Men's Basketball afterwards. You could kind of say the same for Pacific but they were sort of a flash in the pan. They did parlay their 1 or 2 March Madness runs into an invite to the prestigious WCC though, so I guess that's something.

And of course there's Wichita State.

[NY Crusader 2010]

This is a good video to reflect Virginia Tech's place in college football in1981. Hokie football feels "big time" in terms of the visual vibes, but looking at the schedule reflects a program focused on regional success first and foremost. I find it interesting Virginia Tech lost their only network broadcast in 1981, falling to then rival VMI in a 6-0 slugfest on ABC.


https://youtu.be/FNeHb-IX0sM

Virginia Tech-VMI used to the the end of season rivalry game. Maryland and Virginia played each other rivalry week until mid 1980's I think. Pre-Big East, Virginia Tech athletically was probably today's equivalent of App State or East Carolina.

[Sitting Bull]

I guess you had to be there to fully appreciate it but Tech was fielding major college football vibes going back to the mid 60s. They went to the Liberty Bowl twice - this was when there were literally about 8 bowls - it was a big deal. They lost to Miami FL 14-7 in 1966 and to Ole Miss 34-17 in 1968. They beat Florida State in their first televised game mid 60s in Lane Stadium. I remember the hype and excitement in Virginia in 1969 when they kicked off the season against Alabama, losing a bruising game 14-7. This was not an ECU or App State program. They were the states big time program and still are.

The rub was that Tech played UR, VMI and W&M annually through the 70s. They would inexplicably lose it seems to one of them each year though to be fair, VMI had a pretty solid program through the 70s - as did UR and W&M. When Dooley showed up, he was the catalyst to remove the other state teams off Techs schedule. Then the split of 1AA basically took care of the issue.

[caribbeanhen]

I guess you had to be there to fully appreciate it but Tech was fielding major college football vibes going back to the mid 60s. They went to the Liberty Bowl twice - this was when there were literally about 8 bowls - it was a big deal. They lost to Miami FL 14-7 in 1966 and to Ole Miss 34-17 in 1968. They beat Florida State in their first televised game mid 60s in Lane Stadium. I remember the hype and excitement in Virginia in 1969 when they kicked off the season against Alabama, losing a bruising game 14-7. This was not an ECU or App State program. They were the states big time program and still are.

The rub was that Tech played UR, VMI and W&M annually through the 70s. They would inexplicably lose it seems to one of them each year though to be fair, VMI had a pretty solid program through the 70s - as did UR and W&M. When Dooley showed up, he was the catalyst to remove the other state teams off Techs schedule. Then the split of 1AA basically took care of the issue.

when did Polytech become Virginia Tech?

[Sitting Bull]

when did Polytech become Virginia Tech?

It was always Virginia Tech during my memory starting in the 60s even though officially it was VPI. It’s probably related to the school evolving into a larger coed, state university during that time - in the 50s and prior, the Corp I think dominated as it was referred to as VPI.

The Corps similar to Texas A&M is still a piece of Virginia Tech though a minor one now in numbers. The Corps though I think was and remains a distinct base of Virginia Tech pride and loyalty. Tech is one of the only Universities that has two bands as a result of this - the Highty Tighties were THE band at Tech (the Corps band) and the much larger Marching Virginians band came in around the early 80s. They sit at opposite ends of Lane Stadium. If you ever go to a game at Tech, it’s worth going in early to see the Highty Tighties entrance which I think remains the tradition there.

[Sitting Bull]

https://youtu.be/exkppUceBa4?feature=shared

It’s a rare thing - a large state university with a band and corps march-on for every game. This is really the root of Hokie spirit and tradition and I think what’s makes Tech so popular and distinct in the Commonwealth of Virginia.

[caribbeanhen]

It was always Virginia Tech during my memory starting in the 60s even though officially it was VPI. It’s probably related to the school evolving into a larger coed, state university during that time - in the 50s and prior, the Corp I think dominated as it was referred to as VPI.

The Corps similar to Texas A&M is still a piece of Virginia Tech though a minor one now in numbers. The Corps though I think was and remains a distinct base of Virginia Tech pride and loyalty. Tech is one of the only Universities that has two bands as a result of this - the Highty Tighties were THE band at Tech (the Corps band) and the much larger Marching Virginians band came in around the early 80s. They sit at opposite ends of Lane Stadium. If you ever go to a game at Tech, it’s worth going in early to see the Highty Tighties entrance which I think remains the tradition there.

thanks

I asked because my grandmother always told us your grandfather, who was dead long before I was even born, went to Virgina Poly Tech. I went many years into adulthood before I made the connection that it was the same as Virgina Tech. Turns out I have a cousin that has a boat named "Hokie Time".

ok back to the future now, beat Stony today and if anyone from The Burg is driving to the game, leave early as the traffic will be horrible

[Sitting Bull]

I’m sure there was a lot of pride in that. It’s the Hokie way,

Sorry to deflect the thread so I’ll offer an opinion on the thread.

UMass

[KnightoftheRedFlash]

This is a good video to reflect Virginia Tech's place in college football in1981. Hokie football feels "big time" in terms of the visual vibes, but looking at the schedule reflects a program focused on regional success first and foremost. I find it interesting Virginia Tech lost their only network broadcast in 1981, falling to then rival VMI in a 6-0 slugfest on ABC.


https://youtu.be/FNeHb-IX0sM

VMI's last winning season until the spring campaign of 2021.

[SU DOG]

I may be off thread also, but I have only seen one Virginia Tech Game in person. They were at FSU and the main thing I remember is how I enjoyed the Marching Virginians' Tuba Section performing the Hokey Pokey. That was my highlight of the game and unfortunately for Va Tech might have been theirs also. I guess you have to see those tubas do it in person, as I have yet to find a decent video. BTW, according to my wife she had relatives that went to Virginia Tech, and she still pulls for that team.

[FUBeAR]

when did Polytech become Virginia Tech?
Small thing, but FUBeAR is always a stickler for 100% accuracy, y’know…

Virginia Tech (VT), officially the Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University (VPI)

[KnightoftheRedFlash]

You lost me on a couple things...
- What does this mean, "football was a key to their program development"? Do you mean institutional development? If that's the case I would agree to a point given the fact there is vetted evidence (degree debatable) that the success of football/men's basketball allows for university wide investment. The caveat being in Virginia Tech's case, it was/is an institution fairly comfortable in its skin due to a unique history. Despite time/social progression causing SOME degradation of Virginia Tech's pillars, the school has not deviated from its soul for the sake of athletic glory. I applaud that....

- Paterno might have felt his fellow Northeast 1-A programs were inferior or lacked the resources to elevate themselves to his personal standard yet PSU's greatest accomplishment since 1986 has been making more money relative to Syracuse, Pitt, West Virginia, etc. Following Penn State's 1986 national title, Syracuse went 11-0-1 and finished #4 in the country, West Virginia played Notre Dame for the 1988 National Title, then in 1993 West Virginia went 11-0 in the regular season only to be left out of the national title game while the following year 12-0 Penn State got shut out of a share. Since the 1994 Nittany Lion team, West Virginia in 2007 has come the closet of all of the former 1-A Northeast Independents to a national title. An argument can be made, in terms of national success, Penn State lost the most since the demise of Eastern Independence in the early 1990s.

- I, and others, have interpreted Paterno's frustration with the state of 1-A football in the Northeast resulting from the Ivy Leagues institutions as well as schools like Colgate, Holy Cross, perhaps Rutgers (stadium/competitive issues) not holding up their end of the bargain in ensuring the relevancy of "big time" college pigskin in the Northeast. I don't sense he had it out for West Virginia, Pitt, Syracuse and Boston College...maybe to a lesser extent Temple given our location and access to large stadiums (the Vet and Franklin Field). As Sitting Bull said, Virginia Tech was at most in the back of Paterno's mind with East Carolina. Both of those programs enjoyed success in their own little bubble in the 60s, 70s and 80s.

The 1994 Penn State team should claim a national title. It highlights the arbitrariness of FBS football that Michigan and Nebraska shared in 1997 but 1994 can't be split between the Cornhuskers and Nittany Lions.

Exactly. Paterno realized the other sections of the country progressed with the times and advanced their football programs while the Northeast preferred to reside in ivory towers and refuse to evolve. Those soon-to-be left behind schools wanted to continue 1950s style existence under the guise of purity. (As if college football was ever pure). Big time football died in the Northeast because the standard bearers retreated from the field of battle while lobbing potshots at the programs who continued the good fight.

[FUBeAR]

VMI's last winning season until the spring campaign of 2021.
#47 Tailback for VMI in that video was FUBeAR’s HS Teammate and good friend. FUBeAR took him along with FUBeAR on FUBeAR’s Official Visit to FU … and begged the FU Coaches to offer him. Coach Baker (HC @ Furman, CIT, and ECU) told FUBeAR, “I tell ya, FUBeAR, we have all the 5-11, 167 pound Tailbacks we need here.”

In his 1st game against FU, he gained 246 yards on 39 carries and scored all 3 of VMI’s TD’s.
3x All-SoCon, All-American, VA PoY, VMI HoF, Senior Bowl, USFL

Coach shoulda listened to FUBeAR, huh?

[jajfitz]

thanks

I asked because my grandmother always told us your grandfather, who was dead long before I was even born, went to Virgina Poly Tech. I went many years into adulthood before I made the connection that it was the same as Virgina Tech. Turns out I have a cousin that has a boat named "Hokie Time".

ok back to the future now, beat Stony today and if anyone from The Burg is driving to the game, leave early as the traffic will be horrible


I'm 60 and have followed college sports since my teens. I knew it as VPI till almost thirty.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I'm 60 and have followed college sports since my teens. I knew it as VPI till almost thirty.

It was still referred to as VPI in the late 80s, early 90s by some of the older guard on TV.

[DFW HOYA]

It was still referred to as VPI in the late 80s, early 90s by some of the older guard on TV.

And they should still be the Fighting Gobblers.

[NY Crusader 2010]

The 1994 Penn State team should claim a national title. It highlights the arbitrariness of FBS football that Michigan and Nebraska shared in 1997 but 1994 can't be split between the Cornhuskers and Nittany Lions.

Exactly. Paterno realized the other sections of the country progressed with the times and advanced their football programs while the Northeast preferred to reside in ivory towers and refuse to evolve. Those soon-to-be left behind schools wanted to continue 1950s style existence under the guise of purity. (As if college football was ever pure). Big time football died in the Northeast because the standard bearers retreated from the field of battle while lobbing potshots at the programs who continued the good fight.

Split titles occurred when voters in different polls each picked a different #1 team.

[NY Crusader 2010]

They had a large Turkey sign in the end zone that used to light up and gobble when they scored. That along with the Gobblers nickname disappeared around the time Dooley came in.

The Hokies biggest rival during the 60s and 70s was West Virginia. That was based on their previous relationship as Southern Conference rivals until the early/mid 60s. Tech also played UR, UVA, W&M and VMI annually until about 1980. The other annual games during that time were Florida State, Kentucky and South Carolina.

Would Virginia Tech of the Southern Conference have been considered the flagship college football program in the state ca. 1965 or 1970 or would it have been the University of Virginia of the ACC? Also did UVA and Tech play each other every year back then?

[caribbeanhen]

I'm 60 and have followed college sports since my teens. I knew it as VPI till almost thirty.

cool, I'm 62 and my frame of reference for Virgina Poly Tech was circa 1925, that's when my abuelo went. I don't actually remember much about Poly Tech football until Micheal Vick showed up and by that time it was known as Virginia Tech

[Sitting Bull]

Would Virginia Tech of the Southern Conference have been considered the flagship college football program in the state ca. 1965 or 1970 or would it have been the University of Virginia of the ACC? Also did UVA and Tech play each other every year back then?

UVA was not a serious factor in the 60s or 70s in Virginia or within the ACC (which was a 7 team league then) - In fact there were a number of years in there where the Cavaliers were the worst team in the state - behind Tech, W&M, UR and VMI. Tech and UVA had not really built a year ending rivalry either - that didn’t become a big thing until the 80s. Football at UVA was a social event. Football at Tech was an athletic event.

Things changed when UVA hired George Welsh in the early 80s - but even as he built some good teams, Tech would more often than not smoke them at the last game which became the Commonwealth Cup.

[CHIP72]

Semi-OT comment (I'm not sure where this fits otherwise, it doesn't merit its own thread at the moment, and it's rumor mill material) - there is some scuttlebutt on the D2 Football board that St. Francis (PA) may be toying with the notion of moving their athletic program down to D2 and joining the PSAC (the athletic conference for most D2 programs in Pennsylvania), based on comments made a week ago by Jack Benedict, the long-time IUP football and basketball PBP announcer and sports director at WCCS radio in Indiana, PA, during the IUP football weekly coach's show. (Benedict has been at WCCS and an announcer for IUP for a long time; he was there when I was a grad student at IUP in the late 1990s and he'd had been there awhile at that point. He's well-connected to goings on in the PSAC.) St. Francis would functionally replace Mercyhurst, who moved up to D1 this year, if that move did occur.

Again, not saying this move will happen or is likely to happen, but there is at least a little talk it is being considered.

[DFW HOYA]

SF(PA) has a $17 million athletic program for a school of 1,490. The Red Flash average 2,208 in football and 596 per game in men's basketball.

A quote from its president in an Oct. 3 interview with the student newspaper:

Q. Athletics plays a very important role in the University’s enrollment model, but it is also very expensive to operate an NCAA Division I program that sponsors 23 sports. Looking ahead, if economic conditions in higher education worsen, would SFU consider dropping down to Division II or Division III? Or dropping sports?


Father Malachi: It’s something we should always be evaluating – just like academic programs. We work to ensure that the money spent on athletics is spent efficiently and that athletes are receiving the quality experience they deserve. However, it’s an expensive operation and there are many unknowns. We don’t know what the future of the NCAA looks like, particularly how Division I may be redefined. If the NCAA were to make changes, we’d have to reassess and determine what’s best for the institution. For now, we’re committed to staying Division I unless those rules change. In the meantime, we have a responsibility to spend money efficiently to provide student-athletes with the best athletic experience possible.

https://troubadour.francis.edu/5003/news/a-conversation-with-the-president-2/

[KnightoftheRedFlash]

Semi-OT comment (I'm not sure where this fits otherwise, it doesn't merit its own thread at the moment, and it's rumor mill material) - there is some scuttlebutt on the D2 Football board that St. Francis (PA) may be toying with the notion of moving their athletic program down to D2 and joining the PSAC (the athletic conference for most D2 programs in Pennsylvania), based on comments made a week ago by Jack Benedict, the long-time IUP football and basketball PBP announcer and sports director at WCCS radio in Indiana, PA, during the IUP football weekly coach's show. (Benedict has been at WCCS and an announcer for IUP for a long time; he was there when I was a grad student at IUP in the late 1990s and he'd had been there awhile at that point. He's well-connected to goings on in the PSAC.) St. Francis would functionally replace Mercyhurst, who moved up to D1 this year, if that move did occur.

Again, not saying this move will happen or is likely to happen, but there is at least a little talk it is being considered.

I haven't heard anything but I could see the IUP announcer knowing something.

It is inexcusable if it happens. But if it does occur, it is solely due to the presidents and the current AD for mismanging the university.

If the program drops to Division II or III, my fandom is in question.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I take this to mean "the second athletes unionize and become employees, we're going to D2". And they will not be alone if/when that happens.

[mvfcfan]

It's got to be UMASS. They went from being a respectable 1AA program to a complete laughing stock.

[Bisonoline]

It's got to be UMASS. They went from being a respectable 1AA program to a complete laughing stock.

Yep. Wasnt there an Idaho program as well?

[grizband]

It's got to be UMASS. They went from being a respectable 1AA program to a complete laughing stock.


Yep. Wasnt there an Idaho program as well?
Yes, but Idaho corrected that move several years ago in returning to FCS/the Big Sky conference.

[Go...gate]

Hofstra comes to mind.

[bonarae]

Hofstra comes to mind.

Which ex-FCS dropping the program outright is closer to Pacific's decision of the same? BU? Hofstra? Northeastern?

Athletic program wise, I think you nailed it with Hofstra closely equalling the Pacific Tigers. BU and Northeastern have ice hockey to fall back on, even then. xpeacex

[Sitting Bull]

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/qZyCAtFnOTg/sddefault.jpg

I had forgotten about Pacific but I don’t believe they were ever FCS. I thought they were in the Big West with Fresno, San Jose, etc. A couple of other members in that league also shuttered their programs; Cal State Fullerton and Long Beach State.

Pacific’s Alonzo Stagg stadium was a 30,000 seat field. It has since been demolished.

[bonarae]

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/qZyCAtFnOTg/sddefault.jpg

I had forgotten about Pacific but I don’t believe they were ever FCS. I thought they were in the Big West with Fresno, San Jose, etc. A couple of other members in that league also shuttered their programs; Cal State Fullerton and Long Beach State.

Pacific’s Alonzo Stagg stadium was a 30,000 seat field. It has since been demolished.

They were never FCS but they were the last I-A to stop football before the FXS subdivision name change in 2005 or 2006. Fortunately Fullerton and the Beach have other sports to fall back on, especially baseball (though UC Irvine and UCSB have eclipsed them in the Big West baseball world in recent years). The other CSUs without football aren't as blessed as the two.

Only five CSUs sponsor football today, all in D-I, and are committed to sponsoring it (from what I see):

FBS
Fresno
San Diego
San Jose

FCS
Cal Poly
Sacramento

[NY Crusader 2010]

Hofstra comes to mind.

Total Men's Basketball NCAA Appearances since dropping football in 2009 -- ZERO. They did get hosed during COVID winning the 2020 CAA Tournament and presumed NCAA auto-bid, but of course that was the end of the season. Same thing happened to BU -- they've only won the Patriot League MBB tournament once since joining in 2012, and it was March 2020 when they upset Colgate.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Total Men's Basketball NCAA Appearances since dropping football in 2009 -- ZERO. They did get hosed during COVID winning the 2020 CAA Tournament and presumed NCAA auto-bid, but of course that was the end of the season. Same thing happened to BU -- they've only won the Patriot League MBB tournament once since joining in 2012, and it was March 2020 when they upset Colgate.

Literally days later everything got shut down. It was like the second to last postseason conference (BU with Patriot League winning) to be completed (I think without fans in attendance if I remember right).